Name of the Wind, Conclusion

[Kinetic]

Hello! And Welcome, friends and soon to be friends! Certainly we need more wine before this little game we intend to play. I brought plenty for everyone, so let us get merry together!

Now, who brought an instrument? We could use some entertainment!

[Kinetic]

*Kinetic motions the bartender to pour three glasses of wine from the bottle he is carrying, and then leave the bottle.*

Camn, Konowa, please help yourself.

Now Camn, I've known Albert for quite a while. I would even say that although we had rough beginnings we have become friends. However, to your specific question, you will see that my own lack of comment was quite intentional.

[Kinetic]

*Indicates wine* "May I join you kind sirs?"

VOTE: PMyst

Of course, of course. The more the merrier. I'm afraid you will have to pour your own, as it appears we may have lost the bartender, but that shouldn't stop you, or anyone else. Plenty of glasses.

[Kinetic]

If real it's nice to have kinetic as very likely town.

Anyways while it is discrediting considering I don't believe it and by the looks of it others I just disagree it's scummy.

Explain the bolded.

Nexus, any comment outside of your obvious PL.

It's just what I said. I don't think calling the claim dumb is scummy.

Kinetic is that a PR?

VOTE: PM, pure policy vote.

And my question to you, good sir, is why must we drop all civility just because there are some of those among us that insist on acting uncivil. You know, I don't very much like your tone, and perhaps it is just me, but you are reaching for something here from me that I am very unwilling to give freely. Perhaps your motives are not pure.

Vote:Mehdi

[Kinetic]

While logic is a great tool, remember that it is only one of many tools. It is not very unlike an instrument in an orchestra. Truly, one can play a lute, or a violin, or a piano, and make absolutely beautiful music. In much the same way, I can discuss with you the finest points of logic, and dazzle you with the deductions we can make. But there are two failings with looking only to the instrument.

First, you neglect the musician. You must look beyond the words, beyond the songs, to see the deeper meaning. This cannot be seen logically, and must be seen emotionally. For our emotions and our acting upon them is what truly defines the way we will use this tool you call logic.

And second, you neglect the rest of the band, the other tools at our disposal. Surely we could play a game based entirely on logic, but we would forget so many important things. We would forget the magnificence a voice can bring to the music, singing upon the songs. We forget impending doom the percussion can drive the beat along. And in much the same, if we use logic as our only tool, we miss the subtleties of ourselves and our companions that make them human. And truly, I would much rather converse with a human rather than some, what is it they call them in the University? Some sort of doll or whatever they are.

Yes, Yes, it is certainly better with a song and a drink.

[Kinetic]

Truly, it is a mark of a good friend, you have their Konowa. Despite you saying you'd be willing to string Mehdi up to the rafters he still will come to your defense. Truly, good friends.

[Kinetic]

*Kinetic mulls over his glass of wine, taking a sip here and there*

Mehdi, you keep posting, but I can't seem to glean any content from your posts. It appears like you're trying to say nothing, but continue talking nonetheless. I've known many kings and politicians to do the same thing, and they are generally lying while doing so. I am quite comfortable to continue to vote for you, and would appreciate it if others would do the same.

[Kinetic]

Doesn't vote until fifth post, then claims it's policy, overdefensive and fluffy posting, plus overjustification, as well as a slight buddying towards you in post 116.

Slight budding? Well, oh my, the way those two are protecting each other and attacking anyone who shows the slightest interest in doing so you would think they knew they were on the same team. Or, maybe perhaps, they do know that...

[Kinetic]

Scooby and Mehdi

[Kinetic]

Yes kin defending someone you think is town or is being fosed for something dumb is allowed by town.

And that is where we disagree. How can you know someone is town Day 1, six pages in, when he has posted maybe 4-5 times? That reasoning is faulty. There is only one way to know without pre-game actions, and that is by being scum.

Additionally, his defense of you is equally suspect. The fact that both of you are painting your wagon as "full of scum" is just another trick that is scummy as hell as well.

You're hitting everyone of my red flags with increasing frequency. What started as an interesting pressure vote has become a very firm "I'm willing to lynch this person" vote.

[Kinetic]

Not to mention, there was barely any pressure on scooby at all. Your defending him is inappropriate normally, but with little to defend against it makes it clearly an overreaction.

[Kinetic]

A. I said one or two scum. Any large wagon on town is likely to have one or two scum. Do you disagree with that idea?

You're doing a normal scum tactic known as "painting the wagon". Its where a scum uses a distraction tactic of "Well I'm town, so my wagon must be scum". The fact remains though, that it doesn't mean anything.

If you want to say in the abstract "Does a large wagon on a town sometimes contain scum", than sure, that hypothetical is certainly a possibility. But that is a gross misrepresentation of what is currently occurring here. First, there is no indication you're town. Second, the wagon is only 3 or 4 votes large (Preview Edit: It appears to be 5 now, still in the pressure stages imo). Large enough for decent pressure, but with 9 votes needed to lynch hardly a "large" wagon at all. Lastly, you're using a poor logical fallacy (appealing to probability) to defend yourself and you actions. That isn't going to help you at all with getting rid of this pressure.

B. I didn't say scooby was town (please quote when and the first part of that line refers to my town read on kon). I think him being fosed for I'll post later is bs.

Misrepping isn't nice kin.

Well, oh my, the way those two are protecting each other and attacking anyone who shows the slightest interest in doing so you would think they knew they were on the same team. Or, maybe perhaps, they do know that...

Scooby and Mehdi

Yes kin defending someone you think is town or is being fosed for something dumb is allowed by town.

I called you and scooby out for buddying. You said that "Defending someone you think is town" is what you were doing. Therefore, you said that your defense of scooby is because you think he is town. There is no misrepresentation there. The fact that scooby has come to defend you reinforces my points quite nicely.

[Kinetic]

My only concern with your point Kinetic is that I think scooby is a better player than to be obviously buddying.

Hence why I'm more concerned about Mehdi and my vote is there instead of on scooby. I'm concerned by scooby, but Mehdi is much more concerning.

[Kinetic]

Did you read that point. I specifically said defending someone you think is town refers to kon.

That isn't clear at all from your post. You are responding to me who never mentioned Kon, never asked you about Kon, nor intended to bring Kon up. Why would you respond to me calling you out for buddying to scooby by saying that Kon is town and that's why you're buddying to... scooby.

And yes probability is useful (the wagon was at 6 votes and I definitely consider that and even now for it being a large wagon). And if you're going to continue with this theory that all who defend me are scum well that's also a horrible concept.

Is that what I said? Please pull that quote out where I said everyone who defends you is scum.

[Kinetic]

No, but that's the main thing your attacking scooby for (well the connection between him and me).

I think the parentheses saying "(please quote when and the first part of that line refers to my town read on kon)" should have been clear. Anyway you were attacking me for 'knowing scooby's alignment' and the post you refer to where I supposedly say he's town comes after that even if you misread it.

Chronological Order, because you seem to be not getting this.
[Scooby asks Nexus for case on Mehdi]
[Nexus makes claims against Mehdi, including Mehdi buddying up toward scooby]
[Kinetic comments that its more then slight buddying between the two]
[Kinetic confirms he was talking about the buddying between Scooby and Mehdi]
[Mehdi responds to Kinetic, saying that its "ok to defend someone you think is town"]
[Kinetic now finds that Mehdi's reasoning for defending scooby makes him even MORE scummy than just the buddying up claim.]

At no point did Kinetic ever bring up Konowa. Ever.

Kinetic was only interested in Mehdi and Scooby.

It is very very very easy to believe that the first paragraph of your post was on a different subject than your second paragraph.

Your second paragraph was supposed to be a reply to my comment that you and Scooby were buddying up.

Can you seem to understand why it makes no sense for your reply to me to have anything to do with Konowa yet?

No? Well, I can understand how you could misunderstand. If you can't even see how the misunderstanding could happen makes me think you're being dense for the sake of being dense.

Either way, you're scum.

[Kinetic]

The last chronological point should read...

[Mehdi claims to have been saying he thinks Konowa is town]

Which then begs the question... Why are you defending scooby?

[Kinetic]

Yup, you're being intentionally dense. I already said that I could understand why you think what you're saying is correct, but if you can't even make a similar concession than I can only assume that you're intentionally being obstructionist.

[Kinetic]

People who have voted for Mehdi, or indicated they would: Panzer, Kinetic, ABR, DN, camn, DCLXVI, Nexus, Konowa

People who Mehdi think are scum: Panzer, Kinetic, ABR, DN, DCL, Nexus

People Currently voting for Mehdi: Panzer, Kinetic, ABR, DN, DCL

People who are currently not voting for Mehdi, or have unvoted him, that Mehdi says he is leaning toward believing is town: Konowa, Camn

Is anyone else noting a pattern here? This is text book painting the wagon.

[Kinetic]

Kin did you read properly. I think dn is town. And the four of you (kin, panzer, etc) are all null and it's really just gut that has some slightly above others.

Apologies about DN. For some reason I thought you said he was the scummiest person on your wagon before, but it looks like that was someone else.

As for everything else, I see that as you backing off your "reads" because you're being called out on it. You basically labeled the entire wagon as possible scum because they were voting for you and I'm feeling pretty sure that you're scum right now.

[Kinetic]

Seriously, this medhi wagon is FUCKING TERRIBAD.

Is anyone else noting a pattern here? This is text book painting the wagon.

Is this a scumtell or something? If so, why?

Yes it is a scum tell, especially for newer players. Because doing this is not scum hunting, nor is it providing reasons why a vote is poor. It is a quick and easy way for someone receiving pressure to discredit the people voting for them and try to alleviate pressure. It is especially strong because scum

know

who are town, and can then supplement their "scum" reads with "town" reads on players who are not yet on the wagon or who are undecided. This is why Mehdi's call of town on Konowa, who is not on the wagon but could join it, is another scumtell in my book. Mehdi has attempted to back off this after I called him out on it, but I'm not fooled. I see scum squirming and I intend to push.

Mehdi has had some town tells as well, but for right now those aren't important. Its too early in the game to read a lot into everything. At this time I feel he is the strongest case for being scum and I'm going to continue to pursue it.

[Kinetic]

Be clear on what I'm backing off. I still think kon is town. Let's make a nice list:

Town
Kon
camn
dn
scooby (yeah I realize this is a non previously stated read, but I do agree with it)
weaker extent theo since from his two posts he's not really blending in much which also first stated now

Null
Pretty much the rest with varying degrees of lean

Scum
Nexus- check 122

We are clear that is what you're saying now. My contention is that this is not what you said before being called out.

Just so we're clear.

