Best Athletes Mafia (Abandoned)

[ProsecutorGodot]

VOTE: Benmage just because I can. And because you have no avatar, you naked player, you.

[ProsecutorGodot]

UNVOTE: Benmage

Even a random vote needs to come off the pressure-tested town.

VOTE: Stephoscope

Next in line. How ironic your name is partially based on a tool used to examine the heart.

[ProsecutorGodot]

A stethoscope is used to hear someone's heartbeat, to examine their heart, if you will. Now, I have chosen to test Stephoscope's.

As for Ben, I don't think we should lend the scum a hand and accelerate a doomed townie's demise. If someone put a vig in D1/N1, Ben's the most obvious target to put to the ultimate scum test: death. If he isn't scum, he's probably gonna get NKed. No use wasting D1 to kill him.

I don't see anything wrong with DrRoy's response or with what he did for reaction testing. Ben's claim was highly unwarranted--I just random-voted him and he claimed like we were about to hammer him. Definite scumtell, but then he went on to ask "What should I have claimed?" That made it all too tempting to string him up right now. For all we know, he could be vengeful townie D1 and wants us to let him shoot.

[ProsecutorGodot]

I don't think I understand what you're saying here.
-Scum will NK me. Okay. Whats with the vig thing?
-You found my response to you voting me a scumtell...interesting. And my response about my statement is even scummier, making you want to lynch me even more so..?

Do I have that correct?

If whoever the vig is doesn't believe you, they can just shoot you. Unless they got a better power and have that out instead. Your response at the time was completely unforced. I don't want to lynch you at all now because even you acknowledge scum will NK you for your first two posts. Why waste our lynch on someone who will die anyway? It was worth a good laugh, though. Someone put it in the QuoteBook once this game's over.

I think KMD's claim is odd as well, though I'm taking him for scum more solidly now. He claims SK and wants to help us out? Even when he doesn't share our win condition? He says he'll pick off the scum, but whichever way WIFOM takes us (what if he busses his partners vs what if he just still kills town) doesn't help us out should we accept his offer. Plus, he pinned DrRoy as scum and his reason is based on a perfectly natural response to a page 1 claim. I can only think of one good reason for this type of behavior (though it may just still be me getting used to larger games).

UNVOTE: Stephoscope (though we really should hear from you soon)

VOTE: KMD

[ProsecutorGodot]

I dont think KMD's athletes were even in the list by the way, pretty sure it was a joke.

BS2, I get four kills every third night. Obviously, that's Artest and I use him first. Gonna be a bloody night.

And I'm pretty sure KMD's just BS'ing. Very poorly, at that, since there is no Ron Artest on the list. Or Terrell Owens. Or George Brett. And what kind of power gives someone four simultaneous faction kills? If this is a joke, I'm not finding it funny. Either way, there's one reason to do this, and OnceAndForEver has demonstrated KMD's goal in this move.

@Ben: Sorry, I meant second and third. "Why would you vote for town?" "What was I supposed to claim?" Easy pickings for whoever wants to take the shot.

[ProsecutorGodot]

I'll lay out a drroy case some time tomorrow or Saturday.

Why not now? Why not when you said the DrRoy wagon looked good?

(P-edit: Nevermind.) As for jokes, the first one was worth a laugh, but I think that phase has since ended. KMD's trick is working, it seems--everyone is saying "Heh, he's just joking, why so serious, man" so we'll look the other way. I'm saying there could be more motive to a joke than to make the audience laugh.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Backing away from your accusation before kmd even responds doesn't convince me that you are town.]

He had a chance to respond.

Definitely liking the drroy wagon.

I'll lay out a drroy case some time tomorrow or Saturday.

