Calvin & Hobbes Mafia-Game Over!!!

[Tigris]

I'm quite tempted to make a rule that would state 'All rules must be strictly abided by, save for coolbot's rule.' This would essentially nullify every rule made thus far, except of course coolbots.

The major flaw that I see in the gnomes rule is one largely of semantics. It states that all night choices must be randomly reselected; however it does not state by whom or how often. Thus a mafia could randomly reselect, oh say 30 times and still choose the target that they wish to. Essentially the rule is too deeply flawed to have any impact, imo. Oh and just in case people think this post has three sentences which are grammatically correct, that's incorrect, I'm an English major, so while I dislike obvious errors, I slipped enough minor ones so that modargo's rule applies to me as none of these sentences are completely correct. ^_^ Sorry about babbling however, this is fun for me ^_^.

[Tigris]

Well in my mind there are 3 types of rules going around.
Rules affecting posting, game related items, and rule affecting rules (coolbot and modargo for example)

If the rule was stated that 'Everyone must strictly follow the rules in regards to posting and game related issues.' Since this leaves the rules affecting rules alone, they would still be applicable however, all other rules would be null and void as everyone would become no one. Also since it is a rule affecting rule, it would not be affected by itself either.

The reason why I think simply getting rid of the majority of the rules is the best idea is because it is just getting in the way imo, yes having fun and all that is great, but setting restrictions on posting limits that fun and setting guidelines for the night choices, they have too many loopholes and too many problems. For example, what happens when a cop gets an innocent/guilty response? If they do not receive a name with the alignment, then the investigation is useless and potentially damning as a cop could get a mafia as innocent (of course this is predicated on the idea of the cop only receiving alignment, which as a non-cop I wouldn't know to be/not be the case in this game).

[Tigris]

Yer doing fine mlaker, no worries.

Now then, just to add to your already hectic schedule of modding ^_^, I submit my rule.

Rule:

Everyone must vote for at least different people during the day, this rule is waved in there are less then 6 people left.

This should help out minutely with trying to recognize voting patterns and may come in handy later on in the game.

[Tigris]

or I could add the 3 to that rule, everyone must for at least 3 different people

sorry

[Tigris]

Yes, an English major at 11 pm after working all day. *sigh*

Everyone must vote for at least different people during the day, this rule is waved in there are less then 6 people left.

This should read: Everyone must vote for at least 3 different people during the day; this rule is waived if there are less then 6 people left.

Geez, 4 mistakes in one sentence.

I don't care for lurkers much, so this rule would effectively make that tactic impossible. Additionally, it would help the town with voting patterns. Also, if you think about it, it isn't that difficult of a task.

[Tigris]

Tiger food?!?! Where???? Oh ye meant the mom iffen s/he's scum. My mistake.

Well, since it is 10 to lynch (via my count) and we only have 8 on him, I don't believe that we are at the lynch mark yet. I would advise a slightly longer time frame for him to prove/disprove his innocence via mom, simply because it is the holiday season and a lot of people are celebrating. I know I am ^_^ *wishes we had a intoxicated icon ^_^*

Anyhows, usually mason groups are safe until end-game scenarios (just because the mafia wants to kill docs and cops), but then again yer a mason group with an ability, so I'm not sure what the mafia would do with ye. Ordinarilly, I would suggest that the mother come out and verify ye, but since there is that extra ability . . . I do wish that ye hadn't given out the extra ability part cause then ye two could have confirmed each other without making targets fer the mafia.

To be honest, i'm not sure how much good a role blocker is. Iffen the mod decides that the mafia acts as a group then losing one member on the kill via role block wouldn't make that much of a difference, imo. So it is actually more likely to hurt the town, imo if that is the case (as cops and docs can be blocked singularly, not to mention vigies who will think their target is the godfather iffen they de nae be dying) even though it be pro-town. Course it works pretty well on sks though.

Oh and I fergot earlier to talk about pb's point about my thinking about the previous rule about night choices being random. Let's say yer a cop and get investigation results. Iffen the mod only tells ye innocent/guilty, without the name attached, then the randomization the mod would make would mean that you don't know who is innocent/scum, but newer players would infer that it applied to the people they wished to target when it didn't. But since I'm not a cop, I de nae be knowing what type of results they receive, so the argument may be incredibly moot as opposed to merely moot per mlaker's ruling. ^_^

I guess that how useful a role-blocker is depends on the mafia mechanism, anyone wish to volunteer any knowledge on that, we won't lynch ye, honest. Oh and iffen ye do be wondering (which I'm sure yer not ;P) this whole post be sounding like the dwarves in FF9 in me head, which may be aching come the morn.

