Consulmaker - Carthage wins!

[Zindaras]

You shall not call me Zindaras today. Such names are for commoners, for Roman citizens, not for Consuls of Rome.

I shall be adressed as Felinus Maximus.

Vote for Tribune: Mastermind of Sin

[Zindaras]

Kingmakers can't crown themselves, that's what I do know. And after all, this is a variant (if a rather awesome one) on Kingmaker.

[Zindaras]

Hey Primate, wanna execute Battle Mage?

[Zindaras]

Okidoki.

Execute: Battle Mage

DIE SCUM!

[Zindaras]

lol such opportunism from those so

inexperienced

. Perhaps you need advice on the rules of this game so we can proceed with the intent of killing SCUM.

Bolded made me laugh. A lot.

It's a shame you read the first post, though.

[Zindaras]

you are

so

going to the pits.

Yeah, I totally agree.

Okay, Primate, here's what we do. We wait until the town elects their silly tribunes, and then we execute Battle Mage three times so that he can't be vetoed anymore.

Kay?

[Zindaras]

Vote for Tribune: Kison

Why?

Elaborate or die.

Tribunal Vote Count

Twito - 1(Battle Mage)
Mastermind of Sin - 1(Zindaras)
Kison - 1(mole)

[Zindaras]

I must dissent, if the consuls are serious about their proposed execution. Battle Mage may or may not be scum - we have no way of knowing this. Simply executing him for personal reasons, however, is a mark of scum. I object to this in the strongest sense. I am not prepared to vote for Tribune yet, I need to see more from the individual players.

Andrewus, you dissappoint me. Battlus Magus is obviously a scumbal.

[Zindaras]

Hey, I'm not sure if i can do this but

Vote for Tribune: Panzerjager

When I am tribune I get extra veto power so I believe especially if Pod and Zindy are consuls that this would be a good thing. Especially since I'm getting scum vibe from one of our consuls. I realize it is classless to vote for myself, I just wanted to point out that I have an ability upon becoming tribune and think it would be in the Towns best interest to know this.

You've got one Veto. If we want to, we can simply force a lynch.

Pretty sweet, huh?

[Zindaras]

Every Tribune has only one Veto.

So, amuse me, which one of the Consuls do you think is scum?

[Zindaras]

And you think it is wise to claim your role at this stage in the game why?

Also, answer the question please.

[Zindaras]

So, Battle Mage, why are the both of us scum?

[Zindaras]

Kingmaker works with an election system as well.

It doesn't have to be right, flavour-wise.

[Zindaras]

you both seem pretty eratic in your haste to lynch someone without evidence. You seem to have a close relationship, and certainly are both slightly tipsy on the power.
actually, i will

Unvote, Vote: Raffles for Tribune

BM

We are Consuls. We have to decide together. I think it's funny, personally. You mistake fun for erraticness and scumminess.

They can't execute you now anyways. If they were to read the rules, it would say that they can issue an execution after one week of playing.

Well, d'oh. I fakexecuted him to see how people would react. I don't do grudges.

I'd also like to echo Raffles's

IGMEOY: Panzerjager

.

[Zindaras]

Zindie gets to have a reign of terror! ^_^

[Zindaras]

Cato?

Cato was famous for his actions between the Second and Third Punic War (Cetero censam Carthaginam delendam esse!), not his actions during the Second Punic War (he was 17/18 at that time).

[Zindaras]

This game is based on the Punic Wars, and Cogito is

at least

as much a Roman History geek as I am. I am expecting those who played a major role in the Second Punic War to play a role in this game. Which is why I find this Cato claim odd, as Cato never played a role in the specific war.

[Zindaras]

Correction: He did play a role, just not a large one.

I don't think it's enough to warrant an execution though.

[Zindaras]

In 214 B.C, two years before this, he was a military tribune. It is possible he could be well-known for is oratory skills.

*giggles*

214 BC is two years

after

216 BC.

[Zindaras]

lmao..forum and I spoligize for my stupidity Zindie.

No need to apologize. It was hilarious.

Still point is, Tribune and success in Roman forums, meaning my role has a possibility.

Yes. I think it makes you slightly more possible as town.

[Zindaras]

To be honest, I don't think Tribune vetos are as important as you're making them to be. I doubt that one extra veto will really help the town.

There are two Tribunes with each one vote. The other Consul can veto at his discretion. We'll have 3 weeks to execute someone. What do you expect the Consuls to do, randomly execute someone? There will be a reasoning behind the Consuls' approach of execution, and to say that we need as many vetoes as possible is overdone.

[Zindaras]

can we even be sure this is a protown role? i mean it could be a scum role that is used to protect their own...
BM

Everything

could

be a scum role. To be honest, I find it far more likely that he's town. Your attempt to cast doubt on Panzer is noted.

Zindy, I think your argumnet depends on how often a veto is used. I personally never played kingmaker before so I don't know, but someone else can fill me in for me on this one.

There are no vetos in Kingmaker.

[Zindaras]

Concordantly, we should, as it were, cessate the awareness of Battle Mage in terms of this game. Q.E.D.

[Zindaras]

Don't compare apples to oranges, Zindaras. In terms of relevance, the cessation of BM's awareness calls for a concrete analysis vis-a-vis our Consuls, as referred to in Jeep's "Mafia Principles" article, circa 2003.

You're begging the question. Mith's "Better Mafia Principles" article, circa 2008, clearly suggests that we should verily cessate Battle Mage's awareness in terms of this game, i.e. compel him to expire.

[Zindaras]

Your use of logical fallacy combined with inescapably false factualizations astounds me, Zindaras. Mith, having yet to write said article, cannot yet have supplanted the established principles set forth by Jeep and amended by Pheobus in his "Mafia Principles Redux" article, circa 2005.

Inescapably? I beg to differ. Your parameters are incorrect, for here, in the Netherlands, we started counting at what would be for the rest of the world 1 BC. Therefore, Mith's 2008 article clearly is able to rebut Jeep's 2004 and Phoebus's 2006 articles.

These guidelines,

a fortiori

, provide us with the materials needed to prove that our Consuls have given us substance to work with

ab absurdo

, per se.

Concordantly with my earlier claims, as proven by Mith's 2008 article, there is no required "substance" needed to cessate Battle Mage awareness.

Tribunal Vote Count

Mastermind of Sin - 4(Zindaras, Primate, TheEyeOfMordor, ~N9V~)
Raffles - 4(Raffles, Cephrir, Battle Mage, Panzerjager)
Kison - 1(mole)
Cheesefan - 1(Kison)
Rand Althor - 1(Rand Althor)
mole - 1(AndrewS)
Panzerjager - 1(livingod)

[Zindaras]

And also pretty much what I said here:

To be honest, I don't think Tribune vetos are as important as you're making them to be. I doubt that one extra veto will really help the town.

There are two Tribunes with each one vote. The other Consul can veto at his discretion. We'll have 3 weeks to execute someone. What do you expect the Consuls to do, randomly execute someone? There will be a reasoning behind the Consuls' approach of execution, and to say that we need as many vetoes as possible is overdone.

Also, MoS, I really want to thank you. That was one awesome argument.

[Zindaras]

MoS is a known quality player. That's why I voted him.

[Zindaras]

Maybe so, but I wouldn't rush to risk electing someone who could be a scum even if he was a good player.

What other criterium do you suggest we use when he have virtually nothing to go on?

[Zindaras]

Is there a post counter, MoS?

I think the argument between MoS and me may actually be useful.

[Zindaras]

Nono, I know that, but I was wondering if there was a way to get everyone's post count in one nice little list.

[Zindaras]

meh-ill believe it when i see it. So far all he is done is go off-topic and confuse me (and CES by the looks of it). I am very dubious of the amount of support he acquired before he even made a post-especially from both tribunes. Toaster Strudel voted for him without any reason whatsoever.
FOS: Toaster Strudel, Zindaras, Primate

MoS has a better track record than any other non-Consul in this game (and maybe even better than any Consul, too). MoS has experience and skill, and those two variables are most important.

Also, regarding the confusion thing, I think it was actually good for the town and that it was a bit of a shame that Cessy broke it so harshly.

[Zindaras]

A confused town is an honest town. Scum just ascribe things up to the confusion, later, but still, it's nice to have it.

Exactly. Confused town and scum are different, just like normal town and normal scum are different. Confused scum may panic and screw up.

[Zindaras]

Raffles, I pull my own game plan. If AndrewS wants to execute you that badly, he'll have to come up with one hell of a case, because I don't think you're scum.

[Zindaras]

but lets just say the consulmaker picked one or BOTH scum as consuls. What does that make you? well, either scum, or someone easy to manipulate. From your claims you obviously do not consider yourself to be the latter, so odds are that you are scum if either of them are.

The chance for that is ridiculously slim. Also, if this were the case, town is screwed for today anyway.

Everyone can have lucky guesses at who is scum. if 1 success out of 85 games is all you can offer, i have to express some doubt at your skill. However i think the best thing to do would be to wait and see for myself

I like how you say this but you also talk every game about how good you are at scumcatching because you caught scum that one time.

Im also very concerned at the way in which Zindaras and AndrewS (the latter a little more subtly) seem to be sucking up to Raffles. this is probably not a scum tell-more of a greed-tell, but i still think it should be noted.

What the?

This is just outright stupid.

Yeah, I agree with AndrewS' point 2. I hate self-voting and try to avoid it unless I feel it's truly necessary.

