Street Racers: New York (Game over!)

[LlamaFluff]

Tomorrow.

[LlamaFluff]

Ten pages of skimming and I want Heather, JF and thez dead. First time in a bit actually ending with more scum than town reads early.

Will get at least halfway done today, but dealing with the fact that someone stole my car last night (literally, nothing game related) so I need to figure some stuff out before work tomorrow due to that.

[LlamaFluff]

Little over a third through

Here come to town reads...

Arc, Nacho, BAB, RT and PM are all town.

Whoever JF is should be dying still. JF is more obviously town when he is town. Jal and JS are also great votes. Maybe AJ, NJ and thez.

[LlamaFluff]

Read up to flip

So after Sixx flip can someone provide REALLY good reasoning as to why AJ or PV (JF) are not being lynched? PV in particular? I mean, I refuse to vig and I would be really tempted to kill him here.

@Nacho - Give me the MLB case.

[LlamaFluff]

So after Sixx flip can someone provide REALLY good reasoning as to why AJ or PV (JF) are not being lynched? PV in particular? I mean, I refuse to vig and I would be really tempted to kill him here.

How about INSTEAD, you explain why you think they're scummy?

Or I can make comments like that to get others looking at alternatives while I complete my catchup and possibly get commentary to see how and why my reads differ so greatly especially in context of the flip from Sixx which really compounds a PV-scum read.

You ignored my commentary though - are you calling those two town or are you just trying to avoid commenting on them and trying to discredit me while im catching up instead?

[LlamaFluff]

Well, with that post I'm not calling them town or scum. It just struck me as strange that you wanted someone to give you a case for why a person is scummy in an instance where the other players obviously thought either:

A) They are town.
B) They are null.
C) They aren't scummy enough to merit the vote.

Nacho is one of the only players in this game I at all recognize/trust, really rare for me to have played with this few in a game and apart from Nacho (lesser extent CKD, Parama, BS) I dont really recognize anyone as a player who could be called decent and only recoginze about half the game.

Got to the neighbor claim (null tell for Bumi, town for Darth, scum for the ones that pile on)

Im just going to

Vote PV

At this point because I dont see me voting someone else outside of something big happening in those last dozen-ish pages.

[LlamaFluff]

Llama, you

ARE

Parama.

Thats why this game is a bit more frustrating due to lack of trustable reads at face value.

[LlamaFluff]

Mostly caught up.

Neighbors need to figure out of the "doctor" claim matches their flavor in any way as "drives fast" and "everyone is a racer" doesnt make sense especially knowing my car. I would love to see a vehicle type claim from ztife because im not sure many can beat what im driving.

The "to die" list:

Peregrine (dies first)
---
AJ
JS
NJ
---
jmj
Sly

+-CKD, Jal, thez

You got lotta scum in the core list, by the remainder you are missing a couple max. Everyone else is town read of some extent, TML included. Doc claim is probably fake but I want to see what he has to say and what neighbors have to say first. Even with it looking swiss cheezy I almost like PV lynch more. His play is scummy in relation to six and in a vaccum.

[LlamaFluff]

@LF, are any of those town reads or all varying levels of scum?

They are "dies today scum" "acceptable to die today scum" and "probably not dying today but still scum scum"

Also, can you provide your case for PV?

Yes. I do work full time and cant access MS from the office though so it takes a bit.

I'm not even sure what to think of AA, I feel a lot of it is language barrier, though.

AA is one of the towniest players in the game. I think its maybe five I would lynch him over, if that, probably less.

[LlamaFluff]

Hmmm.... unless...

@Ztife - What mods does your car have that makes it count as a doctor. I think you are trying to cut corners and not give us everything because my car IS faster than your car... but just cut the BS and give the mods.

NO ONE ELSE HINT AT WHAT MODS THEY MAY HAVE UNTILL HE CLAIMS HIS.

Quick PV case incoming

[LlamaFluff]

ISO on Sixx, since he's new to me.

@Sixx: Top 3 scumreads and why. Top 3 townreads and why. Post numbers/links welcome.

@NJoseph- Ummmmm, how so? And how is it enough to change your playstyle, since in the end it's still just you?

This one with Six scum is terrible.

There are a ton of new players in this game unless somehow the open games I played are so isolated from the rest. I literally DONT RECOGNIZE seven players and thats really really rare for me.