[Kinetic]

Camn: I am a bit confused as well... How can Mehdi fail your test, you being about to "crush him", and yet you then conclude he is town at the end of the post. Until your last paragraph I thought you were about to vote Mehdi.

[Kinetic]

UNVOTE

I think we need a good bandwagon to get more comments going. I can't tell who's scum right now.

Mehdi is, get the fuck back on the wagon!

[Kinetic]

Kinetic, dont be thick.

ABR- DCLXVI.

I'm not being thick, I'm asking a question and I'd appreciate you answering it. Was there a change of heart mid-post...

[Kinetic]

Kinetic.
There WAS no flaw. It was actually one of the most thoughtful comments of the game, and really the post that flipped me to town on him. The threat was entirely bluster. But Medhi reacted as a townie would (wifom I know).. and MORE importantly, DCLXVI reacted like SCUM would. He ignore this impending 'scum-slip' I was offering and tried to SLIP IN A VOTE before the townie fury poured out of me.


tl:dr:
Medhi overtly 'failed' my test, then DCLXVI piled on.... but without comment.
My test was actually a test of the scum-in-the-wings... which DCLXVI failed.

I didn't understand, I asked for clarification. Thank you for the clarification, next time I would appreciate a bit more civility though and less being talked down to.

[Kinetic]

Lurker Report:

Leiskyrie: 5 posts
Theomoaner: 2 posts (claims V/LA until Yesterday. Hasn't posted in 4 days.)
WrathChild: 4 posts
SB: 2 posts
PMysterious: 2 posts (Replacing Out)

For now it looks like the Mehdi wagon is going to have to wait until later. I still think that he's scum, but I'm not one to let my vote get useless. Should the wagon reform I will be on it. Until then, let's do some lurker hunting!

Unvote; Vote: SB

I don't have an opinion on the other wagons right now as I need to read a bit more about them and don't have the time right this moment. Expect a lot more time this weekend and hopefully I won't have to make a choice until then.

[Kinetic]

Unvote: SB

Pending replacement.

And yes, not forgetting who is lurking is important. While it can be a "null" vote in many ways, I've seen way too many scum hide behind the lurking mask to just let lurkers go untested.

Scooby: As I said before, posts of substance will have to wait until the weekend. I should be able to make a better post Friday or Saturday.

[Kinetic]

MattP: I'm not OK with you calling for a Doc Protect/Holding information hostage. Once the Mehdi lynch is guaranteed I hope you'll release that information because in the unlikely event of your death the town would be much more hurt by your lack of candor. Plus, if you're a mason as you claim, that is generally not a huge doc target, especially if we have other power roles available. I, however, will not direct the doc.

Your other items seem good though. Re-

Vote:Mehdi

Let's go.

[Kinetic]

Oh and I shouldn't be doc'd because of my role, I should be doc'd because I am going to push the scum lynches.

As all town should and will. I'm just having trouble with you directing the doc. There is a much stronger scum reason to direct the doc than town one. Especially if the direction is not role based. As much as I feel for your "I don't want to die" mentality, sometimes that's not in the town's best interest.

Could we leave it at that and let the scum WIFOM as much as they want now. And let's be honest, if you give up your "information" you both reduce the likelihood for the mafia to target you, and increase the town's chances for winning.

[Kinetic]

If you are a mason why did you decide to claim right away? I don't see how that is beneficial to the town.

Also, why no RVS?

vote:PMysterious

, last on the list.

Vote: DCL

Why hasn't this happened already?

Konowa/DN/scooby/Leiskyrie all town~

Mehdi probScum.

Nexus avoiding both DCL and ABR is scummy.

Wrath is less certain but still probTown.

Theomoaner, though. Jeez. Scum.

unvote vote mehdi

Waaay too defensive.

Nexus redeems himself. Mehdi moved to more scum than themoaner.

Done.

Your lack of lynching of Mehdi is noted.

[Kinetic]

With all this push for scum Mehdi, I notice a distinct lack of votes. ABR, Vox, I'm looking at you.

[Kinetic]

Vote:MattP

He's scum. Lynch him or me. Hell if he's not scum, lynch me tomorrow.

Aren't you

masons

neighbors with him?

[Kinetic]

What's a Sympathist?

Its the magic power in the Name of the Wind Universe. As for what it does in game, I have no idea, but I assume he was pretty powerful.

[Kinetic]

I am leaning toward Albert's reasoning right now. I would like a bit more clarification from Panzer before my vote though.

[Kinetic]

/facepalm

Both Panzer and MattP are retarded for taking a bad gambit that Albert and I did to get out of the RVS and then

doubling down

and claiming it as if it were the truth and then GOING TO NIGHT without correcting it.

And if you'll notice, when Albert and I did it, I never confirmed it or lied to the town. I was intentionally evasive about it because I knew Albert would back off it when the time came to get serious. The fact that BOTH of you failed this basic test of towniness makes me hate the both of you immensely.

Frankly, I want to lynch both of you right now. However, at the same time, I feel like you're both just being stupid and not scummy. No vote from me at this time, let's look for scum and not idiots.

[Kinetic]

Thats it. Lynch both of them. I'm tired of being dragged around like this. Drop the bullshit right now.

[Kinetic]

Im going to call the SCUM TEAM RIGHT NOW because I AM THAT GOOD:

Kinetic, DCL and Deathnote

Unvote Matt Vote Deathnote

If you didn't have Kinetic, who would you have? I can't really agree on Kinetic, but the other two I can see the case.

Being Kinetic, this is self-serving, but I feel the same way. Right now my only feeling toward scooby is probably OMGUS. I am a little bit put off by how he couldn't see the Mehdi case, but the fact that he was right puts me more to null territory with that. (Town reasoning: Better townie radar, Scum reasoning: He knows who is town, and thus can overlook the "scummyness" for town cred. Results in a null call in my book)

I'm curious who you have on your list assuming I'm town Scooby.

I'm doing some reading, and I'm starting to agree that DeathNote looks a bit scummier than DCL and after some more reading my vote may wind up there.

[Kinetic]

Im going to call the SCUM TEAM RIGHT NOW because I AM THAT GOOD:

Kinetic, DCL and Deathnote

Unvote Matt Vote Deathnote

Wait, didn't you have a 'guilty' on MattP? How is he not on your speculative scum team?

[Kinetic]

Or you just don't ask that and ignore him like the rest of us. He's a fucking idiot.

Or lynch him.
The fact that he did it before as town.... and presumably got away with it?
That inclines me more toward scum-gambit.

WHAT IS THIS SHIT?

How in hell can this incline you toward scum.gambit? Normal reasoning would be to assume null tell????

To all of you, fuckers, let me tell you that last time I did this, I caught some scumz, so this is not "OMG YOU ARE AN IDIOT". Seriously FUCK IDIOCY.

So far with my post, DCL jsut got confirmed scum status (

lol he did as town, he must be town again

, is scum reasoning trying to appear helpful, buddying up to me) which at the same time means

that MattP is town if DCL is scum

.

I don0't buy this crap of "I HAVENT SEEN A GAMBIT BEFORE, SO WHAT ARE YOU TRYING TO DO HERE" from experienced players like camn and Kinetic. This means that one of them is scum if not both.

I don't agree with "gambits" that revolve around faking results and lying to the thread. If DCL, the very same person you're accusing of being scum, didn't have a very timely post showing you did this idiotic shit before the VERY next post, I'd have lynched you outright for that kind of bullshit. I don't tolerate that shit. If I were in the game you were in when you pulled this shit the first time I'd have suicide focused you even if it cost me the game because

that is something a townie should never, ever do.

I agree with the reasoning that since you got away with it once, it is something you might do again to "prove" you're town. The fact that DCL is the one that is basically saving your ass from lynch right now, again, does not sit well with me. The further fact that you're actually failing to see the massive scumminess of this further not looking well for you.

I am sick and tired of these bullshit "gambits". It stops right the fuck now. MattP, Persh, scooby, in any game I've played previously if someone had fake claimed like that and been proven wrong I'd have lynched them immediately and if it turned out they were town blasted them in endgame for being a shitty townie. As town

you do not fucking lie

. That is your ONLY job. You

do not lie

. If you can't handle that, you are hiding something. And that means you're scum in my book.

Fuck this,

Vote: scooby

.

I keep ignoring my own radar because "its a gambit" yada yada, but no, my instincts are that you Lynch all Liars. Especially ones that are unrepentant about their lies.

[Kinetic]

@kinetic, do you want scooby lynched simply because he lied about the guilty or do you actually think he is scum?

Why the hell do you keep coming to scooby's defense?

[Kinetic]

Why the hell do you keep coming to scooby's defense?

I think he is town. Now stop avoiding my question.

Look, the goal of this game when I last checked was for town to lynch

scum.

As anti-town as scooby is acting he is not

scum.

In fact, one or more of the people pushing for his lynch are very likely to be scum hopping on the easy target.

No, YOU stop acting anti-town by pushing me off from questioning Scooby. I've got a legitimate gripe with a player and you're being distracting by trying to paint me off him

before he even responds to any of the pressure

. The goal of the game is to

gain information

. By you defending a player like this you are

preventing us from gaining valuable information on scooby

. I refuse to answer any of your questions because they are stupid and anti-town.

Good day.

[Kinetic]

There is a big difference between what ABR did in the first post of the game and what scooby did. Additionally, ABR rescinded his "claim" as soon as RVS was done. I didn't lie, I merely allowed you to draw your own conclusions. I was waiting to see where Albert went with it. Would I have disclaimed it if he didn't say anything? Yes. Because I won't lie to the town. Will I get out of the way and see what he is doing first so I don't ruin something a potentially townie player is doing? Yes. That's what town is supposed to do.

Let's look at the other things that are happening. Matt claimed neighbor with Panzer. Did Panzer get out of the way, but not confirm the claim to see where Matt was going with it? No. Panzer LIED and went along with it. My issue is more with Panzer's confirmation lie than with Matt's "intentional" claim slip.

If you noticed, I DID call Matt and Panzer out for what they did.

But again, what they did was not worse than scooby. You do not fake claim results and get away with that shit. Nor do I take threats that if I don't unvote you, I must be not town. That REEKS of scum bull shit to me. I am most upset with Amrun and DCL though, because I'd like scooby to defend his own play, but instead he doesn't. He uses logical fallacy after logical fallacy. And to add to it, Amrun and DCL are defending him

before he even responds

. Let me explain something very simple. When someone is applying pressure when someone else makes an

obvious scumslip

you do one of two things. You help apply pressure or you get the fuck out of the way. You do NOT tell the person how to react, and you do NOT defend the person.

FOS: Amrun and DCL

Vote stays where it is.

[Kinetic]

Here, let me explain simpler.

