Event Card Mafia (Game Over)

[Iecerint]

VOTE: ActionDan

I voted for action dan.

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I'll post here as soon as I can.

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OK, finally reading things like an ADULT.

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Unvote; Vote: Juls

I am on page 5 so far.

Juls is not the townie paragon of yesteryear, and her posts are snuggly with TIP despite his thing at talah not being likely to get traction, and talah is kind of obvtown to the extent that anyone is at this point.

On to page 6.

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talah I really hope you stop voting Aronis though because the wagon is terrible.

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Mafiascum needs a like button for posts

+Like on Reckoner's #132

Well this is kinda townie though or at least something that I don't want to lynch due to affections.

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Talah townread rapidly evaporates on page 8.

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What I'm saying is that a town position (i.e., not knowing alignments) inclines people to think about things in a certain way that scum are less inclined to think.

TIP's posts obviously came from scum-TIP because he quoted them in juxtaposition with the vote on Talah. It was almost 1am when I read TIP's post, and I got that immediately; I'd expect townies to get that fairly easily.

You didn't.

There's a gap, which implies that your knowledge of their alignments this game confused you about TIP's thought process.

Tbh I just attributed it to TIP being kinda crabby at times.

ilu TIP <3

[Iecerint]

Why did you sign up for this game Brian?

It shits me to tears that lurking is acceptable site-meta and is read as town by a swathe of players.

yay talah town again

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Yo dogs this guy I'm voting
I think he's been floatin'
These walls I see you try harding
And all you get is foaming
And all I get is groaning

VOTE: ActionDan

lolwat bad votes

[Iecerint]

are you still voting aronis purely because it's the largest wagon? do you have no thoughts on anything that's happening?

Yes and yes. Am I going to share them at this time? No.

VOTE: Oversoul

Go to hell.

aronis is very sassy but very town

i wish he wouldn't vote funny D:

not that oversoul seems overly town but

[Iecerint]

Woo I just townread Oversoul.

venmar and oversoul can be town

[Iecerint]

Searching for replacements farside and Tony

Make Pidgeon play

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UNVOTE: (Tony PF) in favor of giving PeregrineV a chance, haha.

Why would you do this. It's still the same slot.



UNVOTE: Aronis
VOTE: KingdomAces

As the Aronis wagon has also, unfortunately, ground to a halt.

Nope, aces is town.

[Iecerint]

What I'm saying is that a town position (i.e., not knowing alignments) inclines people to think about things in a certain way that scum are less inclined to think.

TIP's posts obviously came from scum-TIP because he quoted them in juxtaposition with the vote on Talah. It was almost 1am when I read TIP's post, and I got that immediately; I'd expect townies to get that fairly easily.

You didn't.

There's a gap, which implies that your knowledge of their alignments this game confused you about TIP's thought process.

Tbh I just attributed it to TIP being kinda crabby at times.

ilu TIP <3

He was talking about KingdomAces. The TIP part was an aside to do with what was happening.

IIRC he was talking TO KingdomAces ABOUT TIP. His argument was that TIP would be obvscum to a neutral observer, so someone who didn't think that [i.e., KA] must know that TIP was town.

My impression of TIP was just that he was crabby, though, so I was skeptical of the premise that a scum-TIP presumption would be for everyone.

[Iecerint]

Searching for replacements farside and Tony

Make Pidgeon play

^ This was intended to be a PM.

Anyway

Unvote; Vote: AGar

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TIP had just used his own scum-meta as a reason to say that I was scum for doing the same thing.
The discussion you've quoted was about KingdomAces missing the fact that TIP was quoting himself as scum rather than town.

The argument BRO was putting down was that town would have picked up on the fact that TIP was quoting himself as scum to reinforce his argument, and KingdomAces didn't pick up on it.

Hmm, could be; the syntax is ambiguous. You're probably right.

I didn't read it that way because it's a much shakier reason to think that KingdomAces would be scum IMO, so I filled in the ambiguity with a perspective that made more sense to me.

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It's mostly my posts, so there's probably not much to it.

Talah got grouchy because I read something BRO's post funky.

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Talah is town though so maybe not?

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Her interest in stuff happening in the game seems too earnest to come from scum IMO, despite the content itself.

Newb scum would tend to be lurkier and OK with crap-posting I think. It would be different if Talah only echoed other people's ideas about stuff, but I think some of the complaints are original.

[Similarly, I think Venmar is town for reading Oversoul's awful long post and having an unnecessary original perspective on it, despite previous anti-Oversoul perspectives.]

She also antagonizes people she has no need to antagonize. Don't see the scum motivation.

The weird set of posts on page 8 where she was all defensive was iffy but that's all.

My perspective for you. <3

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@ TIP, namely, she was the first person to get publicly annoyed with Brian in the context of a game with lots of lurkers right after one of his more flagrant posts. She's antagonized me for no reason, too. Her patterns of activity in both cases have been based around being annoyed with others' level of involvement with the game. This is not a boat that scum typically rocks because low involvement overall is ftw for scum.

The only non-original thing I see in her iso is farside->Oversoul, but she doesn't really harp on that like I'd expect scum to. She's instead all tunneled on the player attacking her.

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Talah's was a little different thing because it was directed at specific people.

I know you're not talking about Talah, but the reason why I interpreted her instance of it differently just occurred to me.

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Brian, how are you sick of seeing me get mislynched when the only "game" we've played together was No Effort?

Scummy question.

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I love you.

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I keep getting townreads on the people that people think are obvscum. :[

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I keep getting townreads on the people that people think are obvscum. :[

Then look on the wagons and try to find scum.

I only do that as scum.

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It actually occurred to me that it could be read as scummy after I posted it, so I don't blame you. ^^

But my point is that I really don't find that kind of relational scumhunting helpful at all as town. It's only useful for giving a narrative to things to convince others (including yourself), and I find that much more useful as scum. As town, I think confirmation bias keeps it from really being useful at all.

Sometimes you can rule out a handful of possibilities with it, but it's really poor effort per payoff.

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I will let it play out first.

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I like the PZ vote.

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oversoul: have you gotten any scum reads since your vote?

Iecerint: why are you voting agar? I read your views and the most I got was who you thought was town.

IIRC it was kinda that AGar's suspicions seemed to lack conviction. For example, he would say something like "omg TIP so scummy dat scumbutt" or whatever, but not act like he actually cared very much that scumbutts were being so flagrant, etc.

Some of his posts after my vote are kind of different from that. Views are evolving.

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Talah's 451 is scummy. It looks like she saw PZ pressure and tried to come up with a case on him after the fact.

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I am actually fine with the actual content in the post as far as reads go. What I find scummy is the way you are presenting it, which looks like your perspective informed your evidence rather than evidence actually causing your perspective. I think that is more likely to happen when scum choose a target.

I don't particularly think TIP is town. I don't really want to lynch him, though.

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@ Brian - talah, Oversoul, Venmar, namely. But I vacillate on talah, and I only think Oversoul is town because of the townVenmar post that made me reread the Oversoul post

I find that if lots of people have very different perspectives than me I am usually wrong.

@MD, which backpedal are you referring to and why do you think it is scummy? I don't see an obvious "right after" backpedal in my iso, and I've revised my views on several players.

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townVenmar

remind me why you think venmar is town. afaict it's because he called oversoul town at some point and that's it?

Yep that was pretty much it.

Basically, there was an Oversoul post that I didn't pay much attention to because lots of Oversoul posts had been wordy and not super compelling, and then Venmar posted someone like yay Oversoul is town yippie or something, and then I read the Oversoul post in depth and got the same impression (not super strong, but I could see why someone reading critically could come to that conclusion). So it was that series of events that made me think he was town.

Someone (you?) said he was scum because they didn't have a sense of his reads really. I've only played with him a few times, and mostly on a different avatar, so I'm not associating him with those games very cleanly in my head, so if there are meta things that outweigh that, that's fine.

