Scummies Invitational 2012 (Game Over)

[Matias]

Okay, you're basically saying that because this is the same number of players in a typical Day 1 mini, that we should treat the game as a Day 1 and use Day 1 informationless tells, even though it's Day 4 and we have 7 flips, right?

Tell me why anyone should listen to you about anything? Even if Benmage is wrong about the tell, you're twisting his point heavily.

[Matias]

EBWOP: "that we should treat the game as a Day 1 and use Day 1 informationless tells"

Should be: that we should treat the game as a Day 1 and not use Day 1 informationless tells

[Matias]

Ugh. Let me spell this out for you.

post 3010[/url], Oversoul"]VOTE: DV

Please explain Reck.

First, he said he'd "need to iso" which is a great way to delay really taking a stance. Then, he called the main competing argument "town vs town" with no explanation behind either (which 8 times out of 10 is coming from scum) and that solidifed it. He reeks of a scumbag who feels awkward putting a foot down on either side for fear of it coming back to bite him.

Thats a D1 tell.... he wouldn't feel the need to double buddy on D4 if scum.

His argument is that "I understand what you are saying, but that is a scum tell on Day 1 of games, when there is not a lot of information, not late in the game like it is now"

Which you respond "This game has the same number of players as a mini, so it basically fits now"

Even though both situations (Day 4 in a large game with 13 players and Day 1 in a mini with 13 players) are two ENTIRELY different situations. You're taking Benmage's point and saying it doesn't apply in this situation, when it DOES.

A different story is whether or not you believe the tell. If you don't, then say so, but don't create such a bullshit point that follows bunk logic.

Obviously, you don't believe Benmage on the tell. So if that's the case, answer my question. What from the Bulbazak vs. Feirei argument was actually logical and hard-hitting instead of tunneling and white noise?

[Matias]

Then that's fine. If you believe the tell is true but happens on any day except for the first day, that's all you needed to say. But again, point out where I need to take a stance on Bulbazak vs. Feirei and call one of them scum based on their arguments (in other words, show me something that one of them said to the other that makes for an actual pertinent point). I have stepped back and said, multiple times now, that both of their cases towards each other are convoluted and tunnely and I don't take value in their arguments against each other because I see them both as genuine, but wrong. I have asked Nacho the same thing, and I asked him why everyone should follow him onto the Bulbazak wagon. I am trying to figure out what people are seeing in them that I am not.

And once again, I will have a DeasVail ISO tomorrow when I wake up. You think that I'm just going to say I'll do an ISO and not do it.

[Matias]

What would you like me to do that's more than what I'm currently doing?

I'm not saying this as some sort of argument that I have done enough, nor is it intended to demean your scumread on me (although I am a bit confused by it), but I am genuinely interested.

I missed this, didn't ignore it. Busy past few days. Like Nacho pointed out, I just got the general feeling that you weren't doing enough but I could be wrong. I'll answer this fully when I look through your posts in an hour or so.

[Matias]

Okay, big ISO coming. For the record, by pure number of posts alone, DV is the 3rd lowest still alive (CES and Feirei are lower), but that's superficial.

So you'd think Reck's a fun guy, right?

Community contributor, shiny American flag and all that jazz. His party is the place to be, right?

WRONG.

By forming his fancy club, he has doomed the rest of us to endless nights of watching our favourite romantic comedy on repeat, holding in our arms a tub of ice cream and lonely tears.

Are you sick of standing awkwardly in the shadows, watching others have the time of their lives?

Have you always wished your life was as exciting as a romantic comedy?

Do you just want to be cool?

Be somebody, and

VOTE: xRECKONERx

today!

He's also kinda scummy, so

~~

In other news, I think Tierce is town because self-meta is quite seriously pretty great.

Ok, that's pretty cool actually.

Unvote: xRECKONERx

Is Benmage just faking ignorance in an effort to look town? I can't really tell.

I have no idea who I scumread now. I'll get back to you!