It is the exact opposite; I was going to come down from the KMD wagon until he said that. He will be gone a real-life day or two "building his case." Sounds more like "wait for me until I can come back with detailed excuses to lynch DrRoy," which doesn't help us. He could have given us at least one reason for a DrRoy wagon so we could speculate on that while he waits for a good chance to give us all the details.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Hmm...reading KMD's argument and DrRoy's counter, as well as ISOing DrRoy, KMD does bring up some strong points. I'm getting this general idea of what DrRoy is saying:

"Keep an eye on KMD, look at everyone else, but right now I'm hopping on your wagon and think you need everyone's undivided attention."

Double standards aren't scummy, but KMD has laid out likely reasons for setting one. It sounds like scum finding someone new to push now that people are coming down from a wagon you would have loved to ride to the gallows. Anything to prove you're town. Even appeasing to your wagon's biggest advocate (and still bringing up the SK claim)

UNVOTE: KMD

VOTE: DrRoy

However, those are possibilities. I still think DrRoy very well could have made natural town comments, but KMD brings up points that give me doubts about him. The vote I place now is not to outright say "Yeah, right, die scum!" It's more to allow all of us a better position to question DrRoy and start piecing together some more solid evidence.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Those seem good enough reasons to convince me to join that wagon now. I can see the truth in the 'angry troll, do not listen' comment though.

I don't see how someone would feel a need to announce they're desensitized to such comments, though. That seemed like he took a cue (whether Steph dropped it intentionally or not) to say that when he realized his slip.

I went back and looked. I ended up just glossing over what OnceAndForEver said (which was basically exactly "for sure, Kmd is town because no scum would say anything like that") because the way he said it flipped the subconscious switch in my brain that says "angry troll, don't listen" that I have developed from reading internet comment sections.

Now that I read the post carefully

, I see what he said. I have learned my lesson.

Shouldn't this have happened already if he's looking for scum? YouTube comment sections are a different realm from MafiaScum since words are often carefully chosen here. There's more to look for than "is this guy trolling or is he really calling me out?" The fact that Once placed his vote for DrRoy before said comment shouldn't change much of anything about it. If subconscious switches flip, ask yourself "Why does this post have that sort of effect on me?" The reasons may check out alright, but there can be times when there is an ulterior motive. Even if DrRoy has been prodded, I'm putting this thought out there now in case he does come back.

[ProsecutorGodot]

There is much to go over before someone hangs (despite that I dont think it should be roy).

We have two weeks to go over it. Where do we go from here if we have much to look at?

DrRoy, you mentioned three people that have acted off. Out of them, who do you see as the scummiest and why?

@Trevor: I'm filing DDD as null. ISOing him, he started off looking a bit too certain that Ben was town, but reacted well to Steph's comment. It doesn't help us to have someone straddle the fence to the degree of not voting. However, I don't quite think we should stop the DrRoy wagon to turn around and put one on Steph just yet. All it takes is the proper amount of pressure for us to extract the truth. Again, we have two weeks if no one hammers. Plenty of time to use what we will get from pursuing this line of questioning to check into someone else.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Who else do you like for scum?

I'd like either Bub or IS. Their exchange makes me want to look into them some more. I don't like how their talk ended up becoming one guy daring the other to cast a vote. I think one of them is trying to provoke a scummy reaction for the other to start a wagon, but I'll have to look back at them some more before I can get a better guess at who's fishing for what.

I could live with a Once wagon for pressure. He wanted DrRoy to die, but was worried about how quickly his wish was coming true? I think we should hear more about his unvote (though I don't know if the mod will count it since it's not bolded) when he comes back with enough time for a post. He had some decent points on Roy and looked to have his heart set on this lynch. There's nothing to find other than he would try to ISO Cheery (185) after Post 127, his self-proclaimed real post on DrRoy. I find that too strange to suddenly step down like that.

So, Once, why get off the DrRoy wagon now? What is it about Cheery that catches your attention more than DrRoy?

[ProsecutorGodot]

Homework assignment @all

: Assume today ended with DDD voting and myself hammering Drroy. I am Nk'd. Both DrRoy and I flip town. What do you do tomorrow/who do you accuse/attack?