The callout of Six in particular in a very coaching manner while not vocallizing anything on him is a pretty decent tell out of the gate. This increases because not giving reads is one of the reasons Six was getting wagoned, and thats exactly what PV is trying to get out of him while again, not comitting to a six read (or any reads really) of his own. The response from Six goes unnoted as well. The wagon on him never noted, a read never given.

Yupp.

vote bumi

I AM A NEIGHBOR WITH BUMI AND SHE WAS CONSISTANTLY DETRACTING FROM THE SIXX LYNCH. LOOK AT THE ISO. BUMI IS SCUM.

Going to have to look at the VCs (hinthint mastin-Bird), but I thought Zitfe was a counterwagon to Sixx.

But until then, yes.

Vote: Bumi

As I said, this is a major tell as is since its just easy for scum to slide onto a wagon like this. No need to give reasons, no need for him to scumhunt additionally, Darth has just given him all the reason in the world to vote and he takes it laying down reasoning that lets him stay or move on as needed.

PV does no scumhunting (like JF did - and JF reads town as town)

Quick JF bits though

-Votes thez for "having diffferent reads + want a lynch"
-Yeah thats about it, he did nothing else

The PV slot constantly drifts by giving no reads, and has almost a textbook interaction with Six as a partner by trying to point him in the right direction while avoiding doing anything soild with him. PV reads as scummy with Six, he reads as scummy by himself, he is the lynch here dependant on what mods Ztife has.

[LlamaFluff]

Just making sure that Sly is calling me scum for Parama assuming SC is a competent mod by giving scum safeclaims which he has done is EVERY SINGLE GAME in the past where safeclaims have been needed for scum. Can you name me some games where scum dont have fakeclaims but needed them? If you are going to call him scum for a slip it has to be making some sort of non-standard assumption or something that is true.

In fact...

You say that Parama assumes fakeclaims. Sixx real claims even with presumeably real flavor.... which would suggest scum DONT have fakeclaims. So Parama assuming that would be a null or town tell. So one of your biggest points NOW hinges on scum having fakeclaims AND Sixx deciding not to use one.

So try harder. But you are scum so its predictable.

[LlamaFluff]

Llama, the main point of my case is the one you didn't address. Parama confirmed a Cop faction before the modkill. I know you didn't miss it, so that also tells me you know it's indisputable or you would have attempted to discredit it too.

He just followed up the part of the case you are trying to discredit. I've never played in a SC game that I am aware, so I'm not going to take Parama at face value, especially after his Cop faction confirming.

Well okay, so one point is completely out the window.

The second one is even easier to discredit (although props for saying "yes point one is horrible" and trying to turn it around) because he NEVER SAID COPS ARE A FACTION.

All he actually did was say that Six claimed a cop car. It would be like if he claimed a Crown Vic or something that if you know cars, you know is a cop car. Lets assume for a second that Parama was scum with Six, when his partner (to him) faction slips do you think he really just goes "oh he has a cop car" knowing the ENTIRE FACTION probably has cop cars?

Someone as aggressive as Parama doesnt hard bus there? Really? Instead opting to defend a partner who would be confirmed scum down the road? Really?

So yeah, you already admitted that the safeclaim point of your case is worthless... so to keep your case you basically are first taking the leap of "Six has a cop car" ment "scum all have cop cars" or something way out there like that was a cop-scum reaction to a partner claiming something that in context of the game was a scum claim.

I dont think you are this stupid, so its more of a question of are you scum with or without Six (really it could easily be either).

[LlamaFluff]

You are really going to hurt yourself one of these days if you stretch like that.

He never said that, regardless of if its what you WANTED him to say or not. "All cops do is look for bad drivers" sounds like a joke about cops only pulling people over for speeding IN REAL LIFE instead of "cops are a faction" because if he is calling cops a faction probably would have been voting what would have been confirmed scum to him.

You also ignored the fact that for your first part of the case (which you dismissed now) to be true Parama couldnt have been scum with Six because Six would have had a fakeclaim. There is a pretty major confliction in your case right there.

Just to make sure I got your case right:

The joke remark in 1095 is Parama claiming cops are a faction, however cop faction doesnt have fakeclaims like Parama claimed they would, or they had safeclaims and scum elected not to use it knowing cops are scum.