First vote and unvote of the game. Didn't have a lot of early Day 1 activity. It's worth noting that he fell off the Reck wagon super easily when he found out it was made up. Saying that Benmage may be faking ignorance to look town and then following it up the line after by saying he has no idea who to scumread is logical I guess (he never explicitly says Benmage is scum) but really weird regardless

Ugh if I fall for suspecting any more deliberately bogus reads, I'll do... something. I don't know yet.

Also, if we do go down the lynching CES route, which I'm a bit hesitant about because I don't think he's incredibly scummy now, I would be happy to be replaced. I think that I'm a fairly common townread this game so people could agree to it, and most importantly I know that I'm town. I'm also not a great town player, so I don't think I'd be missed a great deal. Don't take this as me wanting to leave, because as long as I'm in this game I'm playing to win, but it may be worth considering. Another thing is that if CES is town, then I'd be reluctant to have him replace a slot like Elmo/Kdowns because CES as scum is more dangerous than Elmo/kdowns as scum (if only because the latter are more likely to be lynched regardless of their alignment), so it would be a mislynch, plus making the scumteam stronger if his new slot were scum.

Despite this, as I mentioned earlier, I'm not sure of the idea, but I can't deny the reward if CES is scum.

Unvote: CES
Vote: Amrun

I have a question for you about this at the end (or Nacho, since he brought up something about this to my knowledge), stay tuned.

It's worth noting that DV's suspicion on Johhog at this point started to grow, but didn't follow hito onto the wagon. That's fine as well, you said you weren't that sold on him at this point.

Amrun please post and make all the bad feelings go away.

What bad feelings were you feeling as of this point? You didnt mention her. It's now midway through the first day at this point; a lot of your posts had to do with Tierce and CES at the time.

I'm sorry about not making a post earlier than this.

Regarding the timing of Tierce's claim, it's a fairly big thing to reveal such a mechanic to everyone. I think it's very plausible that Tierce wasn't sure whether to out herself at first, but later decided that the potential benefits outweighed the potential consequences.

Magua, 812 is more hostile than I'd expect. You read me as town, so you can't be that frustrated over lack of readability on my part. The hostility itself probably indicates that you're not interested in having my opinion influence yours, so I'm just confused. Please know that this is not, 'boo hoo, Magua is being a meanie!' The hostility is only very slight (I can't think of a better word), and I don't really care about that. It just feels off to me.

I have not been wowed by any of the reasons for scum-Tierce, with the one Matias posted being particularly flawed in my opinion. I find Tierce fairly townish and agree with Nacho that her coming out with this scheme is strange for scum. She may not have expected such suspicion as early as this, but I doubt she as scum would have really wanted us to lynch CES, as him flipping town would undoubtedly create the suspicion that has already surfaced, and him flipping scum... well...
I think the most likely possibility is that she came up with this with no intention of ever having the town lynch CES. I don't think this is quite as ridiculous as Nacho does, but it's not incredibly likely. I also feel that Tierce's alignment becomes more obvious as the game goes on, so this combined with her award role makes me think that lynching Tierce is not a very good idea for today, even for those who do think she's scummy.

I'm pretty sure I'd already stated my opinion on kdowns and elmo, which you should have expected to be limited because of their lack of posts? Kdowns slightly more town than Elmo. Both possible scum, both possible town. There you go.

~~

Please don't say faking a daykill is ballsy. It's way too common for that.

Do the Fate voters think Reck is dumb or scum with Fate? I think neither, so I'm not voting Fate! You guys should do the same!

Tierce, I think I can be pretty indecisive as town too...

889 is ???

I could see Amrun being very apologetic about replacing out as town. I know I would be, for example.

Fate, it's possible Tierce is scum, but I am confident that the point about her not claiming until later is no good so please don't use it anymore.

YES NACHO PLEASE TELL THEM

Could I please get an opinion from ~the party~ on Singer?

Why are people so against the Magua wagon? I don't think it's where I want to place my vote, but I don't think he's a stupid lynch or anything.

Vote: kanyeknowsbest

This is where your points started becoming very choppy and random, but I can think of a few people that have done this this game, so the only thing I can really say is that it really helps with apathy, which apparently could go more towards town for you (Nacho and you both stated that you slack off as town; again, question about that later). The kanye vote seems really random, a lot like Amrun's.