[Tigris]

Oh and no fair posting while I'm typing modargo, iffen I hadn't already posted my rule I would post that no one can post while I'm typing *pouts, perks up and is very happiesh* Kinda agrees with modargo though, but prefers to vote with a proper state of mind. ^_^

[Tigris]

(Okay PB no more posting like I talk occasionally ^_^) Oh and I agree about not talking about what roles are possible, make the mafia get their roles from somewhere else.

Anyhows, this is slightly embarassing to say, but I'm not sure that I fully understand the plans in regard to dad and hobbes. But, since there is a plan, I hope that it works properly.

Oh and shelper, as to why a vigilante might think they targeted the godfather if their target didn't die. Okay, so let's say I'm a vigilante, I will not kill someone unless I find them suspicious enough to be almost positive they are scum. They don't die, so one of three possibilities
1) They are the godfather and thus usually immune to night kills.
2) A doc protected them, which would irritate me greatly as if I think they are suspicious enought to try to kill, then they should be suspicious enough that someone shouldn't protect them
3) I was role-blocked (usually a fairly distant possibility in my mind)

[Tigris]

Uhm, if a bunch of people suddenly voted no-lynch at the same time, I would be highly suspicious of them, especially since there are a fair number of players on this sight that wouldn't advocate a no-lynch unless it was along the lines of 4 left and 1 mafia amongst them. I'm not going to vote for koraiss because I believe his claim to be honest, so I would fos modargo for his joy about the bandwagon (I usually like more discussion, less bandwagon), but since I haven't been around that much in this game it would be hypocritical.

[Tigris]

baa ram you,
This leaves a sickening feeling in me, but I guess I will join a bandwagon, just to hopefully get the day moving a bit, I hate bandwagons.

vote: breakdown

I don't find coolbot that suspicious, plus I think he has had the town's interest at heart today, so I'll follow his lead on this one.

[Tigris]

Okay, so things have gotten even more bizarre since I last posted.

Has there been a mafia role blocker in the past-yes, in Improbable Mafia, it was the mafia lawyer played by Sketchwick, who was the last mafia standing, if memory serves. If memory also serves that was mafia 3, I believe which was a considerable amount of time ago, modded by Quercitron, who many of you probably don't even know who that is.

I'm curious where you get the idea of a mafia role-blocker though UT, I suppose that it is a possibility, but I haven't seen it since way back then (before I started here), so I'm curious why you think this likely. If it is just a gut feeling, that's fine.

The pity is that if there is a mafia role-blocker, then it doesn't matter what plans we form, someone will almost certainly die tonight. (These scenarios are all made under the assumption that UT and mgia are telling the truth and there is a mafia-roleblocker), which may or may not be the case
Scenario 1:
I think the original plan was for mgia to role block UT as he tries to kill someone else. If there is a mafia role-blocker, then blocking mgia would result in UT killing his target. If the role-blocking is seperate from the killing then there are two kills (likely 2 pro-town roles would die)
Scenario 2:
UT targets mgia who tagets UT. mgia gets role-blocked, mgia dies, suspicion will likely fall somewhat on UT as mgia would be revealed as a role-blocker. Someone else is killed as well, 2 kills for mafia, suspicious pro-town role.
Scenario 3: They target each other with doc protection. 1 kill, but no verification of the role-blocking ability as it is undeterminable whether the role blocking worked or not (unless a saved person has a side-effect tomorrow).
Scenario 4: UT does not do anything, cop investigates mgia, who role-blocks someone else. Only 1 night kill and 1+ cop investigations used. The roleblocks are freed up on both sides however.

That's the way I see it right now. Also, to be honest, I find a role-blocking mason to be less useful then a random pro-town player, who may very well be a cop or doc. Especially since the role-blocking ability is not lost when that person dies. I'm still trying to figure out what to think about all this, so

unvote: breakdown

, I'll have to think about it for a bit before I re-vote for someone.