[Iecerint]

'

Basically, there was an Oversoul post that I didn't pay much attention to because lots of Oversoul posts had been wordy and not super compelling, and then Venmar posted someone like yay Oversoul is town yippie or something, and then I read the Oversoul post in depth and got the same impression (not super strong, but I could see why someone reading critically could come to that conclusion). So it was that series of events that made me think he was town

i don't _really_ understand how this led to a town read. :/

i mean, i get that you were skipping oversoul's posts and it made you go back and reread it and you thought it was a town post and so did venmar, but... this is where i'm missing something, i think? don't see how that led you to town-venmar

so if there are meta things that outweigh that, that's fine.

i dunno, you can call it a meta read, i guess, but i mean... he's given a town read on oversoul and like a town read on aronis so far and those are his total contributions to the game (unless i'm missing something?). if i had no knowledge of venmar, i'd probably still think there was something off

I find it town when people find reasons to take suspicious people off the suspicion table for valid reasons, especially if they are players who have styles that are likely to lead to suspicion or the valid reasons took effort to put together. Double points when the person's style is "just suspicious enough" rather than totally outrageous (e.g., Oversoul vs. someone like Mollie).

I think Venmar was maybe in something like Starcraft mafia with me once, but I think he died early or something. I don't remember it very well. That's my only experience with him outside of GD.

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Juls, we played together in Dynasty Warriors, where I was scum and I think we killed you N1 for being terrifying.

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Also @Juls, the newb reference in that talah bit is because someone else (Muffin?) had characterized her posting as newb scum a few posts earlier, and I was articulating why I didn't think she was newb scum.

My reads in this game are really different from everyone else's in this game. This usually means that I am wrong, so I'm just going to kind of acknowledge that possibility and feel OK about it.

@Muffin, yep, it may be reading too much into it, but it's probably enough that I don't think I would want to lynch Venmar today. I think scum do what Venmar did in a different way (i.e., calling someone town is less clearly linked to specific evidence) and with different timing (e.g., after the wagon is inevitable, rather than while it is percolating) typically.

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I am probably inclined to lynch tip at this point on the grounds that I think talah is town.

I reread Venmar and he is pretty scummy apart from the post about the Oversoul townread that I always liked.

meh.

[Iecerint]

I'll vote for KK or Venmar if Muffin tells me to.

Unvote; Vote: Venmar

Cuz I think he's voting Venmar right now.

[Iecerint]

I'll vote for KK or Venmar if Muffin tells me to.

Unvote; Vote: Venmar

Cuz I think he's voting Venmar right now.

weren't you like calling me town pretty hard not too long ago?

Yeah, I actually think you're town tbf, but I have very little self-respect.

[Iecerint]

Like basically no one agrees with me in this game, which probably means I am wrong.

Muffin was pretty sure that you were town in Xenosaga (ended recently, we were all town, I thought you could be scum), and he was all into the idea that you have to KNOW THE HEART OF VENMAR.

And I mean I dont' know it so I figure I am OK with Muffin's cardiological knowledge.

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I'll think you're town even if Venmar is town, so please do not be concerned about the wool falling from my eyes. <3

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Also earlier I looked at this thread and verbally said "whoa death note is in this game" and then I read his post and it was

Crap I got prodded again.

True story; I have a witness.

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Like basically no one agrees with me in this game, which probably means I am wrong.

This is like the third time you've said this so far. It sounds like you are setting up for switching votes whenever you want because "you are wrong because no one agrees with you." What's up with that?

Yep, that's basically accurate. I'm putting vote-switching into the appropriate context.

In large games I typically assume that players don't read all the posts, so I repeat myself sometimes.

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mnenomic is currently my favored altflashwagon fyi.

His preference for qwints also makes me feel relatively good about Venmar.

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Good about lynching him, I mean.

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Unvote; Vote: Papa Zito

Preferring him to qwints is mainly relational.

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Unvote; Vote: qwints

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I agree with Juls.

Fuck.

No indication of what might be up here? Are you claiming that your blue text was a total shock to you after reading the previous speculation about what might cause it?

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I guess 0 minute lag means it wasn't edited in.

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Talah. How have been

Not bad young man. How bout you?

:/

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I agree with Juls.

Fuck.

No indication of what might be up here? Are you claiming that your blue text was a total shock to you after reading the previous speculation about what might cause it?

I guess 0 minute lag means it wasn't edited in.

Talah. How have been

Not bad young man. How bout you?

:/

Lol is this scum iec trying to seem relevant to a conversation and then retreating with his tail between his legs?
HMMMMMMMMM

No, it is iec reading your time stamps after farside's

Talah has nothing to do with you, so not sure what relevance you see to my misunderstanding that you were making jokes about a mechanic that had just been introduced.

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(Time-stamps being relevant because the mod would have had to have edited the font color, and there was no time for him to edit it blue, then have Oversoul noticed it, and then post about it.

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...

...

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So anyway I visited Venmar last night.

Is Venmar in a position to confirm or deny that you did this?

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(For example, due to your targeting informing him of a function being performed on him.)

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Nah, thanks, think I'll give it some time before I bother with a disclosure. Just puttin' it out there.

(For example, due to your targeting informing him of a function being performed on him.)

I getcha. No worries.

I am not requesting a full disclosure.

I suppose Venmar is capable of responding on his own, though.

[Iecerint]

Hmm.

I used an ability on talah last night and similarly received a "null" result. The ability could not have disrupted her track.

The result contradicts talah's claim if valid (e.g., if my null result is not the result of a roleblock or bus-drive or global roleblock or whatever).

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I am an idiot. You being roleblocked could indeed account for it, and is probably what happened because you claimed "confirmable at night" or something yesterday.

Venmar is 1 room away from you, so you could only be blocked by someone at most 1 room away from you if I understand how the mechanics work. I think your logic that it is more likely to be someone in your room makes more sense, provided that the person in your room was capable of blocking you.

Room 5
xReckonerX
Prof Fridays
farside22
Kublai Khan

Room 4 <--- most likely because a block from outside would fail if she targeted a roommate, and talah would rationally target a roommate for that reason
BROseidon
Bulbazak
talah
Agar

Room 3
Venmar
Oversoul
GuyInFreezer
Papa Zito

I should mention that I clarified with the Mod D1 that geography could not cause my action to fail, so it's not the case that my lack of proximity to talah accounts for a null result.

[Iecerint]

why did you target talah, iece? iirc you thought talah was town at the end of D1 and you're hinting at some sort of investigative role, which doesn't make a lot of sense

I did have a specific reason, but I think it would make my specific night action too specific if I clarified this. I can just outright claim this if people want; I only didn't claim it because I figured it wouldn't help much to claim it and would give scum information not relevant to the talah->venmar thing, but this doesn't apply if it's making people theorize in funky ways.

The other reason (that

isn't

that one) is that Talah was someone a lot of players suspected yesterday, so I thought that a potential clear or incrimination could be valuable.

Also, while several of talah's posts seemed very town, other ones seemed scummy. So I put more emphasis on trying to get a better understanding of someone where lots of people had published reads.

I thought about it and the odds of a rb targeting you is slim however venmar did claim as I did, can't say if he was targeted by a possible rb.....I don't know and I hate wifom.

She did claim something like "confirmable at night," though. That could be enough to pull a roleblock if someone was in roleblock range of her, I think, and maybe even from elsewhere if they didn't have any leads.

the only way all 3 of {venmar, talah, iece} are town is if talah was RBed

Agreed. Well, other than phantom busdrivers or whatever. Though geography could really make multi-target abilities like that unusual, so I'd hazard to guess that they're less likely to be in this game.

I guess I was thinking of Iec's role as something like a tracker too but you are right, it could be anything. So I think we need some further clarification from iec to sort all this out.

A roleblock on talah would indeed account for everything.

[Iecerint]

I did have a specific reason, but I think it would make my specific night action too specific if I clarified this. I can just outright claim this if people want; I only didn't claim it because I figured it wouldn't help much to claim it and would give scum information not relevant to the talah->venmar thing, but this doesn't apply if it's making people theorize in funky ways.

So really, given that you can add no new information to the Talah/venmar thing, would you claim anything at all? That's the part that puzzles me.

I probably shouldn't have, but I assumed that talah was going to claim something noteworthy on Venmar when she originally crumbed the vague result on him, so I kind of had my plan in mind ahead of time and didn't modify it as I should have when she completed the claim.

Though I guess my claim did still clarify that talah being roleblocked was more likely than it would otherwise have been.

OK, I don;t get the rooms thing. If someone in room 70 roleblcosk talah in room 1, Talah is roleblocked.

How would the room her roleblocker be in be relevant?

No, your understanding is incorrect (or mine is).

The Geography function is that a "distance" modifier determines ability resolution prior to natural ability resolution. This means that if talah's target is of smaller distance from her than her roleblocker, that roleblocker cannot roleblock her. Similarly, if a kill target is closer than the doctor, the doctor cannot protect that person.