Unvote: kanye
Vote: Magua

Eep.

At this point, Magua looked far more town than kanye did, in my eyes.

I don't know what to make of DV's Reck vote, but I know that I don't know what he is getting at.

I'm not sure why you tried to take it seriously.

Well it was weird. If it wasn't serious, then fine, but the vote was serious, I guess?

Well yes, I did say he was scummy.

This back and forth between Zdenek and you happened. The vote, while looking not serious at first, was followed up with serious reasoning, so I can't believe that I missed this and didn't ask you the same thing.

@Magua: I was referring to Tierce's award role in particular, not just any old award role. I also think I made it pretty clear in my post that I didn't have a problem with your post other than what it possibly meant for your alignment, so you reducing my post to just being defensive is incorrect.

It was also pretty obvious that what I was thinking there is that you weren't actually interested in asking me the question beyond asking for the sake of asking, which I thought could come from scum (this answers your question after the all-caps by the way). I am trying to read people here, not have hissy fits over how people talk. Please assume the former and not the latter when reading my posts.

Regarding my read on Magua, I think that 1134 is quite town. First, he seems oblivious to the possibility that I think he could be asking a question without caring about the answer, which would not be the case if he was scum (there's always the chance that it's put on though). Additionally, the reaction to my post is overblown but not unrealistically so (in my opinion), and I think that scum would make a calmer response.

My vote for kanye was made after reading his ISO and not seeing anything particularly town there. I didn't have any strong scumreads at the time and I thought most of the wagons were bad, so I thought I'd see if anything would come from it rather than have no vote.

I don't agree with the reasoning for Magua's Oversoul townread though. It really isn't that ballsy.

Feirei is leaning town too for very obviously ignoring Reck's townread on Fate.

Unvote: Magua
Vote: Elmo

I don't know.. I just can't think of anything better right now.

Oh. There we go.

I'm liking this post a lot better than a lot of your early ones, though it's still spastic in style. You followed up on your Amrun read, too.

Oh and if it's Magua vs. Johhog I don't know yet and am torn.

You've stated a really decent town read on Magua but you haven't made a solid decision on Johhog at this point. Did Johhog get anymore town by this point or were you just confused by the competing wagons (or maybe something else that I'm not seeing)?

Townreads:

Fate (until Reck says otherwise)
Hitogoroshi
Oversoul
Magua
Matias
Nachomamma8
xRECKONERx

Weaker Townreads:

Feirei (main concern is that others seem to have confident scumreads)
LLD (1189 is pretty questionable though)
Zdenek

Not sure, but not keen to lynch:

Benmage- I have no idea
Cogito Ergo Sum
SalmonellaDreams- Petapan was ok, but Salmonella's apparent lack of attempt to read Johhog is concerning. I'm not sure that no further comment than 'null' really cuts it.
Tierce

I have Bulbazak and Singersigner as scumreads. I still think that Bulbazak's attitude to the Day 1 lynch does not match up with his belief that the scum were obvious. His posts that display this suggest that he was frustrated with how we were missing this, so the complete lack of hope that we'd realise how obvious they were and be interested in lynching them feels wrong to me and does not match with the personality that his other posts suggest he has. The kanye scum-flip only encourages me in this because if Bulbazak is scum it's obvious he wasn't actually interested in lynching his 'scumreads'.

I was hoping that the party would sort singersigner out, but after Day 1 it seems like reactions to her are still pretty lukewarm, so she now belongs with Bulbazak. I remember agreeing with Oversoul about 885 and her justification in 998 just feels fake. I think there was something else too, but I can't recall it now. I'll probably post it if I do.