You are not pointing out inconsistencies. I have explained why my play is consistent.

I do not know whether scoot is town or scum, but his actions and reactions have been scummy. I would like to see more but if other people keep getting in the way I'm going to start to believe their obstructionism is buddying.

I've already explained why it's a scum slip. Both camn and Albert agree with the logic behind it.

Now, I am holding back some other reasons because I want to see scoobys reactions and see if they align with town or scum reactions. Right now I can tell you that

your reaction

is more consistent with scum Amrun.

Now, if you are town, kindly, shut the fuck up and stop defending scooby. Thank you.

[Kinetic]

You're missing the point. I am not stopping scooby from reacting to your posts. I do not know your alignment and you're not making any sense. Explaining things does not mean your explanations make sense, and so far, your explanations are paltry.

Let's put it this way:

Player Y casts aspersions on Player X
Player Z thinks the basis of Player Y's attacks are not valid, questions Player Y's alignment

You are proposing that Player Z says absolutely nothing about the situation for no discernible reason.

You are preventing Xs reactions by questioning Y's motives. X no longer has to react because Z is reacting for him. X can now not make any reaction, or wait until Z has forced Y to explain exactly what Y is looking for. Then, when X learns this, X can either a) react exactly as Y says will look town, or b) use Z's reasoning to protect himself. You are actively tainting any information I can gain from scooby by continuing this.

[Kinetic]

Z questioning Y's motives in NO WAY stops X from reacting to Y. You are seriously saying that no one can question anyone else's attacks. It's just silly. It's hogwash. I don't know you are town and I won't treat you as if I do.

And here is where we differ. You aren't questioning my motives, you're questioning the pressure in and of itself. You're going so far as to derail the pressure on scooby and redirect it onto me. How dare I question the person who fake claimed results.

Do you see how absurd that sounds?

[Kinetic]

And you say you don't know if I'm town. Fine, I agree. Assuming you're town you won't know that. But you don't know scooby is town either and right now you're preventing that information from being learned. That's an anti-town position.

[Kinetic]

Vote: Amrun

?

Maybe but not yet. Amrun's scumminess is tied to scooby. I want more from scooby first. He's being quiet.

[Kinetic]

You must be questioning the attack and not just motivations because of timing. You could just as well question my motives for pressuring scooby after the pressure is finished or after scooby gives his responses. By interrupting the pressure you implicitly have made a judgment that either you've already decided my motives are impure, and therefor you must derail the pressure; or, you don't care about my motives and just want to derail the pressure for impure motives.

Even in the former case, that is an anti-town position to take.

[Kinetic]

Wrong. You asked scooby NO questions. You did nothing but take the lamest possible LaL position. I'm not going to go, 'Wait, maybe kinetic is only posting the dumbest thing in the world because he is town reaction testing scooby!' I assumed you were smart enough to know that that was stupid and never going to garner any reliably usable reaction from scooby.

But that doesn't even matter, because no matter what questions I asked you, scooby still had to respond to your case, which he did. I did nothing to derail any pressure besides "question someone who has voted for someone else." If one cannot question someone who has voted someone else, there is no game and we are not playing it; we're just sticking our thumbs up our asses. I didn't DECIDE your motives were impure. I wanted to SEE if they were impure. Sitting around on my ass was not going to accomplish that.

I would understand your position a little more if you had asked scooby some questions. You did not. If you think the standard practice of the game is 'Player X posts case on Player Y. no one else posts until player y posts 'sacre bleu!'' then your meta is sadly outdated.

You're straw manning my arguments. Again. I'm done with you. You're not trying to understand my arguments, you're trying to make them as scummy as possible.

[Kinetic]

Why do you think what you're doing makes you look scummy?

Do you seriously think THIS is what I think.

No, of course you don't. This is simply the perfect example of you twisting my words to try to make it look like what I'm doing (pressuring a player that faked results of a claim) as scummy.

How is there a town motive to that?

The problem with your arguments is not that you are gathering evidence and drawing a conclusion, you've already drawn your conclusion, and now are cherry picking evidence to suit your conclusion.

[Kinetic]

Why do you think what you're doing makes you look scummy?

Do you seriously think THIS is what I think.

No, of course you don't. This is simply the perfect example of you twisting my words to try to make it look like what I'm doing (pressuring a player that faked results of a claim) as scummy.

How is there a town motive to that?

The problem with your arguments is not that you are gathering evidence and drawing a conclusion, you've already drawn your conclusion, and now are cherry picking evidence to suit your conclusion.

But you see, I'm not cherry picking at all. that's what you're doing. of course i don't think that you are trying to look scummy. But your reaction is an absolutely perfect example of you being scummy on accident.

pressuring a player you think is scummy is great. pressuring a player because he made a perceived play 'bad move' without thinking he is scum is not. The former is townish, and the latter is scummy while trying to appear townish, which is the most scummy of all.

I made a very open-ended statement about your obvious inconsistencies. your immediate answer was to omgus and dive off the deep end with feelings of persecution.

my initial thought was actually that you are town because you were making such an obvious overture with scooby. i didn't think scum would make such an obviously bad attack on purpose. too risky.

but i wanted to see what you said.

and i got an answer i didn't expect. you're scared. you assume people suspect you. you have extremely heightened paranoia about self perception.

that's scummy, bro

That isn't it AT ALL. I'm not scared of you. I'm fucking pissed off at you. I'm trying to pressure SCOOBY, and instead you're DISTRACTING THE WHOLE FUCKING THREAD!!!! This isn't OMGUS. I haven't voted for you, and I have even told others not to. I didn't have a read on you then and I wanted to pursue what I felt was the best lead I had to look at scum. But guess what, you're right, I have found a better target.

You noted "inconsistencies", and was using those attacks to attack the credibility of my attack on scooby. I explained those inconsistencies, and instead of acceptingt hat and moving on you have kept on keeping on. Despite me basically begging you to shut the fuck up and let me deal with Scooby.

You know what. Fuck this. You're right, I haven't been able to deal with scooby. Because scum has been distracting me too much.

Unvote; Vote: Amrun

Apparently you can't listen to reason. I've tried everything I can think of to get you to leave off until we could actually, you know DETERMINE IF THE PERSON WHO FAKE CLAIMED WAS SCUM. It isn't a bad attack when three other people AGREE WITH ME. (Camn, Albert, and I assume Vox)

But you won't. You must be scum.

[Kinetic]

you fosed me. why are you playing the semantics game?

i asked you a QUESTION. what have you done to determine if scooby is scum? what did you determine from his reaction to your case?

people agreeing with you doesn't make it a good attack. fyi.

I refuse to answer your questions because I'm still waiting for reactions. If you haven't noticed, I'm still arguing with you to shut up, so, idk, maybe... I haven't been able to analyze a response where scooby hasn't been being defended by other players? O wait. That's right, the one thing I'm complaining about you doing!

You're asking questions that I can't possibly have answers to because YOU ARE STOPPING THE PRESSURE! Are you so dense? Really!?

[Kinetic]

And people agreeing with me at least means that the argument is valid and other people would like to see where the pressure leads. You're asking for answers to questions that I might be able to answer AFTER I actually get what I want from scooby, but you want the answers BEFORE I gather any evidence. You want me to draw a conclusion NOW before I gather evidence. That's not how I play. That may be how you play, but it isn't how I play. If I see something suspicious, I poke at it. I don't make a determination about scum/town until a lynch is possible.

Votes are just another way to add pressure. But I wouldn't vote to lynch (i.e., if the wagon got too big before I was sure, I'd unvote).

[Kinetic]

scooby already posted a reaction. why are you ignoring it?

but if you are still waiting for something, then i'm okay with waiting for an answer. but i do want an answer, eventually.

p-edit; what? so voting and saying something is an 'obvious scumslip' STILL doesn't mean you think scooby is scum/ fencesit mcfencesitter

this is why i have an issue with things. you say things like 'you must not play this way' but preface it with 'you are scum'. that appeals to my logic, my goodwill, saying, 'we are just thinking differently.' that does NOT jive with thinking i am scum.

you have no real conviction. if scooby made an 'obvious' scumslip, you'd never be voting me for what amounts to a theory disagreement.

One or two posts is not the whole of the reaction. It is one or two posts. He hasn't had to do anything really yet because first DCL, than you were protecting him.

This is the first time you've actually made any indication to backing off. I never said I'd never answer any questions, only that your timing was way too premature and you needed to back off so we could get honest reactions for the person I was actually intent on pressuring. Now, can we drop this.

unvote; vote: scooby

[Kinetic]

And just because someone made a slip doesn't mean that they're 100% scum in my book. It means that they are deserving of pressure. What I have been saying ALL ALONG. I'm not going to say X = 100% scum unless I actually 100% know that. I'm going to develop information, and if it doesn't work out now, at the very least I'll have more to look at later in the game.

[Kinetic]

And btw, I'm completely OK if you want to also lead pressure or assist on pressure for other players. (DCL and Deathnote seem to be targets others have brought up). My point isn't so much not to do anything while there is pressure on a player, so much as do not derail that pressure unless you have a very very good reason to do so. (You know the person leading the pressure is scum, or the person being pressured is town). Those are the only acceptable reasons to derail pressure in my book. At least, before they get to "threshold" pressure, and at that point it turns from pressure to an actual call to lynch.

Do you sort of understand what I'm getting at, because I don't know if I explained it all correctly.

[Kinetic]

i understand what you're saying, but completely disagree with you about what constitutes derailing pressure.

Well, let's agree to disagree for now. Until then, wanna help put some coals under scooby's feet? He's gotten a bit more quiet than I like and maybe getting him to Lynch -3 will wake him up and make him angry. I'd like to poke him while he is angry.

[Kinetic]

i understand what you're saying, but completely disagree with you about what constitutes derailing pressure.

Well, let's agree to disagree for now. Until then, wanna help put some coals under scooby's feet? He's gotten a bit more quiet than I like and maybe getting him to Lynch -3 will wake him up and make him angry. I'd like to poke him while he is angry.

What the fuck do you want? I posted yesterday. I seriously don't plan to make this thread a wallotext war with no added value. I think you are obnoxious town and I know I am town, so I don'0t plan to give luker scumbags a way to hide.

I'll tell you something, though. Stop playing mafia like a retarded theory-boy. LAL is a stupid theory. Pretty much all that theoretic shit does not apply to practical mafia. Hunt motivations, actions, inconsistencies. EVERYONE does scummy shit all the time. But only scum have something behind those actions.

You have absolutely no idea about my meta do you?

Wow, I don't think anyone here does. This is going to be a lot more fun than I anticipated.

