HunterxHunterxMafia: Yorknew City: Endgame

[Sajin]

vote:PimHel

for not letting me in for a hydra slot in time. Big meanie.

I also urge every hydra that is in the game to end their post with a quick little -(initial, of your personal account) on it. It really helps with reading hydras. Thanks very much.

@Vi: How have you been?
How have your games been going?
I am curious.

[Sajin]

Alright well my vote has been on the wrong person for about 4 vote counts now (due to moderator vote count error) and I find it sad that no one saw it. More critical eyes on the game please. I now want to see if votes count on the mod in vote counts as a theme game test in honor of all the tar games I have played.

unvote
vote: hitogoroshi

ehh don't really feel like putting effort into remembering an initial, too much like a post restriction, I'll see what matt has to say though.

tbh if you want to know which head wrote a post for meta or whatever, just ask.

The effort you spend putting on a single initial is less than the effort to try and figure out who is talking when in each hydra post. I don't care as long as I don't have to read through conflicting views about issues within your hydra in the thread. It is extremely frustrating to criticize a player slot for having opposing views about a singular event that do not add up and then later attribute it to having 2 different people post about it. It is completely understandable to have 2 different views about the reads of that player and hydras give the opportunity to get 2 reads on the same player spot but the downside is the amount of noise they cause in the thread. Signing posts is a way to gain clarity without much added noise which imo is always a good thing. Your choice though.

Hi all. This is my first large-themed game. I'm pretty much okay with the basic rules, theory, etc. However, experiencing hydrae is a rather new phenomenon for me. Any tips on reading and playing with them would be appreciated.

I agree that if PimHel had a reason to vote for squared then his Vi vote was pretty much redundant (and wasn't even worth posting), but I don't know that the redundancy is alignment indicative on its own.

I would like to know why Maxous joined the squared wagon, as well as Metal Sonic. There are several other votes without reasoning, but these ones I am interested in because they are on a leading wagon which implies the votes are not random like the others may be. Maxous' comment about his interpretation of PimHel's play preceding his vote without any reasoning for his own vote seemed a little passive. Metal Sonic's 1, 2, 3 post reads a little as someone trying to blend in, which can be a scum behaviour, but it isn't enough for me to base a vote on.

Thenewearth, I would like to know why you think being on a fast-moving wagon would be scummy, and why you aimed that criticism at PimHel and not Metal Sonic who voted squared just before him?

Hello, glad to have you in your first theme game. I suggest you read each hydra "head" individually and don't compare them (except later to try and help confirm a town read or scum read on the slot). Masons are a crappy way to think about hydras because it is 1 vote shared and a lot of masons power comes from 2 votes and alignment confirmation of one after another dies. Neither of these are true for a hydra at all.

Are we still in RVS?

I don't like players who get suspicious over others for voting in RVS, it sounds like a very bad reason for following the norm, imo

its called RVS for a reason

The point of it is to spark discussion, if you don't conclude anything off of it then what can you conclude off anything? What you can do is conclude based on what you see then see what other people thought and judge them based on that. This is really the only way to get discussion going when you have so little info day 0. What should be done during the RVS in your opinion?

squared/tinytwo- if you have a bunch of little comments to say put them all in the same post, doing it like that will make extra pages that people will whine about and give people excuses to not bother catching up in-thread because it's sooooo looooong and yeah.

and so this post can have something resembling content in it metal sonic is probably a better vote than sajin but i don't want to do it right now because Reasons.

Because reasons is probably one of the top 5 worst posts you can make.

vi im preeetty sure you're underestimating my desire to link daft punk to respond to things that I dont want answer seriously because it'll be sortof explainy and boring and not helpful.

also the sajin vote is totally on next to nothing but i actually like or at least dont-not-like most of the other posts in the game so far sooo yep.

Because reasons. You have 5 posts so far in the thread and have stated why you liked a few votes but have not really explained why. Help everyone understand your viewpoint.

post_id=4933108 time=1367821201 user_id=10128 post_num=149]Also, the only way his QT comment is a townslip is scum daytalk, which is not a common mechanic, existing in this game. Which he outright assumed was true. Isn't that a scumslip instead?

VOTE: AngstyMatters

post_id=4933991 time=1367861846 user_id=10128 post_num=187][quote="In post 168

post_id=4933108 time=1367821201 user_id=10128 post_num=149]Also, the only way his QT comment is a townslip is scum daytalk, which is not a common mechanic, existing in this game.

Which he outright assumed was true.

Isn't that a scumslip instead?

this is a distortion of events. Matt never mentioned anything about scum daytalk (don't believe he was ever clear on why it was a townslip); remembrance was the one who brought up scum day talk as a faulty assumption.

Can Matt make that post clearer when he comes back? Also why did he feel the need to point out a "townslip"?[/quote]

The majority of large theme games I have played have had scum daytalk and I would be willing to bet this game does as well. I do think speculation about whether there actually is scum day talk in this game is fair game. I have not seen anything that would point to a scum slip or town slip concerning this though.

@Hp Leaves- Additional question, why are we bringing up death note speculation at all?

@2, Your post style reminds me of Mastin. Either one of you an alt?

[Sajin]

Masons are a crappy way to think about hydras because it is 1 vote shared and a

lot of masons power comes from 2 votes and alignment confirmation of one after another dies

. Neither of these are true for a hydra at all.

The bolded is false. Masons are confirmed to each other. If they weren't, they'd be neighbors.

- b

All I was trying to do was gain clarity for a newer player unfamiliar with hydras. Why do you have to intentionally try and murk the waters again? It is a crappy correlation and

lets both

let the three of us drop it.

It also was pretty fucking obvious what

I

meant. He instigated this type of nitpicky crap.

- b

@2: Who is "He" in this statement? Me? I am confused. Clear it up and then I am satisfied with the mason discussion.

MattP (of Angsty Matters) - Gammagooey is demoralized at having drawn scum again and is waiting for someone to put a b-ball above the bridge of his nose. Discuss.

Talking out the other side of my mouth:

@Sajin: Please if Town stop making Gammagooey's vote look good. That post just brought back everything wrong and bad about Mind Screw games.

Talking out the other other side of my mouth:

I'll be super active at any moment

Please God no. If I come back from work to see entire pages of you and buldermar posting things that are probably skimmable I'm going to ask hito for a refund on his life-betterment promise. (Also @buldermar 233 - it doesn't take the same amount of time when I have to go find something someone said among three pages of your irrelevant posting.)

How many sides of your mouth do you have? Besides, worth a shot at seeing if a vote works. I agree, stupid mechanic.

Additionally, you're wrong in your analysis regarding WIFOM. I can go into details about it, but in short: everything in this game aside from votes that leads to a lynch and things confirmed by the mod in non-bastard games boils down to WIFOM. Saying "no" would also be a type of WIFOM with respect to alignment. Your whole argument about WIFOM never being town-motivated is also fundamentally flawed because town sometimes benefit from gambits, just to mention one thing.

We aren't going to get anywhere by arguing scum-hunting strategies. You won't convince me that WIFOM isn't scummy. And saying "no" to a question about putting off a rivalry for the first 3 days is not WIFOM. When I'm talking about WIFOM, I mean posing a hypothetical about what you Would do if of the other allignment.

Also, 7 posts from ^2 in a row? Next time, do it all in one post plz. OMG you did it twice! Use reply not quick reply. Please. Put everything in one post. Like seriously. I will advocate a policy lynch if you keep at it.

erg, I have bad gut feels on Sajin. Not sure why atm.

@Nacho: My ^2 read would best be described as leaning scum, and thus worth pushing. I don't think anyone can truly have a solid read on page 9--let alone day 1.

WHY THE HELL ARE WE STILL ARGUING ABOUT HYDRAS? NO ONE CARES! Even if it is a bad comparison, does it make a person scummy for believing that? NO. so stahp.

I don't really give a shit what you mean when you're talking about WIFOM, because WIFOM is a well-defined concept. If you do not know what it means, you should look it up instead of continuing an argument based on your own flawed version of the concept.

7 posts in a row is probably average for me. I'm not going to do it all in one post because it's a massive waste of time and takes the exact same time to read. Go ahead and advocate that policy lynch - I think you may have quite a few supporters in here.

- b

Well I have a natural tendency for longer posts because that is how I read the game best and I have encountered many people who don't like those. I don't really think it matters about number of posts (or how large the posts are) but what matters is content. That said, if I received requests to change how I posted I would do so for clarity sake and not be hardheaded about "its my post style dammit, take it or take off". Why are you down with gaining clarity by signing posts because your in a hydra but not down for changing the rest of your posting style when asked? And why are you promoting being policy lynched.... this is just going to be a serious detractor to getting reads done.

I really dislike 2s attitude (posting style is fine, and the attitude is shared by both heads). But I would rather look at other things rather then this whole thread being about how 2 is burying the thread.


