League of Legends Mafia (Game Over!)

[Cephrir]

Hi. I probably am going to read the entire thread, but it would be nice if I had a role PM first.

[Cephrir]

I'm fairly busy tonight but not at all tomorrow, so expect a post then. Though I may do updates as I move through the thread, in which case I may produce something today.

[Cephrir]

Up to page 20. I started glazing over and taking less notes on later pages so I took a bit of a break.

Where does it say that Blue is Town and Red is Scum? I am think that Red and Blue might be two different Town Teams and Mafia could possibly be Jungle since it said 'Ganks"?

This is plainly a townslip if anything and anyone saying the opposite is scummy. Running tally: Reck, dex, kthx, TBG, Kise, Andrius, CF Riot (who gets a pass for reasons I'll discuss).

Idk why everyone thinks town having a lot of ults will win the game. Like, I'm sure us having ults is better than not, but I feel like people are way more concerned with night play than day play and I've always thought day play is what wins town games.

FoS PoPP: The third point he gives against Venmar is silly.

Vote: Kdowns

Took a shot wifoming town and it backfired. Sorry bro.

This is a better argument against kdowns. I don't agree with it, but the fake-townslip perspective is a vastly better argument than the possibility that it could be a scumslip. A lot of players, myself included, don't acrefully read their win conditions and if anything confusing Red and Purple is an indication of not being Purple.

FoS

@ kdowns Your reaction does not equal 3 votes. L-9??? Why are you soooo concerned, why is this pressure? Do you have anything else to say beyond this small blip of opening post and subsequent votes?

This is a ridiculous point, but one that others will later parrot. Trying hard (the trying is mostly done in other posts) to make it sound like kdowns is reacting strongly when he isn't. Brandi agrees right after this... I don't get it, he seems calm enough to me...

Town vibes from dramonic and xRECKONERx, scum vibes from Bitmap. Not convinced of ActionDan-town right now.

d3x #35: This is pretty much what I'm thinking; I'm very skeptical of the no lynch strategy right now. I like the idea of everyone tower hugging at night, but I'm completely lost as to why we would no lynch on top of it.

ActionDan #46: Without risk? The scum are gaining experience as well.

To be honest, I'm liking this no lynch wagon less and less. The speed that it sprung up with little discussion is really off-putting.

IPie #50 is giving town vibes.

I don't really see CF Riot #61's issue with Venmar.

Too much speculating here in general. Trying to guess roles on day one without information isn't useful. This outguessing-the-mod thing is also never going to get anywhere. Everyone tower hugging N1 makes sense, but I still don't see the reason why we would no lynch on top of it. I don't see how having more information when we get our ultimates is a bad thing, even if it results in a mislynch.

Andrius #65: Town vibes here

Brandi #86: ... what

pieceofpecanpie #123: What makes Venmar's speculation more problematic than everyone else's speculation? The third post you quoted was obviously a joke.

Venmar #144: Brandi town? I'm leaning the opposite way, actually.

kdowns #149: How is it ironic? Say something more concrete in response to the pressure or about something else. That said, I'm not convinced kdowns is scum from that 'slip'. The fact that he mentioned blue and red sides doesn't scream scum at me by itself.

Panzerjager #158: oh my god wow

VOTE: Panzerjager

:badposting:
Not so much the Panzer part although I don't think the vote is justified. Starts out by mentioning some really arbitrary players. "Obviously a joke", suspecting Brandi, and overall scummy vibes here.

A ton of words
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
VOTE: Reckoner. He's on the kdowns wagon and has been pushing the no lynch/tower hug strat, the two least townie things happening in the game right now.

The words were pretty good words, town mindset, but bad vote.
Venmar's reaction to this post sucks- lazy scum?

V/LA until Monday

Ugh

UNVOTE: Panzerjager

VOTE: Brandi

I'll let Panzer go for right now until his V/LA is over. There's other targets I'd like to pressure at the moment anyway.

Scummy for suspecting Brandi (I think she's already obvtown at this point, I don't remember for sure, but def not suspicious), and for a garbage reason for unvoting.

Given his use of "red team", I'd hazard a guess that he's not a member of the purple team, which either makes him a) a hidden third party or b) town who didn't read his role PM or the OP properly. My experience of kdowns leads me to conclusion b.

I have no experience with kdowns, but knowing we're all supposed to be at least semi-experienced with LoL as the source material and having "Blue Team" written out in the role PMs I expect him (as town) to assume the scumteam is purple. I assumed as much before role PMs were even sent, so him failing to read the OP doesn't sound like the best excuse. So people with experience with kdowns, is it beyond him as a player to do this intentionally as scum trying to gain townpoints for "not knowing" the scumteam is purple? That is how I interpreted the post from the beginning.

As of now, scum: kdowns>Brandi>Venmar>VoidedMafia.

Brandi is being unnecessarily confrontational. My disclaimer for my VM read is I don't like VM so I probably want him to be scum.

Very much a town frame of mind in this post even though your suspects are wrong.

That's pretty weak CF. Everyone knows Poppy is the queen of towerdiving, if anyone would have that as an ult, it would be her. It's not too crazy of an idea.

popp I was never confused at kdowns reactions, but I did in fact poke at him for his reactions. There are reasons to poke an innocent target if it causes scum to take it as a reason to jump on.

That's a really really convoluted explanation.

You know, I can boil that down to a much more obvious one: you exacerbate kdowns' reactions enticing others to jump on it, but you stay off the wagon so you in turn can both feign innocence in case of a mislynch and/or sit back and call those on it scummy.

So if I take you're explanation to be the truth then you've just found the perfect out if a kdowns lynch turns out to be a mislynch: "

Sure I poked at him for his reactions, but that was only to lure scum out"

This makes no sense because A. How do you know kdowns is an innocent target, and if you do how does poking him help you root out scum from town on his wagon? and B. If kdowns flips scum you don't look poke-y at all, you instead look like a scumbuddy caught between a rock and a hard place (ie. not on his wagon, but seemingly endorsing it).

And your second issue, those two things are not mutually exclusive. They are scummy for being on the wagon as well as other things.

Ah I see, let's find your "other" things.

I made posts earlier that implied suspicion of CF Riot [...]

You mean this?

That's pretty weak CF. Everyone knows Poppy is the queen of towerdiving, if anyone would have that as an ult, it would be her. It's not too crazy of an idea.

That's implied suspicion??? How is that linked to his alignment whatsoever? There's a subjective speculation debate going on there, the only thing that weakly appears as "earlier implied suspicion" is the statement

"That's pretty weak CF."

But the fluff that follows this statement makes it unlikely to be so.

I said I'm not sure if kthx, just a bad feeling about the way he posts. I'm not entirely certain of him though because what Im thinking could just be null.

Well you've certainly blown me away with your "other things" on these two players.

But there has been a consistent way that certain players react to my townplay D1 that generally ends up in them being scum. All of my reads on people are based on never played with them before. (Except Reck)

I've never played with you before. I've never seen your "townplay". But as a general rule of thumb, people do not refer to their play in an ongoing game as "townplay" when trying to justify why other players are scummy and they are not.

Let's see, you've "poked" at kdowns for "scumhunting" purposes, which has resulted in you catching at least two scummy players. And they are scummy for no compelling reasons, apart from being on a wagon that you've had a little go at exacerbating. This is all town play, mind you. Well... That does not compute.

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Brandi

The claim that Brandi was trying to get others on the kdowns wagon without being on it herself is kind of silly. And if she wanted a wagon on kdowns to succeed, why would she turn around and suspect the wagoners? Point about the choice of the word "townplay" is stupid as well. I will concede, however, that Brandi 205 is kind of dodgy and I can see suspecting her somewhat, but the 2nd paragraph and 2nd last paragraph of this post strike me as painfully fabricated-sounding.

Wouldn't Ockham's Razor support kdowns is Scum in that the easiest answer is that he doesn't have the Town WinCon?

Do you literally ever do anything except pop in every 5 pages to remind us you still think kdowns is scum? Useless.

Sure, but who would I convince? You? No because you don't understand logic. It would be a waste of time going back and forth with quote stripes.

Oh I'm sorry, I was just trying to make a few logical points and rationalise how they made you scummy. I didn't realise this game was about making bitchy statements and clawing at each others eyes.

I'll pick out one tidbit for you:

You quoted my response to CF but didn't look at his post in comparison. His vote was terrible. His reasons were terrible and scummy. What you did is called a strawman.

Why was his vote terrible? Why were his reasons terrible and scummy? Oh and stop trying to educate me, first Ockham's razor now strawmanning? You're digging a hole. It's got nothing to do with strawmanning. I

had

to take that quote of yours because you directed me to it when you said

"I made posts earlier that implied suspicion of CF Riot [...]

and I pulled it apart in it's entirety (ie. NOT strawmanning). Your defence equates to

"But CF is scum [therefore] I'm town"

, which is not something I'm prepared to blindly accept.

Secondly, I most certainly CAN base my reads off of how people react to my townplay. Just because others may not know my alignment doesn't mean I don't know my own. Of course I'm going to base things on how they react to me.

Actually, in this case your plan was to base things on how people react to kdowns. Not how they react to you. Again, saying you're town because you're town because you're town doesn't work.

Scum always like to hop all over the things I say, tunnel me hard, and end up being scum, because they think that they can get me lynched or that I'm an easy target. (Oddly enough I never get mislynched, though I have been left alive by scum until end game to lose) I'm not afraid of votes or pressure, and even if I were to be lynched somehow it would make the scum that much more obvious.

Geez, I'd better stop hopping all over what you're saying and deny my better instincts, because clearly I'd be scum for doing so.

Please stop going after an obvtownie literally for towntelling. Brandi could not sound any more like emotown.

...plus having a very bad read on me (usually indicative of reckscum)...

Scum really don't have reads...care to explain this thought?

Also, Brandi is completely purple. Called it early and the ugly elephant keeps piling on posts full of reasons she's anti-blue.

Then again, so is kdowns. Who to lynch first, who to lynch first......

Also, popp is blue team too. yay!

Literally the total opposite of my reads stop being grade A 100% wrong

@PoPP: Okay, sorry then. I feel like the only way for you to understand how my mind works is to have played with me before. It feels pretty anti-town to argue back and forth on points neither party will agree with while simultaneously clogging up pages with a bunch of eyesores that will only help scum to hide out and be ignored. I don't want to argue with you because I think you'r town, and townvstown arguments that take up a lot of space are just REALLY bad.

The idea that walls of text are antitown could not be more wrong. The more words a person says the more information we have and the more easily we can judge them. But thinking this is not scummy and yall are scummy for thinking so (popp, ipie).

Somewhere between this post and the next one I wrote down "esurio is both right as fuck and town as fuck".

What the hell, guys. I was gone for TWO HOURS and suddenly there's 5 more pages to read.

I've skimmed up to page 12 or so, but I'm more firm on my choice of Brandi-scum today. I'll get something up when I'm not in class, since I don't know when I'll be leaving here for the day. Panzer can wait until tomorrow, definitely.

Not a direct response just to this post but this prompted the following thought: I know I shouldn't suspect every single person who wants to vote Brandi but god you are all doing it in such terrible ways.

sigh...Brandi, stop posting for awhile. Whenever I read your posts all I read is "I'm scum, I'm scum, I'm scum, I'm scum, I'm scum, I'm scum"

What do you think of kdowns coming in, posting, getting heat for it and then disappearing? Specifically the disappearing part.

I think that it's barely been a day since kdowns last posted and the thread has just been moving fast by people who have free time (like mysself)

also just curious if you think Im scum scum scum why are you asking me stop being scummy? Do you not like scum being obvious scum? what is your objective here? That stance feels pretty anti-town to me.

I disagree with just writing it off as it being a busy thread. I've see far too often that when scum come under such heat so quickly, they tend to /logout and just ignore the thread for awhile. Thus my vote is still on kdowns.

As for asking you to stop posting, I mainly want you to stfu for a little bit so half the players who haven't posted anything to reads on will feel like they can post. Look at your activity post and tell me you don't think we would all benefit from you unplugging your keyboard.

kdowns disappearing is actually interesting and is the first remotely scummy thing he's done. But anyway this post is more reasonable than kthx's other posts, I don't mind him as much when he's at least thinking a little rather than overridden by some sort of id monster screaming "KDOWNS IS SCUM AND EVERYONE NOT VOTING HIM IS DUMB!!!11"

Giant walls of text are more distarcting and detrimental to the town than quote stripes.

Really? I find giant walls of text a lot easier to ignore. Quote stripes tend to break up text into really small chunks which compels me to read them.
---

Getting decent town reads on Kise and Kthxbye right now for today's posts. Scum reads on Brandi and Panzerjager.
Dramonic is a light scum read for basically tunnelling on anti-TH and Brandi-town without providing anything else so far.
Venmar is giving me a light town vibe.
VoidedMafia has town vibes. Primarily gut.
TehBrawlGuy is probably town.
A lot of others are virtually null, primarily because of either fluff or lack of anything posted.
This game is just hard to read because of all these random tangents that aren't leading anywhere.

I'd especially like to see more from kdowns, Venmar, ActionDan, dramonic, d3x, and a few others.

PEdit: @popp: esuriospiritus is a she.

Also, that was the first post you made since #200 that didn't fall under one of these categories:
1. Arguing with Brandi or focusing on her in general
2. Arguing with esuriospiritus about random crap (kdowns, her vote, ???), although I guess technically it would fall here after all.
3. Fluff

By my count, that's 21 posts. We get now that you think Brandi is scum. What are you going to achieve by continuing on this same train of thought until everyone falls asleep listening to it? Other things have happened in the past 150 pages. I want to know what your thoughts on them are. It would be infinitely better than whatever fight you're having with esurio that isn't going anywhere. A read on her would be a good start, since I don't recall seeing one.

Claims to have a "scum read on Panzer" after the aforementioned's like literally one post. You do a lot of jumping to big conclusions based on a little data, I don't think I would ever want to lynch someone exclusively for one post unless it was a lot worse than the infamous nolynch post.

Oh yeah
The only one I agree with as being scummy is Kise from Pie's list, only because Kise NoLynched and didn't say anything else.
esurio hasn't posted yet and do not pursue reck at this point. I like what I see atm.

I should clog up the thread after a solid plan has been presented? I didn't see any flaws other than "maybe the mod has a monkey wrench in place!"

So I'll read the 10 pages or whatever it is when I catch up and let's see how much of it is useful. Starting the clock at 8:15 pm EST

look at that, 2 ninjas already I BET THIS IS A SPAMMY GAME

This was actually a pretty interesting catch up. Not much else I want to quote but it gave some good reads.

GIANT WALLS OF TEXT WITH TOWN ARGUING BACK AND FORTH ABOUT NULL POINTS THAT NO ONE IS GOING TO AGREE WITH HURTS THE TOWN AND DOESN'T HELP ANYONE AT ALL EVER.

Gonna say here that I find you and popp town, and kind of drifted away from reading the walls. Sorry popp, just don't think you're onto anything against Brandi, and your rebuttal didn't show any definitely inconsistency with her. I admit I had to read her posts again to be sure she wasn't scumfucking up.

it takes me longer to comprehend Image

..
Toaster?

disclaimer: I am usually bad at reading esurio surprisingly

Gimme head til I'm dead

wait for an apology.

Hm?

unvote; vote Kdowns

Got Kd and esu as scum. I'm also looking at KTB, Andy and Panz with weak scumreadings - I'd rather see more from them instead of voting any of them right now. When we're done THing and blowing our ults, I think attacking (if not lynching) the lurkers is a sound strat, but ofc TH or do whatever else by all means if you want to.

Kise's 341 and this post are solid entries into the game even though I heavily disagree on nearly every single thing.

Roughly translated CF Riot: kdowns is likely scum and part of a "red team", because if he didn't have this knowledge he would've done what most LoL players would do and assuming that the team opposing blue is purple.

Not what I'm saying. I have no reason to believe there is more than 1 scumteam this game. I also strongly believe the actual scumteam is purple. What I was trying to say about kdowns is he (as purple scum) could have made the post referencing a red team

knowing the scumteam was purple

in an attempt to fake a townslip, which is to say he was trying to gain towncred by saying something scum would know is false.

color-blind mode?

Colorblind mode

I don't feel this adequately excuses his statement. I understand in this mode the health bars above creeps and such change colors, however the creeps themselves, towers, and nexus are all still blue and purple. Plus the role PM doesn't say "green team", AND we can't forget kdowns didn't just imply a red team, he was suggesting a possible second town team or 3rd party and a scumteam consisting of junglers or jungle creeps. So at worst, I feel he's trying to plant misinformation and deceptively gain towncred, but even at best he's posting useless setup spec which, unlike the towerhugging discussion, is unprovoked at this point in the game.

No I suggested that there are people on the Kdowns wagon that are likely scum and that it's probably within the two people that I listed, I never specifically stated that it as because of the wagon they were scummy.
However, anyone being on the wagon is slightly scummy by default, regardless of their reasons, because there is no legitimate reason to be on it.

This is some tongue-tied, scum fumbling if I've ever seen it.

His vote was terrible. His reasons were terrible and scummy.

Let's go, Brandi. Make a case on me bby. It may have been implied but humor me because I don't know which vote this post is referencing. And I'm sure you've got more than this to throw at me.

Right now I doubt Brandi is scum. Call it gut.

If I'm wrong and Brandi is town, Venmar are Esu look like whiteknighting scum. Alternatively I could also see Venmar just looking at Brandi through rose tinted glasses cause she has sort of a "popular girl" presence on this site. Despite having scumreads on both Venmar and Brandi independently I feel they are less likely to be scum together for this post.

I think IPie is town. I think Popp's arguments with Brandi aren't the best, but I kinda see the thought process so leaning town. KTB is one to watch, I find him hard to read as of now. Lean town on Kise, his thought process is sort of similar to mine. Dram, Reck and Anakimus are the other names I remember seeing more than once but haven't really formed an opinion on any of them.

Someone explain the Panzer votes to me. I feel like he only had 1-2 posts and I think the controversial one was him voting no-lynch. Someone tell me if there's more to it than that or why this is important.

Still a fan of the way CF is going at kdowns. Further scumpoints for everyone else who is still attacking him for reasons other than these.

It's not only the no lynch vote.

"Brandi could be the scums but i think no-lynching is better than mislynching." This reeks. It was after kdowns made his 'slip' as well, so there's enough content there to have SOMETHING to add to the game. My initial vote was basically pressure, but I decided to switch gears after he announced V/LA because I know that it would never get anywhere.

The no lynch thing had pretty much died down for a while before that (that I can see), so it really came out of left field that he would make a post like that. Speaking of which, I still don't see the sense behind no lynch in the first place.

Okay, I think I understand your thought process a bit more now. Still not much to base a vote on.

a big long wall

Nope, kdowns 138 still doesn't read as that upset. You're leagues ahead of other kdowns voters but still bad.

I think Kdowns is more likely town than scum. I've had a facepalm moment when I saw his comment, but really it sounded so out of the blue I can't pin it on to him as either townie or scummy, but if I had to say one of them I would say townie simply because i don't think scum would say that even as a gambit.

I can't really comment on everything, but I didn't consider the wagon a problem or point of interest until recently. I feel like if Kdowns is town then his wagon possesses at least 1 or 2 opportunistic scum that I don't think can pick out just yet.

I'm curious, what does everyone think of Bella? Am I the only one with some sort of scum vibes coming from this slot?

"Hey enough about me everyone look at random lurker I'm pulling out of thin air!"

(the assertion that voting isn't important for xyz reasons)

If you have 3 suspects Y U NO VOTE
You give a reason but it sucks, voting is protown because it allows for easier lategame analysis and it is not the case that people only care about a given player's vote if it doesn't move much. I dunno about you but I feel more pressured based mostly on the number of votes I have rather than the "strength" of said votes. Though I do tend to care less if the votes are from players I've written off as morons.

Where does it say that Blue is Town and Red is Scum? I am think that Red and Blue might be two different Town Teams and Mafia could possibly be Jungle since it said 'Ganks"?

Sorry, even with confusing purple with red, it explicitly states that blue teams win condition is when purple (red) team is eliminated. No way you can confuse that with meaning purple could be another town team.

@Kthnx
Assuming that you've been playing the game long enough in colorblind to assume the teams are REDvBLUE it would make sense that he would automatically assume purple=3rd party. Since the only other team in League that would make sense are neutral monsters I can see where his misconceptions lye (lie?).
Yes, this has to assume that he didn't properly read the OP and his role PM but I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt with things that I can admit that I've done.
It was entirely possible for the game to not be run 100% like you would expect it. It IS a mafia game. It's just taking the theme of League of Legends. That doesn't mean it's not going run like a normal mafia game. Do you see what I'm getting at here? YES Kdowns was an idiot, but he had every right to ask questions about the setup. There's no tell there. Get over it.

Wrong wrong so very wrong.

If you switched to color blind mode on your first game of LoL ever, that would have absolutely zero to do with fucking up a blue team role PM. Period.

blah blah blah,

member of blue team

**
blah blah

Purple team eliminated

^You literally can't fuck that up if you are on the blue team. There is zero room for thinking anything other than that in this game, even though its mafia scum, purple is the enemy of blue and thus purple is the scum team. None, what-so-ever. That is the only conclusion and that's not even taking into account this specific themed game rules!

No way that he has a blue team WINCON. If he isn't purple team, he certainly isn't blue thus he needs to die.

That's not even the whole case on him either. 3 people pick up on this and he freaks out. Then, most recently, we get the super OMGUSy post:

KTB, you're really are try hard scum aren't you?

I MAKE IDIOTIC MISTAKES ALL THE DAMN TIME.

There is zero town perspective coming from any of his posts.

Giving him the benefit of the doubt as a blue team member is stupid at best...your continual defense of him is noted.

This is some damn hard pushing over what basically amounts to nothing. Applies to some posts nearby 438 as well. Calm down and talk about something else FFS. Though Zepher leading the kthx wagon does earn him some points, I have to admit there's a good chance I'd be on it at this point. At this point hypothetical Day 1 Ceph is voting for popp, Ank or kthx. Strongest town reads on esurio, Brandi, CF Riot.

[Cephrir]

If these votes on kdowns' replacement turn out to be largely based on post 102 I will be very cross with you.

[Cephrir]

Personally, I almost always read every word, and don't agree that they're generally filled with padding. But if you think they are mostly filler, guess what, scumtell.

[Cephrir]

Pages 21-40

1) Because I have not yet seen anyone but kdowns react to a wagon on them.

It's not limited to who's BEING voted. We can read Panz via his voting pattern.

FUD = Fear, Uncertainy, Doubt. He's spreading paranoia and worry, essentially.

I was answering esu's question to argue my point about Venmar. Shut the fuck up with this.

So, would you be in line with a plan of "TH all game, only come out to ult or use other strong abilities."? Do you think we would stop all ganks if we all THed all game?

We can only ult once. Once you hit level 5 and bust that nut, you only have the other actions. There's no need to TH for the sake of leveling up at that point. Survival needs to be considered.


I'm fine with KTB & Pan wagons. Multi-way bus on D1 is not out of the question (Gay Mafia II).

1) Panz's stances are what's concerning about him, his votes are merely indicators of them. You claim to be able to read me just fine, as seen by your vote on me. Your point is?

2) There are literally a thousand other ways you could have said that. My first impression was that Ven made an off-the-cuff remark and it was nothing to be concerned with. Someone with no outside knowledge would

never

have posted

"I'm not concerned with Ven thinking about TPs, because maybe the mods are trying to hide the possibility of them existing with how they worded our wincon."

; they would have said something more like

"I'm not concerned with Ven thinking about TPs, since the way our PMs are worded doesn't rule them out"

. The difference is that the former is either coming from the mindset of someone who

knows

there are TPs, or someone who intends to FUD up the town with TP scares, as you continue to do.