[Kinetic]

The difficulty with "hunting a motivation" is that motivations are rarely, if ever, apparent. The trick to determining a motivation is to look at the person's actions. It is the weirdest thing to actually learn about because a seasoned prosecutor and a seasoned defense attorney will tell you the same thing. Motives are rarely straight forward.

Right now, the reason I'm putting your feet to the fire scooby is not because of LAL. Its a decent theory, but I agree, it has many flaws. Sometimes there are valid reasons to lie to the game as town. I've done it before when I felt like it was absolutely needed, and so far I've got a pretty good record of being right. (In my case, since it was so long ago and I doubt anyone will actually check, my most famous "gambit" as town was claiming I was completely NK-immune, when in fact I was only semi-NK immune. I convinced the scum to not target me at night, despite the fact that my role allowed me to control the lynches during the day completely as long as I was not targeted for a night kill. If I was targeted, I didn't die, but I lost control of the lynches during the day.)

But there is a fundamental difference when you claim to have effectively "mod knowledge" on someone else. Once you do that, you're basically saying there is a scum among the two people on the block. Either the person being focused, or the person doing the focusing. But you lied about that, throwing that all out the window. The reason I'm picking on you specifically is because of the motivations of WHY you would do something so monumentally stupid like that. And I've come up with two. The first, that you actually think that is an acceptable "gambit". It isn't. Never, ever do it again.

The second, that you think its a "null" gambit, but one that actually favors you to be more "townie". Frankly, I think this motivation is more likely. You wanted to get "town" cred by doing something that was effectively a bit scummy. This is where I'm trying to delve.

The problem I'm having is you constantly calling your own "gambit" a "null tell". Like repeating that will make it so. This isn't a null tell. It actually reveals a LOT about how you think. It says you are reckless, that you don't actually care about the results, and it also shows that you're willing to take unacceptable risks. The issue becomes, are you more likely to be this way as town or scum. I don't know your other games and I don't want to look them up. I hate that type of scum hunting and I don't do it. It leads to inconsistent results at best. The only "outside" information I have about this type of gambit being pulled by you before is that you did it as town and for some odd reason when it proved false you were not lynched post-haste.

Now, you think this is a null-tell, but it actually isn't anymore. Its a scum-tell. Why? Because you now have a proven reason to believe that you can push someone's lynch with this type of attack, but at the same time, end up not getting lynched. That is a scum motivation if I ever saw one. And it is just crazy enough that most people will overlook it and claim it says nothing about you. But it does.

I've gone over it in my head a lot, and frankly, I'm not sure if you're town or scum. I keep coming to opposite conclusions. What I am sure about is I want to know if

you

believe this is an acceptable? Will you ever lie or fake claim as a cop with results again scooby?

[Kinetic]

Someone give me a rundown of the case on DCL - AV and WC are pinging my scumdar more.

QFT. I'm trying to figure out why.

[Kinetic]

Good show DN. I like these points. No vote from me right now, but I'm going to be keeping an eye here and seeing how Amrun responds.

[Kinetic]

didn't you make a half-decent case on her last page

Yes, hence why I'm liking this case. But she just got three votes in succession. That puts her tied with the largest wagon, and certainly enough to evoke a response. No need to worry about someone getting gung-ho and watching a quick lynch. Consider my support for the wagon here, but my vote not yet.

[Kinetic]

I'm not liking Amrun at all right now. Where are we on his lynch vote wise? He might be close based on the last couple votes and I don't want to lynch on mistake. I will be voting Amrun though, so Amrun, if you have a claim make it soon.

[Kinetic]

Are you still voting Scooby, Kin?

Currently, yes. I'm waiting for his response to my last question, but otherwise I'm ok to wait on him for now.

[Kinetic]

I don't give a shit about a claim. Hammer away.

I do. This is where my strengths come in. No matter what he claims I'll probably hammer, but I work well in themes rather than normal games for a reason .

[Kinetic]

If Amrun was an investigative role she would have been more curious as to what Panzer was doing to MattP. She is worthless. Hang Amrun and throw the body in a ditch.

Everyone else I could assume just doesn't know me or my meta. You, on the other hand, have been there. You see how I break games when I get too much information. Why are you begging for a hammer when I'm telling you that I want more information?

[Kinetic]

I don't remember. In the last game we played, we were both scum, like Amrun is right now.

It has been a while. I can't even remember what game that was now. Well, either way, I want a claim.

[Kinetic]

What's your role name scum?

vote: amrun

[Kinetic]

are you honestly retarded

I don't believe your claim, at all. To add to it, it's not even complete. You're stalling. Die scum.

[Kinetic]

Bullshit. Doc claim = death. Camn, you know the old school rules. Even if she isn't lying she's as good as useless now. There are hundreds of reasons scum claim doc and your unvote is why it will STILL be used by scum day in and day out.

Not to mention, Doc makes NO sense for Devi. Devi has absolutely NO doctor-type skills. Her claim to fame in the book is the fact that she runs and underground money lending business and uses the magic in the universe to KILL PEOPLE AT A DISTANCE if they don't pay up.

Amrun must die NOW.

[Kinetic]

I wasn't 100% before, but now I am. Amrun must die.

[Kinetic]

are you not paying attention? i said i'm a MONEYLENDER. the flavor justification has nothing to do with being a doctor. it's loaning out money to protect them. but effectively, it is a doctor. i asked when i replaced in just to make sure and mod said yes.

That would maybe make sense if the mafia kill flavor was "expulsion" from the university. It isn't. Its actual death. Money lending, even flavorfully, doesn't make sense.

But that is besides the point. That's just a meta justification. You still were extremely suspicious IN the claim, and then to make matters worse, you claimed doc. You are completely useless to the town. EVEN IF you're a real doc and not lying, you're an extraordinary liability to town now. That is why docs are lynched upon the claim.

[Kinetic]

Amrun, how about you stop insulting people and start scumhunting?

Because she's caught scum. Lynch her!

[Kinetic]

kinetic, what makes it cool for you to vote for me while i'm trying to get something out of wrathchild but not for me to talk to you while you're trying to get something out of scooby? or for nexus to do it?

Different cases entirely. When I was going after scooby, nothing was happening at all. The case against you grew organically from DeathNote and I think it was Nexus. You went after me right as I started to go after scooby. It wasn't organic, it was just "Hey! Look at me!".

I'm being completely consistent, but just because you don't agree doesn't mean I'm not being internally consistent.

p-edit: my pm did say something about expulsion. either way, talking about my flavor is honestly stupid. literally, stupid. and i'm not caught scum and saying so is RIDICULOUS. you're arguing in the same breath that if i'm town i'm now useless and that i'm caught scum. it doesn't make sense.

obviously my efficacy is lessened. i still would do better eating a night kill than giving scum a free one.

First: No it isn't. If you know anything about me, know this. I've broken several Large Theme games. I haven't played in a while, but I was an absolute TERROR on mods. I broke a game and won it for town multiple times doing JUST what I'm doing now.

I agree that it likely isn't 100% here, and there is an outside possibility that the flavor is just there for flavor and these is no connection to the source material and gameplay elements. But that doesn't mean its stupid to explore it. Not at all.

Second: I'm sure you're scum. I'm arguing in the alternative to those naysayers who are not entirely sure. The fact is, EVEN IF you are town (which I don't believe), your usefulness to the town is 0. The only possible way you can be useful to the town is if you protect a kill. And EVEN THEN there is always the chance that scum faked the kill, no killed on purpose to "confirm" you or the person you protected, or there is another reason for a no kill and your claiming it anyway. You are a liability to the town now. As long as you're alive there will be doubts on whether you are scum. IF you are town its better to get rid of you NOW, early in the game, where those liabilities are least likely to cause us to lose the game out right.

We cannot afford to take you into LyLo. You must die. Either now or later. And its always better to kill someone sooner rather than letting the wound fester.

[Kinetic]

Ironically, if Amrun had claimed ALL of this in her first claim, I might have believed it, but because her claim becomes better put together as she learns more, or because someone says something, I can't believe it.

[Kinetic]

i just read it. i don't know what else you want.

wtf is this below:

my pm did say something about expulsion.

sorry, i thought it was clear from context. it says that my loan prevents expulsion.

kinetic, just stop.. you are so wrong. you are doing nothing bout spouting theory that doesn't translate to reality. a) i would have normally looked up my role pm first and claimed it all together, but ABR WAS THREATENING TO HAMMER ME WITHOUT A CLAIM. so i did not have the time to do this, or thought i didn't. i didn't think the flavor was all that important. b) your argument is that i'm 'making up' my flavor, which is fucking ridiculous. even if i was scum fakelcaiming, i would most certainly have mod provided flavor. you are being completely nonsensical.

Amrun - 5 (DeathNote, Albert B. Rampage, Nexus, camn, WrathChild)

The post BEFORE your claim. Albert was already voting you, had already voted you. I was the one with the hammer. The very hammer I said I would not swing until you claimed (assuming you were -1, which you weren't). The fact that your claim was rushed hurts you here because it reads exactly how a squirming scum would claim. Make the claim you think most likely to keep you alive while you thought of a way to justify it.

Nope, I'm sorry. These theories and set ups are how I play. I trust my instincts here and my instincts say you're squirming dead scum.

You can stop trying to convince me otherwise. Your better off trying to convince the others, because my vote sticks on you the rest of this day. You're caught scum in my book, and I will be pushing your lynch forever more unless you somehow survive and kill me tonight.

[Kinetic]

i very obviously didn't read the last page as i didn't realize i wasn't at l-1. i realized after i claimed.

i'm not trying to convince you specifically. i'm using your idiotic arguments to show everyone else why it doesn't make sense.

i didn't expect the claim to 'save' me. i wanted everyone to know before i died, though. if it comes out later that x targeted camn for a vig shot or something on n1 and camn didn't die, i didn't want her taking heat for that.

i really, really hate this game and i will enjoy flipping town.

Just because you don't like or agree with my arguments doesn't make them idiotic. Its quite the opposite really. The fact that you disregard them and there validity is the last nail in your coffin.

[Kinetic]

the argument that a doctor is useless after claiming is mostly true, but it doesn't count as a point towards lynch. it's just a reason the claim shouldn't paricularly deter a lynch. the flavor argument IS pretty universally idiotic in modern meta. fact.

The fact that it is mostly true is the reason for your lynch, if you haven't noticed. Its not even that you're useless, you're worse than useless. You're a liability to keep alive, even IF you were town. You help the entire town win more dead now than alive. That is the overriding fact. It is why you ALWAYS lynch a claimed doctor. 100%.

I'm not relying upon the flavor argument at all. I made mention of those things because they could have helped clear you. The points I'm using against you is how your claim started to evolve after it wasn't believed. That has nothing to do with the flavor, but rather how you reacted.