Vote test is done, thanks for fixing my votes, hiro.

unvote;
vote: gammagooey

[Sajin]

It is a crappy correlation and

lets both

let the three of us drop it.

How can you even say these two things in the same sentence when you know that I disagree with that position? You should be ashamed of yourself.

- b

Fine, you can continue talking about it and I will stop. You could answer my question though.

preview edit: answered, thanks.

[Sajin]

Why are you down with gaining clarity by signing posts because your in a hydra but not down for changing the rest of your posting style when asked? And why are you promoting being policy lynched.... this is just going to be a serious detractor to getting reads done.

signing the post with a initial and changing the way you are used to post are miles away from each other. for me it is a hassle to multiquote stuff, especially if there a wall posts and you want to investigate/answer not the whole wall but specific points. i would also think that scum is more eager to please the crowd and post like they demand. also squared doesn't exactly promote being policy lynched, they only encouraged toasty to further advocate it right? that would make for reads who would jump on a policy lynch i think

I suppose. I just think your going to get town and scum equally likely to hop on an invitation like that and thus it becomes wasted noise over actual getting reads of the thread. It is only useful if you believe town and scum are not equally likely to join a "policy lynch". Do you think it is more likely for town or scum to hop onto a "policy lynch"? If you do do not think it is more likely for one or the other to vote a policy lynch then how is that going to help with reads?


@CF Riot: Reasoning for gamma vote:
post 173
post 112

And my reasoning is in this one:
post 194

@CF Riot: Why ask me as opposed to at least 2 others that have not posted their reasoning so far? Just curious.

Well I have a natural tendency for longer posts because that is how I read the game best and I have encountered many people who don't like those. I don't really think it matters about number of posts (or how large the posts are) but what matters is content. That said, if I received requests to change how I posted I would do so for clarity sake and not be hardheaded about "its my post style dammit, take it or take off". Why are you down with gaining clarity by signing posts because your in a hydra but not down for changing the rest of your posting style when asked? And why are you promoting being policy lynched.... this is just going to be a serious detractor to getting reads done.

I really dislike 2s attitude (posting style is fine, and the attitude is shared by both heads). But I would rather look at other things rather then this whole thread being about how 2 is burying the thread.

Since you have encountered many people who don't like your tendency for longer posts, you may understand that these people favor shorter posts such as mine. That is, while it is true that I have received requests to change how I post in this game, there are also people - at the very least in other games - who like my style of posting. Since I'm not going to adjust my posting style in every single game (that's my decision; feel free to disagree with this), it boils down to my own preference. I find the shorter posts more convenient because I post a lot and by posting a lot, having to avoid making many posts as well would entail a lot of time spent on formatting.

You bring up what matters being content. I fully agree with this point. I think that I do post plenty of content, even if I also make many posts that doesn't contain content in a strict sense.

I'm down with gaining clarity by signing posts because it's quite easy, takes minimal time, and actually makes a big difference. I'm not down with changing my style of posting entirely because it takes time and makes minimal difference (at least the way I see it).

I'm not promoting being policy lynched, I'm just not being a doormat to avoid it. I don't particularly care when people vote me for arbitrary and/or silly reasons, including policy. If people think they can bully me into doing something that suits them by threatening with policy votes, they're simply wrong.

I'm sorry that you dislike my attitude, but I do think I understand from your perspective. I'd also rather look at different things than the supposed importance of my posting style, but I think people are currently exaggerating the influence of my posting style and using it as an excuse for not reading carefully, not making reads and making silly votes.

- b

Fair enough. Don't be down on yourself then and get frustrated. Play your game.

I also REALLY agree with your last line there.

2 is town read for me.

[Sajin]

http://www.lexiophiles.com/english/the- ... politeness

Cultural meta? Really?

[Sajin]

@AngstyMatters: I still don't understand the the http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 3#p4935373 286 link. I asked you a question about it, you did not respond. You just shifted lines of thought completely. Was that your other head?

but you arent going to unvote me or think i look town because of me addressing you and bugging you to vote someone else. I could throw more words at Saijin but I think you already understand why I think hes scum from what Ive posted so far. you will unvote me if you think i look town because I look town because of my opinions on the rest of the game, and id bet some pretty decent money on you voting saijin once that happens.

Your reasoning has basically copied what others have had to say. I want to know what your reasons are for wanting to vote metal sonic in the original post I called you out for rather than you parroting what others have said because it is convenient for you.

Also there is one I in my name.

nacho, just to clarify: your point system is ranking the "scumminess" of the player, am I right?

nacho is definitely town; if i havent said that alreadys

Why?

@Metal Sonic: What is your opinion of gammagooey?

@Magua I have not made mechanical arguments. Though, you should know I love doing that having played with you in Stars Aligned and lynching your scum play in part for having a crappy view of mechanics. But hydra discussion is not mechanic discussion. So for a question, do you remember Stars Aligned and in your opinion how has your play changed since then?

@HP leaves- I guess I wrote it as a statement not a question but I asked: do you think there is day talk for scum in this game?

[Sajin]

@AngstyMatters: I still don't understand the the http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 3#p4935373 286 link. I asked you a question about it, you did not respond. You just shifted lines of thought completely. Was that your other head?

nope. tbh "cultural meta? really?" sounds rhetorical, i mean the only probable response is "yes i did use cultural meta". If you wanted a response a better question would've been 'Why are you using cultural meta to scumhunt?'

Ugh, 1 day and already 7 pages popped up, that downed my attention for a while.

i am a lazy player

excuses to explain away previous inactivity ^.^

Well then how about answering the question instead of being stubborn about it. I don't really understand the point of this response to me.

[Sajin]

Your reasoning has basically copied what others have had to say. I want to know what your reasons are for wanting to vote metal sonic in the original post I called you out for rather than you parroting what others have said because it is convenient for you.

Find a single post in this entire game that's saying what I did here and quote it for me please. And you haven't bothered answering the question I asked you in the quote either.

@saijin- I get that you think *reasons* is bad and since you're voting me instead of just whining about it like you did with other players im gonna make some crazy assumptions that you think its more likely to come from scum than town. Why do you think that?

See because I think that your boring pointless-informationy 1st post is more likely to come from scum than town since it consists of a semi-game related comment that looks like relevant content without actually being useful to the game at all, and the posts after it share those almost-related comments that I think are an actually decent scumtell for early game shenanigans.

Because my best reads come from associative tells. Someone unwilling to provide said reasons yet state they have some reason is not being forthcoming about it and I find it a great place to vote because not only is it scummy but it also provides better reads on other players. Since then I think you reacted odd to pressure and thus my vote remains.

The alternative to this would be to let people post accusations without reasoning. Do you really promote that?

As for Sonic it was his iso#1, the post commented on the game instead of actually interacting with the players in it or giving an opinion and although it's more common in chat mafia games talking about the game from an outside perspective is way more likely to be coming from scum looking in on the game with better knowledge than the town has. Looking back at it though I dont think it was actually as bad as it looked given that Nibelung had just commented on Sonic and RVS specifically and its partially referring to that instead of just being an outside comment.

Better reasoning but why not post this instead of "I have reasons"? Do you disagree with my response above?

@AngstyMatters I can't tell which of you is posting what and I tend to ask a lot of questions to almost everyone in the thread not all of which are directly relevant. The content of the answer is not always what I am looking for but sometimes the attitude or what is not stated in the answer. Evidently others call this filler content but it works for me and my playstyle. I still expect an answer (from your other head, if needs be). I think it is reasonable to answer questions directed at you.

[Sajin]

@AngstyMatters I can't tell which of you is posting what and I tend to ask a lot of questions to almost everyone in the thread not all of which are directly relevant. The content of the answer is not always what I am looking for but sometimes the attitude or what is not stated in the answer. Evidently others call this filler content but it works for me and my playstyle. I still expect an answer (from your other head, if needs be). I think it is reasonable to answer questions directed at you.

Is this a joke? I literally don't understand how you can say this seriously

You just said that you asked the question not even to see my answer but to gauge my ATTITUDE. My attitude in responde to your "content filler" question was that it was inane and it makes me think you're shitting the thread with pointless material because you're scum. If you're looking for a polite response to your question, then you are deliberately asking for a polite attitude which defeats the apparent purpose of you asking the rhetorical question in the first place, which was to gauge MY attitude

Your line of reasoning makes literally no sense, you are pulling shit out of your ass

This is still not an answer. You are being hypocritical here also: if you think "filler content" is useless, then why are you prolonging this discussion rather than a simple answer? Not that I think its filler content at all because it helps me get a read, yes, even with your belligerence. But hey whatever, I doubt I am going to get a response for either of these questions so lets ask a different one that you might be more interested in answering:

Why would I be "looking for a polite response/attitude" to my question, in your opinion? Do you think I auto equate belligerence with scummyness?


