The Dresden Files - Early Days Mafia (Bastard) - Over

[ICEninja]

Alright I would like to point out two specific rules to everyone:

B4) If at deadline no player has achieved a majority of votes a no-lynch will occur.

and

C1) The first Day will have an initial deadline of 2.5 weeks (18 days). After that point each Day will last 2 weeks (14 days) when more than 7 players are alive. Each Day will last 1.5 weeks (11 days) when less than 8 players are alive.

We're playing under the "not sufficient vote, no lynch" rule as well as variable day lengths. I would ask everyone to be conscious of when the deadline is, and how far we are from a lynch at all times.

That being said,

Vote: GreyICE

. Please note that I am

not

voting for myself.

[ICEninja]

Oh I see how it is, the person who makes the most intelligent post thus far gets the votes. You worried, scum, that I might be paying a little extra attention, and want to get rid of me right off the bat?

[ICEninja]

The most intellegent post in the game?
Was that don't get the 2 Iceplayers confused?
Because the rest was beeing obvious and only appering to be helpful.

Actually I was referring to the 70% of my post where I'm reminding people of the way the game is structured. Not everyone reads the rules thoroughly. I didn't say it was a scum hunting post, but it was the first post of the game that contained anything more than a random vote so at the point in time it was most intelligent.

heh. "I can quote rules, ergo I am a threat to scum!"

One who reads the rules pays closer attention. Up to the point of that post did you notice anything better to go off of?

Looking at all the votes on me, I'd say Klick's is the wost. Seems to have the most enthusiasm behind it with the least reasoning. Definitely looks like scum pushing my lynch. Especially his most recent "not yet" post, do not like.

Unvote, Vote Klick

.

[ICEninja]

This post is totally fake. It also sounds nothing like his play from the one Mini game I played with him, where he was town.

This interests me. For several reasons.
1) I tend to grasp at straws to make the most well reasoned argument I can with as little evidence as possible for the purpose of getting out of RVS and building discussion, as both alignments. I suppose not every game, but I do my best.
2) As I pointed out in the signups for this game (and I should repeat here), I'm going to put less effort in to maintaining my logical steel mafia persona and play more like my own personality, due to this being a themed bastard game.
3) You're going to assume that I play exactly as I did during a mini game we played together that was probably quite some time ago? Funny man. Especially considering you're an alt, you can conveniently not make actual reference to this should you be called on it.

However, I will concede the point that, as of right now, you probably have the most solid reasoning for suspects out of anyone, and kick starting a game like that with honesty suggests you're probably more likely town than scum for now.

Unvote

.

There's something bugging me slightly about jason, but I like him pressuring for reasons for Klick's suspicions.

Konowa's vote from random to my "wagon" (one vote at the time) feels a little strange.

Vote Konowa

. Why did you switch your vote to me?

[ICEninja]

This game is off to a quite weird start.

Kondi I remember your name but that's as much as I remember. I got pretty turned off from mafia a while ago, so I don't really remember too much about very many of the people I've played with.

I actually have plans for my Konowa vote, thank you very much. I'm waiting for a response to it.

You're also ignoring like confirmed scum here

Unless your role is insane day cop, you're a little bit too ready to lynch someone. Really looking to get day 1 over with as quickly as possible, hmm?

[ICEninja]

Claiming that you're more likely to be town because you can quote the rules is scummy.

What? I wasn't saying reading the rules made me town, I said someone that pays more attention is going to be a bigger threat to scum. Those aren't even REMOTELY close.

Claiming that I said "I'm likely to be town because I can quote the rules" is much much scummier.

Don't really understand your second question.

It was the best line of reasoning (besides following a random bandwagon, which I don't really prefer doing as a rule of thumb) that I had available to me with which to scum hunt. And I got crucified for it. Whatever.

[ICEninja]

I wasn't trying to be helpful. Anyone who knows me knows I hate going up against deadlines. I was trying to prevent the retarded situation of it being a few hours before deadline because someone wasn't paying attention and we lynch the wrong person.

[ICEninja]

I will not be unvoting Konowa until he responds, as I have a legitimate line of reasoning for that vote. I want to hear his reasoning for the vote first.

I do not at all like jason's 76. So the L-1 vote on me was for LOLs? Oh and to create discussion? That sounds awfully hedgey.

Or his 77. Things like this:

vote:Shamrock

Pidgy can die tomorrow

imply that he's already ready to see the lynch happen. If you're willing to see a lynch happen this early then you're obviously not playing to a town win con. Klick and Grey have both done this as well.

Konowa vote was omgwtf because it felt incredibly forced to me.

I'm very quite ready to share my reasoning for the vote, as soon as he gets his ass in here and actually posts something!

Ice why the heck are yoh discussing and being afraid about deadline lynches anyway? I seriously dont thin ive ever seen a lynch that wasnt a hammer in this site.

I simply wanted to point out that deadlines vary in length in this game. Not every game does that. I wasn't discussing anything until people lined up to vote me for simply making sure people read the fucking rules. I don't like lynches that happen on the day of the deadline. I really shouldn't need to be explaining this.

[ICEninja]

Do you really think someone will misread when you are using full names? Why did you feel the need to point that specifically?

It was RVS vote, I felt it was obvious. Perhaps context of the pregame topic would help explain this, I made a comment explaining how I've been called GreyICE quite a few times throughout the past year or two and I dreaded the game where I'd actually play with him, for this reason. It was really no different than your vote for Sixty.

Jason counterwagon could not actually be scummier.

Looks like Grey is grumpy that his quicklynch didn't go through.

I'm a little torn about CKD's recent posting. I'm finding myself having a very difficult time following him. I'll be heavily scrutinizing his play.

I don't mind the jason wagon, but I won't be joining just yet.

Still waiting for a response to my vote. The longer I wait, the more suspicious I'll get.

[ICEninja]

I'd like to point out the Konowa had time to post about football today, but didn't address my vote on him, which certainly required minimal reading to reach.

[ICEninja]

QUICK COMMENT:

greenknight please get an avatar. I remember who posts what more by a glance at the avatar than reading their name. Because of this, I literally cannot remember a single thing you've posted without reading back on it.

Alright, interesting. This Konowa response is actually very telling. I will admit, I did indeed read the rules before the game started, and did indeed decide to point out that day lengths shorten as time goes on before actually making that post. I also decided I would put my RVS vote on GreyICE before the game started as well, for the very reason I pointed out in the pre-game thread.

What I don't understand is how any of that could indicate, in any way shape or form, that I'm scum.

Now here's the real kicker, that gets me. You had already thrown down a random vote. The first one of the game, actually. Then, after my post which was the first one to actually contain ANYTHING more than a random vote or a mod vote, you quickly put a second vote on me after Zdenek throws his random vote on me. Without comment. My reaction to said votes sparked the wagon on me, but now you come back and say that your vote on me was actually the first serious vote of the game.

Yet you said nothing in your entire post except voting me. Isn't it damn convenient that you suddenly now have a scum read on me and jason, who are the easiest targets at this point, without ever having committed to actually finding anything I found scummy? You didn't say why you voted, that it was a serious vote for "actual" reasons, you just threw your vote down.

And yes I am going to paint your absence here as scummy if you're posting elsewhere (especially about things like football). If you remain active then fine, but you already had your vote on me so it's not like scum-Konowa really needs to do much in order to help my lynch along, other than hop in and say "oh yup my vote is actually right where I want it". Which is

exactly

what you did.

None of this adds up to a town mindset, at all.

The one good thing about your post is you point out that Kimor is voting pidgey, and reading his post makes it look like he's voting pidgey because of both a bad Klick vote and filler posts, but pidgey never voted for Klick, and never said anything about his opinion of Kondi.

This does raise my eyebrow, Kimor. Why talk so much about how much you dislike the Klick wagon then vote someone who wasn't on it? In fact, only 2 people have made any reference of policy lynching Klick, and Grey isn't voting for him.

[ICEninja]

ICENinja, why did you single Konowa out of all the people who voted you on page 1 without giving a reason? You mention that he was random voting first but I don't see what that has to do with anything, the other votes on you were clearly non-random. So why Konowa over, say, Zdenek or Sixty or GreyICE?

Because if you look at ALL the other votes, they're clearly either RVS (in Zdenek's case), random bandwagon votes (in almost everyone else's case), or votes on me with reasoning (as Klick seemed to try to do). Konowa's, however, didn't fall in to any of those categories. He had already placed a random vote, he obviously didn't vote me for bandwagon purposes (as someone already had a small one forming on them at the time, larger than my single vote), and there wasn't even a shred of indication that it was a serious vote.

Very anti-transparent, suspicious, and worthy of singling out.

Waiting on more people joining it, so you can justify your vote, eh? no commitment from you

I like the wagon on you, but I like my vote on Konowa even better.