[Kinetic]

You're looking in the short term Amrun. Sure, assuming you're town, +1 town player in the game 'seems' like its always a net positive. But you're basically a ticking time bomb that will blow up and kill the town.

In the long term, let's assume there are three mafia. 16 player game probably has 4-5 anti-town roles. Depending on the power of the town. So 3-4 mafia is probably correct.

Right now we're at 13 players with only town among the dead. That means we could be looking at 8-9 town players remaining in the game. ASSUMING you are one of those town, you are officially the scummiest town member alive, meaning you will not "absorb" a scum kill. You will be in this game until the end. Scum will

not

kill you, except if they need one kill to win the game. That is the ONLY chance you have to "absorb" a scum kill.

THUS: Assuming we lynch someone else today, we enter Day 3 as so:

D3 = (assuming town lynch, no cross kills) 11 players: 4-5 scum, 5-6 other town, plus Amrun.
D4 = (assuming town lynch, no cross kills) 9 players, 4-5 scum, 3-5 town, plus Amrun.

This is, of course, worst case scenario. In this case, Game is Over Day 4 with 5 scum, Game is nearly over with 4 scum because Amrun is the liable townie in LyLo.

As opposed to the worst case scenario if you are lynched today and you are town which is:

D3 (assuming Amrun-town lynch, no cross kills) 11 players, 4-5 scum, 6-7 town
D4 (assuming town lynch, no cross kills) 9 players, 4-5 scum, 4-5 town.

Heading into Day 4 worst case scenario, we still auto lose to 5 scum, but it is unlikely they are all together. We don't auto-lose to 4 scum Day 4 though, as opposed to the case if you're still alive Amrun.

Now, I completely understand that many many other things could happen. There could be another killing role that hasn't been revealed yet. There could be a no-kill, a miss kill, etc etc etc. But no matter what, as long as you're alive Amrun you're suspected scum. That is NOT going away. You are quite literally a grenade right now, waiting to explode. Letting you live is the absolute WORST thing the town can do right now.

That is all assuming YOU are town. Which, frankly I don't believe. The point is that you are the right lynch no matter your alignment right now. I fervently believe that you're scum though, and will vote you until the end of time.

[Kinetic]

The personal insults, while entertaining, have taken a nasty turn. We need to stop.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=grenade

I totally did not mean it that way, lol. I meant the explosive kind on a timer.

[Kinetic]

The reason why flavor is somewhat important here is because Amrun claimed doc.

If she is telling the truth, then there is nothing she can do, yada yada. The issue becomes, she claimed the scummiest possible claim, with the hopes of surviving the day, with a flavor claim that only barely makes any sense. And it only made sense after I coached her into the claim basically. At best the flavor argument is a null tell. I take more from Amrun's reactions to the flavor argument more than the flavor argument itself.

[Kinetic]

unvote vote WrathChild

Let's do WC then, unless someone can convince me about DCL.

Stop trying to negotiate scum. Finish killing your buddy.

[Kinetic]

Actually the first time you've suggested I'm scum Kinetic. There is no harm leaving Amrun until tomorrow.

There is major harm to leaving it until tomorrow. If you were just ambivalent or weren't sure about it that's one thing, but you are actively trying to take people off the wagon. That is pinging my scumdar majorly.

[Kinetic]

She should not be left until the end. She should be left until tomorrow.

No, she shouldn't. If you have made up your mind to lynch her, she needs to go now. Waiting is anti-town. If you let her go, you own it. That's it.

[Kinetic]

she claimed the scummiest possible claim, with the hopes of surviving the day,

do you not see the problem with this logic

lol

Its scummy because it is an unverifiable role that can still avoid a lynch.

[Kinetic]

yeah that's not it

try again

Diescumdie?

[Kinetic]

she claimed the scummiest possible claim, with the hopes of surviving the day,

do you not see the problem with this logic

lol

Its scummy because it is an

unverifiable

role that can still avoid a lynch.

No, it's not.

Are you claiming that you have an ability that reveals role abilities? Because save that there is no way to verify a doctor claim. And don't tell me "no-kill" verifies a doc save. That's bullshit. At best it makes a new level of WIFOM. Trust me, I've contemplated no-killing as scum to "confirm" a partner.

[Kinetic]

I can't believe how stupid you're being Kinetic.

There is literally no reason why I would be hardcore defending MattP and then Amrun unless I knew something/would be able to do something.

Framer, Blackmailer, Roleblocker, Bus Driver, No-Block kills, Redirector, Delayed Kill

Those are all the ways you just could have fucked up. We're playing in a THEME GAME you absolute moron. There are hundreds of ways your simple little plan can fail. The correct play is to KILL AMRUN, keep yourself HIDDEN, and FIND FUCKING SCUM. You don't paint a fucking target on your face and then say O LOOK SCUM, YOUR GAMBIT MAY HAVE JUST WORKED HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA.

This isn't a fucking open game. This isn't a newbie game. This is the real mother fucking deal here. There are hundreds of roles that make what you're doing absolutely stupid. But did you think of that? No, you just fucking soft-claim and think I'm the stupid one.

[Kinetic]

I've contemplated no-killing as scum to "confirm" a partner.

scum no-killed against me the other day because I was being publicly jailkept.

I squirmed out of one lynch.. AND THEY DID IT AGAIN!

THIS. We aren't playing in a simple game. We aren't playing with set rules that always work. But there are smart plays, there are plays that you make as town that look toward the long-term health of the game. Town doesn't win by surviving. Town wins by making the smartest play so that if they are alive later they have laid the groundwork to win, or if they die they set up the rest of the town to win. Scum win in the short-term. Every time you make a decision based on a short term advantage or play you are playing into the scum game. That is why the correct play today is (or maybe was after Nexus's colossal screw up) to FUCKING KILL Amrun. Because EVEN IF SHE IS TOWN that is the #1 priority lynch target for the town. Because she no longer has any long-term value. At all.

unvote

While I contemplate Nexus's complete lack of common sense. I don't know if Amrun is the right lynch anymore, if only because Nexus may have painted the town into a corner.

[Kinetic]

I've contemplated no-killing as scum to "confirm" a partner.

scum no-killed against me the other day because I was being publicly jailkept.

I squirmed out of one lynch.. AND THEY DID IT AGAIN!

THIS. We aren't playing in a simple game. We aren't playing with set rules that always work. But there are smart plays, there are plays that you make as town that look toward the long-term health of the game. Town doesn't win by surviving. Town wins by making the smartest play so that if they are alive later they have laid the groundwork to win, or if they die they set up the rest of the town to win. Scum win in the short-term. Every time you make a decision based on a short term advantage or play you are playing into the scum game. That is why the correct play today is (or maybe was after Nexus's colossal screw up) to FUCKING KILL Amrun. Because EVEN IF SHE IS TOWN that is the #1 priority lynch target for the town. Because she no longer has any long-term value. At all.

unvote

While I contemplate Nexus's complete lack of common sense. I don't know if Amrun is the right lynch anymore, if only because Nexus may have painted the town into a corner.

[Kinetic]

Oh fuck off Kinetic you sanctimonious prick. Okay I ballsed up. Doesn't mean you have to be a twat about it. Fuck you.

You just contradicted yourself, "The best play is Amrun" "OH WAIT I'M NOT GOING TO VOTE AMRUN"

AurorusVox, read the fucking thread, or fuck the fuck off you useless sack of shit.

I didn't contradict myself, you soft claimed and fucked the best town play up. Now we have to think about the results of that.

And after thinking about it, I'm starting to think... Just how fucking powerful of scum might Amrun be if a buddy is willing to basically pull a game winning or losing gambit to have her live one more day? Because frankly, I don't 100% trust you Nexus. You asking for "one more day" screams of just stupid stupid shit. You DONT leave this type of claim "one more day". You either believe and and expect her to live until end game, or you fucking KILL HER. By asking for "one more day" with this plan, you pigeon-holed yourself into requiring to reveal yourself either today or tomorrow. Don't say my bull-headedness forced you into this. Amrun had to GO, and your failure to understand that and YOUR stubbornness caused this.

I'm still trying to decide if you're scum now Nexus, so I don't know if Amrun is the best play or not. If I decide I think you're scum Nexus, than Amrun is still the best play. If I decide you're town, Amrun might still be the best play though. Whats disconcerting is that we have lost a lot of town power already and we've pretty much guaranteed that you'll be useless as well. I can't help but think there is some sort of role that now that it knows who you are will give you a living hell. I almost think you're useless now too.

Let's start from here: No soft-claiming bullshit. Full claim now Nexus.

[Kinetic]

I don't blacklist people unless they are actually disruptive. You aren't at that level and I sincerely doubt you'll get to that level. That being said, soft-claiming hurts the town, full claim now and stop stalling scum.

[Kinetic]

How does this confirm Amrun if her actual role name is Moneylender, but he abilities are not doctor save?

[Kinetic]

vote:amrun

Still the best play based on that role imo. That being said, we might want to consider a mass claim. It would require the scum to kill or role block Nexus and may give other, maybe more powerful roles, opportunities tonight.

[Kinetic]

I dont like this plan at all. Roleblocker is by far the most common scum power role, and assuming they don't have a roleblocker they probably have some other form of something or other that will fuck this plan up.

[Kinetic]

Could a role cop be a scum role I wonder. :/ I think he's a role cop, but at the same time...

[Kinetic]

I haven't fully caught up, am v/la this weekend as usual, but I see that nexus has claimed something that confirms me or something and i am to protect him. that's fine. I'll fully catch up after the weekend.

It does nothing of the sort. It doesn't confirm you scum. You should still die today.

[Kinetic]

stop being retarded

i haven't read what he's claimed

i don't know

i saw something about it confirming me

i don't even know if it's true

shut up now thanks

No. I'll shut up when I live just long enough to be there when they cut off your head and stick it on a pike as a warning to the next ten games that some claims come with way too high a price. I would look up into your lifeless eyes and wave, like this [smiles and waves fingers]. Can you and your associates arrange that for me, Mr. Amrun?

[Kinetic]

I think Kinetic might be the one needing protection this game.
Nexus is just another vanilla townie now.

Even if there is a doc, I'm not the kind of player that is interested in directing him. Either way, I think we lynch Amrun today, expect Nexus to die tonight unless there is something someone can do to prevent that, and move on from there tomorrow.

[Kinetic]

Hold for claim please.

[Kinetic]

Kill Amrun. Kill Amrun now with fire and unvote grey. I have been having trouble with Amrun/Nexus mafia buddies, but I 100% believe in Amrun/Nexus as cult buddies. And Nexus's stupid suicidal protection of Amrun makes sense now if Amrun is cult leader.