Talah's logic is that given this, scum would probably only roleblock people who are in the same room as them, since a roleblock at distance > 0 is useless provided that the target targets someone at distance = 0. This is maybe extra true for talah who would want to confirm herself N1 as per her D1 claim (or someone would infer that), so the chance of her using a distance = 0 target is even higher.

In reality, Talah targeted someone at distance = 1 instead of distance = 0, which is why the technical roleblocker pool could be anyone in her room or 1 room away. But it still means that distance = 0 roleblocker is most probable.

All of this goes out the window if this understanding of Geography is incorrect.

[Iecerint]

Also, that's going to beg the question a little, so I'm going to clarify a step further.

I could track on N1, and I tracked talah on N1. I clarified with the Mod about how Geography affects tracking on N1, and he confirmed that my track will return a result regardless of whether the track resolves before or after the potential actions that can be tracked. So geography could NOT account for a negative track from either talah or me.

(By all accounts my negative track result is very similar to talah's.)

I asked because I thought that if talah was scum, confirmation shenanigans as per her D1 claim would probably happen today, so I could catch her if I targeted her and she was guaranteed to have an action that could be tracked.

[Iecerint]

I agree with Juls.

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Also, Venmar and Oversoul were in the same room. Talah would receive no result from tracking Venmar anyways. Then Iece was as far away as you can possibly get from Talah, and Talah only went 1 room over to track Venmar, so Iece wouldn't receive a result either if he is any type of follower-style role.

There. Problem solved. Enough talk about fucking roleblockers for no absolute reason.

Reread my posts. I specifically clarified this point with the Mod D1.

Tracking will return results regardless of whether the track resolves prior or after the actions of the target. Geography does not affect it.

I don't really understand why you would highlight that you have a crumb and then not provide it? Seems silly.

[Iecerint]

Wait, nevermind. Zoro just sent me a clarification PM. <_<_<

You do have to track someone prior to their action for the track to be successful. Zoro misunderstood what I was asking -- he thought I was asking only if tracking prior to the action would work, and he clarified that it would. But I intended my question to more generally ask about whether tracking at a different time than the action would cause problems (i.e., either tracking prior to someone submitting an action, such that there is no apparent action as it hasn't happened yet; or tracking after an action, such that it is already done).

I would obviously not have targeted talah last night if this had been more clear. <_<

So basically both tracks are 100% worthless, because they both occurred after the claimed action.

So pretend none of this ever happened. <_<

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I am absolutely not lying about this set of PM exchanges with Zora.

The explanation post for Geography talks about killers, not trackers, unless he added that later on after the fact. Assuming you're quoting from somewhere after the fact, that should serve as pretty clear evidence that it corroborates my story.

[Iecerint]

This is the geography explanation post:

Day 1 Event

Event:

Geography

Description:

Night actions determined by geography. Players are placed randomly in a geographic shape. Night actions are resolved based on how close players are together. For example, a killer who targets a player in the same room will not be stopped by a Doctor who is 2 rooms away. Night actions of the same number of rooms are decided using the normal night resolution order.

Room Shape

Spoiler: Generation of Players to Room

First dice roll:
Lowest 5 go into Room 1
next lowest 4 go into Room 2
next lowest 4 go into Room 3, etc.

second dice roll is ONLY to break ties.
ActionDan

Original Roll String: 1d100 (STATIC)

1 100-Sided Dice: (8) = 8

Original Roll String: 1d50 (STATIC)

1 50-Sided Dice: (12) = 12

Agar

Original Roll String: 1d100 (STATIC)

1 100-Sided Dice: (58) = 58

Original Roll String: 1d50 (STATIC)

1 50-Sided Dice: (1) = 1

Aronis

Original Roll String: 1d100 (STATIC)

1 100-Sided Dice: (6) = 6

Original Roll String: 1d50 (STATIC)

1 50-Sided Dice: (18) = 18

Brian Skies

Original Roll String: 1d100 (STATIC)

1 100-Sided Dice: (99) = 99

Original Roll String: 1d50 (STATIC)

1 50-Sided Dice: (7) = 7

BROseidon

Original Roll String: 1d100 (STATIC)

1 100-Sided Dice: (74) = 74

Original Roll String: 1d50 (STATIC)

1 50-Sided Dice: (22) = 22

Bulbazak

Original Roll String: 1d100 (STATIC)

1 100-Sided Dice: (63) = 63

Original Roll String: 1d50 (STATIC)

1 50-Sided Dice: (45) = 45

DeathNote

Original Roll String: 1d100 (STATIC)

1 100-Sided Dice: (86) = 86

Original Roll String: 1d50 (STATIC)

1 50-Sided Dice: (43) = 43

DeltaWave

Original Roll String: 1d100 (STATIC)

1 100-Sided Dice: (23) = 23

Original Roll String: 1d50 (STATIC)

1 50-Sided Dice: (40) = 40

farside22

Original Roll String: 1d100 (STATIC)

1 100-Sided Dice: (78) = 78

Original Roll String: 1d50 (STATIC)

1 50-Sided Dice: (8) = 8

GuyInFreezer

Original Roll String: 1d100 (STATIC)

1 100-Sided Dice: (42) = 42

Original Roll String: 1d50 (STATIC)

1 50-Sided Dice: (49) = 49

Iecerint

Original Roll String: 1d100 (STATIC)

1 100-Sided Dice: (3) = 3

Original Roll String: 1d50 (STATIC)

1 50-Sided Dice: (25) = 25

Juls

Original Roll String: 1d100 (STATIC)

1 100-Sided Dice: (19) = 19

Original Roll String: 1d50 (STATIC)

1 50-Sided Dice: (30) = 30

KingdomAces

Original Roll String: 1d100 (STATIC)

1 100-Sided Dice: (1) = 1

Original Roll String: 1d50 (STATIC)

1 50-Sided Dice: (17) = 17

Kublai Khan

Original Roll String: 1d100 (STATIC)

1 100-Sided Dice: (74) = 74

Original Roll String: 1d50 (STATIC)

1 50-Sided Dice: (38) = 38

mnemonicdevice

Original Roll String: 1d100 (STATIC)

1 100-Sided Dice: (87) = 87

Original Roll String: 1d50 (STATIC)

1 50-Sided Dice: (13) = 13

Oversoul

Original Roll String: 1d100 (STATIC)

1 100-Sided Dice: (48) = 48

Original Roll String: 1d50 (STATIC)

1 50-Sided Dice: (6) = 6

Papa Zito

Original Roll String: 1d100 (STATIC)

1 100-Sided Dice: (42) = 42

Original Roll String: 1d50 (STATIC)

1 50-Sided Dice: (27) = 27

Prof Fridays

Original Roll String: 1d100 (STATIC)

1 100-Sided Dice: (81) = 81

Original Roll String: 1d50 (STATIC)

1 50-Sided Dice: (23) = 23

qwints

Original Roll String: 1d100 (STATIC)

1 100-Sided Dice: (42) = 42

Original Roll String: 1d50 (STATIC)

1 50-Sided Dice: (5) = 5

talah

Original Roll String: 1d100 (STATIC)

1 100-Sided Dice: (63) = 63

Original Roll String: 1d50 (STATIC)

1 50-Sided Dice: (12) = 12

TheIrishPope

Original Roll String: 1d100 (STATIC)

1 100-Sided Dice: (98) = 98

Original Roll String: 1d50 (STATIC)

1 50-Sided Dice: (18) = 18

Tony P

Original Roll String: 1d100 (STATIC)

1 100-Sided Dice: (27) = 27

Original Roll String: 1d50 (STATIC)

1 50-Sided Dice: (36) = 36

Venmar

Original Roll String: 1d100 (STATIC)

1 100-Sided Dice: (53) = 53

Original Roll String: 1d50 (STATIC)

1 50-Sided Dice: (11) = 11

xReckonerX

Original Roll String: 1d100 (STATIC)

1 100-Sided Dice: (84) = 84

Original Roll String: 1d50 (STATIC)

1 50-Sided Dice: (2) = 2

zMuffinMan

Original Roll String: 1d100 (STATIC)

1 100-Sided Dice: (3) = 3

Original Roll String: 1d50 (STATIC)

1 50-Sided Dice: (2) = 2

[Iecerint]

AKA, you're fucking lying.

