Otherworld Mafia - Vasta - Over

[Yosarian2]

Hi. I was away for the weekend, catching up now.

what are the cons to everyone piling into one thread other than a really big roster and some possible game/role mechanics of which the uninformed majority are unaware?

Right now, this is basically a 24 player game where we get 2 lynches a day. If we all pile into 1 thread, then we only get 1 lynch a day. Our odds are a lot better with two threads active, even though it's a bit of a mechanical pain.

[Yosarian2]

I'm not seeing how FL's post 45 is any kind of scumslip.

Ok, so he doesn't think the post was a scumslip. Fine.

At this point, I would vote for FaerieLord, but I won't put him at L-1 without any input at all from Yos.

Therefore, consider this my intent to vote, once Yos comes in and posts.

Now he wants to join the wagon based on FL's scumslip, that he didn't agree with, without explaining what changed his mind or why he now thinks FL is scum. But he's giving kind of an artificial reason to wait on doing so.

Just want to point out that FaerieLord is at L-1, a place where I deliberately chose to not put him because we still have a player who hasn't even posted yet.

I don't bother with FoS (because it's stupid), but I'm watching you, TF.

Now he is attacking Toonfighter for joining a wagon that he, apparently, agreed with, just because he thought it was too early to put someone at lynch -1. He basically FOS's toonfighter, for all intents and purposes.

"Attacked" ?

Really?

And now he's denying that he attacked toonfighter.

Vote:Nobody Special

If you think FL is scum, then explain why; even if you didn't want to go to L -1 quite that early, you could still have made a case. But if you do think FL is scum, then attacking someone else for putting him at lynch -1 doesn't really make sense. But if you do think Toonfighter is scummy for putting someone at lynch -1 so early, then why did you deny that you were attacking him at all? It feels like you're trying to be on all sides of all issues, and it feels scummy.

[Yosarian2]

Yosarian not commenting on FL is strange, and I don't think his vote on NS is very strong. I mean, yes - NS clearly implied an FoS on TF, but eh.
.

All you got out of my post was "NS implied a FOS on TF"?

It's interesting that you say my vote on NS isn't very strong. Can you explain why you think I'm voting for NS, and why you think those reasons are weak?

[Yosarian2]

It just seemed a weird way for you to characterize my case, when it was a relatively minor point.

Anyway, it kind of looks bad no matter what FL's alignment is; if FL is scum, then NS's posts look like "trying to defend my buddy while attacking him at the same time"; while if FL is town, then NS's posts look like "trying to support the lynch of a townie while going down on record as not wanting to put him at lynch -1. " Also, he kind of did the same thing on Toonfighter, who has been another major wagon today. Either way, it seemed like he wanted to stake out both sides of the issue.

The whole thing where NS made such a big deal about how he "deliberately chose not to put" FL at lynch -1, even while he was supporting the lynch, just looks bad to me. It's not about consistency; I don't care if he changes his mind. But he seemed to be trying to have it both ways at the same time, and when he changed his mind he didn't give any reason for changing his mind. He seemed to want to lynch FL, but didn't give any reason for it, and didn't want to commit to a vote; and in his next post, he was kind-of-but-not-really attacking someone else for going after FL, while trying to maintain plausible deniability about the whole thing.

The whole thing looks like NS is scum, he already knows who the town is, and he wants to lynch them without getting his own hands dirty.

[Yosarian2]

I was more concerned by your lack of mention of FL.

I'm really more interested in other people's response to the FL wagon then in the FL wagon itself. That just looks like a standard "some guy said something that kind of sort of implies he's scum, let's lynch him" day 1 wagon; which is fine, and I'm waiting to see FL's defense here, I just think there are more interesting things going on here.

[Yosarian2]

Still can't see what my slip is. Once people point it out, I might answer :shrug:

This is why I voted FL. His phrasing just seems to indicate that it's

possible

he slipped, while just waiting to see if anyone caught something that truly could be seen as a slip.

Sure, that's a plausable way to read that FL post. Not sure why you didn't state it in your initial attack on FL, though.

Also, I don't feel that I "attacked" TF. I was just very clearly pointing out that FL was again at L-1. My reasoning for not putting FL at L-1 was to avoid a quickhammer (yes, even though I found FL scummy -- yes, I feel it's possible that there could be two scumteams).

I'm increasingly confused here; you seem to be both saying that you don't suspect toonfighter, and that you suspect toonfighter of being scum but in a different scumgroup from FL.

You seem to be assuming a lot of different things here, and I don't really like it. My initial assumption was that if this is a 2-scumgroup game, that one scumgroup would start off in this thread and the other one would start off in the other thread. Of course there are other possibilities, but for you to jump right to thinking that there are two different scumgroups in this thread and that TF is in one and FL is in the other without any real information just seems downright weird to me. Especially as you really haven't commented on any of TF's other play, even though he's currently the biggest wagon in the game.

[Yosarian2]

Oh, one quick comment: probably the best real case made against FaerieLord yet was made by Korts over in the other thread.

Based on this, FaerieLord is the one who comes off the scummiest. He rides the wave of suspicion he sees heading my way with a stark claim of the initial post being "horribly anti-town", but dismounts at the first sign of opposition, maintaining a transitional air by saying my "word choice was very unfortunate". This is not mere wishy-washiness, there's no room for movement between extremes like that in an argument.

I'd like to hear Fairy respond to that.