I assume this is Matt's head, yes? If so, I would like Matt's response please.

I'm 75% sure that Rem is town at this point.

75% is quite low. I'm very much expecting less than 25% of the players in this game to be scum, which would mean that 75% certain that he's scum would be lower than default probability.

- b

There is a word swapped here probably but I get what you are saying. I agree with the comment although I think having Remilia say remembrance is 75 percent town does help everyone understand her position better so I think there is still a point to it.

(as a side note, I hate these names being so similar especially with someone, Remilia Scarlet, who could be abbreviated as Rem, using Rem to abbreviate Remembrance)

Read literally every single game I've ever played with Nacho

in which we have shared alignment

and you'll see that we often work together, put faith in each others reads and generally do so to great succes. I'm sure he'll testify of this if you ask him.

X

And how, exactly, do you know you have a shared alignment? I will respond to that other shit after me final.

I am fairly sure its a self meta quote not a reference to this game. Agree?

[Sajin]

post_id=4946793 time=1368272258 user_id=10128 post_num=667]

Metal Sonic has to start posting some analysis and put out more votes. From where I look, he has near zero interest in scumhunting and he just gives out town reads (to be fair, he also gave one scumread, which he didn't follow after anyway). So here goes

VOTE: Metal Sonic

Damn I'm tired

You are correct.

Ask me a question

I posted this quite a while ago:

@Metal Sonic: What is your opinion of gammagooey?

I find it odd that gamma made a soft attack on you in the thread early today and that I have had a direct question posed at you concerning gammagooey for quite awhile with no reply. Both of you have avoided each other today. What do you think of any of that?

[Sajin]

Although I should probably vote Gammagooey because Vi said so.. hmm.. VOTE: Gammagooey

I wish I had a double vote

Also to whoever asked why Sajin wasn't listed as a town read - I forgot him. But yes I do think Sajin is town.

I asked that.
Could you elaborate on your Vi, squared, [hp] leaves and Nibelung town reads as I also asked in that same post?

Lastly, after iso-ing CF Riot, he displays mild fluff tendencies but I cannot confirm alignment yet. Requesting someone else's reads on him.

also maxous is horrible he is up on the scum list(no worse than me, but hey scapegoat!)

Two wrongs don't make a right and 'hey scapegoat' opens a tin of WIFOM that I'd rather not get into.

Who do you suspect right now and why?

Hey Kalimar, you are asking for a lot of peoples reads on various people without posting a while lot of your own. I think it is reasonable that if you are expecting others to provide reads, to provide some of your own reads.

According to your 599 you say you only have tentative reads at this point, even if your not sure, lets see a bit more of your thought process.

(Will be offline for mothers day most likely)

[Sajin]

Hey Kalimar, you are asking for a lot of peoples reads on various people without posting a while lot of your own. I think it is reasonable that if you are expecting others to provide reads, to provide some of your own reads.

Sajin, can you tell me the point of this comment?
Are you even reading Kalimar's posts in this game?

listing who rememberance is going above in scum reads is really unceccessary- it seems like justification just for the sake of having it.

Yeah, the comment sounded a bit forced + unnecessary to me also actually.

I want to know thoughtprocess because my best reads come from associative tells. Yes I was reading Kalimar's posts and they were mostly questions based on other reads. Kalimar has since answered because I am sure even he realized that he did not really have many opinions in the thread. I was attributing it to Kalimar's stated lack of experience in large theme games. Maxous, have you read Kalimar's posts pre my comment? Additionally, why are you asking me why I made this comment when you make extremely similar ones such as the following quote:

-10, #732 (Gamma)

Can I get a rationale for this pls?

^ good vote.

If this is a good vote made by thenewearth (for voting gamma) then why are you voting thenewerth, the guy you just complimented? That does not make much sense at all any way you look at it. Mind explaining your thoughts here?

[Sajin]

@Oversoul - thanks for posting your rationale. I wanted to see that you hadn't made up the townreads on the fly and weren't question dodging. I agree that some of the hydra heads are laying quite low right now and I'd like to hear more from them, particularly on the leading wagons.

I want to know thoughtprocess because my best reads come from associative tells. Yes I was reading Kalimar's posts and they were mostly questions based on other reads. Kalimar has since answered because I am sure even he realized that he did not really have many opinions in the thread. I was attributing it to Kalimar's stated lack of experience in large theme games. Maxous, have you read Kalimar's posts pre my comment? Additionally, why are you asking me why I made this comment when you make extremely similar ones such as the following quote:

This isn't really accurate. I've given my interpretation on a few events - do these not count as opinions?

Maxous' post isn't that similar - you asking me for reads when I ask "a lot of other people" (two other people) for who they think are scum is not equivalent to asking Nacho to elaborate on a particular point on his points list.

I count at least 30 questions in your ISO - and most of your followups to your questions are to ask more questions. I have slightly under half that with a similar post count. I don't see that you've actually gone anywhere with a lot of them. If you have, you haven't shown many of your findings to the thread. A couple of your posts are you going into debt-collector mode asking why people haven't answered your questions - but when you don't actually give anything back to the thread I don't see why they should.

Are you actually going to comment on my 'thought process' at all?

Interpretations of events count as opinions but you did not have many (pre last post). Your good now. I still think my interpretation of your posts was accurate.

I will wait to answer the rest of this after Maxous responds. Additionally, I would appreciate it if you did not answer questions directed at other people. Now I will probably have to find a better question to get him to post meaningful content because its likely he will just steal your answer.

And I did not really have a comment to make on your general reads post. Did you have a specific question?

Just because an artist is ugly, does not mean their art is ugly. It was his first lucid act of this game. It made sense. There was a certain lack of self-awareness, yes (Since he is essentially doing the same thing to Gamma as he accuses Gamma of doing to him). He also conveniently 'forgot' to vote Gamma until he got pressured for his poor vote and poorer justification for it. Still, he has justification for that vote. Therefore, it was a good vote.

Something is bugging me.

I just find it odd that you would compliment a vote made by the person you think is scum. If you think thenewearth is scum, then how can he have justification? Its not an artist, you just accused him of being a forger and then complimented him on his forged artwork piece. It does not make sense. Can you explain how he has justification in your opinion considering you also think he is scum?

I find it odd that gamma made a soft attack on you in the thread early today and that I have had a direct question posed at you concerning gammagooey for quite awhile with no reply. Both of you have avoided each other today. What do you think of any of that?

My opinion on gammagooey is that he seems like a noob vanilla town to me. I have doubts that he is scum and believe that he is most probably a town-aligned-badplayer

I avoid (almost) everyone. There's no need to read too much into it.

He is not a new player. Can you explain in a bit more detail why you feel gamma is town if he is a new player?

Additionally, what part of gamma's play did you think was bad in order for you to attribute "town-aligned-badplayer" to him?

[Sajin]

Terrible hammer. And Metal Sonic did not even respond to my question before hammering. Responding would of been cool.

Not really a point to end the thread that early in the day. A short day 1. Curious as to the flip of Gamma.

Now I am typing up a proper post to respond to some of the questions directed at me.

[Sajin]

@Sajin - I will agree that I didn't post that many direct -reads- but I have given several -opinions- which are admittedly tempered in absolute number by my fairly low post count. But the idea that I was heckling loads of other people for their scum-reads and not giving any of my own was false - I was pretty clear on my view on Metal Sonic. I thought you were going somewhere asking me to post my reads - the fact you have no opinion whatsoever on them and my 'thought process' you wanted to see is a bit weird. I'll look forward to your reply to the rest of the post and Remembrance's question at that.

@Gamma - What do you think about the elephant in the room (being at L-2 and the likely lynch of today)?

Then you can think it is weird. I agree its different from the traditional logical falicy this and meta that and other traditional reads. I am usually a big meta player but unfortunately I only have experience with few people in this game (Vi, nacho, Magua, gamma and I think I might have played with hp before). You were hard to read for me to place with associative tells and thats why I asked.

Regarding Maxous and you, you were 2 of my most null reads and I was simply trying to fix that. I think your town and Maxous is still extremely null to me even after seeing numerous posts by him.

@Saijin, your questions. I don't see an actual town motivation from them. I don't see the angle where someone is going to reveal alignment related information from answering them, nor do I see a possible lead in as a conversation starter. Unless someone who is exceptionally good at being frank, clear, and/or friendly these questions lead no where specific.

I ask a question to your question: What do you hope to gain from these question, and how did you hope to reveal anyone's alignment from them?

To answer your question, the difference is null of course. Is a creative writer any less creative just because he might be lying? If he's town, it was a good vote for a good reason. If he's scum it was a good vote because it could be misconstrued as a town motivated vote given his reasoning.

Either way, good vote.

Sorry I don't operate the same way everyone else does. I hope to find associations between players. I am generally very very good at figuring out scum towards the end of games and I think this line of questioning helps that.

