Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Legacy (Game Over)

[Elscouta]

Hi.

I'm replacing rapidcanyon. I haven't read the thread yet, and will most likely need a few days to do so, so don't expect real content before Friday.

Please tell me if there is any specific point that I should focus on, or question that should be answered.

[Elscouta]

I haven't read much yet, but if the SK is willing to collaborate with us, I don't see why we shouldn't let her live a few more days. An extra town-directed kill is great, and we might even save the burden of lynching her later if the mafia gets sick of us getting double lynches and hits the NK button.

She should die as soon as she does a non-town directed kill OR we get into LyLo-2.

[Elscouta]

Read (quickly) through the whole thread, and here are my (summed up) thoughts:

Acomists claim: A PGO claim is kinda scummy in my book, and the special "delayed" mecanism doesn't change much to that fact. However, it is not enough to justify a lynch on these grounds only.
Cyberwagon: Zero idea on what sprouted this thing.
Pages 20-30: A whole bunch of crap walls. If some people wanted to smother the town under fake content, they couldn't do better.
Melmond's lynch: Didn't really see what were the grounds for this lynch. It looked awfully convenient. I can understand the "let's end this day" reasoning though.
Discussion about town messenger (Pages 46-48): 100% worthless, 100% nulltell.
Tammy and Benmage: Tammy is as confirmed SK as she could be (not only because of the guilty, but because of her behaviour - not shooting Benmage, etc...). Benmage motivations look town (and well, being a confirmed cop also helps a lot).

Comments on specific players:

Mykonian: very strong town read at the beginning (#822 for example). The hammer w/o a claim hurts though.
PeregrineV: Lots of sniping from the sidelanes. #1100 by ThAdmiral is also a good case. Scummy.
Yates: Most likely town.
Acosmists: Ratio of Contents/Noise is awfully low. Looks to me like scum cruising through the game under the protection of "oh oh oh i'm claimed".
Angry Pidgeon: Couldn't manage to read all the stuff he was sprouting. Looked like overeager town, but unsure.
Nero Cain: How can someone be so abrasive? I considered replacing out on reading some posts. Nulltell.
Kise: Why are people voting him? I see no proper case on him.
snifit: Few posts, but with content, and content that looked quite opportunist (#817). I agree with Mastin #968. Strong scum read.

I retract my previous post on Tammy, as it doesn't seem to me like she wants to cooperate but more like keeping control about her daykill. Unless this changes, i'm ready to lynch her. Also lynches i'd be up for (by order of preference): Snifit, Acosmists, PeregrineV

[Elscouta]

Oh and I forgot. What is with all this BloodCovenant hate? It started to grow only once BC stopped posting, which is odd to say the least.

[Elscouta]

@jason: BC has never been a real wagon (highest votes received were 3 according to mod ISO, and it was in the middle of day1). From what i remember, some people have impressed concern about his play, but nothing like "omg omg lynch him naw"

I don't understand mykonian last post.

[Elscouta]

@mykonian: well, both parts actually.

@Yakes: it certainly didn't look that way. BC has barely posted day2 (once, to announce he was busy), and day1 ended with a happy wagon with BC having zero votes. So who are these "noteworthy" players that are suspicious of BC, and more importantly, why? Also, how can day1 suspicion that wasn't even enough to get him a vote on that day is enough to make him lynched day 2?

[Elscouta]

Many people received more votes (and later) than BC. AngryPidgeon, zabriel, Cybertronix to be precise.

And no you didn't move your vote from BC to Melmond, you moved it from AngryPidgeon to Melmond.

This still doesn't answer my question of "why is BC suspicious?". Question that i'll now pair with "why is AP no longer suspicious in your eyes?"

[Elscouta]

"why is BC suspicious?"

From memory? Very first post was a request to PL. You can read the rest of the ISO for yourself and tell me why your slot WOULDN'T be scummy after that. Unlike AP, BC never did anything to make me consider changing my mind outside of simply not posting anymore.[/quote]

I'm replacing rapidcanyon, not BC. And i did read BC and didn't find absurdly scummy. Also, i'm hoping your case doesn't rely only on the fact that is first post was a request for PL. Because this might indicate a lot of things about the player, but definitely not about its alignement.