Those two sentences read exactly the same to me. This line of questioning is a bit scummy for both TBG and Kise, one of them really needed to say "shut up I'm done let's move on" sooner. TBG is worse though because his argument sucks.

FTR, my vote isn't moving from kdowns today.

Antitown.

no reason just kthx feels townie

Please continue to regale me with your refreshing perspective and insightful contributions

Zepher I haven't been absent, I just haven't been posting 24/7 as before. My incessant posting was anti-town and I don't want to clog up the thread needlessly. I've said what I needed to say and I'm voting for who I need to vote for.

My thoughts are that while Kthx isn't the towniest of players, Panzer is infinitely more scummy and I'd even bet that if Panzer is scum kth is more than likely town.

Posting is never anti-town D:

Hush, I like it just fine for now.

I don't think the one getting wagoned is allowed to talk about his wagon like this...

Why not? Someone has to die, as long as I'm not quick hammered I'm fine with it. Just needs a few more votes....

Why would any alignment ever say this... it literally sounds like you're excited to be lynched. Guilty conscience or fed up with the game?

UNVOTE: Brandi
VOTE: Panzerjager

This guy is scum. Guaranteed. Put him and me into a double iso and look at #470. His Kthx vote is really bad. I have a really hard time believing that after being gone for a lot of the game, he would both have valid suspicion on Kthx as well as not understand why I find him scummy as shit after I explained it twice. The second post was a short and basic summary, but my point stands. The vote is only worse by the fact that 4 of the 5 votes before his own were within 15 posts before his own.

Sorry for not keeping my promise on putting thoughts out on Kthxbye yesterday. I'm lazy and easily distracted.

This is somewhat accurate. Panzer's hop onto kthx did not look very good.

Z: Don't bother arguing any of the points I've made against your case. Not going to clog up the thread trying to make the blind see something they don't want to see and have to swallow pride long enough to admit they are wrong. Do however address my question about your p550 and how it's not completely coaching Panz.

"I can't hear you lalalalala"
Knowing Zepher is scum this becomes kind of interesting. It sounds like he doesn't want to get into a prolonged argument, but I'd think he *would* want to if they were scumbuddies. As I write this up with knowledge of the coming pages, kthx's interactions with Zepher are pretty much his only redeeming quality at this point.

unvote

some questions for the class:

out of kthx, kdowns, and panzer: who is most likely to be scum?
does anyone think it's possible all three are scum? two? is anyone certain only one can be scum?
does anyone have buddies for any of the three (and reasons why)?
is there another player who's been heavily focused that should be added to this list? was going to add brandi but I might be biased

Thinking about pairings on day 1 is pointless and distracting. You're useless.

Ank
He knows how to play this game.

@pie
As far as buddies go CF is scum in Kthnx flips scum. Associative tells based on Kthnx pretty much ignoring CF while CF has been drawing a lot of his own opinions from Kthnx.
I could go more into detail and bringing up specific posts but I'm not going to pursue it until either one of them flips. It's a waste of time otherwise.
Idk about Panzer. Hasn't said much so there's no real way to discern associations.

Why the sudden change in play?

Where is d3x?

Would Zepherscum end this post the way he does if d3x is his scumbuddy? Well, on the yes side, he's likely to notice if his scumbuddy isn't around, but on the no side, he probably wouldn't then post it if so. I say this earns d3x some town points.

...nevermind, I'm not on my phone anymore and can read isos >_>

I'd like to point out for the class in

BIG FUCKING BOLD LETTERS

that kthxbye has

LITERALLY CALLED EVERY OTHER POTENTIAL WAGON THAT ISN'T HIM SCUM.

Every single one. This is as recently as post 558, a mere two iso-posts ago.

Kthxbye just wants to see someone, anyone die that isn't him. Can we kill it with fire yet?

This.

Kise, You're wrong. I waited for something I can actually nail him for. Trying to call me scum because my wagon never took off? That's Horseshit, and you know it.

Also, I never gave up on the game. I was just really busy which I did state in my last response to KTB which was about my response to you. Kinda like this 2 on 1 action here.

This isn't a good mindset. Slowrolling your suspicions in order to wait until your point is more poignant is scummy. Town post what they're thinking when they're thinking it.

Alrighty, time for some analysis. Enjoy.

Kdowns:

Spoiler:

p102

, regardless of all the 'kdowns is dumb' defense posts (including his own), does not come from someone on the blue team. It just doesn't.

p106

and p 138, the 'I'm dumb defense'

p149

, "As I stated, I read everything"...no way this is true when posting p102. I don't care how dumb you are. "I am honestly on the blue team" <---this is all you have to do to not get wagoned... and finally he ends with an over reaction to a few votes.

p435

, after being under heat for suspicion of not being on the blue team he still comes up with "So I immediately think in Purple vs Red when talking about the game."? Seriously? That's as freudian slip as it gets.

p440

, Now this is important so pay attention...in this post he calls me scum, but alas, there is no wagon on me only a single vote from MrIdiot (err Z). kdowns is obviously smarter than you guys give him credit for as voting me here at this juncture looks like OMGUS which I'm betting he's fully aware of.
....wait for it....(I know I did)

Even when you ignored Dram's Post about PMs usually having the Alignment at the bottom? Tough I did see that I was Blue,

I instantly thought it was Blue vs Red

because of the fact I play on Colorblind mode in actual league.

VOTE: KTB

'yay, ktb has a wagon I can join and not look scummy for doing so!!' Now we also have more inconsistencies with his story as well (as seen in bold). You instantly thought blue vs red, saw you were on the blue team, think red team is another town team....OMFG REALLY FOLKS?! ARE THE MAJORITY OF YOU TOO DENSE TO NOT SEE THIS?
It's either that or the biggest defenders of his dumbness know he's town and are using it to get a different mislynch on someone attacking him for it. Probably the former, but if I get lynched, remember this post and look at it after you lynch kdowns in the event he actually somehow flips blue.

Bub:

Spoiler:

First off, welcome to the scum list for your slip...

Gee, I wonder if there's

somebody else we can mislynch

other than my scumbud kthx?

I'm betting those are my wagon aren't going to agree with me here (surprise), but that's a slip if I ever saw one. Which makes Pie probably town.
This made me dig deeper and I found some gems.

p445

, "Scum would know who their partners and be able to determine that Purple = Scum from their role PM alone." First off, the reverse logic works as well as in if he was blue, we would be able to determine that purple = scum from his role PM. Secondly, this reads as you having a purple team PM. I say this because I have no idea what a purple team role PM would look like but you seem to have a certainty about how much more obvious it would be to kdowns if he had one. If your scum, this lessens my read on kdowns.

p448

, is anti-town. More planting the seed in town minds that some of us shouldn't TH N1. "Having an open plan allows the scum to gameplan around it, but it's hard for them to determine a course of action if they have no idea what the town's doing at night." Town all TH'ing only changes one thing for scum and their planning and that is their collective gank won't work as TH'ing prevents it. It states in the rules that the gank is a collective scum action meaning they all do w/e night actions allowed by their abilities ON TOP OF submitting a purple team gank.

p454

, and finally, nothing in this post is original thought. You took others thoughts and re-worded them to jump onto my wagon. Alone not uber scummy, but combined with you body of works adds to your scumminess.

Panz:

Spoiler:

p158

, 'no lynch is the right call'

p470

, (after v/la) votes me cuz he 'can dig it'. Also, this post makes me wonder if any town members have a passive. It's been brought up twice and I know I don't have a passive...doubt the game could be broken like that though.

p473

, actually a fluff post (note MrZ, this is what fluff looks like)

p548

, W...T...F. First off, claiming does absolutely nothing in this set-up. Far as I can tell, everyone is a champion from LoL. Hell, even Panz brings this up in p470. Also, he starts to think me and Brandi going at it was a distancing shenanigan....I don't remember even having interaction with her for a long time at this point. Where does that even come from? We also get a little 'I'm dumb at MS' and 'I'm never scum' posting in this one. Hey, you guys remember in p473 where he said he wishes he could be like kdowns and claim being bad and everyone will leave him alone? Doesn't it look like that's EXACTLY what he's trying to pull in this post?

p552

, "Cases are scummy,i did contribute. I vote scum." WTF does this even mean? The cases on me are scummy or building cases in general are scummy (thus why you don't like to do them)? Admits he doesn't want to make points about why he's voting as he doesn't want to have to argue them! Come the fuck on people!
^Doing this block of analysis has made me have to re-negotiate my earlier comment of not moving my vote from kdowns. VOTE: Panz

MrZ:
Although wrong about me, I have a town read on him. p577 specifically doesn't come from scum as I don't see him making a point about CF being scum if I'm scum if he knew that I'd flip town. Not going to spend a lot of time here.

d3x:
This is his town play. Logical. All points that have been made are agreeing with strategy that is best for town and worst for scum. As town in a large game, he isn't very active in D1's.

esurios:

Spoiler:

This chick pisses me off. READ THIS ESURIOS:

YOU ARE NOT THE GOD OF MS

. I don't know who told you otherwise, but they were wrong.
Anyway, I didn't get any scum vibes off her posts until recently. First off, the jump to my wagon was just awful. reasoning? "this works too"

p582

, calls out my post as WIFOM, which I have to admit, reading it it is pretty much based on WIFOM. No issues there. To answer your question, I'll get to it. Short answer, much lower on the scum totem pole but don't know if that has to do with a far lower activity level.

p583

, this one is just full of dumb. I've been calling them scum even BEFORE I HAD A WAGON. The whole point you are trying to make would make sense if I haven't been calling Panz and kdowns scum from the start of their posting. Alas, that just isn't the case. Guess if you hadn't have been posting from your phone, you'd have been able to know that.
I have a question for you though. Looking back at you, how is it you completely dropped your Venmar suspicions to join mine, first without any reasoning for doing so and then start trying to justify keeping your vote here after the fact? What do you think of Venmar right now?

Reck:
p591, townie Mctownerton posting at it's finest. (not sarcasm, he's town)

Kise:
Not sure why he's on my wagon except to be on the largest wagon. Can't get a good read on him. Leaning town atm. Anyone else have an opinion of Kise?

CFRiot:

p522

and

p527

, I don't like these one bit. Although I agree with the words (my wagon is baaaad), in these 2 posts, it looks like he's trying to separate himself from what looks like at this time the probable mis-lynch. He doesn't make an attempt to explain why my wagon is bad, just that it's bad. I read these as trying to run the fine line of not making comments that will make him look like he knows I'm a mis-lynch while trying to distance himself FROM the mislynch.
Also, in the ISO there are no comments on Panz poor play while sticking to kdowns poor play. Welcome to my scum list. Look here if Panz flips scum.

Brandi:
Aside from what I've already said about her...

p271

, Using vote counts to prove not scum? Not sure what to think of this, but it's, what did esurio say earlier?, a logical fallacy.

p476

, Wants to be on my wagon, but Panz looks scummier. This I actually read as more town than scum. Would have been easy for her to jump onto a mislynch instead of going after scum.
All in all, I may be leaving her in my possible scum pile because I'm stubborn. She's certainly not a lynch I'd support today anymore.

Literally every case in this post is complete garbage. Especially Kdowns and Bub.

This chick pisses me off.

Sounds like I'm doing something right. also, awfully convenient you start calling me scummy after I hop on your wagon. You sure seem to have an awful lot of scumspects for pretty tenuous reasons, which really isn't doing anything to help defend you against my earlier point that you just want someone to die that isn't you.

I don't think venmar is scum(my enough to warrant a vote). Why are you trying to deflect?

This. Esurio is still town as fuck.

I just checked, KTB was only at 4 votes at the time of this quote.

I was actually at 1.

So there we go. KD calls you scum and doesn't vote cus it wasn't a sure bus yet.

Oh please, there's no way you can actually think kdowns and kthx are mutually bussing, right? I understand that's a thing, but kthx has talked about almost nothing else since the legendary post 102.

so I actually skimmed kthx's post and the kdowns section in particular is so much of a stretch that I'm lacking a witty analogy for it

willing to proxy my vote for a witty comment, provided the vote is proxied onto kthx.

also kise stop being bad at this game

What a weak ass way to continue the push of my mislynch. Why not comment on anything else? Did I peg too many of your scumbuddies or something?

"LITERALLY EVERYONE IS SCUM" - kthxbye

^ that's not even that much of a misrep at this point

seriously

Yes you moron, people pushing for my mislynch is in fact scummy.

Not even remotely.

What makes you think Kthnx isn't scum exactly?

It has a lot to do with knowing him iRL for something like 20 years. The way he plays his Town game is always more scummy. He's a lot more brash, snarky, and aggressive. I don't think I've read/played in a game where as Town, he wasn't almost {or all the way} MisLynched. He usually runs up a really fast Wagon and Scum inevitably jump at it as it seems like an easy out. Unless he's playing countermeta {which I highly doubt}, his Scum game is much more palatable and pliable. My read on him isn't foolproof, but I don't really have any doubts atm.

I don't think kthx is being as hyperaggressive as you claim, and more importantly I don't actually care.

I think InflatablePie and Reck are townish for now. I'm going by post count.

I think Brandi is null. She's been driven up a wall really badly and reacts weirdly.

Okay, I'll be totally honest. This is a clusterfuck. I have no idea what is going on. Stop posting shitty walls of texts that have no relevance to actual scumhunting. I can't be assed to read Brandi's novel.

With that being said, I think I'll vote kthxbye. He seems kinda iffy.

VOTE: kthxbye

Please just lynch someone gaise.

Holy balls is this post the absolute worst ever. This post is deserving of the votes it gets.

@Bub and esur: First of all, of course I'm damn suspicious of every vote on my wagon. Fucking duh. Pull your heads out your asses and use some common fucking sense. Let's pretend you magically were in the lead wagon. Where would you look for scum if you were town? Oh shit, I'm betting you'd look at your wagon first.

Let's look at the facts from my perspective. I'm town, my wagon and the cases against me are shit compared to kdowns and Panz body of posts which are nowhere near coming from a town mindset. My wagon obviously has scum on it.

The case on you is leagues better than either of those cases at this point as it's the only one that isn't completely terrible. Nope nope nope nope

Secondly, very nice try at misrepping me! Seriously, commendable /golfclap. Let's look at my wagon: MrZepher, Bub Bidderskins, Dramonic, esuriospiritus, Panzerjager, Kise, kdowns (7)
Now, let's look at those I'm calling scummy for good reason (as outlined in p605): Bub Bidderskins, esuriospiritus, Panzerjager, kdowns (4) That's only 1/2 of of the pile of people on my wagon that I find most suspicious. This is the 1/2 where scum are likely hiding.
Then, I go on to show suspicion of people NOT on my wagon for good reason (also found in p605): CFRiot and to an extent Brandi

Oh shit, did I just call you out on your blantant bullshit of "So basically everybody on your wagon is scum."? Why, yes, yes I did.

Am I saying everyone I'm calling scummy is going to flip scum? No. I'm pointing out posts that look scummy in reference to my wagon and the reasons they are scummy. ZOMG, I think that's called scum hunting not "flailing".

You can see perfectly well that it's an exaggeration and pretending otherwise is scummy.

At town on my wagon, look at the posts of both myself and those who I'm calling out as scummy. Now ask yourself, which of those are actively using the information to find scum and which are blindly pushing for my mislynch (or in some cases vocally saying I'm not a good wagon but not looking for scum ON my wagon). Get with the program.

At the scum on my wagon, please, by all means, keep pushing it and misrepping me. Continue to try and ignore me as town. Continue to ignore the person who's known me 20+ years telling you that this is my town posting style. It will make things easier for town to win.

I'm reading d3x as town at this time which makes his read of me as town legit. Even if he were scum and I'm reading him horribly, is scum him going to call me town when I'm town? If he's scum, doing so would gain him at best a 1 for 1 trade (he flips scum, people think I'm his scumbuddy...I flip before him, people say he's scum who knew I was town). Why completely ignore his read of me either way?

Use your brains and lynch scum Panz today. Would also be willing to lynch kdowns or Bub.

kthxbye

As has been pointed out, this entire post basically just says "guys no I'm town".

I think InflatablePie and Reck are townish for now. I'm going by post count.

I think Brandi is null. She's been driven up a wall really badly and reacts weirdly.

Okay, I'll be totally honest. This is a clusterfuck. I have no idea what is going on. Stop posting shitty walls of texts that have no relevance to actual scumhunting. I can't be assed to read Brandi's novel.

With that being said, I think I'll vote kthxbye. He seems kinda iffy.

VOTE: kthxbye

Please just lynch someone gaise.

Bitmap, nice of you to join us.

What are your thoughts of Panz. Is he "kinda iffy" too? What about in the event I am town? Who's the likely scum on my wagon? How bout Panz's wagon? If he were to flip town, who's the likely scum on it? Also, reverse that and if either of us is scum, do you think scum are bussing at this point? If so, who?

This is a really bizarre reaction. After flipping at everyone on his wagon, someone joins it in the actual scummiest manner of all time and gets a warm welcome and pushing for some thoughts? What the actual fuck? Diescumdie and if you flip scum this is almost worth lynching Bitmap for on its own.

townasfuck:

Bella
VoidedMafia
pieceofpecanpie

town I guess:
Ankamius
d3x
MrZepher
TehBrawlGuy
kdowns
Kise

idklol:
Venmar
Bub Bidderskins
Bitmap
ActionDan
CF Riot
Dramonic

scummeh:
Panzerjager
Esuriospiritus
Andrius
Brandi
xRECKONERx
kthxbye

me:
InflatablePie

Wut

Just....wut

no reason just kthx feels townie

Helpful. Very helpful.

The old gut feeling, entirely useless to the rest of the team but often the only way to express how and why you feel about someone's alignment.

Not helpful.

I think InflatablePie and Reck are townish for now. I'm going by post count.

I think Brandi is null. She's been driven up a wall really badly and reacts weirdly.

Okay, I'll be totally honest. This is a clusterfuck. I have no idea what is going on. Stop posting shitty walls of texts that have no relevance to actual scumhunting. I can't be assed to read Brandi's novel.

With that being said, I think I'll vote kthxbye. He seems kinda iffy.

VOTE: kthxbye

Please just lynch someone gaise.

Well, this is an entirely helpful and useful post.

How is that all you have to say about this post

Okay u guys got good points.

VOTE: Panzer

Quick jump. Way to respond to kthx challenging you with about your vote for him.

Yep. I was going to express confusion as to why you wouldn't vote Bitmap for this but then, well, you did (IIRC).

Also, why bother multiquoting so many posts if your responses are going to be 80% sass and 20% content?

At this point, I'm done. Nobody is listening to me. My questions are being ignored either because those I ask them to are town who really think I'm scum or they are scum and don't want to be linked to whatever they would say today. kdowns and panz are both scum. If by some freak accident only 1 is scum (at LEAST one of them is scum, of this I am 100% sure and will eat all hats for all times if both are town), it's kdowns over panz.

There are plenty of people doing scummy shit all over the place in reference to my wagon and them blindly pushing it to the fullest. If the only way I actually get to contribute is through being dead and flipping for you people to actually look back through and see all the points I've made in light of me flipping town, so be it.

Expect me to magically disappear for awhile. Do what you will.

So it's scummy when kdowns disappears under pressure, and now you're going to do the same, deliberately and explicitly I might add, because you're mad? Die die die die die.

Guys, Panzers "I give up" attitude is completely gone now and now he's trying to shit the focus onto other potential wagons, if his tantrum is what made you think he is town well he isn't doing it anymore, and is trying to do the opposite. IT looks like his tantrum was all just an act.

This just in: If you have a tantrum you'd better keep having it continuously for the rest of the game 'cause otherwise you're scum.

It doesn't make any sense to me that Pie would play like a fucking retard if he was scum. I know that's Wifom but I know he's not that garbage of a player to just troll and think that makes him look town. In my head it seems to me like he's playing that way for a reason; like his role is similar to that of a Jester or something (where you WANT to be targeted by negative actions). That last part was a recent development in the thought process.

Vs Panzer who's trying to play but I don't see much town motivation from most of his actions.
His little tantrum just seems like an attempt to get people to froth at the mouth or just crying about his wagon instead of giving us some reason to get onto another wagon.

There are a lot of people with bad play this game. That doesn't mean any of them are necessarily scum.
Likewise it doesn't mean they're necessarily town. Good/Bad play just shows how likely you are to be lynched.

tl;dr: Pie and Panzers intentions read differently, and I don't understand the point of your last question.

Andy do you think it's possible that you've convinced yourself Panzer is town to the point where you're not able to see the other side of the argument?

Mad his scumbuddy is playing poorly?

So Andy is probably town. I suggest if Panzer is a doc, then focus on Andy.

Umm, I unvoted because I started to question the wagon on Panzer.

The more I think about it, the more I think Brandi is scum. :/

VOTE: Brandi

Brandi? Now? Not long after your Panzer hop, which you apparently unvoted from (because you were pressured about it?)? Ick.

I honestly haven't even been paying attention to Bitmap.

Guess I have to now.

Interesting.

Hey Andy how about you stop over-defending panzer so hard and making excuses for his one sentence posts when the only way you can know what's going through his head or in his role pm unless you're his scumbuddy.

Scum or town he has put 0 effort into his play, and honestly his motivations fit scum more than town.

like seriously what town PR would want to hop onto any wagon that seemed to be getting the most attention, offer to claim at 3 votes, self vote and give little to no info on their actual claim and hardcore lurk the entire game while producing no real content or even any essence of wanting to help the town at all. He literally said he wanted scum to win, and that's not someone I want alive regardless of their alignment.

You're right. I don't actually know what's going on in his head.
But that does NOT mean I'm going to sit by and let some townie die while good scumbags are out there doing NOTHING while WAITING for panzer to get lynched.

But fine. Let's do it your way. Let's just see what happens. While I will NOT vote panzer I support his lynch because MAYBE THEN, MAYBE ONCE HE'S DEAD WE CAN FINALLY START LOOKING FOR SCUM.

You sound really, really sure about this.

Kthx is now my top suspect. D1 Ceph is now 100% voting him. Bitmap is also very scummy here. Popp and Ank have dropped off the face of the earth but nothing has redeemed them thus far. I was slightly suspicious of d3x after page 20 but not as much anymore.

[Cephrir]

FoS

@ kdowns Your reaction does not equal 3 votes. L-9??? Why are you soooo concerned, why is this pressure? Do you have anything else to say beyond this small blip of opening post and subsequent votes?

This is a ridiculous point, but one that others will later parrot. Trying hard (the trying is mostly done in other posts) to make it sound like kdowns is reacting strongly when he isn't. Brandi agrees right after this... I don't get it, he seems calm enough to me...

Uhhh, I don't get how the point is ridiculous? You call it such and then back that up by saying

"Trying hard (

the trying is mostly done in other posts

) to make it sound like kdowns is reacting strongly when he isn't."

My response was not focused on the idea of trying to paint kdowns as "reacting strongly" or whether he was or wasn't sounding calm, but rather on his overblown statement of pressure coming from so few votes. I think it flows just fine when looking at his post I was addressing. Incidentally he didn't speak again until #431 (12 pages later!).

As I stated, I read everything and then I skimmed over it again to answer my question before even asking it, but I overlooked it both times.

I am honestly on the blue team, and I find it ironic that I am getting pressure on me from one stupid question.

So again, how is my post ridiculous?

First part: The trying hard was mostly done by those who were parroting you, but I still find the initial point scummy. Thanks for quoting kdowns as his statement only reinforces my point: he says "I am getting pressure on me". That is not an overblown statement, it is literally exactly what was happening.

[Cephrir]

Yes.

FoS @ kdowns Your reaction does not equal 3 votes. L-9??? Why are you soooo concerned, why is this pressure?

This is implying that he's overreacting. He's not. Literally all he did was say that he was being pressured. The point of early game votes is pressure. Don't see what's difficult about that.