[Yosarian2]

We're not going to lynch the claimed doc today, but I will say that this defense:

I voted you because it seemed the safest thing to do at the time. I didn't have much time to put in the game, and the wagon on you seemed like a good wagon. So, I voted, trying to get some more time to read the thread carefully and (if needed) move my vote to a better place.

Feels really scummy to me.

[Yosarian2]

(Which I got an answer to, btw; if someone legally targets me, then they die! wooo.)

???

why is this on at the end?

He's saying that his role (and the question he asked the mod about it) doesn't clarify what counts as a legal target if someone switches threads; just that if he is a legal target, then the person targeting him dies.

[Yosarian2]

UNVOTE: Faerie

VOTE: roflcopter

NS is still town guys

First of all: why is NS town?

Second of all: rofl? Why? He's pretty solidly in his town meta here; I'd be fairly surprised if he flipped scum.

[Yosarian2]

UNVOTE: Faerie

VOTE: roflcopter

NS is still town guys

First of all: why is NS town?

Second of all: rofl? Why? He's pretty solidly in his town meta here; I'd be fairly surprised if he flipped scum.

dont have time to go back and explain my town read right now. will do so later tonight.

I don't know rofl's town meta. if he is really playing well into his meta send me links so i can check it out. I had a scum read on him because of some posts and it has since become more null, but some pressure on him isnt a bad idea.

unvote

Vote:TheTrollie

We got a live one here.

[Yosarian2]

No one seems to have commented on my last post, so let me be clear: TheTrollie looks really scummy to me right now. He's been voting without giving reasons all game, and when I asked him about one of his votes (the rofl vote) he didn't give any specifics, but said that

[quote"TheTrollie"]
I don't know rofl's town meta. if he is really playing well into his meta send me links so i can check it out. I had a scum read on him because of some posts and it has since become more null, but some pressure on him isnt a bad idea.[/quote]

This really seems bad to me. He doesn't explain why he suspected rofl, but backs away from the scum read as soon as he's question about it (it's "since become more null" and saying that it's now just for "pressure").

Combined with the way he's been joining wagons all game with no reasoning, it doesn't look like scumhunting; it looks like he's trying to avoid confrontation but wants to bush mislynches on townies.

[Yosarian2]

Yos is off this game.

Hah. It's page 11 and I've already caught two scum singlehandedly, ns and trollie. I am on this game, bitches.

Anyway, going to be away for the weekend.

[Yosarian2]

okay well that's a dumb reason and it seems much more linked to the fact that suddenly the faerielord wagon looked awful juicy because more people had hopped on. the explanation from him should have been right there when he said he was willing to vote

Maybe. But Yos doesn't take #102 into account in his case, which was what I was pointing out.

Pedit: So I guess you were looking for someone to say no then, SB?

In his vote, NS didn't give any sign he was even aware of that post, or that it had influenced his thinking at all. I would have felt much better if he's even just quoted it and said "this sounds scummy" instead of just changing his read with no explanation at all, and not even commenting on the fact that his read was changing.

[Yosarian2]

I dont get why you are so taken aback by my comment on rofl. To me, he's been scummy, if his play in this game looks like his scum meta, show me what games you are referencing so i can take those into consideration. Stop questioning my read before you give me the vital information that you say I need in order to realize he is town.

I just want you to explain why you think he's been scummy. If you don't know his meta, that's fine, but I still want you to explain your vote in terms less vague then "I think he's been scummy". Or if you could explain any of your reads it would be nice.

And, as I think I said before in regards to FL, I am not the type of player to place a vote and say "this is just to put some pressure on." I think that's dumb because it tells the player that you dont really have a good case on them.

Uh..."this is just to put some pressure on" was a big part of the defense you gave for your rofl vote.

I don't know rofl's town meta. if he is really playing well into his meta send me links so i can check it out. I had a scum read on him because of some posts and it has since become more null, but some pressure on him isnt a bad idea.

[Yosarian2]

Uh..."this is just to put some pressure on" was a big part of the defense you gave for your rofl vote.

good point. I always just fess up if pressured mainly because previous games have taught me that people auto-lynch liars, but that does kinda fuck with my plan.

now, why the NS wagon SUCKS:

NS has been good at probing and giving reads, seems like active scum hunting. There are two posts which concern me which are the FL switch post and one of the most recents which is the "im trying to change my meta one." The latter might be true but it could easily be scum NS dealing with the issue. i still think he is town but i can see why those two posts might alarm some of you. Take a look at his second post, #34, where he dives right into Aia with analysis and a read. hes also got a lot of very town posts after that. In the game I played with NS he would say things like the two scummy posts I pointed out but he was town, so i dont hold those against him.

Ok.

Is there a reason you're avoiding answering my question about rofl, trollie? You even quote it in that post, and then you ignore it.

On a side note, the nobody special wagon is still a good one.

[Yosarian2]

Yeah, I'll move back over to the NS wagon.

unvote

vote:NS

On a side note, I'm going to be V/LA because of a 5 day vacation from the 4th of July through the weekend. I'll be around for the rest of the day, but after that, I might not be online again before deadline, so if you want to convince me to move my vote, today is the day to do it.

[Yosarian2]

That wasn't the question, Trollie.

I dont get why you are so taken aback by my comment on rofl. To me, he's been scummy, if his play in this game looks like his scum meta, show me what games you are referencing so i can take those into consideration. Stop questioning my read before you give me the vital information that you say I need in order to realize he is town.

I just want you to explain why you think he's been scummy. If you don't know his meta, that's fine, but I still want you to explain your vote in terms less vague then "I think he's been scummy".