Vote: Bulbazak

~~

Nacho townread:

Someone please show me I'm wrong, but I'm not seeing how Nacho is scummy, and he's actually one of my decent townreads at the moment. His early game gave me a weaker townread, but later on, his Tierce read is just all over the place, and not how I imagine scum would approach such a controversial player. In 224 she's scum, this being until 412. Then there's a sudden strong scumread in 494 (I was so confused here that I thought he meant town instead of scum for a moment) and Tierce is town again in 636!!! I feel like scum would put more effort into showing town just how 'town' their read progression on Tierce is, or at least make sure it was kind of consistent. The Tierce read just feels too messy to come from Nacho as scum. 811 seems pretty genuine too.
I do have a couple of qualms, but they don't seem that significant, and I really don't have a huge problem with his hammer?

Not a bad post here. This is a lot better than the choppy, random, lazy points that you've made a few times before (but you will continue to make them in the future; I'm trying to figure out whether apathy just forces those posts out of you).

Bulbazak at this point is very obviously a scumread to you, so that is worthy to note.

I could see Zdenek as scum, but I have significant doubts at the same time. He's definitely my preferred existing wagon, but I'd feel more comfortable lynching Salmonella at this stage.

Vote: SalmonellaDreams

Main thing is still the null read on Johhog at the end of Day 1 where I feel Johhog was the kind of player that was easy enough to have a non-null read on (what with Hito's case and his posts directed at Reck), so considering that he was the major Day 1 wagon, I feel that SD would have had more to say about him than the easy and convenient, 'Johhog's null so I can compromise on him.'

but you had a null read on Johhog near the end of the day (or at least, an unclear one).

Worst post of the ISO so far.

Sorry for taking so long to get back to this.

Bulbazak, what made you decide that it wasn't only if Zdenek was scum that Reck's wishy-washy post was bad? Also, has your read on me changed for any reason other than that I scumread you?

I don't like 2273 from Bulbazak. I think it's the 'I want to look good' answer rather than the honest answer.

I think 2287 is a pretty weak reason to townread Salmonella.

Benmage, you don't seem to be very fussy with your townreads (see above comment), yet I have somehow disappeared from your townlist. Why is this?

Oh look I'm not crazy for once. Yay!

I think 2299 might be a towntell (although I am cautious). He seems really keen to prove that it is actually a misrep, and it seems to go beyond what scum would need to do, and more in line with townie stubbornness. But then all that stuff about Fate bussing just seems really faked? Uhhhh

Nacho, you didn't trust me before?

Vote: SalmonellaDreams

And you voted him here again. Was this just forgetting that you voted him?

@DeasVail: A combination of apathy and being overwhelmed by this player list.

I understand the apathy, but don't let the player list overwhelm you. They may be louder, but they're wrong a fair bit of the time too! (see: mislynches this game)

Bulbazak, so when first asked about your decision to move from your Reck vote, you give 2 reasons (1. Lack of interest 2. You being under attack from Reck)

When I ask you about the second, you don't actually answer it, but instead repeat the first reason.

Should I think you're scum?

/approves of the SD wagon.

What was the point of this post? It's kinda useless.

Yes, do you have a problem with it?

Ok, I think Salmonella might be town? I don't know. Claiming a roleblock on Fate because he's a VT and a roleblock on

Fate

are both pretty strange decisions to make as scum. However, if he actually did visit Fate that night and wants to avoid being proven guilty, this would make the most sense as a reason (even if it doesn't actually make any sense).

Yeah ok, he may not have been able to say 'Fate's the SK!!!' after the roleblock, but you don't say someone's town when you don't actually think they are. Nacho's 2428 probably seals it for me.

The 'significant doubt' isn't something I'm prepared to believe. He had a strong enough suspicion that he wanted to roleblock Fate again, but didn't have that affect his public read on Fate? I know that when I'm a PR it affects how I read people, and although I obviously don't say 'not sure about Fate because PR' usually you'd say something that matches your thought process at the time.

I agree with others that Fate is probably an SK though.

I think we should just tell Fate that he kills who we tell him to or dies. I mean, he can have one last free kill if he wants to, but is that according to his win condition? No, so he'll come around. Even if he doesn't, lynching him tomorrow is really no big deal. Let's lynch SD.

Matias, he can get rid of at most one non-town approved target. That's a pretty tolerable worst case scenario.

Tierce, I'm not scum.