For the record, I don't mind the wagon on me, if for the purpose of generating discussion. Reactions were given, reads were formed, and this advanced the game. As a player who is very intent on advancing the game to real discussion ASAP using different strategies, I don't mind that it happened. I don't find jason's L-1 vote on me bad in any way, it's the more recent things that have bothered me, specifically his hedging on WHY he put me to L-1. What I didn't like about my wagon was people who seemed to have a "yup I'm pretty sure this guy really is scum, let's have a lynch" mentality when it was based on almost nothing.

[ICEninja]

For the record, my vote was not random.

See, you can't pull this shit. You can't just go back and say that your first vote of the game, on page 1, with the words "easy mode on", based off voting a person who simply pointed out a combo of rules to be aware of along with throwing down a random vote, was serious.

I was hoping to post before Zdenek, but I didn't read his vote as random. So, no I didn't say my vote was the first serious vote of the game, nor did I ever imply that it was the first serious vote.

How can you NOT read his vote as random, considering the severe lack of anything at all what-so-ever to go off of that we had at the point in time?

Also, I didn't say you claimed yours was the first serious one, I just can't possible see any of the votes before yours as serious.

This is why you need to post a reason for voting someone, when you have a reason. Even on page 1. Now you can go back and claim whatever the hell suits your current purpose, which REALLY benefits a scum win condition.

The ONLY context that could even POSSIBLY indicate that your vote wasn't anything other than RVS was the fact that you had already laid down a previous vote. And this is exactly why I voted you in the first place, because that's a slippery move. Leaving your vote up to interpretation is scum scum scum.

It kind of boggles my mind that no one realizes how scummy this is, ESPECIALLY considering how he's played it off.

I agree with much of what was said in Sword's 148.

[ICEninja]

While I like to have my vote on someone, I think it's kind of pointless to go after someone for unvoting so long as they're still scum hunting. It's having no vote while not scum hunting (or planting a lame vote while not scum hunting) that ticks my scumdar.

While I'm not inherently saying CKD is town, his next 2 posts after unvoting were content-ful, and involved scum hunting.

[ICEninja]

Question: How exactly am I trying to play what off?

You dropped a vote without comment that you could have easily claimed was either serious or not serious. You popped back in a few pages later, saw how easily it would be to just say "oh yup it was a serious vote and oh yup he's still scum" and just park your vote there.

While I realize that my pressure on you forces you to spend extra time responding to me, the lack of pressure from anywhere else in town (seriously, am I crazy? Am I REALLY the only one who sees this?) wouldn't exactly force you to scum hunt beyond the bare minimum.

[ICEninja]

for the record, i also thought that Zdenek vote wasn't random, based on his comment.

Can someone PLEASE explain to me how that could have been considered a serious vote? I really just don't see any justification.

Actually, have you played with Zdenek before?

I think I have, but there aren't very many players who I remember very well.

[ICEninja]

greenknight:
PLEASE GET AN AVATAR. I already asked you nicely.

[ICEninja]

ICENinja's response to pressure is to switch his vote THREE MOTHERFUCKING TIMES.

Um...Are we seriously reading the same game?

I placed my RANDOM vote on you before there was a single vote on me. Then I voted Klick for transparent reasons (he pushed me harder than most, and without solid reason at first), and when Klick made transparent his reasons for voting me, I switched to Konowa for what I STILL SWEAR is solid reason, though it seems like no one else agrees with me.

I'm calling you out on flat out lying here. I only switched my vote after there was pressure on me twice, and I gave very good reasoning to do so. This is BULLSHIT.

Memo to self, this isn't useful until we have a flip, but I'm feeling a strong connection between GreyICE and jason. they're probably the same alignment

.

[ICEninja]

So in 173 Grey

flat out lies

about me.

In 175 I completely call him out for it.

In 178 he pretends I didn't.

Lolwut.

[ICEninja]

[ICEninja]

Because at least he tried. Everyone else had NOTHING.

I countered his argument, but his scum hunting seemed the most town motivated of the lot.

[ICEninja]

Jason, I'm on the fence about whether or not I believe you. Do me a favor and briefly describe your relationship with Harry Dresden for me.

I'm feeling a bit discouraged about this game. Usually by this point in time, my scum hunting and pressuring is leading town towards a lynch. In fact, I'm typically one of the biggest driving forces behind the day 1 lynch. However, this game it just seems off. A point that I felt so sure about is turning up with nothing.

I'm going to read the game over tomorrow, hopefully with a little less bias this time around. Hopefully I'll get something fresh.

For the time being I'm going to

unvote

, as I'm obviously getting nowhere with my Konowa line of reasoning.

[ICEninja]

Does this comment make sense from someone with two votes on them who thinks that one one of them is random?

I was expecting a "dude I'm random voting you" response, not a "let's lynch this guy" response.

[ICEninja]

honestly, I don't know... I don't follow the Dresden Files but MOI asked me if I would be interested in playing, so I said yes. My role PM does not mention Harry Dresden at all.

Then I believe your claim. Morty would would be town aligned, a neutral survivor at WORST, and you described him without being familiar with the series. It was a trick question, sparked by your not knowing what an ectomancer is.

Grey, I feel like I need to point out that at this point you're going beyond scum hunting and just trying to bash me in to the ground. You'll see whatever I say as scummy and you're being kind of a dick. In 100% seriousness you need to take a step back and look at things freshly.

A more contentful post will come today.

[ICEninja]

Oh and side note, I'm actually finding greenknight's lack of avatar at this point legitimately scummy. He's obviously not reading everything. Town 100% needs to read everything in order to find scum, but scum doesn't necessarily have to, especially if they're a low activity player.

[ICEninja]

Wow in rereading the game I realized how horribly bad Grey's pushes on me have been. Take a look at how Zdenek, and to a lesser extent, Kortul scum hunted me. They scrutinized my posts, analyzed everything I said, and formed their opinions as a result. Even Klick, who more or less just mindlessly pounded on me for a couple pages, had some reasoning behind it. Zdenek and Kortul have both played thus far to a town win condition.

Grey's "scum hunting" of me almost literally boils down to "HURR HURR HE'S SCUM LYNCH HIM NOW!".

I would also like to REMIND everyone that in post 173, Grey made this outright false statement:

ICENinja's response to pressure is to switch his vote THREE MOTHERFUCKING TIMES.

I've only placed three votes so far, and the first one was placed before there were votes on me. This isn't even misrepresentation, it is outright lying.

two posts later I call him out on it. He fails to respond, and posts about other things.
later down the same page I call him out on it again. He

still

has not responded.

In his most recent post, Grey also made a potentially HUGE slip:

It's hard to scumhunt when you're trying to track down the people in your quicktopic and it's unsuccessful.

Scum having daytalk is not a common power for scum to have. The only reason I could possibly think of why you'd assume this is because you know for a fact that scum have daytalk and slipped.

There isn't a shred of town motivation to this guy attacking me.

I'm still pretty suspicious of Konowa. Both Pidgey and Shmugen are making me twitch a bit, but I'm having a hard time putting my finger on why. I'll look at them in more detail soon. Jason is either telling the truth about his claim or he is freaking brilliant. ABR and Sixty seriously need to start playing, Klick needs to get in here and make some new content, and why greenknight doesn't have an avatar at this point literally boggles my mind. The only explanation I can think of is, as I previously said, he isn't reading the thread.

I'm actually pretty confident right now that Grey is scum.

Vote GreyICE

.

[ICEninja]

Oh and to respond to Zdenek's 197, they were page 1 votes that seemed like they meant nothing. I called you and Konowa out on them to see how you'd respond and try to develop some reads.

More than anything I just wanted to see why Konowa voted me, and his lack of response to that lead to my suspicions of him.

[ICEninja]

God dammit. No, I obviously don't find greenknight scummy, I'm just trying to bully him in to getting an avatar because it's irritating that he doesn't have one. Out of more than 20 games, this is the first one I've ever been in that someone is going to play the whole way through without an avatar. It forces me to pay extra attention to him, and forces me to ISO him more often because I've developed an apparently crippling reliance on associating avatars with what was said by that player.

Which is also why I hate it when there are multiple anime avatars in the same game because I mix them up.

You did not call me out on mine. You over reacted to two votes on you, you think that is "calling out".

So your vote on me gets to count as scum hunting, and my comment in response doesn't? You seem confused. An overreaction would be panic about people placing votes on me. As I've said before, and had another player meta confirm, I make radical leaps in logic to call someone scum in the first page or two in order to get discussion going.

Maybe I'm missing something completely, but I just don't see how any of that can be interpreted as scummy, or how any of it plays to a scum win condition. At the time of the post I had literally nothing better to go off of scum hunting wise, so I took the best swing I could.

And while I wasn't expecting you to just say "it was a random vote", I was expecting that to be the general tone of the response, to come back with a "no, that isn't why I voted you, my vote on you was RVS". Which it turned out not to be, and apparently I'm the only one in the game that can't figure out how you could have possibly placed a serious vote on me on page one. Which, considering how I tend to make radical leaps of logic early in the game to get discussion going, is saying something.

Like I said, that comment resulted in me eventually getting a read on Konowa, so I'd actually call it a success.