[Tigris]

Bah, this is nothing compared to intrigue mafia, where I think day one was 50 some-odd pages, of course by the end I wasn't posting (I'm not sure what was going on at that time, something was going on irl, bronchitis maybe?).

I beginning to lean more towards Coolbot because my philosophy is to warn the town once about a possible back-stabbing role (i.e. Hobbes) and then wait til the next day to do it again, so the insistence is slightly strange to me. At the same time, I would much prefer leaving him be for at least today as he is not a Calvin-clone and thus might have an ability that is useful for us (which bandagoning would reveal to the mafia if this is the case, so I would prefer if they did not have that information). I was voting for breakdown, but no big deal as I would have unvoted him in this post anyway.

[Tigris]

Geez, what is going on in this game? Does mathcam have scum written across his forehead in bright pink neon letters or something? I mean this is the second time that someone has voted for him after he came out as a calvin clone, verifying korais and stating that they are vanilla townies. So personally, I trust cam until his information is refuted.

I would vote for UT, just because I really don't like that style of play, but since Hobbes is probably pro-town (and yes I do hold out that faint possibility that he is not, I have been deceived in a game once too often when I wasn't careful enough), I'm not going to.

Oh and sorry mlaker , I did unvote breakdown earlier, I just forgot about it, so your count was right.

[Tigris]

No lynch has it's place, but this is not one of them. This is only day one and both deaths are pro-town (?, I'm assuming that Spaceman Spiff is pro-town). Therefore, the town is at a disadvantage right now. It would be different if one of the dead was scum, as that would give us some breathing room and the additional night would help us cut down on suspicious people; however, since that did not occur, our margin for error is somewhat smaller then when we began.

So essentially what it comes down to is this, each side begins with a certain margin for error. An evil killing another evil cuts down on theirs, whereas a no lynch cuts down on the town's, a lynch of a pro-town cuts down on the town's more then no-lynch, but at the same time gives more information via voting patterns and the like, additionally there is the knowledge that everything that person said was said from a pro-town point of view, which if the town has a larger margin of error is an acceptable trade imo. A lynch of an evil is obviously a good thing ^_^, especially as it gives the previous information without sacrificing a pro-town role.

I do not care much for the current bandwagonees, especially as argoti and coolbot seem to be voting each other based on playing style, ben has kindof grown on me, so I kindof like him in a game and he is trying to get people thinking, god, yeah the whole UT thing was really wierd, so I don't know if I want to think about that part of this game, koraiss is likely innocent, and for some reason I trust coolbot right now, so if I vote for no lynch, does that mean it gets lynched and no one can vote for it again? I suppose I should read through the thread again and post my suspicions, but right now I'm beat and the first time I can get a good look at this game will likely be in around 13-14 hours, so no holding your breath ^_~

Oh and ZA, I have always hated that logic, but I have to admit that coolbot is acting more suspicious of others then usual, perhaps I should look at that more closely.

[Tigris]

*agrees with mathcam about ben*

I do have one nit-pick point though, I really do not want all of our docs tied into protecting either UT or mgia, that just gives free reign to the mafia and sk (?) to kill whoever else they wish. So if we go with modargo's plan, I would be more inclined to support having each doctor with a chance to protect one of them and a chance to protect whomever they wish. Who knows, perhaps they will get lucky. However, with God's plan we can't have a doctor protect mgia as that would negate the vigi killing as well.

To be honest, the more I think about the roles, the more I am inclined to think there doesn't necessarily need to be a plan. Are the parents and Hobbes quite likely to be here? Yes and it is too early for the mafia to make a claim like they are one of them, too easily and too likely to be refuted. So the only concern is that the parents and/or Hobbes aren't pro-town, which can be decided on later, as proof of ability does not necessarily correlate to proof of allegience. (Course I am also one of those people that thinks the only time someone is proven is when they are dead for 2 days, so maybe I'm not the best judge on proven anythings ^_^).

I still feel the whole UT/God thing is borderline creepy, so I still don't know how comfortable I am looking into that. I guess that the basic difference between the two plans (maybe?, it's how I see the difference at least) was the value given to a mason role-blocker. Personally, I tend to see it as less valuable then many roles (as even if it is killed, the ability is not lost); therefore, I find putting it at possible risk is acceptable as I doubt that the mafia would go after it at this stage of the game (especially with cops and docs still alive).