[LlamaFluff]

"All cops do is look for bad drivers" sounds like a joke about cops only pulling people over for speeding IN REAL LIFE instead of "cops are a faction" because if he is calling cops a faction probably would have been voting what would have been confirmed scum to him.

Now who's stretching. That was not a joke. However you want to twist it, he confirmed that cops are not MRC in this game. Him telling me to stop digging confirms his lack of humor in his points.

Okay. So Parama acknowledged Six claimed scum as scum with him and didnt do anything to bus the partner who eventually would be caught by flavor. Make sense. What makes more sense is the common "cops dont do anything but go after regular drivers" complaint as a joke.

Because really, for this to be true you need to assume that Parama KNOWS that Six is going to be caught by flavor but opts to defend him.

You also ignored the fact that for your first part of the case (which you dismissed now) to be true Parama couldnt have been scum with Six because Six would have had a fakeclaim.

I didn't dismiss anything. Sixx's flip does not clear any other scum from having a fakeclaim.

Oh my bad then.

NOW Parama is scum but not with Six but knows that the other faction is cop-scum who unlike Parama's faction doesnt have fakeclaims. Really your choice is one of three here

1) Sixx had a fakeclaim but didnt use it and Parama didnt bus him for it
2) Scum have no fakeclaims and Parama is scum who said they do
3) One scum faction has safeclaims and knows the flavor of the other faction and one scum faction doesnt have fakeclaims

All three of these make no sense

[LlamaFluff]

Because really, for this to be true you need to assume that Parama KNOWS that Six is going to be caught by flavor but opts to defend him.

Wrong. I think Parama didn't notice it as a modkillable offense, I think he realized I had uncovered a lynchable offense and quickly stepped in to try and dismiss it.

That doesnt respond to my point really. Parama if cop scum would realize that Six claimed confirmed scum. Again, why does he DEFEND that? Not only defend it but say "He has a cop car - lets go somewhere else!"

Just to check - You are saying that Parama knows Six just scumclaimed, will be lynched at the latest the point where first cop scum flips, and starts defending him for that fact instead of continuing his over aggressive play and hard bussing him?

NOW Parama is scum but not with Six but knows that the other faction is cop-scum who unlike Parama's faction doesnt have fakeclaims. Really your choice is one of three here

1) Sixx had a fakeclaim but didnt use it and Parama didnt bus him for it
2) Scum have no fakeclaims and Parama is scum who said they do
3) One scum faction has safeclaims and knows the flavor of the other faction and one scum faction doesnt have fakeclaims

or,

4) Parama has a different position in the NYPD faction that does have a fakeclaim.

Nope.

Again - your challenge for me if you want to persue this path: Show me a game where scum do not have any form of safeclaim when claiming their real role will get them lynched.

I have seen ONE mod ever screw this up ever and that was them not giving a wierd win-condition third party any fakeclaim. Again, I really doubt SC breaks rank of what he has done for the last four years to suddenly make a poorly designed game.

So which one is it?

1) Six didnt use a fakeclaim and Parama decided to defend confirmed scum
2) SC didnt provide fakeclaims, Parama as scum said they do have fakeclaims
3) SC only gave safeclaims to Paramas faction but not Six's when cops are shown to be scum
4) SC only gave fakeclaims to some scum when the entire faction is scum by flavor

[LlamaFluff]

Parama if cop scum would realize that Six claimed confirmed scum.

I'm saying Parama is NYPD scum. That doesn't necessarily make his role "cop".

Wait - your entire point is that Parama slipped that cops are a faction. Now the cop faction isnt all cops?

Just to check - You are saying that Parama knows Six just scumclaimed, will be lynched at the latest the point where first cop scum flips, and starts defending him for that fact instead of continuing his over aggressive play and hard bussing him?

I'm saying I asked a question of Sixx. Parama aggressively came in and answered for Sixx. Parama had no idea Sixx was going to be modkilled, so he really had no reason to hard buss. There was no pressure on Sixx at the time. This was right after Ztife's soft claim and his wagon began to fizzle.

You are again dodging the point. Regardless of modkill stuff, for what you claim to be true to be true - Parama would have realized Six scumslipped and was going to be caught for it and opted to defend him. Even if there is no pressure its still a slip.