Please explain how I'm trying to rewrite history.

[ICEninja]

Good job reading what I said 2 4 posts ago.

[ICEninja]

Oops ignore the 2 ^

[ICEninja]

One of the reasons I believe Kimor is because of this post of Grey's made on page 2. Grey never voted for Klick, but made that comment, so I can see how someone in a hurry reads that comment, notices votes on Klick, looked at jason's vote but didn't pay attention to the unvote, and jump to the conclusion he made. However, Kimor's contribution to this game pretty much boils down to this post, and I need to see more scum hunting than defending in order to make a solid opinion of him. Let's hope his busy days free up soon.

Oh dear, I was going from memory. I remember you panicking and switching your vote a lot.

Oh alright, so on the 3rd time I call you out on this and throw down my vote, "oh whoopsie". Nope. You could have so easily said this the first time, so easily said this the second time, too late to pull that shit.

But you're not trying to lynch scum. You're trying to discredit my arguments.

I happen to be doing both, actually. I'm discrediting your arguments, showing how you're clearly not town, and trying to lynch you because of it. Looking at your actions, you aren't trying to lynch scum either. You just picked one player, repeatedly call him scummy, and push for a lynch. Sounds like an easy way for scum to get day 1 over with nice and quick, as they typically like to do.

Oh and good job not responding to the daytalk slip you made. Thanks for that, by the way, it's going to insure I'm sufficiently paranoid of scum playing gambits mid-day. It should make it easier to find your scum buddies.

don't mean to burst your bubble about Jason, but seeing as this is an MOI game, I would certainly think that scum have full fake-claims complete with fake role pm’s and abilities. Not sure how Jason’s ability would be provable either.

While I admit this is my first themed game, I've never once ever seen scum provided with fake-claim information. Also, Morty was on my list of characters that I'd be surprised to not see in this game, just from my knowledge of the books. Maybe if the claim was a more obscure character that I didn't expect to see in the lineup, sure, but it's a really believable claim.

Actually, this is something I should have asked on page 1. Who here is familiar with the first 3 books, who here is familiar with the entire series, and who here is playing without much/any knowledge of the series? This will become fairly important

.

[ICEninja]

MOI's last game..i've linked the page at the end for you.

Alright...MoI in that game intentionally seeded major characters as fake claims. This scares the shit out of me. I'm no longer dead sold on jason's innocence, thank you for bringing this to my attention.

Theme games are a lot scarier than normals >_>.

Nah. You called me out for saying you panicked and switched your vote three times when you actually

panicked and switched your vote

scum hunted and used my votes to gain reads on players

twice.

Fixed. Because otherwise you'd basically be saying the correct town response to pressure on me would be to maintain my random vote. No, you outright lied about the number of times I switched my vote (OK maybe it's possible you just remembered wrong, but that means you really had no clue where my votes were, which means you're not really paying enough attention to me to know much about my alignment anyway, so STILL SCUM because if you were town you'd be thoroughly reading my posts), and BADLY misrepresented what my vote switches were.

Completely happy with my vote.

So am I, and at least I'm not faking it.


I may be remembering this incorrectly, but I seem to recall starting a game with ABR and he replaced out within the first few pages due to being too busy to play.

Fakeclaims plus modpreferenz should we believe that IceNinja has never even looked at a themegame before?

This is indeed my first theme game. I never knew that mods provided scum with fake claims.

I don't know if scum has daytalk. It is a posibility. (I had it the one time I was scum in a themed game) So assumption okay.

I would be AMAZED if having daytalk was the norm. Having it sometimes is one thing, but automatically ASSUMING that scum have daytalk as town?

NOPE!

That's scum who knows.

Seriously, how are people OK with the fact that Grey outed that scum have daytalk? If someone can prove to me that a significant majority (not 50/50, NO decent town player is going to assume if it's that low, I'm talking 3/4ths or more) of theme games give scum daytalk then fine. But otherwise, anyone who is going to just let him off the hook for that is crazy.

[ICEninja]

Apparently ICENinja's scumbuddy thinks that because I referenced a quicktopic that I know scum have daytalk because I'm scum, and that therefore I was criticizing ICENinja for not posting in our joint QT enough. Or something. It didn't make much sense

Oh so now you're going to play this off like I'm a moron who doesn't make sense.

So you're going to accuse me of waiting for someone in a QT to respond. And you're also accusing me of being scum. Is there ANY reasonable way to interpret this other than "you're not getting help from your scum buddy via daytalk"? ANY WAY AT ALL?

If no, then how can I not be suspicious at you automatically knowing that scum has day talk?

It's as simple as that. That didn't even look like an assumption, looked a hell of a lot more like you accusing me of exactly what was going on with you.

Grey has repeatedly refused to acknowledge the scummy things he's done, pushes people for no or stupid reasons (the fact that he's STILL on CKD for his unvote after meta shows this as normal play for him is LAUGHABLE), and fails to contribute to the game despite posting frequently.

There are not enough Grey votes.

[ICEninja]

Why do you think my comment had anything to do with daytalk?

It's hard to scumhunt when you're trying to track down the people in your quicktopic and it's unsuccessful.

I don't see what else you could have possibly meant.

Also, why are people (and not just ICENinja) just instinctively believing Jason's claim? Is the idea of fakeclaims really new to you people?

Note the top of my 259, actually.

[ICEninja]

Flavorwise, if we're talking ONLY the first 3 books (this changes to an extent later on) I could very very easily see Morty being 3rd party. He hates Dresden and everything he stands for, and only helps because Dresden bullies him in to it. He isn't a bad guy though, and I would be upset to see the flavor distorted to that extent putting him as scum for the purpose of making the game more bastard.

Also, green you haven't said a whole lot about Kimor so far, yet that's where your vote is. Do you still feel he's the scummiest player in the game?

[ICEninja]

I don't see that post of yours, the over-reaction to two votes, as you calling anyone out, and I think you saying that is what you were doing is false.

I guess I'm just not sure what to say. I suppose I can see how you'd view it as an overreaction, but it wasn't.

Greenkight, look at ICEninja's join date, and then vote him.

Also note my win ratio, and the fact that I've never played a large OR themed game. I'm no newbie, but I'm out of my element.

[ICEninja]

What specifically makes playing a large game something that puts you "out of your element"?

I believe the largest game I've ever been in outside of hydra play was 13 players. Its easier to get to know everyone and have a solid read on everyone when there's that few players. I'm doing my best to keep track of more players than I ever have before. However, moreso than the game being large, I'm feeling out of my comfort zone at the theme game. Out of my 25 or so games, only one or two has given scum daytalk. Under normal circumstances, it is simply an incredibly rare power, rarer than a role blocker, role cop, or Godfather, which are the kind of powers I'm used to seeing scum have.

Don't count me out as I know my shit with how to play the game despite losing a lot, but I've never seen scum being spoon fed fake claims to make so I honestly have no idea what to think of jason right now.

All of that is independent of my scum read on Grey. Theme game, large game, whatever, this guy is playing so hard to scum win condition and at BEST is hurting town.

[ICEninja]

A quick search shows that Iceninja has played in one 17 player game and one theme game that was abandoned on day 2 and the rest seem to be 13p- mini normals or newbie games, so this statement seems reasonable.

I do believe both of those games you mentioned were hydras as well (I believe one of them with MoI in fact). Not 100% sure, but I believe.

[ICEninja]

Kortul, good catch on Kimor. That really does look like a blatant lie in order to avoid taking stances on controversial topics when he was indeed fully aware of the wagon that was on me.

I can see no town motivation to have zero opinion on this, especially considering how most people seem to agree I was scummy and deserved votes or the wagon on me was terrible at someone on it deserved votes. While the jason wagon was less controversial, it is still very discussion-worthy, especially considering how a vast majority of the player list felt he was at least suspicious, even if they didn't vote for him.

Kimor is second on my scum list now. Jason is still suspicious, but I want to see how his PR plays out.

[ICEninja]

Right, Grey. So all scum teams get a QT. So how could you be implying that I'm trying to track someone down, in my QT, during the day, without having daytalk?

You can't come here and claim that you meant talk to him at night, because that would be in direct contradiction to your slip.

Let's really look at the original slip:

It's hard to scumhunt when you're trying to track down the people in your quicktopic and it's unsuccessful.

This was in direct response to me saying how I needed time to re-read the thread. I said I would post the next day. You

very very clearly here imply that I'm waiting for someone in my QT to help me out

. You can not possibly deny this statement, and if you do I swear town better lynch you on the spot.

So. Care to try again, Grey?

[ICEninja]

So your implication here is that scum won't get quick topics until night 1 and that right now you have no idea who your scumbuddies are?

My implications aren't even remotely close to this. STOP MAKING SHIT UP THAT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE TOPIC AT HAND.

You're circumventing everything I say to try and prevent you from getting nailed here, but I'm NOT going to let it happen.

ICEninja, explain the exact slip now

You're either pretending you don't get it (scum) or you're a moron at this point.