[Kinetic]

wifom


WIFOM!!!!

Need to think.... I glanced over the theme but I can't really piece together what a cult would look like? Can someone who knows the series well help me out here???

Not wifom. I've said well before this claim that Nexus' play made no sense from a scum prospective. I specifically said that for it to make sense Amrun must have a powerful role that Nexus must want to protect. One where one more night could make the difference in the game. Well cult recruiter fits perfectly. Assuming the cult doesn't die when the recruiter dies, one more night buys one more recruit chance. And if it does die with the recruiter, well, it's obvious Nexus would want to save the recruiter.

Unvote gray while you decide. If Amrun is cult recruiter we don't need a quick hammer ending the day right now.

[Kinetic]

unvote

Flavor analyzer please?

I honestly don't know right now. It's been a while since I read both books. But it could make sense since there is a lot of politics in the books.

[Kinetic]

Unvote

This has to be thought out more.

The only cult candidates I can think of flavorwise are Ambrose or Master Hemme.

Come to think of it, why is Denna the Moneylender a doctor instead of Master Arwyl, who works in the Medica?

Ambrose does sound like the best cult leader candidate. But in this case Defi sounds like a safe claim.

[Kinetic]

Wait a minute, Nexus did not attempt any defense of Amrun in the beginning of day 2, to the contrary.

Also Amrun's hop onto the wagon was scummy as fuck.

He only jumped in after Amrun claimed doctor. It's HE who is the scum, trying to recruit the doctor. That's why he's so desperate to keep her alive today!

Unvote Amrun, vote Nexus

This... sounds plausible.

[Kinetic]

The only issue I have on the Nexus front is that, he has no motive to "save" the doctor. If he is cult recruiter, why wouldn't he just want someone dead, no matter who it is, as long as they aren't cult?

[Kinetic]

Nexus: This isn't a bastard game, so assuming Alarmist is true, there is a cult.

And... Actually, now that I think about it... Nexus's role cop makes more sense as a town role if there is a cult. Cult conversions generally change someone's role name...

[Kinetic]

Cult is not a bastard mechanic, so no, it doesn't have to be advertised as such. In fact, I think cult gets a bad rap. Its kind of a catch-22. If you say there is a cult in the game, the cult usually can't win, but if you don't say it, people get irrationally angry over it.

As for the lynch target, I really think Amrun needs to die. He is by far my biggest suspect. And, ironically, the mafia now have a reason to keep Nexus alive so he might not be the biggest target right now for them.

[Kinetic]

And Amrun, I'm sorry to hear that. Any animosity/yada yada yada we have extends only so far as the game. I sincerely am sorry for what happened and what you're going through, and hope the best for you and your family in this rough time.

[Kinetic]

Um.
I don't know what to make of all this cult stuff.
If Nexus is an Alarmist, that's meant to be a clue that there is cult, not that he himself is actually a cult?
In which case he isn't the biggest threat as it suggests he is not cult himself?

My concern is: why didn't he raise this yesterday?

Unvote; Vote: DCL

Why aren't we lynching DCL today?
My head hurts.



@Amrun - sorry to hear that (>'')>

Clueless scum is clueless?

Lynch Amrun now, Vox tomorrow? Got it.

[Kinetic]

@Kin, why would I be more likely to miss all of that as scum than town? srs question.

srs reply, scum are more likely to coast. Hence why lurking is generally a stronger scum play than town play.

[Kinetic]

Lynch Vox now, Kinetic.

No, Amrun needs to die. Frankly I'm not completely over my suspicions of you. You trying to drive off the Amrun lynch is even more damning. Now vote your cult leader.

[Kinetic]

@Kinetic, really? As scum I feel a greater responsibility to be in the "know" so that I can manipulate more easily (the whole point of being scum).

Yup, really. Whether you personally "feel" different is not something I can quantify. The main purpose of town is that we have no information. More information generally benefits town. Scum are the "informed minority". Generally more information generally does not benefit scum. Obviously there are exceptions, but we are talking about generalities here.

Under this case, lurking is scummier. Refusing to learn information/keep abreast of the game, is scummier. Because it works toward the benefit of the scum.

[Kinetic]

Even your own example explains why "not knowing" is scummier. If you don't know, you're easier to manipulate. And its very easy to "pretend" not to know in order to manipulate. For all these reasons, you are acting scummy.

[Kinetic]

Albert: I've been thinking about your idea that Nexus didn't jump to Amrun's defense until post-claim. What if Nexus doesn't know who the Cult Leader was? What if the Cult Leader was somehow anonymous, but gave Nexus a code in case he was in trouble. Maybe a certain claim?

[Kinetic]

No, I assume the cult has a QT.

I've seen games implode because the cult recruiter was outed by the "recrutee" before. If they're using QT, the recruiter could be anonymous in the QT.

[Kinetic]

Amrun is dying today, we're not letting the Cult Leader survive.

[Kinetic]

If Nexus was recruited, Amrun is the recruiter. We kill Amrun.

[Kinetic]

Nexus wanting to recruit what he actually believes to be a doctor, yes?

I just don't see this move. It seems way to risky. Nexus as recruiter, no matter what, wants to stay hidden. No way he goes as far as claiming to be a cop to protect the possible doctor.

[Kinetic]

More votes to Amrun please, kthx.

[Kinetic]

I'm not for directing actions. Albert, you should know better than that.

[Kinetic]

Amrun has failed at every instance to make any legitimate defense. Despite multiple instances of being told that, no, she is not being voted for because of flavor, but, because of scummy play. She continues to make appeals to emotion. "Woe is me, being lynched because of flavor."

I'm done telling Amrun that isn't the reason she is being lynched.

[Kinetic]

Just have it noted that Grey is likely scum if Amrun is town and Kinetic isn't very far behind.

Hugely scummy post. Like, bells and whistles, makes me want to pull up on Amrun scummy post. But I'm feeling confident on Amrun being cult/scum, so I'm going to let this go. However, I now have a huge suspicion that DeathNote just "set up" his next plays with this post. This sounds almost exactly like "Amrun might be third party scum, but I know he isn't on my scum team and let me set up so if Amrun flips town I can immediately focus on two more lynches."

[Kinetic]

Thats right kinetic, just push aside anyone that puts suspicion on you as scummy... that will make you look pro-town.

No, that isn't what makes it look scummy. What makes it look scummy is you voting for Amrun, and then immediately saying "Well if this doesn't work, its obviously not my fault, its X and Y." I stand behind what I'm saying and doing, you are already looking for someone else to blame.

[Kinetic]

Hammer please. Someone.

[Kinetic]

vote:amrun

Why are we not killing the "doc" that failed to protect nexus?

The track is interesting, and I'm waiting for gray's response, but I also have an idea on why you're wrong Matt.

[Kinetic]

That being said, the Arsonist pop makes it less likely that we have a cult or a SK. Or maybe more on the cult... I'm not sure yet. It does seem weird for a game with only 16 players to have multiple third party scum groups though. These things tend to hurt gray's claim more than Matt's track honestly.

[Kinetic]

Triple Post: Also, whoever stopped the Amrun lynch needs to die in a fire.

Thanks.

[Kinetic]

Grey claimed a role that does not target anyone ever. He should have had no reason to target ABR. ABR died last night and I claimed that Grey targeted him. I am a confirmed VT due to Nexus. I claim an inventor gave me a lantern that had a 1-time tracking use. There are only two options:

1) I am lying gambiting town. This would rely on me making up an inventor in the setup. That is ridiculous and I would probably be blacklisted from many people's games if I did this. I gambit but not like that.
2) I am telling the truth

So either I am a FUCKING ASSHOLE or greygnarl is scum.

Gray claimed alarmist and claimed to have targeted Albert night one.

[Kinetic]

DCL protected you ABR. Sorry had to check that.

Please revise your opinions.

[Kinetic]

What you SHOULD have done with your information was wait and try to catch gray in a lie about who he targeted. You jumped the gun Matt. At this point you've wasted a lot of what you've gained, information wise, from the track.

[Kinetic]

I derped

I still doubt a cult is present just because we already have had an arsonist and a scum faction, it seems like too many anti-town factions in a 16p game

Also Amrun is NOT dying tonight.

I have a similar notion, hence why your track isn't the reason I have some issues with Gray.

Nevermind, Arsonist could bypass doctor fuck my life.

I'm not completely sure how the arsonist works in this game, but in other games they generally don't have a night kill, in favor of "marking" a player, and then being able to kill all the marked players.

Regardless, we have two deaths today. One could be a town vig. The other though, is more likely to be a scum group or SK. It is certainly possible the scum in this game is Cult, SK, Arsonist, but that seems a weird combination. Cult/Arsonist might both be in the game though, only because the two roles seem to somewhat balance each other out. Arsonist could swing it both for and against the cult in one shot, making it almost a pro-town role. Especially if he was un-recruitable.

[Kinetic]

greygnarl is dying today because I want to see if this cult is really real, that is all. The longer we keep him alive the longer we will be relying on an early-game scummy player's claim. That is all.

I disagree. I think we STILL need to kill Amrun. If it wasn't enough that she is still alive now, the fact remains that her ONE JOB, the one that was basically FORCED on her, that she had to PROTECT NEXUS, and she failed to do that.

No WIFOM. No more shit. Amrun dies. And if someone fucking saves her again, so help me god...

[Kinetic]

Uhhh she could have protected Nexus and the arsonist could have targeted him?

How do we know that the Arsonist was the one who killed Nexus? How do we know that the Arsonist even killed that way? I think we are missing some flavor and you're making some assumptions that can't be proven.

[Kinetic]

Uhhh she could have protected Nexus and the arsonist could have targeted him?

How do we know that the Arsonist was the one who killed Nexus? How do we know that the Arsonist even killed that way? I think we are missing some flavor and you're making some assumptions that can't be proven.

Uhhh I'm not saying I am right I'm saying there is a reasonable doubt that Amrun could have targeted Nexus so your argument is moot. Noone has flipped cult yet. You don't think the cult would have recruited Nexus last night?

@MOD: IF A CULT TRIES TO RECRUIT A PLAYER AND THAT PLAYER DIES THE SAME NIGHT DO THEY FLIP CULT?

I'l admit, I thought Nexus was cult. Ironically, it was Albert that pushed me off that notion. Additionally, there is some reason to believe that Albert at least thought Nexus was cult leader, lending to the idea that Albert would have targeted Nexus with a kill. The issue I have is that if the Arsonist is just another name for a SK, things are wonky. I'm operating under the assumption that Nexus was not killed by Albert right now. At the very least I'm waiting until MOS returns to determine if there is any kill flavor that makes it seem like Nexus was killed by "fire" or something Arson-like.