*nods*

I like that.

ROFL. For someone who doesnt think of themselves as conceited, you do like to talk about yourself alot dont you?

...

Let me boil down what you're doing:

*Battle Mage walks up to MoS*
Battle Mage: Hey MoS, how are you?
MoS: I'm pretty good.
Battle Mage: What do you do nowadays?
MoS: Well, I train owls to say ORLY.
Battle Mage:

O RLY?

MoS:

YARR RLY!

Battle Mage: NO WAI!

Battle Mage: Well, you sure like to talk about yourself, don't you, you conceited little person?
MoS: ...

personally i will judge a players skill based on my experience of them. For all i know, most of the people backing you are scum in this game. This being the case i choose to trust my good honest self over any amount of potential liars.

There are six people voting MoS? Add MoS, makes 7. You think there's seven scum? You think there's some forum-wide conspiracy to make everyone believe that MoS is a good player, while in reality he has the IQ of a flea?

Its been a week, we have no tribune. If consuls were mafia, it'd be night.

For one, that'd be way too obvious. For two, we can't execute people during the Tribune voting, see my fake execution on Battle Mage.

[Zindaras]

But it's funny, so it's totally worth it.

[Zindaras]

that is my current opinion anyway. It is quite possible, as the Consulmaker has no idea of who is scum when he made his first choice.

Quite possible? It has a chance of 5/20*4/19, which is 20/380, which is 1 out of 19. That's not quite possible, that's an amazingly slim chance.

i obviously dont think all voters for MoS are scum, however i think the wagon has its fair share of scum in there.

But

why

? All you go on about is that MoS is not a good player and that you have no reason to believe he is a good player because you haven't played with him before, which is not only narrow-minded, but also does not work as logic. For you, because you don't know him and don't want to read up on him or take others' words of it, he is a bad player. But for everyone else, he is a good player.

You attack people for voting MoS because you think he's not a good player, but everyone else has already stated that they feel MoS is a good player. So your logic doesn't work.

lol at the little dialogue. Really productive. Im sure a career in script writing awaits.

Thanks, I try.

[Zindaras]

Ignoring him is not the answer.

[Zindaras]

I live but to serve and make bad jokes, MoS.

I disagree.

Then you're simply giving him a free pass into endgame if he's scum.

[Zindaras]

So far, I've been able to read him pretty well.

[Zindaras]

EBWOP: Then again, I've never seen him as scum yet.

[Zindaras]

Mod

: Could you please prod the people who haven't voted for Tribune yet?

[Zindaras]

Let's not turn this into an insulting game.

I think way too many people are simply not contributing anything to the discussion.

[Zindaras]

Sorry, I was gone for the weekend.

Primey, I don't think Randy's the play. I've played a couple of games with him before (he's Logain on WotC), and he tends to play like this. Personally, I'm more interested in Cephirir and Battle Mage at the moment.

Cessy, could you also state who is not voting anyone at all in your vote counts?

[Zindaras]

It's one line, two, tops. That's worth my desire for knowing who's not voting.

[Zindaras]

Zindaras - where did you get your basis for the statistical analysis. I haven't seen that we know there are 5 scum in the game. Was that just a possible secenario? Andrew at least noted that he was making estimates with his statistics.

25% is Mafia. That's the rule of thumb I use. Looking at the flavour, the game seems fairly straightforward, so I don't expect double Mafia groups. SK is possible, of course.

[Zindaras]

Why couldn't there be 2 Mafias?
Although I doubt it, I think there still is a chance for that to occur.

It's Rome vs Carthage. There was no third group in that war.

Except maybe the elephants. That'd be a pretty awesome Mafia.

"Ceterum censeo Carthaginem delendam esse" Vote Count

Cephrir - 3(AndrewS, Battle Mage, Toaster Strudel)
livingod - 2(Panzerjager, HackerHuck)
Rand Althor - 1(

Primate

)
Battle Mage - 1(Cephrir)
TheEyeOfMordor - 1(ubertimmy)

[Zindaras]

I translated texts about the war and I read a lot about it. It's a great story.

Cephirir, TheEyeofMordor, other non-voters

: who do you want executed and why?

[Zindaras]

I know you're voting, but I singled you and TEOM out because you two specifically raised my interest. And why do you wish to have those people killed?

[Zindaras]

Ah, but this game is based an a specific year, a specific war, and Cessy is as much a geek about stuff like this as I am.

[Zindaras]

Your King has been busy recently, and will deign to honour you with his wise presence some time tomorrow.

King?

KING?!?

.

You have stepped out of line, Primatus. There is no King. There is a reign of duality. This statement was ignorant and arrogant. Therefore, I feel that I, Felinus Maximus, Consul of Rome, have only one avenue to choose now. The avenue of:

Execute: Primate

[Zindaras]

Aww, c'mon, Cessy, you had to go and spoil all the reactions for me, didn't you? You big meanie.

[Zindaras]

I asked Cessy before fakexecuting Primate.

[Zindaras]

Sorry Primate, I'm never scum. The only finished one I've played in lately that I'm reasonably happy with is Jungle Republic Mafia. It's Mini 392, Little Italy.

I can, however, point you to games where I've been about as silly as I've been this game.

[Zindaras]

If it's the same as in Kingmaker, Primate nor I will be able to be Consul until Day 3.

[Zindaras]

No. Leading town power roles never is a good idea (barring vigs, because the Mafia, barring Mafia Docs, which are stupid powerful, can't do anything about those). If, for example, we'd tell the Consulmaker to appoint X and Y, and Y is scum, then the Mafia will kill X and we'll get Y as dictator.

[Zindaras]

First off, I went and analyzed vote counts from Reverse Mafia (Mini 370, a good read) to take a look at how scum votes tend to be distributed. Based on that analysis, I think ubertimmy's decision not to vote in Tribune elections is somewhat scummy.

Then I went and read the entire game, jotting down notes wherever I could.

Kison votes Cheesefan. AndrewS town. Raffles pushes for BM. BM OMGURs Raffles. ~N9V~ hops on the pick-BM-wagon. Cephir votes Raffles. Zindaras-Primate-AndrewS-TEOM votes MoS. ~N9V~ then jumps on the MoS-wagon. AndrewS goes with mole as second, BM wants Raffles. Panzerjager then goes with Raffles. Interesting vote count here:

Mastermind of Sin - 4(Zindaras, Primate, TheEyeOfMordor, ~N9V~)
Raffles - 4(Raffles, Cephrir, Battle Mage, Panzerjager)

livingod votes Panzer. Awesomely hilarious MoS-Zindie argument. I agree with Post 156. Kison declares he will probably vote MoS. Toaster Strudel voters MoS.

Panzerjager switches to AndrewS. Kison says we should ignore BM, who is agitating against MoS. Cephirir agrees with this. Ending vote count:

Mastermind of Sin - 6(Zindaras, Primate, TheEyeOfMordor, ~N9V~, Toaster Strudel, Kison)
AndrewS - 3(Mastermind of Sin, Panzerjager, Raffles)
Raffles - 2(Cephrir, Battle Mage)
Kison - 1(mole)
Rand Althor - 1(Rand Althor)
mole - 1(AndrewS)
Panzerjager - 1(livingod)

Funny that Raffles had the choice to elect himself but didn't do that. I don't know what to make of that. Based on my analysis of the Reverse votecounts, if the trend from that game continues, there would have to be at least one scumbag on that wagon. Then again, the percentages are different between the two (after all, Reverse was just a Mini). I would argue that there was one scumbag one the MoS-wagon, more if he's scum.

Now the real day starts. Both tribunes are against a BM-execution. Now BM votes Cephirir, who was his fellow-Raffles voter, something I feel is important to note. Timmy votes TEOM. Primate votes Rand. Strudel votes Cephirir as well, after I say he's being watched. ~N9V~ goes and wagons livingod as well. I don't agree with the livingod-wagon. I don't feel what he has contributed is scummy.

Vote: Toaster Strudel, ~N9V~, Cephirir

This was a really difficult decision (I actually changed it before submitting), but...

Execute: ~N9V~

His voting behaviour has been odd all game and he hasn't contributed a lot.

Also, Cessy, you use your mod powers way too much. *grins*

Nuh-uh. For example, I'm not correcting your misspelling of Cephrir's name in this post.

[Zindaras]

Pfft.

You should take that over from Kingmaker.

Vote: ~N9V~

, then.

[Zindaras]

Hey, Cessy, can I veto my own execution?

[Zindaras]

I executed ~N9V~ because, well, it was 10 days before deadline and I didn't want the execution to be accepted simply because we needed to execute someone.

In retrospect, I could've done it a little later, but, well, I felt it was a good idea to get the show on the road, as I felt we were getting in a bit of a drag.

[Zindaras]

*does the execution dance*

Zindie executed the scum! ^_^

The Stomp kill is clearly an Elephantine kill, as I suggested. Toaster Strudel is a nonsensical kill. AndrewS's role name reminds me eerily of Cultural Revolution Mafia. Cessy, if you made this look like CR, I will flay you alive.

[Zindaras]

(3. Or you are, in fact, an all knowing god)

I'd say this one is most likely of the three you mentioned.

So why was it N9V rather than other lurkers, or others on livingod wagon?