Matias, I'm pretty sure Fate-SK's best chance at this point is to kill who we want him to and hope it ends up as a kingmaker scenario. If Fate shoots someone we don't want him to, then that proves to us that he's of no use, so if he's playing to his win condition he will do what we tell him.

YESS NACHO

So yes, I'm up for lynching SD, but I think we should tell Fate who to kill.

This is weird too.

Obviously, at this point, the strangest connection you've had was with SD.

Then you vote singer at the start of the day, onto Benmage after her claim. You've expressed doubt about Bulbazak.

So, altogether, I wasn't WRONG about you having low activity. It's basically what you've done with it, which is half concise, well put together thoughts and half pieced together mish mashes of things. You did a lot of side stepping with SD, which really looks iffy to me.

Questions for Deas:

1. What meta proof do you have that you are very hyper-active (or at least more active) as scum than town, or at least proof that you're willing to be replaced as town?
2. Was it real life that forced you to break down your posts into random replies, or is that your posting style?
3. What is your final, ultimate read on Bulbazak right now? On Feirei?

For Nacho:

1. What are your opinions of DV's interaction with SD and kanye?
2. Do you, yourself, have meta proof of town DV slacking off?
3. Why is Bulbazak better than DV for a lynch today? I've asked you why I should be going on the Bulbazak wagon and didn't get an answer yet.

DeasVail is still high on my lynch list after reading this, as a final result, but I want to hear mostly from Nacho about how he feels and DV's answers to the above.

[Matias]

I also looked at you too, Nacho. I'm confused on your stances on both Benmage and Bulbazak this day (Day 4), so I want you to summarize your thoughts on both of them.

Just for the record, I have absolutely 0% interest in lynching Benmage today.

[Matias]

Nacho, why do you think Im scum?

-I don't like your Day 1 pushes. I don't see the whole "good players can't be lynched D1" in any of your other games, so that seemed disingenuous. What seemed weirder is you started out saying "good players can't be lynched D1" and then immediately moved to pushing players to start scumreading more good players and get off the low-hanging fruit.
-I don't like your push on Tierce because your town pushes seem to be more fluid as town than they are as scum. The push on Tierce in particular was mostly on the claim and not on anything else, which was weird. I didn't like how you chainsawed Fate a bit and then tried to call in his support for the Magua later; the sense I got from your exchanges was that you both were trying to manipulate each other.
-#1456. I'm sure you'd stick your head out for a strong buddy like kkb, and you did.
-The way you handled the Oversoul-Magua situation was scummy as hell. Your push on him being scum/a liar was pretty half-hearted and didn't have you believing him as SK for a moment, yet you still voted him when Oversoul counterclaimed.
-There was that strange push on me for not claiming all my information immediately; it fell in some awkward middle point where you again didn't seem convinced I was scum but thought you might be able to get me to fuck up/leverage a push there.
-I don't like your flip on Bulbazak from yesterday to today.

This is all I have. I would like more, mainly on Bulb.

[Matias]

Thank you for posting. I'm getting ready for work, I will read it while I'm there.

[Matias]

Well that's convinced me.

VOTE: Benmage

Of a Benmage vote?

[Matias]

Just finished reading the current back and forth between Nacho and Bulb.

1. What are your opinions of DV's interaction with SD and kanye?

I think they make sense, feel very natural, and are all town as fuck.

2. Do you, yourself, have meta proof of town DV slacking off?

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... rt_order=d
DeasVail #1 Poster

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... rt_order=d
Middle of the Road

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... rt_order=d
Top Poster

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... rt_order=d
#2 poster

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... rt_order=d
AKA the "Inactive scumgame"
#7 poster

DeasVail doesn't slack off as scum.

Vote: Bulbazak

[Matias]

Well that's convinced me.

VOTE: Benmage

Of a Benmage vote?

Yes.

It is the best wagon.

Yes.

How did this convince you of a

Benmage

vote though?

[Matias]

Ugh. Matias might be actually right about us both being toen.

Unvote

What's the case on DV and why should I join it?