And my argument isn't moot, its not complete. However, there is a MUCH stronger argument that Amrun is a lying scumbag than gray right now.

[Kinetic]

Plus, your argument to the probabilities makes me think you're recruited cult yourself Matt. Just because no one has flipped cult doesn't mean there is no cult.

[Kinetic]

No!!!!!! Amrun is fucking cult is fucking cult as all hell! The chance that there is cult and mafia and Arsonist/SK is low. THEREFORE their must be no mafia.

MATT P YOU NEED TO FUCK OFF! MY ROLE IS FUCKING LEGITIMATE! WHEN THERE IS A DOCTOR AND A ROLECOP THE DOCTOR DOES NOT LIVE WHILE THE ROLECOP DIES! GET YOUR HEAD SCREWED ON RIGHT AND STOP BITCHING ABOUT THE SETUP!

@CAMN WHAT THE FUCK, LAST TIME YOU ALL DECIDED TO SHEEP MATT LOOK WHAT HAPPENED! YOU LYNCHED A GODDMAN TOWNIE!!!!!! FUCK OFF AND GET THE SCUMMY AS BITCH WHO'S SAYING SHE"S A DOCTOR! WHAT HAPPENED TO LYNCH ALL DOCTORS?????????? WHAT HAPPENED TO THE OLD SCHOOL??? DOCTOR IS NO FUCKING USE AGAINST CULT!!!!!!!!!!!

Both you and Matt need to calm down. Screaming and all caps. Really now?

Gray: Explain 2 kills last night without a mafia. Wait for MOS's flavor. If one of them is burned, then this idea is possible.

Matt: Your appeals to emotion are also lackluster. I don't care whether you like cult or not. I don't care if you're going to replace out or not. What I care about is that right now there is a decent amount of proof that a cult is here, BESIDES gray's claim. The very fact that Nexus turned up town and not scum role cop is a point TOWARD a cult in the game. Role cop makes sense in a game where cult exists.

Now, Amrun needs to be lynched. Not gray.

[Kinetic]

Arsonist kills one. Vig kills other.

Most possible, if the Arsonist has a kill like that. Ironically, if the Arsonist is more like a SK, than it works against your cult theory.

Arsonist kills one. Cult has some sort of kill.

Cult won't have a kill. That doesn't make any sense. Even assuming they did have a kill, it would have to be at the expense of their recruitment (either they choose to kill, or they kill unrecruitables). This works ONLY if Albert was unrecruitable. This actually makes you look pretty bad bud, as that kind of makes it look like you tried to recruit him after saying you were definitely going to protect me yesterday...

Vig kills one. Cult has some sort of kill.

See above why cult kill is unlikely, but if it is, it makes you look worst.

[Kinetic]

I refuse to acknowledge that this is a bastard game that was not advertised as bastard, that is all. Additionally, greygnarl's little insulting rant at me was postured as hell.

Cult does not equal bastard. And coming from you (about posturing), that's cute.

[Kinetic]

An interesting point, but at the same time, it is very unlikely that the cult has a kill. I would almost say impossible, but that is perhaps too strong. I would just say it is highly highly unlikely.

[Kinetic]

I'm not convinced Arsonist kill worked like that. While it is the most likely scenario that

works for you

, it is not the most likely scenario

for the game

.

[Kinetic]

They're the same thing. The longer that we reject the fact that there is a cult, the more time they have. Lynching AMRUN will show you all that there actually is one. Meanwhile, lynching me gives the cult an extra recruit and let's Amrun do whatever the hell she wants to get out of a lynch. Amrun was a scum suspect before I claimed and she should an even bigger one now.

Why are you trying to convince me to lynch Amrun? I'm just saying I don't agree with all your conclusions and I'm keeping an open mind.

[Kinetic]

Putting money on the fact that scooby was the one who prevented the Amrun lynch. Either way, Amrun needs to go first. That hasn't changed. All that occurred is whoever prevented Amrun's lynch cost the town a day. I probably would be willing to go after Gray today, but Amrun is still the top priority.

[Kinetic]

Putting money on the fact that scooby was the one who prevented the Amrun lynch. Either way, Amrun needs to go first. That hasn't changed. All that occurred is whoever prevented Amrun's lynch cost the town a day. I probably would be willing to go after Gray today

[if Amrun was lynched yesterday]

, but Amrun is still the top priority.

EBWOP

[Kinetic]

I understand you've been distracted Amrun, that makes perfect sense. But you must admit, after your claim, this is just about more of the same. Your defense for not protecting Nexus is... you didn't send in a protection.

So, Nexus is dead now, gray is unconfirmed, both because of Amrun.

I hate to be 'that guy', because I understand you're going through a lot, but maybe you should either step up and play the game or replace out. I for one think that maybe you're using these as convienient excuses, but its pretty damn hard to argue against you being distracted and feels in bad taste. But all the same, you failed to perform the one task that everyone was fighting to keep you around to do. What else is there to say? You need to be lynched.

[Kinetic]

I call bullshit. You're just playing the pity game Amrun.

No need to be uncivil. I did check, and Amrun made no posts on this board between October 13 and October 17. That certainly supports her argument.

You see, I'm certainly fighting with myself over Amrun. On the one hand, I completely understand, and don't want to push her. On the other, every instinct I have is screaming she is scum. Its a very weird position to be in.

[Kinetic]

Hell I want to hammer JUST to say "I fucking told you so" when Amrun flips scum and gray flips town.

[Kinetic]

Kon: Theo, Leik, Nexus, Pasch [L-5]

This says to me one of Amrun/Lies is very likely scum.

[Kinetic]

On the road. MattP: remember when I didn't dispute your inventor claim? There is a reason for that.

vote: amrun

I'll explain more later.

[Kinetic]

I have one question for Amrun, that must be answered before my next post.

Are you absolutely certain you want to claim that you targeted Matt P last night?

[Kinetic]

I'm double checking something with the mod before I reveal my card. I might have made a mistake, but I'm not sure.

[Kinetic]

unvote;amrun

There might actually be another option (I hate doing that to you again Matt, lol)

[Kinetic]

unvote;amrun

There might actually be another option (I hate doing that to you again Matt, lol)

Amrun could have been RBd and a BP could have been targeted

But I really doubt it and if there is a BP they should claim

There could have been another option and I'm waiting on a mod confirmation.

[Kinetic]

Worst yet: Nexus claimed that she "Said a name" and if the name was the role name she got confirmation. If Nexus said "Alarmist", she would have gotten a negative result on Gray.

[Kinetic]

You're actually embarrassing yourself, not me. Your logic is laughably bad.

I KNOW he nameclaimed something different. But he just proved he was a gov by governing me and he could come up with some bullshit reason for lying, protecting his role, blah blah blah. As I said, worst case scenario, he goes down the next day and I follow the next day and town is thoroughly distracted.

You're not even using the obvious reason that makes me more likely to be scum than town; you're using convoluted reasons that don't make sense.

I'm not a bad lynch for town at this point, and I'm not arguing that. But I'm still going to tell you when your logic is bad.

p-edit: Yeah, I guess that's true - even so, he could have said, "I'm the governor!" and he'd have proof. No one could have counterclaimed and we'd have been mostly forced to accept his version of events. If he was really lucky, I'd get lynched and flip town and confirm him even more. But even MORE likely is the first thing I proposed, that he kept me alive so that Nexus would target ME over greygnarl.

You're missing the point. There's an obvious reason to lynch me and it's none of the above options. lol.

Any claim he made after tricking Nexus the role cop would have been his death. I fail to see how we're forced to accept his version of events.

"Oh, I made up all that cult shit because I'm the Governor now." Your logic is bad if you REALLY think that would have happened. I don't even think we'd BELIEVE the Governor claim, much less care even if we did.

I see MattP's logic, but I don't agree that it confirms a Scum RBer. I think there is a much, much simpler explanation for the no kill. The problem is... I think it might actully tend to push Amrun more toward town. Which is really, really annoying, because even then you probably should die soon anyway. Not just for all the reasons that have been added today (Protected from lynch by a scum governor), but because all of the reasons I have given throughout the game as well (Claiming Doc, Failing to protect Nexus, Bad play).

[Kinetic]

The issue I have is... Amrun is too scummy. I'm starting to over think things maybe though.

[Kinetic]

The only issue I have with Matt's logic chain HERE is that... We don't know who killed Nexus. If the mafia killed Nexus then things become a bit murky. Additionally, I REALLY don't think Albert had a kill like we see it. There was only one kill Night 1.

Add to that: Is it possible that Governor was a scum role for a reason. Perhaps, quite literally, if they prevent a lynch the scum gained two kills that night? They then nab both Albert and Nexus, and have good reasons to say they only had one kill.

Add to that: We have no kill flavor...

I would like to see if there is a pro-town kill out there somewhere, but that would require a mass-claim.

I'll be honest, I think this game might be close to solveable with a mass-claim at this point.

[Kinetic]

Nominate Amrun for "Town Whip". Your job is now to question EVERYONE you think is scum Amrun. You better be the most active person in thread right now. Why? Because you're likely to be lynched. This is a GOOD thing for town though if you use it correctly. You see, by attacking everyone you can, if you're scum it gives the town lots of information, and if you're town it gives the town lots of information. So, use your new power wisely and start attacking. I would like you to re-read the thread and find your suspects and make some cases about them. If you can, get them to respond today.

[Kinetic]

Thats no kind of answer... and I know it wasn't adressed to me- but its relevant.
While your thoughts about my scumminess? Irrelevant You are the one on the gallows here.

That's exactly why you're scummy. You're deflecting. If you were town, you'd be interested in my suspects, even if you thought I was scum. if my top scum suspect was going down, I'd LOVE for them to go down swinging at me. It would really help everyone to know I'm town. I'd be most interested in associate tells after I flip scum - if you're really that sure. And if you're not, you should be interested for other reasons.

And you're not. You're more concerned about stopping any dirt from coming your way, even when you're not remotely in danger.

That's a scum mindset, and you are scum.

p-edit: Plan on it, Kinetic. Let's say, for argument's sake, that I'm scum. There's still no reason to rush the day. Please give me time.

I'm in no hurry. I've been harping on the fact that you need to die for a while now. Its annoying that by the time I get my wish I'm starting to think you're more townie now, but... well we can't take that risk.

[Kinetic]

Take a trip down the hypothetical with me.

I'm town.

What do you think of camn?

Assuming you're town: We have currently...

MattP (Nexus confirmation), Myself as town confirmed (at least to me, others may think otherwise, good for them).
For the purposes of this hypo, Amrun is town.