From my post:

-~N9V~ hops on the pick-BM-wagon.
-Zindaras-Primate-AndrewS-TEOM votes MoS. ~N9V~ then jumps on the MoS-wagon.
-~N9V~ goes and wagons livingod as well.

The whole BM-wagon seems odd to me. As an aside, I think we could execute him and have a reasonable chance of him coming up scum. Now, then he votes MoS. As I said, I analyzed the voting from Reverse Mafia and found it likely to be a scumbag's vote. His wagoning on livingod was also at a time where I would expect a scumbag to cast his vote.

As I said, it was a difficult decision (I was going to execute Toaster Strudel at first, actually, but I sat down, thought about it for a minute or five, and decided to execute ~N9V~ instead). I felt that his track record was worse than any other's and my gut agreed, so I went with him.

My gut's good. I trust it. This is why.

Also, something I should've mentioned in that first post: Panzerjager is in no way cleared. The scum probably got fake claims, so don't simply assume he's town.

[Zindaras]

No-one in this game is cleared. It doesn't stop them being unlikely scum.

No, but I definitely wanted to ay specifically that he wasn't cleared so we don't forget about him.

[Zindaras]

Vote: Primate

I think he's a good choice for Tribune.

[Zindaras]

I don't think it works. If it'd work, it'd be a good idea, but I just think it doesn't work.

[Zindaras]

Huge FoS: Battle Mage

Every Roman Citizen should know that Carthage threatens Rome.

[Zindaras]

*smashes head into brick wall*

[Zindaras]

What on earth...

Am I dumb? I don't get it. What just happened?

As I said, *smacks head into brick wall*

Gaius Iulius Caesar. I mean, that should ring a bell. Caesar, huh? You know, the famous Roman guy?

Didn't live during the Punic Wars. *gasp*

Death Miller is also something that doesn't tend to show up in DPs, because a Death Miller means that you turn up scum after death while you are really town.

[Zindaras]

I think Kison, Battle Mage and Raffles would all be reasonable executions for the day.

[Zindaras]

Because there are three people I think are scummy, maybe?

[Zindaras]

MoSsy, are you going to execute Raffles, Kison or BM today, as I asked? And if so, which one?

[Zindaras]

you both seem pretty eratic in your haste to lynch someone without evidence. You seem to have a close relationship, and certainly are both slightly tipsy on the power.
actually, i will

Unvote, Vote: Raffles for Tribune

BM

These are BM's original reasons for saying I'm scum. It's bogus, clear as day.

This is the

only

time in the game that BM has ever explained anything about why I am scum. He feels I am not above suspicion due to the N9V execution, which is fair, but he has failed to explain how the N9V execution fits in a scumbag's play. In fact, he fails to explain anything, really, just randomly spouting "This and that are scum.Oh, and that guy's town, too"

[Zindaras]

Kison, I don't care how he was caught in other games. To say that he is only scum when he contradicts himself is fairly silly.

[Zindaras]

But to say BattleMage is probably a scum because he is acting scummy is even sillier. We all know that is not how it works with BM.

You can't allow the guy to get away with posting scummy things every time simply because "it's just BM". I will not allow him to simply post whatever the hell he wants and not be expected to validate any of his suspicions.

[Zindaras]

I don't think BM is a good execution

Why?

Make it more than one sentence.

[Zindaras]

That sounds like you don't really care if he's a scum or not, but we should execute him anyway because he is BM.

You're completely misrepresenting what I'm saying. I'm saying he shouldn't be allowed to get away with spouting random crap, not that we should execute him every game. I'm not saying we should execute him because he's BM, I'm saying we should execute him if he is scummy.

[Zindaras]

If you cannot read a book, is it because the book's writing is illegible...or is it because your eyes aren't good enough?

[Zindaras]

What? I don't understand that anology at all.

And to answer your question, it depends. I could be long sighted, or the book is written in the language I don't understand. But I would doubt it's because the writing is scribbly.

In all those cases, it is your fault. If you can't read the book because it's in a different language, then you should learn the new language, and if the writing is difficult to read, you should look closer.

BM is the book. You choose to discard the book and take the risk that something very important is written in it, I choose to squint and read as much as I can.

"Ceterum censeo Carthaginem delendam esse." Vote Count

Zindaras - 1(Twito)
livingod - 1(Raffles)
Kison - 1(Cephrir)
Battle Mage - 1(Rand Althor)

[Zindaras]

I'm doing just that by not ignoring him but forcing him to talk.

[Zindaras]

im a BOOK now?
alright then: HOW THE HELL IS THE BOOK USING THE COMPUTER KEYBOARD????
Nah seriously, Raffles is right. In your scenario, you try and read the book, but end up convincing yourself that the half-truth you have learnt is correct, when actually it isnt. On the other hand, Raffles chooses not to read the unclear book, instead making opinions of his own.
In this analogy, Raffles probably watched the film

with subtitles

.
BM

How can you have a correct opinion about a book that you cannot read? You can't.

[Zindaras]

pretty simple really. In this analogy, the book is my play over previous games. Raffles chooses to form his own opinions based on how i play now, whereas you think you will get a better representation from a book you just dont understand. Actually this whole conversation is a bit elementary but ah well.

This statement is incorrect. Raffles refers to earlier games, saying you're "always scummy".

I choose not to ignore you.

[Zindaras]

so this is basically metagaming vs non-metagaming?
that being the case, i have to say the former is better when you can use it well. Dont get me wrong, dont feel you have to regard my previous play as an excuse for acting scummy, but the fact is, you have to take all factors into account. If i always look scummy to you, (and i have only actually been killed as scum once btw) when most of the time i am not actually scum, you need to find a better way of reading me. If i am acting the same 'scummy' as i always do, as town and scum, you dont have a case on me atall. That is adapting to suit your circumstances.
personally i dont think my actions are generally scummy, but others seem to. Ironically, they are almost always wrong. In fact, as a bit of advice for you-its when im not acting scummy that you need to watch me.

I do not believe that at this point, you are easy to metagame. I don't know for sure how to metagame you. So I maul the living daylights out of you until I get what I want.

Harsh? Maybe.

Now go and elaborate on why I'm scum.

I'll get to your little assignment later, Mossyboy.

"Ceterum censeo Carthaginem delendam esse." Vote Count

livingod - 3(Raffles, Battle Mage, Kison)
Zindaras - 1(Twito)
Kison - 1(Cephrir)
Battle Mage - 1(Rand Althor)

[Zindaras]

Wanted to post this yesterday, but was buggered by CPU Quota Error.

so this is basically metagaming vs non-metagaming?
that being the case, i have to say the former is better when you can use it well. Dont get me wrong, dont feel you have to regard my previous play as an excuse for acting scummy, but the fact is, you have to take all factors into account. If i always look scummy to you, (and i have only actually been killed as scum once btw) when most of the time i am not actually scum, you need to find a better way of reading me. If i am acting the same 'scummy' as i always do, as town and scum, you dont have a case on me atall. That is adapting to suit your circumstances.
personally i dont think my actions are generally scummy, but others seem to. Ironically, they are almost always wrong. In fact, as a bit of advice for you-its when im not acting scummy that you need to watch me.

I do not believe that at this point, you are easy to metagame. I don't know for sure how to metagame you. So I maul the living daylights out of you until I get what I want.

Harsh? Maybe.

Now go and elaborate on why I'm scum.

I'll get to your little assignment later, Mossyboy.

[Zindaras]

Oh, crap, it actually got through.

[Zindaras]

livingod

:

Better than nothing.

vote panzer

Don't think this says anything about his alignment.

Script writing = Screenwriting

Joke.

Same as above.

Filler.

Filler.

Whoops, forgot about this game.

Filler.

I'm down with an N9V execution. (Takes out popcorn)

Irrelevant.

vote Primate

Irrelevant.

Besides, if he was a death miller, why reveal that bit?

Filler.

Well, congrats, livingod has just proven to be completely useless.

But that doesn't mean he's scum.

I didn't like the way the livingod-wagon developed yesterday, which is part of why I executed N9V.

To be honest though, he could still be our little Elephant SK (the flavour hints at Elephantine killing). If we ever get at the point where we have zero suspects, we should execute him.

[Zindaras]

Oh, by the way, I do think that livingod should be prodded with a cattle-prodder until he starts actually contributing to the game.

Cessus

(or is it Cessa? >.>), be a nice little mod and prod/replace livingod.

[Zindaras]

Primate

:

we must do it quickly, before these ignoble swine can elect tribunes to stop us

and yes, I know, etc, etc

Went along in my early antics. That was fun. I'd say it's more of a Primate-tell than an alignment-tell, though.

Andrew, it should really go without saying, but you have my word that I will not actually execute anyone unless I find them scummy. I've actually only ever played with BM in one game before, and we both died N1, so I doubt that counts.

vote mastermind of sin

is good though. Until we know better, we should put the most solid players in the most powerful positions. Mos's main fault is that he's not great at getting people to go along with him, so this should help circumvent that.

@Panzer: No. Your king says that would be unecessary. Dropping more role info will not further convince people, and will just aid hannibalscum in coming up with claims. No offence, but the reason I don't want you on the tribune stand is because I don't think you're a particularly good player yet. You'd veto people for the wrong reasons. And you really, really, need to stop this habit of claiming early for bad reasons. I've seen you do it in a few games now, you figure that if you claim a your role, you will get someone to listen to you, be trusted more. All it really does though is tell the mafia who to actually kill, and prompt paranoia in a town. all the things you're trying to gain can also be gained by simply acting like a townie, putting forward your suspicions well, etc.