(thx myko)

[Elscouta]

@PeregrineV: I'm 100% up for leashing a SK... IF Tammy proposes us a clear deal where she shoots only what the town wants and acknowledge that she will get the hammer if she takes any "initiative"

[Elscouta]

A game with no kills on day1 is not a multiball game. A SK that wishes to play to her WC after the town says "kill X or we kill you" will kill X. That's called self-preservation. Tammy-SK odds of victory are actually as close to zero as one can get. The only way that they stay a bit above zero is by following what the town says and hoping for a miracle. An extra lynch with the slight possibility of a miracle SK secret backdoor win sounds like a great deal to me.

[Elscouta]

We need Tammy acknoledging she will follow the town decisions.

We need people realizing that in the absurdly low chance that we are in a multiball with a group with daykill, no sane mafia group will accept that the town directs his kill.

[Elscouta]

Ooooh tchoo tchoo.

Vote: Acosmist

But yes i want a very clear post by Tammy.

[Elscouta]

The fact that Benmage doesn't realize that "Tammy playing to its win condition" = "killing whoever the town wants for at least the next 3 days" is sad.

But yes...

You're also stagnating the game with an issue that will cause a total smokescreen for which scum will hide behind. Tammy will be a recurring issue, today tomorrow, etc until she dies.

This is the reason I'm not moving my vote today. Today has degraded into a circlejerk of debating the risk/rewards of Tammy and the debate itself is anti-town. Lynch her and end it.

That's actually one of the few reasons that can justify voting Tammy. It's sad to lose an asset because a bunch of people are arguing against what is the most logical course of action though.

[Elscouta]

All points from both sides have been made. People that are not voting for Ascomists or Tammy should take a side to break the stalemate, or explain why they aren't voting for either.

Unless we do have multiball going on, KK is town now. His last two posts are very logical and sensible.

Also, never considered that Ben might be a lyncher. Interesting idea KK.

...

[Elscouta]

Unvote, Vote: pidgey

Ascomist wagon was good, but pidgey one is better.

[Elscouta]

It's sad that the main argument of the people that want to lynch Tammy is "we need to lynch Tammy otherwise we will keep being stubborn about lynching her".

Anyways, the only way to resolve this situation is for the people that haven't voted yet to vote. It is absurdly anti-town to not take a stance here. Let's end this debate. You already know my vote will be on any decent Tammy counterwagon (pidgey / ascomist prefered though)

[Elscouta]

Elscouta, you're the only one on pidgey right now, so could you point me to the case on him? Things are bleeding together right now. Also, what do you think of the stray votes on WC and Kise?

Active lurking. Didn't cast a single decent vote. Too many of his posts contain either "i'm town" or "i'm lazy". No scumhunting. Way too much irony.

I'm disliking the WC wagon because people seem to suspect him only because people seem to suspect him. Some active lurking too, but pidgey is way worse on that account. I didn't see anything scummy on Kise.

[Elscouta]

Remember, even a leashed Serial Killer is going to hit Town more than scum

Like the normal lynch is more likely to hit town than scum. Assuming the daykill is directed by majority vote, anything that makes lynching good (as opposed to no lynch) also makes having an extra kill good.

[Elscouta]

I like the idea of leashing Tammy a lot. Really. I feel that Double Days is just insane, and anyone trying to argue the opposite is wrong. And I argued for this leashing.

But the fact is... i'm growing more and more wary of Tammy. She isn't playing like a SK that is willing to be leashed then lynched. She didn't wrote anywhere something blunt where she said "i will kill the first people reaching L-1 so you people have full control about my kill". Every one of her posts reads as a SK that is hoping the town won't be able to have a strong enough agreement about how to control her so that she still gets some freedom. This "oh i won't tell you my private info" screams like a trick to stay alive and maintain some control about her destiny. I have made all my previous posts on the assumption that it will be easy to leash her. But with so much disagreement in the town, we will probably not manage to do it correctly.

Pidgey is still scum though.

[Elscouta]

No time to read the MoI case right now. You can most likely count me on the wagon though, unless i see something blatantly wrong in the case.

[Elscouta]

I'm not exactly sold on the MagnaOfIllusion case, but i want a lynch.