Venmar to Oversoul = 0
Talah to Venmar = 1
Iecerint to Talah = 3

According to the information we were ALL given, you would not receive a result. Now, you're telling me that Zoraster puts one thing out to the public and then tells you another?

NOT BUYING IT.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Iecerint

Also, WHY ON EARTH would I lie about some kind of rules clarification that is explicitly contradicted by the ruleset as scum? Even if you don't think there's daytalk, night even just happened.

And what is the motivation for my lying about any of this? I hadn't even implicated anyone (except for like "one of these 12 players" which frankly is pretty useless anyway)!

[Iecerint]

Follower type roles will get a result if they follow someone who is taking the same or longer period of time, but will return no result if they follow someone before that. For example, I am a tracker 1 room from Vi. Vi is a vigilante and kills a target in his own room. I will NOT get a result. However, if Vi were targeting someone in my room (1 room away as well), I WILL get a result.

Where did you find this? Ctrl+f "tracker" doesn't return anything in Zora's iso.

[Iecerint]

Nevermind, I found it. It was in a spoilered section.

Yours is from the Rules section; mine is from the Day 1 Refresher-type post.

[Iecerint]

@Talah

The paragraph I quoted was only in reference to follower type roles. No clue about how it works with Kills/Protects/etc, nor am I inclined to try and figure it out seeing as it's not an impact on our game going forward.

AGar, if you look at the Day 1 Refresher post that I quoted, you'll see that it works the same way for at least kills and protects.

[Iecerint]

Only relevance being WIFOM related to whether scum would risk targeting someone farther away.

Which is pretty weak in that the doctor is more nerfed.

[Iecerint]

Based on Zora's explanation to me, If ActionDan tracked me, he would get a positive result. The reason is that his distance to me is low enough, ala what AGar says.

Conceptually, Zora's logic is that you have to arrive prior to the person walking over to do their stuff and then hang out until necessary and follow them. If you track after them, you arrive, but they don't do anything.

I guess AD's action at least explains his post to talah at the start of this day phase.

[Iecerint]

Although I agree somewhat that it seems both tracks automatically failed - what does the time of submitting the track have to do with anything?

By "time" I mean distance. Distance alone would make both of our tracks fail 100% given the claimed targets of those we tracked (yours because Venmar targeted within his room; mine because you are across the world).

A few question to iec.

why did you target talah, iece? iirc you thought talah was town at the end of D1 and you're hinting at some sort of investigative role, which doesn't make a lot of sense

I did have a specific reason, but I think it would make my specific night action too specific if I clarified this. I can just outright claim this if people want; I only didn't claim it because I figured it wouldn't help much to claim it and would give scum information not relevant to the talah->venmar thing, but this doesn't apply if it's making people theorize in funky ways.

The other reason (that

isn't

that one) is that Talah was someone a lot of players suspected yesterday, so I thought that a potential clear or incrimination could be valuable.

Also, while several of talah's posts seemed very town, other ones seemed scummy. So I put more emphasis on trying to get a better understanding of someone where lots of people had published reads.

I thought about it and the odds of a rb targeting you is slim however venmar did claim as I did, can't say if he was targeted by a possible rb.....I don't know and I hate wifom.

She did claim something like "confirmable at night," though. That could be enough to pull a roleblock if someone was in roleblock range of her, I think, and maybe even from elsewhere if they didn't have any leads.

the only way all 3 of {venmar, talah, iece} are town is if talah was RBed

Agreed. Well, other than phantom busdrivers or whatever. Though geography could really make multi-target abilities like that unusual, so I'd hazard to guess that they're less likely to be in this game.

I guess I was thinking of Iec's role as something like a tracker too but you are right, it could be anything. So I think we need some further clarification from iec to sort all this out.

A roleblock on talah would indeed account for everything.

Why did you target talah knowing he claimed something that can be verified?
Also why would you use an ability on a player 3 rooms away?

I think I have already answered both these questions in multiple posts. For why I would target talah, refer to when Muffin asked the very same question. For why target someone far away, refer to the discussion with AGar.

Short versions: "confirmable at night," to me, sounds like a request to be tracked rather than no need to be tracked, plus the existing scrutiny on talah yesterday from others; Zora sent me a PM that implied that trackers were not affected by geography as I understood it (in response to a PM designed to determined if I could track talah meaningfully).

[Iecerint]

The answer to that question is no -_-

Also if confirm no my vote on iec for lying.

Vote: iecerint

Oh lord.

Go read the posts with AGar; it is obvious that I am not lying about the correspondence.

[Iecerint]

Based on Zora's explanation to me, If ActionDan tracked me, he would get a positive result. The reason is that his distance to me is low enough, ala what AGar says.

Conceptually, Zora's logic is that you have to arrive prior to the person walking over to do their stuff and then hang out until necessary and follow them. If you track after them, you arrive, but they don't do anything.

I guess AD's action at least explains his post to talah at the start of this day phase.

FWIW, Zora's conceptual logic is from the clarification PM he sent me where he was like GOD IEC IT JUST MAKES SENSE DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND THAT TRACKERS MOVE THEIR BODIES TO FOLLOW PPL THIS IS RP.

And then I pointed out that you could just as easily infer that tracking is instantaneous and doesn't work prior to the action, etc. I wish I'd seen the alternate geography explanation.

Anyway, more evidence that I did not very cleverly decide to counterclaim tracker in a way that doesn't really undermine the first tracker with easily-verifiable mistaken rules that are contradicted by the spoilered Geography ruleset.

[Iecerint]

Agar: why do you think ad is scum?
He claimed a track on a player in the room and talked about the result.

Because I think scum are seeing an a way to take advantage of the confusion surrounding this mechanic, honestly. What has 95% of Day 2 focused on? The geography mechanic. What have we truly gleaned from all of it? Nothing, really. We know we had a bunch of useless tracks happen last night. Great.

But now AD wants to come in after the dust has settled and we maaaaybe could get back to real scumhunting and go "No, I'm a tracker, too! Iec went to Talah last night." He relies on sheer speculation that there's no possible way that Iece and Talah could both have full tracks last night, because he's a tracker (by the timing of claims, he would be my first lynch because his claim came unprovoked and was the one that crowded the group), and there couldn't possibly be 3 tracks last night! Scum tracker is a fairly common power that I've seen/used in games before. Talah and Iec both hinted at limitations to their tracks, either a single shot or some time based entity. AD is claiming no such restrictions.

Combine that with his pretty much useless Day 1 posting and I'm confident in calling him scum.

Tbh I like AD's claim. His comment to talah at the start of the day doesn't make sense unless his night action involved her in some way. Asking how she is doing because he just saw me target her and he is trying to ascertain what, if anything, I did to her makes a certain amount of sense. When I saw it originally, I was wondering if he also had something fishy on her from the nightgame or something.

Not sure why he targeted me, but I figured it was just due to being in the same room.

However, his logic for me being scum, which basically amounts to "3 tracks: IMPOSSIBURU," is not particularly inspiring.

[Iecerint]

@iec: how does confirmable ability= track me. Second why did you not track a player you were suspicious of near you? Do you believe there are 3 town players with a track ability? If so why and do not fucking point to the set up from Zor.

1. I wanted to track someone who had an ability. Talah had crumbed an ability. Some people use "confirmable" in really pliant ways, talah seemed kind of like she might be the kind of person who might do such a thing, I thought it was a confirmed positive piece of information for N1, lots of people were pushing her and might wagon her so even innocuous information could be helpful -> easy pick.

2. As I have already indicated 1343242342343 times, Zora "told" me that my ability would work even if I targeted someone far away. Or that is how I mistakenly interpreted his PM to me at the time. Please skim my iso and you can find these answers. I even already re-answered this for you just above.

3. Regarding the number of trackers, it looks like 2 right now since talah has unambiguously claimed JoaT all along.

4. Before AD's claim, I thought that his action basically had to involve talah in some way or be really questionable given the crumb to talah, so a result of Iec->talah is sensible. I am weirded out that he thinks this makes me scum given how things have played out.

[Iecerint]

Yeah so I kind of tuned out of this game yesterday and now I think I am slightly behind. Someone summarize why Iec is scum/being voted.

Dan thinks I am scum because 3 tracks N1 is a lot. Farside either isn't reading my posts or thinks I fabricated PM exchanges with the Mod; it's unclear. TIP is just a hanger-on.