You kept saying "rofl is scummy" and you never explained it.

[Yosarian2]

Quick V/La post:

Trollie seems to be reading things as scummy that I think are a normal part of rofl's persona (agression, desire to lynch scum quickly, little patience with setup-related comments), but I don't mind that. That, and his explination for his NS read, make me less suspicious of him. I'm pretty happy keeping my vote on NS for now.

@Yos (if you're still here): You didn't answer this.

In his vote, NS didn't give any sign he was even aware of that post, or that it had influenced his thinking at all. I would have felt much better if he's even just quoted it and said "this sounds scummy" instead of just changing his read with no explanation at all, and not even commenting on the fact that his read was changing.

Yeah, you do have a point that he just kind of flipped without explanation initially. Do you think that #149 isn't genuine then?

Well, it's hard to say, just looking at that one post. It certainly wasn't a strong vote; it could as easily have been just NS going with the flow and following people bandwagoning as anything else. The general pattern of NS's suspicions doesn't feel right to me, as I said earlier.

I also don't like the way he's reacting to pressure. He seems almost abnormally calm and unconcerned to be this close to a lynch this close to deadline, he didn't really react at all to me moving my vote back onto him, ect. It feels like a fake reaction, like he's trying not to respond at all in order to not say the wrong thing and just hoping the wagon will go away if he ignore it. He's basically not responding to pressure like town usually respond to pressure. Not sure if that's him being scum or just his personality, but it doesn't improve my opinion of him.

[Yosarian2]

I'm back from V/LA, catching up now

[Yosarian2]

Readin page 16. Uh. We just had 3 people claim the same role? And say that they're not sure if they're town?

uhhh

unvote:NS

, at least for now. This is too absurd to be fiction. Although as rofl pointed out, it is possible that there are both town-aligned minics and mafia-aligned mimics.

On page 17:

Apparently I'm town..I still think NS is lying.

You think he's lying and just randomly came up with the idea of being a mimic, in a game where there are at least two others? Considering that this is a new role, that makes no sense. Does your role work the way NS described?

Although the whole "I thought I was a survivor but apparently I'm not" thing, that both other mimics agreed with, kind of confirms that the alignment part his role PM is worded the same as the other two. Which implies that Panzer, at least, almost certainly has the same alignment as the other mimics.

How long do we have until deadline?

[Yosarian2]

also I'm inclined to believe that perhaps with so many town aligned mimics that the paranoid gun owner in AIA may not necessarily be town alligned...

it would be odd, but if this game was filled with a lot of mimics it would be a clever use of the role for scum.

I don't think that works...if the mimic targets the PGO, the mimic gets shot, right?

[Yosarian2]

Here's a question. What happens if a mimic targets a mimic who targets a power role? Mimics, you might want to ask the mod that. We may be able to run a chain of mimics to confirm all of their roles (although not their alignments).

[Yosarian2]

Plus we can use a mimic to confirm or disprove the doc claim we had earlier

[Yosarian2]

Mimics: If you target a claimed power role, can you use the power right away, or do you have to wait a night?

[Yosarian2]

As for toon fighter, I do believe there is a doctor but with so many mimics he would need to be x-shot to stop the scenario you described earlier. Unless we got really powerful scum roles in the mix.

Hmm. Let me think about this:

4 mimics all mimic the doctor=5 doctors

They all protect each other in a loop every night (that we plan the day before).

Scum can't kill any of them, we lynch everyone else

Town wins

If all 4 mimics and the doctor are town, does that break the game?

(Out of the mimic claims, yeah, FL's is the iffiest).

[Yosarian2]

Thinking more on it, Bastion, the scum PGO theory is fun but couldn't work. The easiest, most obvious, and best scum PGO plan is to not claim it.

true. the motive to claim is town.

Well, PGO-scum doesn't really make a lot of sense as a role anyway; it just punishes town power roles for doing what they're supposed to try to to and target a scum. Just not really good role design. If he's a PGO, he's almost certainly town.

On the other hand, PGO is a fairly common scum fake-claim; scum sometimes claim PGO in order to try to scare cops into not targeting them. If he's a scum, he's probably lying about being a PGO. It's not worth the risk of testing a PGO claim, either; either you decide he's town, or you lynch him.

Also, having a PGO in a game kind of makes sense if there are a ton of town power roles that target; it's a way to balance that out, albiet a very swingy one.

I guess it is a tad wifom to think with so many mimics there could be 2 PGO (1 in each thread?)

Eh. We don't know how the role distribution by thread works; it could be that both threads have similar roles, or not.

[Yosarian2]

Here's a question. What happens if a mimic targets a mimic who targets a power role? Mimics, you might want to ask the mod that. We may be able to run a chain of mimics to confirm all of their roles (although not their alignments).

Well, we probably would gain mimic. That's actually a good plan.
To answer your next question, we cannot use the ability during the same night we get it. Also, once we get an ability, we lose the previous ability. But yeah, I'd be very willing to circlejerk with the other mimics to see if they gain mimic too. That said, it doesn't confirm mimic-town, just rolecops all of us.

Also, not quite sure why people are voting NS. He started this chain, so yeah.
So yeah, still doubting TF's claim, mostly due to the fact that he didn't mention his status ambiguity. It either means that all mimics are neutral, or that he was hiding something.

If we want to plan something to confirm the mimics and/or the doctor, we don't have much time.