Lastly, I disagree with your assessment. You can't just step away from your point of view to appreciate in the absolute. If you could, there would not really be behavioral differences between alignments in a mafia game now would there? On one hand, a town player might have a gut feeling to point out good justification for something. On another hand it might represent a conflict of viewpoint for a scum player. I dislike my lack of meta knowledge for this player list.

Curious as to the flip of Gamma.

Why did you say this?

Because it affects how I view metal sonic and a few other people.

@Sajin: -

Yes I did read Kalimar's posts. It was pretty clear who he suspected.
"I want to know his thought-process" - when you are referencing #599

To answer your question: I asked you that because the comment in #696 looks suspiciously like you just are nitpicking nonsense for the sake of it, implying Kalimar was being hypocritical with his play.

Why were you trying show me up as being hypocritical also with the question? Does it matter? Is hypocrisy scummy?

No I was not. I was just hoping you would explain your viewpoint more.

Its also not hypocritical if you are willing to answer the question (or a similar question in this case) that you yourself are trying to ask. But yes it was similar.


How is asking someone for an opinion ever nonsense?

[Sajin]

I dislike AngtsyMatters voting record and just general post content. I feel like he was trying to actively take away from the gamma wagon too.

Vote AngstyMatters

[Sajin]

hopefully i won't get lynched over the logic of "experienced player nails scum so all their reads are accurate", at least apply some critical thinking about the likelihood of my posts coming from town or scum. Likewise, hoping my arguments aren't devalued because i was wrong about gamma.

I'm lynching you because MattP's been close to non-existent in posting in your hydra, whereas he's been plenty active elsewhere on site, and disinterested MattP is the same thing I saw in Gay Mafia II.

Disinterested, but not a non-presence. That scum MattP was in thread posting shit plenty, whereas this MattP is completely leaving his partner out to dry with posting as scum. I also don't seem to recall him making promises that he'd get into the game constantly; that read more to me like he was trying to kick himself into gear and just not making it whereas he was consistently underwhelming in Gay Mafia II but really didn't talk about it at all. I've also been a pretty big fan on 4nxi3ty's posting lately. Have you found issue with it?

I dislike AngtsyMatters voting record and just general post content. I feel like he was trying to actively take away from the gamma wagon too.

Vote AngstyMatters

And hp, I think that we can all agree that this was definitely the shittiest hop on the AM wagon.

@Nacho, so you disagree with AM distracting from gamma wagon several times? He ended his vote on Rem Scarlet (likely town because of kurapika), He voted 2, dead town earlier in the day and myself (who I know to be town). Thats 3 votes(2 for everyone else) that were on town. If you think it is a shitty vote, you must disagree with the assertion that AM was distracting from gamma wagon, right? (Maxous goes into a detailed post analysis for AM distracting from gamma wagon in 944)

You also think my vote was worse than a couple of the others? Please.

Nacho, what do you think about Metal Sonic?

@AM: I still want to hear Matts explanation. He still never answered the questions I had for him day 1 and since he stopped posting in the game his hydra partner has not really talked about Matts play and posts and seems unable to post reasoning as to why Matt did what he did.

Angsty's attempt to get people off the Gamma wagon seems very genuine.

What can be genuine about it? Explain.

Actually, to be more specific on metal sonic.

His thought process, as explained by him (and put into another form) would be:

Premise 1, Gammagooey is acting like a newbie vanilla town member.
Premise 2, Gammagooey isn't a newbie.
Premise 3, Gammagooey is more likely to be scum than to be town if he's acting like a newbie vanilla town and isn't a newbie.
Conclusion, Gamma is scum.

I might be slightly misphrasing it, but that's my understanding. Now, I'm not saying the premises are valid. I'm not saying the conclusion follows from the premises. I'm not saying this argument is enough to justify a hammer without a claim. I'm not saying Metal Sonic should have hammered gamma. I'm saying that:

(1) I think for a relatively new-to-MS player (his join date is in february) I can buy this as a genuine thought process;

(2) I feel like it would be awkward to use this process to bus as scum, because, as odd as it sounds, i feel like scum doing this would feel like they were being a dick. I feel like it would feel like kind of a dick move to bus your partner with the logic "this person is acting like a newbie but isn't" or at least it would feel condescending. I'm not saying it

is

a dick move - I'm saying that i feel like, if i was tempted to bus using that logic, I would be somewhat dissuaded from the fact that I would feel like i was being kind of a dick.

(3) Metal-sonic-town explains the hammer better than metal-sonic-scum. It's much more parsimonious to say "Metal sonic is town who was following through with his earlier stated threat to hammer gammagooey" than it is to say "Metal sonic is scum who was willing to flip 180 on his partner based on next-to-nothing, in a way that would likely feel like it would be perceived as suspicious, and then quickhammer him without letting him use the fakeclaims that I'm sure the scum have."

(4) The way in which metal sonic made the argument felt genuine, and I can "see into his thought process" in a way. In other words, I think his actions indicate that he was genuinely thinking about the game and trying to figure out gamma's alignment, rather than trying to manufacture fake thoughts (which scum will have to do).

Enough detail?

I like this reasoning. While I was not a fan of ending the day so early I can see that the hammer could easily be from town Metal Sonic. I agree, Metal and Gamma pair is unlikely.

[Sajin]

meh probly town.

after all the effort in pushing ^2, toasty wondering if he is wrong due to playstyle feels like a town thought process.

and don't really see scum making a comment like this about a buddy who is about to be lynched:

Also, gamma vs newearth just feels like a sidenote to me. I don't have a strong opinion on either one of them. ie, there are better people to be goin after.

@AM- Where did Toasty wonder if he was wrong? Are you just refering this quote or was there something else?

@AM: I still want to hear Matts explanation. He still never answered the questions I had for him day 1 and since he stopped posting in the game his hydra partner has not really talked about Matts play and posts and seems unable to post reasoning as to why Matt did what he did.

PLEASE show me a SINGLE worthwhile question you asked me D1 and I'll answer it

@AM (Matt)-You know the question. The same one you spit back in my face and refused to answer day 1. Its up to me if I find it worthwhile...not you. While your at it, opinion of CF Riot please. Preferably from the Matt head.



@Nacho-The hammer was indeed terrible, I still thought I had a gamma scum tell, but I wanted the day to go on for longer because it would generate more reads and the awkward wording was because I rushed that post to get it out during twilight hours. Pretty sure that covers everything you brought up.

would a scum team be able to coach sonic to hammer correctly? maybe, depends on their teamwork, how active the daytalk qt is, and how likely it is for sonic to make his own decisions.

If they have teamwork that is good enough to go "hey, let's bus gamma", I think Sonic would figure out to follow along.

I thought you just said Sonic was "town as fuck" and now your back on Sonic bussing a few posts later? Is this part of two different theories or what?

Also CF is scummy as all hell this game.

I am not in disagreement here, but care to explain?

Alright, I'm back!

So I don't think the Gamma scum flip in any way clears Metal Sonic.

@Metal: Were you aware that Gamma was at L-1 when you voted him?

Don't judge till you see the flip !

yes that was a scummy post, but flips are always very fun and exciting, and I hope you agree

All I did was to lynch scum using my scumhunting methods. Is that wrong?

lear

If it is not wrong to lynch scum, and if it is the right thing to do, then why in tarnation are you voting me???

The more he says things like this, the more convinced I am that he's scum. He keeps shoving it into our faces. "look at me! I got a scum right so I can't be scum!!!! You can't be mad at me for quick-lynching because I was right!!" And some of these were said BEFORE Gamma had even flipped. That makes me think he actually knew what the flip was going to be, and decided to distance himself from Gamma. Scum teams often use a teammate who is in trouble as a sacrifice to clear doubt from the other team members. And that is what I think is happening here.

Vote: MetalSonic

Regardless of the scum flip, voting someone without giving them a chance to claim is scummy.

Ok. You suspect metal sonic. Who else?

[Sajin]

@Nachomamma: on Sajin: Do you think ISO #8 and 9's Sajin commentary from Gamma was a bluff, then? It seems quite self-defeating to try and deflect attention onto another scum member like that at that early point of the game. It'd be early enough in the game to try something like that and distance from it - but it seems quite unambitious. In the Mafia in La La Land game his initial scumbuddy vote at the start was given a flimsy reason, was hopped off fairly fast and wasn't pushed anywhere near as much as the Sajin one was.

Actually, no. I'm rereading Sajin a bit, and I think that he's a false positive. I like my Magua and CF Riot and ToastyToast reads a whollle lot more.

Or you were pushing for me to measure your town cred earned from yesterday. Or you put too much faith in a poor point system. I still have outgoing questions to you from my last post. Need me to relist them?