I'd consider either a Once or KMD wagon as both have been big supporters for a DrRoy lynch since we got out of RVS. I have a hunch about DDD as he was quick to write off Ben as town, but I'd consider leaning him town if this situation comes true. But in this question, you also assume that only you and DrRoy will die in this first phase. Keep in mind we don't have proof that a third party exists right now.

You also run on the conclusion that DrRoy cannot, in any way, possibly be this third party should it exist. I would like to know how you conclude that he must be town if he isn't in the primary scum group.

[ProsecutorGodot]

So you think we'll find the scum amongst the lynch leaders and not the sheep? Is there a reason why you think we would be more likely to find them there and not holding the coattails of a town fuelled mislynch?

Also off the wagon we have your scum reads of Bub and IS mentioned in #205, are you not going to attack them?

I also don't see this conclusion that DrRoy cannot be third party from that question. All it asked is that we assume he flipped town, an assumption is not a definite conclusion, if it were the case, then wouldn't it also be concluded that he can't be scum?
Can you explain why by posting that question, Ben has concluded to the possibility of him not being a third party?

I will use the line Roy mentioned in #75, "You're getting dangerously close to speaking in absolutes."

1) The current meta, as I understand it, is that we find most scum in the middle of a mislynch, and therefore, the heaviest scumhunting efforts go toward every player between the driver and the hammerer. Why not consider working against that meta just to throw us for a loop? Why not present the obvious choice if we will likely write it off as a wrong choice?

2) My thoughts right now are that we keep the pressure on DrRoy. It's not a bad thing that there's a wagon going on him at this stage. Comments and reads about someone not in this kind of spotlight, in my experience, tend to get lost until later phases, when it's probably too late. As I said earlier, my vote is one to generate pressure. Whether or not we lynch Roy, we can still get valuable information that we can use later. Heck, even now, we're getting several reads and reactions from Ben, who insists we not lynch him.

3) Even with Ben's hypothetical question, he later goes on to say,

You can't think outside the box with some forethought to look at who else could be scum...(now)...

instead of waiting to see roy and myself flip town? Might open your eyes before a mislynch.

And he's not dangerously close to speaking in absolutes if he's already there? If Roy was town, I would expect he'd be questioning this line of defense more. And I find it strange that he has kept buddying DrRoy in light of what's developed. I could understand if he was arguing for himself, but he does so for himself AND Roy.

Roy is not scum.

^This guys town...stop voting him.

I understand that it is a hypothetical question, one based in self-proclaimed fact and orders to us that don't appear to have enough basis to warrant stopping. I posed a question in return. Again, it's hypothetical, but I don't think the town's ultimate success is part of a third party's plan if one is out there. I just wanted to know what Ben's case would be against Roy having a contrary win condition.

Ben could just be telling us all this and talking as he is since at least he and I have the impression that he will die N1. He might be buddying Roy to be able to say "I knew it" if we mislynch so he can get townpoints should he live to see D2. The best way to see which one it is about Ben is to keep the pressure up on his buddy and see to what lengths he'll go to defend him.

Nice catch BS2000! I went back and iso'd the mod. Kmd has had double voting power the entire day, which basically mod confirms him as a day 1 double voter.

I don't know how useful that is, given that alignment and roles are rolled independently if I remember correctly, but we should keep that in mind

.

I also note how he says he didn't realize KMD has double voting power today. While BS2000's comment seemed legitimate, I'm not so sure about Roy basically saying "Wait, he can do that? Oh, he can!" It sounds a bit fearful to me. I noticed it earlier in the game, but I didn't think it was such a big deal that I had to bring it up. I think Roy brought that up to appease KMD. Not only is he leading the wagon, he has 2 votes. KMD looks to him to the most important person on his wagon. Take him off and the wagon comes to a halt.