[Cephrir]

Pages 41-50, because I'm not sure if I'm gonna get to 60 tonight and I want to get this down.

Now, I've given this some thought, and if he is soraka AND on the blue team, we can actually prove he at least has heals AND make him work against the scum team. Here's how I'm thinking.

If most of us are THing and scum try and gank a TH'ed target...no kill. If scum AA someone (abilities aside, this is the only way they are going to control getting kills at night), that can come to light D2 as whoever was AA'ed has no reason to not say so (since scum will know who they targeted with AA's or damaging abilities, town should know too). Come N2, if Panz heals that person, good, it's working against scum. If he doesn't, easy lynch D3. If Panz is scum soraka, then he will have to continually work against his team to keep up the facade. If Panz is town soraka, then scum have to decide if they want to gank someone (since he will be healing and not TH'ing) who looks scummy. Win win for town I think.

So, all aboard kdowns.

Not sure whether this plan is actually good, didn't have to think about it because I knew it wasn't going to matter. But coming up with said plan gets you a few town points (Still voting you though). On the whole lynching scum when you have them is good because they have a tendency to be forgotten. Funny how the plan ends up leading to kthx's permanent agenda.

Now, I've given this some thought, and if he is soraka AND on the blue team, we can actually prove he at least has heals AND make him work against the scum team. Here's how I'm thinking.

If most of us are THing and scum try and gank a TH'ed target...no kill. If scum AA someone (abilities aside, this is the only way they are going to control getting kills at night), that can come to light D2 as whoever was AA'ed has no reason to not say so (since scum will know who they targeted with AA's or damaging abilities, town should know too). Come N2, if Panz heals that person, good, it's working against scum. If he doesn't, easy lynch D3. If Panz is scum soraka, then he will have to continually work against his team to keep up the facade. If Panz is town soraka, then scum have to decide if they want to gank someone (since he will be healing and not TH'ing) who looks scummy. Win win for town I think.

This is brilliant for D1 in a 22 player large and I feel certain it will be ignored by many people or someone will suddenly decide to hammer Panzer soon.

I really doubt we can convince this town to lynch kdowns still but I admire your persistence. There are several places I would put my vote that aren't Panzer. I'm pretty much just waiting for any of them to gain steam.

CF Riot: Still town.

HOW AM I FUCKING CONFIRMED SCUM?

^That's how.

Swing and a miss.

CF Riot just moved to my possiblescum list. His latest post just pings my 'dar in

so

many ways, most noticeably where he basically says "hey, there are lots of people I'd like to vote, but I don't want to be the one sticking my neck out to make any cases on them or anything." and the rest of his play has been fairly reactive as well. I get the vibe that he's just trying to coast.

Okay, this is actually kinda fair.

The only reason my vote has been stuck on kdowns is because there has been no real momentum towards anyone else I would like to lynch since I voted him.

But see, there you go doing it again. You complain that there's no real momentum, but have you don't anything in an effort to

create

the momentum you want to see or are you just sitting back and expecting someone else to do the real work for you?

Unless you can quote me somewhere where you've done this, my original point stands.

Although CF comes up with counterexamples, he also does do a lot of wishing for wagons to come to him. Kind of a TBG-esque stance on voting I guess.

That's not even a good post so I'm going to ignore it.
Explain some reasoning behind your little list there and I'd be more inclined to investigate (in fact I'd look into it as soon as it was posted!)
But you can't so you won't so I'm not going to continue to waste my time trying to convince myself you might be town.

Esurio has it spot on with CF
You guys are trying to lynch Bitmap for the same reasons we could have lynched Riot ages ago. I could be wrong, but that how it appears to me at this time.

@VF
I wasn't saying Pie IS a Jester, I was trying to make the point that he's acting the way he is intentionally (durr) in order to draw in night actions. Therefore he should just be ignored for now. It's a distraction and a waste of time to pursue him. Do you get the point I'm making now?

Interesting how he dismisses Bitmap here (under false pretenses- it's very different) then later ends up voting Bitmap. Not completely sure what to make of the interactions.

@Ank: At least Void had the where-with-all to plan D2 out in regards to a flip. You just go setting up my lynch regardless of Panz alignment. Speaking of which, if Panz does flip town, p1054 looks a hell of a lot like you already knew. You're off the hook if he flips scum though.

Hm. Okay, let's investigate post 1054.

Yeah, I'm 100% willing to off kthx once Panzer is dead. I don't even have to look him up anymore than I already have. Regardless of Panzer's alignment, I'll be taking a good look at d3x if Kthx flips scum at any point.

Yeah no how could he sound any less like he knows Panzer will flip town.

vote panzer

wheeeeeeeeeeee~


=====[]

This makes me want to policy lynch you. Although this is done in kind of a townie manner, I feel like scum get away with quickhammering way too often.

that was the dumbest lynch.

who the hell said that he was the doc for the scum-team?

Such a ridiculous statement had to have been made by scum

I know it's been said but I still can't not say it. Are *you* seriously criticizing that wagon after doing *literally nothing ever*? I lol'd. Scum points (not to mention Zepher does exactly the same thing, although at least he was *playing*.)

AD

p1084: I agree that the lynch was dumb. I proposed a strategy that would both confirm Panz was Soraka and use him regardelss of alignment...it got shot down. Even with it, Panz wanted to be lynched thus he was. I was one of the players who said that even if he was Soraka, that didn't mean he was on blue team. It's still true. Claiming a champ isn't going to put you on one team or another in this set-up so saying that thought only comes from scum is dumb.

Bub

p1085: More 'kthxbye is scum' posts...continue to push that and do literally nothing else. Super town motivated right there.

Kise

p1086: I'm sitting at full health though that should be obvious since I asked the question to begin with. Do you find something scummy about the questions in p1083. If so, explain why.

Bella

p1087: Why Bitmap again? Does any of the information we have gained add to the case on him? How?

Ank

p1088: What info do you think we gained from lynching Panz that out weighs the hit to the blue team?

Reck

p1091: Was it damage or some other sort of pewpew? Was it high or low damage (exact numbers prolly not needed at this juncture)? Was there any other affect that you are aware of or just damage? Do you think scum or town hit you?

And

p1092: That makes sense I suppose. I had a question into Ank about it, but your explanation makes sense. Only thing is, if we were to have followed my plan of proving he was Soraka and made him work for town, we could have postponed his lynch. Someone did some AtF surrounding my plan saying something about maybe he's got a super awesome Ult and just needs to push the lane or something to discredit my plan. Will look into that after this post.

Also, do you think town or scum pewpew'ed Reck (and Void for that matter)?

AD

p1094: Dude, he claimed soraka...the whole plan for confirming himself and negating damage to town thing was me trying to use him even if he was scum soraka. Where were you yesterday when this was all going down if you feel so strongly about it now? What are your guesses at the 2-3 scum?

CF

p1099: Awful...just awful

Void

: Same questions to you as to Reck.

Asking 700 questions is neither contributing nor scumhunting. Classic way to score free town points. None from me, sir. Also fishing for amount of damage taken is scummy.

PSA: If you're town and you've claimed that damage has been done to you... you're probably just making yourself a more appealing target. Stahp.

This.

Bella

p1087: Why Bitmap again? Does any of the information we have gained add to the case on him? How?

Was scum yesterday, is still scum today. Still a better lynch than any of the other wagons springing up at this point.

(Catching up at the moment, been busy today).

Why doesn't anyone else see this except like one person?

also reck if you're going to spend the entire game being terrible, just fucking replace out or scumclaim so you can lay down and die.

I expect better from you.

But actually. Rarely have I seen such a concerted effort at being useless.

I am back from PAX East and will get to this shortly. >:3

And how the fuck am I at 4 votes when Reck has been doing less shit than me?

"Look over there! He's worse, and you were even just talking about him!" 0/10.

Reck stop being useless. And "No u" isn't anything other than a pointlessly subjective answer.

I'm okay with this lynches atm:
ActionDan, CF Riot, KTB, Bitmap, Reck

Also I think I can be convinced to lynch Kise but not over any of the listed people.

I can write more later. this is just a reminder for myself.

Chances there's a scum or two in that list: really high. I mean outside of the fact that I already suspect 3 of those players.... yeah OK I don't know why I bothered pointing this out.

IPie hammered like a boss the first chance he got and didn't bother given an excuse for it. His lack of concern for what people may think of this says town to me.

Voided reacts with "..." and another post which both imply the hammer was bad, but he doesn't tell why it's bad. He's also on the wagon, so it doesn't make sense that he should not want the hammer to drop. This tells me he knows Panz is town and is setting up to put the blame for that on IPie. Scummy.

Venmar is on the wagon and is glad the hammer dropped. He was one of the first to vote Panzer, his reaction reads as very genuine. Town.

MrZepher reacts negatively to the hammer despite being on the wagon. This tells me he knows Panz is town. Scummy.

Agreed on IPie, sort of (not giving him a pass for being useless though). Not as convinced on Venmar's reaction, especially it being as strong as strong a tell as you seem to be suggesting.

<3 you too brandimuffin

also esu, just remembered: I did say I pulled roughly 4.5% of the list out of my ass, that 4.5% happened to be Brandi because I was still confus

Awfully convenient, why would you not have said that at the time?

(case against MrZepher)

Hoo boy that is quite a slam dunk out of nowhere. I'm gonna go ahead and say this catapults you all the way back to neutral.

Did CF seriously call out my obviously joke post as being scummy?

Really?

I'm not even going to go any further with that. You should be ashamed of yourself.

In joke form, you basically said "this lynch was bad," before the flip. That coming from someone who strongly felt Panz was town would make sense. Coming from you, I would expect a joke form of "yay, we lynched my scumread." It doesn't make sense to me that town would react negatively to a lynch they were pursuing.

The first time I read this post I felt like it was semantics. Then I read it again and completely agreed.

So I think Esurio is scum. Kthx.

VOTE: esuriospiritus

And no I will not be bribed for skins.

Also, I have my ultimate. No one attacked me. What a shocker.

asdfjtiwerngvwr NO you didnt aaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

You can't just SAY you're town and think your argument holds any significance based on your word.
I believe I've stated this on multiple occasions.

VOTE: Bitmap
I might come back and unvote later if I'm not comfortable with the reading I've done, for now I'm too busy to read into CF and Venmar like I would like to.
(I haven't said anything about Venmar, I'm aware.)
Bitmap has done too much shuffling of peas to make them appear eaten. I don't like it. Vote goes here until I find time to put it somewhere better.

V/LA until Friday

Hrrg. I don't think this actually gets Bitmap any points, as this is a self-preservation vote on the only other wagon, and I think just about anyone would bus the hell out of Bitmap in that situation if Bitmap were on their scumteam.

Suspects haven't changed much. Bitmap and kthx are roughly on the same level followed by Ank.

[Cephrir]

Oh, I forgot to add ActionDan and Reck to that list. The former is scummier than Ank.

[Cephrir]

So can I just use my ultimate tonight and you guys can kill me tonight or lynch me tomorrow?

*yawn* can we kill you now?

@Pie: I'd meant to reply to you earlier but got sidetracked; your last few lines of your most recent post come off as

incredibly

disingenuous when we've been hydraing almost every game for the last few months. I know your meta, yes, but more importantly you should

already

have known that I know your meta, so there's no way that sentence was actually written at me.

Who were you trying to fool, and why bluff?

I'm confus D:

Reply of the century

Unvote, Vote: Actiondan

Calling panzer lynch "awful as fuck" without trying to do anything about it (let alone play the gorramn game). Overplaying Panzer's roledrops, calling the wagon scum without ANY suspects AT ALL.
Calling the town Vig/AA FUNCTION "terrible" even before THE PLAN.
Against a plan that "cripples town" (it doesn't) while initially proposing the plan that cripples town.
Namely because that last post was horrendous. Yeah.

p.s. I'm currently happy with d3x, though he should vote.

For one, I don't see what's so wrong with town AAing. The lynch is controlled by 80%-ish town players, and an individual townie's autoattack is controlled by one solitary 100% town player. It's kind of like the point of vigs? Except this way you have the ability to change your mind later. So basically AD looks pretty scummy, and the not-even-active-lurking does not help.

Unvote, Vote: Actiondan

Calling panzer lynch "awful as fuck" without trying to do anything about it (let alone play the gorramn game). Overplaying Panzer's roledrops, calling the wagon scum without ANY suspects AT ALL.
Calling the town Vig/AA FUNCTION "terrible" even before THE PLAN.
Against a plan that "cripples town" (it doesn't) while initially proposing the plan that cripples town.
Namely because that last post was horrendous. Yeah.

p.s. I'm currently happy with d3x, though he should vote.

it was awful as fuck. People who lynch claimed docs without counterclaims D1 are reprehensible. Overplaying what roledops. He claimed Soraka, the Doc.
The wagon contains scum, the majority of them even. I have barely given more than 1-2 hours time to this game, largely due to how repugnant it had become over the span of a few days, so I can't tell you who they are. No one had stuck out as scummy for me prior.
Autoattacking is anti-town in general. Killing off people arbitrarily on the basis of them being 2nd 3rd 4th lynches (depending on how many mob squads you are planning on) entails the requirement of everyone doing what they are supposed to do when there are scum that can manipulate the outcome. Not to mention you give scum perfect information and reduces town to being forced to kill off someone because if they don't, the target might not die, causing problems the next day + suspicion would come their way if anyone learned that they went off and did their own thing. 2ndly the problem with killing people is that they die. cool beans if they are mafia, not so great if town. I don't trust popular opinion to triumph over scum's ability to affect the desired outcome in their favor.

I also resent your hyperbole in your condemnation of the strategy I presented without providing your own argument as to why you think it would be "Crippling" to implement it for 2 days.

While I don't necessarily agree with the plan, killing 2nd/3rd lynch targets, especially in a game chock full of useless players, seems useful in a vacuum.

seriously

I'm pretty sure AD is scum. But now he's gonna slip through the nets because people like you are gonna go "oh herpaderp he's just another clownfuck not putting effort into the game but look! he has townreads! that means he IS trying, he just doesn't have

time

, poor soul. He must be town."

No. Fuck that shit. The scum clownfucks are now catching on to the fact that they can try do the same thing as the town clownfucks and just lurk all game and probably get away with it because NOBODY IN THIS GAME FUCKING CARES.

Honestly I should just replace out and leave you fucks to your own apathetic devices, but I want to win so I'm going to yell at you all until you fucking shape up instead.

A girl after my own heart.

side note- I'd say the ADWagon was Scum driven due to the proximity of Voting to the MrZWagon forming, but I have most of those peeps in my TownReads pile... meh.

This is pretty much all AD has going for him in my book right now.

Here is the problem with AD being scum. ALL of the strategy talk he has done is beneficial for town wincon and hindering to scum wincon. It's the same reason I see Dex as town. The basis of the argument for ad is he is lurking, not scum hunting, and isn't posting reads. Um...hi, have you met kdowns, Reck, bub?

There's a reason IIoA is considered a tell. (although all tells are subject to context) I've played games as Scum where I've walked Town through optimal play, largely ignored scumhunting, and proceeded to laugh as I rode the towncred from the advice unopposed, because I didn't do anything big enough to make waves.



I really do not like AD's recent posts. Look at the below:

scumhunting is something I've barely done in any of my town games for months now. elaborate cases and questions are a rarity nowadays. I get by by pronouncing my town reads which I pick up easily enough and by promoting a town image of myself to try to protect myself from a lynch.

I just have no words as to how this got posted. He just flat out said that he doesn't care about scumhunting and is largely concerned with everyone seeing him as Town . It's not like the mafia doesn't need to scumhunt and wins by being viewed as the most Town or anything...

What he said:

And I'm one of those people that spends hours making a case. so yes. If I want to be correct. And making correct, worthwhile cases, it takes large amounts of time. Time I really don't have at the moment.

What I read:

I'm Scum, and I want to make sure I don't look scummy for posting a bad case, so I'm only going to post one when I can be sure it won't backfire.

His (null)reads list definitely helped cement that for me. I'd be on him right now if I didn't think the run-up on him and off MrZ was weird, but I really like him as an AA target tonight.

Words straight out of my mouth.

MrZepher (4): pieceofpecanpie, CF Riot, kthxbye, TehBrawlGuy

I find it odd that you don't comment on any of those on your wagon. Why are you not looking into those on YOUR wagon if you're town? The most you have said recently is that CF should be ashamed, popp's case is shallow, and you'd be okay with my lynch.

Do you think there is scum voting you right now? If so, other than voting you, why are they scum?

Just because you like to OMGUS your wagon doesn't mean everyone else feels the same way. A plyer voting for you, even if you know you're town, is never a scumtell in and of itself (unless you're esurio)-- it's about how they do it...

If your plan is to go through and iso everyone individually, don't you think it'd be better to instead just re-read the whole game, take notes while you're doing it, and get to read everyone in context that way?

I'd like if you could try to explain further why exactly it is you think andy is scum because as far as I can tell you disagreed with a few strategy-posts and decided to TUNNELTUNNEL from there, which isn't exactly a convincing case.

nah, already have been reading through the game, iso-ing everyone in a vacuum is better and I can still look at stuff in context if necessary

re: andy, tl;dr:

- first post is so... forced. You disagree?
- helps push the panzer lynch when it was gaining steam while staying on kdowns
- defends panzer incredibly hard once the lynch gains steam (read above comment then this again)
- pushes a plan to co-ordinate AAs: either scum gain info or everyone does what they want anyway. there is no pro-town point to this plan, looks like scum trying to gain towncred by coming up with AWESOME TOWN LEADER PLANS YEAH
- in addition to the above, wants damaged targets to claim (how does this help town if scum can AA?)
- does NOT want those AAing to claim (again, read above comment and tell me how this makes sense)
- does not want people that have not taken damage to claim

Very interesting points. Good to see you trying and going after an unconventional target. I'd like to take this opportunity to say I nearly cried at your Bitmap ISO.

MrZephyr - Popp's initial case in #1211 is on the weak side. I could go into more detail if it's wanted, but this isn't conclusive for me by any stretch. D3x's #1309 is more convincing. #1317 by Popp is weak at best.

Venmar - After Panzer's lynch, he's been fine being on the sidelines and being reactive. This is off-putting, but not really enough for a vote at this point.

Kthxbye - Actions near the end of D1 are a significant source of my scumread on him. I don't really have the willpower to go through his entire ISO, but I get scum vibes every time he mentions kdowns being a top contender for a lynch. It's rather tiring to see him talk about kdowns 5x as much as MrZ, even though the latter is where his vote is at. Just ISO him and highlight kdowns, then tell me it's not confirmation bias. #1234 is only giving me a stronger scumread since he realizes that his kdowns wagon is going to be ignored, but just tunnels down on him anyway. Scumread.

CF Riot - Yeah, Brandi vote is bad. #134 is mixed town and scum vibes. I don't like #453 at all. His stance on Voided also gets set up early but doesn't really take off for several hundred posts. #522 and #547 together are giving me pause. It feels like he has a concrete stance in the former, but explains it like he's not entirely sure in the latter. He states that he voiced disagreement with the Panzer wagon in #1047, but the only posts he could possibly be thinking of is #353, #599, #1025, and #1038. The first two aren't disagreements, the third is saying that there's other people he'd like to vote first (not exactly disagreement although that post in general gives me bad vibes), and the last is just more of the same.

He also comments about how nobody really follows his opinions and forms wagons with him, then makes a weak meta argument in #1049 with the VM vote. This would have been a great time to go through all your reasons why VM is scum. It's very warying that he's suddenly calling the Panzer wagon a false wagon here as well, since the only real read he ever gave about Panzer (and his disagreement argument is weak at best) is that he could be scum. Overall scumread.

TehBrawlGuy - He's hard to read for me. I'll put him on the backburner and take a look at him later

Bitmap - Scummy for #718, #841, #871, #886, #894, #1185, #1274. Out of the pile of useless people, he's the scummiest overall.

Kise - Nothing he says really stands out for me. Unless someone can point me to something significant, I'm not going to read through his entire ISO. I was waiting to post this so I could see what ActionDan has so I could look through with more focus, but it's obvious now that I'm not going to get an answer to this.

Andrius - Very minor scum vibes on his first post of D1. I looked for when he voted after that initial Brandi vote, and found that he voted kdowns in #359 for his reaction. I actually find that really weak and it's giving me bad vibes. Fluff is null, but get minor town vibes from his admitting the vote is bad. Overall scum read up to this point. CFRiot vote is townish. Null/town on most posts after that until #938, which gives me a bad feeling in my gut. Otherwise, his Bitmap and ActionDan pressure read town.

Overall Andy is pretty much null. There's plenty of people I'd like gone before him.

pieceofpecanpie - Cases in day 2 read fairly town. I didn't have any particular suspicion outside of my initial 'clash' with him, which wasn't that conclusive in of itself. Overall on the town side; he's one of those people I'm willing to pass off for a while and look at in more detail in later days. #1258 give me big town vibes.

---

I'm staying far from the AD wagon, since it looks more scum driven than town driven.

Like this post a lot, town-minded and careful analysis.

I currently do not have an opinion on Andrius because I'm too tired to actually read 1499.

Things aren't really changing that much when I only do 10 pages at a time. Still suspect kthx, Bitmap, Reckslot, ActionDan.

[Cephrir]

@Ank: Not tremendously likely, though it would be a pretty sick play if so. I tend to think scum wouldn't go quite that hard out defending one another to the death. If kthx did turn up scum though, I would certainly consider it.

[Cephrir]

Bella

p1087: Why Bitmap again? Does any of the information we have gained add to the case on him? How?

Was scum yesterday, is still scum today. Still a better lynch than any of the other wagons springing up at this point.

(Catching up at the moment, been busy today).

Why doesn't anyone else see this except like one person?

When you are all caught up and ready to cast your vote, I'd like to point out Bella is the leading wagon.

How flexible are you with your reads, Cephrir?

Well first of all, nothing is set in stone until I fully catch up.

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by flexible, but they certainly change with time. Others can change my reads but there has to be a pretty good case involved.

[Cephrir]

Could we have a deadline extension due to replacements?

Seconded

Thirded

[Cephrir]

@Kise: You'll see me changing my mind somewhat based on Brandi's day 2 play, but I still hold suspecting D1-Brandi against popp because I don't see how anyone can read her D1 posts as scummy. I can acknowledge that he wasn't the only one thinking this at the time but attacking her so heavily for it bothered me. As for whether I can change my reads at all, I think you can already see I've changed on popp and as of this post I no longer consider Brandi above suspicion, just town.

Pages 61-70

I don't like throwing down a votes unless I feel something really click in my mind.
Quit telling everyone else how to play.

Yeah this won't fly.

Yep. Brandi really needs to step it up, her towniness is no longer obvious but nonetheless factual.

you guys should lynch me, then when andy/esurio is still alive kill them

Esurio has been playing "hurr hurr Im in control of the town I tell everyone what to do X IS SO TOWN Y IS SO TOWN"

calling me town like crazy d1 and now suddenly thinks its safe to change her read, even though it makes no sense at all for her to feel so confident I was town in the first place. She doesn't know how I play so why go against everyone else?
Oh because maybe she thought I'd get lynched D1, so she'd look good in comparison by calling me town.

She's said a lot of words this game to do so little. My reasoning for voting her earlier is the way she pushed on AD. AD said some of the towniest shit ever and she didn't like that, so she felt like arbitrarily calling him scum. All of her reasons against him were horrible.
I figured the way her play was D1 and D2 were completely different. She's not playing to get scum lynched, just trying to look like shes in control while suttly trying to get the not-so-obv townies to go down.

This argument borders on "too townie" v.v

I am voting someone?

And no I didn't check yourself. Plenty of people who have called me scum I've called town.


@VOID: Are you serious? Why is everyone in this game such a toxic asshole. This is a /game/ not "hey lets gang up on one person and treat them like shit"
You're a horrible person.