The only mimic claim I have any real doubt about is yours, FL. Let me ask; is there another mimic who's willing to target FL to test his claim? We only need 1 volunteer, and we should work it out before day ends. We also need at least 1 person to test the doc claim, although if more then 1 mimic becomes a doctor that's fine.

If you mimic a role, do you keep that role for the rest of the game, or is it only for the next night?

[Yosarian2]

Ok, great, ns, that's even better then I hoped.

The part about Toonfighter's healer role being limited makes sense, and since we can test the claim so easily, there's no reason for him to claim more then that in thread. If we ever need to we can even use unclaimed details to confirm a mimic later, although that's less important.

So, tonight, we need one mimic to test FL's claim and see if he really is a mimic, and another mimic to test toonfighter's healer claim. If we do this right, we are going to have a *lot* of semi-confirmed people tommorow, which might make the rest of the game easy. NS, would you rather test FL or Toonfighter tonight?

[Yosarian2]

NS? Panzer? BB? Is anyone here? We've got less then 7 hours to figure this out.

On a side note, we also have less then 7 hours to get together a lynch, and there's no way in hell we're going to lynch one of the claimed mimics or the claimed doc today when by tommorow we should be 100% sure if they're telling the truth or not

So, looking at the last votecount:

FaerieLord (4): Toon Fighter, Amrun, Lastsurvivor, Nobody Special
Shmugen (2): petapan, roflcopter
Nobody Special (2): Shmugen, Yosarian2
Toon Fighter (2): BBmolla, FaerieLord
roflcopter (1): WeaponsofMassConstruction
Sir Bastion (1): Panzerjager

Vote: Shmugen

, mostly because shmugen is the only wagon that seems likely of going to a lynch that's not a claimed mimic or a doctor. Everyone else, either join this wagon or find some better to lynch, but you have to do it RIGHT NOW.

[Yosarian2]

When you say "follower", is that the same as a tracker?

Ok, new plan:

NS is going to check Toonfighter

Panzer, check out FL

BB, use your ability on Shmegun, see if he really is a tracker.

FL, do whatever you think is best.

Shmegun, track FL and see what he does. Make sure you claim what FL was doing at the start of the day tommorow, before he claims.

unvote:Shmegun

vote: Sir Bastion

Probably not all of these claims are true, but that's fine, because we can test them all tonight and nail the lying scum. And if Toon really is a doctor, scum are going to have a hell of a time figuring out who they can safely kill.

[Yosarian2]

...or, he could get hammered by NS right before i post. I guess that works too. (sigh)

[Yosarian2]

Anyway, first half of the plan still stands. NS is testing Toonfighter, and Panzer, test Fairielord.

Really wouldn't surprise me if Shmugen flips scum today, so it's not all bad, and I suppose it's better then a no-lynch. Still, i was briefly having visions of how hard we could break this game in half if with our mimics we had 5 trackers.

[Yosarian2]

Yos is there a reason you go against your own advice there?

Which advice is that?

[Yosarian2]

Yos is there a reason you go against your own advice there?

Which advice is that?

mostly because shmugen is the only wagon that seems likely of going to a lynch that's not a claimed mimic or a doctor.

You were very anxious about us running out of time just the last page, pretty much borderline admitting shmugen was a compromise lynch and then you were willing to join a wagon with only 1 player on it with less then 5 hours left. Were you willing to hammer me if I ended up claiming a power role as well?

Lynching a claimed power role on day 1, when you have the option of confirming the claim instead, is a pretty terrible idea. We have a pretty unique ability to confirm power roles this game, and lynching them instead is just foolish. And any town power role we can keep alive is potentially 5 times as useful as it would be in a normal game. Plus a tracker could have helped us confirm some of the other claims at the same time. Yes, no-lynching on day 1 is bad, but that doesn't mean lynching a claimed tracker is a good idea.

[Yosarian2]

Fucking tags.

Yosarian just shot up my scumlist.

Yeah Yos is scum. I think SK. Donno why.

What is wrong with you people? Not wanting to lynch a tracker on day 1 is a scum tell? wtf?

[Yosarian2]

Would you have been willing to risk another power role being outed today?

We've got 6 claimed power roles already. The scum can only kill 1 person a night. So, no, I don't really care about outing more power roles at this point. If anything it might make the mimics more effective.

[Yosarian2]

I'm pretty sure that "don't vote me because you might out power roles" was a scummy softclaim on Sir Bastion's part. Seeing as there's no reason that a townie pr would softclaim after the lynch but before the night, I'm increasingly thinking he's scum.

[Yosarian2]

Ok, back from weekend.

First of all, SB noted what I was also thinking in that Yos contradicted himself after saying Shmu lynch was the only one that could happen based on Shmu's claim, yet in that case, any claim would've got Shmu off the hook, so Yos's reasoning (and later) sounded like scum tripping over himself.

...what?

You did notice that when I voted Shmu, he had 2 votes and basically no momentum and we were much more likely to lynch either toonfighter or ns until I got the Shmu wagon going, right?

Yes, when he claimed tracker, i wanted to test his claim with the mimics. Yes, it's good we didn't since that would have delayed his lynch for a day, but if you pay attention you'll notice that since his tracker claim was a lie my plan still would have resulted in Shmu being caught scum.

The above post itself seems contrived. Keep in mind this post came almost immediately after NS hammered. Therefore, it should've come up on preview edit (I was also in this position). Yet Yos made no indication he saw this which makes this post seem like a "I didn't know" appeal until two posts later, which reads as "I should probably react to sell this."