[Sajin]

Metal Sonic bussing was a hypothetical and doesn't reflect my actual thoughts at all. Your other two questions were answered. One of them was answered in the post you quoted.

fair enough. Thanks. Now I just want to wait for Matt and CF to become alive again.

[Sajin]

Saijin thoughts,

My problems with Saijin's scum hunting and his argument that this is just the way he plays as town is the way in which he asks questions. While, he is looking for connections between players (and has been very consistent in doing so) his questions seem to have an inborn bias. For example, he couldn't "see"anyway that what I said was town motivated, rather, that my position was impossible. What this implies is that it must be scum motivated. Though, that's a false dilemma, I've seen other players convince themselves that what is not town motivated must = scum motivation. Now, here is my problem, he is investigating associative motivations while simultaneously expressing his opinion. By doing so, he taints both the player's response and the perception of the player by the others. And is pretty much a soft push in effect if not in intention. This bugs me, since it is essentially painting at the same time as hunting for associations. I like the idea, but I don't like how it's being practiced. His overall body of work has points being given and points being taken away. He seems a bit stiff, for lack of a better word. I think his brazenness is a point toward him being town.

For example of how he sometimes uses questions, look at post 255 which is just a bunch of hurled questions that are not geared toward finding anything out from others so much as he is using it as a rhetorical device. Which is completely screwing with my ability to read him.

All that for a big null read. Something that bugs me also is the way he artificially lengthens his posts by using a lot more spaces than he needs to. I know it might seem like: "Wtf does that have to do with scum hunting" (this is not the same thing as making large posts, which are perfectly fine, I am saying he often hits enter twice or even three times) but I'm under the impression that big posts + skims of them = "he's trying at least" which is semi-protecting him when scum hunting would be better. His cases against players are also exceptionally weak which gives him a lot of space to back off if he wants to. But he is insistent and consistent in asking questions which has sometimes lead to interesting results, but most of the time not.

Its probably because I played a lot of #mafia Xylbot IRC chat mafia. I have 750 games post stat reset and I think I had over 1000 before the stat reset. My methods work for me and yeah they are different from standard forum play. I am a lot more used to having to accurately find a read in a few short interactions.

I separate my posts for clarity in addressing a different person usually or just because its a different thought. If you have any other questions, let me know.

Ok. You suspect metal sonic. Who else?

Read the fucking game, figure it out yourself.
And since I was wrong about squared, you move up in my scum list. congratz. Because you throw shit at everyone and just wait for something to latch on.

Why is it someone else's job to figure out who you suspect? Sorry, its your job to explain it to everyone else.

Sure, you suspect me. Where am I waiting for something to latch onto? Explain?

Also who moved down because you moved me up in your scum list?

- Squared was town and also suspected TT. I think this would be a good reason for TT to want squared out of the picture. This is conjectural as there are other reasons I can think of for squared dying, but it's a possibility.

Because ^2's argument on me was just oh-so-threatening. . And yeah, there are a lot of other possibilities so this point is kind of meh.
1) we don't even know if ^2 was killed by scum
2) He didn't exactly scream obvtown
3) Its all hypothetical. Scum could just as easily have killed ^2 because it makes the suspicion on me go up quite a bit. Like, A LOT, actually.

And really your wifoming about the nightkill? WTF.

How can you simultaneously think 2s case on you was BS but then also think the kill on you makes the suspicion on you go up quite a bit?

[Sajin]

I'm not complaining about your playstyle Saijin. I'm saying that your playstyle has two sides of it. Obviously if you're scum you're still going to say "I use associative tells to hunt scum in the end game" if only to avoid contradicting your meta. From what I've gotten of your style, it seems survivalistic in nature, since you don't take any firm positions and you say you have a high success rate as the game goes on (implying you should be kept alive on the gamble you are town so that you can make sense of those associations to capture the rest of the scum team). What I have a problem with is...Well let me put it this way in the form of an accusation: : You're using your style of hunting for associations as a cover for feeling out players and asking questions to get an idea of how to manipulate the game. This isn't a playstyle witch hunt, it's simply an observation that you're using your style sub-optimally when it could be much more towny than it currently is by keeping information to yourself and asking questions that aren't loaded to the gills for improved results (and taking positions and all that good stuff).

Can you please link some of your recently completed scum and town games Saijin? I think it will help me get a better idea if I'm just blowing smoke or not. I need something to compare this game with your other games. Thanks.

I have not played on site during the last 2 or so years. So completed forum mafia games are going to be a bit old but that is all there is and I will tell you that my playstyle changed a bit from back then. I might be able to find some pastebins from #mafia but I don't have any personally.

I am playing in 4 games including this one at this time. Can't link to these.

Here are some theme examples from forum games here, and I think none of these are on my outdated wiki page:
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=12218 (Town, Was actually a town cop but false claimed as a tracker because I had no useful results being scum roleblocked one night following 2 misslynches days 1 and 2. What happened after that was awesome for us)
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=12352 (Town, secret unkillable, endgamed to a draw, sk should of won though, I was also heavily wagoned by scum in one of the mid days but no lynched thus combined with unkillable made me reach endgame with both mafia and SK pitching that they were the SK and deserved the win on the last day)
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=11674 (Town)
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=12809 (Town)

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=11259 (Scum false mass cop, CCed real mass cop and somehow still made it to endgame)

You can check my wiki if you want some more links but they are all going to be 2-4 years ago.


@Toasty- Its not that I am not reading the game. I am just hoping you would help implicate people rather than targeting people that are easy to make small cases on. Its like cookie cutter content. So lets try a different direction: Whats your opinion on Syryana?

Also:

- The way he hopped on the squared wagon (#99). The WIFOM discussion that resulted from that really felt like noise and I didn't see it to be a very strong reason in itself.

WIFOM is one of the main things I use to catch scum. People wouldn't accept this, so I had to keep talking about it.

3) And you know you can hide behind this easily. Why not kill him?

Nacho, that's exactly why I'm saying basing a scum read on "possibilities" can't be done. Why not kill him? Why kill him? Why not kill him if they will think it'd be too obvious for me to kill him and therefore won't kill him? See my point? You aren't going to get anywhere using such an argument.

How do you "use WIFOM to catch scum then" not "get anywhere using [WIFOM]"? I am not seeing something your saying or its a contradiction.




@Matt: When you get back to the thread and answer my question from day 1, opinion of toasty as well please.

[Sajin]

He also addressed Magua and Kitty in his last few posts. Both of those posts were essentially asking "Are you town?"

This is a stretch. Like a huge one.

Wish I could poke an individual hydra head.

[Sajin]

Matt is not going to answer me is he. This is why I hate hydras. One head says they don't know why the other head said something and the other is not there to even answer.

V/LA for memorial day weekend.

[Sajin]

That is a hard question that is killing me right now. I've meta'd him. I've read his iso twice. I'm trying to get a feel for him by talking to him. I just don't know. If this wasn't a holiday, the inactivity would be making me think that we've hit town and the scum are taking a happy backseat, but it is, so, I can't use that as a reference point. He has said things that make me think he is town (such as the "not understanding me" stuff, the "don't let these two people get away with this stuff" and his early involvement in his cases, felt emotionally invested in. There are equally as many scummy things that are bugging me as well, such as his slow updating of his reads, the "I'm reading you as town Nacho" which is something that is blatantly suggesting that if I'm town reading you, you have no reason to come my way. And his wifom defense for the NK kill pointing toward him, it's straight out of a scum hand book. But I've also heard town say this (Delta from the cult game).

I'm going to go with "I don't know" Which equals a null read.

I want to hear from Saijin, and hp, and I'd like people to comment on the Syrana thing (post 1174)

MS was more productive. I'm reading him as town.

I don't see anything special from syrana's 1174. Its town tell if anything but it is really not that strong imo.

TNE is moronic for the claim, but town. AM is still scum. Joy.... can't believe you let this scum rolefish already. RS is completely on track in 1350.

I am ok with a toasty lynch.


@Kalimar- It is not unlikely town would have a jailkeeper in a heavy power game. Flavor makes sense too.

@AM- You planning to claim flavor, scum? Or are you going to be snarky about it like the other questions directed at you.

[Sajin]

Why the fuck would a toasty hammer sound "tasty" after I just claimed TNE is scum

This isn't a fucking gambit, I'm not calling for a claim I am now explicitly calling for a lynch. This is no longer gambit mode

Glad your calling for a lynch. Also glad your not sticking with the crappy gunsmith claim. It was obvious it was fake.

1: Lets say your town and telling the truth. Why do we need to lynch on this today? If you indeed are in a 1 for 1 then scum will have to use resources to stop more info and or kill you off. Your flip will give us more guaranteed info. Alternatively you live longer and provide more info. Win Win.

2: On the other hand if your scum, you misdirect a lynch onto a jailkeeper, take a lynch the following day or try and/or claim a redirect or something else that gave bad info. Lose Lose.