Unvote: pidgey, Vote: MagnaOfIllusion

THOSE KEEPING TAMMY ALIVE:

Who would you have her shoot tomorrow? Cast your votes now.

Anyone in the pool snifit / pidgey / Ascomist would have my full support. There are other decent possibilities i could get behind.

Strangely enough, it's the list of people i'd be ready to lynch now. Why would you think anyone would have different lists for people to lynch?

[Elscouta]

My vote will stay on a non-Tammy until the last minute. And will basically be on anyone non-Tammy with the highest vote count given how likely i am to be able to lead a wagon to completion.

The defense of MagnaOfIllusion looked decent to me. If there is a scum among MoI or mastin, i'd rather think it is mastin. I really dislike this amount of "i'll show all i'm a townie ready to be a martyr". (And yes my vote is still on MoI, deal with it)

Last "false dichotomy" post by WC is either dumb or scum.

I wonder if there was recently a competition on "who can repeat the most stuff on this thread so that nobody else can follow". I can't say who is the winner of this anti-town contest, but mastin, KK, Benmage definitely earn the 3 top places.

Despite basically any lynch being better than a Tammy lynch, a Tammy lynch is still slightly better than a no-lynch in my eyes.

[Elscouta]

Unfortunately, this means that we can no longer manage to get a majority on any non-Tammy, given there we only have 8.5 votes lying around and i'm 100% confident that no one on the Tammy wagon intends to switch.

Vote: Tammy

======[]

[Elscouta]

@pidgey: Because i think you were scum. Why would I have another reason?

Active lurking. Didn't cast a single decent vote. Too many of his posts contain either "i'm town" or "i'm lazy". No scumhunting. Way too much irony.

[Elscouta]

Your case on me is so strong i'll most likely selfvote too.

But don't worry, we'll have all the time of the world to discuss this tomorrow.

[Elscouta]

I hate to admit it, but the reactions of pidgey during the last part of the day looked quite coherent with his previous playstyle. I'm thinking that what i read as scummy might just be a "peculiar" style.

I still would be up for a snifit or Ascomist lynch, but i'm interesting in seeing the MoI vs mastin fight.

@mastin, it is generally considered that having more than 50% chance of scum-lynching accuracy is pretty great. Your behavior during last day seemed to look like you where way above this bar. What make you so confident? Have you already been so confident before? Have you already been so confident and failed?

[Elscouta]

What make you so confident? Have you already been so confident before? Have you already been so confident and failed?

Trust me, confidence is a null tell for Mastin. In mini 1377 he made wall after wall about FancyPants and how he was like 100% guaranteed scum and then after FP flipped VT, mastin did not even mention anything about how wrong he was. It made me think he was scum at the time. What makes Mastin so confident? Dunno, but at least I can answer the 2nd Q for you

What changed your mind on pidgey, exactly?

I'd have prefered Mastin answer the question himself. Regarding pidgey, part of my attack on him was on style. However, the fact he maintained his style despite the attack, added to some things That-Can-Not-Be-Referenced makes me believe it's just his normal style.

[Elscouta]

mastin, i'm puzzled by your 2278. You claim to be a super mafia hunter, and you definitely want to take the town leadership or whatever. It is very clear that you wanted him to hang yesterday or today. Given how your posts dripped of "you are locked in a 1v1 with me", i'd consider that you believe you have a reasonable chance of success. However, 2278 gives the impression that you would have satisfied yourself with forcing a MoI claim so that it'd come to hurt him afterwards.

Can you explain me what was your aim, and what did you expect (odds of success / failure, etc)

--

On the zabriel wall by AngryPidgeon, i'll wait for a zabriel reply. What I find interesting though is that there was a group of players that were ready (or at least claiming) to lynch anyone but Tammy. On the other hand, zabriel was not in this group. He didn't vote Tammy, but cherry-picked the counterwagons. It is way too early to start arguing about this, but if Ascomists turns scum...

--

zabriel: I am scum or not. Answer, go.

Ooooh this question is way too tasty to ignore.

Yes you are.

--

On a final note, can we avoid shitting the thread like yesterday with "should we lynch the SK?" talk? If you want, i'll promise to join for a 50-page-sized thread of full arguing in circles in MD after the game. Official 100% guaranteed promise.