Look how long my post is. Look at how NS's much shorter hammer post came only 2 minutes after my post. Do you actually think I wrote all that *after* NS hammered?

Also, you realize that you're suggesting I bussed my scumbuddy and then defended him after he was dead, right? Do you realize how little sense that makes?

Really wouldn't surprise me if Shmugen flips scum today, so it's not all bad, and I suppose it's better then a no-lynch.

Still, i was briefly having visions of how hard we could break this game in half if with our mimics we had 5 trackers.

Bolded is classic not taking a stance filler. I also find it hard to believe Yos would really think we could break the game so easily, so it reads as more selling he's not scum.

Let me say this one more time.

I lynched Shmugen yesterday. Me. Would not have happened without me at all. So, yes, I thought he was likely to be scum. Duh.

And if we've got a ton of mimics, then yeah, we should be able to break this game in half pretty damn easily. At the very least, we can easily test every single claim, and have like a million power roles at the same time. The question isn't why was I trying to break the game. The real question is, why weren't you?

Now that we know there are scum mimics breaking the game becomes somewhat harder, but it may still be doable.

Anyway, Sir Bastion is still scum. Also, this is clearly a town driven wagon, so choo choo.

Vote:Sir Bastion

BB has to actually explain why he thinks Bastion is town instead of just repeating that he's town over and over again, and he needs to do so fast. WMD is still scummy, just like his predecessor was yesterday. I need to read the other game when I get a chance to get a better read on MOS and tierce.

[Yosarian2]

I suppose maybe you're not dead until the mod officially declares a lynch?

Yeah, I'm sure it is. The "no talking after your dead" rule just bans the next-day "bah, go team" post. If they wanted to ban twilight talking, they would have said that instead.

[Yosarian2]

And, yes; MOS, why did you hammer so fast? Sir B is probably going to flip scum, but I really wanted to get BB on record with an explanation of his defense of Sir B before the hammer happened. There's no reason for days to be this short.

[Yosarian2]

Oh ok then...


So I guess I should name and shame my night 1 action?

Sure. Also, who do you think is scum?

[Yosarian2]

yeah cause pretending to be town while in twilight is what is done by scum these days...to be cool you know.

(shrug) A lot of people do. Personally, I never admit anything until the mod actually says I've been lynched, especially in a theme game since in those a hammer isn't always really a hammer.

btw shame and name my night 1 action AWAY! It was good old Yosarian2

Ok. You could have said that before you got hammered, you know; then I might have unvoted you.

[Yosarian2]

Also, @Yosarian2: frankly, I don't believe in putting someone at L-1 if you aren't ready for them to die. The people voting him before me clearly knew that they were running him up to a pending lynch, and soon. All this claim of quickhammering is bullshit, because if you didn't want him to get lynched anytime soon you'd have made sure he wasn't at L-1. There is no point in putting someone at L-1 if you aren't ready for them to get hammered at any moment.

That doesn't actually answer my question, you know. My question was "why did you hammer so fast?" Vauge gametheory about how it's ok to hammer if someone is at lynch -1 is basically irrelevant to the "why did you want to end this day after only about 72 hours" question. I mean, I hadn't even had a chance to post my case on Bastion yet today, let alone get a response to it.

[Yosarian2]

I'm shooting Peta tonight with the vig ability I mimicked btw.

You do realize that Peta is by far the most obvtown person in the game, right? You'd better be joking.

[Yosarian2]

Wait you actually had something? Aww shame to miss it. Btw you said earlier you would have unvoted me based on my read last night?

It certainly would have strengthened your claim a lot. I mean, I still would have had doubts, especially with a flipped scum mimic, but up to that point I was assuming you were BSing completely since your comments yesterday made it sound like you didn't get the same mimic PM that all the other claimed mimics got.

[Yosarian2]

I mean, I hadn't even had a chance to post my case on Bastion yet today, let alone get a response to it.

For me to know that, it would require having read the thread fully and actually paid attention to the wagon.

Uh. The day lasted, what, 72 hours? Is your defense here actually "I quickhamered without reading the thread today".

I mean, if you hadn't read the thread yet, then why were you in such a rush to end the day before you even had a chance to, you know, do that? If you replace into a game on day 2, do you usually quickhammer randomly without reading the thread?

[Yosarian2]

I don't think you understand the meaning of WIFOM.

"I don't do scummy act X as scum because when I'm scum i don't want to look scummy" is pretty much the best example of worthless self-WIFOM there is, MOS, and that's basically what you just said.

[Yosarian2]

I don't think you understand the meaning of WIFOM.

"I don't do scummy act X as scum because when I'm scum i don't want to look scummy" is pretty much the best example of worthless self-WIFOM there is, MOS, and that's basically what you just said.

Yos, you know better than that. WIFOM only applies as a legitimate argument in situations where both sides being discussed have relatively equal probability of occurring.

Not at all. WIFOM applies whenever someone uses the argument "I don't do X as scum", because if you actually understand your own meta like that, then you can do X as scum knowing you could make that argument. It's especially bad when "I don't do X as scum because X looks scummy" is the defense you used; if you think you can make that argument because you think you don't do X as scum, then by definition that means you think X looks townie for you, so the whole argument inherently nullifies itself.

[Yosarian2]

The point is, MOS, you're trying to defend a very anti-town act by saying "if I were scum I wouldn't do anything that scummy", and that's just not going to fly. If you could explain why you thought a quick-hammer and ending the day so fast was in the town's best interest, that would be a lot more useful.

[Yosarian2]

Hey

Yos

,

Bastion

.