[Iecerint]

I am kind of curious as to what kind of action Dan thinks scumIec performed on talah.

[Iecerint]

I think your reason for why you tracked talah is shitty and 3 tracker town is really hard to swallow.

What do you think I did to talah?

[Iecerint]

Cuz you know for sure that I did something to talah unless I am scum with Dan.

[Iecerint]

Or fortuitous phantom busdrivers.

[Iecerint]

It doesn't matter if you can know the specific action; the point is that I targeted her and nothing happened. If you're thinking enough about me being scum to vote for me, I would kind of hope you have thought stuff like that through.

For example, I guess you could imagine that I was a rolecop or something.

Though that wouldn't explain why I'd bother claiming anything the way that I did. And it doesn't account for why I would ask Zora stuff D1.

Basically I am having a hard time understanding anyone thinking that I am anything but obvtown, but at least 2 people seem to think that.

[Iecerint]

It's more like I am trying to decide whether you are town.

[Iecerint]

Well, not quite. Probably most like trying to determine whether AD could be town due to the perspective being rational.

[Iecerint]

I have already addressed all of that, so I will not repeat myself.

Pedit: Oh, I'd missed that Oversoul voted me. Hmm.

[Iecerint]

ZZZX replaces XReckonerX

this fucker

VOTE: Iec

Well, I guess that explains it. <_<

[Iecerint]

Farside, I think if you really wanted to evaluate my alignment, you would do something other than post the same rhetoric over and over disguised as questions that might have interesting answers.

I do not know if you're just a person who does that as both alignments, but that is the main thing I am gleaning from our interaction.

[Iecerint]

My recollection of the previous times I played with you is that you were always permanently obvtown but somehow never died due to protection WIFOM or whatever.

[Iecerint]

But that was ages ago.

[Iecerint]

You motherfucking literary theorist.

[Iecerint]

Farside, I didn't even HAVE any suspects by the end of D1. All I had were townreads -- KingdomAces and talah -- that the entire playerbase thought was scum. As I think I even mentioned during this D1 you're so fixated on, I do not trust myself when literally no one agrees with me. And even those players made posts that I found scummy!

I disagree with your opinion of how tracks should be used and maybe how many players on this site think they should be used. If I had solid reads on like 75% of the playerbase, I would investigate the remaining 25%. But failing that, I think that averting the mislynch bait is the way to go.

"Confirmable town role" is a bullshit phrase these days and is basically synonymous with a PR softclaim i.e. tracker bait.

[Iecerint]

Well, I guess your stated theory of how investigates should be used is also apparently different from most of the playerbase on this site, but the point stands.

[Iecerint]

More importantly -- I should REALLY HOPE that SOMEONE ON THE SCUMTEAM could have worked out that Geography would mess up a track from across the map -- especially when the Tracker example was literally in the Spoilered ruled section! <---- NB

That is not the kind of error a team makes -- it is the kind of error a single player makes.

^ More explication of why I should be really really obvtown to anyone who is doing more than skimming the thread, unless you want to postulate like 4-5 deliberate calculated townslips.

[Iecerint]

Well, probably not "more" because I mentioned it at least once several pages ago, but I figure the chance that anyone other than AGar read it is pretty slim.

Reasons to target talah: tl;dr form for farside

1. Talah claimed an action. Trackers are more useful when they target players who have actions.
2. Lots of players suspected talah. Information is more useful when it is about players who are likely to be scrutinized.
3. Iecerint was ambivalent about talah, despite her being one of the closest things he had to a town read. Getting information about ambivalent reads is super important!

The main hitch was geography, and I misunderstood Zora's clarification.

[Iecerint]

This fucking game.

/drunkpost

[Iecerint]

I'm super cautious about AGar. I think he's town unless it's the case that he thinks AD's vote can snowball. Which normally would be 0% chance but people seem to like it for some reason, so maybe I am just awful at understanding the current site meta. But this is mainly because once he beat me in lylo as scum when I knew he was scum by PoE but I was reading him as town before that IIRC (and I was lynched). Don't remember which game.

And yeah TIP probably had the worst vote, and that's saying something given Oversoul's naked one.

/drunkpost

[Iecerint]

JULS ALERT ALERT ALERT

THERE IS NO ROLEBLOCKER.

GEOGRAPHY IS THE ROLEBLOCKER.

LYNCH ZORA TO REMOVE THE ROLEBLOCKER.

/drunkpost

[Iecerint]

Jesus if JULS isn't even reading the game, what hope do we have? D:

[Iecerint]

VOTE: TheIrishPope

I WILL FOLLOW MY GODDESS UNTIL THE WORLD ENDS OR UNTIL A BIT FROM NOW.

/drunkpost

[Iecerint]

1. Talah claimed an action. Trackers are more useful when they target players who have actions

He never explicitly claimed an action though. and even then it could have been an action that'd self confirm i.e, vig, friendly neighbor, masoniser, etc.

This is wrong on both counts. He claimed to be [/b]confirmable at night[/b].

To say that talah was waving a sign wanting to be tracked is a stretch in the justification.

WTF does that have to do with anything?

there are certainly wtf levels of derp as either faction from targeting talah in the first place but I'm not putting it past the entirety of the scum team to blunder, especially considering tracker resolution isn't obvious.

TRACKER RESOLUTION IN PARTICULAR IS IN THE FUCKING RULES SECTION OF THE GAME.

Also Iec has implied at this point he's a full tracker so lol at Agar.

Goodness me, I can't imagine why a player might want to turn a blind eye to that!

Gosh, I wonder what motive you have in pointing this out!

[Iecerint]

plz to fix votes tags qq

/drunkposts

Also /angryposts for reasons that don't even involve this game!

[Iecerint]

Talah and AGar are probably town if ActionDan is scum yay.

[Iecerint]

You really make stunning contributions to this game Dan!

[Iecerint]

Well, probably not "more" because I mentioned it at least once several pages ago, but I figure the chance that anyone other than AGar read it is pretty slim.

Reasons to target talah: tl;dr form for farside

1. Talah claimed an action. Trackers are more useful when they target players who have actions.
2. Lots of players suspected talah. Information is more useful when it is about players who are likely to be scrutinized.
3. Iecerint was ambivalent about talah, despite her being one of the closest things he had to a town read. Getting information about ambivalent reads is super important!

The main hitch was geography, and I misunderstood Zora's clarification.

Wait if it was a geo-Card why was everyone claiming? Results were not reliable there

tl;dr -- USER ERROR

LONGER;dr

1. Iec misinterpreted a PM from Zora, used his action non-reliably. Talah just used hers kind of non-reliably without being able to blame Zora.
2. Iec tracked Talah. Talah tracked Venmar.
3. Talah tracked Venmar to nowhere. Venmar had claimed Bodyguard. Talah was suspicious! Venmar caught?! Talah claims!
4. Iec had tracked Talah to nowhere. Iec claimed his Talah-nowhere result to solve the puzzle, briefly leading people to think that Talah was roleblocked.
5. Everyone realizes that Geography accounts for both null results, qq, cue embarrassment for Iec/talah.
6. ActionDan claims to have tracked Iecerint to talah, hence Iec is obvscum! Or something! (To be fair, logic is actually that 3 tracks is so many omg!)
7. Farside votes Iec for being a liar! Oversoul and TIP vote Iec for the lulz!

Those are the main events today.

[Iecerint]

Well, probably not "more" because I mentioned it at least once several pages ago, but I figure the chance that anyone other than AGar read it is pretty slim.

Reasons to target talah: tl;dr form for farside

1. Talah claimed an action. Trackers are more useful when they target players who have actions.
2. Lots of players suspected talah. Information is more useful when it is about players who are likely to be scrutinized.
3. Iecerint was ambivalent about talah, despite her being one of the closest things he had to a town read. Getting information about ambivalent reads is super important!

The main hitch was geography, and I misunderstood Zora's clarification.

Wait if it was a geo-Card why was everyone claiming? Results were not reliable there

tl;dr -- USER ERROR

LONGER;dr

1. Iec misinterpreted a PM from Zora, used his action non-reliably. Talah just used hers kind of non-reliably without being able to blame Zora.
2. Iec tracked Talah. Talah tracked Venmar.
3. Talah tracked Venmar to nowhere. Venmar had claimed Bodyguard. Talah was suspicious! Venmar caught?! Talah claims!
4. Iec had tracked Talah to nowhere. Iec claimed his Talah-nowhere result to solve the puzzle, briefly leading people to think that Talah was roleblocked.
5. Everyone realizes that Geography accounts for both null results, qq, cue embarrassment for Iec/talah.
6. ActionDan claims to have tracked Iecerint to talah, hence Iec is obvscum! Or something! (To be fair, logic is actually that 3 tracks is so many omg!)
7. Farside votes Iec for being a liar! Oversoul and TIP vote Iec for the lulz!