IMO the best course of action is to leave this alone and play the day game. Explain to me from my perspective why I should lynch out of TNE/AM today?

[Sajin]

Well TNE was absolutely caught lying there. Not what I expected but I will take the easy lynch.

Unvote

Vote: TNE

[Sajin]

Hey Sajin

Hey hey hey Sajin

Sajin

Hey Sajin

Suck my cock :*

Your really hardheaded you know.

[Sajin]

@AM: I don't really care if you tell us anything I suppose, but you claimed scum know your role existed and that you knew they knew (or at least that is what I read). Would you mind enlightening town on what scum already knows since you claimed that? If not, I suppose thats ok for now.

I want to lynch contentless, reasonless CF Riot before anyone else.

Vote: CF Riot

I can do leaves before maxous. Either is fine with me.

@MonkeyMan I never got around to the vote but I had TNE as scum yesterday if that changes anything.

Content like this. F grade post.

[Sajin]

There's nothing wrong with that post.

Your right, there is nothing wrong with scum being good with lynching 2 people, trying to gain cred post lynch for saying "hey I thought he was scum too!"; combine that with 1 part trying to counterwagon against gamma's lynch and 1 part lack of conviction in general and you get a great recipe for scum worthy of the deepest part of the pond.

[Sajin]

That's all great speculation on your part, but almost none of that comes from the post you quoted. Suspecting more than one person isn't unusual at all. Saying I was suspect of TNE isn't me trying to take credit for anything. MM brought up the fact that I didn't vote her, I pointed out my stance in favor of her lynch. I'm not the least bit surprised that I'm a suspect on a lot of people's radar and I get that, but I'm telling you the post you quoted isn't a scumpost so you're either looking at what I say through scum-tinted glasses or just looking for an excuse to be on a wagon you see forming.

Right because not even you could fit all of that scummyness into one post. That was a summary of your play throughout the game with only the first 2 points coming from that post.


What I don't get is how you are not surprised you are a suspect and then want to criticize me for suspecting you.

Also the last line does not make sense to me, either I am scum or am looking for an excuse? Why would I be looking for an excuse as town?

could not wait til hp leaves was off v/la before wagoning, huh? ._.
yeah he is easily the best lynch for today

@AM: I don't really care if you tell us anything I suppose, but you claimed scum know your role existed and that you knew they knew (or at least that is what I read). Would you mind enlightening town on what scum already knows since you claimed that? If not, I suppose thats ok for now.