From this thread, who would want iamausername dead?

If I'd had any useful thoughts on that, I would have said so. You often can't find an obvious motive for a nightkill, other then "I think X is a good player".

[Yosarian2]

I will be on V/LA for the next week or so. Will be back on or around the 30'th.

[Yosarian2]

Just came in to get caught up and comment during my V/LA, but nothing has really happened in the past few pages to comment on.

I will say that I Tammy's posts so far, and I don't really have a good idea of what most of her reads are. She does say she finds NS suspicious, but reasoning is weak, and she doesn't even mention the claim or anything which seems odd. Her reasoning for why she finds MOS town is also kinda strange. Tammy, you don't need to make a long post, but if you could just make a short, coherent case on the people in this thread that you suspect it would help.

[Yosarian2]

I will say that I Tammy's posts so far

I don't like the missing word here. Everyone makes typos, but this feels like you constructed the post a priori to add whatever result you then saw fit.

Ok, that makes absolutely no sense in at least four different ways, which is pretty impressive for a post that short. If anything, a typo means I just wrote the post out really fast without bothering to edit it, which is the opposite of what I think you're trying to say. And your conclusion makes no sense; do you actually think that I write posts out and then add words in later? Why would i do that? Do you think I have some kind of mafia post madlib generator on my computer? And what does "add whatever result I saw fit" even mean? And how could any of this have anything to do with anyone's alignment?

I really don't see how you could possibly think that me writing "I Tammy's posts so far" instead of "I read Tammy's posts so far" like I obviously meant had some kind of deeper meaning. You're really reaching here, Tierce, to the point where I don't even know what you're trying to do. Is this post supposed to be some kind of chainsaw defense of Tammy's slot or something?

[Yosarian2]

Ah, day started, I didn't even notice.

And, what, we have someone at lynch -1 already for no reason? What the hell? Was the last "48 hour day and then two weeks of twilight" not dumb enough for you guys, you want to do it again?

Vote:Last Survivor

On a side note, internet connection has been reeaally dodgy here lately. I'm hoping to get internet for long enough to actually post this at some point today. Hopefully when the cable guy comes today he can fix the problem.

Edit: Actually, while I wrote this post, I lost internet for abotu 8 more hours and it just came back now so I can finally submit it, assuming it stays on long enough to work. Stupid comcast.

[Yosarian2]

Yos2, the other thread already has a lynch. What two weeks of twilight were you predicting, again?

Ok. I haven't had a chance to look at the other thread. that's irrelevant, though. Why are we trying to end the day so fast, again, after that disastrous day we had yesterday?

Anyway, at this point, I'd much rather lynch you then rofl. You still haven't explained your terrible hammer yesterday, and now you're making a pretty terrible vote today.

[Yosarian2]

Thank you.

To be honest, I don't really think MOS is scum, but this game is really frustrating. Does anyone here actually want to, like, play mafia and stuff? We haven't really done so since day 1.

[Yosarian2]

I'm not trying to end the day, Yos2. I was the FIRST person to vote roflcopter...everyone else followed ME this time. Why are you going after me for him being at L-1 instead of the people who actually put him there? Also, I'm not the one calling for a speedlynch, that's rolfcopter, lol...

Hey, if you make the choice to stay on a wagon while it's lynch -1, you are equally responsible for it. Choosing to stay on a wagon has the exact same effect as joining it.

That being said, I'm not voting for you, I'm voting for the guy who actually put him at lynch -1 for no reason. I am questioning you, frankly because you're here and no one else is.

[Yosarian2]

By the way; you see how we have absolutly no discussion and nothing going on today? How everyone is lurking and no one has anything useful to say? That's because of the stupid, useless day we had yesterday, because of your anti-town quickhammer, MOS. This is what happens when you have a totally wasted day. It puts the town into a funk, makes everyone stop caring about the game, and usually makes the town lose really, really horribly.

So, do you want to try again to explain why that quickhammer was a pro-town act? Because I think we will be pretty lucky to have your action there not give this entire game to the scum. And the fact that that even after you did that, you're not even hesitant about leaving someone else at lynch -1 48 hours into the NEXT day really bugs me. Do you want the town to win this game, MOS?

On a side note, everyone has to bloody start posting. I don't want to see this game get player abandoned, but that's the direction we seem to be going.

[Yosarian2]

That being said, I'm not voting for you, I'm voting for the guy who actually put him at lynch -1 for no reason.

I definitely did not put roflcopter at L-1 for "no reason." Yeah, I barely brushed upon it in my vote, but my main reasons for hopping on the roflcopter wagon were because of his early game push on NS and MoS when neither had really done anything particularly scummy. MoS in particular, who hadn't posted much at all.

MOS not saying much of anything in the other thread on day 1 *was* the main scum tell, and rofl was hardly the only person to call him out on it.

[Yosarian2]

That being said, I'm not voting for you, I'm voting for the guy who actually put him at lynch -1 for no reason.

I definitely did not put roflcopter at L-1 for "no reason." Yeah, I barely brushed upon it in my vote, but my main reasons for hopping on the roflcopter wagon were because of his early game push on NS and MoS when neither had really done anything particularly scummy. MoS in particular, who hadn't posted much at all.

MOS not saying much of anything in the other thread on day 1 *was* the main scum tell, and rofl was hardly the only person to call him out on it.

You're neglecting the fact that not posting much isn't a justifiable scumtell for me in the first place, so it doesn't make any sense for him to go after me on that basis.