Using this post as a proxy for all the emotional raging. I don't know how I feel about this. Pretty huge overreaction to VM's fairly innocuous posts, but Brandi is an emotional player. I may have to just ignore the flip-out for now.

im ok with her reaction

Unvote

Not sure how her reaction could possibly be considered acceptable play or a reason for an unvote.

VM: gotta ask, is your 'trust me esur is town' just a read on her play or champ ability confirmation?

...Right.

Vote: Kthnx

Seriously, what the fuck? I've seen kthx's claim and I don't see how it makes this point any less prominent.

i forgot this VOTE: d3x

(Followed by switching to kthx)
Same argument applies here that I used with Bitmap, I don't think this counts in kthx's favor, as he is incredibly bussable.

Cool, was waiting on that zephereaction. (although... that is a bad vote on d3x and you should feel bad)

VOTE: Ankamius

I knew there was gonna be at least one scum who couldn't resist a sweet and juicy Brandi mislynch.

I'm not reading Brandi's recent posts as scum.

PEdit: Seriously? 4 posts in 3 minutes?

Oh my god. I can't believe I missed that the first time.

There's so much damn spam going on that I'm just skimming everything.

UNVOTE: Kthxbye
VOTE: Brandi

PEdit: Both Kthx and Brandi need rope. Bitmap's slot is a strong third choice.

I'm really not sure what Ank is referring to with OMG CAN'T BELIEVE I MISSED THAT; probably Voided's post that was in between these two posts, but that's really not the point. Point being... either he read Brandi's posts (as he implies in the first post) or he didn't (as implied in the second one). Can't have it both ways. At the very least he's certainly caught in a lie, but I think there's more to it than that. The way he suddenly switched stances here reads incredibly disingenuous.

This post is pretty great. Ank is back on my scumlist.

I'm not reading Brandi's recent posts as scum.

PEdit: Seriously? 4 posts in 3 minutes?

Oh my god. I can't believe I missed that the first time.

There's so much damn spam going on that I'm just skimming everything.

UNVOTE: Kthxbye
VOTE: Brandi

PEdit: Both Kthx and Brandi need rope. Bitmap's slot is a strong third choice.

Above is what she was referring to below.

I'm really not sure what Ank is referring to with OMG CAN'T BELIEVE I MISSED THAT; probably Voided's post that was in between these two posts, but that's really not the point. Point being... either he read Brandi's posts (as he implies in the first post) or he didn't (as implied in the second one). Can't have it both ways. At the very least he's certainly caught in a lie, but I think there's more to it than that. The way he suddenly switched stances here reads incredibly disingenuous.

This post specifically was what brought me back to Brandi-scum.

its not AtE when Im not trying to fucking appeal to anyone
please fucking kill me

unvote

vote: Brandi

Get your easy win scum
youll never have to play with me again
fuck

The first line and the second line are the specific reason. I have a very hard time believing that stating that she's not using AtE and immediately using it is genuine.

I don't buy this. Brandi is losing her shit, you can't expect her posts to be even remotely thought-out. And the second line isn't really an AtE. An AtE is "look at all the scum ganging up and being mean to me" or something like that, asking to die is just asking to die- I don't think someone would ever say this if they weren't legitimately flipping the fuck out.

Andy's conviction in Panzer flipping town feels weird to me now that we know that Panzer actually was town. Could just be me though.

See this is a massive fucking lose-lose for me.
If he flipped scum I would have DEFINITELY been the next lynch as OVEREAGER DEFENDER.
But now he flipped town and I'm scum for defending someone who was town.

So yeah. wat do zepher. wat do.

A very good point, this is one of my pet peeves. I hate it when players make a point that can obviously be easily flipped the reverse way if player X turns out to be the opposite of alignment Y and still used to suspect Z.

Bub Bidderskins

Low postcount. Automatic WHAT HAVE YOU BEEN DOING.

Starts off with reads. Good.
Sees what I saw with the CFR vote on Brandi.
Good analysis.

Good response to kdowns.
Calling pie scummy is good, reads are good. Responses to wagon is also good.
Reck is NOT a godsend. :/

Brandi's line was passable in the theory sense.
kthx's vote was stretching.
Bub's pressues is good.

I agree with Bub's vote on kthx.

Panzer's vote isn't great, but it's on the right wagon. Right now my strongest scumread is Kthx, and that trumps all.

unvote

some questions for the class:

out of kthx, kdowns, and panzer: who is most likely to be scum?
does anyone think it's possible all three are scum? two? is anyone certain only one can be scum?
does anyone have buddies for any of the three (and reasons why)?
is there another player who's been heavily focused that should be added to this list? was going to add brandi but I might be biased
If you don't know how to lie, then how do you know when you're being lied to?

Gee, I wonder if there's somebody else we can mislynch other than my scumbud kthx?

Bub, if kthx turns out to be scum remind me this post exists.


kthx's squirming is bad. Bub's analysis is good.
His CFR argument in 834 is a bit stretch but I like the thought.

Action Dan was totally null until esurio called him out. His response to that was super-scummy. He was basically coasting until he couldn't coast anymore, and when he came back into the game he just defended his coasting instead of producing content.

No I definitely agreed with that.

The only thing I don't like is how he's not really suspecting/pushing anyone besides kthx, save for a couple nods at CFR.

Town. Scum betting ALL THE MARBLES is something I don't see here.


kdowns is kdowns and therefore town.
Don't see scumkdowns particularly.
Also Bella's PURPLE/RED argument is great here.


BELLA

Bella's thing at Reck in her first post is great. Definitely a town mindset there.
If Bella IS actually scum look at kdowns, namely her PURPLE/RED defense as it pretty much clears kdowns if it holds.

Bella is beautiful.
She's a bit behind, but still great.



ActionDan. I'm going to do something radical and write off all the SETUP SPEC as null.
In other news, depriving the town of lynches is NOT a good idea.
He has townreads.
Says Brandi might be rolefishing, yet does not imply her being scum. wut
Votes pie. Nothing reasoning-wise though let's be honest pie's play was rather lacking.

that was the dumbest lynch.

who the hell said that he was the doc for the scum-team?

Such a ridiculous statement had to have been made by scum

Implies Brandiscum.
Doesn't vote brandi or pursue the lead.

Either sarcasm or scum throwing stuff out there.

But did he mean:

Still confident that Panzer is scum.
"Doc"
Hah. He could easily have some sort of healing ability... one that heals his scummy teammates.

or:

Yeah. No doc wants to claim at 3 votes. I think Panzer's confidence that town wouldn't lynch him comes from claiming doctor. Thing is, why wouldn't scum need a doctor when all of town could attack them?

HRM

So apparently he meant Kise.
Iiiiii dont really remember where I was taking this so I'll leave it here. :/


Presents a list of all the players. Lots of ?'s, not many scumreads. Some leaning, but no SCUM! reads.

VOTE: Kise

I don't believe in his vote after looking through his iso. And I dislike his suggestions that lurkers are acceptable AA targets in lieu of THing.

what

why would you want to keep lurkers (kdowns) alive indefinitely? Because otherwise we're going to have to lynch them...



Someone is going to have to explain d3x scum to me because I just dont get scummotives from his posts.

tl;dr

Bub - Town
kdowns - Town AA Target
Bella - Town
AD - Scum
d3x - Town

What I've seen of kthx through Bub's ISO: Scum

I pretty much agree with the reads, and I like that Andy is analyzing players that aren't likely to be lynched immediately. I'm not looking at the current VC but I have to wonder what can have changed on Bella if he's voting her. Only thing I don't agree with, and this is a point that comes up often, is the point that kdowns is town but needs to die anyway...like half the game seems to think this, I don't get it. I only see kdowns as null, but these stances seem asynchronous.

I put the ball in Popp's court and he's done nothing with it.

No, what you said was this:

@Popp: Do you even know how to read?
Like, at all? Literally every point you've made on anybody could have been solve by actually reading and not skimming pages like it seems you've been doing.

That's not

"putting the ball in my court"

, as you choose to describe it, that's you saying

"You're a big dumb-dumb who can't understand words and make complicated judgements because you don't have the vocabulary or the patience to look at entire posts."

So the thing about something like that is I don't have to do

anything

with it. My original case stands, I believe it shows I'm anything but illiterate and do take the entire scope of the game into consideration.

I've called him out for skimming (or at least I remember doing so, I could be wrong here) and he admitted to doing it on this page.

Awww hell no! Perhaps you need to work on your reading comprehension skills. The only reason I've "admitted" to skimming, is because

I was V/LA for two days

and just popped in to say I was back and in the process of catching up.

Nice job on the mudflinging, I don't need to spend time openly speculating about whether your absence has be the 'ol back-away-till-interest-in-my-wagon-dies-down or the other frequently used I-totally-have-a-life-away-from-here-and-have-been-busy-right-nao-guiyse-foar-realz, because your initial response to my case and this little arbitrary and bogus link you've drawn between me reading posts or just skimming is scumtells enough for me.

You didn't need to defend yourself at all, there's no obligation to, unless you're worried how ignoring "weak cases" on you would've looked. However, thanks to your #1582 my interest in seeing you lynched has flared right up again. Honestly, you should've just kept your mouth shut instead of openly lying in an attempt to discredit me. I didn't skim read when making your case, and I don't make strong judgements based off skimming. When I'm here and active, you better believe I put some thought into my words. If you shared that quality, you wouldn't be digging your own grave.

@everyone

My interest in the Zepher wagon was waning, and I was starting to consider shifting my vote,

however

as of now I'm much happier about it again and will be pushing this wagon for the next few days.

I'm also continuing with the catch up.

More town points for popp.

Heh, interestingly, Voided claimed that the supporters of the "All Towerhug and NL" were scum, yet the largest supporter for the idea was Dramonic, who was town and got killed off last night.

Worth noting I guess, I am otherwise un-caught up, not used to large games guys. I'll keep trying.

Revises this statement later but I'm more interested in the constant popping in to say one fairly useless thing that still conveys he's mostly reading the thread. This guy should have been on And's lurker list.

Replace me please

Thank goodness.

I'm shen. Last night I taunted vm hense the 1 damage. It doesn't prove he's not scum, but he didn't take an action last night that I'm aware of.

Why VM over kdowns? Why VM at all, I don't recall you suspecting him?

By the by, I will continue to taunt till scum get worried and take me out with a gank. There is really no need to lynch me today as my targets will have to explain their actions which gives town more info. Obviously calling out my target is stupid. I can list my other abilities if the class would like.

Using this post as a proxy for eveything that comes up to do with this. It seems like the suspicion just rolls off him after the inexplicably magical claim (it seemed way too early to call that out willy-nilly to me, by the way). Are we going to let everyone off the hook if they claim something mildly interesting? That's just going to happen almost every time someone claims, right...?

I'm shen. Last night I taunted vm hense the 1 damage. It doesn't prove he's not scum, but he didn't take an action last night that I'm aware of.

I imagine your taunt cancels whatever action they were making and instead they autoattack you. Which also probably means VM only auto attacks for 1 damage.

This doesn't prove much at all actually, is my assumption correct?

Unvote

This doesn't prove anything, which is why I'm going to unvote you!

wut


Kind of don't like that Kthx isn't outing his other abilities upfront when he's said he's just going to taunt all game. There's no use hiding them if you're not going to use them.

Good point on Venmar as well as kthx.

[Cephrir]

Note to self: Don't forget to look back to see who started the AD wagon.

[Cephrir]

vote:MrZepher

Of the "three options" that is the one I'm most willing to vote.

I absolutely will not vote actiondan, and I absolutely will not vote Kthx. (Two of my strongest town reads) I feel pretty null on Ank. Zepher is the only one who has been remotely scummy.

I'm having trouble finding time to post but its not as if I don't want to play. I'm thankful for the extension.
I just wanted to find a few hours to sit down to respond to voided's questions like I promised but none of my free time involves multiple hours. :/

Interesting. This is still in time for the wagon to be derailed and she basically completely supports it without trying to get any bussing-cred. Town.

I don't care for your "cues" scum, and I will not take orders from you, thanks.

Oh come on.

You say I and two others are scum, but for weak reasons. I've asked what those reasons are.

The weak reasons would be sheeping off of others reasons that sounded logical to me. Sometimes I don't see things myself right away, but others make good points and it makes me think "hmm, maybe they are onto something;" So my "weak reasons" would be mostly gut, POE, and things others have already stated.

C.) How? What has AD posted since the beginning of D2 that's so town?

AD's defense of me was incredibly townie. Not -because- he defended me- but the way he did it. He actually gave logical reasons and promoted me in a way that he could never go back on it. Esurio on the otherhand just said I was "towntowntown" - no reasons given, something easy to say but without reason she couldn't really be held accountable as easily if she were to "change her mind"
AD's read on me felt genuine, and not artificial like Esurio's.
I feel like this set something off in Esu in particular. She was calling me town before, but didn't like that AD was giving real reasons as to why I was town. She wanted him to shut up and die, so that she could more easily get townies like myself lynched in the future.

D.) her D1 and D2 play are different.- Can you explain this?

Sure, D1 Esurio was harping really hard on how I was definitely town. I found this strange, that someone who has never played with me would feel so confident in me being town when the rest of the town was pretty much calling me scum/scummy. This alone made me feel esu was scum. Because I wasn't being the towniest player, and it's easy for scum to call someone heavily under fire town when they feel they might get lynched regardless of one nay-sayer. I feel she was pre-emptively presevering herself. But D2, she calls me scum. The way that she was so "confident" yesterday about my towniness despite not being a very obv-town player, and the complete 180 where she calls me scum when nothing of my own has changed much. (I'm still over emotional, still unhelpful, still kind of crazy and confusing...) It feels disingenuous.

Don't agree on AD but this is a town post.

You don't have to think someone is scum to pressure them. It can be as simple as "hey lurkertownfuck, post more and stop sucking at

life

the universe

everything

this game. And here are some questions I want you to answer."

There are also times where it's advantageous to pressure a townread like you think they're scum so you can get more info out of them (see: pretty much every post I've made @Pie this game <_<)

@andy, pie: I want you to fucking promise you'll keep a close eye on popp if I die and you're still around... I realize pretty much no one else thinks he's scum and I'm probably the one who's wrong here but the way he comments on things from the sidelines without ever getting down and dirty and in the thick of things pings my gut

really

fucking hard.

you guys are like the only non-clownfucks that I really trust this game sooooooooooooo yeah

it's like he got enough people calling him town d1 that he was just like "k I can sit back for the rest of the game and coast, no need to rock any more boats this game"

at least kill that cheekyfuck before lylo please and thank you

This post brought to you by the word "fuck!" It's fucking fucktastic!

Valid points. The Zepher case is pretty much the only reason popp isn't on my scumlist.

So, here are my thoughts about what happened:

#105 "dear Brandi, please understand that it looks like you are scum. <no vote>". Feels like scum trying to add momentum to a wagon without officially commiting.

Nope try again.

The kdowns wagon

As already written above, this one is complete crap. Ignoring the color of the scum team is a

townslip

, not a

scumslip

. To make this even worse, some people were acting like "oh it's so obvious from the role PM". No it is not. Actually, from the role PM i got, there is no precision about whether i'm on the majority side, the minority side, or on a 50/50 battle.

#150 This one feels like someone that actually doesn't know the town PM doesn't really refer on being on the majority side.
#168 Oh another one that acts as if the role PM is enough to know it's not a 50/50 split.

FoS: xRECKONERx

. That's already two strikes.

Attacking people for knowing that the game they are playing is in fact mafia? For real?

KThxbye wagon

A solid wagon, that I 100% support. The crew on it is pretty decent too. On the other side, the Panzer wagon is awful, and strangely enough the crew on it is also awful (Brandi, Reck, KThxBye? wow). However it quickly stalls, despite people strongly advocating for him (with in my vision, pretty good reasons).

"Hey you guys know how you lynched a townie day 1? You totally shouldn't have done that." No shit, Sherlock.

- I'm not totally oppposed to Zepher lynch, but i don't find anything particularly scummy.

Vote: KThxBye

Fence sit the flipped scum harder please.

Goddammit, I thought the deadline had passed...

unvote

, VOTE: MrZepher

I'd rather have a lynch over no lynch and I feel more strongly that the kthx spot is town. I remain unconvinced that Zepher is scum.

Like Brandi, hops on the wagon without, hypothetically, trying to cash in on towncred when Zepher flips scum. If he'd flipped town I would find this suspicious (trying to avoid the blame) but in this case I like it. Only issue is that he was probably being lynched anyway at this point.

##Vote Zephir

this is better than no-lynch.

But no-lynch better than kthx.

I have to go to play a poker tournament.

To some extent the point I made about Bella and Brandi applies here, except it also contains an apparent complete certainty the kthx is town- seriously, a townie should never prefer no lynch to lynch this early this unless he's a cop with an innocent- and continually demonstrates AD's unsurpassed levels of uselessness.

more serious answer: are you mad because I out-WIFOMed your scum-team, and/or are you still butthurt about that D1 shit, and/or are you trying to suggest you find my "town-heavy fluff" suspicious?

Those are the only possible reasons I can see you having for bringing it up.

Additional return question: You were the first vote on the Zepher lynch. Why vote him but not devote time to rallying people to your cause? IME people who are among the first to champion a wagon are usually the louder ones about it.

Will move my vote to ActionDan if it's needed. That won't be because of a weak scumread on him, but more because of the interaction between Zepher and AD. So for me, lynching either one gives me some insight into the other one. I still prefer Zepher, as on the whole he is helping my reads on more than just AD.

and what does the zepher flip say for your AD read?

pedit: ...you DO know what wifom is, right

I might need to rethink my kthx scumread....

Too late scum..

I thought I'd pull the gank last night, hence why I tower hugged....ah well, at least I'm level 4 now...

Also, someone used an ability on me (did 1 whole damage). Maybe scum with a role block? hrm....

Some more interesting points here. I'm curious as to esurio's opinion about popp starting the Zepher wagon, though it seems she's gone now. She sort of addresses it IIRC but continues suspecting him?

in other news kthx's post reads like absolute shit. "oh no i was damaged must be scum RB" and "oh no i thought i'd draw the gank so i towerhugged"
YEAH BULLSHIT
SCUM DONT GANK THE LEADING FUCKING WAGON FOR TWO DAYS RUNNING
way to be useful

also and to the haters who thought VM was scum: LOLNOPE

Vote: kise

Seriously, kthx, that's fucking ridiculous.

also im sorry kthx i dont mean to be rude or an asshat
but why would you think you would draw the gank
and if you honestly did
why would you think that would be a BAD thing?

Well, I'm damn near the most conf town currently alive with that flip. I'm not getting lynched. Only way to kill me is with a NK. I have a taunt which is pretty powerful and a good way to catch scum misbehaving. I said I was going to taunt constantly. Thus...why wouldn't scum target me last night? And...uh...how would the most conf town player alive getting ganked and dying NOT be a bad thing? Are you saying it would have been better for me to die last night?

HAHAHAHAHA

Kthx puts a small amount of pressure early onto Zephyr here, posts this directly afterwards, then soon after THAT posts this.

This is a definite early bus possibility. Early pressure, followed by a request not to make it big, then completely dropping it.

Here, Kthx first starts putting pressure on MrZephyr again, this time about 20 posts after popp first makes his case. However, it's barely anything until here and here. Normally this would be town, but not in this case.

First of all, he's still focusing primarily on kdowns while having his vote on Zephyr. With basically no reasoning between him calling Zephyr town and his vote, he looks like he doesn't give a shit whether Zephyr is scum or not. He's mindlessly bandwagoning and it gives me the sense that he wants town cred for this if it goes through. This isn't dissuading me at all. Primarily the last line.

This is absolutely hilarious to me, since he still hasn't given any kind of reasoning towards why he thinks Zephyr is scum.

Here he abandons the wagon entirely to try forming up a new one. He still hasn't given me a sense that he was ever truly interested in Zephyr because he was scummy. This is even worse with this post where he not only states that Zephyr isn't scummy anymore, but he's also moved on to preparing to sheep someone else's scumread (namely Andrius' on me). I even asked him what changed, but this was the response. He flip flopped hard on Zephyr and started adding me as a primary focus to his scum list.

TL;DR

Early Kthx/Zephyr scuffle looks like a possible bus.
Kthx puts his vote on Zephyr fast after he starts getting any kind of suspicion, but gives pretty much no reasoning and overall looks disinterested in it.
Eventually leaves the wagon momentarily, rejoins stating a strong scum read, quickly leaves soon after, then gives flip floppy opinions on him the rest of the day. That does not read town to me.

VOTE: Kthxbye

PEDIT: @Kise I barely looked at your ISO when I made my second reads post, which should be pretty obvious just by reading it. I remember reading only a small part of it, but it was long enough ago that I can't remember which.

Also, explain what adaic means as well as what you mean in #1885.

This may partially be confirmation bias but this post seems really plausible. Kthx -> Zepher looks like bussing to me but I'm not as convinced about the reverse.

Cleared was the wrong word, I agree. Nice, but before that
->

Cool, was waiting on that zephereaction. (although... that is a bad vote on d3x and you should feel bad)

VOTE: Ankamius

I knew there was gonna be at least one scum who couldn't resist a sweet and juicy Brandi mislynch.

I'm not reading Brandi's recent posts as scum.

PEdit: Seriously? 4 posts in 3 minutes?

Oh my god. I can't believe I missed that the first time.

There's so much damn spam going on that I'm just skimming everything.

UNVOTE: Kthxbye
VOTE: Brandi

PEdit: Both Kthx and Brandi need rope. Bitmap's slot is a strong third choice.

I'm really not sure what Ank is referring to with OMG CAN'T BELIEVE I MISSED THAT; probably Voided's post that was in between these two posts, but that's really not the point. Point being... either he read Brandi's posts (as he implies in the first post) or he didn't (as implied in the second one). Can't have it both ways. At the very least he's certainly caught in a lie, but I think there's more to it than that. The way he suddenly switched stances here reads incredibly disingenuous.

Andy's reaction is also weird to me, just with the way he hopped on and off and on and off again. But he's right about Ank and I think we got the same vibes around when he hopped off the Brandi wagon the first time so /shrug for now. I'm mostly just noting that he let me pressure him into getting back on Brandi before thinking for himself again... I'm not really sure what to think of that as far as reading it as scummy or towny yet, but I trust Pie (or if he's dead, I guess maybe Kise) to take care of him for me in the event I'm flipped and Andy lives on and on like the energizer bunny. <3

AD is still scum and I haven't forgotten about him, it's just that I got tired of the wagon not going anywhere and I wanted to shake things up a little. I hope everyone has noted his falling back into lurkmode once the initial pressure on him wavered and he realized he wasn't in immediate danger, though.

I'm kinda bleh on zepher too after the general fence-sitty feeling of a few of his reads in that last big post (although at least he didn't take the brandi bait) but I'll be damned if I'm voting on a wagon started by popp, sooooo... :/

The bolded parts show that you were fine with Zephyr's reaction ; you imply he's a-okay in your book for not taking the Brandi bait. You also throw in that you don't want to vote with popp as a reason for not wagoning Mr. Z.

Good stuff.

Oh come on. That's the third game in a row where i see scum be lynched, and the next day, there's a wagon forming on one the people that led the previous day lynch. I will not let this happen one more.

Vote: esuriospiritius

(To be honest, i see xRECK/PeregrineV more scummy, but replacement solidarity ftw)

Hedging and voting the obvtown.........

Yeah Brandi what gives

There is no logical reason for me to hate this post as much as I do. Ick.

If it's worth any consideration, I still think Bella could be scum via gut alone.

Other than that I am at a complete loss in this game... I need to actually catch up or something.

I don't like the way your suspicion of Bella developed. Started out with annoyingly asking the same question repeatedly as a form of active lurking, and now you're telling me you have no real reason for suspecting her and, surprise, you're still useless. No thanks.