scum know our abilities: track or watch at night, can't use same action twice in a row. And that we know that they know that we know that they know.

~~~

Is mass claiming optimal play here?

scum lost their disruptive roles

we have already claimed, and I don't imagine there being a stronger investigative role.

I am fine with you calling someone out if you wish and having them claim if you think it is wise. I do not think MC is the correct play. There are more roles than hard informational roles that are worth chilling with.

[Sajin]

Very little. There's a sadly large number of people that I'm null on because they just blend together in my mind, and Riot is one of them. I blame Hito for not making me a vig like he promised.

I'm getting bored because we're not quicklynching hp. Am I still a null that blends together in your mind?

I do think the connection b/w hpleaves and TNE is suspect and scummy, but its not enough for me to vote him. At least not now. I still have a strong gut town read on him.
Plus he's on V/LA so its not really worth pushing atm.

What caused that gut read?

If there's more than that I don't know about it.

We've been out of touch all game and you seem to be the epitome of a scumcoaster? But while we're waiting for hp to die, you can change my mind! What are your reads? What are your feelings?

Last time I checked no one else has given all of their reads in light of the TNE flip. Fuck off.

But that's mainly because we're quicklynching hp. You're not.
Soooo

I could make you unbored.... But I would much rather more people examine CF riot. Besides HP leaves on vacation is kinda pointless to vote unless the plan is quicklynching...which I am not a huge fan of.

[Sajin]

I could make you unbored.... But I would much rather more people examine CF riot. Besides HP leaves on vacation is kinda pointless to vote unless the plan is quicklynching...which I am not a huge fan of.

what about CF do you want to examine with me?

I just like exploring more avenues than rushing the day down is all. I guess it can wait though.

Intent.

[Sajin]

Screw it.

Vote: HP Leaves

[Sajin]

I think whoever (if anyone) was in a QT with Vi should claim. That way we at least know who she targeted, and when.

vote:CFriot

yeh having 3 of your 5 scumreads as "dunno" is pretty bad. There's probably only 1-2 scums left anyway

Poor play claiming it was not you.

Also, whoever was actually in the QT with vi probably has a really good breadcrumb. Additionally what good would having this claim out right now serve?

Also we know there are exactly 2 scum left. Was the point of saying "1-2 scums left" an attempt to sound more townish? Check the first post.



My main complaint about CF Riot was not providing any content. He got better today and in response to some pressure yesterday. Its enough to make me want to lynch elsewhere.

@Magua- you are only analyzing end of day vote counts and not mid day vote counts.

@Kalimar: Why is 3 mafia votes on a 4 person wagon unlikely exactly?

@AM: I really don't see MS as scum.

[Sajin]

I don't have anything to back this up but I also kind of guessed that there are scum roles who could also carry out the hit if they wished if I put it on town.

I can't think of any flavor justification for this.

@Sajin: What do you think of Maxous right now?

Maxous kinda fell off the map for me after day 1. I could see that as scum being unhappy about the progression of the game. Vote history is not stellar either.

Vote: Maxous

@CF Riot: What ability type is your ability?

[Sajin]

@Sajin:

@Magua- you are only analyzing end of day vote counts and not mid day vote counts.

If you could be less cryptic about the thing that you are seeing that you think I am not seeing, that'd be great.

The midday day 1 vote counts? I have only been talking about it for the last 2 days concerning CF Riot so I don't see how its cryptic at all. There was a wagon on 2 then there was a wagon formed on gamma and in response to that I got 4 votes. Then people left wagons to eventually got to Gamma and TNE wagons. The day ended with a TNE counterwagon to a gamma lynch. But the mid day vote count was the basis for me pressuring AM at the start of day 2 for example.

Coincidentally, Maxous was one of those voters.

Thoughts on Maxous, Magua?

[Sajin]

This (Remilia and nacho) is town on town. Your both pretty.

Also CF ability makes a lot of sense given this line:

Transcendent abilities are immune to all other actions and things that affect actions, and do not count towards any cap - if a Transcendent ability includes a component that must resolve in Action Resolution, it will resolve before any other abilities.

It makes sense that the hired assassin is given a chance to react to it.

I disagree with anyone else claiming though. No need.

[Sajin]

@Nacho: I would like to lynch Maxous over toasty by far. I think toasty is probably town actually.

[Sajin]

what artifact? did he mention anything about that?


or is that temple run

Nibel gave it to me n1 and I got paranoid and asked him what it was, and he just said it looks pretty. Bork mentioned it again in qt and I'm getting paranoid again.

Uh. K. The pretty comment was completely unrelated to anything having to do about artifacts. Not that I mind the information but I just want to be clear I did not receive an artifact of any kind.

@AK: one of [who] is scum?

[Sajin]

I thought Vi was too obvious a target for a night kill on N1(as in scum would expect Vi to be protected and therefore not target him for NK).
Sajin was the most town after Vi because of the interactions with Gamma and I thought he was a more realistic target for the scumteam.

LOL thats a pretty bad choice. Sajin was TOTES going to be killed day night 1 even though there was a clear push on him..

We're not running out of time or anything. Plenty of time to go after another lynch right? Another verifiable role.

Unvote:
Vote: Toasty

More bad logic. How is it verifiable? If we keep bouncing b/w people and then, after they claim, say, "oh lol claimed PR lets go elsewhere!" all you'll succeed in doing is outing a bunch of PR's or allow fake-claiming scumz to be temporarily "exempt" from a lynch.

1: I can see the logic of Maxous protecting me based on gamma's vote and how day 1 played out. Can you explain what you mean by clear push?

2: Also I find it really humorous that you quote Monkey's vote on you when you complain about bouncing around people considering you are already claimed and vanilla. It does not make sense to me.

Maxous, your not voting anyone. Fix it please.

Vote: CarbonFiber

I would like AK's response to my question and I need to reread some things.

[Sajin]

Proposition 1: Can we lynch toasty and have CF try to kill maxous? This way, just in case we are wrong, there is a doc protection for AM. Anything see anything wrong with that? (And carbon should obviously not protect maxous).

Proposition 2: I do not want carbon's ability to interfere with CF Riot's ability. So can we get the lynch settled and a claim from CF Riot about who he submitted on before we proceed to night?

Thoughts on those?

[Sajin]

Proposition 1: Can we lynch toasty and have CF try to kill maxous? This way, just in case we are wrong, there is a doc protection for AM. Anything see anything wrong with that? (And carbon should obviously not protect maxous).

That's carbon's job, isn't it?

Why not have both claimed docs available to protect at night? I see this as a superior percentage play. Agreed?

If that is the case, then we have the opposite problem - not being confirmable. Let's say that you tell us you will target Maxous, and the vig kills Maxous tonight. How does it prove that you are town? It could just as well be the case that the vig simply killed Maxous with no interference from your part.

~ F-16

Yes yes, role confirm does not mean alignment confirm. We are role confirming CF Riot for now. I think that the role exists because of the game rules though. But I feel like a test is a good thing.

[Sajin]

An Interrogator rolecops and jailkeeps their target.

A Clan Avenger roleblocks Troupe members and makes all protections on them fail. A Clan Avenger dies without blocking if they target a Hunter Association aligned player.

A Skill Hunter steals skills from other players, and can use them as long as that player is alive. He may also begin the game with stolen abilities.

A Skilled action does not count towards the "One active or factional ability per Night" rule.

A dominatrix targets a player and learns their alignment. She also gains a one-day QT with the target and can control the targets vote that day.

just going to quote hito's explanation of all of the power role flips throughout the game
wait what did i just say?
hito's... explanation... of all power role flips throughout the game.

We KNOW AM is a weird fucking power role.
Carbon's claimed one-shot 11x doctor.
CF is a joint vig thing.

and maxous claimed BODYGUARD
FUCKING. BODYGUARD.

And alternative perspective on this is that every role has a high correspondence to flavor. In that sense, Maxous' claim fits in because the lead bodyguard only bodyguards during the whole arc. So in that sense, while it is not as different as some of the others, it makes sense.

You also additionally assume there is only one protective role. Why?

Besides that your argument here is why you believe Maxous over Carbon Fiber. Fair enough.

But that does not really mean that Maxous lynch is the better percentage play. We have a claimed alive powerful informational role that due to interactions is really really really likely town. I would prefer to keep the status quo.

[Sajin]

Seems to me that giving the mafia information is bad in the long run. The town's interests are best served keeping the mafia guessing as much as possible.

I like the idea of us announcing who we won't protect. At worst, we make scum kill a suspect from a pool of 4 people that we want dead anyways.

Please include yourself in this list if you do this.

@Monkey: I disagree information is better in town's hands as scum will know more than the average townie. I think we probably are 1 day away from mass claim so we get a useful information download from AM. And actually now that I think about it I do not really see much of a downside to mass claim today. Up to AM imo could get more interesting track and watch results with more claims on table.

Face palm on dryfit's not using carbon's ability tonight. If that was going to happen it should be up to carbon fiber and we should be uninformed.

I will have limited access for this weekend.

[Sajin]

Why does Maxous lynch have to happen today? It does not. It is 16 alive and 2 scum left means 14 versus 2. That means a ton of time. The priority should be to gain information for later and not for rushing down claimed protective roles.

Vote: ToastyToast

I want to keep AM alive till massclaim. In this situation when we are so far ahead I am not going to lynch a protective role before we have an information download from AM.

Additionally how do you know scum has no roleblock? Is this balance reasons? Flavor reasons? Uvogin had a scream in the anime that I could easily see as a limited shot roleblock. Is this similar to the town only has one protective role reasoning?


Nacho I hate you soft claiming information to push this lynch. Your logic here is we have a mass doc so AM will be around yet..... your not willing to claim your own information about why you are pushing the Maxous lynch. If your town, you should not have any fear of surviving until tomorrow even if you claim today because of Carbon (mass protect) and AM (probably a higher priority target). You are also ok with mass claim tomorrow as you stated in a previous post so its not aversion to massclaim.

Scum Nacho on the other hand has a lot of incentive to lynch a protective role, deal with carbonfiber in some way and kill AM.

Thus if your town you should probably reveal your info on Maxous instead of soft pushing with "imformation". Or, you should be content with a toasty lynch and go to massclaim tomorrow where we can talk about this then. Alternatively, we should MC today but I would rather give AM the extra night.



Can we please play this game logically instead of haphazardly? 14 versus 2, Nacho.

[Sajin]

magua and cfriot are completely correct. It forces scum into a corner where they can't afford to leave us alive. In the process maxous' alignment will be confirmed.

This also assumes no roleblock but I wanted to see what Nacho replied to my post before extrapolating into this logic but I do agree with it. Nacho's theory of no roleblock and must lynch Maxous make no sense when combined unless he is doubting your alignment.

@Toasty- see the first post or the sign ups for the game. There are 5 scum total and no 3rd party. 14 v 2.

[Sajin]

Why does Maxous lynch have to happen today? It does not. It is 16 alive and 2 scum left means 14 versus 2. That means a ton of time. The priority should be to gain information for later and not for rushing down claimed protective roles.

Vote: ToastyToast

I want to keep AM alive till massclaim. In this situation when we are so far ahead I am not going to lynch a protective role before we have an information download from AM.

Additionally how do you know scum has no roleblock? Is this balance reasons? Flavor reasons? Uvogin had a scream in the anime that I could easily see as a limited shot roleblock. Is this similar to the town only has one protective role reasoning?


Nacho I hate you soft claiming information to push this lynch. Your logic here is we have a mass doc so AM will be around yet..... your not willing to claim your own information about why you are pushing the Maxous lynch. If your town, you should not have any fear of surviving until tomorrow even if you claim today because of Carbon (mass protect) and AM (probably a higher priority target). You are also ok with mass claim tomorrow as you stated in a previous post so its not aversion to massclaim.

Scum Nacho on the other hand has a lot of incentive to lynch a protective role, deal with carbonfiber in some way and kill AM.