[Elscouta]

Number of votes Elo has cast for Acos (who he directly calls scum) today (including this post) – 0
Number of votes Elo has cast for anyone today – 0

And? I have clearly stated the wagons i'd support if they launch, but that before voting i wanted to see how the discussion develloped between you and mastin.

Sorry to not fit in your "someone should always have his vote on someone" box.

@Elscouta: Read on Mastin/MoI?

Mastin: thinking he is scum overplaying his own meta (average confidence)
MoI: null read (pretty much because i'm too lazy to reread carefully all the walls of the last pages)

You're gonna have to explain to me how these are mutually exclusive. Heck, even how they could possibly be detrimental to one another. They augment each other.

MoI should be lynched, but if not, then I'd take a consolation prize of him being locked into a claim, so that he can't back out of it, as he's attempted to do with his 1V1 versus me. Yes, I was the one who suggested the 1V1, but MoI clearly said he was accepting it. And now he's trying to back down, push a miklynch (spelling intentional), and force the matter on us day four. Where he'll try to say, "Oh, guess myk was town, but Mastin's still scum", try to get me lynched, and if successful, get into day five without harm. And if I don't get my way, without having claimed as well.

Except that you paid the price of claiming for that. Which was unnecessary. You did not lock MoI into a claim. I'm not exactly sure of what was your meta between you and him, but there is no way that "oh i'll claim so you'll feel forced to claim" is a strategy that would have worked.

I don't believe that you thought your claim would bind MoI claiming, and I'd like you to show me why you thought that you claiming would do anything in order to fulfill your goals (ie: getting MoI to claim, or lynched)

[Elscouta]

Mastin makes a point in last post. MoI, you claimed you'd 1v1 mastin tomorrow, but you are ignoring him now. Why?

[Elscouta]

I don't speak about the fact that a 1v1 is good or bad. Of course it's dumb. But claiming you'll go in a 1v1 then retracting your statement is the whole different thing.

Do not sidetrack me with mykonian.

[Elscouta]

Why is the 1v1 a good thing? Please elaborate on your position and reasoning.

I don't speak about the fact that a 1v1 is good or bad.

Of course it's dumb

Come on. I make a point about doing short post, you can try to read them.

I have no clue about the mykonian case and i don't have the time nor the will to read enough to get a good opinion on it.

Now answer my question.

[Elscouta]

MoI, you claimed you'd 1v1 mastin tomorrow, but you are ignoring him now. Why?

I don't speak about the fact that a 1v1 is good or bad. Of course it's dumb. But claiming you'll go in a 1v1 then retracting your statement is the whole different thing.

Why did you claim you'd go in 1v1 THEN retract your statement.

I'd lose less time if you stopped dodging my question and blatantly misreading my posts.

[Elscouta]

That's not a derp technicality. That's a fucking lie. Humoring? Since when did MoI need to humor Mastin to get the Tammy lynch done? Nothing that he could have told Mastin would have changed the outcome. The link is totally unrelated to changing stance. I don't care about whether a 1v1 is good or bad.

Guess what i was doing right now? Trying to turn my null read into a non-null read. And I have done so. Yeah i consider *both* scummy.

And can't you just iso me? I already posted my scumlist. Ascomists, snifit, mastin. You can add MoI now. Top3? I guess snifit gets 4th place.

[Elscouta]

No.

[Elscouta]

Vote: MagnaOfIllusion

Enough with the bullshit.

[Elscouta]

Wasn't it already clear?

[Elscouta]

Because reading any of your posts is so annoying that the simple thought of digging through pages of them give me shudders.

I already have enough people to focus on. No, i won't suddenly start analizing Yates, jason, mykonian, AP or whoever just because one of my scumreads ask me to do so (exception can be made if a good and clear point is being made, but that's something that you seem unable to do). If the mykonian wagon starts to really take steam i will look at it, but i would rather see votes pile on you for now (or mastin, or Asco)

In case it's not clear, I consider you either scum or bad town that enjoys drowning the thread with walls. Don't expect me to follow anything you say.

[Elscouta]

@MoI

1- you definitely seem stronger at writing than reading at least.
2- And? Doesn't it sound logical that while i'm analyzing someone i don't let myself sidetracked? Especially as the analysis lasted like 4 hours?