This is the most impenetrable game I've replaced into in a long time.

Please regale me with your refreshing perspective and town-oriented, thoughtful gameplay. Or whatever my exact snark was last time I said that. In other news, 'regale' is rapidly becoming one of my favorite

ways to be condescending

words.

You know what, I'm going to claim too. There's very little point not to since the chances of me living to tomorrow is basically 0%.

I am Sivir, the Battle Mistress.

I towerhugged N1 and ended up taking FOUR damage. (I'm betting anything this was a scum hit.)
I auto-attacked ActionDan N2, and ended up taking two damage.

I only started with 7 HP, so I'm dead if anything with damage hits me.

My autoattacks deal two damage, but successfully hitting anyone with it means I attack twice instead (due to my passive). So my auto-attacks effectively do four damage.

As for abilities, I only have my E and Ultimate. My E negates the damage from the highest damage auto-attack targetting me during the night, and my Ultimate increases my auto-attack damage to three (effectively six) for that night and the night after. It can be used with an auto-attack on the same night.

Right now, P5 and I have a really strong combo going on. We can practically instagib anyone in the game tonight.

@Kise: Was that in response to me? If so, then is that your entire basis on Andrius-scum?

Okay. I suppose there's no point in considering you as a lynch target yet then. You probably shouldn't have claimed so fully though (E, specifically, in the event scum tried to off you alone)

The claiming, stahp, I don't like it one bit. Whatever strength lies in town coordinating seems mitigated by the free information you're giving scum. I am taking any of these claims with vast grains of salt, until a flip proves otherwise.

I feel uncomfortable sharing the note-taking I've been doing, since it's just too messy. Too many ifs and butts and I don't feel that's useful right now when the mood seems to already be directionless. So instead I'll just put some things out there that I can state with reasonable confidence.

• - Wagon analysis by Kthx in #1950 is not completely without merit, although he takes it a bit far considering his own wagon a counter-wagon, since it already existed at the start of that Day and the previous one.
  - So taking AD's wagon as a scum counter-wagon into consideration, I'm uncomfortable with Andrius' voting pattern, having switch off AD to Zepher at the end. However, his posts have read null, so do actions speak louder than words?
  - Similarly I'm uncomfortable with esurio's vote-sheeping and AD counter-wagon, especially when juxtaposed with her opinionated persona. Reasons for staying off Zepher wagon seem to revolve around a strange affection she's developed for me.
  - Counter-wagons or no aside, other people who gave me tingles at the end of Day 2 are - in no particular order - Bella, Brandi and ActionDan
  - Some of these names conflict with each other, so before it starts getting messy I'll keep it at that. If anyone wants more details, ask.

@popp: What are your overall reads looking like so far?

Bub Bidderskins - scummish
Bella - scummish/person of interest
PeregrineV - nullish/weak scum from Reckoner
Venmar - ?
TehBrawlGuy - townish
CF Riot - townish
InflatablePie - weak scum
Knight of Cydonia - weak scum from kdowns
d3x - townish
Andrius - weak scum/person of interest
Brandi - scummish/person of interest
Elscouta - nullish/weak scum from Bitmap
esuriospiritus - clownfuck/person of interest
Action Dan - ?/person of interest
Kise - ?
Kthxbye - weak town
Ankamius - ?

So as you can see, with about half of the list looking scummy I have some conflicts between players to iron out (ie. if A is going to be scum then B will have to become town). This is creating a lot of ISO'ing for me, along with the "?" players who I really haven't read enough of recently to read with any confidence.

I'd like to start concentrating on the people of interest, particularly Bella, Brandi and Andrius, as potential lynch targets. I'll elaborate on this as soon as I get time, and depending on where the game goes in the meantime. I leave the other two people of interest off this list because Action Dan feels scummy but a WIFOMy subject due to his wagon looking like a Zepher counter-wagon, and esurio being more disruptive clownfuck rather than a high value scummy lynch prospect.

Ick. Entire scumlist is fence-sitty, and scumlist sucks. Bella, Brandi, esurio (all of whom I have as town to varying degrees), Andrius (high content, though I've found a few of his posts scummy he's not nearly a top pick), and ActionDan (who you don't list a read of)....ick.

That's all well and good but having under 30 posts by day 3 in an 80 page game is pretty pathetic. Just because quantity doesn't equal quality DOESN'T mean that their posts have been quality ones. Nice misrep, though.


And on Esu: Because I was wrong about her. I'm not going to go back and repost our interactions for you. It's very clear that when she told me she was baiting, and explained it, I understood her point and believed her.

Still quite a switch based on very little... you were apparently only suspicious because esu was suspicious of you? I know you like OMGUS, but having no other reason for a vote at this stage is pretty lame.

Notes regarding the claims:

- I call bullshit on sivir AA dealing 4 dmg per hit. That doesn't look anywhere near the powerlevel of the other champions we have seen.
- I claim my part of responsability for the damage PeregrineV received that night.

Alt Fail

He claimed to be absurdly low on health (did he specifically say 1HP or am I imagining that?). If he lives a whole lot longer you have a right to be suspicious but as it stands this is pretty much just shitposting.

Updated suspect list: Elscouta and kthx are the only ones I presently want to lynch. Leaning scum reads include Andrius, Peregrine, AD, Venmar, popp.

[Cephrir]

That's through page 80, obviously. I should add Andrius is the weakest among my leaning scum spots and you could maybe add Kise to that list? I'm confused about him.

[Cephrir]

In case it wasn't clear, Ank's claim pretty much jumps him straight to prob town for me. He neither passed Go nor collected $200.

I would apologize for triple posting but quite frankly you're probably going to have to get used to it.

[Cephrir]

Page 81-present! Yay I'm real now!

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Panzer

This is getting ridiculous.

I dislike this vote, though I'm not entirely sure why. Panzer's alternating between defeatism and half-hearted trying doesn't strike me as enough to tip someone onto his wagon.

@MrZepher

Why the sudden vote switch onto Panzer?

It really shouldn't be that surprising. I decided I wanted Panzer's flip over Kthnx.

You know, aside from the fact that I've been debating switching to your wagon since I first voted KTB.
I took the opportunity to read through his ISO again and I found some things that made me think he could possibly be town.
The logical conclusion for me was to avoid that wagon until I have more information.

nice OMGUS though.

These two posts made me even less comfortable with the vote - the fact that he tried to slip the vote in without reasoning and then responding with this when chellenged seems really odd. Unlike the alleged scumslips earlier in the game, this one might actually be a scumslip.

- The cases against AD and Zepher are interesting, but not enough to pull me off Bitmap. Definitely worthy of further scrutiny, though.

Goddammit, I thought the deadline had passed...

unvote

, VOTE: MrZepher

I'd rather have a lynch over no lynch and I feel more strongly that the kthx spot is town.

I remain unconvinced that Zepher is scum.

..

Andy?

Eh. I originally quoted this to agree with it but now that I look again I don't think Bella's posts are actually contradictory.

I don't have to answer your questions if I think you're scum. That's a thing, right?

hahahah no

Also, why did you say, "I expect better from you"?

I had (emphasis "had") a slight town read on you. With your reactions to my questions though, I'm not so sure anymore.

Pretty sure you've been part of the crowd telling me all my votes sucked.

You're

voting

me! and you don't even know what I've said and what I haven't...?

I'll tell ya what. You find an example of me telling you your votes sucked, I'll self-vote. You don't, I'm voting you for having a clearly fabricated read on me.

You have until the next time you post, so none of this pussyfooting around "nananana I'm being obstinate and making you wait" bullshit. Got enough of that in this game from popp.

I don't know why I'm bothering to quote esurio every time she makes another town post anymore, I think my standpoint is pretty clear.

MrZ's early read of him, their huge lack of interaction pretty much all game, Ank leaving MrZ off of his original reads' list and then calling the case weak {while calling my points credible while I mostly was just building on the initial case}, reinforcing that he's antiMrZ Lynch due to the Wagoners, calling both AD and MrZ's Wagons Scum driven while having both leaning Scum {pretty damn fence-sitty, imo},

MrZ flat calling him Town and browbeating others for suspecting him, sitting on a nonWagon while the Day runs out, then pushing a CounterWagon while deadline gets much closer {still not giving any reasons why he doesn't liek the MrZWagon, yet repeating that he just doesn't}

, ...and again, showing last minute support for the tertiary ADWagon, his bland jump to the MrZ Lynch, "I'm beyond shocked that I'm even alive", clearing me super early Today for my interactions with MrZ while damning Kthx for theirs', and gut.

...damn, that's a lot more annoying to read than I intended. That's what I get for multitasking while building a case. I can go back and source anything upon request.

Sorry for party rocking, guys...

Bolded are my favorite points (and the ones that I think stand up against Ank's defense, which I won't bother quoting). But, again, there isn't much point in focusing on Ank right now.

and god forbid I comment my thoughts on things relevant to the game?
Esu's town votes on her are bad so I will say such
I agree with Esu that Popp is a good vote and will say such
I am playing this game
you want me to not say anything to or related to a certain player
you are literally insane

Seriously girl. You were just accused of snapping at anyone who questions esurio, to which your response was initially "you can't even read" followed by you lterally admitting to have done exactly that.... I don't understand you. Here's a better defense: "Yes, and how does that make me scum?" See that took me 5 seconds to think up.

I shouldn't have to do your work for you, Ank.
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 3#p4839603
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 9#p4840169

Note esu's feelings for you and Andy.

So, in summary, I stated a couple of times that Zepher might be possibly scum, then voted because a deadline was coming up whilst stating I was unconvinced he was scum. This, apparently, is contradictory?

lol.

While I had a mild suspicion of him, it never progressed beyond a mild lean-scum. It's pretty much the definition of "unconvinced he's scum". It's the kind of read I wouldn't throw a vote on if I didn't have to, because it wasn't solid enough to justify it. I am mildly confused as to why you think this is an issue.

You had/have one strong suspect in Bitmap and I can't tell who else you may have viewed just as strongly, but Zephyr looks like one of your next best choices based on what I quoted. You had to have at least considered Zeph could be scum after pointing out what you thought was a slip. The way D2 turned out, you ignored his wagon for a large part of it, only saying the cases were interesting. Due to replacements and a new deadline, you finally came around to putting on a vote when Zeph was L-3, and around these parts, late votes on scum look bussy.




ALSO I remembered more of why I'm skeptical of esu
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 2#p4858092

With no claim from Zeph and AD's nofucksgiven-hammer AND with 40 mins til deadline [breath] this vote made me think of someone who was sure of Zeph not being a mislynch. I've never seen anybody make a 'just in case' vote on someone who's flipped town - And it wasn't as if Zeph was a suspect of yours either. For me, the biggest thing is that Zeph didn't get a claim in and the L+1 vote would have been really smug if not for him flipping scum..it may still be smug, actually. You didn't suspect him, as I pointed out.

Bella's late vote doesn't look very bussy to me but I can at least see where you're coming from on that. Your point on esurio, on the other hand, is just atrocious. What would ever be wrong with being scum about lynching scum, and I also don't see how it's remotely smug. I also want to note that AD did hammer without giving any fucks, I somehow missed this fact. I assume it was probably really close to deadline though.

Back to this:
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 1#p4880511

And looking at these quotes->

Zeph why would you vote me? All I want to know. DYING to know.

I have no real established opinion on you or your play. You seem town enough that I'm not going to go out of my way, but it's not a solid enough read that I'll work to defend it.
I was also pointing that out to see if anyone tried to convince me. Nobody did. It's really a non-issue.

Andy's vote is shit.
Kise's vote is sassy.

I have the biggest suspicion that the scum are plotting my demise.

They're working on something..Something BIG. No way they just let me off the hook like that. I said nothing at all when I voted Zeph and here he shrugs me off again for the null player I am. How do you not even give an opinion on someone voting you for no reason? I'm left wondering what the plans for me are.

Actually now that I think about it Esurio has been doing a good job of derailing town whenever she's involved... will read into this.

hmmmmmmmmmmmm so confused on how to interpret

Wut

This post sucks... bolded seems like you're setting up pre-emptively to have an excuse for OMGUSing the first few people who vote you? And the last sentence doesn't do it for me despite the fact that I've probably said something similar at some point.

Man I just realized how ironic this is.

I wanted to kill Ankamius last night...
...and saved him.

Funny how these things work out.


I'll elaborate if you want me to but suffice to say I read Zepher's stuff after the flip and was like K GONNA SHOOT KISE OR ANKAMIUS based solely on Zepher. And so I sent my action in and didn't give myself the chance to secondguess the decision the rest of N2.

Town logic.

Anyone willing to lynch scum KoC or scum bub yet?

Are you going to say literally anything that you didn't say Day 2 today? Are you even reading the thread?

hey kthx

esuriospiritus (2): CF Riot, Elscouta
CF Riot (2): InflatablePie, esuriospiritus
Bella (2): Kise, Brandi
Kise (2): Andrius, Ankamius

Can you tell me (or remind me if you've already said) what you think about these 4 wagons? I can appreciate your frustration for having scumreads that no one seems to want to vote with you on, but it would help if you'd comment more on the other stuff that's going on, too.

also disclaimer: I am drinking tonight. I probably have better things to do than post here, but just in case I don't I officially blame any lack of clarity on alcohol.

junk
junk
meh
meh

Condescending snark that implies you're useless goes here.

Pg24

This stands out:

Where is d3x?

Why?

Zephyr’s last d3x mention is a scumread on him in 399.
D3x next content posts are 407 and 408, neither of which talks to or about Zephyr, and Zephyr neither responds to or about d3x until 577.
I see nothing between there that mentions or references d3x except kthxbye (412, 430) TBG (469), Bella (513).
If Zephyr has a scumread on d3x yet doesn’t interact with him or reference his posts, but wants to hear from him 7 pages later?

Vote: d3x

A solid exploration of the anomaly I noticed. Thank you for not dismissing it as too weird the way I did and actually taking some time to lay that out, I am somewhat convinced.

@Knight of Cydonia: Do you have anything for us?

Nope.

Listen. I hate you.

VOTE: KoC

it would be one thing if only one person in this slot was acting like this, but that's two people lurking in the same slot now and expecting to get a free ride because "townslip."

I'm not so sure anymore.

This is disturbingly fair.

@Knight of Cydonia: Do you have anything for us?

Nope.

UNVOTE: Kise
VOTE: Bella

I'm not going to vote for anyone active until the general activity level picks up to passable levels again. There's so many lurkers that killing active people isn't going to solve anything (even if we hit more scum). Half of the playerlist is barely contributing.

Too much of a free pass for the active players. Even if we are going to lynch a lurker or two please don't ignore everyone else in the meantime.

Anyone willing to play ball with me?
Anyone at all?

You have my sword.

VOTE: Bella

And my bow!

vote KoC

And my ax!

vote: KoC

I love all of you. <3

I picked Bella because she's #1 on the list.

Laaaaaaaaaaaaaaazyyyyyyyyyyyyy

At least pick a scummy lurker ffs

Also awfully convenient that she already has a couple votes on her =/

If we lose because we lynch lurkers, then town didn't deserve to win this anyway.

This plays some part towards my reasoning for preferring Bella lynch over KoC lynch.

Actually this post is so bad it deserves a

Vote: pieceofpecanpie

.

Really? The "let's lynch a lurker choice" among Bella/KoC is Bella? Can anyone that has looked at their posting history pretend such an absurdity?

I appreciate that Elscouta isn't going for Bella (who's targeting him) even though he has an easy chance to do so. But at the same time, doing so would be kind of overtly scummy, especially if Bella were to flip town.

I find extremely surprising that Bella is getting wagonned by the "anti-lurker" crusade. Among all the people there, she is the one with probably one of the best signal-to-noise ratio, and a decent posting rate. I suspect there is quite a few scum involved in this wagon looking for an easy ride.

Bella was one of the least active people for half of the game.

Pretty sure Elscouta meant compared to the other lurker types. When I've posted, I've done more than just post a single sentence fragment plus "will catch up later".

In fact, if you check my ISO, you will see that there are a number of fairly long posts that in the hands of some other people in the game would be broken down into 2 or 3 or more posts. I advice checking the content of the posts made by players in this game instead of measuring by quantity, because I bet that you'll find more game related content in my infrequent posts than some more spammy members of the game.

Alright, I've changed my mind about Els. Those are some pretty town posts.

As much as I'm loathe to move away from the strongest scumread I had, ElScouta's picked it upover the last couple of days.

Honestly, I kinda prefer Action Dan as a lynch right now. Look at his recent post history. Short, relatively content-free and always promising more later and not delivering. Among the lurker types people want to get rid of, he's the most lurkerish and the one who seems to be putting the least effort into the game. It's fair to describe his contribution as coasting, which is the scummy kinda inactivity.

Not entirely sure I'm convinced by the attempted PoPP wagon push from Brandi. I mean, I understand and kinda agree with Esu's stance on him, but Brandi just kinda sheeped onto it kinda suddenly and hasn't really tried to develop it. It'd certainly be a better alternative than choosing between KoC and me, though.

Eeeeeeh. While Elscouta is at least making an effort finally, I don't think those posts are particularly town.

You're like, playing jungle warwick. You spent

D1 and D2

the first fifteen minutes in the jungle autoattacking all the creeps to death because you can't be bothered to

vote

use any other abilities. That's too much work. And you want someone to

GIVE YOU someone to vote

leash the big camps because its just easier that way. So after fifteen minutes you finally get your ult and despite your lanes calling for

you to actually vote and/or play the damn mafia game

ganks you just sit in the jungle and autoattack more creeps because hell, the lanes are failing so there's no need to go in there and die too.

predit: OH HEY LOOK YOU SUSPECT ACTIONDAN.
THEN MAYBE YOU SHOULD VOTE HIM?
idk that might help form a wagon or actually convey your scumspects to other people but hey that's work and i dont want to push you to actually play the game like the rest of us
maybe you're Win Later and I'm Win Nao and I have to wait

till fucking lylo

half an hour for you to be ready to help but goddamnit if you don't expect me to try in the meantime

The frustration reads as genuine, just like it did wrt Panzer.

I want this Venmar lynch, though. All of the votes he's made have been opportunistic as fuck (tunneled the shit out of Panzer in an obviously unfair way), defends Brandi and esurio in half-hearted, white-knighty ways, plays the "I can't large game card" to excuse no content... He's a beautiful, beautiful lynch with the bonus that t

own Venmar is easy as all hell to pick up on.

Would you care to expand on the bolded?

Well.... okay.

I've been lurkish and bored with this game cause i've started to have a problem keeping up like I said, so no wonder my actions are half-hearted, doesn't change the fact I think Brandi and Esurio were and are town.

I can't defend against your case though, so i'm at your mercy master.

ehiuwrehvgoibqgopqwkoefmn

Even though these lists are kind of stupid I'm doing one anyway quickly just to organize my thoughts.

Bella: Leaning town. Actually contributes occasionally. If we're lynching someone just for lurking, seems like a poor choice.
Venmar: Leaning scum. Only a few issues with him until post 2244 which is in the top 3 worst posts I've read in this game outside of Bitmap.
Brandi: Town. Talked this to death already.
Knight of Cydonia/kdowns: Neutral, I guess. KoC's deliberate? uselessness might be scummy, I'm not sure.
PeregrineV/xRECKONERx: Neutral. Didn't like Reck, Peregrine is doing okay.
Ankamius: Scummy, but dat claim. If he's somehow alive in 2 days I'll start worrying about him again.
d3x: Neutral. Would have said leaning town before Peregrine's solid points.
kthxbye: Scum. Talked this to death already.
CF Riot: Leaning town. Mostly held over from early stuff as nothing has stood out from him lately.
Nexus/Esuriospiritus: Town. Not even close.
InflatablePie: Leaning town. Useless early, spurt of usefulness that I liked quite a bit, back to useless.
NachoMamma8/TehBrawlGuy: Leaning town. Neither player has given me cause to think otherwise.
Elscouta/Bitmap: Scum. Bitmap was insane and insanely scummy, and Elscouta is only a bit better.
Kise: Leaning scum. Has rubbed me the wrong way too many times.
Andrius: Neutral. Only the convenient Bella vote really bothered me recently.
ActionDan: Neutral, but wins the other useless award. If we're lynching for sheer suckage, it's this guy or KoC.
pieceofpecanpie: Leaning scum. Haven't liked him at all outside of the Zepher case.

I'm gonna vote under the assumption deadline will be extended and worry about compromising later.

Vote: Elscouta

[Cephrir]

I know. I had him among my top suspects before that, and he climbed back up after I gave him a million points for the Zeph case. Basically I feel like he's been really scummy all the time, except for one shining moment of win. It's not sufficient to exempt him- he could easily have expected that not to culminate in a lynch and been shooting for town cred down the line. It's definitely something I'm struggling with.

[Cephrir]

Sounds like you want a list. Fine, that just seems like such a noob thing to do. Yes, I did decide to move d3x up just now.

Towniest to scummiest:

Nexus/Esuriospiritus
Brandi
InflatablePie

NachoMamma8/TehBrawlGuy
CF Riot
Bella
d3x

Andrius
PeregrineV/xRECKONERx
ActionDan
Knight of Cydonia/kdowns

pieceofpecanpie
Ankamius
Venmar
Kise

kthxbye
Elscouta/Bitmap

[Cephrir]

I should note there are sizable gaps between each group division except for green/black.

[Cephrir]

I know. I had him among my top suspects before that, and he climbed back up after I gave him a million points for the Zeph case. Basically I feel like he's been really scummy all the time, except for one shining moment of win. It's not sufficient to exempt him- he could easily have expected that not to culminate in a lynch and been shooting for town cred down the line. It's definitely something I'm struggling with.

That does not make sense.

I made the opening vote on Zepher and when the wagon was stalled I made my #1630, which not only restated my desire to see Zepher lynched, but added to my case. You quoted that post yourself and agreed with it, so I don't get how you can still seemingly be saying that I accidentally set up a lynch on my scumbuddy?

I wanted him lynched the whole time! At no point did I slink away with egg on my face, figuratively saying

"oh god what have I done?"

. I found him scummy, he got lynched and flipped scum, that's a mighty good thing in my books.

If you'd re-read the bullshit esurio's been spinning about me and compare it to what I've

actually

been doing, then perhaps you can reconcile more easily with the fact that I made a case on a now confirmed scum before anyone else considered suspecting him. From there it shouldn't be too hard for you to conclude what alignment I most likely am.
.

"Look how town I am" is not a convincing argument. Especially when you argue it by pointing out something I have demonstrated I'm fully aware of. Bolded: Well no shit, why on earth would you do that if you were scum and basically ensure your lynch right afterwards? It should be clear at this point that I don't think esurio's points are bullshit and in fact take her opinion very seriously.

[Cephrir]

Like you literally responded to my point by saying exactly what I just said as though it were new information. You say "that does not make sense" like my post wasn't coherent when in fact it was.

[Cephrir]

So I'm scum because I'm too townie (which is a deliberate technique because I'm replacing someone sooooooooooo scummy, an opinion that was held by literally no one but you) and because my read on you progressed as I read the thread? And you also expect me to believe that the one slot you have been calling one hundred percent scum all game might be town because of KoC not caring even though kdowns plainly didn't care either? Lol, okay.

[Cephrir]

At first, I'm town and even more town due to Z being scum. By the end of his catch-up posting, I'm 1 of 2 top scum reads.

Not to mention that what you said about my read on you progressing literally isn't even true... I've been calling you scum since Day 1, I just mentioned that you get 'a few town points' for the Zepher thing... are you high?