Those are the main events today.

wait this is... let me see

Iec tracked Talah

Everyone realizes that Geography accounts for both null results

ActionDan claims to have tracked Iecerint to talah, hence Iec is obvscum!

uh you DID visit talah so obv that is the shittest thing I heard in my life

Vote ActionDan

explain this?

It's trivially possible that I could have done some other kind of scum-aligned non-killing move on talah (like rolecop), and then gambited (for no clear reason that I can discern) that it was in fact a track despite not knowing that I had been tracked and would have to account for it, with the effect of removing the Venmar/talah 1/1!

But it is kind of really a stretch!

[Iecerint]

ActionDan
DeathNote
DeltaWave
mnemonicdevice
Prof Fridays
talah
TheIrishPope

Not in ease of picking order because that's reaaaaally subjective

This is so fake. You put Talah, the person you've been tunneling for most of the game, as low hanging fruit. Seriously?!

Can you please vote him then? Please?

Who si that quote directed to? I guess you mean Bulba?

AGar is asking Bulba to vote for TIP, whom AGar is already voting for and whom Bulba just called out.

[Iecerint]

Thank you. I appreciate someone giving me something instead of rants and drunk posting.

I'm in the same boat. Iec behavior since my attack reads more towards the town section.

lol

[Iecerint]

Okay.

TIP isn't going to be lynched today

We are not going to be lynching people just because of where they were in a room alone, that's stupid and it's like shooting in the dark, it could be anyone regardless of your townreads.

Another person who clearly isn't reading the game.

[Iecerint]

Here is geo'less senario

Ice role blocks the tracker 1 (cant remeber name.) who tracked the bodyguard.

So tracker 1 got no result and whats when ice claims tracker to make tracker 1 look scummy as hell and get the bodyguard on his side

then suddenly someone else was on ice! Ice is caught...

And he is clearly scum

but this is geo full. I have to check the rooms and stuff before i can tell you what happens

There was a false 1/1 before I claimed, and the false 1/1 did not apply anymore after my claim.

A roleblock from across the map would be near 100% likely to fail. The only explanations for targeting someone across the map I can think of are failure to understand the rules (town sided) and having an ability not affected by geography (something like a scum rolecop could work this way).

But I would have no reason to claim a track of all things in that case. Also, it would only make sense for me to interfere at all if Venmar was scum with me, since the 1/1 was in place without my involvement.

I am a little confused by the about-face, too. At first I thought you were mocking someone in your post, but you apparently weren't?

[Iecerint]

Derpobvtown if you like.

[Iecerint]

Another person who clearly isn't reading the game.

Also someone who isn't scumreading you >.>

That's nice of you, but I don't think the case on TIP has anything to do with his room. That's what I was referring to.

[Iecerint]

TIP isn't going to be lynched today

We are not going to be lynching people just because of where they were in a room alone, that's stupid and it's like shooting in the dark, it could be anyone regardless of your townreads.

Yeah, I read these two as related.

[Iecerint]

That there are still four votes on Iec is really dumb. We should stop having four votes on Iec.

Care to explain the case on TIP for me since I cant find it

It is mainly that of all the really awful votes for me, his is the worst. YMMV.

I really don't think ActionDan is town, either. I'm actually maybe more sure about ActionDan not being town tbh.

[Iecerint]

Awful votes aren't no case.

Someone else may have something more specific, though.

[Iecerint]

With Dan I am actually torn between "how you doing" @ talah and his very lazy reasoning (reminded via iso skim).

[Iecerint]

With Dan I am actually torn between "how you doing" @ talah and his very lazy reasoning (reminded via iso skim).

[Iecerint]

ActionDan is in the same room as me, so he "gets" to me before I track, so he should get a valid result on me. And he did!

He thinks it's incriminating simply because 3 tracks is a lot.

[Iecerint]

He thinks it's incriminating simply because 3 tracks is a lot

on this

i'm not really a fan of speculating on something like this, but i don't see any reason there couldn't potentially be three town tracking abilities (if there can be two, there can be three). scum almost certainly have some counters to this (regardless of whether it's two or three town tracking abilities, they probably have a ninja at the very least, as well as decent fake-claims for any active PRs that get caught visiting someone)

i don't really know what is or isn't normal for a zoraster game though. does he usually do role overlaps?

I keep repeating this because people are like "I don't know why AD thinks Iec is scum," but he mentioned it. I am not intending to imply that I think it is valid reasoning. I think it is a crappy, lazy basis for a vote.

I also find is recent lurkiness in light of this consistent with DanScum.

[Iecerint]

also i think bulba is scum

I also kind of think this, especially if TIP is town.

[Iecerint]

@ Bulba, I found your TIP vote kind of unsettling because it seemed to have disproportionate gusto.

[Iecerint]

I can't remember whether Bulba was scum in Zelda.

[Iecerint]

I'm vt and I'm gonna get to this game this weekend (today or tomorrow)
I'm claiming to not waste time

[Iecerint]

I think Dan is probably a scum tracker if he is scum. I think his crumb to talah was legitimate. In other words, I think he tracked as claimed regardless of his alignment.

I guess he would have been trying to capitalize on geography confusion? I think I probably looked pretty vulnerable right after AGar ninjaed my reporting of Zora's clarification PM. Mild closereading would have made it pretty obvious that I was town to anyone closereading, but I would have looked vulnerable. This is why I was really wary of Dan and people who quickjoined his wagon.

His play since that time is all based around trying to put down players who haven't figured things out or caught onto things instead of trying to find scum (e.g., gleefully pointing out that AGar hadn't pointed out that I had tracker-slipped), and then not posting. In addition to being flagrantly anti-town and not coming from someone trying to find scum, I find this suspicious because I think anyone who does that level of closereading should be able to tell that I am town. He felt similar in the Reckoning III game that recently finished, where we lynched scumDan D1.

But I agree with Juls/Muffin/Others about not wanting to lynch him until after the Double Action for boring nightgame reasons. It will be harder for scum to impair all of us.

[Iecerint]

If town people are fakeclaiming this game, consider indicating in your next post that you have fakeclaimed.

You do not need to describe your actual role.

[Iecerint]

I /drunkposted all my posts that night. The reason is that I was drunk. It has nothing to do with my voting for you.

If anything as scum I am way more prone to avoid posting at all if drunk.

[Iecerint]

So unvote?

Drunk just made me bold.

[Iecerint]

Nacho: tip was pretty quite day one. Made one point and just came up and poked at the person he called scummy and I think some of his points in those he found scummy were associated with that player scum read but can't say 100% that is fact because some players defend talah were scum (iec/qwints) and others he laughed at (muffin)

Oh if those players are not scum because of talah I have no clue why he think iec or qwints as scum.

As far as I can tell he thinks I am scum for drunkvoting him.

[Iecerint]

Nacho: tip was pretty quite day one. Made one point and just came up and poked at the person he called scummy and I think some of his points in those he found scummy were associated with that player scum read but can't say 100% that is fact because some players defend talah were scum (iec/qwints) and others he laughed at (muffin)

Oh if those players are not scum because of talah I have no clue why he think iec or qwints as scum.

As far as I can tell he thinks I am scum for drunkvoting him.

Which doesn't really explains why he voted me originally, come to think of it.

[Iecerint]

I didn't have any reason to claim anything about talah at all.

[Iecerint]

I can understand Bulba scum, thoughhhhh he also had a style as town in that game that rubbed certain people the wrong way in Zelda mafia. I townread him early in that game, but I think it was partly based on how he read into his rolename, which I identified with. He also got extra heat for an awkward series of role revelations. So that was game-specific maybe but.

Don't understand the PV scumread so much. Well. I guess the idea is that he's looking like he's evaluating people without it being clear what he's coming away from it with. But I did get the sense that his question to me was kind of a valuable thought exercise, so I don't feel grouchy at him. I guess I shouldn't assume that means he's town, though.