Hmm? Going after someone for not producing content makes quite a lot of sense, in general. If you think there are extenuating circumstances for your behavior this game, that's fine, but that doesn't mean there's anything wrong with people calling you out for lack of content.

[Yosarian2]

Re: Yos - My point is that there were NOT extenuating circumstances for my behavior in this game...my behavior can be tracked back to nearly every single game I've played in the last year, meaning it's not a justifiable scumtell AT ALL.

The "My meta is that I always lurk" defense is kind of a pathetic one, but if you want to use that, go for it. But "He should have known that my meta is I always lurk and therefore he shouldn't have dared attack me for lurking and therefore he's scum" is probably the worst excuse to OMGUS someone I've ever heard in the history of mafia.

[Yosarian2]

It's pretty easily verifiable.

The point is, it doesn't matter. Even if someone's meta is that they always lurk, you should still attack them for lurking, to pressure them into being more active.

@Vi: Yea we know he's scum he's just laughing at us that he isn't dead yet...

Why? WHY is he scum? Do you have any case other then "wahh wahh I'm a baby who doens't like people that vote me"? Vi, do you?

[Yosarian2]

:Yawn:
This interaction is so incredibly boring, cause you both know you are both town, but you're just clashing egos at this point.

Fine, great, whatever. Can someone just tell me what the case on ROFL was supposed to be? Anyone?

[Yosarian2]

there's a better case on lastsurvivor. but lets be serious its probably tammy/lastsurvivor left in this thread, with an outside chance of mos being scum from the other thread.

Yeah, I'd be willing to lynch either lastsurvivor or tammy today.

[Yosarian2]

When did I say that?

I'm just arguing with Yos2 because he's being stupid. We're not talking about my roflcopter vote at all. Him being scum is just a coincidence.

Um, yes, we were. If that wasn't your reason for voting rofl, then you have no reason.

Also, you are being really absurd here; anyone who actually tries to use the "it's ok, I always lurk" defense should be lynched on general principles.

[Yosarian2]

I'm also trying to figure out why Yos2 insists on dragging this day out and causing the same apathy in Aia that he accuses me of having caused here yesterday. The longer this day drags on, the worse things get in that other thread (by Yos2's standards), and yet he doesn't seem at all concerned about it. Nothing productive is happening in either thread, and we already have roflcopter-scum dead to rights. There really isn't anything left to talk about at this point except for people trying to run interference for their scumbuddy.

I'm not tryign to "drag the game out". I'm trying to lynch scum. I don't know what the hell you're doing, but you don't seem to be scumhunting.

[Yosarian2]

No, it's not.

You know, screw his.

unvote

vote:MOS

Either you're scum, or you're the least helpful townie ever, and I don't think you're this bad as town.

I'd still be willing to lynch Last Survivor, but if MOS's only goal this game seems to be pushing for mislynches without even pretending he cares what their alignment is.

[Yosarian2]

Yos, you're being stubborn. Ignore him, vote Tammy and help me push this wagon.
MoS, stop being a dick. You're just arguing for arguing's sake. Try help win the game.

Also, mod

Vote Count please

PEDIT: Hey, Amrun. Join the Tammy wagon, then.

I'm not being "stubborn", i just see absolutely no reason why people keep calling MOS town. He doesn't look like it to me.

But the Tammy wagon also looks like a good lynch; I've suspected that slot all game.

unvote

vote:Tammy

[Yosarian2]

I'm not being "stubborn", i just see absolutely no reason why people keep calling MOS town. He doesn't look like it to me.

Give me one reason why scum would play like MoS?

Because his play is helping the town lose. He took a big step towards that yesterday with that quickhammer, and he's doing everything he can to help the town lose with his play today as well. And his lack of contribution on day 1 also looks pretty anti-town. And until I called him out on it, it looked like he was going to get away with it. That's why scum would do it, because scum want to win and MOS's play so far this game makes that more likely.

As terrible as MoS' play is this game, there's no denying, his actions make no sense as either town or scum.

If you can't figure out why someone is doing their actions, if you can't figure out their motivation, the first question is, what win condition are they playing towards. Are their actions helping the town win, or helping the scum win? MOS is not an idiot; he's got a huge amount of experience, and he doesn't do things for no reason. And yet he has completely failed to give any plausible pro-town motivation for any of his actions. So the most likely possibility left is that he has a scum motivation for his actions.

[Yosarian2]

Post

I think Tammy is still scum

But whatever.

Well then, get on the wagon. With your vote the tammy wagon will be the biggest one.

[Yosarian2]

=
That said, only roflcopter is scum out of the two people voting me. Yos2 just doesn't get it

at all

.

I've given you about 20 chances to explain why rofl is scum. You apparently can't, so I can only assume that you don't have a case at all.

[Yosarian2]

Yeah, MOS was trying pretty hard to derail the scum wagon yesterday in favor of a ROFL lynch.

[Yosarian2]

Did you seriously just ask me what I did on Night 1?

I blocked Yos2 night 2, hence treating him as town yesterday despite him being dumb.

if by "being dumb" you mean "lynching scum despite your best efforts"

[Yosarian2]

@DCL: If your logic is correct, then EVERYONE IN THIS THREAD IS TOWN and we should no lynch immediately. I don't know how that would work at all, considering no one switched over there at all, that I can remember, besides Tierce going batshit.

It's possible.

It's also possible that if a scumteam has guys in each thread, they can kill in either thread; so if there was 1 red left here and 1 red left there, perhaps red can kill in either this thread or that thread. It doesn't necessarily mean there aren't any scum here.