That leaves us with... 10 players alive, 6 unconfirmed.

We have...
WrathChild

As confirmed non-town. I hesitate to say anti-town, but it makes sense that there is at least two non-mafia, non-town roles in a 16 player game. Still leaves open for 3-4 mafia, making 5-6 non-town versus 10-11 town roles. Overall, that's the sweet spot for balance.

That means we have between 2-3 mafia among...
DeathNote
Panzerjager
Scooby
camn
Leiskyrie
AurorusVox (replacing PMysterious)

Of these, I'd probably put scooby as the most townie of that group. I haven't really analyzed the rest as much as I should. I will say, assuming Amrun town, I think Leis is nearly confirmed scum in my book. AV, camn, Panzer probably has 1 scum in there as well too. DN I'm not sure about, but have been getting more townie vibes from lately too. If I wasn't for Amrun today, I'd probably be for Leis as the lynch.

[Kinetic]

When did this happen:

Albert B. Rampage (Ambrose Jakis, what a badass name), Arsonist, Refused Readmittance Night 2.

\

I heard you, basically I don't have a strong read one way or the other, but group her with AV/Panzer in scumminess level.

[Kinetic]

Well, what is your opinion about what I said about her passiveness yesterday and her deflection today?

As for yesterday, there wasn't much of a day yesterday. It went by absurdly quickly and I can't say that her passiveness was much different from the passiveness from most of the players in the game. Today could be her just being red-eyed on you and not wanting to fully answer questions of someone she thinks is scum. Ultimately, its some arguments, but not as damning as you seem to think.

[Kinetic]

I'm getting a VERY solid town read on Camn. I'm wondering if that slip was on purpose my friend.

I'm good with crushing WrathChild.

Consider my vote on him. Not voting until I get a mod response to my question though, its important.

[Kinetic]

I'm pretty sure the kill was on me the last night and I blocked it with my two-shot Bullet proof . Oh, also, drunk posting lol!

[Kinetic]

Harhar

Inventor gave it to me night 2. So, yea. Its been used. OIr, its used been once.

[Kinetic]

It does make things even more complicated, however

It makes more sense if you think about it like someone is trying to frame Amrun. I was the one attacking him like no ones business all the last couple days. It also makes sense because I'm the last person Amrun would likely protect. If the mafia wanted a 'safe' kill, well I was perfect for that.

[Kinetic]

Okay, but how does that even remotely make me scum? That's fine, and that makes some things make more sense, but how would that lead you to vote me? lol

FTR, you're not even close to the last person I would protect.

I was bluffing the track. I wanted you to think I had a result and see how you reacted.

[Kinetic]

Okay, but how does that even remotely make me scum? That's fine, and that makes some things make more sense, but how would that lead you to vote me? lol

FTR, you're not even close to the last person I would protect.

I was bluffing the track. I wanted you to think I had a result and see how you reacted.

[Kinetic]

Yeah let's kill the Doctor that is the only chance of keeping conftown alive when we know at the very least WC is indy if not scum

Yeah that's so cool that's so interesting great thoughts Leis great thoughts

I don't view Amrun as a confirmed doc, I just prefer to kill the admitted non-town.

[Kinetic]

We can kill two birds with one stone though. Amrun should hammer in case there is a jester bomb here.

[Kinetic]

So here is the verdict from the town:

Between the admitted non-town and pretty much confirmed scum, go for the non-town. Who cares about scum?

Can anybody can present one GOOD reason why scum would save a town doctor from being lynched?

WIFOM argument if Gov. had lived and Amrun died. There might be other role related reasons that we are not aware of.

Can anybody explain the benefits for scum of framing a townsperson who was lynched?

This is a theme game. Unfortunately we do not have perfect information and don't know exactly what scum could be thinking.

Can anybody tell me why scum would not use their governor to save scum from being lynched and delay town by a day?

Perhaps they can't? Perhaps there is a part of the abilities rules that says they can't use it on scum, but gain some sort of benefit by using it on town. Would make sense then that they saved someone scummy who they thought they could lynch again anyway.

[Kinetic]

wake me up when wc is lynched

This. The day is over. I might swap to Amrun in the event we need a last minute lynch because everyone else is being stubborn, but at the moment I'm not feeling any need to move my vote/arguing about anything more. I think everything I want to say is on the table.

[Kinetic]

Also, I havent read all the game yet but seriously Kinetic go can fuck himself by a tree for attacking me for lying to the town.

Just wanted to point that

Back to regular transmission

There are differences between what I do and what you did. Mislead? Sure. Bluff? Yup. I do plenty of that, but I draw the line at certain things. Would I lie if I felt it would help the town? Yea, I would. I was not even angry over you lying in particular. It was what you lied about and how you did it. You directly lied about having a cop confirmation on someone. Yes, I'm going to give you heat for that. And why did you do it? It was a horrible play at anytime, much less when you did it, and there was no reason for it. And the worst part? You never even owned up to the fact that you made a shitty, stupid play. Someone else had to basically prove that you were lying through your teeth, and when you were questioned about it you lashed out. You didn't apologize for lying, you continue to actually think you were

right

in this whole thing. Your inability to even admit fault or error makes everything worse. The whole issue would have been dropped a lot sooner if you didn't go about it in the way you did. Even dropping the argument that you lied about it, everything else about that play (and really your entire hyper-aggressive, assholish play style) held absolutely no value.

Whether you personally are good at determining alignments is not the only part of being a good player. A good player also has to do many other things, including being persuasive and having at least a modicum of respect for other players. I know you don't like me, and if its personal you should drop it. I don't have any personal animosity towards you. If we play another game in the future, I won't hold anything against you personally. But what I will remember is that you're not fun to play with. You are coarse, hyper-aggressive, constantly 'screaming' and swearing, and refuse at anytime to act with class or respect.

While you continue to act that way, I will continue to think of you as someone I'd rather not play with.

[Kinetic]

Not really. I'm thinking he might be a jester and I don't want to swing onto that bomb. Can we get Amrun to do it?

[Kinetic]

Dude... wtf are you talking about? Nexus confirmed Matt as a Vanilla Townie role.

[Kinetic]

There are not two scum teams of 3. If there were then there would be at minimum 8 scum in a 16 person game. That's absurd. At most there are 2 mafia remaining in the game. DieScumDie.

[Kinetic]

Let me spell it out for you:

Kinetic

WrathChild

DeathNote
Panzerjager

MattP (replacing SB)

Amrun (replacing theomoaner)
Scooby
camn
Leiskyrie
AurorusVox (replacing PMysterious)

Mehdi2277 (Fela)

Konowa (Denna)

Paschendale (Kvothe)

Albert B. Rampage (Ambrose Jakis)

Nexus (Master Elodin)

greygnarl (Master Hemme)

Names in Green = Third Party
Names in Blue = Town
Names in Red = Mafia Scum

That leaves:
Amrun (replacing theomoaner)
Scooby
camn
Leiskyrie
AurorusVox (replacing PMysterious)
DeathNote
Panzerjager

Of which, there are at most 2 red scum remaining. MAYBE 3 scum, but I sincerely doubt there were more than 5 total scum in a 16 player game. We might be looking at only 1 scum remaining out of those 7 players. There will be no third party scum remaining though.

[Kinetic]

Note: With Mafia traitor being Wrath's role, the possibility of 2 mafia remaining still exists. The likelihood of another neutral role being around, however, is reduced.

Death Note seens as good as any.

Vote:DN

[Kinetic]

Leis's adamance against the WC lynch all the way to the end was just so ballsy I could not believe that Leis would be scum after that. Also when I called Leis out for her connection to DCL earlier in the game it just felt towny, AND Leis had done a VCA analysis that she did not even initially share with everyone meaning she just did it for herself, not to prove anything. Leis is pretty obvtown.

This doesn't mean anything. WC was a traitor, i.e., mafia connections with WC are much different. If anything I say this is MORE damning to Leis because she could be mafia, knowing that WC was not mafia, and trying to get "cred" by calling a mislynch.

[Kinetic]

oh wait that was me

I suspected that . I also tried to hint it was me to Matt a couple times .

[Kinetic]

I'd like to know why gray protected Amrun.

[Kinetic]

I was planning to claim anti-cult as soon as I realized my slot was about to be lynched. Kinetic believed me too and he was the major force in the game around then. Sorry for making you lose your shit Matt. It was pretty funny.

I have this problem where I LOVE cults. Also, I HATED Amrun. It worked quite well in your favor, but once you were lynched despite my opposition it basically gave you the exact opposite result as it sort of cleared Amrun in my head.

[Kinetic]

I was planning to claim anti-cult as soon as I realized my slot was about to be lynched. Kinetic believed me too and he was the major force in the game around then. Sorry for making you lose your shit Matt. It was pretty funny.

I have this problem where I LOVE cults. Also, I HATED Amrun. It worked quite well in your favor, but once you were lynched despite my opposition it basically gave you the exact opposite result as it sort of cleared Amrun in my head.

[Kinetic]

Also, my roleplaying at the beginning was a role name soft-claim. I'm... shit, can't remember his name, that dude from the tavern that didn't quite make Kvothe his sponsored guy, but didn't had too many artists already or something.

[Kinetic]

"Kinetic is a driven player that can turn several town members. I dont like having someone in the game with more influence then everyone else. He is being pig headed, luckily, but if he gets his act together, then that might be trouble for us." hahahaha, I love scum QTs.

Yea, I can see from this game I'm quite a bit rusty. That's what happens when you don't play mafia for nearly 2 years I guess .

[Kinetic]

I also think the ABR kill wasn't a good one for the simple fact that if you'd have noticed ABR and myself were sheeping each other. When you broke up my main voteing block ally you broke up the Amrun lynch potential.

[Kinetic]

Nexus, despite your hatred for me, I felt I played good...well, in terms of having solid reads >_>
I need to work on having good reads AND looking town at the same time. Like, I only seem to have good reads when I play a bit more loosely, with gut and tone as my primary tools.
Gah.

Your problem, as was with most of the town, was your inability to post more and explain your reasoning. That's how you look town. "Playing good" isn't just having "solid reads". It helps, but it is also important to give enough information for everyone to be able to develop a solid read on YOU as well. When you play "fast and loose" or "close to the chest" you let suspicion fester. What you need to learn is not doubt your gut, but determine why you have that gut feeling and learn to explain it properly.

[Kinetic]

I didn't used to be like this I used to be incredibly verbose. But I found it was just me spending too long posting and not getting anywhere.
When I try to explain, it either sounds shit to other people or there's very little to say.

I'm trying though

Well, do what I do. If someone doesn't like your post, just remember that several people in the game are scum and its easier to believe its just the scum trying to shit on a good post .