(Paying more attention to the Cardinals game than this)

Vote: Bulbazak

Fuck it. The more I read his posts, the more I can't stand this scumfuck.

I can't even handle all this walling and am not reading them at present. Maybe...Thursday?

Feirei seems pretty fucking blatant about just going for wagons though. As soon as momentum came back to Bulba he went back, when before he was asking to be convinced on DV. He doesn't mention anything about "now Bulba is viable" or "Nacho sure convinced me", it's "the more I read Bulb's posts, the more I can't stand them." Actually I want Feirei more than Benmage right now

Vote: Feirei

Other comments: I don't give much stock to Benmage meta because he makes reference to his own meta

constantly

. I'm actually getting increasingly uncomfortable with Reck.

The walls between Bulb and Nacho are not bad and actually showcase Bulb scum. It isn't like the big, noisy, convoluted mess of Feirei vs. Bulb. Take the time for them.

[Matias]

@Deas

, can you bullet why I am scum.

-Absence of townieness

Nacho, I'm more ok with scumreading Bulb then, but I'm still cautious.

Matias:

If I have many pages to catch up on, usually I'll comment on anything that I feel I should, or ask questions where I think to. I also update my reads as I go, especially early-game, but I don't say all of this.

The kanye and Amrun votes were at points at the game where I didn't have a scumread to be excited about, so I just voted for people who I had slight scumreads on or thought could be scum.

I felt quite conflicted about my Johhog read, but I think I was leaning toward a weak townread toward the end there (hence my apathetic vote for Elmo and later enthusiasm for Bulbazak-scum)

I don't like to be too transparent with my reads or reasoning throughout the game, hence why I make the spastic posts and provide reads lists only occasionally (I think this may also be a timezone related thing, as I'm usually online when other people aren't so I'm not as often actively discussing something with someone). I'm interested in this just for mafia in general though, as I don't think I've received this kind of complaint before and would be keen to improve. Do you think a more transparent approach would be better?

Um... look at 2056. Worst post of the ISO seems.. odd? I didn't have a null read on Johhog. My read on him was much more complex than null, and I didn't even vote for him. Johhog's play was polarizing. There were town cases for him and scum cases for him. I stand by the fact that calling him null was scummy.

2325 was made the next day.

I think your focus on the mish-mashyness aspect of my posts is strange (alignment-wise) because I don't see how that would be alignment-relevant, and it's also weird that you'd attack lack of structure rather than lack of content.

1. This game was a unique situation. I've never been in a position where it would possibly be beneficial for me to be replaced before (other than an extended V/LA).
2. Combination of posting style, and the times that I'm able to post. RL is only particularly busy now.
3. Bulbazak- Leaning scum because of PoE and other things, but I'm hesitant because I think there are things that are town about him. I think Feirei is town.

How has your reading of me been influenced by Mini 1445 (if at all)?

Why do you think Benmage is town?

Bulbazak, what does flipping N2 have to do with information gained from the flip?

I think Bulb is at L-1. I also think that I want to vote Bulbazak.

Just a few things about this:

If this is all true, then more transparency with your reads would be better. There was no choice in my thinking that you thought he was null, then calling someone out as null. There was also no choice in noting that your change in posting style was somewhat relevant, since you didn't do a lot of it first then started doing it a lot in the past day or so.

I had to look up Mini 1445; not sure why you brought this game up? Are you referencing your activity in that game? Because you were a Cop in that game.

Lastly, Benmage has been town to me by making pure constant logical fallacies early in the game, being belligerent, combative with a few people (no offense to him, but that's what it is). To the credit of the people voting him, he's quieted down a bit and has chosen his battles a little more carefully. Nacho brought up some points that I'm going to glance at, but I'm still not feeling comfortable with putting a vote on him over a few people.

[Matias]

Unvote

Just stating that if it's Feirei vs. Benmage, I'm voting Feirei. I'd rather not either, though.

I'm also NOT for mass claiming so close to night. If a mass claim happens, it needs to be an early day thing.

[Matias]

Vote: DeasVail

[Matias]

singer+massclaim!
who did you want to claim next?