I'm not sure the roleblock tells us anything, but lastsurvivor is still a reasonable lynch; if there are any scum here at all he's likely to be one.

[Yosarian2]

Did you seriously just ask me what I did on Night 1?

I blocked Yos2 night 2, hence treating him as town yesterday despite him being dumb.

if by "being dumb" you mean "lynching scum despite your best efforts"

Look at Yos2 trying to claim townie points lololololol. It's almost like he doesn't realize I just caught our scum today.

I was trying to lynch last survivor yesterday, remember? I couldn't get enough people on board, especally since you were trying to push through the terrible rofl wagon instead. So instead I lynched the other scum. And I helped force through the Shmegan wagon day 1. So far I'm 3/4 for wagons that I pushed hitting scum, so you're damn right I'm claiming townie points.

Anyway, lastsurvivor is scum. Going to vote him once I see a current votecount.



Also, quadz' explanation for the 2 kills in Aia makes way more sense than cross-killing scum. That makes LS a dirty scumbag. However, having caught this scum now, I think we should all be taking a hard look at Aia to help them figure out their scum.[/quote]

[Yosarian2]

That last paragraph was part of the MOS quote, stupid typos.

[Yosarian2]

ROFL already said this, but

So, sure. roflcopter was the alternative to Tammy D3. That's true. Was the roflcopter wagon pushed by scum? I know the vote counts have been spotty all game, but I can't find a single instance in the official vote counts of any scum anywhere voting you, bunnyscum. So the "counterwagon" argument means absolutely, positively nothing.

Uh, yes, the scum last survivor was the one who put rofl at lynch -1 yesterday. Of course it was a counterwagon.

Anyway, you still haven't given any reasons for him being scum, so I still don't care. He's been looking pretty solidly obvtown all game, and he was on both scum lynches so far.

[Yosarian2]

Eh, on second though, I don't think we're going to get much more out of today, lastsurvivor's already had a chance to fakeclaim, and I don't really care what the vote count is.

vote:lastsurvivor

[Yosarian2]

There is a good part of me that wants Aia to no-lynch today, because I fully predict that only one of them will be around tomorrow if they lynch.

Eh, let's let them be for now. If lastsurvivor flips blue scum, like I think he will, he's hopeully the last one, probably just leaving one red scum in Aia. So I say we let Aia try to find their last scum over there, and either they'll succeed and probably win the game, or else they'll narrow the pool down so much that the last scum red will be obvious. Either way it should be a town win.

[Yosarian2]

...heh, and it looks like vi just reached the same conclusion.

[Yosarian2]

Oh he claimed roleblocker. any one else think he is a scum roleblocker?

Pretty unlikely. Assuming lastsurvivor flips scum, I can't really see how he could be. At the very least, if lastsurvivor flips bluescum, MOS is confirmed not-bluescum, I think.

[Yosarian2]

From the other thread:

A la Vasta

oh. derp.

Should I stay here tonight then?

I'd actually prefer you showed up.

Don't. If there is a scum left in aia (and it sounds like there is), then right now that person has to choose to either no-kill or else kill someone in aia, I assume. Either way they get caught. Or else they could come here, in which case we lynch them. No sense giving the last Aia scum more targets to shoot at; let him POE himself into a corner he can't get out of, or else do nothing and let Aia townies do the same thing with lynches.

[Yosarian2]

Oh he claimed roleblocker. any one else think he is a scum roleblocker?

Pretty unlikely. Assuming lastsurvivor flips scum, I can't really see how he could be. At the very least, if lastsurvivor flips bluescum, MOS is confirmed not-bluescum, I think.

I've already been confirmed not-anyscum via D1 lynches of both teams and how we interacted, so it doesn't really matter.

Not "confirmed", but I now think you're town so I'm not going to argue the issue.

Yes, yes, we know Lastsurvivor is likely scum, but don't rush the damn lynch, as we see twilights are draining on everyone's interests. I want a part in this wagon because I'm bitter and have been cheated off a delicious Tammy lynch. Don't you dare not give me this chance. :3

Eh. Once you get to a point where you know who you're going to lynch and you know what you're going to do, dragging the day out past that point produces very little information. Unless someone has a reason to not lynch lastsurvivor, there's really nothing left to discuss today until we see the lynch results.

[Yosarian2]

But why would he claim it

as scum? I know, double-hell-and-back WIFOM of "too stupid to be a claim by scum", but he actually protected me. His play makes no sense as scum right now.

Eh; when asked to massclaim, a scum with a confirmable power role will often claim the power role, even if he really shouldn't. That's why you see so many scum role-blockers claim roleblocker, scum unkillables claim bulletproof, ect. There are a lot of people who just instinctively keep their stories as close to the truth as possible.

I could see scum porting you around to try to get you mislynched. The telling point would have been, would he have claimed if you were at L-1 the next day and looked like you were about to get lynched for switching threads? That never came close to actually happening over here, though, so we don't really know. As it is, it could really go either way; I could see him acting like that as either scum or town.

[Yosarian2]

Also, I'm pretty sure that LastSurvivor's complete absence from the thread right now confirms him as scum if it wasn't obvious already, so that means we had 3 blue scum start in Vasta. I don't see why the same wouldn't be true for the other team.

Yeah, that seems like a reasonable assumption. That's abut what I'm picturing.

If LS was the last blue scum, and if there's only one scum left and they're in Aia, then I think we've won.