Here's Primate's more serious side. I agree one hundred percent with this post.

So You'd rather have someone with one veto instead of two? That makes sense, and primate, I have only claimed by choice in 2 games, this and MK on WIFOM. I actually am not bad at catching scum and I think between me you and MoS we could stop Zindy from lynching the entire world

Dude, the guy hasn't got a machine gun. Saying we need 4 veto's to stop zindies reign of terror is a little extreme.

I wish I had a machine gun, I'd go all "RATATATATAT you're dead HAHA!"

Cessy, why can't I have a machine gun?

Zindie, Rand, do you have any links to games in which you were scum? I can't navigate your site properly.

I don't think Cephrir is especially scummy. I've played with him a fair bit, and I've seen him as both town and scum. What he's doing here is much more in line with the way he plays as town than the way he plays as scum.

unvote, vote livingod

The worst of the hardcore lurkers.

I still don't really understand why he asks me for a reference to a scumgame.

Sorry about how useless I've been. My access has been abysmal over the past week and a half, and it could cut off again at any minute, so I'll just say that I have no problem with the proposed execution. I'm a little annoyed at Zindie for not checking with me before doing it, but I can see why he did it.

I considered Rand, Livingod, N9V or possibly Toaster Strudel for execution. I didn't consider Battle Mage, Cephrir, TEOM.

In my notes I have some analysis based on players in this game, but it's nowhere near finished, so I'll just post it tomorrow. It also looks fairly lame, atm, seeing most of the people who are suspicious are people who are lurkers, and the innate feature of lurkers is that there's nothing there to look at.

So, yeah, I waive.

I'd like to see that analysis.

Pro Town

1. Zindaras
3. TheEyeOfMordor
10. Hackerhuck(replacing mole)
18. Raffles
19. Cephrir
14. Mastermind of Sin
15. Panzerjager

Neutral

4. TheJiveMachine(replacing Cheesefan)
5. ubertimmy
9. Kison
11. AndrewS
13. Battle Mage
8. Twito

Scum

12. ~N9V~
7. Rand Althor
16. Toaster Strudel
20. livingod

Not in any particular order, these are my present feelings. I just wanted to get them down.

I can't say I'm very impressed by this post.

I think his early play was fairly good and my gut's telling me he's town, and, besides, he's my little monkey lieutenant, second-in-command in my search for scum. Aren't you, Primate?

[Zindaras]

yes, i had noticed your overly aggressive attitude when faced with the slightest suspicion. Its one of the reasons i still find you very suspicious.

I think you're seeing it wrong. I'm simply being very aggressive and proactive this game.

As for metagaming me, i dont think anyone really can, as my playstyle hasnt really settled yet. plus if you want to see me as scum, you only have one game to go on, in which i was quicklynched so it isnt a great indication.

Exactly.

Anyway, i dont really see why you would take such an aggressive stance towards me, unless you had something to hide.

That is, for one, rather silly, and for two, says nothing about my alignment.

I havent even provided a decent case against you but you seem very defensive.

I think that sums up an important part of why you are suspicious.

"Mauling me till you get what you want"? what is it you want? me to stop drawing attention to your dubious behaviour. Sorry, but that aint gonna happen. By continuing to attack me on very little grounds, you simply draw attention to your own scummy behaviour.

You haven't even explained what my so-called dubious behaviour is, let alone draw attention to it.

[Zindaras]

aggressive and proactive maybe, but unusually so. In most games i have played with you, you are far more easy going. I dont believe i have seen you as scum before, therefore it is pretty logical to say that your different style could be an indication that you are scum here.
BM

Newbie 321 says hi.

Also, my style differs between many games, depending on other circumstances (setup, role, what I feel like. Mostly what I feel like).

"Ceterum censeo Carthaginem delendam esse." Vote Count

livingod - 3(Raffles, Battle Mage, Kison)
Kison - 1(Cephrir)
Battle Mage - 1(Rand Althor)

[Zindaras]

Also, people, notice how BM choosese to respond to only one thing in the post.

[Zindaras]

yes, i had noticed your overly aggressive attitude when faced with the slightest suspicion. Its one of the reasons i still find you very suspicious.

I think you're seeing it wrong. I'm simply being very aggressive and proactive this game.

To this you responded.

As for metagaming me, i dont think anyone really can, as my playstyle hasnt really settled yet. plus if you want to see me as scum, you only have one game to go on, in which i was quicklynched so it isnt a great indication.

Exactly.

Anyway, i dont really see why you would take such an aggressive stance towards me, unless you had something to hide.

That is, for one, rather silly, and for two, says nothing about my alignment.

I havent even provided a decent case against you but you seem very defensive.

I think that sums up an important part of why you are suspicious.

"Mauling me till you get what you want"? what is it you want? me to stop drawing attention to your dubious behaviour. Sorry, but that aint gonna happen. By continuing to attack me on very little grounds, you simply draw attention to your own scummy behaviour.

You haven't even explained what my so-called dubious behaviour is, let alone draw attention to it.

To this you didn't.

Yes, you do have to break the post and quotes into little chunks, because that makes them a lot easier ot understand for others.

[Zindaras]

i have responded to all points made in that post to a satisfactory extent. If Zindy wishes to ask a specific question, she may do so, but im not going to spend time repeating myself for no reason.
BM

Let's make it bite-sized questions, then:

-Why do you believe my aggression means I have something to hide?
-Why do you believe that people who have something to hide are automatically scum?
-Most importantly, what is my scummy/dubious behaviour? Why am I scum? Where is your case?

I blame Zind for not having his gender specified under his avatar, like the rest of us.

(Although his title does give it away.)

I need to have my title changed to Mr(s). Popularity so I can confuse more people. >.>

[Zindaras]

I find that list interesting, because it's an identical list to Zindie except Zindie is in it.

I'm obviously selling out all my scumbuddies in one grandiose display of sheer awesomeness and suicidal mania, induced, mayhaps, by a surplus of Δ-9 tetrahydrocannabinol.

Funnily, I was just about to suggest Kison as best choice of the three I listed.

[Zindaras]

Also, I want MoS to elaborate on his choice for LoE. Expansively so.

[Zindaras]

Seriously, man, that's a pretty tangential reason to put me on your LoE. You do not feel the N9V execution makes me look more towny? Because even if you felt that reasoning was enough of a reason to put me on the LoE, you ignore other aspects of my play.

Let alone the fact that I did comment on livingod Day 1. See post 406. And I don't see any reason to update my opinions on everyone every time I turn around.

[Zindaras]

Actually, Zindie, your execution

doesn't

make you look better in my eyes. I'm not sure what to think about it yet, but it seems awfully lucky that you hit scum D1. Either way, I didn't execute you, so I clearly decided that the reasoning against you wasn't worth a lynch atm.

Make of it what you will. The ~N9V~ execution was no blind luck, no random guess. It was an educated guess after deliberation. Even Day One, I think it is somewhat rash to simply scratch it up to good fortune. After all, we were at Page 18 or so at that point. I don't see why it's so unnatural. We didn't even have other scum muddying up the waters, making it difficult for a buddy to get lynched, because the lynch decision was made by one lone person.

[Zindaras]

Also, Kison, the longer you wait with claiming, the less likely that I will veto your execution.

[Zindaras]

I'm very interested that you think all of the people on my LoE were "easy" choices for execution today. If I was looking to have "easy" choices, why did I list Zindaras on my LoE? I can't actually execute him, because he's a tribune (something I didn't want to happen, unfortunately), so all that can happen by me putting him on the list is bring me under fire from anyone that thinks he's protown. If I'm scum, why would I want to do that? That's hardly a logical course of action if you're trying to stay alive and take the easy way out.

Rawr!

Vote for Tribune: Twito

I figure it's the only way to get him to actually contribute something. I would support Zindie as the other Tribune.

Don't lie, MoS. It doesn't become you. The entire argument you present here is pure WIFOM, not even the distilled, semi-WIFOM we see so often. Putting me on your LoE was completely irrelevant. You could never execute me, so it says nothing. To use it as a town-tell is silly.

[Zindaras]

Sorry, I got you confused with Primate. He was the one I was more suspicious of at the beginning of the day. My bad, I'm running low on sleep.

And then? You wanted Primate on the LoE?

[Zindaras]

I want

everyone

to give their opinions on Battle Mage, Cephirir and MoS.

[Zindaras]

Please say exactly where you put them in your scum-range, on a 1 to 9 scale. (1-3 being town, 4-6 being unsure, 7-9 being scum. (1 to 9 to make the gradations nicer)

[Zindaras]

You should know where I stand by now

Doesn't matter. I want you to spell out the obvious.

[Zindaras]

Note the discrepancy between the three quotes. In the first he is taking a jokey attitude, saying that there might be elephant mafia. Night 1 there was a stomped kill, so that whole first post feels off, and looks like prior knowledge.

It was a joke. The fact that I was proven right about Elephants when Cessy finally posted the flavour for Night 1 (which was done after I made that post) says nothing. I simply know a lot about ancient history, because I've always been interested in it. I could've predicted you the inclusion of roles like Hasdrubal and Quintus Fabius too. I'm probably right in stating that Maharbal and Hannibal are two of the remaining scum (depending on how many scum there are. At the very least I'm sure about those, another one I don't know). Does that look like prior knowledge to you?