[Iecerint]

IIRC he asked me why ActionDan would vote me as he did as scum. Later, he asked TIP why I would do what I did as sum.

I kind of saw it as an effort to Town Leader and Remove Chaos at first, but since he hasn't done much with it since that time AFAICR I'm meh on it now.

[Iecerint]

I hadn't thought about the geography much since it's going away, but I'll go look over it again.
Are you thinking that once the NK target was selected, that probably the closest available scum did the kill?

Because the only issue I have with that is "why bother?" Chances are good the target won't be protected, so in that case I wouldn't think distance would matter. Pick the kill, send the gooniest/least likely to be tracked.

I'll come back to this later (gotta go to work, it's Friday morning here and then *yay* a week off) but my thought would be that scum wouldn't want to fuck up the geography mechanic so they would almost certainly make the kill in their own room (so we can probably PoE that there is scum in whatever room the scumkill was made in).

I want to clarify this with Zor as well. But my now-understanding of the facts is that if scum submitted a kill against a PR who made an action in a different room, the kill would fail. If that's not the facts then I'm really going to have to figure out why. (Or actually fleeting thought - would it only be true in that case if the PR was non-investigative PR due to resolution order, and in the case of an investigative PR it would succeed unless the kill was *two* rooms away? Anyway back later.)

I think this is wrong. A kill will work regardless of how far away the target is. Geography comes into play for kills only in that a roleblocker could block the kill if the roleblocker was closer than the kill target, or a doctor could block it if the doctor was closer to the target than was the killer.

In other words, the things that stop kills are nerfed by Geography, but the kill itself isn't.

But I am awful at figuring out how it works, so clarification would be nice.

I am not caught up at this point because I've been ill and am just getting back into things.

[Iecerint]

V/LA This Weekend

[Iecerint]

VOTE: BROseidon

@mod replace me out

[Iecerint]

I'm going to try

and fail.

Who all has claimed? If you did, state your role, who you targeted and alignment. And gut is not a good reason to vote someone.

ActionDan tracked Iec, result = talah
Iec trakced talah, result null, due to geography, derp
talah tracked venmar, result null, due to geography, derp
venmar protected oversoul IIRC due to geography

[Iecerint]

1. Because I didn't realize he had claimed and was sick of him.
2. Because I've been semi-lurking.

Do you normally make uninformed uses of your roles?

If you were sick of him, was it because you read him and were sick of him?

what semi?

PV this is scummy. These questions are not going to tell you you whether Aronis is scum.

[Iecerint]

This theory of course makes it likely that I was the one blocked, not Talah, which makes Talah the lying tracker if Iece got a null on her when she claimed to have visit me.

Unless in the brief period I was inactive I missed intricate details about the actual night actions of Iece and AD.

Geography alone accounts for talah's null result and mine, so "find the lying tracker" is not a thing.

"Find your least favorite tracker" might be a valid thing but that is all.

[Iecerint]

I really hope Bulbazak gives us a tl;dr because tl;too disconnected from a single narrative;dr

[Iecerint]

So aronis, tip, Pere, papa zito and oversoul.
Those are my lynch list oh and the player that replaced bro.

This is a pretty good list!

I like farside's post post-bulba reread. I don't know if it means bulba is town but.

[Iecerint]

This midway "oh everyone still pushing me is town" also seems like a town TiP move.

This is actually something that strikes me as pretty scummy. Is this specific to TiP in some way?

[Iecerint]

Do you know his scum meta vs town meta.

I am familiar with TiP meta!

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go

This is a game where we were on a scumteam together. You can see that his "playing dumb" act, for the most part, is blatantly, patently obvious (notice where he votes the IC). The significant difference in this game and that game is how TiP interacts with his scumreads, how often his reads change in this game: you'll notice he had a purple rose tunnel on Day 2 in that game, and yet he never interacted with purple rose to the degree he interacted with talah in this game. When he made his OMGUS votes, he never expressly called them OMGUS and they didn't happen as knee jerk reactions. You'll also notice he never really made a strong effort in strongarming people into townreading him like he's doing here.

OK nevermind, gotcha.

[Iecerint]

Though, I think TiP has only really had 3 opinions in this game.

1. Talah is scum.
2. Iec is scum (4th vote after ActionDan decided I was scum due to 3 being lots)
3. Bulba is scum (occurs when he arises as alternawagon)

It's not as if his reads changed because he was doing critical thinking.

[Iecerint]

Alright, now I'm all caught up!

I basically want to lynch TiP I think, but I am interested in what Nacho thinks about the point that TiP's read-changes might not really be a reflection of thinking about the game.

I am sympathetic to Nacho's meta argument. I think that is pretty much the only thing that makes me hesitate in any way about TiP.

[Iecerint]

I really hope Bulbazak gives us a tl;dr because tl;too disconnected from a single narrative;dr

What do you want to know?

The way I would answer this is, if there are many 2-4 themes that you want people to understand from your big set of quote-stripes, it might be valuable to list them.

[Iecerint]

There is no scum hunting vote, thought process, pivotal moment I can say yes that makes sense, expect for the very first comment he made to talah. That is it and he rode it and rode it despite talah's increase and thought process in the game.
That is something I've seen scum do.

UNVOTE: tip
VOTE: aronis

Juls, you accurately called me out on doing what farside is saying that TiP is doing when I was scum in Dynasty Warriors. I am surprised that you do not seem very sensitive to this point.

[Iecerint]

Farside
If you had a dayvig as scum, why would you waste it on a BP? It doesn't confirm you, it doesn't kill anyone, and it attracts attention.

Aronis and Venmar could simply be scum together. This happened recently in a game I played -- I think it was in the Zelda game I played with Bulba -- so it may have memed around a little.

[Iecerint]

Farside
If you had a dayvig as scum, why would you waste it on a BP? It doesn't confirm you, it doesn't kill anyone, and it attracts attention.

Spoiler alert: he doesn't have a dayvig.

Is this you misreading farside...?

I don't think Aronis has claimed the action was fake.

[Iecerint]

I really hope Bulbazak gives us a tl;dr because tl;too disconnected from a single narrative;dr

What do you want to know?

The way I would answer this is, if there are many 2-4 themes that you want people to understand from your big set of quote-stripes, it might be valuable to list them.

Stop being anti-town. Either read what I wrote or ask me a specific question about something. Don't whine about it and do absolutely nothing.

When I have something that I want people to understand, I make it as likely as possible that people are going to understand it (e.g., by repeating it when it is clearly necessary, etc). I find it hard to understand that you do not have the same instinct.

I am not going to read a series of disconnected one-sentence responses that are 95% intended to be ad hoc responses relevant only to a misunderstanding of clarification that is needed by some other player. Tbf I suspect that 90%+ of the player list is similarly not going to read it, and 100% of players are going to read it critically. If there is anything in there that you want people to understand, you should summarize those specific points in 1-2 sentences.

There might not even be anything to summarize. That would be an OK answer too!

I think that encouraging clear communication is not anti-town. I think that not caring about whether people read your posts critically is scummy (which may not be what your perspective is, but that's how it can be perceived).

[Iecerint]

I feel like lynching the scummy VT-claim that somehow won't go all the way should be the obvious play.

I don't think Nacho really followed-up on the TiP meta counter-points from me and farside.

@ AGar Aronis already said that he asked whether double action would apply to his daykill, and he produced a relevant quote. Check his iso. It actually might be relevant to check the timing of when the Mod made that post, in case Aronis's question motivated it.

[Iecerint]

Day 2's Event

Please note that this is for Day/Night 2, not the current Day/Night

Every

Night

Action may be performed twice. This includes factional abilities such as Night Kills.

One-shot

abilities may still only be used once.

Deadline

Deadline is April 27 at 20:00 EDT --- Time Until Deadline: (expired on 2014-04-27 20:00:00)

Current Active Event:

Geography

Tomorrow's Event:

Double Action

This post was just the one that explained the event, so it wasn't a clarification brought on by a question from Aronis. So, that much does not apply.

But, I still think TiP is the clear lynch. I think I would only entertain non-TiP if I were really confident that TiP was town for some reason, or doubleplus confident that someone else was scum.

Aronis is comforting in that we can at least blame him for his own lynch if he's town, but that's all. My POV.

@ Oversoul - Are you being sarcastic @ Dan? Cuz I almost posted a post at Dan's post. Town Aronis killed a BP because he did not read the game. Tbh I had forgotten the BP part of his claim by that point myself. Though I guess it's fair that someone with a killing role would be less likely to miss that someone was bulletproof. But that also applies to 100% of scum, anyway, so it's a moot point.