Because of the last vote-count mykonian had more votes than Zab and I'm more sure of mykonian as scum than anyone else. Do you think mykonian is scum?

rewritten for you: i don't want to vote for people that are attacking me and that look hard to lynch. I'd rather take the easy target for the lynch and simply call my attackers scum without doing anything against them.

@Ascomist: lol. I have played the game more in 10 pages than you in 100.

[Elscouta]

Also i like how Ascomist knows that i'm sincere in my intentions and not scum faking to focus. I wonder why...

o wait i know

[Elscouta]

Not caring to argue with MoI anymore - if any town want additionnal explanations, plz say so and i will provide them.

[Elscouta]

Not caring to argue with MoI anymore - if any town want additionnal explanations, plz say so and i will provide them.

"Shit I'm busted ... going to take a page out of mykonian's book and stop being killed on facts and lurk it out"

"Shit i gave MoI a way to shit up the thread again. Let's make sure everyone catches up, can see clearly that MoI post don't make sense, and wait for people to say what was unclear in the exchange."

[Elscouta]

If people care about my meta, all my games are on my wiki page. I'm not an alt and I have no alt.

[Elscouta]

"Hey look! I’m following along closely enough to pop in to say “My meta is free to review” when MoI posts a question to mykonian about his meta with me but I’m not going to actually say why I called mykonian an easy lynch.

Nope. I’m just going to continue to active lurk like good scum!"

Let me state a last time my position on you, MoI. You are on my soft-ignore list. This is the last time i adress directly a part of one of your post.

I don't intend to lurk, just to ignore your bullshit.

[Elscouta]

Why are you breaking down? Also, why aren't you providing your own reads instead of trying to support other cases?

I'm not sure what you mean by "breaking down". I'm not speaking with MoI anymore because I believe him to be scum, and I think that continuing to argue with him will just drown my initial case on him.

There is already enough names that have been thrown around that i don't see throwing a new one to be productive. Why would I try to find a new case when i'm perfectly happy with lynching MoI and Ascomist? (a bit less mastin now that I agree strongly with him about MoI being scum)

I could also argue that I'm attacking MoI on my own reads, because I didn't agree/understand mastin points at the beginning.

[Elscouta]

Hmm. I'm not sure what you are referring too... selfvote? disappearances? bad looking wagon switches?

[Elscouta]

Oh.

So I'm currently one of the most looked-at people due to the last 5 pages, and you vote for me because i replaced someone that self-voted in his first post then waited two days before posting again,

That's convenient... Can i ask you to do a bit more homework and read at least from the beginning of day 3?

[Elscouta]

^ facepalm

[Elscouta]

Because you weren't happy lynching MoI until he started questioning you. <snip>

What happened was actually the opposite. I found something interesting in mastin posts, and decided to question MoI on it. Then, he started questionning me about mykonian to distract me, and after a few pages of back-and-forth, I determined that he was worthy of today lynch.

Regarding original content, what about Ascomist #2464 where he admits he knows i'm town "refusing to play" instead of scum faking a style? Nobody has even commented on that...

I'm watching the thread closely to see if anything strikes me, but unfortunately nothing really scummy appeared (except Cheery Dog "oh i will vote for one leading suspect but pretend it's from my read of RVS" but i'm waiting for his reply on that)

[Elscouta]

What happened was actually the opposite. I found something interesting in mastin posts, and decided to question MoI on it. Then, he started questionning me about mykonian to distract me, and after a few pages of back-and-forth, I determined that he was worthy of today lynch.

But didn't he answer the question you had before he brought up myk? He was questioning you back afterward.

Yes and no. In 2417 he says "Because I don't really care about a mastin and his 1v1. I basically humored him enough to get the Tammy lynch actually accomplished yesterday. I've already linked to another game where Klick wanted to go 1v1 with me." and asks me about mykonian. That was quite an insufficient answer for me and i continued pressuring him after that point.

O.. looked like a quip in response to you ignoring MoI. There seems to be a trend of people's tones addressing others as town.

Yes it was. But do you say "screw this guy he is not playing correctly, i'll ask for a replace" then state that you consider the guy scummy?

[Elscouta]

Answers to AP:

Isn't it also possible hes trying to get you to lynch

your buddy

Mykonian?