In the next post mentioning elephants he insinuates that he knew that the kill was elpehantine. While this may be the case, and I strongly suspect it is, he never explicitly said it day 1, instead calling the idea of an elephant mafia awesome. So he's contradicted himself slightly there. Then finally, his last post he clearly indicates that he thinks it's an SK and not a mafia, as he implied in his first post.

It was something I had put in my mind a while before and I thought I had posted about it.

This post explains that, but then there's a different contradiction. He says in his first post that the elephants would be an awesome mafia, indicating that he there is a possibility of a second mafia. Plus I just disagree with this post generally, I can't see from the flavour, especially given two night 1 kills, any reason for the elephant(s) to be Sk and not mafia.

It was a joke answer to TEOM's question. TEOM said a second Mafia were possible. The only possibility, flavour-wise, for a second Mafia, are the elephants, as I said.

Now, secondly, there's his suspicions history. Day 1 he indicates a suspicion of Panzer (me).

An IGMEOY is hardly something one has to follow on.

All the rest of his day 1 posts are basically fluff, theory discussion, before his one big post where he concludes that ~N9v~, Cephrir and Toaster Strudel are his LoE and N9V is his execution. Granted, he hit scum, but SK at that point is looking for scum just as avidly as town and the way he went about it leaves me distinctly uneasy. That was the first time he mentioned N9V except for once where he quotes him for his theory discussion. I'll go back to that big post later, as there's something interesting Zindie caught there.

Yes, I caught scum.

The way I went about it? I made a clear analysis. I don't see how that is scummy. It's not different from things I've done before. Besides, by executing N9V I stuck my head out. Livingod was the vote leader at that point, an easy execution. By killing N9V I put myself down as someone who doesn't necessarily follow popular opinion, something the Mafia doesn't really like.

April 4: Zindie makes this post:

]I think Kison, Battle Mage and Raffles would all be reasonable executions for the day.

Shall we have another look at his LoE? N9V he executed and came up scum. Tosater Strudel was elephanted at night. Cephrir's still alive. Bm he has found scummy consistently through the game, but frankly, BM looks no different here to when he was town in other games. I know Zindaras has indicated he will not try and metagame him yet, but it still smells opportunistic.

The fact that BM looks no different to you says squat. You have no info confirming BM as town. I am consistent in my suspicion of BM.

Kison I can also agree with, having just previously fosed him myself, but where on earth did raffles come from and where did Kison go? Again, no reasoning provided. Then suddenly, today

I want everyone to give their opinions on Battle Mage, Cephirir and MoS.

I can see the progression here, so this is not as important.

There were reasons behind all of them, which will be posted later.

Next, there's a trend. I will not quote posts for this section, beacuse I would need to quote far too many, but look for yourself: when Zindie defends himself, he only mentions the possibility of him being carthaginian and not the SK, but when he attacks (specifically Livingod), he mentions the possiblity of an SK.

The only time I ever mentioned the possibility of an SK on someone else was, if I remember correctly, livingod. I don't exactly see how that's odd. He's been useless, which is an SK-tell. He has several points for him not being Mafia, which an SK usually isn't. Which is one out of, what, nine suspicions I've voiced? Also, you seriously expect people to defend themselves from an accusation of being scum by proving they're not an SK? How many people that have been attacked in this game have attempted to prove they're not an SK?

Catching SKs is an entirely different thing from catching Mafia. Therefore, the tells, the arguments, are entirely different from an argument about being Mafia. The arguments I used to defend myself were arguments against being Mafia, because they are the clearest (see the connection between N9V and me).

Anyway, so that's my thoughts on Zindaras. I think his erraticness about his suspicions and his quietness about his reasoning, while still having that reasoning there is indicative of him being SK.

Exactly why do these indicate SKness?

[Zindaras]

fyi, consistency is not a town-tell. Its a stubborn-tell. Trust me-i do it enough.

You are incorrect. Scum tends to be more opportunistic.

I can see your point about excuses for scummy behaviour 'because thats just BM' as being stupid, however its equally as stupid as not using knowledge about my play ATALL.

You can hardly say I haven't used knowledge about your play at all. I have taken into account the fact that you tend to play oddly.

[Zindaras]

Tends

to be?
frankly thats not my opinion-but regardless, it is only your

opinion

.
any scum with an iq above 100 will try and be consistent to look good in the eyes of the down-in part based on logic such as that you have given. considering the experience of most players in this game, i dont think consistency can be used as a scumtell accurately.

All scum, even the most experienced ones, love easy lynches. Even this game shows us nice examples, see N9V's and Primate's votes on livingod.

You may have taken your knowledge of my play into account, but you havent reflected this in your stalwart attacks upon me.

If it weren't for the knowledge of your play, I'd be much more adamant about your death.

[Zindaras]

One thing I want to be clear with Zindaras is the execution regarding N9V. Yes, he did make a clear analysis, but the reasons for executing was rather reliant on gut. Yes?

It was a combination of the two. I had a bad gut feeling on him, and I had logic.

As much as I do trust my gut, in the game like this, I would be a little more careful about using gut as a reason for execution. In this game Consuls effectively hold all the vote. I would rather use it as a safety zone to fall back to, rather than my main reason for execution. If you get what I mean.

I use whatever works. I carry the responsibility of making a correct execution, whatever way I do it.

[Zindaras]

Knowing the theme of the game you are playing well is completely different from identifying the flavour of the serial killer. Especially if, as you now say, the flavour of the kills wasn't even posted day 1. Guessing that there were elephant(s) in the setup has little to do with your knowledge of the punic wars. Simply stating it says nothing is not enough, at least to my mind.

The elephants are probably one of the most defining things in the Punic Wars. Everyone knows the stories about Hannibal's elephants. The strategies employed by the Carthaginians to use the elephants, and later, by the Romans, against them. Besides, we were specifically talking about the flavour of other alignments. I don't see how being right about that is so odd.

In the next post mentioning elephants he insinuates that he knew that the kill was elpehantine. While this may be the case, and I strongly suspect it is, he never explicitly said it day 1, instead calling the idea of an elephant mafia awesome. So he's contradicted himself slightly there. Then finally, his last post he clearly indicates that he thinks it's an SK and not a mafia, as he implied in his first post.

It was something I had put in my mind a while before and I thought I had posted about it.

By the way you went about it, I mean the opacity of your reasoning to the rest of the town. The only post where you really elaborated on any opinions/suspicions you had was the final one, and you didn't even leave time for the rest of the town to react to your thoughts. We could have got some useful information out of that, but once N9V had been executed there was no way any scum would risk protecting him. As is evident with Primate. Your methods do not feel pro-town to me.

That's how I always work when I fall behind in games. I make some big analysis, post it, and go on. I also have already explained why I executed someone on the spot. I had expected more discussion, so I did it there so the execution could be vetoed and we still had the chance for another execution.

Also, this point is one that says I'm Mafia. An SK doesn't have a different way of execution than a Townie.

[Zindaras]

Shanba, you either need (new) glasses or you're outright trying to avoid the most blindingly obvious candidate ever.

[Zindaras]

And your theory is that Day 1 is so important to scum that they decided to risk it and all vote scumbuddy MoS for tribune? And if I was one of their scumbuddies, why didn't I try to come up with a reason to veto the N9V execution?

Primate says hi. This is not an argument.

[Zindaras]

The first part of the argument is nothing more than "It cannot be true, so it isn't true." Simply saying it does not make it impossible to be true. There must be reasoning.

Though, to be fairly honest, it is not a very strong argument against you anyway, because the scum already had a scum Consul, and thus didn't need a scum Tribune as well. Regardless, they could've just planted you there to be impossible to execute.

The point is, however, whatever way you see it, WIFOM (at least up to a certain level).

[Zindaras]

Actually, the first part of my argument is wanting to know if he

actually

finds that a plausible and likely thing to happen. As for it being WIFOM, pretty much EVERY defense can be argued as WIFOM of some kind. That doesn't make it WIFOM worth mentioning as a point against it. This was not a case where there were advanatages to making me tribune that were at least close to equal or outweighed what would happen when they were found out as scum. It's not like me and my scumbuddies discussed this before the game and decided that we should try to elect me tribune, because then if the rest of us die, MoS can argue that no scumgroup would ever risk themselves to make a buddy tribune Day 1. Or is that what you think DID happen?

There is indeed a trade-off between the alternatives. It is indeed an unlikely trade-off to be made. However, we cannot gaze into the minds of scumbags. I have often seen scumbags do things that they shouldn't have done. Often, when scum does something no one expects scum to do, it is because scum have a different point of view (which stands to reason). For all we know, you had to be Tribune Day 1 or die or something like that.

[Zindaras]

Noone else even speculated about the flavour of the scumgroups, yet you managed to correctly identify it in your first post. Everyone knows about Hannibal's elelphants, but I don't see how that translates into a correct guess without some kind of prior knowledge. Regardless, this boils down to interpretation and repetition of arguments now, so I'll leave it at this.

It makes logical sense, as I explained in the last post. Logically, the elephants are the most likely or only possible second scumgroup. TEOM asked/talked about a possible second scumgroup, so I put in my five cents.

Look, I know a lot of things about the Punic Wars, maybe/probably even some things that aren't possible to find on Wikipedia or wherever. I translated texts about the Punic Wars. Besides that, I have an unnatural interest in the Roman and Greek civilization and mythology.