As a side note, I approve of a mass claim provided we do it at the start of today and not the end so we have time to talk about it.

[Matias]

Vote: DeasVail

What changed your mind?

Let me know when I should claim too.

Realizing that your meta isn't enough.

[Matias]

VT.

Tierce, you're up.

[Matias]

I'm saying that you've done a lot of scummy shit all game and that the fact that you haven't had a high activity level this game (and how that subsequently is in your "town meta") isn't enough to convince me that you're town.

[Matias]

Nacho, have you read my ISO on him?

[Matias]

Nacho, have you read my ISO on him?

I don't remember it at the moment.

Look it up. My suspicion of DV is nothing new.

[Matias]

On my phone. Answering that tonight.

[Matias]

Time to actually read stuff:

Tierce, I disagree that it's stupid to read someone as scum for not being as town as everyone else, when you have townreads on the majority.

I brought up Mini 1445 because a lot of your suspicion of me has been based on what would be expected of me as a town player, so I am actually quite surprised that you had not considered your previous experience with me until I brought it up.

As for current thoughts, I'm looking forward to the end of massclaim, but I'm considering Tierce, Benmage and Matias for scum out of the non-PR claims (I still have to work out exactly what I think of Bulb and Singer). Tierce in particular though, because this is exactly what she's done as scum before (in the games I've played with her at least).

I'm actually quite surprised that you never considered that I totally forgot about 1445. I replaced out due to lack of interest and subsequently totally forgot about that game, I did it on Day 1.

By the way, is your only suspicion against Tierce based on meta?

Nacho

: Reply to you in a bit, I came home and crashed immediately and I have another long day coming up. Expect it in the next post.

[Matias]

Mod: Going somewhere for halloween. V/LA requested until tomorrow night.

[Matias]

Why Benmage over Bulbazak?

I just looked over your posts today and you've outlined a great case for Bulbazak, but then you fucking settle for Benmage?

Absence of towniness, yeah?

[Matias]

Singer, although Bulb does appear a bit scummy to me at times, there are also things that I think could be town about him. However, Benmage doesn't strike me as very town at all and so is the person I'd feel least guilty about lynching.

This really can't still apply after all that you've posted about bulb, and all the not-something you've posted about Benmage...?

[Matias]

Settling for benmage is the best kind of settling.

CES, I have a project for you. Point out the best case in this game for Benmage-scum.

We've had very limited interaction, it's the least you could do.



For the record, I've read up on most of the current happenings:

-I think one VT is definitely scum.
-I think that one power role is scum.
-I haven't a fucking clue who my third suspect is.

I'm analyzing people in chunks. And I owe Nacho a post after DV answers me.

[Matias]

Why Benmage over Bulbazak?

I just looked over your posts today and you've outlined a great case for Bulbazak, but then you fucking settle for Benmage?

Absence of towniness, yeah?

Part of is being influenced by Nacho, who I know feels similar to me, but I trust to have a better idea of what the setup means for people's alignments. The other is that absence of townieness is really not that bad a scumtell at all, and Bulbazak does still have things about him that make me unsure. If it makes you any happier I was conflicted as to which one of them to vote, but

Unvote

Nacho, this post from Matias is giving me really bad feelings, so please tell me if I'm being overly paranoid.

Matias, you seem to alternate between calling my posts good and bad whenever it suits you. You sheep my reason for voting SD, and then later use it to suspect me. There is nothing in my posts today that should be considered a 'great case for Bulbazak' and yet you're saying it to support your argument. Sure, there's the possibility that I think my points (if someone could somehow make the case that there are any there) are much worse than you think they are, but the fact that you've been very critical of any post of mine that doesn't have well-structured, fully explained reasoning when my comments on Bulbazak today have been anything but, makes me question your sincerity.

There's also the fact that you haven't asked Nacho this question, which is rather odd.

I'm on my phone, so fuck format

Why are you so eager to unvote, yet you're cool with saying you don't like the post that convinced you?

Second, reads change. Back when SD was alive, sure, I agreed with you, but that doesn't absolve you from me disliking you now. I feel like it is a bus at this point and I have information now that I previously didn't.