Thus if your town you should probably reveal your info on Maxous instead of soft pushing with "imformation". Or, you should be content with a toasty lynch and go to massclaim tomorrow where we can talk about this then. Alternatively, we should MC today but I would rather give AM the extra night.



Can we please play this game logically instead of haphazardly? 14 versus 2, Nacho.

I was hoping for a bit more of a direct response here, Nacho. Instead you are trying to drum up maxous votes and have ignored this argument and other arguments presented in the thread.

tl,dr: Assuming both CarbonFiber and Angsty are town, lynching Maxous today 99.9% guarantees AM dies N5.

Not lynching Maxous-town means AM dies N6 at the earliest instead.

Not lynching Maxous-scum means either AM dies N5 and we lynch Maxous D6, or it means AM lives longer.

Here is the short version of Magua's arguement. AM made a similar one.

I must of missed the backlash uproar.
Nearly everyone else seemed content to sit back and just let it happen.

You think that the fact you defended Kalimar makes you town? Hell no.

He is trying to get people to just lynch me if they think I'm scummy instead of allowing me to protect AM to see if the scum would be willing to give up a mislynch in order to shoot AM.

They wouldn't be able to be able to kill AM anyways since CarbonFiber is already protecting him...

Can someone tell me why the CF Riot wagon disintegrated?

Can you vote Maxous?

Then we have a information role that is being roleblocked that is alive. That is better than AM dead.

I find you ignoring the arguments in the thread while still trying to drum up Maxous votes scummy as hell, Nacho.

[Sajin]

If you start from the assumption that I know how to play [1], this is a bad question: either I'm scum and posing, or I'm town and have a reason.

Meaning that you have a reason to give either way and I'd love to hear it. Some make you very likely town, which I would appreciate very much, others are useless.

I was hoping for a bit more of a direct response here, Nacho. Instead you are trying to drum up maxous votes and have ignored this argument and other arguments presented in the thread.

Yes, I'm trying to drum up Maxous votes because I want a Maxous lynch. I think this plan is horrendously, horrendously useless after further reflection. Maybe I'll be proven wrong later.

I find you ignoring the arguments in the thread while still trying to drum up Maxous votes scummy as hell, Nacho.

I responded. Not directly, but I responded. It's stupid that we're neglecting getting a good lynch today in order to let Maxous live for absolutely no reason. If you're wondering about my specific information, you're wondering about something that I'm going to keep under wraps. You'll know it tomorrow.

Fair enough. Then I will consider voting maxous tomorrow.

@Syryana any reasoning for that vote?

[Sajin]

Monkey I hope you realize that CF Riot has been asking for the hammer to use his role for so many posts.

We are lynching monkey period tomorrow. That is so bad.

Thank you for deciding to push AM. Today sucked.

[Sajin]

I am Basho, one of Neon Nostrade's bodyguards. I have an awesome Nen ability, whatever I write in Haiku format becomes true. But I am having writer's block and the strength behind my Haikus are not there.

No special abilities and VT.

I crumbed flavor in my first post of the game in my questions to Vi. It is written and formatted as a Haiku.





Also Kalimar is obviously town. I do not know what his first name is but I certainly know his last name. Some people do not read close enough. (This should become more obvious when he claims).

[Sajin]

Sajin

Syryana - Also think he's prob not scum, but I'd like him to claim earlier for *reasons*

CF Riot - I believe he's town now

Magua - I don't believe his interactions with Maxous were those of scum in a 2v14 setup

Amethyst Kitty
MonkeyMan576 - Also on lynch but hammer so I don't give that much of a fuck at all

Kalimar - Was on the lynch of a scum at 2v14, it's not impossible he's scum but he wasnt the hammer so I'd consider it

pedit: Ok, I can confirm that Sajin visited noone last night

You should probably wait on anything like this until everyone claims.

[Sajin]

I considered her already popcorned to. I am fine with your list, I would just move kalimar to the end. Otherwise its good.

[Sajin]

I am disappointed I read Kalimar's posting wrong. I thought he was going to be Zeno/Silva with the way he acted around CF Riot. Happy with the reasoning for acting like that though.



@Syryana: That claim is not even a full claim. You claimed your ability was active yet no reasoning for using it or when you used it or anything.

Also I dislike how you ask for CF Riot's contract now. Your completely right it should prove your claimed role...but he is out of contracts.

it also confirms two people to themselves and the rest of the town sort of like Masons. However, in this case, they also get to kill people.

I only get 2 (half) shots and it only confirms us if we claim. I'm not informed in anyway who if anyone accepts my contract, and I assume they wouldn't know I put the hit out either.

Are you town and unaware of this or trying to cash in on cred to "test your role" after it is too late? Unlikely, the time to do this was yesterday if you were town. In your #1702 you even quote riot saying he has 2 shots and I find it hard to believe you forgot that. I also really dislike the way you said you were taking yourself out of the lynch pool and your implication that all the PR claims are town and to hunt from the VT claims.


On the other hand it could be just lack of time spent in the game that causes his lurkiness and forgetfulness of previous claimed things. Sadly I could see town doing this.

@Syryana: Thoughts? Why not speak up yesterday?


I could also get behind an AK lynch. The entire last few posts behind AK trying to grill kalimar make zero sense from town. The only reason to ask Kalimar about the QT is to see Vi's reads and the way the questions were asked did not really seem to imply that. Instead it seems like she wants to discredit kalimar which really does not make sense from a town perspective. If someone wanted to counter claim kalimar, then we have a instant lynch pool of 2.

@AK: What was that line of questioning supposed to do AK?

[Sajin]

VOTE: Magua

I could ask why you did not respond to my points. But I am going to assume you do not have a good answer because your scum.

Vote: Syryana

@AK: I was referring to how your last few points of how you questioned kalimar and his QT with Vi had zero point. Why did you think that was a good line of questioning?

@Rem: When you activate a contract do you choose which one of you makes the kill? Or both of you?


@Nacho: Where is your claim? Waiting.

[Sajin]

Active PGO probably makes more sense when combined with Skill Hunter in terms of the setup. Active prevent death get a QT does not make sense at all. The leader of the phatom troupe needs good stuff to steal (and that is probably entirely why the dominatrix had vote manipulation. It made sense flavor wise and from a balance perspective made the ability useful for scum to steal). I still want my questions answered though, Syryana.

Hey Nacho I have a meta quote for you. In a game ending a few days ago I was scum partnered with Mara scum.... I was trying to save her day 1 after she talked herself into a corner and eventually self hammered. In the post game she stated that the reasoning for the self hammer was because she was tired of "drawing scum". The attitude that she presented there could also easily be carry over from this game if she equates scum role PMs and being frustrated. I could easily see some cross game frustration carryover (from doing poorly in that game as well as this one both with scum PMs).

Game thread: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... &start=375

Vote: AK

Also Metal Sonic gave me a direct and useful response to my question? I was not expecting that which is why I asked Rem. Color me surprised.

[Sajin]

I will have some more input after the 4th.

[Sajin]

Evidently I lost a post when posting on crappy internet by phone.

@Syrana Why did you claim what you did when you did? Walk me through that thought process. Please be elaborate.

@Magua What is your problem with my play anyways? Explain?

An antique dealer sends an object to another person and that person is told who sent it, but the object has no other effect.

Correct me if I am wrong but I thought you said earlier that you were not sure what the object did. Now you know that the object does nothing?

[Sajin]

So your saying the mod gave you additional info that was not in your original role PM or that you misspoke earlier?

[Sajin]

What object are you talking about?

I was given an antique from your predecessor Night 1.

Monkey anything to say here?

yes, it gave me an ability. I'd rather talk about it as it would give information about my role.

*not talk about it.

I'm not so sure he is, but his power seems to be provable, if he uses it. I'm still waiting on proof, myself.

I am Zepile, One Shot Antiques Dealer. Once per game I can give someone an object. I don't know what it does, if anything. Night one I gave it to Remelia Scarlet. I have no more powers.

I know that I have an artifiact, I just don't know what it does. My ability is Antiques Dealer.

Maybe it needs to be activated somehow?

The ability was the object. I assumed it did something eventually.

You think it makes sense for an object to be in the game that doesn't do anything?

My role will flip as Zepile, Antiques Dealer.

Neither do I since I have not watched the show, but this is his wiki article:

Zepile Edit



Zepile (ゼパイル, Zepairu) is an antiques trader who helps Gon raise funds for the Southernpiece Auction in Yorknew City. Contents [show]

Appearance

Zepile is a man who has short, light brown hair with long sideburns on both sides of his face. His most prominent feature is his wavy, thick, brown eyebrows. He wears a red blazer with black stripes on edges, a white shirt underneath, which has a large collar that reveals a large amount of his chest and a dark pants.
Plot
Yorknew City arc

Zepile first appears in Yorknew City when Gon and Killua were about to be scammed by the owner of a pawn shop. Zepile used to counterfeit famous antiques in his youth, but got a decent living through trading antiques. He now tries buys back all of the counterfeit goods he made whenever he comes across them. His counterfeits possess aura, which he unconsciously used without knowing it. He teaches Gon and Killua on how to spot scams regarding antiques, particularly about wooden vaults. Gon leaves him to the task of raising money by selling the antiques that they managed to collect. Zepile manages to get back Gon's savings back to 1 Billion Jenny so that he can buy back his pawned Hunter License. Zepile then decided to become a Hunter himself.
Greed Island arc

Zepile knocked out by Killua in the Hunter exam
Zepile participates in the 288th Hunter Exam but is knocked unconscious by Killua, whom knocks out all of the other applicants in order to finis

An antique dealer sends an object to another person and that person is told who sent it, but the object has no other effect.

So your saying the mod gave you additional info that was not in your original role PM or that you misspoke earlier?

I asked for clarification and the mod clarified. The original pm did not elaborate on the item.

What, that the mod wouldn't give me info that's not in my role PM? That's a pretty crappy reason to vote for someone, mod's have lots of discression.

This is a compilation of most of the stuff you said about your role.

Basically you have gone from it adds an ability, to it has to do something, to I have mod confirmation that my artifact does nothing at all.

I don't necessarily have a problem with any of that but I don't think the mod would slip up and give you more information then he intended at the start.

On top of that you really do not have any reaction about it. You claimed it like "hey this is what my role will flip when I die" when its not the same thing as what you originally said and you showed no disappointment in it.

Likely its a safe claim that you did not really think about when you claimed it beforehand.

Also when you mentioned it gave you an ability was probably a slip.

Vote: MonkeyMan

[Sajin]

Magua, if Monkey is mafia, then he isn't a fruit vendor. If he's mafia, his ability, flavor-wise, actually does do something - namely, it probably lets him track his target for the rest of the game, or something like that.

I'm entirely hung up on a Mafia ability that is confirmed to the target (Remilia knew that it was Monkey that gave them the artifact). So if you were designing this game, and you had a Mafia-ate who had a confirmed ability if used on town, would you not give the Mafia-ate a fakeclaim that would cover that confirmed ability?

If Monkey had a fakeclaim that covered his ability, I

would hope to God

expect it would've come across as less convoluted than what he's actually said.

Well I think he claimed what actually happened when he sent the artifact (he got an ability of some kind) and used his fakeclaim word for word and that has not matched up with what he previously said "off the cuff". I do not think he realized it differed with what he said before when he posted it.

Shrug, Nacho, what are we waiting on?

[Sajin]

I really enjoyed this game. I think I would of enjoyed it because of the thematic roles even if I was on the losing side.

I really dig the design intricacies (even some of the ones you did not mention like scum self watcher with the mass 11 target doc). I also really like that the doc can choose less than 11, it adds skill to a role and, design wise, promotes good day play to assist at night (which is what every mafia game should be like)


I still would of went for the conservative approach on day 4 though.

And yes I thought AM was melody until the role reveal.

I also thought Vi was Gon during night 1 because I felt like that was a track that he claimed and that made sense to me flavor wise (because Gon tracks smells down in the show a few times in various arcs).



GG everyone, high fives to the town brethren.