I wouldn't know too much about your playstyle, having been in only as far as I can remember with you Kingmaker II where you are currently alive and your alignment is unknown.

Making an analysis like that is my standard move. If you want me to, I can find you a couple of examples.

As for the SK doesn't have a different style of execution to a townie, well... I've never seen an SK king, so I couldn't say, but I'm fairly sure that the execution styles would be different.

Why is the execution style of a Mafiate different from that of a Townie? Because he's not looking for scum. Because he knows who he shouldn't execute. An SK doesn't know who the scum are. His only goal is to not be exucuted. It could be argued that an SK, therefore, doesn't give a rat's ass about who he executes. In fact, his execution style is probably to look like he's playing like a bad townie.

That's how I'd suppose an SK would play in this game. Or, well, a standard SK. I'm not exactly standard.

But the discussion of the SK's playstyle should probably not be happening here.

[Zindaras]

LoL! That's gotta be some of the worst reasoning ever. Using that sort of logic, I could argue that every person in this game is scum, because of some fabricated little thing that the scum might've had to do on Day 1.

We've already seen at least one role that gets a boon from being Tribune. I do not see why a scumbag couldn't have a role like that.

[Zindaras]

One worth risking it all Day 1?

You are massively overstating the risk involved.

[Zindaras]

People who haven't given their opinion yet:

5. ubertimmy
8. Twito

While I admit it is somewhat enticing to execute either of them, I do not see a reason to do so yet. Anyway, now we can go on to the analysis.

I didn't really much care for how people thought about BM or MoS. I was only interested in Cephirir.

There's an important thing I said earlier in the game about Primate:

I think his early play was fairly good and my gut's telling me he's town, and, besides, he's my little monkey lieutenant, second-in-command in my search for scum. Aren't you, Primate?

Breadcrumbing Cop tells on Primate. See Space Monkey Mafia PMs.

I felt his defense of Cephirir Day One was very odd and made me feel like he was a Cop with town on him. I had hoped he would pick up the breadcrumb, but he didn't.

Cephirir is by far my top suspect right now.

[Zindaras]

Hmm, I only just noticed it's Cephrir and not Cephirir. Anyway, here are all his posts:

Post 1
Self-vote. Irrelevant.

Post 2
Votes Raffles, has a very minor town vibe on him, which is "more than he can say about everyone else."

Post 3
Response to AndrewS.

Post 4
Explains his Raffles vote again. Seems like he doesn't want to linger on it.

Post 5
Wants to ignore BM.

Post 6
Wants to vote BM. Wants us to see it as a random vote.

Post 7
Thinks AndrewS is scum.

Post 8
Response to BM's vote on him.

Post 9
Irrelevant.

Post 10
Isn't serious about his BM-vote. Wants Timmy, AndrewS or livingod executed. Note that AndrewS is town and livingod was the popular wagon Day One.

Post 11
Reasons for his proposed executions. Please note that N9V-lurker is not on the list, but livingod and timmy are there. Doesn't care who of timmy and livingod gets executed, which is a scumtell as well. AndrewS is purely OMGUS.

Post 12
Irrelevant.

Post 13
Questions why BM wants him executed.

Post 14
Apparently, he

does

want BM to die...

Post 15
Irrelevant.

Post 16
Votes me for Tribune.

Post 17
Raffles, Kison and BM are all okay with him. Kison moreso than Raffles. Not the complete disappearance of earlier stamped lurkers Ubertimmy and livingod.

Post 18
Irrelevant.

Post 19
Filler.

Post 20
Posts approval of Kison execution.

Post 21
Response to the accusations against him.

Post 22
Votes Raffles for Tribune...

Post 23
Does the assignment I told him to.

Post 24
Wants to execute BM.

All in all, Cephrir's posting only convinces me more that we should kill him.

[Zindaras]

Yosarian, please respond to my Cephrir case.

[Zindaras]

MoS, same request to you.

Also, lurkers like N9V don't often get killed that early. Usually, they last pretty long, actually. But people aren't likely to argue with you if you want them dead, though.

[Zindaras]

What Cephrir case? All you did was link to all his posts and call them irrelevant. You haven't explained why you find him scummy. Now, that's not saying I don't agree that he's scummy, since if you had read my posts in the past, you would know that I already posted a case against Cephrir myself in response to you asking me to share my thoughts about him. This request seems rather redundant.

Seriously?

-Relation with Primate, as stated before.
-Odd relation with AndrewS.
-Votes BM, doesn't want him executed, then he does want him executed, then he doesn't. There is no reason to vote someone you don't want executed. Very flip-floppy.
-End of Day One, he wants timmy, livingod or AndrewS (town) gone. Not BM, who he is still voting. As said before, livingod was the popular wagon Day One. Plus, livingod and timmy were on the list purely for lurking, while there were (many) other lurkers, like N9V-scum. Day Two, his suspicions change completely. Now it's Raffles, Kison and BM. He thinks BM is just being BM, which has suddenly become a reason to execute him. livingod and timmy have disappeared completely from the radar, and now it's the new popular choices (Kison and Raffles) that need to go.
-Relation with Raffles. In his second post, he votes Raffles for Tribune, becaues he's getting a pro-town vibe on him that he's not getting on other people. After that, he tries to get off the whole subject. In Post 17, he agrees with a Raffles execution but also slightly defends him, putting the other subjects ahead. Classic scumbuddy behaviour. And in Post 22, he suddenly thinks Raffles should be Tribune.

Ceprhir-Raffles-MoS. That's the way to go.


Also, BM, who are the alternatives you desire?

[Zindaras]

You're not on my LoE. There is only one person in my LoE and that's Cephrir.

Now, tomorrow, I want Raffles executed. Again, not you. Then, only the day after tomorrow, if Cephrir and Raffles both turn up scum, I think you should die. And that's because I'm getting odd vibes from you, connecting you to Cephrir and Raffles.

[Zindaras]

hrm...
I will not veto a Cephrir execution. I'm muchly opposed to a Raffles execution tomorrow though and would sooner see Zindie swing.

Forgive me for this, but you are an absolute bloody idiot if you want to see me swing. For god's sake, it's pure garbled nonsense. Do you expect Cogito Ergo Sum to not know who Descartes is? Do you expect mith to not know who Gandalf is? I know my Latin history, and anyone with the slightest knowledge of the Second Punic War, hell, anyone who even bothered to read the Wikipedia article, could've come up with the gaspingly bright idea that the only possibility for a second scum-group/killer was an elephant. Can you come up with another answer, huh? There ain't no other answer, savvy? Even the worst gambler can't fail on a multiple choice question which only has one possible answer. And then there's the whole "You're doing it the wrong way" argument, which is even grander display of sheer idiocy. Seriously, you don't know me, you don't know how I play. This is the first game that you've ever seen me play in. You have absolutely no idea how I catch scum, and you're basically saying my methods are scummy? How can you say my methods are scummy when you do not know which methods I use as scum and as town?

Zindie, are you saying that the only player you are suspicious of is Cephrir (and raffles/mos by association)? If Cephrir turns up town, who will you be going after tomorrow?

Probably someone else who's pushing this absolutely preposterous Zindelephant theory. Seriously, Shanba, I expected better of you. If it weren't for that claim, you'd probably be numero uno (though don't worry: I'll be looking quite heavily at you), but, for now, I'll be aiming my arrows at someone else. Raffles is another possibility. I am still completely not getting why he got Tribune'd today.


MoS, I'm getting slight vibes of connection between you and Raffles (less so about Cephrir). The most glaringly obvious thing of course the fact that you executed Kison above Raffles yesterday.

[Zindaras]

First off, when I don't know a player's playstyle, I will assume that they have a fairly conventional one and therfore things that are scummy for other players are scummy for them too. Are you seriously saying I shouldn't try and read people who's playstyle I do not know?

No, I'm saying you shouldn't attempt to use their playstyle against them, most certainly not before reading other games they've played in. If you don't do that, you're simply gambling that someone has a conventional playstyle.

As for the elephant thing: for all your saying that it's a logical thing to assume, noone else speculated on whether the elephants were scum or not.

Why couldn't there be 2 Mafias?
Although I doubt it, I think there still is a chance for that to occur.

It's Rome vs Carthage. There was no third group in that war.

Except maybe the elephants. That'd be a pretty awesome Mafia.

It was in response to TEOM, who basically asked what the possibilities for second Mafias are. No one else tried, apparently. No one responded to my thoughts. Is that my fault or theirs? I simply answered a question.

You've made three seperate posts discussing the flavour of the SK and you seem to have got it right. Is it impossible that there were other explanations for the night 1 kill? A newb vig, perhaps. An insane doctor, perhaps.

Only one post was made before Night 2, and that post was an answer to a question about second Mafia groups. In no way did it suggest it was the correct and only solution to the question at hand.

Maybe CES decided just for kicks to put in time traveling aliens from the future who were responsible for the night 1 kill?

I'm sorry, but this is an absolute bonkers suggestion. There is no way in hell that Cessy's going to deviate from the source material. He'll keep it as close to the truth as he can.

Of course, we now know that this is almost certainly not true but we didnt when you made your comments.

We didn't know at the time of the first comment. At the time when the second and third comments were made, what did we not know that we do know now?

Posting my thoughts as to who I think is scum and backing it up with reasoning is scummy? You cannot be serious.

Your reasoning is bonkers.