[Cephrir]

Don't worry, if you haven't gotten more votes within a day or two I'm switching to Venmar

[Cephrir]

Bella: Leaning town. Actually contributes occasionally. If we're lynching someone just for lurking, seems like a poor choice.
Venmar: Leaning scum. Only a few issues with him until post 2244 which is in the top 3 worst posts I've read in this game outside of Bitmap.
Brandi: Town. Talked this to death already.
Knight of Cydonia/kdowns: Neutral, I guess. KoC's deliberate? uselessness might be scummy, I'm not sure.
PeregrineV/xRECKONERx: Neutral. Didn't like Reck, Peregrine is doing okay.
Ankamius: Scummy, but dat claim. If he's somehow alive in 2 days I'll start worrying about him again.
d3x: Neutral. Would have said leaning town before Peregrine's solid points.
kthxbye: Scum. Talked this to death already.
CF Riot: Leaning town. Mostly held over from early stuff as nothing has stood out from him lately.
Nexus/Esuriospiritus: Town. Not even close.
InflatablePie: Leaning town. Useless early, spurt of usefulness that I liked quite a bit, back to useless.
NachoMamma8/TehBrawlGuy: Leaning town. Neither player has given me cause to think otherwise.
Elscouta/Bitmap: Scum. Bitmap was insane and insanely scummy, and Elscouta is only a bit better.
Kise: Leaning scum. Has rubbed me the wrong way too many times.
Andrius: Neutral. Only the convenient Bella vote really bothered me recently.
ActionDan: Neutral, but wins the other useless award. If we're lynching for sheer suckage, it's this guy or KoC.
pieceofpecanpie: Leaning scum. Haven't liked him at all outside of the Zepher case.

I'm gonna vote under the assumption deadline will be extended and worry about compromising later.

Vote: Elscouta

For the short version of my list-reasons. If you want the full version, well, you'll have to read my catch up posts =P

Though some of Sajin's questions are a little weird, so far so good.

Not sure how Els could have possibly forgotten the most important thing popp has done in the entire game. Not saying I think he pretended to forget but rather that not paying attention is scummy. Likewise I find it townie when people pay enough attention to notice contradictions (see: Sajin), especially distantly spaced ones, though I personally am not usually observant enough to pick up on these.

[Cephrir]

The Ank question (he's already explained his position stupid though it may be), AD (because I misunderstood the question), and Venmar (I feel like a lot of people did this, why specifically ask him).

[Cephrir]

d3x, it sounds like you play with kthx often. Have you ever been scum together?

With Kise having switched my vote is now useless.

Unvote
Vote: Venmar

[Cephrir]

Anyone with a vote outside of Bella, Sajin and Venmar, it would be nice if you could make a remotely useful vote.

[Cephrir]

Sajin seems to be somewhat useful, so I think we should give him a chance to give us actual reads on that slot. Not to mention it's pretty clear that wagon isn't happening.

[Cephrir]

Not planning on telling us your other abilities?

[Cephrir]

I'd like to hear a fullclaim and also a claim from Bella. Feast obviously does something interesting or you wouldn't have pushed the lane N1 (unblockable damage?). ActionDan's logic is indeed bad. Welcome to mafia, it turns out Vanilla Townie is less powerful than Cop. This game is admittedly atypical but I don't think we can expect all roles to be on the same power level, I mean look at Ank's claim, that shit be cray.

Though I can't actually deny the all tanks/ADCs theory (except to point out the dead supports), I think it's a silly assumption.

As far as the number of roleblockers go. On the one hand, that is a lot of roleblockers. On the other, there are a lot of CC abilities in League of Legends that couldn't be much else, not to mention I think Kthx is scum anyhow.

I'd air a little on the side of the claim being truthful, though again, I'd like to hear the rest of it. That just doesn't necessarily mean Venmar is town.

[Cephrir]

So just got back from my friends I've been MIA for a few days. I'm willing to move my vote over before the end of the day to be more useful but right now I'm not 100% how I feel about the Venmar vs AD interaction.
On the one hand I do think part of AD's logic is bad- but I also get a bad gut feeling about Ven mentioning his targeting of VoidedMafia with his abilities since that's a townie that is dead. He also never pursued Voided at all or voted him. Though I do admit he replied to one of VM's posts negatively D1.

This is a good point. VM seems like a really random target who can't confirm or deny whether he was actually roleblocked. Convenient as fuck.

Oh yeah, that bear thing was Venmar's doing.

This changes everything.

I don't know why you're getting so defensive about how you so "clearly" prefer a Bella lynch to Venmar after this post in which that doesn't sound like the case at all.

This is utter HORSESHIT. I never soft claimed any fucking volibear claim. That joke I made was when I still had a bear for an avatar, that was the joke, punning my own avatar, not volibear you opportunistic shitheads.

Go ahead and put my head on a pike, but when I flip as a blue team Cho'Gath, you'll be sorry. My wagon is bad, and Bella should be lynched, NOT ME.

I blocked VM cause I thought she was scummy. My block+AA damage didn't kill her, or else there would've been two deaths...

I dont get why people are saying this is a townie reaction. What he says about the softclaim, though, is true I think. Obviously I never saw this alleged avatar but his next post refers to it in a way that seems to imply that's what he was talking about. I saw both the 'eat' softclaim and the bear one as I was reading and was confused (because I thought bear was a softclaim), and I remembered that Volibear's W bites an enemy so I figured that's what it meant but I guess I can believe this... basically what I'm saying is we shouldn't lynch over this, I still prefer the Venmar lynch but this reason isn't very good.

That reaction is town.

unvote

vote: Bella

I don't really think it is. AtE flipping out and giving up is certainly something I've seen from town and scum alike, though I can see why Brandi would like it and that opinion sees consistent with her play.

@ Venmar

AtE, anger, indignant rage, call it what you will, but considering your involvement in this game it's pretty unjustified.

If anything you should be kicking your own arse for contributing so little, beyond actually a post that can be alluded to Volibear and then a post claiming Cho. It hasn't really taken a Sherlock or Poirot to create a speculative link out of that, and no one can really counter it with a

"nu-uh Venmar has totally been doing town stuff here, here and here"

. So what have we got to go on, your good standing within this game?

Having said all that, I'd be willing to give you the benefit of the doubt in that I haven't seen you derp something like that in the past, so find it unlikely that you'd accidentally do so here. And I'd much rather lynch Bella over you and I believe others should feel the same, especially after the way the last few posts have unfolded, but I'm not against switching over to you to ensure a lynch does go through.

"i'll give you the benefit of the doubt because I haven't seen you fuck up before"... what. If Venmar flips scum this post seems bad.

Vote: Nexus

What the fuck is this? I would say it seems like you're trying to distract us from the wagons at hand, except this vote is so obviously silly that no one could possibly be distracted by it. Just... what?

Partially because Venmar's been looking more town in the past couple pages and Bella has been looking scummier since the beginning of D3.

Buuuut, I feel there's more information to be had in a Bella lynch. Bella-scum means Venmar is most likely town (and scum was part of that jump), while Bella-town means that the primary people promoting the Venmar wagon (Nacho/d3x iirc offhand) are likely town, as well as reinforcing my early town read on Sajin (kdowns slot) for #2441. No real change on Venmar in that instance.

Venmar scumflip lessens my scumread on the people suddenly attacking him, but the entire thing was weird enough (and he had been a primary focus of attention while attention on Bella had been waning) that I could see scum bussing pretty easily as well. Venmar townflip just means I still have a scumread on Bella and the people who suddenly switched to Venmar for the lol-volibear-softclaim.

I can admit the way this wagon is developing makes me a little uneasy. It has both my top scumreads on it, for one thing, but I feel like they could be bussing in the hopes that Bella will be lynched anyway.

"For the information" is kind of a dumb reason at this point. Especially because I feel like we get a lot of info from either flip at this point.

These last few pages make me a little less excited about the Venmar wagon, not that I loved it to begin with, but I still think Bella is town. I really wish we had time to run up my top suspects and/or ActionDan.

[Cephrir]

Bella 9 (Venmar, Ankamius, Andrius, pieceofpecanpie, InflatablePie, Kise, CF Riot, Brandi, PeregrineV)
Venmar 7 (Nachomamma8, Elscouta, Cephrir, ActionDan, kthxbye, d3x, Bella)

Useless votes 2 (Sajin, Nexus)

[Cephrir]

This incoming Andrius post interests me. A lot of players I think are town are voting Bella and I don't quite understand why.

[Cephrir]

I could prolong Ank's life by one night (and only one night, because my predecessor made bad choices), but I think there are better uses for me tonight.

I think having everyone just AA their scum reads is okay. What's the argument for only having a particular set? So we know anything outside that group was done by scum? I could see townies disobeying the plan because everyone becomes a lunatic when they get vig powers etc etc.

@Kise- I think one person might have but that didn't account for everything?

[Cephrir]

I don't understand the point of this list but you should add kthx to it

[Cephrir]

No we're not, it's 7-8, my VC was wrong and your counting is wrong even if you took my VC as correct.

Bella 7 (Venmar, Ankamius, Andrius, pieceofpecanpie, InflatablePie, CF Riot, PeregrineV)
Venmar 8 (Nachomamma8, Elscouta, Cephrir, ActionDan, kthxbye, d3x, Bella, Brandi)

Useless votes 3 (Sajin, Nexus, Kise)

[Cephrir]

Unless my VC was even more wrong than I realize- I think my only mistake was failing to note AD's unvote.

[Cephrir]

I'm assuming Ank gets to do his damage tonight even if he dies but having Bella ult him seems like a good plan.

Nacho you can't just throw CF Riot in there out of left field.

[Cephrir]

Oh, good. Why didn't we do this sooner?

Vote: ActionDan

Now to actually read the intervening pages.

[Cephrir]

Brandi we have 32 minutes what the fuck are you doing

[Cephrir]

I'm leaving and there is not much chance I'll be at a computer before deadline. But there is a slight possibility.

[Cephrir]

Hm. I think we probably need everyone to check in before we potentially go lynching d3x, even if he's scum we want to know if someone claims to have saved him somehow. I'm a little surprised Venmar is gaining steam already today seeing as he was something of a compromise lynch yesterday, though to be fair I could see the move onto AD being scum-driven (not much point speculating about this until we know Venmar's alignment). For now I'm going to do the thing I can definitely do regardless of all this night shenanigans, and I'll possibly move later once the night shenanigans are cleared up.

Vote: Elscouta

[Cephrir]

Obviously he wants me to claim two different roles, one in each wave. Duh.

The order seems good and unbiased.

On d3x vs. Venmar: Venmar's story doesn't make a ton of sense to fake unless he thinks he's definitely getting lynched today and wants to take someone down with him. But he is scummier than d3x independently, so given a binary choice I'd pick Venmar.

[Cephrir]

CF, you do make a decent point but I think part of it is the way the wagons formed yesterday. The Bella wagon stuck for quite a while and it took forever to switch to Venmar, but the Venmar wagon collapsed in zero seconds flat. This did have a lot to do with the deadline, I suppose. I felt like Bella was always a compromise wagon anyway, and though there is some legitimate suspicion of her with the new day everyone can go back to what they actually wanted to do.

And as we've discussed the claim is confirmable, whereas Venmar has the night shenanigans which seem to present us with a dichotomy (that means binary choice right? I'm not actually sure).

[Cephrir]

Also, Brandi...

That reaction is town.

unvote

vote: Bella

What changed?

[Cephrir]

it's ok brandi.

Just never let them lynch you.

I must say that I'm amused andrius has the audacity to suggest a AA list of the all the town-reads that Ank has.

WOW. Andrius.

WOW.

YOU ARE LITERALLY COUNTER CLAIMING VENMAR.

At this point I just want Ven/Andy dead. :/
All of this orchestrating of derailing the ven wagon tastes horrible to me.

unvote

vote: Venmar

Im not lynching AD -_-

It seems like you had a change of heart sometime yesterday but you never really commented on Venmar between that post and this one.

[Cephrir]

As in, if you are scum about to be lynched, you want to give the town as little information as possible. As such with Ven.

Reasonable explanation but I wish you'd mentioned it yesterday.

Ank vote is pointless and stupid. I've also been reading him as more town since my entry.

Secondly, I'm not too impressed by Ank's empty-headed vote in #2847, but what caught my attention the most is that Brandi immediately followed that post without an eyebrow raised and put a vote on Venmar. This is the same Brandi that kept crowing for either Bella or myself yesterday and made her sheeping intentions perfectly clear through both actions and words. So here's a perfect opportunity to sheep someone voting me and... nope, doesn't take it. Why? This kind of inconsistent play does not read town.

Now since she's posted a lot since then I need to read - rather then skim - the rest of it and see where this is going. But a renewed

Fos @ Brandi

nonetheless.

You were plainly not getting lynched yesterday. Not a fan of "FoS Brandi for lazy reasons oh and I should probably read your posts".

Hi Nexus! Good of you to drop in! What is your opinion on literally anything at all ever?

[Cephrir]

^^I'm pretty sure that was said Yesterday.

-----------------------------------------------

Anyway, I've been going over the MrZ Wagon progression and I'm not finished, but I'm convinced that Bella and popp are solid Town. I'll have the whole thing put together hopefully later tonight.

With popp, it's not just about the initial case {although that should be compelling enough}. He makes the case, everything dies down for quite a while, then popp comes back and makes another hard push at MrZ while people are losing focus. He puts the Wagon together multiple times.

With Bella, the deadline was approaching and the KthxWagon was almost neck and neck. She would've tied the Voting, but instead Voted MrZ, putting him out front and pretty much securing the last minute Votes would go there for the Lynch. The Vote itself is rather noncommittal and a bit fence-sitty, but the impact is pretty legit. After she moves over, the rest of the Votes fall into place quickly. It's not as solid as popp, but barring some horrendous turn of events, she's Town in my book.

I am also of the opinion that Brandi is Town {although nowhere near as strong of a read as the other two mentioned above}. Her Vote comes at a similar juncture as Bella's, only earlier. It also pushes the MrZWagon ahead fo the competing Kthx and AD Wagons.

I've touched on the popp point before. He got a lot of town points for being the driving force behind the Zepher lynch, but I have found pretty much every other thing he's done to be scummy. If it weren't for this I would probably be voting for him right now.

I fell like Bella's not the only one we could potentially apply your logic to, but your point is okay. I mean I didn't really think she was scum in the first place so it's not like I need to be convinced otherwise.

[Cephrir]

Attacking your best suspicion is protown. If you're town it's more likely to hit a scum than a lynch is. By your logic, I guess we should never lynch anyone?

[Cephrir]

If I see a post from Bella, Sajin or popp that does not contain either a claim or a specific objection to claiming I will vote them. Don't ignore the issue.

[Cephrir]

It's worth considering, I suppose. It looks like a lot of players ignored the shortlist last night though and I wouldn't be surprised if they continue to do so. If you don't look at it as a scheme and rather as an isolated action. ("I am town. I suspect X. Autoattack: X"). If we actually stick to the shortlist it's essentially equivalent to what you're suggesting. Ultimately the effect is that we get two lynches per day which seems pretty okay? I'm not sure how I feel about these plans slash giving away information on the whole, and I don't know that there's necessarily something wrong with everyone doing their own thing.

Additionally, why is nexus being allowed to provide zero insight and why has bella's wagon which was rapidly dropped for the AD wagon been completely forgotten? Many people have been allowed to damage people without providing much of any reasoning in the thread. The mechanics of this game have been played completely wrong imo.

Yeah, I'm not entirely sure why it's somehow okay to attack people you haven't expressed suspicion of. Unfortunately Nexus replaced obvtown and apparently thinks this means it's okay to skate by and not help.

[Cephrir]

*sigh*

Must we do this again?

[Cephrir]

Vigging one target versus a pool of several are functionally the same except that people get some choice, so there is less chance they will ignore the plan. I don't particularly care for the ORGANIZE EVERYTHING plan, but I'll go along with it if that's what we're doing.

I can't remember why I ever didn't think Andrius was town, but I no longer feel that way. And if anyone is getting a town leader hat, it's gonna be the guy who is already leading the town.

Brandi, please stop being emo. It makes people waste their votes on you and distracts us from lynching scum. Your emoness has generated all the tells from others that it is ever going to generate.

It looks like my third choice is getting votes. I am okay with this.

Vote: popp

[Cephrir]

It looks like my third choice is getting votes. I am okay with this.

Oh stop, you flatter me so. Of

all

the people lucky lil 'ol me is

third

on your list? What did I ever do to deserve such an honour? Oh yeah, that's right, I made an opening case of my scumbuddy Zepher and continued to promote his lynch, which you fully acknowledged and understood and then miraculously resolved into your continued misgivings about my scumminess with a magical wave of your "I-still-believe-this-to-be-so" wand.

So why aren't you up there promoting and championing the first and second on your list? Ah lazy wagon vote, I see.

I mean, if you ignore the fact that I opened the day voting Elscouta. I think my progression on you as I read the thread was pretty clear, so I'm gonna go ahead and say that your claim that I'm just ignoring that piece of evidence is a misrep.

You were plainly not getting lynched yesterday. Not a fan of "FoS Brandi for lazy reasons oh and I should probably read your posts".

Why, good sir, that comment about Brandi was something she did this very day, not yesterday. So me "plainly not getting lynched yesterday" is a completely irrelevant comment. Thus I'm not a fan of "make lazy assessment of PoPP's post with premeditated ideas in my head".

There is a way to correct me without being incredibly condescending for no reason.

I fell like Bella's not the only one we could potentially apply your logic to, but your point is okay. I mean I didn't really think she was scum in the first place so it's not like I need to be convinced otherwise.

If I see a post from Bella, Sajin or popp that does not contain either a claim or a specific objection to claiming I will vote them. Don't ignore the issue.

Side point: WTF @ short-spaced turn around on Bella?

Main point: Has Safin made a claim or specific objection? Well, yes several posts follow continuing discussion on the merits of claiming.
Has PoPP made a claim or specific objection? Yes, #2953.
Has Bella made a claim or specific objection? No.
Conclusion:

"Oh golly that pro-town Bella, 10 pages without a peep, I'll threaten her with votes and she'll respond. And yet, she hasn't responded. Oh well, better vote PoPP"

I didn't turn around on Bella, I still think she's town, but I was irritated by you (and Sajin iirc) ignoring the issue and decided my blanket statement should apply to her as well. You're stretching my words pretty hard here.

So after all that careful analysis and commenting by yourself lucky lil 'ol third-in-line me gets the vote. Well I must say, stellar stuff old boy. Top job. I'm reminded of someone who said something along the lines of that most of your big analysis posts read like you just quoting something and throwing a mostly unjustified slant of your own below it. I'll have to go digging, perhaps it was Kthx, nevertheless I agreed with that sentiment at the time and I'll publicly state so right now for the record.

So I'm not allowed to give my own opinion of things? Not to mention unjustified slants on others' posts is exactly what you just finished doing...

[Cephrir]

You should read the wall. It isn't very good.

[Cephrir]

[Cephrir]

All I really have to say about the last few pages is that anyone who suggests that top laners are now somehow immune from lynching now, or even that this could provide a shred of evidence in their favor, is dumb.

[Cephrir]

You're probably right, 3079. Hint: The scum is Elscouta.

In other news, kthx is improving.

[Cephrir]

It's not necessarily the case that one or the other is scum, but it is likely. I would suggest they be autoattacked but Venmar isn't very autoattackable, assuming he's claiming truthfully, which he probably is. I'm starting to like kthx for thinking outside the box all game, though he may at some points have locked himself out of the box and refused to go back in. I'd be down for lynching Venmar. He also, as has been pointed out, has the magical AD wagon against him. I know I've said this before, but Bella -> Venmar was like pulling teeth and Venmar -> AD took two seconds flat. Wow, did I just get persuaded by someone I thought was scum two pages ago? I guess I did.

That said, d3x has basically tunneled his vote on me for the past two day phases. This is setting off huge red flags like no other this game. Elscouta calling bullshit on my claim and completely dropping it directly after is making me really suspect he's not town-aligned either.

This is a good point.

CF, get with the program. Stop getting everything backwards.

[Cephrir]

*If* we're definitely going to lynch one of them, yeah. Though if last night is any indication, AAing d3x might not stick. I guess if it was a Zil or something they can't do it again, but if it was a redirect they might be able to, maybe. Even though this post sounds like I want to lynch d3x, I actually don't. I'm basically indifferent between Venmar and popp.

Why is anyone attacking kthx scum after you're dead o.O

[Cephrir]

p-edit B/c I'll flip Town, he's the driving factor to getting a Wagon built on me atm, numerous people have had him as a ScumRead for the vast majority of the game, and I've said some rather harsh things about his misrepping me and coming to weak/poorly thought out conclusions as of late. I still have him as a solid TownRead, though.

I don't see how that follows?

[Cephrir]

I don't think there's enough will to lynch popp today, especially with d3x vs. Venmar hanging over our heads.

Who else should have died and didn't?

[Cephrir]

Did someone actually claim to have attacked Ank?

[Cephrir]

There are quite a few of us unclaimed, but I really feel like any townie who saved d3x last night would have claimed it by now =/

[Cephrir]

Bella: Does you ult also prevent abilities from resolving (roleblocks, etc.) or does it just prevent damage?

[Cephrir]

Tired as hell and sick. Might get to this today, might not.

[Cephrir]

Why was Inflateable Pie redirecting Venmar bad?

If it was so bad, how come it's only seemed to have gotten a few eye raises and nothing else?

I honestly don't know how to answer this.

Pie made a questionable hammer Day 1, and this redirect move has a far amount of attached to it.

Yet I just don't know what to think about it all. Maybe that's also a symptom of Pie's "eh" attitude to these things - he doesn't spend much time justifying what he does - which just leaves me with uncertainties rather than reads.

Remind me this exists if either pastry flips scum.

Not really sure why we are going back to mass claiming but I am down with it with the following condition: Everyone comments about my vig voting proposition that I have been asking about in almost all of my posts today. If people want to keep ignoring it then I will refuse to claim. I am extremely frustrated and have felt like I am talking to a wall all day.

If you need a refresher because you are too lazy to go back and read:

I feel that voting for a specific vig target to do damage to essentially gives us an extra lynch. Yes, roles could potentially counter it. The downside of going down the road we are currently on is a lot of collateral damage done on townies which enables a lot of damage done on everyone allowing a coordinated scumgroup to have a better LYLO situation much sooner. I feel these "vig" votes could be conditional on the flip of the lynchee post twilight if we have that discussion. I feel like we should have night action discussion on top of vote discussion and it is just not happening. Discuss the pros and cons. Say it is a stupid idea but at least let me know about it rather than ignore it.




I also really like Riots analysis on Bella.

I've already responded to the idea, but just to reiterate my position is still that I don't really care; CF Riot makes good points against it in the next post I quote but I also see how we have a lot to gain from it.

Sajin the problem with your proposed plan is we can't monitor the actual night choices so there's no enforcement of the town's will. Even if a majority of us agree on a target, if it's scum scum obv won't shoot their own team, and even town may just disagree strongly enough to ignore that person and AA who they suspect more. You can still just do this if you feel strongly about it. It doesn't hurt us that much, although like I've said already scum can plan around things we broadcast in thread and it relieves them of accountability if the town appointed target is town. But really this is just a more structured version of being considerate of other people's reads in thread which has been our option all along. Nothing is stopping anyone from checking back over the thread and choosing an AA target based on some or all of the other players' voiced reads. All you're really saying is we should take the legwork out of it by bolding and tallying people's reads for everyone.

pedit: @Brandi, if you start a massclaim and don't finish it, scum already have plenty of info to plan around so that last little bit doesn't matter as much to them, but for town it leaves room for error by not seeing the full picture and also gives any scum who haven't claimed yet a chance to modify their role or action claims around what happens during the night. The pros of forcing scum's hand now outweigh the cons of a couple more outted townies when we've come this far and most of the town is out already.