[ProsecutorGodot]

If Roy flips town, I would consider Bub and IS, yes. Their little skirmish just seemed out-of-place. L-2 for someone else isn't exactly the time to get into a fight that is possibly a distancing facade. I wouldn't mind a wagon on either of them whether or not Roy's falls through. But as I am in favor of taking action one step at a time, I've laid out reasons to believe Roy is scum and concur with others on their points. The Bub/IS connection will be a point to come back to, but for now, pressure makes diamonds. Even if we mislynch, it's D1. We will gain a solid bit of evidence to start looking back at players in a new light and try again.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Prosecutor, why does DrRoy have to be town for Bub and IS to be distancing?

My thought is that they chose a time when they knew most of us would be focusing on a wagon, whether or not we're on it, in the hopes that their argument would get lost in the wagon hype. Should Roy flip town, I would consider a wagon for either of them because I think they knew getting on and finishing the wagon is dangerous, so to cover that base, they give us other scum reads to express no interest in wielding the hammer or even put Roy at L-1, which is basically calling for someone to hammer.

Now that I think about it, the possibility is just as strong if Roy flips scum. At least one of them would know their scumbuddy was in trouble, so they picked a fight with someone else, someone off the wagon, in order to get us to look the other way long enough for them to hatch a scheme to slip by while they and their scumbuddies take out those they need gone at night. The question is in finding which one of them has scum motives to pick a fight at L-2.

[ProsecutorGodot]

If they are distancing, both of them would have to be scum, but at the same time, one of them could just be picking the fight to make it look like distancing. Should the true scum go first, he lines the other up for the lynch. If the townie dies first, the scum who fought with him might get some flak and a wagon, but would likely be able to prove it was town infighting.

Both of them have since moved on from just digging at each other to providing points and neither of them placed votes on each other, though. In fact, IS hasn't voted at all since the start of the game, but his comment on why checks out okay to me.

I dont just sling votes for the hell of it. Votes arent just suspicion markers. They are the tools of my judgment. When Bubs is definitely labeled as scum and deserved a lynching death, then he gets my vote.

I've got some hunch that this fight is something more than townies at each other's throats. It's just hard for me to tell who, if not both of them, had scum motives to do this. Both of them seemed careful not to be sucked into a vote purely to spite the other. But why? It's nagging at me, but why?

Anyone else have any thoughts about that exchange between Bub and IS? From what I read, it started at Post 163 when IS said his scummiest read was Bub. ISOing both of them, they seem null-leaning-town who just went at each other for a few posts, but maybe someone else can help out with a fresh perspective.

[ProsecutorGodot]

I've placed my suspicions on both. Since IS claims he'll have his bearings next time he posts, I'll see about what he has to say before I can lend weight to either one's scumminess (or lack thereof.) Not much has changed on my hunch or how I think DrRoy is scum since...well, there hasn't been quite as much reason put out there to believe different. I know everyone has their own reasons if any, I'm just saying I have hopes we'll be able to finish our discussion in a timely manner, for the deadline approaches.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Honestly, while I see a valid case on Steph, I still think the Roy lynch is the way to go. Or at least his slot if he doesn't ever come back. He's been gone for almost 5 days. That looks like he's getting away now while his wagon isn't moving forward.

Also, I don't like this Nero/Ben fight going on. At least IS and Bub talked about the game throughout. These two seem to have descended into just getting at each other just 'cause. It's descended into calling each other names and it's not getting us any further. It looks like they're stalling so we can look at something else just long enough for us to not have a majority on anyone come Tuesday. They chose an even worse time to fight than Bub and IS; we have 3 days until we lose our chance to pick the first flip. This is our time to strike, so let's strike first while we still can. If you're going to continue going at each other, let's get some reads going.

To both of you, why do you say the other is acting the way he is? What motive do you think he has?

[ProsecutorGodot]

KMd, The wagon stalled... and now has lost votes. Plus even more call him town now. Roy is not being lynched today.

Just because more people call him town doesn't make it true. I can call you town or Steph town or Once town or whoever town all I want and people can believe me, but that doesn't make it so. His flip, if we lynch his slot, makes it so. But since you asked,

Between Steph and Once, I would favor lynching Steph. On top of the things that have already happened, there is now the question of his vote on Nero.