I want you to outline your case for Raffles to me, as you seem to be the only one finding him suspicious.

I'll do that at a later point in time. Bit busy now.

I'm not sure what you mean by a Primate link, though. Could you clarify that?

Primate put him as town for absolute no reason whatsoever. Look a bit through Primate's posts. He mentions Cephrir a disproportionate amount of times, and thinks he's town every time.

Since I seem to be the prime target, should I claim now or after someone executes me?

As far as I'm concerned, you might as well claim now, because I'm not planning to execute anyone but you.

[Zindaras]

Elaborate on your choices. Now. Because, from where I'm looking, you're just making this stuff up. There was no difference in kill methods between the three "Killed' deaths. You just happened to decided not to kill someone the nights the "Killed" deaths were on people you would not be able to explain. Also, what's the flavour behind your role?

[Zindaras]

I actually think his claim makes a lot of sense. The fact that he messed up his night choices and then immediately corrected them makes me more positive that he's genuine about it, too.

No. If there is anything this claim does not make, it is sense. For one, he killed Toaster Strudel N2 when he never even mentioned her before (trusting Primate's scum list over his own, apparently), and most certainly wasn't among his top suspects. Same principle for the N3 kill. He decides not to kill anyone, even when he has said a couple of people are scum. His choices do not in any way fit in with his proposed suspicions.

And then there's the flavour. Apparently, he hasn't become a great general in this reality. However, if he isn't a general, he can't possibly be Africanus. In fact, he just can't be Africanus at all, because Africanus was the title given to him after he defeated Hannibal at Zama and defeated the Carthaginians.

[Zindaras]

Essentially, we do not know how realistic this scenario is. The only time frame we can place it in are the couple of lines given by Cessy. The little part about the Battle of Cannae could provide an interesting clue as to how this hypothetical scenario deviates from the truth. After Cannae, Maharbal (I think it was Maharbal), Hannibal's second-in-command, spoke to Hannibal, attempting to convince him to march on Rome. However, Hannibal did not dare to do so, instead fighting a war of attrition in Italy. Some have criticised Hannibal's decision not to march on Rome. We are probably dealing with a scenario where Hannibal did march on Rome.

Something I did notice, however, is that Hucky, upon death, was revealed to be the Shield of Rome, a title not bestowed upon him until after the end of the Second Punic War.

Anyway, I bothered to take a look at Cessy's last big game, Goats Mafia. The scum in Goats were given fake claims. The fact is, Cephrir's targeting choices are very odd, something I believe we should put more trust in than his name and flavour.

[Zindaras]

I actually think his claim makes a lot of sense. The fact that he messed up his night choices and then immediately corrected them makes me more positive that he's genuine about it, too.

So what about this, Mossydear?

[Zindaras]

You agreed with his targets? Because, if I'm looking at that post, it looks a whole lot like you don't want Cephrir to die.

[Zindaras]

One-shot Mafia killers are not that rare.

[Zindaras]

I wouldn't veto a cephrir kill. That being said, something about Battle Mage's last couple of posts is making me a bit uneasy about it.

Yeah, BM suddenly likes me.

[Zindaras]

It's a wee bit late for second thoughts.

Maul: Cephrir

.

[Zindaras]

No, this was far too late for any defending of scumbuddies. If Cephrir is scum, I'd actually say it's less likely that Yossy is scum as well.

[Zindaras]

I've been busy working on a project. It's finished now (or at least the concept, which is most of the work), so I have a bit of free time now)

Oh. Whoops. I forgot we were voting for Tribunes. Ain't no way I want Zindaras as Tribune. I was voting him for being scum

unvote, Vote For Tribune: Shanba

Gogogadget elaboration would do you well. You still haven't provided any sensible case at all.

I have something to say about what people are saying about me, but I'd like to wait until we get everyone's opinion so I can catch as many people in the rebuttal as possible. I don't want people to change what they're going to say and act like they didn't think about it before I pointed it out. Zindy, remind me about this when you get everyone's response.

I don't believe you ever got back to this.

Anyway, I find your move against me rather amusing, Mossydear. You sillily put me on your LoE Day 2 over tangential reasoning. Yesterday, you were ever so nice. Or should I say scared? And now a new day dawns and you're ever so sure I'm scum.

*giggles*

[Zindaras]

I was sure you were scum yesterday, as well. Shanba convinced me of that, but there's no use going after you on a day you can't die, other than just saying I believed you were scum.

It sure didn't stop Shanba from going after me, now did it? You didn't mingle in the debate. In fact, all you're doing is echoing Shanba, which is a rather weak spot to be in, anyway, since he never responded to my Post 912. You haven't defended the case, yet you simply deem it to be usable for attacking me.

[Zindaras]

I feel that it's strong enough that he shouldn't be entrusted with the Tribune position.

O rly?

Yarr rly!

TEOM (I believe it was him) specifically asked a question about second scum teams. I simply answered the question. Now, I answered this question, saying the elephants could be a second Mafia (not even an SK).

Now, what is your point? You'd have a point, if the elephants weren't the

only friggin' possibility

. As I've said before, there is no real surprise in answering a multiple-choice question correctly if there is only one possible answer.

Your reasoning for finding me scummy cannot lie in the fact that I answered the question. It lies in the fact that I answered the question correctly. But the fact that I answered the question correctly says nothing.

There is no other answer

. What should I have said, according to you? Nothing? How would

you

have answered that question?

Also, I really really like how you pull out only a specific part of the post to respond to and not the whole post.

Tribunal Vote Count

Shanba - 3(Mastermind of Sin, Battle Mage, Occult)
Zindaras - 2(Rand Althor, Yosarian2)

[Zindaras]

Amusing, Mossy, that you decide not to respond to a post which is specifically aimed at you, with questions specifically asked of you.

[Zindaras]

I would not have expected Elephants to be a suggestion, nor would I have been able to come up with an answer to that question.

Then your point is flawed. For your point against me relies on the assumption that only the Elephant SK would answer that question with a suggestion of elephants, which you yourself do not even know.

[Zindaras]

By they way, I drop my suspicion of Zindaras. I was wrong, but I like being stubborn =P. You defended yourself very admirably, congrats. ^_^

Thank you. I try. I <3 you too.

[Zindaras]

Hmpf, I am comfortable with pretty much only Yos right now (which probably means he's scum), but I also don't think any single person jumps out in scumminess.

[Zindaras]

We should consider a mass claim, I think.

[Zindaras]

I need to check for specifics, but BM's attack method on Cephrir reminds me a wee bit of what he's done in other games I can't refer to as scum.

[Zindaras]

I was in LO2. If I remember correctly, Yos was on every lynch until we killed him. Of course, the LO setup means that town should probably play more aggressively.

[Zindaras]

The vig claimed targets. Those targets are not possible without another killing role next to the Mafia.

[Zindaras]

Nono, Scipio Africanus was the Roman General who defeated Hannibal at Zama. The Romans did not use elephants in the war against Carthage (if I am correct). The nickname Africanus was given to him because he beat Africa, basically.

[Zindaras]

I'm on Sarcy's side on this one.


I've played quite a bit with Rand, and I don't think that pushing for something wrong is a tell either way.

"Ceterum censeo Carthaginem delendam esse" Vote Count

Rand Althor - 1(Sarcastro)
Battle Mage - 1(Yosarian2)

[Zindaras]

We have a week left. I think it's time our Consuls start thinking about an execution.

[Zindaras]

I'm getting the feeling we're thinking too much inside the box, but I'll take a look at their individual posts anyway:

Rand: Votes self for tribune. Iffy stance on BM, fifty-fifty, non-committal. Was voted by Primate in Post 291. I suggest people look at it and see if they think that was distancing. A quick glance at Primate's posts reveal that Primate has only stated Rand was scum and never why. Could be bussing. Offensive on BM, he actually tries to raise some points in 547. Gives BM a 7, Cephrir a 5 and MoS a 4 when I asked everyone to give marks. Still wants a BM lynch.

Well, you gotta hand it to him, he is very consistent in his suspicions. I doubt he's bussing BM, too. Way too serious for that, and he could've bussed N9V while he was at it. There's a possible link with Primate, though.

Battle Mage: Possible tie with Twito, as he votes Twito for Tribune from the get-go. Interesting non-answer in Post 40, especially seeing how Primate did turn out to be scum. Possibly trying to avoid saying bad things about his scummate. Woe-is-me in 52. Tries to wagon both himself and Raffles to tribune. FoSes TS, Primate and me over voting MoS for Tribune. Suggests Cephrir as "noob scum" in 286. More woe-is-me. Suggests TEOM is being the overprotective scumbuddy of Cephrir. FoSes Kison and Panzerjager for being scum with TEOM. Says ubertimmy is likely to be town if TEOM is scum, because a scumbag's only contribution would not be a vote on a buddy. Is "okay" with an N9V execution, which is also the first post in which he mentions N9V at all. Votes Twito for Tribune

again

in 461. Feels at least one of Primate/Zindaras is scum. Thinks Zindaras is scummier than Primate. Votes livingod pretty much out of nowhere. OMGUS-reaction to Rand. I still don't think he ever responded in a sufficient way to Post 629. Post 675 is a classic. He would apparently expect better of a player with the abilities of MoS (abilities which he did not believe MoS had early on in the game). Defense of Raffles by preferring Kison and me and stating there is no logic behind Raffles and him as lynch targets. He keeps focusing on TEOM. IGMEOY's MoS but approves of his execution in 722. Horrible logic in 740, suggests MoS is scum because he is a "stronger player" (again, something he did not acknowledge early in the game) and the scum should've killed him. Is certain one of TEOM-MoS is. Interesting, then, that now TEOM has come up town, BM isn't voting MoS. Votes Yos for Tribune. FoSes Occult for voting TEOM for Tribune. Gives MoS a 7 and Cephrir a 6 in my little assignment. Thinks the case of Zindelephant is strong. Agrees with Shanba's preliminary LoE of MoS and TEOM. Doesn't mind a Cephrir execution. Thinks Cephrir is scum now and pushes him quite heavily. Suggests Yos as Cephrir's scumbuddy. Wants MoS as Tribune now, even though he was his second candidate after TEOM the day before. Now he's getting pushy on Yos, the guy he earlier wanted to be Tribune.