It is quite clear he was trying to lynch myko. Note the past tense. Does that make him town or right?

But you KNOW that hes trying to distract you? :/ I know Im giving Mastin a light pass for saying that MoI is doing nothing but misrepping, but doesn't MoI doing that make sense for either alignment?

Oh i'm not calling MoI scum for the distraction. It was annoying, but annoyance is not a scumtell. However, I call him scum for lying yesterday, and I'm adding now that from all his posts, it is clear for me that he is not looking at my motivations, but only about finding flaws (supposed or real) that will allow him to lynch me. From an experienced player, this is a scumtell.

Cheery: I think hes town. (And yes thats because hes on my wagon). Coming in and declaring intent to sheep is probably not something scum Cheery would do.

He didn't declare intent to sheep. He said he was voting me for a RVS reason. That's absurd, and most likely a lie.

Elscouta, read on Mykonian?

Null. Not that you care much about my answer given the rest of your post though.

[Elscouta]

Can we agree on lynching Ascomist then? That would be much appreciated.

[Elscouta]

@AP

I was interested in seeing MoI vs Mastin because one of them (mastin at the time) was one of my scumread (based on style). I believed i could get interesting data from that, that could make mastin a better lynch than my suspects at that time. I must admit I didn't expect MoI style to be that ... absurdly verbose.

Now, aren't you concernced that MoI, despite writing walls over wall on me, never asked this question? It seemed much more important (and easier to answer) than "go read my case on mykonian and tell me what you think about it".

--

I stand corrected on Cheery. However, when asked about why he voted me, he claimed the reason was his read of the first few pages. I still would like more information from him.

--

Why Ascomist?

- fishy claim
- absence of scumhunting during days 1 and 2
- faked a "can we replace Elscouta" (that I consider a hint that he knows i'm not faking my opinion on MoI)
- now prepares a chain-lynch on MoI after I turn town (which is even worse given the fact that i'm at least on his slightly scum list)

That's quite a big deal.

Last point could show that MoI and Ascomist are not on the same team though. I'm getting kinda annoying that my three scumreads (based on their behaviour) seems to be mutually exclusive to be perfectly honest. I'll say that the last comment of Ascomist makes him the leader on my scumlist though.

Unvote, Vote: Ascomist

FakeEdit: Lots of Xposts. I appreciate one of the vote i saw in them though.

[Elscouta]

Btw, can people write my name correctly? It's Elscouta, shortened in Els, and i'm male. Thank you very much.

[Elscouta]

- Originally wanted a Tammy lynch
- Cited evens/odds balance as reason for hopping off the wagon
- Later backpedaled when someone (MoI?) pointed out that we would be in odds by lynching Tammy

I hope this isn't the case on mykonian that I was supposed to check. Because these three bullet points are completely empty of any scuminess.

[Elscouta]

Care to explain a bit more about your pidgeon vote there? You make no sense to me.

[Elscouta]

Why Ascomist?

- fishy claim
- absence of scumhunting during days 1 and 2
- faked a "can we replace Elscouta" (that I consider a hint that he knows i'm not faking my opinion on MoI)
- now prepares a chain-lynch on MoI after I turn town (which is even worse given the fact that i'm at least on his slightly scum list)

1. Just because its a PGO claim? Or is there something specific he said?
2. Ok. He HAS picked up his play IMO though. And other players also fall in this category (Cheery slot, Peregrine, Pidgey, jason)
3. Elaborate? I need to look that up. IIRC it was a policy statement since you were going to ignore MoI.
4. Mmmm. He said after "MoI mislynches" which I guess counts. Ok, so you think Acosmist is more likely than MoI. Read on Yates?

1. The claim in itself is a slight scumtell (as a miller claim is), because that's something that is advantageous for scum to claim. I admit it's a weak one though.
2. Well I attacked snifit and pidgey too, but I grewed convinced that it's normal pidgey style. Peregrine posts read town to me, even if there's a few of them. I should probably check jason.
3. It was before I stated that i'll ignore MoI, it was when I said I didn't have time nor will to check mykonian case. The statement looked more fake than joke or policy. #2464
4. Yates? I haven't looked at him much, but he looked townish to me. Ascomist' attack on Yates feels extremely weak.

You guys realize you're not lynching me any other day than today, yes?