A look back at Post 86 shows him FoSing Nero for inactivity. There is the reaction with Post 114 to Nero's 102 also calling him out on lurking.

Nero Cain better bring the town help next post.

And at this stage, Nero has broken down into simply fighting with Ben. Easy pickings for scum to wagon. Steph has just seemed more opportunistic to jump wagons than what seems necessary despite the length of time where he didn't place down a vote. He jumps toward DDD and then goes right back to Nero over a misunderstanding of what he said. It looked more like backing off in embarrassment in order to not provoke a wagon. Careful play.

Once just seemed to be focused on Roy without tunneling. His reaction to the subject of Roy's replacement seems to be reaching, though. I don't see much outside of Kmd just pointing out to Ben that he was wrong.

Now that that's out there,

UNVOTE: DrRoy (slot)
VOTE: Stephoscope

P-edit: Nero's OMGUS has been noted.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Welcome to the game, Locke.

[ProsecutorGodot]

So many replacing out...I'm starting to wonder if it was some conspiracy between them or if it's just coincidence that more of them left us close to deadline and thus, have us go into overtime.

Not sure what to think of Steph's softclaim in regards to how it affects my stance on him. I'd put it down as null since I honestly think either faction could have their reasons to avoid an outright claim when powers aren't indicative of alignment.

Ben: unfortunately, the one person that, when I read, I sigh, is the one that is so blunt and straightforward, it's just so certain he's town. Would not be surprised in the least bit if he was town.

Locke: Seems to want to get the game back on-pace. I like how we're getting to see serious questioning from him. Town read.

Will see about Nachomamma and whoever replaces Trollie.

I just hate it when I pull a Central America putt on the golf course. It needed just one more revolution to fall into the hole.

And...that's about it for now.

[ProsecutorGodot]

OK.

Today I'm Mike Tyson, Vanilla Townie.
Tomorrow I'm Julius Erving, Doctor.
Then I'm Pete Rose, Vengeful Cop.

Those were exactly the three athletes I wanted, so I put them atop my list and got them. Disappointed with Tyson's role, though!

Might as well try to keep Steph alive until we can get any results at all. No point in counterclaiming that in a game like this.

UNVOTE: Stephoscore

May come back tomorrow if last-minute summer work doesn't have me held down.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Is the case on everyone "pretty much useless, no scumhunting"?

Looks like it. The most we're arguing over is who is the least useful. Replacements and extensions are the only reason this is still on D1.

I think I would rather test this slot once more:

VOTE: Locke Lamora

Two different players in this slot and both of them have lurked to the point of prods. Checking my wristwatch, it looks like the time is half-past wagon, quarter to a lynch.

[ProsecutorGodot]

VOTE: Nero Cain

This looks like a guy taking an easy way out. He doesn't even need to say anything for me to pick up on what he's thinking. "Let's go for the guy who hammered. Never mind what was about to happen."

[ProsecutorGodot]

VOTE: Nero Cain

This looks like a guy taking an easy way out. He doesn't even need to say anything for me to pick up on what he's thinking. "Let's go for the guy who hammered. Never mind what was about to happen."

Could you at least acknowledge my case?

I don't think there was much choice since we were approaching the deadline with no one's inactivity about to make the mod extend it again. Dry-fit just took it upon himself to help finish out the wagon, which if we wanted to get the first say in who died, was inevitable. I think it looks worse that Nero's pursuing the hammer now than that Dry-fit set up the hammer then. Bonus points that Nero doesn't even explain or justify at all. He just goes for an obvious choice after a mislynch. Dry-fit's move looks more like he settled for the Locke wagon than taking the easyscum way out, which again, makes some sense since we were cutting the deadline close.

[ProsecutorGodot]

^

scumbuddy doing what he can to set up and Nero lynch the next day.