[Tigris]

Interesting night choices, imo. Why in the world would a killing group target a powerless calvin clone? And why (no offense intended) korais and not cam if they wished to kill a clone? Seems strange to me, course then again much of this game has seemed really wierd. It is quite helpful that one of the mafia died last night, so now just have to find connections/disassociations in the last 18-19 pages ^_^, will post more once I have the time to re-read with the new perspective.

[Tigris]

I do have one nit-pick point though, I really do not want all of our docs tied into protecting either UT or mgia, that just gives free reign to the mafia and sk (?) to kill whoever else they wish. So if we go with modargo's plan, I would be more inclined to support having each doctor with a chance to protect one of them and a chance to protect whomever they wish. Who knows, perhaps they will get lucky. However, with God's plan we can't have a doctor protect mgia as that would negate the vigi killing as well.

This quote I presume?

I still completely stand behind this logic. Having every single doc (2-3 perhaps?) in the game protecting MGIA and UT allows the mafia/sk to kill whomever they wish with no fear of being blocker and/or creating someone that likely cannot be one or the other (sk or mafia) via the protection. I still hold that a role-blocking mason whose ability is not lost upon death is less valuable to the town then a potential cop/doc, but perhaps that is only my opinion *shrug*.

[Tigris]

I don't know much about Calvin and Hobbes, but would the doll be pro-town? I would think yes and if that is the case then I would think that Werebear was a full vigilante. Of course, this post isn't really saying all that much, but I just needed something to say to bump it so that perhaps we cna get some activity? Inactivity only helps the mafia by making the town make rash decisions, imo.

[Tigris]

Oh joy, a bandwagon based on (from what I see), my desire to not have all the docs tied up last night on a role that I still see as worth less then a random pro-town person. Oh and I actually want to see activity, meh whatever, not like my role is too important, so it won't hurt the town if I end up having to claim, but I would prefer to actually have something resembling reasons to receive votes.

Rereading, if you weren't near confirmed as innocent I would vote you in a second UT, first you suggest that cops investigate you and MGIA after going after him for a while, which combined with the docs protecting only you two would have effectively cost virtually every important pro-town role an entire night, then you come out with the idea of a mafia role-blocker, while being completely fanatical in attacks on God, whereas before you were supporting his plan with no basis for the idea of a mafia role-blocker, even after a scum's death.

AS to my own re-read,

fos: Breakdown, Coolbot, and Zoneace

, at at least one point each of them said something to draw my attention. Of course, ZA is likely a calvin-clone, so he's out, Coolbot is at least contributing, which (this might be personal), I prefer players who might try to kill me, but contribute meaningful posts in the game to pro-town people who post meaningless drivel. It's unfortunate that it appears the two people I find most suspicious based upon their posting styles are likely pro-town, oh well, probably just difference of styles.

Of course, we need to get a lot more participation or else we will end up with another no lynch and I doubt that we will be lucky enough to have a scum die tonight.

Question to the mod

Is the front page updated with the replacements? I would like to know who to prod back into activity.

[Tigris]

Oh, forgot thanks if you can say mlaker ^_^

[Tigris]

*shrug* Whatevs, not like I didn't give you other alternatives, oh and combine that with 19 pages of posting to look through and I think people in this game deserve a ^_^. My role-Dinosaur, in a nutshell I have the ability to cause someone to not be able to perform their ability that night. Since I have never seen role-blockers as that useful to the town, I have not used my ability yet, nor do I plan on it as I see it as more likely to harm the town via stopping a cop/doc then a killer, it has its uses, but largely only late in a game, imo.

So since I see the ability as near useless (right now at least), I have no problem with the town lynching me, with the caveat that people actually, oh I don't know, look for clues or something tomorrow.

[Tigris]

Tigris seems kind of apathetic, and that doesn't seem like Tigris.

Quite, it's actually rare for me to even get bandwagoned and usually I just disuade it fairly easily without even needing to claim *shrug*. However, the reasons why I am becoming increasing apathetic both in this game and towards the forum in general is the tendency I see of players to play stupidly, i.e. never using logic or reasoning in their attacks, bandwagoning blindly for claims (as if that is the only way to get information ), becoming entirely dependant upon cops, not talking for days/weeks on end, etc.

The fact that many of these came together in this game is no fault of the mod, but it has occured imo, in conjunction with my own life getting more time-consuming, so put bluntly I don't really care that I got lynched.