In post 194 I made this comment:

I'm feeling a bit discouraged about this game. Usually by this point in time, my scum hunting and pressuring is leading town towards a lynch. In fact, I'm typically one of the biggest driving forces behind the day 1 lynch. However, this game it just seems off. A point that I felt so sure about is turning up with nothing.

I'm going to read the game over tomorrow, hopefully with a little less bias this time around. Hopefully I'll get something fresh.

Then in post 200 you made this comment:

It's hard to scumhunt when you're trying to track down the people in your quicktopic and it's unsuccessful.

"I'm discouraged, that's why I'm less active!"

Really scumbag? Really?

Since you're obviously too slow to understand the interaction we have (I don't buy that shit, I don't believe anyone can really be THAT dumb), I got discouraged and promised to reread the game next day. You come back and make the comment that I can't seem to scum hunt without help from people in my quick topic.

So, playing along with you really not understanding the implications of this, you

very very clearly

implied that I was currently asking for help in my quick topic and not receiving it, and would therefore be inactive until the next day.

How could scum possibly do this? With day talk. It would not be physically possible for scum to do this without day talk.

How could anyone possibly know scum has day talk in this game?

BY BEING SCUM!

NOW, had you come back and said "of course I'm assuming scum has day talk, look at this game and this game and that game, it would suggest that there is a high likelihood of scum having day talk" then alright, fine, I understand why you made that comment. Nope, you didn't do that. You went around spouting nonsense that anyone with a brain realized had nothing to do with the point.

No, now

13 of your posts later

do you finally come in and try to deflect this after spending multiple posts confusing town about what the "slip" was actually about (apparently with jason's help, good bet for scum buddy once you flip). You failed to discredit me, you failed to confuse me, and I will not give up.

[ICEninja]

EVERY SINGLE PLAYER WHO ISN'T VOTING FOR GREYICE RIGHT NOW, PLEASE ANSWER THIS QUESTION:

Why would town GreyICE, who apparently really has assumed scum had day talk all this time, try so hard for so long to ignore this, when he's (more or less) responded to all the other points I've made against him? Is innocent town, who made a comment about an explainable assumption he made, going to do this? Or is scum, who got caught slipping up, going to do this?

[ICEninja]

Actually you dumb fuck, what I said was that you were having problems on HUNTING the people in your quicktopic.

Well shit, you could have said that 14 posts ago, and not been literally the biggest asshole I've seen in 20 something games here. I still say it looks like you meant I was looking for help from people in my QT, considering the context of me saying I'd post the following day.

My other points on you stand. You're still scum, especially considering how easily you could have made yourself clear there.

You don't even have an excuse to tunnel on me while doing jack shit, by the way. You're still scum.

And since I've actually turned in to an asshole while responding to you, I will refrain from any further comment regarding, or responding to you, unless it actually contains content. Because you've pretty much not actually given me any content to work with, and I'm tired of pointing out to everyone that your argument on me isn't a far cry from a monkey jumping around shouting "HE'S SCUM LYNCH LYNCH LUNCH", which hasn't actually resulted in me making any advances in proving your scumminess.

I'll be looking at other players in further depth now that I'll not be wasting my time talking to someone who is borderline incoherent.

[ICEninja]

School sucks sometimes.

I'll be spending a block of time today seeing if there's anything I missed. I'm still feeling good about where my vote is, despite Grey's intended meaning of the slip, but I know there is scum hiding away in the shadows, especially with me and Grey being so loud.

If I decide to leave my vote on Grey (the most likely situation), I'll post a condensed form of my case against him.

[ICEninja]

More votes on Kimor

Convince me why.

CKD seems pretty town to me. In reading through his posts, I see sufficiently defending his positions and responded to cases against him without losing sight of scum hunting.

I really feel like scum is hiding in pidgey or Shamrock, though I'd be surprised if they both were based on how the jason wagon formed.

Jason himself is, well, not my preferred lynch for today. However, I suspect with the way this game is set up, we may end up being forced to lynch between multiple claimed power roles, and I may be inclined to revisit the thought of a jason wagon if other claims feel more believable. Sword's 366 is also fairly convincing. With the information we currently have, however, I do not want to lynch him day 1.

Kimor is still suspicious, and I could probably tolerate a Kimor lynch, but it's still not my #1.

Grey's post 173 continues to be the worst post of this game so far. I explain in detail why in this post. Furthermore, after skimming his entire ISO, I've found virtually no explanation of why he even finds me scum. I'm just apparently on his kill list for no reason. He's done a significant amount of distracting town, calls people scum in association with me without even having my flip, refuses to respond to cases against him, and uses emotional attacks when pressed to account for his actions. I don't see any other player more likely to be scum than him. Then even if he ends up being town, we'd be rid of a huge distraction.

Unless anyone specifically requests my thoughts/comments on a player slot, I don't feel it would benefit town for me to really go in to detail about everyone.

[ICEninja]

I declare Sixty to be confirmed town for the rest of the day, regardless of alignment.

All joking aside, I pretty much agree with everything that comes from that playerslot.

I laughed out loud a little when Grey accused me of attacking him without much of a case.

[ICEninja]

The fact that town doesn't seem to realize how scummy GreyICE is is starting to hurt my brain.

I really don't want to have to end up lynching Kimor simply because town can't come up with a better lynch. Why does everyone refuse to acknowledge

how scummy

Grey's 173 was. For anyone who doesn't remember the context, i explain why this is so ridiculously bad.

[ICEninja]

The only thing that's changed my opinions on anything in the past couple pages is Zdenek's 419. Pretty good post, and a bit of an eye opener about StefanB. Not the best lynch, but if we can't get one on Grey, i'm about even with StefanB and Kimor right now.

Grey's alignment will tell us loads about jason, though. I'm pretty damn sure they're the same alignment, so a scum flip on Grey will give us a ridiculously good start to the game. There are a couple players I'd be pretty sure are town if he flips town, too.

While I feel the points against Kimor are justified, I agree that the wagon on him feels sketchy.

Oh and, the only time I've EVER had this difficult of a time building a wagon on someone I was so sure was scum was when I was right. I literally can't think of any time I've had this much resistance when trying to lynch town. At this point if anyone doesn't realize why I think Grey is scum they're either not reading my posts or are brain dead.

[ICEninja]

Are you kidding me? With the amount of people who strongly feel one way or another about Grey's alignment, either flip would give us loads. If we, for example, lynched Kimor and he flipped town then we'd have NOTHING, because people's opinions on him don't seem to have that much conviction.

Jason, CKD, Sixty, hell even me, and to a lesser extent the people who have soft defended him (such as FLP) will have light shed upon their alignments based on his flip.

MoI, I won't request anything but it might be a decent idea to consider replacing Klick. He was prodded twice in quick succession, and followed said prods up with a 4 day V/LA before posting content. Just food for thought.

[ICEninja]

CKD you're the one obviously not reading the game. Notice that I dropped the day talk slip?

Grey meant, by his comment, that I was hunting (he used the words tracking down, which is why it was confusing, it read as how we interpreted it but it's understandable how he meant it) the people in my quick topic. What he should have said was hunting down the people in my role PM.

Either way, Grey is still scummy as hell but you're voting him for a reason that's already been cleared in thread, and you're accusing other people of not reading the thread because they aren't pushing someone for a reason that's been made obsolete?

I hate to call out someone pushing the lynch I want but holy shit you're looking scummy now.

[ICEninja]

I'm perfectly down with today's lynch being between CKG and Grey.

We all know where my preference stands.

A side note, I feel like a Grey scum flip invalidates my suspicions on CKG. His push on Grey sheeping my weakest reasoning, and continuing to do so after it was sufficiently explained, feels like either a bad scum push on town or bumbling town who happens to be pushing on someone who is probscum.

[ICEninja]

CKD sorry typo.

Was your 450/451 saying you no longer feel that he scumslipped? It sure looked like you're still pressuring him about it and getting on his case for not responding to you. When he had very clearly responded to the same point regarding me.

[ICEninja]

CKD,

he. did. not. refer. to. scum. having. day. talk.

He worded what he said in a way that indicated he did (which is why we both, and many others, interpreted it incorrectly) but we were wrong. It isn't a "maybe he did maybe didn't", it was a "it looked like he did, but he didn't".

AND HE DID RESPOND TO IT, just ridiculously late, and after insane amounts of discussion. Which is part of why I'm fairly certain he's scum. But if he isn't, then you are for sure.

[ICEninja]

"It's hard to scumhunt when you're trying to track down the people in your quicktopic and it's unsuccessful."

[ICEninja]

[ICEninja]

CKD, I'm referring to this post, which is your most recent post summarizing how you feel about Grey.

You're very clearly hinging everything on the fact that he said anything about day talk at all, and his responses or lack of responses to a misread of what he said.

[ICEninja]

Good puppy. Here's a townie treat.