VOTE: Nero Cain

This looks like a guy taking an easy way out. He doesn't even need to say anything for me to pick up on what he's thinking. "Let's go for the guy who hammered. Never mind what was about to happen."

lol no. Its a single vote on DDD, why are you worried about it? I'm voting DDD for multiple reasons though I'm not surprised you go for the simple logic that I'm voting him for the hammer.

When DDD flips scum you are next.

1) What happened with your policy on lining up lynches between then and now?

2) What are you waiting for? You think someone's going to say the magic words you need to hear so you can lay your cards on the table?

I don't see how holding out is gonna help us at all. Usually, when I'm in a game where someone holds out for someone else, the game slows down. Especially if they don't say who they're waiting on. I hate the wait-and-see game while we're still in daytime and can do things more important and productive than sit around and wait for your mystery man to descend from his cave of lurking.

Like getting more information. Namely, from you. What are you planning to get out of this?

[ProsecutorGodot]

Nero Cain, on the other hand, has been useless all game. Expect a case soon.

awesome.

So you go after someone that hasn't done anything yet your predecessor's didn't do anything and is town (or you'll claim was town) Hello hypocrisy.

Anyone voting my slot based on my predecessor's activity needs to be looked at. Really, guys? It's obvious he had no interest in playing this game.

Wow. You really think we should disregard his play completely because you say so?

This. So much this. Though I'd like to add, the reason me and a few others suspect the slot is not 'cause of activity levels but 'cause it was outright scummy.

First, no, he can't be a hypocrite for what his predecessor, an entirely different person, said. Second, since it seems like dodged questions are a common thing this game, I'm not even gonna bother with asking again. Go look for it. Third, no explanation for your vote on Steph. Counter-Productive Man strikes again. Our strike back should be to lasso this guy by his neck and tie the end to a high branch.

[ProsecutorGodot]

For Steph, I see town motivation to mention his missing vengecop. It would have been a frustrating surprise if we lynched him day 3 to get his results and we come to find out he didn't have the power to do so.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Yeah, it just looks like Nero's flailing at anyone he can. I don't even know who he's supposed to be making his case for anymore. It looks like Sora based on the Amished tell, but I don't see anything out of Sora backing that up. It looks like an OMGUS slapfight more than anything. And lining up lynches to boot. It doesn't look like he cares much about that until he thinks it's happening to him. Nice double standard, dude. I'm not making much sense out of the claim either. We can still talk as long as we like. I just think our discussion ought to end in Nero's lynch.

[ProsecutorGodot]

SRS question-Do you think that Steph is lying about loosing his cop?

Mentioned this earlier in that I think scumSteph could just as easily have not mentioned that he lost his power. That way, if we lynch him tomorrow, we would be in for a rude surprise when there are no results because using vengecop would clear someone as town, though I also could see that if he still had his power for then, he could use it on someone thought of as town for the most part. Not as useful as simply keeping quiet about losing it, though. It would have been a pretty solid trick, but I don't see Steph trying to pull one over on us here.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Looking at his play for D2, even if questionable, Nero's putting himself out there. We can at least listen to him a little longer. If we're going to wind down the day so we still have overall positive interest in this game, then I can see the case on Sora and agree he has actively contributed more crap than Nero.

UNVOTE: Nero Cain
VOTE: Sorasgoof

If and when he gets back, it looks like it's claim time.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Sora's missing Nero's claim is strange considering the level of scrutiny he's put Nero under. Looks more like selectively not mentioning it, but considering that Nero's claim wasn't in a format that caught my eye, I might understand if he missed it. Still, Nero checks out okay and Sora looks like, in his closing moments, he's tossing himself onto Nero hoping he will stick regardless of his flip.

[ProsecutorGodot]

VOTE: Steph

[ProsecutorGodot]

If it's very important, we ought to know what you're going to ask him. What could be private about it?

[ProsecutorGodot]

Almost, Ben. It was me, DDD, Internet Stranger and Seanald. The next day would have been MyLo.

I had Magic Johnson, Bomb, Jesse Owens and Michael Johnson, VTs, in that order.

Probably could have been better, but the mechanic is definitely reusable.