Why?

A policy lynch has to happen RIGHT AWAY. Anyone pushing my lynch who didn't DAY ONE is a suspect. That's why when I flip, you are all ABSOLUTELY LOCKED IN to lynching Yates. The dead thread will be nothing but laughing at you if you don't.

We aren't policy lynching. We are lynching you because you are scum.

[Elscouta]

gimmie a bullet on why you think myk is scum.

- Originally wanted a Tammy lynch
- Cited evens/odds balance as reason for hopping off the wagon
- Later backpedaled when someone (MoI?) pointed out that we would be in odds by lynching Tammy

AP, i'd like you to explain how you believe that your three bullet points are a reasonable answer to "why is myk scum?".

[Elscouta]

Yes, here is your full post

I was voting him, I felt it went without saying.

- Originally wanted a Tammy lynch
- Cited evens/odds balance as reason for hopping off the wagon
- Later backpedaled when someone (MoI?) pointed out that we would be in odds by lynching Tammy

Also now turning away Acosmist's theoretical support for an MoI lynch (despite him being Myk's top scumspect?)

Waffling.

However, this post seems to mean that the three bullet points that i quoted was, at some point, your full reasoning on voting him.
And because i don't see any amount of scuminess in them, I'd like you to explain why, at some point, you thought this was a valid case.

[Elscouta]

I just did. It was interesting:

#1162 (05 Nov). You call mykonian town. I'd assume you liked his style up to that point.
#1292 (06 Nov). "10 points to mykonian". Still no comment about his scumminess.
07 Nov - 11 Nov. Up to #1950 Still no mention of mykonian. However, you basically already called half of the town scum at that point. The other half of your posts are basically: "<Random Guy>, what is your opinion on <Random Guy>".
#2056 (12 Nov). Finally first mention of mykonian: "Mykonian, are you scum?". Nothing else.
#2082 and #2085 are continuations of #2056. "I don't like he didn't answer my question". Are we serious there?
#2097 "I dunno, I think KK and Mykonian are prob scum now.". No previous explanation except the dumb "he didn't answer my question".
#2162 You vote WC, but you maintain your accusation on myk. Still no explanation.
#2224 "mykonian is scumming up the thread like a boss". No other explanation.
#2251 "@KK: Mykonian is scum for his bullshit re Tammy. Check my ISO.". I did. Found no reference.

I'm stopping the iso-reading at this point.

So let me ask you the question one more time:
- At the time of #2224, what made mykonian so scummy?

And i'll add a followup:
- What changed in his style between #1162 and #2056.

[Elscouta]

May i humbly request that you take notice of the questions i left for you in #2464?

[Elscouta]

Acknowledging prod (even if i have a post on this page :/)

I'm waiting for more people to weight about AP.

Kise is 100% town.

[Elscouta]

I realize some people might not have seen clearly what i found super-scummy in AP.

It's one main point, followed by a side remarks:

Main Point: AP doesn't know why he wanted to lynch mykonian

- Look at #2623. AngryPidgeon answers there at the question "why do you think mykonian is scum". Immediately, I call him on that, because none of the points there show any scumminess.
- In #2645, he insists that his bullet points are the reason he is voting mykonian. He asks me to check his ISO for more precision. Except that his iso doesn't contain any precision (please check by yourself). I continue pushing for reasons.
- Finally he posts #2658. Check his reasons for voting mykonian and compare with #2623. There is

no overlap

. Angry Pidgeon made up the case on mykonian

after

being asked to explain why he was pushing mykonian.

Side point: AngryPidgeon ISO - Calling everyone scummy

I'd recomment reading his ISO from #928. I'll list for you all the people that AngryPidgeon has called scum at some point.
- Mastin (#918, #928)
- rapidcanyon/Elscouta (#928, #963, #1007, #1410, #2433)
- snifit (#943, #984)
- Kublai Khan (#1019, #1815, #2097, #2162)
- Kise (#1046, #1480)
- Blood Covenant/WrathChild (#1162, #1627, #1921, #2162)
- jason (#1162)
- PeregrineV (#1658)
- Nero Cain (#1950)
- mykonian (#2097, #2162)
- Tammy (yeah ok...)
- zabriel (#2339, #2395, #2414)

[Elscouta]

Why AP reply makes no sense:

Nero asked for points about why Mykonian was scummy so I said the first things to come to my head. Then you ask for points about why Mykonian was scummy YESTERDAY. And are now trying to say that since I have different reasons for both that I'm scummy? And there WAS overlap. My main grievance with Mykonian is his changing Tammy stance which I mentioned in both (in fact it was most of what I talked about in both)

The bulletpoints were all about things that mykonian said yesterday. Hence, my question about yesterday was fully relevant.