Again - your challenge for me if you want to persue this path: Show me a game where scum do not have any form of safeclaim when claiming their real role will get them lynched.

I don't need your approval, or Parama's who rudely told me to butt out about it, to pursue this or any other path I choose. Practically every game I've played in, scum didn't have fake claims given to them. In fact, I've only ever played in one they did.

And im asking for the game, because if their real claims are going to get them lynched - scum ALWAYS have fakeclaims. You say they never have in your games - are you talking about things like opens and normals? Where there is no flavor? So there is no point of a fakeclaim?

From the old LT list mod - go look at all of the recent LT games. Any where scum were bad guys they had fakeclaims.

Way to use "Parama was a jerk" for "why I wont prove my point" though.

I have seen ONE mod ever screw this up ever and that was them not giving a wierd win-condition third party any fakeclaim. Again, I really doubt SC breaks rank of what he has done for the last four years to suddenly make a poorly designed game.

So which one is it?

1) Six didnt use a fakeclaim and Parama decided to defend confirmed scum
2) SC didnt provide fakeclaims, Parama as scum said they do have fakeclaims
3) SC only gave safeclaims to Paramas faction but not Six's when cops are shown to be scum
4) SC only gave fakeclaims to some scum when the entire faction is scum by flavor

I've never played an SC game before. I explained which I thought it is, my #4 in my previous post.

Okay - but you are avoiding answering the question again. Which one is it? They all look pretty implausable to me at this point. Im assuming you are going to go for #1 though so....

Slys case is

Parama realized that Six claimed cop so he would be confirmed NYPD scum which is maybe not only cops and has fakeclaims, yet Six decided not to use one. When Six claimed Parama realized that Six was going to be caught as scum as soon as it became obvious that NYPD was scum in the game and because of this he decided to start defending Six. In the event Parama is not NYPD scum he is other scum who has fakeclaims while the flavor screwed NYPD dont.

Basically that right?

[LlamaFluff]

Well im basically done responding to Sly.

He either is town who will refuse to consider he is wrong or scum (he also isnt reading my posts since he is suggesting stuff I already brought up). Most likely scum because while he is a below average player, he isnt close to being this below average.

Basically his entire case is Parama tried to defend what was essentially a scumclaim. No matter what way he spins it, thats what it falls back to when he gave up a couple main points.

Still waiting to see a game where scum have anti-town roles and didnt get a fakeclaim though. I think he knows no such game exists but refuses to find one because it eliminates about 90% of his theories.

[LlamaFluff]

Well, I have a first aid tool box if it helps with anything.

To those who thinks that my car is lame; what is a doc suppose to drive then? A lambourgini?

Yeah...

If my role suggests anything there are no "mods" of any type (I actually didnt think you would bite on that one). Neighbors seem surprised they are cramed together, TML flavor comes from nothing to do with his car apparently...

Also a first aid tool box that you neglected to mention in a slower car that acts as an ambulance?

Vote Ztife

Also I love how Sly is using the "no safeclaim" arguement from not only a game I actually called the non-me scumteam entirely correct with the exception of Sly but also didnt need safeclaims as there was no flavor issues, kinda again proving the point that he isnt reading my posts.

If

flavor

needs there to be a fakeclaim then there

are

fakeclaims. If fakeclaims are NOT needed by flavor, they will only sometimes show up.

[LlamaFluff]

Really Ztife should be dead about now.

His doctor role in a slow car (for record mine is at least 170MPH) to "get people to the hospital fast" left out that he has a medical toolbox (so why is he taking them to the hospital) which only showed up when I act like mods give abilities should have him dead by now.

Also im going to amend my list for "to die" a little.

Peregrine dies next
Sly is scum NOT with Six (if I was going for other faction only I would lynch him first - this is by merit of him hunting specifically for one faction which is a massive scumtell in these games)
AJ and NJ are next two for scumminess
then it gets tricky
Thez is moving up the list quickly, Edo and KJ too.

So yeah, assuming I die tonight start going for the pool: PV, Sly replacement, AJ, NJ, Thez, Edo, KJ

Im guessing half if not more scum in there. TML wagon was awful too, start lynching leftovers on that wagon if there start being townflips on it.

Really though

Im a doc. My flavour is along the lines of my car being so fast it makes a good temporary ambulance.