Thought about it some and I think PoPP is very nearly conf-town. He claimed his action on Bella, and she has since confirmed it by claiming the 2 dmg he dealt to her. The train of logic is like this:

If PoPP is scum, after silencing Bella he would most certainly have had another member of the scumteam attack Ank in order to secure the kill.
If Ank was scum, PoPP-scum would not block a protective ult on his buddy.
Bella+PoPP scumteam is just super unlikely given all the claimed actions since it ultimately led to nothing. It would be an incredibly elaborate series of faked claims and interactions without a clear goal.

So given all that, I think PoPP is 99% town. I'm probably going to make a list soon. I'm sort of reevaluating all my reads.

I can explain Ank's survival last night. Details when I claim.

Popp/kthx/anyone with a scumread on me (speak up now): why would a scum player, whose buddy is under a slight bit of pressure due to not dying as planned, up and claim a redirect that ended up protecting said buddy, rather than not say anything and risk outing them both? If an actual, logical answer was given, do you truly believe this line of thinking is correct?

This is a hypothetical question, so "WIFOM" is not an acceptable answer.

Question can also be answered by Nacho or anyone else that's good at this game.

On the face of it I feel like Pie/d3x is unlikely for this reason. Though Pie redirecting Venmar to Kise at all seems rather strange (perhaps hoping this would get d3x lynched? Though in that case why claim it? And d3x did seem to be in trouble today, so I won't discount the possibility entirely)

We seem to have a choice between d3x and Peregrine, who keeps being referred to as "P5" even though he does not appear to have a 5 in his name. d3x claimed not to have used Meditate even though that seems to be precisely what happened. I'm still not 100% clear on whether we think Peregrine's math actually makes sense or not, and I think someone seemed to catch him forgetting how much damage his ult does?

[Cephrir]

I want a wagon, I want votes, I am not going to sit back and let multiple people be like "yeah pie is scum" without committing to a lynch.

Then I want people to look at my lynch and stupid shit like the AD wagon, and hopefully find scum.

Then if that doesn't happen, I'm going to laugh in the deadthread as town selfdestructs. I'm not being a part of this anymore if this is the level of play I'm dealing with.

I should honestly replace out, but I'd feel bad for the mods having to find so many replacements.

Pedit: 4 damage is a lot, you know. Also really? You think I'm scum, who is more scummy than me at the moment? Where is your vote?

P5 I really don't think you did.

The d3x wagon is sort of the you wagon by extension, seeing as the case against you pretty much hinges on you being scum with d3x.

[Cephrir]

Unvote, Vote Peregrine

[Cephrir]

We appear to have three or four now? roleblocks on the same team so it's not terribly unlikely imo.

[Cephrir]

So even if one of said roleblocks is scum we still seem to have a lot of them.

[Cephrir]

Alrighty then. I'm Blitzcrank. I have 11 HP, 1 AA damage, and am at full health.

Passive: Mana Barrier - Gives me a small shield, one time, if I get low. I don't remember how big off the top of my head.
Rocket Grab - Prevents other stuff from happening to my target. This ability has another element to it that I don't want to divulge right now, but let's just say it makes the ability weaker.
Ultimate - Static Field (passive ult) - anyone I target or who targets me takes one damage the night

after

this occurs. Yeah, this ult sucks.

Pushed the lane N1 and towerhugged N2. Early D3, before we made the plan to keep our AAs within a small group, I was planning to grab Brandi as she was the only one a lot of people suspected and I didn't. But then that plan rendered the idea moot. N3 I grabbed Ank on the off chance Bella was lying or got messed with (since if either of those things occured my ability would go through presumably). So Ank will be taking one damage tonight. If I'd realized the ult applies to my AAs as well I probably would have hit Elscouta, but it worked out I suppose.

Breadcrumb:

Using this post as a proxy for eveything that comes up to do with this. It seems like the suspicion just rolls off him after

the

inexplicably

magic

al claim (

it

seemed way too early to

call

that out willy-nilly

to

me

, by the way). Are we going to let everyone off the

hook

if they claim something mildly interesting? That's just going to happen almost every time someone claims, right...?

"The magic, it calls to me." I added "hook" to distinguish from Veigar. Fun fact: the sentence contains "rolls" because I was originally going for "a rolling golem gathers no rust" (good luck fitting that in without being obvious, lol)

I'm interested in hearing why Peregrine is town, Venmar, because I'm not seeing any town motivation for lying.

[Cephrir]

popp is the only one left who hasn't fullclaimed, FTR.

wrong pastry

[Cephrir]

oh wait i'm dumb. neither baked good has fullclaimed.

[Cephrir]

Do I really need to say I'm picking you? Come on.

[Cephrir]

Upon re-examination, my shield is actually a heal for 2 and is not necessarily one-time.

[Cephrir]

oh wait i'm dumb. neither baked good has fullclaimed.

Do I really need to say I'm picking you? Come on.

Not sure how this doesn't add up to "I want you to claim, popp." but I want you to claim, popp.

[Cephrir]

The PV thing is simple in my book. He lied about how much damage his ult deals. The other stuff doesn't matter so much for me though I can admit it's there. I'm probably going after Elscouta tonight unless someone claims an interest in nuking one of my townreads.

ipie, y u no fullclaim?

[Cephrir]

There's a big difference between lying about a role to get someone lynched (which town should never do but I can maybe understand) and lying about a role to gain an incredibly slight benefit when you know that if anyone learns of this lie you will be lynched for it. Still waiting on answers to kthx's last two posts. Die faster, please.

[Cephrir]

I took 1 damage. I did not use my 'get out of jail free' card as I stated I wouldn't Yesterday. I AA'ed Sajin.

Someone is a liar. I longed for the sweet embrace of death.

2 of My ScumReads Voting Venmar out of the gate? Suspicious...

Vote:Sajin

You should have taken 3 minimum (from me) based on what's been posted so far. If you don't have damage reduction or were protected, then someone was blocked or is lying.

This is you insisting, today, that you do 4 damage and someone else is lying as a result. If your ult did 2 damage, there is no explanation for you making this post.

[Cephrir]

popp blocked Bella. If he didn't and both of us got to target Ank, I don't know what would happen (If I had to guess I'd say the ult would get more priority).

I can't tell if your scumlist is serious, but it doesn't really sound like it? That's not helpful...

[Cephrir]

We should probably have Bella heal you or Kthx tell everyone who he's qing. Better yet have him q Elscouta and heals for everyone.

[Cephrir]

2562- Ceph likes the idea of Bella ulting you, but in the end uses something that would, in effect, prevent her ult from affecting you.

Bella ult blocks abilities, so I figured if she actually happened my ability would fail. But as I said before, if she didn't do it or scum tried to stop her in order to frame her, I would be insurance.

[Cephrir]

Venmar, I'd like to hear reasons for your suspicions. Some of those seem to be popping out of nowhere right now.

[Cephrir]

Yeah, agreed. I've read IPie as pretty town all game and I don't care nearly as much about night actions. He does have an explanation, it just kind of sucks. I'll agree with kthx on popp, though.

[Cephrir]

Let's worry about situational gut feelings after we lynch PV or Magua.

[Cephrir]

You know kthx, your VCA for days 1 and 3 assumes that anyone was in fact voting scum. Day 3 for instance- you're criticizing the AD wagon in a way that assumes Bella and Venmar are both scum? 'Cause otherwise that's pretty meaningless. And you have 15 players voting town at the end of day 1... that's most of the player list... do you expect townies to be perfect or something? Meanwhile the other 7 players get free passes because they're voting players who haven't flipped yet... gee, what a great assessment. Your "suspicion" of me and Venmar is lazy as fuck.

[Cephrir]

Cephrir,
No...my day 1 and 3 just include those known to be voting known town.

Where does day 3 assume bella and ven are both scum? I just listed those voting known town (again). I'm only putting facts on the board, assuming nothing at this point.

Are you telling me there is no value in seeing who was voting known town at the end of each day? Don't like that your slot is 1 of 3 all to be known voting town even during a scum lynch?

Why don't you like the facts being put out there in the open?

If I were a betting man, I'd say 1 of you 3 is scum. I'd place everything I own on that wager.

Because you're criticizing players who were on town when it's entirely possible everyone was on town. We need way more flips before that kind of analysis becomes useful.

Bold is a pretty ridiculous misrep. Get off your confirmation bias horse.

[Cephrir]

VOTE: Magua

PeregrineV is a big wildcard to me right now. On the one hand, lying about his ultimate's damage is really fishy. On the other hand, his explanation is giving me enough town vibes upon looking back that I'm not convinced with him being scum if that's the only real point against him.

I'd like to try gunning down d3x again tonight. If he died N4 and flips scum, PeregrineV should be considered a universal town read and everyone that protected him should be high on the lynch list. If he flips town, then everyone who protected him are most likely town. If he doesn't die at all, then I'd strongly suspect scum saved his ass.

I'm not particularly interested in seeing what PeregrineV is right now, since a d3x flip could pseudo-clear him. Gunning d3x down in the night phase looks more appealing than lynching him, so I'd like to get a general scumread out of here. I haven't bothered to look specifically for interactions right now, but the slot's been in the spotlight enough that there should be some good interactional tells no matter which way he flips.

Interesting propositions all over this post. Except for the PV townvibes.

[Cephrir]

In regards to night action plan, I have no useful night action except for my auto attack. Left to my own devices, and assuming I'm still alive, I'm attacking either CF Riot or Brandi, in approximately that order. Ankamius thinks Brandi is town; willing to listen to why.

Other than your spell, which just deals more damage than your autoattack....?????

[Cephrir]

If the PV wagon is going to die, damned if I'm not gonna try for my first choice.

Unvote
Vote: Magua

Here's an argument, for those of you who like those (I know I do).

Bitmap: I don't need to go into Bitmap in great detail, we all know he was the scummiest scum that ever scummed a scum. I will instead substitute IPie's analysis, which is still my favorite thing in this thread.

Spoiler: Bitmap

I was thinking we could all post what role our champion play so like the role of our role massclaim pretty early. It would prevent scum from switching fakeclaiming champions between each other which might be helpful in the future. But don't worry, I'll carry you all.

Also, I can dig the NL.

VOTE: No Lynch

The fuck is this shit.

I think InflatablePie and Reck are townish for now. I'm going by post count.

I think Brandi is null. She's been driven up a wall really badly and reacts weirdly.

Okay, I'll be totally honest. This is a clusterfuck. I have no idea what is going on. Stop posting shitty walls of texts that have no relevance to actual scumhunting. I can't be assed to read Brandi's novel.

With that being said, I think I'll vote kthxbye. He seems kinda iffy.

VOTE: kthxbye

Please just lynch someone gaise.

The fuck is THIS shit.

*Re-isos Panz*

I think his posting is weird with the whole willing to claim. However, it just seems like he has nothing to lose and doesn't care so I'm leaning null on him. If you can give me a really good reason to why to vote him, I'll move my vote. If you are town, I would suspect Brandi and Reck. If Panz is town, I would suspect you and Venmar. And yes, I think scum is bussing at this point considering we have around 22 players. And I don't know.

da fuq is dis shit

I really wish I didn't get a champion that benefits from being focused on.

I mean it in League of Legends speak. I benefit from being attacked (by scum). I'm bad at having a strong town presence and getting killed early.

Actually fuck it, I'm going to push the lane tonight. You guys can attack me if you want. I'm using my ultimate tomorrow as well.

Bitmap you're cute

Bitmap: What action did you do last night?

I pushed the lane. I just want to use my ultimate tonight and then I don't give a fuck if I get killed or lynched.

Good god Bitmap is utterly useless. I don't even.

Just a couple notes I want to make on Bitmap.
post 894- he claims he has a champion that 'benefits from being focused on'. I don't exactly know what that means but it doesn't really seem to line up with Elscouta's claim.
post 1243- "I just want to use my ult then I don't give a fuck if I get killed". What? Els's claimed ult is really underwhelming, so I don't see why Bit would be so excited about it. The only caveat I have is that his desire to die might fit with the Anivia passive, I guess?

So, here are my thoughts about what happened:

Initial Discussion on the no-lynch plan

Both parts of the plan were dumb. As it was stated by a few: whether someone should towerhug/pushthelane/use a night action should depend mostly about whether he feels the risk of dying is worth the action. And we don't discuss that. Then, as in any mafia game with a town controlled lynch, night is in favor of the mafia (or at least neutral). That's not "outguess the mod", that's "assuming the team of mods are not braindead chickens that will check that the mafia can *actually do something*". Thus, we want to have days between nights, and we don't no-lynch. That being said:
- Slight town points on the first that proposed the plan (ActionDan) and for those that rejected it first (CF Riot / VoidedMafia).
- Slight scum points on the sheeps. Significant scum points for overeager xRECKONERx "OMG THIS PLAN IS SO GOOD WE BROKE THE SETUP YOU ARE SO TOWN" as 3rd post of the game.

#77 Wait, wat? Looks like a complete bullshit way of launching a wagon.
#103 So, you are quoting someone implying he doesn't know the scum color, and you are concluding that he is scum. Without explaining why he would be faking his ignorance. That's bad.
#105 "dear Brandi, please understand that it looks like you are scum. <no vote>". Feels like scum trying to add momentum to a wagon without officially commiting.

The kdowns wagon

As already written above, this one is complete crap. Ignoring the color of the scum team is a

townslip

, not a

scumslip

. To make this even worse, some people were acting like "oh it's so obvious from the role PM". No it is not. Actually, from the role PM i got, there is no precision about whether i'm on the majority side, the minority side, or on a 50/50 battle.

#150 This one feels like someone that actually doesn't know the town PM doesn't really refer on being on the majority side.
#168 Oh another one that acts as if the role PM is enough to know it's not a 50/50 split.

FoS: xRECKONERx

. That's already two strikes.
#171 - #175 This kind of stubborness is often town-stubborness. Town points to both Bella and Venmar. On the topic of the debate, I'll say that i definitely don't find anything scummy in "Why would I out my teammates role".
#178 "Hey Scum, we will pretend that we will all towerhug tonight, despite it's obvious we will not, so please don't use your gank ability, despite it's obvious there is no reason not to".
#209 A pretty solid case on Brandi, with an underwhelming answer by Brandi.

<a bunch of shitposting. I guess people are enthusiastic by the theme of the game and want to mimic ingame chat>

#237 Well, actually it is worth responding to.
#289 One hundred times this.

KThxbye wagon

A solid wagon, that I 100% support. The crew on it is pretty decent too. On the other side, the Panzer wagon is awful, and strangely enough the crew on it is also awful (Brandi, Reck, KThxBye? wow). However it quickly stalls, despite people strongly advocating for him (with in my vision, pretty good reasons).

Panzer tilt

And suddenly Panzer goes on tilt, votes himself, and makes sure to get lynched. KK. Nothing much to read from there.

#876 Andrius gets town points for doing what looks a sincere defense of Panzer.

--

And there i'll have to apologize, as I don't really have time to finish a proper reread of day 2. However, from a quick skim:

- The Brandi stuff needs to stop. If possible by Brandi stopping to fill pages of whiny one-liners.
- KThxBye still needs to die, xRECKONERx is still a decent option.
- I'm not totally oppposed to Zepher lynch, but i don't find anything particularly scummy.

Vote: KThxBye

This seems to be the post Elscouta' suspicion of Reck starts in... but I guess his only two reasons are the third post of the game and thinking kdowns scumslipped? Everyone and their mother did the latter, and I can't believe he apparently never really found anything better. How is thinking the setup is broken even a scumtell? Els will continue to cling to this lazysuspicion throughout the rest of his time in the game.

Oh come on. That's the third game in a row where i see scum be lynched, and the next day, there's a wagon forming on one the people that led the previous day lynch. I will not let this happen one more.

Vote: esuriospiritius

(To be honest, i see xRECK/PeregrineV more scummy, but replacement solidarity ftw)

Voting obvtown esurio on some stupid principle when he apparently suspects Reck more, still for no discernible reason?

I know I'm part of the lurkers, but to be honest I doubt turning the game into "let's lynch people on the bottom of the post count" will motivate people even more.

On the lynch list:

KoC: Meh. I guess him on the kthxbye wagon yesterday makes him more tempting than the average lurker.
Bub: Same
Brandi: Town. Don't lynch
Venmar: No reason to believe he is scum. I consider not voting at deadline during a scum lynch a slight town tell.
Bella: Most likely town (few posts, but contentful + okayish timing on scum lynch). Don't lynch.
ActionDan: No big reason to believe he is scum. VoidedMafia that was voting for him yesterday ended up dead, but it's pretty small.

Note Venmar is apparently null here.

If we lose because we lynch lurkers, then town didn't deserve to win this anyway.

This plays some part towards my reasoning for preferring Bella lynch over KoC lynch.

Actually this post is so bad it deserves a

Vote: pieceofpecanpie

.

Really? The "let's lynch a lurker choice" among Bella/KoC is Bella? Can anyone that has looked at their posting history pretend such an absurdity?

Apparently our suspicions are so weak that we jump onto popp just for suspecting Bella. The implication of popp's post, I believe, was that Bella was less of a lurker and somewhat scummy.

I find extremely surprising that Bella is getting wagonned by the "anti-lurker" crusade. Among all the people there, she is the one with probably one of the best signal-to-noise ratio, and a decent posting rate. I suspect there is quite a few scum involved in this wagon looking for an easy ride.

This wagon is scummy but I'm not going to present a realistic alternative! Oh boy, I get to not be on this mislynch!

Then join the wagon because I don't think a PoPP lynch is going through anytime soon.

So be it.

Vote: Venmar

Someone points out how pointless the popp vote is, so we switch to Venmar (who was null a couple pages ago) because he "reread him" (from a post I didn't quote). A+ reasoning. If this slot is indeed scum, Venmar is almost guaranteed town (there's just no way this is a bus with the Bella wagon clearly winning at this point and the lazy way he moves onto Venmar such that he wouldn't have gotten many town points anyway if Venmar flipped scum) and Bella could be a scumbuddy.

Why is nobody interested in Venmar?

Now apparently seriously wants to lynch Venmar rather than what seemed like a compromise.

I targeted PeregrineV with my ult. If he doesn't die before the end of next night, something iffy is taking place.

Why Venmar didn't die yesterday? Can we try again?

Vote: Venmar

I took 2 points.

Which doesn't surprise me, but I really expected to be dead.

But, it surprises me that YOU damaged me, considering you had zero interaction with me yesterday, and expressed no intent during the night to damage me again when the discussion of damaging was taking place.

I didn't have interactions with you yesterday because (unless my read of you changed) i was planning to kill you this night. Why would i bother trying to lynch you?

So where are any reasons at all for suspecting him? And Els claims to have attacked PV, so we therefore know PV must be his biggest scumread. So why did he open the day voting Venmar, who I've yet to see much reason for suspecting? The idea that town shouldn't share their honest opinions is ridiculous. Looking for reasons to fabricate scumreads down the road if caught lying about a night action or doing something it doesn't seem like you would do? If Els flips scum, town points for PV, though not a guarantee (I could see scum having really crappy reasons for suspecting their scumbuddy just because they know said scumbuddy is scum). If neither of them is scum I'll eat my hat.

Anivia


Passive: some kind of revival that i won't describe
7 HP
AA: 1 dmg
Spell: 2 dmg
Ultimate: 2dmg, then 1 at end of day, then 1 at end of next night.

Yeah, i suck.

As I mentioned before, how does this make sense with Bitmap 894?

This wagon is my first love anyway. Can we make this happen?

[Cephrir]

PV, how does that answer the question?

[Cephrir]

PV, how does that answer the question?

If you add up all of the "planned" damage on d3X with my fake damage and everyone else's intent on day3, and then how it shifted, and then the final actions, Kise died instead of d3x.

Is that a reaction?

I understood the question as being 'what did you gain by lying'?

Why are my two suspects and Sajin voting for CF Riot? =/

Relatedly, not a huge fan of Sajin today.

[Cephrir]

I know I said in 3565 that my argument was for those who like arguments but that didn't mean everyone else didn't have to read it =/

[Cephrir]

I will still lynch PV, but I'd rather lynch Magua and deal with PV at night. Why did everyone ignore my case :sadrobot:

[Cephrir]

Hey Sajin, I already answered you several times, you just didn't like my answer.

I've already responded to the idea, but just to reiterate my position is still that I don't really care; CF Riot makes good points against it in the next post I quote but I also see how we have a lot to gain from it.

Yep, the CF Riot wagon is made of scum.

[Cephrir]

Hey Sajin, I already answered you several times, you just didn't like my answer.

I've already responded to the idea, but just to reiterate my position is still that I don't really care; CF Riot makes good points against it in the next post I quote but I also see how we have a lot to gain from it.

Yep, the CF Riot wagon is made of scum.

And I added more to it with a reply and have not heard back. I have basically been discussing it in every post today and that is litterally all you said.

I am extremely frustrated with how no one wants to talk about it.

@Ankamius- And I have stated that having everyone damage who they want results in net benefit for scum. See War in Heaven 2 for an hp system where everyone used their powers as they would.

Could you quote that for me? I'm not seeing it. I'm not sure why you think no one wants to talk about this when literally everyone who's posting has given their opinion.

[Cephrir]

"Everyone voting Sajin". Yes, all one of them. You said his slot was obv scum at every point all the time always, are you the only one allowed to change your mind?

Would settle for Sajin but other targets are higher priority at present.

[Cephrir]

As much as I'm okay with lynching Sajin I'm getting a bit sick of this switching wagons the day before deadline garbage.

[Cephrir]

I'm gonna leave my vote where it is until it becomes clear what my two choices are and then I'm probably going to pick the one that's not Sajin.

[Cephrir]

Let's lynch him then =/

[Cephrir]

Spoiler: Claims List

1. Bella
Bella, Kayle
Heal – Divine Blessing
Damage Increase – Reckoning
Immunity from Abilities for 1Night – Intervention
Ulted Ank N3
TH’d N2
Pushed Lane N1

2. Venmar
Feral Scream – RB and 2dmg
Ult – 5 dmg, gains Hp if target dies
N1 – pushed lane
N2 – RB’d VM
N3 – Ulted d3x

3. Cephrir Bub Bidderskins
BEEP BOOP
Passive: Onetime shield if he gets low.
Rocket Grab: prevents other stuff from happening to his target. Another element to this but HUSHHUSH.
Ultimate: Static Field – Anyone I target or who targets me takes one damage the night after this occurs.
N1: Pushed Lane
N2: Towerhugged
N3: RocketGrab’d Ank

4. Brandi
9HP, 2AA dmg
Ult does 4dmg, heals 1hp per four done. Ult also a RB.
Passive says whenever someone has 2hp or less.
Tracker based on the above passive.
N1: TH
N2: TH
N3: Ult Kise

5. Sajin Knight of Cydonia kdowns
Annie
AA 1dmg
Passive Pyromania: some abilities RB
Incinerate: 2dmg to target
TIBBERS: 2dmg to target, can command tibbers to AA for next two nights. Tibbers does 2aa dmg
N1: Push lane
N2: TH
N3: Ult Kise

6. PeregrineV xRECKONERx
Peregrine, Ashe
Laned N1, took 1dmg
N2 attacked kthx. Only one to dmg kthx. Took 3 dmg.
N3: Ulted d3x. Took 2 dmg.
Unblockable arrow – 4dmg, extra dmg for each other player that targets person.
His attack grows when others also damage my target.