[ICEninja]

Thor, the reasons we're lynching GreyICE are:

1) The first half of my post 210. You may stop reading when I refer to his scum slip, as Grey worded that phrase poorly and caused mucho misunderstanding. Essentially the main points are how Grey lies and misreps how I respond to pressure early in the game, and refuses to acknowledge it for many many posts (and still never really acknowledges it, just kind of brushes it off really).

2) Much of Sixty's ISO, but the main point is really right here in puppy post 384. Bonus points for actually referencing you before you even joined, no??

GreyICE is still full of etc. When Town, GreyICE actually shows some semblance of reasoning. Unlike some players who do it regardless of alignment (MoI and Thor for one), Grey-Town does not argue just to win arguments. The way he is behaving around ICEninja in particular is especially indicative of this, as he keeps distorting everything ICEninja says as having scum intent, when it is very clear, should he back off for a moment (which Town Grey does, that :ANGER: is a pretty façade), that ICEninja is several levels of obvTown out of his element.

3) All of Shamorck's post 457. This is a good point about how Grey isn't doing anything to actually convince people I'm scum, despite having multiple opportunities to convince people.

[ICEninja]

Hmm green goodposting. That's a good catch regarding CKD's going through a lot of trouble to explain why an alcohol induced action is normal for him.

I guess I still prefer a Grey lynch, but at this point I really feel like I'm fine with either.

Shmugen gets townpoints for that post too ^

[ICEninja]

Townpoints I've earned are fine. Charity townpoints for common sense statements are unnecessary.

Humor will not be found in my meta. This game is the exception.

I'm actually getting a scum vibe on that waste of space.

Without having read the game, I can understand this. I have, however, requested green to get an avatar no fewer than 3 occasions, explaining why here:

QUICK COMMENT: greenknight please get an avatar. I remember who posts what more by a glance at the avatar than reading their name. Because of this, I literally cannot remember a single thing you've posted without reading back on it.

[ICEninja]

@ICEninja - that is awesome that this is the point of my wall you wish to discuss...I still have a scum read on you.

I thoroughly agree with everything you said, aside from calling me scummy. What else needed discussion?

[ICEninja]

We've got less than 4 days until deadline. Due to the nature of this game, I wouldn't a little extra time to discuss claims.

I'm feeling a lot of resistance to Grey's lynch, which makes me feel really good about it. Wagons do NOT easily build up around scum on day 1, and generally take town really fighting for them.

While CKD is a reasonable counter wagon of sorts, anybody who has their vote on someone OTHER than Grey or CKD is essentially not voting. Scum absolutely love to have their vote in useless places under pretense of a well reasoned vote regardless of the outcome of the lynch (distancing themselves from a town wagon, and hoping to prevent a scum buddy lynch, being ready to hop on a counterwagon the instant it forms).

If you have VERY compelling reasons why neither CKD or GreyICE should be lynched, either make them very clear or move your damn vote.

PEDIT: Klick had enough time to read Thor's comment and respond to it. Which is a lot more time than it takes to bold a vote. Considering how inactive he's been for the second half of the day, he's creeping up my secondary scum list.

[ICEninja]

Georgia Borden. Not fullclaiming, but I have a Daycop ability. Thor is not town-aligned.

Um. What? Bull smurf.

Alright I know this is a bastard game, but my role makes 100% sense with the flavor. Unless you explain that power there's no way I'm going to believe that GEORGIA BORDEN, the chick werewolf, is going to be a daycop when we very likely have AT LEAST Murphy, and possibly one or both of Carmichael and Stallings who, in the book are all cops. AAAANNDDD if there's a Georgia claim, there's probably a scum Dalton, who was a crooked FBI agent who I wouldn't be at all surprised if he had some kind of role investigation ability.

In fact, if I was putting together a game and giving people fake claims, I would give my scum Dalton a fake claim of one of the good guy werewolves, and a power that would make sense with both.

Based on Kimor's play, I don't exactly doubt the result, but I'm super shady on that claim.

This "pidgey's censorship makes him scum" smurf needs to stop RIGHT now. We can discuss it tomorrow, but all that is going on is we are being distracted from closing out day 1 with a scum lynch.

(I'm kind of liking this replacing swear words with smurf. I literally laughed out loud when Thor swapped my word for smurf when quoting me, it confused the smurf out of me for a few seconds!)

[ICEninja]

Hmm well...werewolves do have heightened senses, and a tracker claim from Georgia would make absolute 100% sense.

I suppose the flavor could be twisted a bit to make it work. What I'm more thinking about is Stefan's post 563, reminding me that scum Klick has a lot more to lose than gain in this situation. However, my most recent game involved my scum buddy Equinox claiming day cop on day 1 and it was hugely advantageous for us. I also lost a game a while back because scum fake claimed day cop and no one believed that move could have come from scum.

I suppose I knee jerk reacted to the claim, not believing it, but this situation is a bit different. If Klick and GreyICE are scum buddies, then this would be a preposterously stupid move. So in my eyes, we really have 1 of 3 situations:
1) Klick is scum, and is playing a gambit for motives OTHER than saving a scum buddy.
2) Klick is town, is telling the truth, and Thor is indeed scum. Or at least he believes he's telling the truth anyway, bastard game after all. Georgia is among the most sane of all the characters in story though, Georgia being an insane day cop just doesn't make sense.
3) Klick is town, lied about his claim, and probably damaged town significantly. (If this is the case, I BEG YOU to unclaim and explain your actions).

It does kind of seem like 2 is the most likely, to be honest. And if it's 1, the likelihood of us getting a lynch on scum during day 2 is quite good.

I need a few hours to mull this over. It kind of looks like (in cost/benefit analysis terms) that the positives of acting upon Klick's claim outweigh the negatives.

[ICEninja]

Actually I meant to explain:

StefanB's 563 didn't directly make me realize this, but upon mulling it over I realized how much scum Klick would have to lose from doing this for the purpose of saving Grey scum buddy.

I still might prefer to lynch Grey, however, see how the night goes, and act upon this information tomorrow.

[ICEninja]

If the flavor is Georgia can smell the guilt/non guilt of a player I'd trust its sanity. The wolves track people by their superhuman senses on multiple occasions in the book. If you want to put the werewolves on a D&D alignment scale, they're pretty much lawful good and trustworthy. Nothing rattles them until book 12ish, and there's absolutely no reason to question their sanity. To be honest I'd trust the night actions of a confirmed Georgia more than my own.

To me Thor's statement reads as "please confirm this is real so I don't waste any further time on this game if it is" and that's more likely to be a scum PoV.

Really? To me it reads "please don't believe this obvious bullshit". Either he's town and he knows its obviously bullshit or he's scum and reacting exactly as town would/should in this situation. Had Thor flipped out and voted Klick on the spot, I wouldn't have had any reservations whatsoever lynching Thor right now, Grey can wait.

That being said, I've heard a fair amount about Thor being an exceptionally good player, so I'm doing my best to read it as null, and simply go off of the reasoning that town will VERY likely get a scum lynch because of this information one way or another.

I'm actually leaning towards believing Klick after thinking about it, despite giving Georgia daycop being weird. But I'm so hesitant to simply drop the Grey wagon, even for a day, based on how sure I was right on him.

[ICEninja]

What? The town reaction I generally see and expect regarding fake investigations is "WTF I know I'm town, X is lying, vote X."

1. This is a claimed Bastard setup.
2. It looked like a gambit to start.

So, yeah, that reaction would have been derp.

^ Exactly why I didn't insta vote.

But SoO is right, there IS scum between Thor, Grey, and Klick. Klick feels the least likely to be scum of the 3, so I've decided to trust him on this.

Unvote, Vote Thor665

. Sorry, Thor. Assuming you do indeed get lynched here, you've hardly had any time to play here and I legitimately feel bad for lynching you just a few RL days after you replace in. Hopefully we can play again someday.

[ICEninja]

Let's at least let him explain his confirming fluff first.

Actually...yes I second this. I need to hear the full claim. The fact that you're a day cop and not a tracker as Georgia is really bothering me.

Until then,

Unvote

.

[ICEninja]

Its on this page, dude...604

[ICEninja]

Wait what the HELL? You have a day cop ability, found scum, but have a night ability to kill? And you freaking outed everything? Your point about psychology makes the claim MUCH more believable, I'll admit, because I had forgotten she was a psychology buff. But even so, this whole thing reeks of either piss poor town play or scum playing at something weird.

My friend, if Thorscum doesn't die tonight you will die tomorrow.

I'll give you guys a couple hours to wrap up any discussion you want and will hammer Grey.

[ICEninja]

*facedesk* green is right we have to lynch Thor. This is urgh.

Vote Thor

[ICEninja]

I'm in a lot of turmoil right now but honestly...I think I'm just going to stick to my guns here. I'm staying with the Thor lynch.

Something is fishy here, but I don't think it's Klick being scum.

[ICEninja]

It fits really nicely, and well including a role with that flavor might be irresistible. I mean, I still think that Klick is town, but if this multiscum, Klick certainly wouldn't be cleared by Thor scum flip. I generally find the flavor arguments to be weak, but that is just *so cute*.