Well, I have a first aid tool box if it helps with anything

Even the "how I protect" flavor shifted from "take to someone" (ambulance) to "I help them" (first aid 'toolbox')

Panicing scum took the bait and tried to bolster their fakeclaim

Just... must post ponies to get this one across.



lol trap worked.

Lets lynch scum now yes?

[LlamaFluff]

So thez is looking like scum with Ztife.

Thats nice.

Would love to see why he is "torn on voting ztife" when the flavor is just ripped to shreds after I baited him and is still voting me after punching a massive hole in Slys case.

[LlamaFluff]

no, not when scum knows that we will have to lynch ztife eventually
and i would rather him not protect his scumbuddies that are liable to be shot during the night

Exactly.

On page 34 about now. As an aside, Llama, I'm not sure yet what your case is, but even if you're right about Ztife you're showing all the symptoms of some seriously overzealous tunnel vision. If you're town you need to chill the fuck out and take things one flip at a time.

I busted his claim. Thats all there is to it. I read UC as town actually, but Zitfe made a shakey claim and when I baited him with flavor he tried to run with it. Town doesnt have their claim busted on flavor. Scum does.

[LlamaFluff]

I dont think town who has a PR leaves out a very critical part of their role explaining why they are a doctor until I bring up something in the way of "all town roles have something like this" when given the postings of the neighbors, thats probably false. I think he went from trying to make his fakeclaim match his car to make his fakeclaim match some physical trait and got bit for it. If he said something along the lines of "I have no mods" I would still be railing on PV

Like I said, I didnt read him as scum really. It was only post claim that I at all thought he was a good lynch and prodding at him exposed holes in the case.

[LlamaFluff]

I was more thinking along the lines of:
Zifte you'd better be on Mini tonight. If he dies your getting lynched so fast tommorrow

actually, i'm okay with this
let me take some time looking back over the game to see who else i would be good with

Are you scum? You are smarter then this.

TML actually has no role right now, if a PR died then he is important. Right now im actually kinda hoping that he gets shot at (and real doc is on him) because that would mean that current PRs get to use their stuff without death fear.

Also really? Ztife has a 0% chance of a "success" tonight. He either is getting real or fake roleblocked.

Ztife is the lynch, I honestly am getting pretty annoyed that I actually broke his claim and we are not lynching him. Its almost impossible to have a more likely scum flip than him right now.

[LlamaFluff]

Even if people are going to start playing the "oh maybe is a doc" card... he is going to help us?

Scum are not killing him outside of him being confirmed town, and no one better be dumb enough to waste an investigation on what already is next to confirmed scum. So he has to be lynched, until he is lynched, he basically is free to do whatever including things like QUICK HAMMER the first player to get put at L-1. Him being around is a massive liability, and he needs to be lynched today. If he is town, he is never going to get a successful protect off. If he is scum (he is) we are leaving confirmed scum who might have a dangerous PR (who says he is scum doc?) alive to mess with us and be able to put a damper on other play.

He is getting lynched. Thats it.

[LlamaFluff]

Ok. Llama. Have it your way (tm).

The moment Ztife flips town, your ass is in the noose.

I want everyone to heed these words if they go through with this and Ztife turns up town.

What if he is scum? You are going to self-vote or something in that case?

Nothing about his claim makes sense. Nothing about letting him LIVE make sense. His car is a doctor because its fast? Nah mines faster. He has a "medical toolbox" in the car that is a pseudo-ambulance? Nah.

You say your flavor isnt the strongest on neighbors, but it conflicts with itself?

[LlamaFluff]

Your comment about not knowing much about Darth.

If your flavor IS strong that should be all the more reason to lynch the slow driving ambulance with a medical toolbox.

[LlamaFluff]

The mod made it noticeable in my PM at least that cars aren't why Darthe and I are neighbors. He made it noticeable that I didn't know Darthe's ride.

Not knowing a neighbors car in a game where we all have cars sure seemed like bad flavor connections.

Also yes - if his first attempt to claim flavor has to due with his car being fast, and my car would smoke his car, that throws a wrench in the claim. If he actually claimed an ambulance with lol-flavor it would make sense. Also I think when I make it sound like he didnt claim something important when he originally claimed scum is FAR more likely to try and make something up than for town to realize they forgot that exact thing.