Interesting links with Twito and Raffles, a lot of flip-flops and changes of opinion, agrees a lot with popular opinion.

BM is by far preferrable over Rand.

Vote: Battle Mage

[Zindaras]

EBWOP: Also, Primate put BM as "neutral" in his opinion list.

[Zindaras]

Very touching, BM.

I'm not going to veto this execution. I've already outlined (with no response) why I feel BM is the scummiest.

Actually, Sarcy, what do you think about the cases I outlined in Post 1194. Do you believe Primate was bussing his buddy, Rand?

[Zindaras]

Well, I believe Rand is scum, so if Rand is Carthage-scum and not Elephant-scum, then yes. Unless you're asking if I think Primate was attempting to do something other than bus/distance, in which case I'm not sure what other motive scum would have for expressing suspicion of their buddies.

No, you see, that's deciding Rand is scum and that Primate was therefore bussing him. The question is: does it look like Primate's bussing Rand? For all I know, you never even noticed the fact that Primate was voting Rand.

[Zindaras]

I'd prefer Sarc or Yos as Tribune today, as I'm fairly sure I'm not going to execute either.

[Zindaras]

I would really prefer Sarcastro or Yosarian as Tribune, to be honest.

Vote: Sarcastro

There's been some things about Shanba that feel off, and I'd like to take a closer look at those things.

[Zindaras]

Doofus or doofa?

*giggles*

Lots of doofi running around.

*giggles more*

[Zindaras]

Well, yes, but correct Latin spelling was not required for the joke.

Also, I'm tired as hell. Cut me some slack. Pwease?

[Zindaras]

I'm interested in Shanba because of his LoE of MoS-TEOM-Zindaras (if he could) when he was Consul.

As far as my decision goes, I'm currently considering two options:

-Rand: Too much suspicion cast on him to ignore for an execution.
-Zindie's gut surprise: Currently most likely to die on this one is Occult, followed by Raffles.

Also, Twito needs replacement. And Rand probably too, as he has problems logging onto MS.

I want people to contribute on this LoE.

[Zindaras]

Eh. Occult didn't really do as much of his own reasoning as I would like to see while he was consul, but other then that not really getting any major scum vibes off of him.

Zind, can you explain what it is you don't like about occult?

You pretty much said it yourself. Not thinking is a pretty large scumtell in my book. Wants BM dead for a long while, then does a complete 180 at wants Rand. I've also noted an IGMEOY on MoS, a statement saying Kison is scum, and being on the fence with Zindaras (I don't like people on the fence. I usually want to kick them off).

[Zindaras]

Vitamin, at what exact time does the day end?

I'm not going to execute Raffles, as Sarcastro would veto him if he would have the opportunity and I think it's mean to just slip it by him. My choice will be Occult or Rand.

[Zindaras]

For the record, Zindy, it's impossible for you to slip it by me. The deadline is in less than 48 hours, so the execution won't go through unless I explicitly waive my right to veto.

Hmm, I guess I should read the rules better.

I'm currently heavily doubting between the gut feel on Occult against the general consensus on Rand. Couple that with the fact that Occult may be a better target for tomorrow's execution, as we'll be able to get more input on him that way, and I have no idea what I'm going to do.

[Zindaras]

The problem is that I don't know. I'm fifty-fifty on this entire thing. The case against Rand is fairly solid, but the way everyone thinks he's scum just gives me the creeps. Occult used to be livingod, who got a pretty big wagon on him Day One until I called crap on it and executed N9V instead. Looking at the wagon, he got three votes (from Raffles, HackerHuck and Panzerjager) before two scumbags (Primate and N9V) jumped on it. Primate and N9V's posts could both be interpreted as bussing, but I can also see the case for them being scum wagoning.

I think that, whatever I do, you shouldn't immediately waive your veto. Whoever I'm going to execute probably won't have claimed by then, and we probably want to see a claim. I figure we still have a couple of power roles running around.

Oh, and yes, this does mean that I want

Occult

and

Rand Althor

to claim as soon as possible.

[Zindaras]

I have made my decision. It was a difficult path, one bereft with peril and temptations (ooooh, shiny other games with no difficult decisions).

But I have come to the following decision:

Maul: Occult

[Zindaras]

23:35 was the time of my last post.

[Zindaras]

I think the deadline rules are really awkward, but I'm under the impression we get our 48 hour decision time.

[Zindaras]

I blame Cessy's silly fancy English for this stuff.

I think you're right about that, Sarcy. <3

[Zindaras]

I've regretted and unregretted this particular execution at least 4 times.

[Zindaras]

I gots deaded.

Good lucks.

[Zindaras]

I'm amused by the fact that Sarcastro not allowing me to execute Raffles finally lost the game for us, and for him as well.

I executed Occult for one reason and one reason only: Rand's early day claim. I looked it up and found his guy's nickname had been "Sword of Rome". That convinced me he was talking the truth.

[Zindaras]

You think this is long? Kingmaker II will soon reach its first anniversary.

[Zindaras]

Actually, Sarc, in the end, I would've been forced to peg you as scum, simply through process of elimination. If I had bothered more yesterday, I should've seen it myself.

As far as catching more scum than the town goes...I killed N9V on Day One and pointed a lot at Raffles after that. In fact, had I had the chance, I could very well have executed Raffles yesterday. Rand wasn't going at that point anymore, so I had to do Occult. You killed Primate, sure, which would be a good catch if you had done it on the basis of suspecting he was scum, which I really can't say and don't know.

As an aside, BM, you're simply wrong on a few points. The Mafia had four members including the traitor, and Raffles was Consul on Day 4. In fact, he made the execution that day.

[Zindaras]

EBWOP: Not saying you played badly, Sarcy, as you obviously didn't. You played very well.

[Zindaras]

Yeah, I was kinda wondering about that...

But why Raffles and Occult on Day 4?

Blech, looking back on this game, I can't see why I let Raffles live for so long after I found him scummy. Damn me. >.<

[Zindaras]

No, Sarcy, I don't think you're being a sore loser. I think you've played very well. I think you lost in a horrible fashion (in fact, I told Cessy that the unkillable Mafiate was unfair to you when he told me the setup).

(Though I do think you're being silly with the record thing )

As far as finding you scum goes, I'm probably just arguing in retrospect now that I know you had to die.

Just a bit annoyed at the whole "Don't kill Raffles" thing yesterday. *sad*

[Zindaras]

Well, yeah. I said "Occult, followed by Raffles". Which would put Raffles in third place. Rand subsequently dropped off the lost, and Yosarian (or was it you? Whoever reminded me of the livingod wagon) made me rethink Occult. I would've given Raffles a lot of thought at that point.

[Zindaras]

Oh, that way. That was actually a pretty good plan. If BM had been scum, it would've been perfect.

[Zindaras]

Oh i know about the traitor. However i don't believe he ever succeeded in finding us, and so didn't actually join the Mafia itself.

That might be because I, y'know, kinda killed him on the first day.

I gathered you thought that. but there again, the fact that you never considered executing me, implies that you obviously weren't as confident as your appeared.

Why would he need to execute you? He just had to convince Rand to protect him, then execute either of the scum (and Raffles here was most obvious, since he had actually

claimed

scum), and he'd be able to kill you, the other scum, in the following night, thereby winning the game, as there was no longer a Consulmaker.

Personally i maintain that all 3 scum deserved the win. Both Raffles and Twito especially did great to reach that point in the game. You're upset because you let Twito-scum lurk his way to victory?

Raffles was under suspicion for a long time (and I think he mainly got out of being executed by being Consul'd) and Twito made 27 posts in the entire game.

To be honest, they both deserved to die.

More later.

[Zindaras]

Ah, yes, that was pretty much it, actually. Just wanted to say that, looking in retrospect, the Mafia did play quite...badly. (except Primate, but he kinda got killed early on)

N9V got killed Day One. Twito escaped scrutiny throughout the game simply by virtue of his inactivity. Primate got stomped. Raffles escaped execution every time since Day 1. On Day 2, he was the second choice to Kison. On Day 3, he was the second choice to Cephrir. On Day 4, he was Consul. On Day 5, he would've been first or second, had Sarcastro not announced a veto on his execution.

[Zindaras]

Actually, Shanba, it made a good deal of sense.

The Zindie=Elephant=SK thing was rather silly, though.

[Zindaras]

By the way, my argument with Zindie early on has got to be the best thing ever. ^5

Oh, hell yes. That was hilarious.

A reference to it has been added to my wiki. It must be kept for future people to read.