Holy shit, I even mentioned Agent Dalton earlier in the thread, saying I'd give Dalton either Billy or Georgia as a fake claim because they're both wolf-motif characters if I was designing this game. I can't believe I didn't think of this. It would also explain why Klick was so hesitant to go in to detail about his claim, because it might be on the weak side.

This makes an unbelievable amount of sense.

But at the same time...guilty on Thor. For a day 1 lynch. God dammit.

Thor's flip will be very telling for both Grey's alignment and Klick's. I say we go through with it, and deal with Klick/CKD/GreyICE tomorrow.

[ICEninja]

@ICE - please explain to me again how Klick's play looks scummy at all?

It looks fishy, there's something weird going on here, but I'm not thinking it's Klickscum UNLESS he's scum Agent Dalton, and you are non-Dalton-aligned scum. The name of your flip will be very very informative, I believe. Beyond that, I really can't say. We'll just have to play things out and see what happens.

Alright guys we're running close to deadline. I think we need to finish up this day. Honestly at this point, there is virtually zero town motivation (and plenty of scum motivation) to have your vote on someone other than Thor, Grey, or Klick, as there is no possible lynch outside of these 3. And I haven't seen any argument convincing enough to lynch Klick today, so it's pretty much lynch Grey now and deal with Thor tomorrow (or hope Klick can actually get the shot off...not counting on that) or lynch Thor now and deal with Grey tomorrow. Or Klick, if Thor ends up being innocent.

One thing I'd like to add here is that...Jason will be more likely to be able to use his night action on whoever dies the first night. I don't think there would be much of any use trying to talk to Grey, though. Thor would at least have some good insights. Grey would just fling smurf at me and possibly CKD from the grave.

[ICEninja]

Actually I just had a thought. What if Grey is town all along, and CKD is scum? The way Grey positioned himself as sort of a "its me vs him" situation, if Grey is town and dies day 1 that would look REALLY bad for CKD day 2. I can see scum buddy Klick moving in the way he did to prolong Grey's life which would potentially in turn prolong CKD's life.

It's a stretch though, and it doesn't really change my mind about Thor's lynch. However, I'd say if Thor and Grey both end up town, and either Klick or CKD turns up scum, I'll bet my cowboy hat that the other is scum.

[ICEninja]

Alright this discussion is fine and all but I think Thor's lynch should happen today (to give us a cushion of time for any other wrenches thrown in the game).

While I don't expect to see Grey back before day 2, FLP and jason are both inching their way up their scum list the longer they insist on not voting. A vote on CKD right now is, essentially, not voting.

[ICEninja]

From my research into the character - she thinks Harry Dresden is potentially insane - discuss.

She doesn't think this until much later in the series. Georgia is actually a quite minor character.

There are other things I could comment on, but it ultimately comes down to things I've already said or "let's just go ahead and lynch Thor already". Which I've already said.

[ICEninja]

Something happened to my post. I have no idea where it went. Anyways, I came to the conclusion that Klick simply cannot be Georgia because there's no rational way to give Georgia a kill, and that's what's been so fishy about all this.

Georgia is intelligent, shy, studious, and one of the most stable and intelligent humans (she is human, despite her ability to turn in to a wolf) in the first 3 books. It's a long stretch to give her a day cop, but I don't believe she killed ANYONE AT ALL in the first 3 books, so giving her a night kill is ridiculous.

Dalton, on the other hand, is a borderline insane FBI-agent-gone-rogue who accepted the ability to turn in to a wolf in order to go where the law couldn't. His wolf side's blood lust slowly consumed him. I can sooooooo very easily conceive Dalton being un-aligned with the gangsters and other evil forces, but have the EXACT powers Klick described, especially if he's insane day cop/night killer.

Klick is probably Dalton. But I don't feel like there's time to do anything about this so let's just lynch Grey today and figure out Klick/Thor tomorrow.

Unvote, Vote GreyICE

. You all have my permission to sheep this.

[ICEninja]

Grey is at L-1. Someone go ahead and hammer.

Sword, in response to you, I think Klick could very well be Dalton, who has the ability to find other scum. Dalton and Marcone, for example, would both be scum but absolutely not aligned.

[ICEninja]

ICninja. RE. 767. ARE YOU NOT PAYING ATTENTION TO ANYTHING ABOUT MOI AND ROLE-CHARACTER ASSIGNMENTS, IN NON-BASTARD GAMES? WE SHOULD EXPECT IT TO BE WORSE HERE.

Alright so I heard MoI gave one character a completely out of character role in a past game. And it's a bastard game. That's nice. The role, flavor, response I got from MoI when I asked a question about my role, what I can/cannot do, all make as much sense within the flavor as they possibly can. I'm going to assume that a majority of the roles in this game are going to make sense.

I would like to lynch Thor based on the fact that we have a guilty on him, I wouldn't mind lynching Klick based on how suspicious his role claim is after thinking everything through, but honestly both of those things really require more time and discussion.

There will be time tomorrow. Just lynch Grey already.

[ICEninja]

They're not stupid. But something isn't right with Klick's claim so it has to wait.

[ICEninja]

I'm home from the bar and Grey isn't lynched yet.

I'm disappointed.

[ICEninja]

I think the GrayICE wagon has come about too easily and he is town

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

[ICEninja]

We're getting uncomfortably close to the deadline.

Can someone please hammer?

[ICEninja]

Also, if you really think the GreyICE case is bad look at this again.
viewtopic.php?p=4433109#p4433109

The case is not bad and isn't even meta based except for some people - but that's the point I'm sheeping.

SERIOUSLY. WHY IS EVERYONE IGNORING THE 2 POINTS THAT HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH META?

LYNCH GREY FOR SMURFS SAKE.

[ICEninja]

he mentions daytalk

Oh my GOD do you seriously still not get it?

NO HE DIDN'T

.

This is

NOT

why we're lynching him, but it is why we would be considering lynching

you

tomorrow if it wasn't for this mess with Klick's investigation.

[ICEninja]

And if someone doesn't hammer in the next few hours, a no lynch will be happening and I will probably consider every single person not voting for Grey personally responsible for that.

[ICEninja]

Let it be written in stone that i prefer a thor lynch though.

And your reasoning for it makes sense. I wavered on this for a while, but ultimately we need to deal with Thor/Klick tomorrow. There are simply too many problems with Klick's claim.

CKD...
Look we

know

Grey worded it poorly. We

know

what it looked like he said.

Do you seriously not have any clue why we're lynching Grey? Because you're the only one on a 9 man wagon saying what you're saying. Think about that.

[ICEninja]

ninja, you know his attack on you was bullshit.

Yes, that's why we're lynching him.

I know you are voting him, but I am not sure why you are defending him.

do you think he MEANT something different in that post?

I'm not defending him. I'm telling you that you're wrong and that he did indeed mean something different in that post. I've got a case to make for you being scum tomorrow though, not enough time to dig up all the posts, but if we read several of specific posts you've made in isolation together...it's fishy as hell.

[ICEninja]

Man now you're trying to become some sort of Fate/Thor hybrid.
We do not need that.

I don't really know what you mean by this or how to respond.

I actually believe CKD looks better, because he clearly believes what he's selling because...wow.

If you survive the night, then we'll have a chat about CKD's posts where he flat out denies that any part of his case is relevant to these words: "It's hard to scumhunt when you're trying to track down the people in your quicktopic and it's unsuccessful."

Yet looking at his play, especially this page, very very clearly indicates that almost his entire case is based off of those words, and how Grey responded to CKD questioning him regarding those words.

[ICEninja]

It isn't derp, it's not having a clue why you're trying to lynch someone.

[ICEninja]

Alright so Grey was a Godfather Role blocker. We also now know there are 2 scum teams (Unseelie means fay, supernatural, and there is almost guaranteed to be a gangster based).

Parker was a gangster, and very likely aligned with Marcone. Susan was Harry's girlfriend.

Now had Klick been Dayton and got a legit night kill, it would have been, as he described it, a fangs and claws kill. If he was lying about who he was, then I actually think Klick would have night killed someone other than Thor, and that Thor was somehow protected. Grey being a role blocker suggests they could actually be scum buddies.

Had a random person died to fangs and claws, (which was what I was expecting), Klick would have simply claimed his kill got redirected, and I wouldn't have believed him. However, it looks like he got role blocked instead. No town would have actually wanted to role block Klick, because Thor dying and flipping town gives us scum to kill today in Klick, and obviously Thor dying and flipping scum means scum dies.

So town role blocking Klick makes zero sense. Scum role blocking him makes all to much. And a role blocker just flipped. I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt on his claim.

Vote Thor

.

[ICEninja]

If there are that many kills flying around, too, I'd wager a guess that there's at least one night kill immune player.

[ICEninja]

Alright I've been considering what to do with this information. I believe this is useful for town to know, but because the information I have is vague, I'm not going to really full claim anything.

However,

my role information SUGGESTS that Klick is telling the truth

. It is inconclusive, but I'm willing to bet a lynch on it. I'd prefer to not say more than that.