- Originally wanted a Tammy lynch
- Cited evens/odds balance as reason for hopping off the wagon
- Later backpedaled when someone (MoI?) pointed out that we would be in odds by lynching Tammy

I guess i can see that there was "some" overlap. I'll let people check the two posts to see how minimal it was.

---

And to finish about why you are scum:

Mykonian is scum and you should stop defending him and CWing a retarded PL.

Treating me as town.

Lynching Mykonian/Elscouta is worth like 2k exp points each.

Calling me scum.

[Elscouta]

Unvote, Vote: AngryPidgeon

Ascomist was good lynch, but AP one is great.

[Elscouta]

Counter question: Why is Mykonian town?

I already stated that mykonian was a null read for me. There is nothing in his play that points me to either him being town or scum.

The

bulletpoints were all about things that mykonian said yesterday

. Hence, my question about yesterday was fully relevant.

Also now turning away Acosmist's theoretical support for an MoI lynch (despite him being Myk's top scumspect?)

No they weren't. And they were off the top of my head >.>.

Yes they were:

- Originally wanted a Tammy lynch
- Cited evens/odds balance as reason for hopping off the wagon
- Later backpedaled when someone (MoI?) pointed out that we would be in odds by lynching Tammy

All of them relate to the Tammy case. This case was pure yesterday stuff.

[Elscouta]

I love people (AP mainly) that are calling me scum for "dipping my feet to taste the water", "avoiding taking a stance on mykonian". Really? I am not voicing my opinion loud enough? I am not pushing for the people i suspect?

I hope no town player there that seriously considers that i'm avoiding going into the arena.

Elscouta, do you still think MoI is scum? More/less likely to flip scum than me?

Yes. Less likely.

[Elscouta]

And you have ZERO stance on Mykonian? At all? I just dont see how thats possible. At the VERY LEAST you say he leaning-town because you think the people pushing him are scum. Im guessing your plan is to be all "oh, maybe Mykonian IS scum" when I and/or MoI flip town so you don't get shafted for blowing all your cred soft-defending him. But you are even keeping that option open.

I have a null read on it, as in, his posting style doesn't strike me as either town or scum. Of course the fact that people that i consider scum are attacking me makes me think he is probably town. But the read on him is still the same: null.

I'll admit I considered giving a fake read on mykonian a few days ago because it was pretty obvious that I'd get backlash from claiming a null read, but I don't like doing that.

Is there anyone you actually think is town?

strong town read on Kise, weak town read on pidgey and PeregrineV.

--

Anyway, I think we can agree that each of us is considering the other scum, so let's just let other people weight in and vote. I'll be glad to answer any question (except from MoI ofc) that is asked.

[Elscouta]

Pressure for what?

I don't intend to change my mind or something.

If you have questions or requests for info, please tell, but "pressure"? for what?

[Elscouta]

If you have questions or requests for info, please tell, but "pressure"? for what?

For that response.

Unvote: Elscouta

Can you link to two games where you were scum for me? Thanks in advance.

You won't get much there. The only game where i was mafia, i replaced into a spot that had been selected for investigation before i came.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=13336

On another note, I am kinda puzzled that the wagon on me went off pretty quickly, while the one on mykonian didn't, and (as far as I understood) the most important point on the case against me is "refused to take a stance on scum-mykonian". I'd like people that are voting me and didn't want to vote mykonian to explain their thoughts.

[Elscouta]

Aren't I at L-3?

[Elscouta]

uh. no.

[Elscouta]

I have taken a few minutes to consider the various options and outcomes, and I can safely say this:

You won't get a claim by me.

[Elscouta]

Okay, you're a good lynch then for being anti-town and silly and also wanting time to work on your fake claim.

Am i silly town or scum wanting to work on his fake claim?