7. Ankamius
Ankamius, Sivir
TH’d N1 (took 4dmg)
AA’d ActionDan N2 (Blocked by Andy, also taking 2dmg from Andy)
E negates damage from highest AA that night
Ult: Increases AA dmg to 3, can be used with AA
Passive: Successful AA hits do double dmg

8. d3x
Meditate. Regains 2hp and ignores the largest dmg.
Highlander. Deals extra AAdmg, immune to RBs and Redirects.
N1 – Push the lane
N2 – Ult
N3 – AA Sajin (3dmg), took 1hp from somewhere

9. Kthxbye
Kthxbye, Shen
Q: whoever attacks the target of this ability will recover 1 hp
E: a redirect to myself
R: protects target from 2 damage. Other damage past 2 is split between myself and my protected target.
N1: Taunted VM, 1dmg to VM
N2: Towerhugged
N3: Q’d Sajin

10. CF Riot
Brolaf, CFR
9hp, AA 2dmg
Passive: AAs do 3dmg when he’s at 3hp or less
E: 3dmg to target, 1dmg to self
R: Reduces dmg taken by 1 from all sources for 3 nights
N1: Pushed lane
N2: TH
N3: TH

11. Nexus Esuriospiritus
Urgot, 9HP
Acid Hunter 2dmg
Noxion Corrosion- 1dmg and makes next 2 AAs unblockable
Ult- Self-bus Driver with any other player
N1: push the lane
N2: targeted popp
N3: AH popp

12. InflatablePie
2dmg AA
Redirect
Ult: 2dmg to target, RBs, and RBs palyers on the same team as that player if they also target that player that night
N3: Redirected Venmar to Kise
N2: Ank to Elscouta/Bitmap
N1: Esu/Nexus to dram

13. NachoMamma8 TehBrawlGuy
Tryndamere
2AA dmg
Mocking shout reduces damage taken by half
Ult means if he dies, he resurrects with 3hp
N1, N2, N3: Towerhugged

14. Elscouta Bitmap
Anivia
7HP, 1dmg AA
Spell: 2dmg
Ult: 2dmg, 1 at end of day, 1 at end of next night
N1: Pushed the lane
N2: Spell on Pere
N3: Ult Pere

15. Andrius
E: All AAs on target do +1 dmg
R: Target is RB’d, takes 2 dmg. All other abilities that target your target fail.
N1: Pushed Lane
N2: Ulted Ank
N3: AA Kise

16. Pieceofpecanpie
Garen
N-3HP, 2 AA dmg
Q is a RB that does 2dmg
R does dmg for each 2hp that is missing
N2: took 1 dmg
N3: Q’d Bella
N2: TH
N1: TH

17. Panzerjager (Soraka), Blue Team, Lynched D1
n/a

18. Dramonic (Malzahar), Blue Team, Ganked N1
n/a

19. MrZepher (Vladimir), Purple Team, Lynched D2
n/a

20. VoidedMafia (Janna), Blue Team, Ganked D2
n/a

21. ActionDan (Maokai), Blue Team, Lynched D3
11HP, 1 AAdmg
sapling: deal one damage immediately, and 1 damage upon the next lynch. (so a possible 2 damage over night-phase-to-day-phase
twisted advance: roleblock target
Ult: damage taken is dealt to the source of the damage. no effect if I were to die the night I used it.
N1: Pushed Lane
N2: Ulted.

22. Kise (Corki), Blue Team, Killed N3
no one knowses

Spoiler: Damage Chart

DAMAGE CHART:
1.Bella, took 2 dmg from popp N3?
2.Venmar
Cephrir (3.Bub Bidderskins)
4.Brandi
Sajin (5.Knight of Cydonia kdowns) < 2 dmg from d3x, 1 from Kthx(?)
6.PeregrineV (xRECKONERx) < took 1 dmg N1, 3 N2, 2 N3
7.Ankamius < took 4 dmg N1, 2 N2, will take one dmg N4 from BlitzUlt
8.d3x < 1 dmg from ??? ( 3 from Peregrine, healed one via kthx's Q)
9.kthxbye < took X dmg N1
10.CF Riot
Nexus (11.Esuriospiritus)
12.InflatablePie
Nachomamma8 (13.TehBrawlGuy)
14.Elscouta (Bitmap)
15.Kise died super hard N3
16.Andrius < 4 dmg N2, 4 dmg N3
18.pieceofpecanpie took 1dmg N2, missing three HP total

Spoiler: Night Three Claimed Actions

NIGHT THREE:
1.Bella Ulted Ank
2.Venmar ulted d3x
Cephrir (3.Bub Bidderskins) RocketGrabbed Ank
4.Brandi Ult Kise for 4dmg
Sajin (5.Knight of Cydonia kdowns) AA’d Kise for 2dmg
6.PeregrineV (xRECKONERx) – Ulted d3x
7.Ankamius AA’d Kise
8.d3x AA’d Sajin
9.kthxbye Q’d Sajin
10.CF Riot TH
Nexus (11.Esuriospiritus) AH’d popp
12.InflatablePie Redirected Venmar to Kise
Nachomamma8 (13.TehBrawlGuy) TH’d
14.Elscouta (Bitmap) – UltedPeregrine, PV should be dead by D5
16.Andrius AA’d Kise
18.pieceofpecanpie Q’d Bella

Spoiler: Night Two Claimed Actions

NIGHT TWO:
1.Bella - TH
2.Venmar - RB'd VM
Cephrir (3.Bub Bidderskins) - TH'd
4.Brandi - TH
Sajin (5.Knight of Cydonia kdowns) - TH
6.PeregrineV (xRECKONERx) - AA'd kthx
7.Ankamius - AA'd Actiondan
8.d3x - Ulted
9.kthxbye - TH
10.CF Riot - TH
Nexus (11.Esuriospiritus) - AA'd popp
12.InflatablePie Redirected Ank to Bitmap/Elscouta
Nachomamma8 (13.TehBrawlGuy) - TH
14.Elscouta (Bitmap) - Spell on Peregrine
16.Andrius - Ulted Ank
18.pieceofpecanpie - TH

Spoiler: Night One Claimed Actions

NIGHT ONE:
1.Bella - Pushed Lane
2.Venmar - Pushed Lane
Cephrir (3.Bub Bidderskins) - Pushed Lane
4.Brandi - TH
Sajin (5.Knight of Cydonia kdowns) - Pushed Lane
6.PeregrineV (xRECKONERx) - Pushed Lane
7.Ankamius - TH'd N1
8.d3x - Pushed Lane
9.kthxbye - Taunted VM
10.CF Riot - Pushed Lane
Nexus (11.Esuriospiritus) - Pushed Lane
12.InflatablePie Redirected esu/nexus to dram
Nachomamma8 (13.TehBrawlGuy) - TH
14.Elscouta (Bitmap) - Pushed Lane
16.Andrius - Pushed Lane
18.pieceofpecanpie TH

Plan away.

[Cephrir]

I'm astonished that anyone could suspect Andrius at this point. Hell, I'd probably lynch Nexus and Brandi first.

[Cephrir]

It prevents damage and abilities, so if I grab Ank healing on him won't work.

I think scum probably didn't no-kill. If someone who's been in trouble was on the towerhug list I could see it, but well they aren't.

[Cephrir]

Kdowns has got to be the laziest reason I've heard in 20 pages.

[Cephrir]

Well, with Magua and Peregrine apparently not happening even though everyone thinks they're scum, I declare this to be the opposing wagon.

Unvote, Vote Venmar

Totally okay with compromising for Sajin at deadline, don't actually prefer Venmar by that much.

[Cephrir]

One hour. Someone get in here please.

[Cephrir]

This post contains snarky wifom about my night action

[Cephrir]

I might do a thing if Venmar flips town and I might do a thing if he flips scum, but I'm definitely WIFOMing tonight. There we go, I found the joke.

[Cephrir]

Grabbed CF Riot.

VOTE: Magua

[Cephrir]

On CF: As far as I can tell it should not have been possible for CFR to take damage last night, unless it was caused by something that didn't happen last night. My pull doesn't do damage (except 1 from ult the following night). The hushhush part of my ability is almost certainly not relevant, though it's theoretically possible depending on Bella's claim. I pulled him because I had a townread on him and some of my scumreads said they were planning to attack him. I can out the hushhush part of my ability if everyone wants, but it would render the ability almost completely useless.

Okay, so explain who else you think would decide to target me?

See the funny thing is it looks COORDINATED and regardless of whether things change your words from the previous day ARE NOT CONSISTENT with your night action.

But would town get pissed off by taking 7 damage a night? I SURE AS HELL WOULD.

Anyone would probably be mad after taking that much damage at once. Ank plus one person hardly counts as coordination.

[Cephrir]

Auto-attacks do count as a night action, right?

[Cephrir]

So it looks to me like either my grab didn't happen (and I didn't take any damage so unless scum have some super secret roleblock or Bella healed me for some unfathomable reason, this didn't happen) or Magua is scum with unblockable damage.

Kthx: I wouldn't rule it out. I don't see what the switch from Venmar to AD has to do with anything, except that the wagon starters might get some town points because scum don't have much reason to switch. Maybe I'm missing something?

[Cephrir]

That or someone used some kind of continual damage effect on CFR in a previous night.

[Cephrir]

so i think that we lynch bella. if she flips kayle, hammer the fuck out of CFR with attacks errywhere that he'll survive if he's telling the truth about his ult but not otherwise
someone with low AA damage hits popp. I see no reason why Ank should die.

Actually, no. CFR is also mod-confirmed to not be the 4 damage a night monster because mod error.

Why?

@Andy:

I pulled him because I had a townread on him and some of my scumreads said they were planning to attack him.

It's pretty simple. Plus my AA is shitty so I didn't have anything better to do.

I don't get why your post ends in a vote CFR, and I'd like it if people could explain themselves a bit more because there's a lot of if-X-flips-Y-lynch-Z stuff going around that I don't quite follow. I'm not terribly in tune with the night action stuff. This for instance:

If they don't waltz in and announce a mod error, we're lynching CF and then we're attacking Magua. And if neither flips scum, we're lynching Cephrir.

Like I don't see what any of these things have to do with each other. It's a bit curious that the mods didn't announce this error, but seeing as I pretty much know CFR shouldn't have taken any damage, I believe him anyway.

FTR, I don't think my ult saved ank. Will explain more later or now if needed.Will explain more later or now if needed.

Speak now or forever hold your peace.

[Cephrir]

P.edit: my ult protects up to 3 damage without my target taking any. I got hit for 1 last night which is claimed. That means scum tried to kill ank with 2 or less damage if Bella didn't ult him....unlikely. this is why I'm sure Bella will claim ulting him. I asked the mod if my ult would be used in the event ank was kayle ulted, the answer was yes so no confirmation of her actually using ot or not there. Personally, I see scum just not attacking him to try and confirm Bella ulting him while wasting my ult. I say ank is town due to his posting mimicking my own frustration with this game.

Given that he's publicly at 1 why is this unlikely? I guess you must be suggesting scum would have expected you to ult Ank and would have used more damage if they were going to go for him, or else if they didn't think this then they'd be counting on my one damage to be sufficient- either way you certainly saved him from me.

[Cephrir]

I don't necessarily think the case of the missing damage is that clear cut, we've had unexplained damage before haven't we? I do think popp is scum though. As he says, he can be AA'd at night, though admittedly we keep saying that about people and it never happens.

Regardless of any alignments involved popp, you are the one flailing, not Ank. He doesn't even have any reason to flail, his eventual death is guaranteed and he's not getting lynched today.

[Cephrir]

Kinda what popp just said. Something isn't adding up.

Ank believes popp is scum. Popp silenced Bella n3 and yet ank didn't die. If popp was scum and ank town, ank would have most certainly diedththat night. Why else would scum-popp silence bella?

Ank believes popp is scum and yet votes d3x instead?

I'm not buying that popp is scum and n3 happened with scum not killing ank and framing a town Bella.

Short of it, I'm now thinking Bella and ank are both scum and ank needs some damage tonight after Bella flips scum.

You're forgetting that I also saved Ank that night, so popp's scumteam might have tried to kill Ank and failed.

I don't know why today is suddenly popp vs. Bella day. I tend to want to kill popp (especially seeing as that doesn't take up our lynch) given the choice but I'm basically with Ank on this one... I'm just getting sick of this shit. I'll probably vote Bella soon but I don't want to end the day yet. Consider this

intent to hammer eventually

.

[Cephrir]

Go for your dreams Ank. Find the scum. I believe in you. (Hint: it's Magua/popp/someotherpeepsidunno)

[Cephrir]

It hadn't occurred to me that this is potentially MyLo. If we assume 9:4, assume popp and Ank die tonight and somehow flip town, we mislynch Bella, and scum ganks someone, that's 5:4. I guess it sounds like Andy is low too. If this *is* our last lynch (even though it probably isn't because popp is scum) I'm sure as hell not wasting it on Bella if I can help it, I was operating under the assumption that we had two.

Is there a case on d3x that isn't based on him being scum with ipie and/or Brandi, both of whom are town? 'Cause otherwise....what?

[Cephrir]

There totally was something right? I must just be forgetting because I didn't like it very much or something

[Cephrir]

Guys

I just want to lynch Magua

Is that so much to ask

[Cephrir]

If it makes you feel better, even if I was scum, I'm like literally the only person on MS who pretty much never shit talks the opposition on LoL, so you'd never get that reaction. You've played with me, you should know this.

I can't shit talk the opposition. I don't use all chat. Seriously, I recommend it, not being able to see what douches my teammates are being makes me hate them less. And I play support, so it matters. I've been known to get passive-aggressive.

Kthx please stop being stupid and answer the question. You can't possibly be that certain about your read, we all know you'll probably change it within 10 posts.

Pedit: Okay awesome now we just need some more people to see the light.

[Cephrir]

http://www.lolking.net/summoner/na/3223 ... nked-stats

But anyway. popp.
1. Why CFR? You might have said this already but I feel lazy.
2. Why me?
3. Can you try to ignore whatever stupid bitterness you have towards the Nexus slot?
3b. Why the implication that Magua could get off your suspect list despite your suspicion of the slot, whereas you don't feel the same about Nexus?
4. Do you agree with Ank's case on d3x (given that you have a scumread on Ank....)?
4b. If not, what's your case, seeing as you think those who saved him are town?

[Cephrir]

Yes. The reasons I want to lynch Magua have exactly nothing to do with Magua, he replaced a scum slot.

[Cephrir]

Yeah, CFR pretty much has the ult he claimed and used it, or has some other ability with the same effect. That or he's absurdly good at guessing.

[Cephrir]

His ult reduces all sources of damage by 1. My 2 becomes 1, your 1 becomes 0.

I do 2dmg with my AA.
THAT is what I'm getting at.

Interesting. Do we really think he would lie about his damage though?

[Cephrir]

Brandi you should probably read the game or whatever, you're town and we need all the town power we can get in this thread.

[Cephrir]

No, kthx doesn't have a great point. The night popp roleblocked Bella was the night I grabbed Ank. So they may very well have done just that.

[Cephrir]

VOTE: d3x

http://www.lolking.net/summoner/na/3223 ... nked-stats

But anyway. popp.
1. Why CFR? You might have said this already but I feel lazy.
2. Why me?
3. Can you try to ignore whatever stupid bitterness you have towards the Nexus slot?
3b. Why the implication that Magua could get off your suspect list despite your suspicion of the slot, whereas you don't feel the same about Nexus?
4. Do you agree with Ank's case on d3x (given that you have a scumread on Ank....)?
4b. If not, what's your case, seeing as you think those who saved him are town?

[Cephrir]

"suss slot, has said some suss things" is not "a feeling". It implies specifics. Feelings are also not my favorite things because you get to change your mind at the drop of a hat.

I usually don't agree with cases made by my scumreads but to each his own I guess.

[Cephrir]

@Cephrir

So I may have some specifics in mind, but right now I'm more focused on eliminating lynch targets rather than debating the merits of the ones I do want to lynch. It's not about changing my mind at the drop of a hat, it's about lynching those who won't benefit town.

Okay, I was with you up to here, although I don't know how we're going to lynch anyone without discussing the merits of lynching them.

So that list isn't necessarily alignment based.

Wait what? You're telling me that you want to utility lynch today, not lynch scum? Even though your list seemed to be based on suspicions (which have vanished into thin air)... wtf is this shit??

No Lynch is stupid.

[Cephrir]

I'm still just trying to establish the best scummy lynch for today, but not asking the question "who do I think is scum" to do so. There's madness to the method, or visa versa.

Clearly you think this makes any sense so I'll just let it be I guess.

We are not lynching Andrius today, get real.

[Cephrir]

I suggest Magua. Would settle for {d3x>Bella=kthx}.

[Cephrir]

Wow, I've been hella wrong this game. I really need to reconsider my stances apparently. At this juncture, I am not willing to lynch Andrius or Brandi, and will try to at least consider everyone else. Sadly this means it's iso time.

[Cephrir]

I will say, I'm leaning towards Bella + kthx, but I still want to reread.

[Cephrir]

Are we just claiming out of order now because I have slightly relevant info

[Cephrir]

I'll go after Bella. Theoretically, it could matter. I would like kthx to go before me as well, but whatever.

[Cephrir]

Screw it, it's probably your fault anyway.

I grabbed Ank last night. He either died because you taunted me, or because you (or someone else) attacked me. I took one damage last night. The part of my ability I didn't reveal before, which I will now seeing as it's pretty much a moot point (I don't plan on using it again ever), is that I'm essentially a reverse hider. My target is pulled to me, and anything that hits me hits them, too (except ganks). Naturally you can see why I didn't want to out that, scum could pile on me for a free double kill.



And now for what's wrong with your VCA. D1, literally everyone was voting town except possibly those of *us* on you, but of course you've smarmily assumed yourself town to make your point sound better. D2, yeah, my slot didn't end up on the MrZ wagon. I'm not looking at it right now, but I'd take a wild guess Bub wasn't active as he proceeded to get replaced shortly thereafter. Though, again, you're assuming you're town, making this part relatively worthless to anyone not sitting in your seat (assuming you're town, which you probably aren't). Also, your assumptions that three other unflipped players are all town is incredibly egotistical of you. Andrius I can accept, I can see how someone could see ipie as conftown (he's pretty close), but Nacho? Really?

D3, everyone except possibly CF Riot was voting town, and anyone who wasn't voting town that day was being stupid or not paying attention (deadline looming, we had to lynch someone, neither of the options was in fact scum). I guess I could have looked better in your eyes by stubbornly voting some random that wasn't going to be lynched though.

D4, every currently living player was voting town. Like, you are allowed to analyze vote counts, but if you only look at the end of the day you aren't getting the whole story. Especially in this game, where who was on a given lynch wagon has been determined almost entirely during several days by who was online. If you want to suspect me for showing up to help make sure we actually got a lynch every day go right ahead.

[Cephrir]

Okay I didn't quite grasp the difference between your two sections initially but the points mostly remain

[Cephrir]

That would be more reasonable though we don't gain much from it without a Bella flip.

[Cephrir]

By the way kthx, you were on town every day except D2. And we know for a fact at least one scum was bussing MrZ (it happens to have been all of them, but I can't prove that and I'm assuming Pie is town).

[Cephrir]

That's actually intended as another point for why your analysis is stupid, not another reason I suspect you, though I have plenty of those.

[Cephrir]

CFR and Nacho could both be town, though I'm doubtful. One of them is probably the final piece in my bella kthx ? scumgroup.

[Cephrir]

If I'm definitely not voting ipie or Brandi today, and if Andy is scum I don't even care he deserves the win and an Oscar, I suppose all I have to do is figure out which of those four is town.

[Cephrir]

That's kind of a good point.

[Cephrir]

I don't think most of those disqualify pairings. Two scum on a team of three are bound to do the same thing at some point. I think your argument kthx/Nacho aren't buddies is the best one, and that the CFR/Nacho and CFR/kthx arguments are the worst.

[Cephrir]

What's wrong with jumping on a wagon right after your partner if said wagon is a bus?

[Cephrir]

My pull does one damage a night later, so that wouldn't actually account for one of the damage. I don't know how you could have possibly taken damage if this is the case. Are you sure your ability is a self-redirect, not a force-player-to-attack-you like it would be in flavor? 'Cause otherwise this is either a mod error or you're lying.

Vote: kthx

@Andy: I already explained the CFR grab, come on v.v
What isn't town motivation about saving my town reads? What else am I supposed to do with this ability? Sure, it doesn't look great now that he's probably scum, but the motivation is still there.

Also, my role is pretty much confirmed by the mod error with CFR N4, is it not?

[Cephrir]

This means Ank was dead last night no matter what? Or does your pull negate the previous nights pull's damage? Where does that damage go?

The first time I pulled him was N3, on N4 you and/or Bella saved him from the 1 damage.

Also, for those looking for scum motivation for any of ceph's pulls (if pull is even an ability he has), all damage town does to him would be converted to the townie he pulled...duh.

Which obviously explains why I tried to save Ank twice when he was so low scum could have just punched him in the face. And the only other person I ever pulled was CFR, who according to you is my scumbuddy.

I'm still not scum, keep trying though.

[Cephrir]

Brandi, Lady of the AtE
Q- ?
W- ?
E- ?
R- Dot, range 500; target believes you are town forever in every game

[Cephrir]

Unvote

[Cephrir]

I've now heard arguments that I'm scum if CFR is scum and that I'm scum if CFR is town. He's probably scum but it would be nice if you'd make up your mind before the flip.

I'm down to lynch CFR, kthx or Bella, I think, but CFR is probably the best choice today..

In theory, a scum blitz would be scummy, making the role not so hot for scum. there's also a lot of roleblocking and redirecting (normally scum abilities) in this game. My ability is protective unless I suck, which I didn't, which is why I used it the way I did. If I was under suspicion I guess I could have started grabbing my scumreads, but I probably would have just not grabbed at all. I don't really see what's scummy about my role, it just fits the flavor really well, which seems to be how these roles were designed (see: Nocturne).

[Cephrir]

Blocking? I don't block shit.

[Cephrir]

Well, I was suspicious of you early kthx, and everyone I actually suspected pretty much died. So, PoE, and I think you're more likely than Nacho.

[Cephrir]

The town core is Andy/Brandi/Pie. Stop trying to weasel your way into it kthx.

[Cephrir]

First off Brandi is confirmed where exactly? Secondly, if you think I'm scum you literally have to be an idiot.

No one is confirmed, why would anyone other than maybe pie be confirmed

I guess I'm an idiot then

[Cephrir]

Actually I'm not saying that good try though

[Cephrir]

Vote: CF Riot

[Cephrir]

Yesssssssss

So glad we didn't have to keep playing that

[Cephrir]

It's a good thing we saved Bella D3, we never would have won otherwise.

[Cephrir]

I'm now more sure of one of my scumtells being accurate now, since I saw Cephrir use it over and over and over again. Now I'll be more adamant in pushing it when I see it.

It sounds like you don't plan on being more specific

[Cephrir]

http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/hELXQWwYHA5

Can we has dead QT?

[Cephrir]

Meh, if we were in that situation, all I would've hoped for is that people would've taken heed of what I said at some point about killing Cephrir if he lives too long.

No one ever listens to this argument =P

[Cephrir]

But we wanted you around to keep dealing tons of damage to everyone but us

[Cephrir]

I kept trying to save you partially to look town, but partially because your presence was actively benefitting us.

[Cephrir]

I mean you called everyone scum at some point or another

[Cephrir]

I would've fought the CFR lynch if I was town or if it wasn't the last day.

[Cephrir]

Ceph was non-present early

Maybe because I wasn't in the game =P

[Cephrir]

We lied about max HP, but never about damage taken.

[Cephrir]

I wonder why no one picked up on the fact that Bella never did anything confirmable, at all, ever.

[Cephrir]

That was a big reason why I went for her D3... :/

We just got caught up in plans to keep me alive, so we let her go.

Nacho pretty much saved her by starting the Venmar counterwagon. We connected ourselves pretty blatantly to Bella D3, and that's how we could have lost. Though I guess Nacho tried to make up for it by bussing her for the rest of the game.

[Cephrir]

Except that Nacho claimed a role pretty close to what he actually had and didn't lie about any damage, and I claimed my actual role and didn't lie about any actions. If there was coordination, would town have picked targets better? Maybe.

[Cephrir]

I would consider it.

Even though I prefer playing scum, I'd rather be town with these mechanics.