[ICEninja]

I really don't want to say more. What I have is inconclusive information that

suggests

he is who he says he is.

Unless there are bastard mechanics coming in to play (which, to be perfectly honest, my role flavor left room for bastard mechanics) then Klick is probably who he claims to be. Based on knowledge of the series, I'm inclined to believe that Georgia is sane.

Thor's switch to lynching Klick today after yesterday brushing him off as town

strongly

reinforces my beliefs.

I don't want this to be a speed lynch, but at the same time I feel like this has to go between Klick and Thor, and should play out reasonably quickly. Honestly, without my role information I would be voting Klick right now under the assumption that he is actually Dalton, but with what I know I'm going to believe Klick for now. Others may do as they please with that information, as I really don't have anything strong enough to really convince anyone of anything unless they already trust me.

@Klick, since I'm inclined to believe you for the moment, my personal preference regarding what you should do with your day action is to hit CKD, but not until we've had a few pages to discuss things. Don't wait until last minute, though.

[ICEninja]

Just to be 100% clear, you're saying that you think Klick's flavor claim is truthful but can't say either way on his power?

Pretty much.

[ICEninja]

I would like to note something:

Deadline is going to fall on a holiday weekend. While I will still be able to have some level of activity up through the last 3 days, it's going to be less than normal, and I suspect others will be in the same boat or even worse. I therefore suggest we come to a lynch by Wednesday the 21st (9 days from now). The fact that we have a cop claim with a guilty should make this a fairly simple matter, as it is mostly deciding how much you believe the cop claim or not.

As for CKD asking me what I found fishy, I noted yesterday that I feel like accurate flavor wouldn't give Georgia a night kill. I still believe that part of the claim is fairly strange (and gives her a very assassin feel), but I'm now at least somewhat confident that Klick is who he says he is, and I'm not sure why he'd lie about his role if he is who he says he is.

Mod, I noticed an inconsistency in the role reveals for Bianca and Parker/Susan that I would like rectified if possible

.

GreyICE - Bianca St. Claire, Investigation Immune Roleblocker for the Unseelie Cabal was lynched Day 1.

This one clearly shows what alignment and what team Bianca is on. We know there is an Unseelie Cabal.

StefanB - Parker, Action Attractor had his heart explode Night 1.

Zdenek - Susan Rodriguez, Tracking Cop was repeatedly shot Night 1.

These 2 do not have that. Can we clarify which teams these flipped players are on?

[ICEninja]

Oh and as regard to actually voting on things other than role based information, Thor seems to be attempting to rapidly switch tactics to see if any relieves pressure on him. This is, in my experience, most commonly observed in desperate scum that know they're in a bind.

[ICEninja]

Well... are they the same color as your role?

Oh damn, you're right.

Why the hell is Parker town aligned?

And as per why Bianca is aligned Unseelie, I think that's just the name MoI gave "supernatural" scum, as opposed to say, Marcone and Hendrix. (though considering the contract Marcone signs later in the series, this is ironic.)

[ICEninja]

Damn I was excited when I saw Parker getting NKed, I thought scum crossfired.

[ICEninja]

Bianca isn't a part of the unseelie herself, but if you recall in the 3rd book, Bianca throws her "party", where Lea is invited out of respect. They're not one in the same, but I understand how MoI could group them together.

[ICEninja]

jason is wasting his vote because it isn't going on Thor/Klick (something jason likes to do, which makes me not like jason) but I can't say I hate the ABR vote. I think ABR actually has a good chance of being scum.

I'm REALLY liking the Thor wagon so far, as multiple town reads are on it.

I honestly don't see a lot of meaningful discussion happening in the mean time, however. I would say now might be a good time for Klick to go ahead and investigate again.

My suspicion of CKD is pretty much based on the fact that he and Grey aren't scum buddies. I really do NOT see CKD busing that powerful of an ally, unless all the scum are ridiculously strong (which is a moderately scary thought), especially when there was Thor to go after. However, CKD looks pretty suspicious. I'll put together a case against him when it is relevant to do so, but since I'm not really interested in seeing anyone other than Thor hang today (unless we have new information) now isn't the time.

My other 2 scum reads are jason and ABR.

Klick, since I doubt too much more helpful discussion will happen today without new information, now might not be a bad time to throw down another investigation. You know my preference of where it goes, but I'll leave it up to you.

[ICEninja]

Thanks for admitting your scum, pidgey.

Go ahead and toss pidgey on to the probscum pile.

Sorry for the awkwardness of my last post, I accidentally didn't preview it where I would have noticed that I repeated stuff.

[ICEninja]

Pidgey, just because I agree it's SLIGHTLY suspicious (I didn't happen to remember what color my role PM was in either, and I thought Parker would be scum so I didn't connect the dots on color saying anything about alignment either, so it is quite minor indeed) my reasons for suspecting ABR are pretty much unrelated to that.

Voting someone based on what you did when we have something so much better to go off of today, however, is no bueno. ESPECIALLY since yesterday you had a scum read on Thor independent of the cop guilty on him.

(though, with the Jason and Pidgey side adventure onto Albert I'm thinking both you and I are wrong about some aspect of that trio)

I'd put money that exactly one of the 3 is scum. I'm not sheeping you, either, these are my own reads. I've disliked jason for quite some time now, ABR has been gradually increasing on my scum list the longer he continues to be useless, and pidgey pretty much just for what he's done so far day 2.

because that's actually not a real endorsement of the wagon unless you can put into words why it's a good wagon.

Maybe it has something to do with the fact that a person who I believe is more or less telling the truth has a cop guilty on you? Not that it's a terribly important detail or anything >_>.

Looking at Thor's behavior yesterday (defending the person who had a guilty on him) and shift to today (Klick is obviously scum and has to die) along with a few other smaller inconsistencies suggests that a night action Thor was hoping to happen, didn't. That or a scum buddy proposed a plan of action. I'm honestly not sure yet. I think Grey's buddy tried to kill Klick last night to insure Thor's death today (if Klick flipped cop, obviously Thor is going to get rope) but StefanB pulled the shot to himself. Thor/Thor's buddy killing Zdenek makes plenty of sense, but we have no idea what night actions scum could have.

As fishy as Klick's role claim is, I'm inclined to believe he is who he says he is, and therefore am inclined to believe that Thor is indeed guilty.

[ICEninja]

Shouldn't it concern you that you and 'scum' have come to near identical reads through different methods?

Not at all. Scum genuinely scum hunt when there are multiple teams, especially since there is possibly a 3rd party somewhere, and scum give their partners scum reads as well sometimes. You're a good player, you found Greyscum. I wouldn't be surprised if you've got another one pegged.

2. I'm insulted you think I'd be going with a scumbuddy's plan - feel free to tell me which player here you think I'd seek out for advice or alter my play for because they told me to?

Good players are always open to suggestions.

5. You and I both know your role info has to be pretty gakky right now. So don't hide behind it.

It's not the only thing I'm going on. Yeah it's on the gakky side, but it's something. If you do indeed flip town then I'll know to lynch Klick and ignore my role information. This in itself is hugely valuable, as we'll have lynched scum and I'll know how valuable my role is(n't).

And, CKD, you're right. Klick's actions are sketchy as hell. Believe me it's crossed my mind that my role's information is incorrect, but it would be foolish to completely ignore it.

[ICEninja]

2. What if I came out with a bit of self-meta that said I'd never done that - ever? What would be you reply?

Then I would assume you've got a night action that changed your mind about things.

3. The point is, if your result is gakky that shouldn't be part of your case. Look at the two of us as players regardless of your role info (feel free to include his) now what do you see? Still a 'Thor needs to go first' situation?

Had I forgotten to turn in a night action, or had I been blocked, or whatever, I probably would be voting for Klick at the moment, largely for what I said about Dalton last night and what CKD has been saying today. However, I simply cannot in good conscious ignore the information I have, even if I can't guarantee its reliability.

[ICEninja]

Georgia being insane...erg. I don't like it. Nothing in the books would suggest this at all. But both Thor AND green being scum? This is a bit much.

Unvote

. I need to think about things. I'm strongly considering playing day 2 as if I'm a VT and no one claimed anything.

[ICEninja]

Hmm. Well, a town flip of Klick would almost certainly give us a scum lynch on green. Which I like. It would also give me very strong reason to believe Thor is indeed scum. It would make for one of the most optimal mislynches we could get.

And obviously if Klick is scum then that's a win right there; I'm fine with starting day 3 with knowledge that my night action isn't useful, little to go on, but 2 scum dead.

I'll hold my vote for the moment as I'm not really sure if I want to see this speed lynched, but there are now some very compelling reasons to lynch Klick.

[ICEninja]

What's your read on the Thor/Sixty interaction. because either I'm being shockingly unreasonable and don't realize it - or he is looking scummy and dodgy as all get out.

I like your reasoning for ABRscum and jasonscum more than Sixty does. However, I don't think Sixty is scum.