My simple point is that you've talked a shitload about Bulb and about how he's scum, but just fall on Benmage without another word. I didnt like that, I don't like this.

Lastly, why would I ask Nacho the same question? He's double confirmed and he actually explained his dislike of Benmage, which you seem to not like to do as much as you like to explain your dislike of Bulb.

[Matias]

...then why did you unvote?

[Matias]

(sorry if this is repetative)

But can

hito/ces/tierce/matias

give their read on DV please.

Scum.

[Matias]

laptop stolen, access limited

O_O

Shit, man, take your time. Hope you get everything taken care of.

[Matias]

For once, I believe Benmage might actually have the final scum pegged. I'm willing to go ahead with this, though we have a few more days left for today.

As far as singer's questioning of the govern, in my opinion, that isn't something we should feed into.

[Matias]

Don't publicly state who you're tracking.

You can decide. You're a big girl.

[Matias]

DH, remember that time I was scum, and I tunneled you endlessly... I always felt bad about that. *ps little under the influence.

Which game was this?

[Matias]

Dodging. I'm out right now. More soon

[Matias]

Vote: DeasVail

I've had a fucked up week, so I haven't been doing any other processing of this game than what's been done. I'm open to any questions right now.

[Matias]

What?

What "manipulated" you? I'm confused.

[Matias]

Vote: singersigner

Extremely positive one of singer/Bulb is scum. I took some time to think about that weird track claim and I'm comfortable with this.

[Matias]

Unvote

Why Tierce over Bulb/singer?

[Matias]

Vote: Bulb

[Matias]

Sorry guys...you all played well.

[Matias]

Well...

[Matias]

I know, Tierce.

We're all fucking shaking from that.

[Matias]

I'm just going to...not get in the middle of anything

I expect some sour grapes about to be tasted in the next few hours

[Matias]

Yeah bulb, I don't understand the point of your role :\

At the start of this game, all of the claims seemed way too powerful for town, but in retrospect, they all really don't do much on their own.

Also, I'm about 95% positive Reck would have had a track guilty on me had we not decided to kill him (we killed him because he had a lot of influence and he was a loose cannon, not because we suspected he was a PR)...so...

[Matias]

5 scum in 20 is not outrageous, and SK is an inherently anti-scum role.

[Matias]

Scum's point of view:

I know the whole scummies role thing was distributed without regards to alignment, but there were a lot of hurdles to jump through.

-Cop with a lyncher power on one of the scum members
-Both scum-related scummies were given to scum
-An SK (but I feel for Fate, there was no chance for him to win :\) that was unkillable and Most Enjoyable
-Whatever BBMolla was
-Reck's tracking (and scummeet which created some really crazy PoE theories)
-hito's rolecheck
-The complete unbelievability of CES being scum because of the replacement role, and once Fate flipped SK (and hito said he checked for a traitor), he was auto-confirmed town
-Nacho's govern
-Magua confirming OS (and himself)

Among other things. All we had was the ability to stop one thing and look for the SK (and vig, but he was confirmed to us super early)

[Matias]

Can I mention again how hilarious (and skillful!) Magua's flavor trick was?

This was the best play of the entire game.

[Matias]

I hated this game. The player list was mostly toxic (myself included), the balance weird as fuck, the accountability horrible. I am glad this is my last game on this site. I do not see this site developing well as a community in the future if this game and this player list is a barometer. I don't see myself as a member of this community anymore. Too many unwilling personalities set in their ways, refusing to change. I guess I am the same way but I'm removing myself from it completely. Hopefully for the better. I really hope people critically analyze their actions and the results of these actions.

I do not see where any of this is coming from, or how any of this is needed. You knew what you expected coming into it. But I wish you the best.

[Matias]

Matias really rocked this game.

oh u

[Matias]

Fate had no chance in winning this game. I guess that's my only gripe with the setup.

[Matias]

By the way, zor, do you have a list of night actions?

If not, Reck, did you track me the night you died? I felt I had burning eyes on me after that day.