[LlamaFluff]

Basically I think speed of car does not make a doctor. I would say something like "off duty ambulance driver who like to race in spare time" or "young surgeon who has a sportscar" flavor or something like that would be a doctor.

[LlamaFluff]

Llama, would you say a Ford Fiesta is not a face car?

Not stock.

Also just because im online doesnt mean im not checking other stuff and am going to go eat now.

Would love to hear the "why Ztife flavor make sense" arguement though.

[LlamaFluff]

Llama how familiar are you with drag racing and cars in general?

Moderately, probably a little more than the average person.

[LlamaFluff]

Im a doc. My flavour is along the lines of my car being so fast it makes a good temporary ambulance.

Well, I have a first aid tool box if it helps with anything.

How are these compatible? Anyone who is saying "lets not lynch him" how do these two things work together?

These are going two different directions with flavor. The first one says its due to the SPEED OF HIS CAR when at least a couple of us have claimed to have faster ones. The second one makes it sound like he pulls out a first aid kit and protects them.

@Neighbors - Explain why you are neighbors.

Also Edo can be the #2 lynch behind PV now.

@JV - Why refuse to lynch a non-VT claim? That logic scum would always claim PRs, which statistically outside of massclaim they ARE far more likely to claim. Its why you dont lynch the first VT claim 95% of the time.

[LlamaFluff]

Still waiting for anyone to explain how the doctor claim make sense when it goes two different ways from a flavor perspective.

@Boni - You do realize claiming non-VT doesnt mean they are town? We already had that happen once this game. Ive played this game enough to know when the claim doesnt work and this is by far one of those situations. Its not always a bad thing to lynch a claimed PR day one.

I mean, look at the flavor claims

Six - I have handcuffs (jailkeeper)
TML - I have been watching other drivers (Backup)
Ztife - My car is fast [which is false] (doctor??)
Ztife#2 - I have a medical toolbox

And thats only AFTER I bait him saying his claim is missing something. Who as town has ever claimed with flavor but forgotten what is the most key part of your flavor during the claim? Not only that but flavor that apparently shifts how your role is justified flavor wise?

@Zdnek - TML is claimed backup, Ztife is claimed doctor because "He has a fast car" while his is really slow compared to mine and at least one other claim and when I asked him for mods added "and has a medical toolbox". I think im getting votes a mix of predicessor defended the modkilled scum and to get a lynch/wanting Ztife lynch.

Do love how no one has ever responded to calling for explaination of flavor yet though. Because it makes zero sense.

[LlamaFluff]

See. Neighbors because of bffs or something that wanted racing carrers, backup because they are watching other drivers, jailer due to being a cop.... doctor due to having a Prelude...

One of these things is not like the other.

[LlamaFluff]

So... you arent explaining how fast car has anything to do with being a doctor.

What, you drive them away and then pull out your first aid kit which you by some miracle know how to use and then drive them back or something?

Also one thing ive been thinking... I actually think there is a good chance you are scum because you are claiming a first aid kit... im not sure we would have THAT kind of doctor in this game. I mean, scum so far are "cops" and those arent usually in the "kill street racers" trade.

[LlamaFluff]

What's the difference?

Toolbox sound forced car-like.

How do you save people? That much should be in your role and you havent answered it yet.

[LlamaFluff]

OOoh lovely Albus. Any particular reason or...

This very post, for starters.

Unvote; Vote: JacobSavage

I'd like to hear a summation of why you think he's scum too.Nothing too fancy, just maybe a few sentences and maybe some quotes. Not a fan of this post (yours, not JS's).

Actually AD is completely right. JS is really scummy and that post is something alone I wouldnt have much of an issue voting him for. If Ztife wasnt confirmed scum already I actually might be voting him for it.

[LlamaFluff]

Of course, Ztife's lynch can be supported in greater numbers with more alacrity if Ztife's not protecting the right individual(s) becomes an assumption.

So you can acurately tell if he was blocked, was the one who stopped a kill, etc?

Im pretty sure you cant. There is zero way ztife is going to make it without being lynched a few days, and when he is almost confirmed scum, letting scum who could have a dangerous PR live just sounds like a bad thing.

Still waiting to hear why a med-toolbox saves against cops, or how he protect players