If he was "delivered a message" by a fairy, it would not be a member of either court. While this isn't revealed in the first 3 books, the lesser fay that wizards call upon aren't aligned one way or another. Said fairy would, by compulsion, have no alignment at all except perhaps to Harry himself, who literally bribes them with pizza.

While the lesser fay are easily distracted, I think this plays more in to who was told the message, as in the books to my memory their information was ALWAYS accurate and helpful.

[ICEninja]

And I agree, I would like a 100% full claim from Klick, paraphrase everything in the role PM.

[ICEninja]

Do you see town logic in how he's discussing the ABR case with me?

Considering how, at the moment considering the information we have, I'm not any more interested in discussing it with you than Sixty, yes I can.

[ICEninja]

Look, Thor. You've presented your opinion of ABR. I feel you've got a decent point. Sixty disagrees with you.

If you'd like to share your opinion of ABR again, I'll be happy to somewhat agree with you again while Sixty dismisses it as non helpful information again.

[ICEninja]

Why is it the only person I think is who they say they are is the only lynch that makes sense?

And why does that echo my life so depressingly well? -_-

[ICEninja]

Ignore my last post, I was drunk and depressed last night.

[ICEninja]

After carefully scrutinizing the wording of my role PM, I feel there is a plausible enough of a chance that my role information is inaccurate. I don't want to explain what I believe the conditions to be because scum could use this information against me.

Given the circumstances, the fairy, and simply how much Klick's role claim DIDN'T make sense, I believe lynching him truly is our best play. Even if my role information holds true and Klick is who he says he is, that isn't a bad thing because we've got an almost guaranteed scum lynch on green, and a very probable followup on Thor.

PEDIT I put Klick to L-1 in my original but Shamrock just did it. I'd like Klick to come back and speak in his defense, knowing my intent to hammer sometime in the next few days.

[ICEninja]

Holy crap, I have such a ridiculous amount to say about this game that I'm literally feeling overwhelmed about it and don't really want to actually do it. So I'll just touch on a few things.

I would like to personally take credit for the Grey's lynch on day 1. I know I wasn't the only one pushing it but for crying out loud I pushed hard and early.

As for my statement's about green being scummy because of not having an avatar, OBVIOUSLY I DIDN'T FIND HIM SCUMMY, I just really wanted him to get a damn avatar, I wasn't kidding in the reasoning I gave. I don't look at names.

I had vast suspicions that my powers only worked for redscum, despite never having been told this. Due to the fact that out of 2.5 possible scum to investigate, 1 of them was investigation immune, and there was also a miller. When I pulled my role I was like "WHOO IM SO STRONG" and then I eventually realized...wow I had a pretty weak role in the grand scheme of things.

A question for MoI...what result would I have gotten had I investigated Sells? Would he have come back not guilty (and thus make my investigation role actually negative, being that I can accidentally clear/incorrectly convict more people than I can actually get a guilty on meaning my investigation was actually ANTI-TOWN)?

SoO played great this game. So did Sixty. I think I like Tierce hydras *chuckle*.

Klick you're a moron. I don't want to play any more games with you in it, in fear of being on your team next time. The people who mentioned that you were a terrible player early on were completely justified. I'm sorry I don't mean to be cruel, but I really haven't seen many examples of worse play than yours.

CKD, sorry you had to go through that. I would have replaced out instead of getting that upset. If a game makes me that upset I stop playing it, it just isn't worth it.

One final note, this game was very enjoyable. Thank you very much MoI for putting it together. Honestly I would have preferred a non-bastard game that followed the flavor more closely but the experience of playing in a large bastard theme game having played almost exclusively smaller normal setups opened my eyes to the joys of playing this game a little less seriously.

AND FUCK YOU FOR MAKING KARRIN SCUM OMG. WE AREN'T FRIENDS ANYMORE. Jk <3

[ICEninja]

I was the only one shoving on Grey, and I was sitting there wondering if I was insane because no one else realized how scummy he was. For quite a while. It made me sad.

[ICEninja]

Zdenek, I mean LONG before the guilty claim.

Then as soon as Klick claimed day cop vigilante I knew I had to investigate that fool before I could take his word for anything.

[ICEninja]

Oh and woot, looks like I got some respect from Thor in their QT.

[ICEninja]

Oh and for the record I'm curious...was my catch on Grey's "slip" genuine? Since scum really do have daytalk, did I catch it or did I really just misunderstand that he meant tracking down?

[ICEninja]

And I think it was successful as Shamrock, Vi and ICENinja all made comments at some point driven by the flavor that led the to correct assessments of hidden elements of the game.

Pshh I made comments PREGAME that I had an idea that my doc protection only worked on one faction, and suspected that my cop read behaved similarly.

Had you investigated Sells you would have gotten a result of Not Guilty. You only successfully investigated those aligned with the Chicagoland Mafia (or the Miller to that faction). Your role was not intended to be ‘strong’ – in fact the option to Doc protect someone should have, to some degree, signaled this.

It actually wasn't strong at all. Zdenek and I should have stuck, the entire game, to our non investigative abilities. Let me explain why:
Out of the 5 scum, 2 and a half are redscum. Dalton can only be investigated by myself when other redscum still live. Murphy is investigation immune and therefore will turn up not guilty. Both of the bluescum turn up not guilty. That leaves exactly 1 redscum who will always come up as guilty, and one redscum who will come up as not guilty in a majority (but not all) of situations. PLUS there is Marcone who was an uninformed miller. Therefore although there was slightly less than 2 people who I could investigate and profit from, there were 4 full members who I could investigate and seriously damage town.

The added sting is that my duality is NOT revealed upon death. Had I investigated and cleared Sells, after Bianca's investigation immune flip everyone will know there are no more investigation immune bluescum. However, when I die, I flip bodyguard cop with no indication that my cop on bluescum will fail, thus making that particular failed investigation absolutely

devastating

. Considering how close I was to investigating Thor instead of Klick, this

very

much scares me, as the game could have gone very VERY differently had that happened.

The bulletproof bodyguard role is MUCH MUCH more useful, as it would almost cut in half (not quite because of dresden's kill) the likelihood of both myself and another player dying. There's the downside of reducing cross kills, but Dalton was there to reduce the impact of those (at least early on). If I were to play this exact same setup again as either Carmichael or Susan, I would honestly pretend that investigation doesn't exist because it's poison.

Which, considering this is a bastard game and how this game was set up, is actually kind of awesome. I'm not ragging on your setup here, I actually find it quite brilliant. Frustrating as hell for me (and potentially Zden if he survived the first night) but brilliant.

[ICEninja]

Good lord I'm just thinking right now about what would have happened had I investigated Thor. Klick would have likely been quick lynched because I would have counter claimed him, Thor would have been cleared as town, both Zdenek and I would be dead before revealing anything about our dualities, and

both investigation immune scum would have flipped

, meaning that no one would have even the slightest inkling that my investigation on Thor wouldn't have been accurate.

Kowona wouldn't have shot Thor, and would have either not fired or killed a townie, thus losing his vote and probably preventing him from shooting again for the rest of the game or risk suicide. With Thor, who is a fairly good player, cleared and alive until redscum decides to cross kill him, there would have been deaths. SoO would likely have eaten it eventually, as well as Sixty, thus having that ON INVESTIGATION CHANGE making the difference between town steamrolling scum and a close game.

[ICEninja]

Iceninja you didn't trust your own investigate on Klick as 100% reliable, why would you have trusted it on thor?

Because Thor was a reasonable sounding player, and Klick claimed Georgia as day cop night vig. I doubted my investigate because I didn't believe the results could have possibly been accurate. Had Klick came back guilty I would have believed them 100% blindly.

And I agree 100% that Marcone being the role he is actually makes plenty of sense. Marcone is, very quite literally, mafia, but he's also honorable and his reign as mafia king has noticeably reduced crime in Chicago because it can only happen with his say-so. Murphy being scum is just disgusting though, as it just absolutely flips who she is upside down.

The only thing I don't like about Marcone being town is that Hendricks is still scum. As Marcone's personal bodyguard, I don't really like them being the same alignment. I'm not sure who else MoI could have used for redscum in his place, though. I would have much preferred to see Rudolph as a corrupt cop.

[ICEninja]

...Look, just read the books already.

Seriously. If you haven't read them, read them. You've got spoilers up the ass for the second book basically but that's about it. And the first 3 books, while VERY enjoyable and easy reads, are easily outdone by the following books as the series goes on.

[ICEninja]

I might consider th ebooks, but I'm already reading Song of Ice and Fire thanks to this forum, I'm not sure I need another series right now.

Butcher has written I think 13 books on this series now and has promised to write IIRC 22 so long as people keep buying them. Do NOT read the series unless you're OK with getting hooked. Because you can't just read one.

Actually if I'm being perfectly honest I MIIIIIGHT like the Codex Alera series more, there's 7 books and the series is finished. It's a little easier to swallow than a series that has 13 books already and won't be finished for another 5 years.