[Iecerint]

Yeah Venmar and Nacho have independently done weird things to try to save TiP. It was so intense from Venmar that I took it for a Cop or Mason softclaim at first.

Then I remembered that Venmar had already claimed Bulletproof Bodyguard and TiP declined to claim anything other than VT, so I stopped entertaining that perspective.

[Iecerint]

Tbh i don't think a bodyguard claim is really going to scare scum much. It's not like a dead town bodyguard is a terrible outcome.

It's maybe slightly more true in this case, though, because a bodyguard death is a bit more likely to soft-clear some players while Geography is in play.

[Iecerint]

If TIP flips town can we lynch Agar

Night thing WIFOM will probably come into play tomorrow.

[Iecerint]

Huh? 99% sure you're confusing me with someone else. I didn't even know he had another BP left.

But yes, I agree with that. I forgot about the BP altogether when I typed that out.

[Iecerint]

Double night actions is random. It's just due to the dice rolls.

[Iecerint]

Venmar and Deltawave need to vote someone else.

Peregrine, mnemonic, Shaded, and TiP need to vote someone.

[Iecerint]

Zora, if a Mystery Card is drawn, will that allow the Mystery Card result to be an action that is otherwise not possible (e.g., could Day of Death or Nominations be picked)?

[Iecerint]

I don't have time to be logical Nacho.
I would like to ask why we're not killing Aronis.

Especially Iecerint, Bulbazak.

Using a dayvig on a claimed bulletproof makes no sense as a reaction test, and if it was a reaction test, all Aronis had to do was out that it was fake.
Aronis threatening the dayvig earlier but not using it and then threatening it now and using it (on a claimed bulletproof) makes no sense and is Aronis bullshitting a dayvig.

Aronis would probably be my second-favorite lynch. The main things that makes me like TiP a lot are a) disliking some of the defenses made of him in type and/or in intensity, specifically those from you and Venmar, so I can understand you not being sensitive to this, and b) the weird difficulty in getting this wagon going the rest of the way despite him being a claimed VT.

[Iecerint]

You should probably evaluate Aronis and TheIrishPope.

The main event you will want to understand for evaluating TheIrishPope is an actions clusterfuck at the start of D2. Talah tracked Venmar, null result. Iecerint tracked talah, null result. ActionDan tracked Iecerint to talah. Geography, a day-specific event, accounts for both null results on its own.

[Iecerint]

Nacho being scum could also be a thing. Strange single-mindedness in nature of defense of TheIrishPope.

[Iecerint]

Nacho being scum could also be a thing. Strange single-mindedness in nature of defense of TheIrishPope.

Would I defend my partner like this, or would I defend a townie like this?

You dropped the nature of the defense altogether once farside and I asked questions about it rather than doubling down. That's part of the weirdness that makes me think partners rather than whiteknights.

But yes, the possibility that you could scum regardless of TiP's alignment has crossed my mind.

[Iecerint]

To be honest I am skeptical that it is a reasonable place to go. I guess it's more reasonable than before the veto, though, with the extra 2 days.

[Iecerint]

What did nacho do that is scum claim? How he vetoed?

Correct. He did the scum version of the veto directly after a scum veto went public. Meaning he didn't bother looking at the rules again when doing the town version. Corollary: We know (at least) some of the scum are active due to both the veto happening and its timing; Nacho is one of the more active players.

I don't get at all what your saying.

Town version of veto is VOTE: Veto
Scum version of veto is

veto:

cardname

Nacho used the scum version. Notice how my veto (correctly done) was counted while his (incorrectly done) was not.

Nacho used the scum version because he just vetoed Dia De Los Muertos and then came into the game thread to veto again.


Since you just did the same thing I'm finding you highly suspect as well.

Fixed quotes.


Where is AGar I need someone to scream this until it gets done.

Ah, I see what you mean now. I thought you were just being cheeky.

I will totally switch to Nacho for that.

[Iecerint]

To be honest I am skeptical that it is a reasonable place to go. I guess it's more reasonable than before the veto, though, with the extra 2 days.

also, what extra two days?

Deadline is now in two days I thought, rather than being in 15 minutes.

[Iecerint]

I was wondering about this too. I half wondered if delta wave is scum since cheery dog replaced him and in the same day the veto was activated.

For my memories

[Iecerint]

VOTE: Veto
UNVOTE: TiP
VOTE: Nacho

[Iecerint]

Well.

UNVOTE: Nacho

Let's hammer out the Veto first.

[Iecerint]

@ Magua: Papa Zito's perceived catch on Nacho is quoted in a post of mine on the previous page.

Summary

: the Veto mechanic has different syntax if scum (privately) or town use it, and Nacho used the scum syntax in the game thread. He did this after scum had just used a Veto, so we know that scum knew how the scum veto syntax works. Nacho's counter-argument is that scumNacho would have checked the rules to know how to fake it if scum, but I find this non-persuasive because scum would not necessarily guess that the syntax was any different AFAICT.

The fancy mechanic in this game is that each day has a newfangled rule that modifies something. The scumteam and townteam have a teamwide Veto of the effects. Tomorrow's effect was going to be that dead players could deadtalk, but the scum veto'd it, and it was replaced (via RNG) by a perceived-scum-sided "small groups find people eligible for voting"-type mechanic. We are vetoing that mechanic to try to get something nicer tomorrow.

[Iecerint]

By which I mean that players who die N2 would be able to post D3.

The current day/night phase has Double Action in effect for N2. You can use any night actions twice, with some restrictions (

so, please don't miss this if you just replaced in

). Dead players sharing night actions tomorrow from the grave would've been so handy.

[Iecerint]

Yep

If I were scum and was aware of there being a town veto and a mafia veto and just veto'ed a card, I would probably take the five seconds to figure out how to fake a town veto in order to avoid a situation like this.

[Iecerint]

Here's the Veto rules from the OP

Veto Powers

A Veto must be used the Day before it activates. A veto causes a new set of cards to be drawn (both regular and lylo). Any veto that occurs within 48 hours of the deadline will push the deadline to be 48 hours after the veto. Vetoes may not be used in "twilight" (i.e. after the hammer or after the deadline).

Town Veto

Town may veto one event during the game. To do so, players must simply Vote: Veto or VOTE: Veto. If a majority of players alive vote for it, the card(s) is/are vetoed and another (not the same) is drawn immediately. This MUST be done the Day before the card activates. The Mystery Card may be vetoed, but the card that is drawn via Mystery Card may not. The Town Veto vote may occur regardless of ANY events currently happening (e.g. Secret Ballot).

Mafia Veto

The mafia may veto one card during the game. This card may not occur for one day after.

To Veto a Card, simply type in the Mafia thread VETO: <Card Name>. Once the mod sees this, he will draw a new one that is not that card.

[Iecerint]

If you are not yet voting for a Veto, please vote Veto in your next post or say that you do not want to veto.

We have fewer than 48 hours to Veto and then lynch.

[Iecerint]

Oh wait, we'll actually get a deadline reset when we re-veto.

So nevermind; no longer a catastrophe.

But do say if you don't want to veto.

[Iecerint]

I think a large part of Nomination being bad is the large number of players with low levels of engagement in the game.

I guess if you were more optimistic you could argue that it might make the players iso those in their rooms.

[Iecerint]

Well, if we don't veto, then we are back into crunch-time.

VOTE: Nacho

I am basically happy with any of TiP/Aronis/Nacho; I think scum who had already vetoed would assume the same format and use that format. Speaking personally, it didn't even occur to me to look for a particular veto format in the rules one way or the other.

[Iecerint]

UNVOTE: Veto

[Iecerint]

VOTE: Nacho

[Iecerint]

Well, the word VETO is in bold in the Mafia section, so it might draw the eye more. But yeah, it's pretty tortured reasoning.

[Iecerint]

Caps, rather.

[Iecerint]

He doesn't really have a choice with regard to how he answers them.

"I routinely use my role poorly; thanks for asking!"

"Nope, I didn't read the game!"

"You're right; I lurk everywhere!"

The questions do not allow him to answer in the above way, so they are just designed to put him into a defensive position.

Anyway, I think he ignored them.

[Iecerint]

Need 3 votes in 24 hours.

[Iecerint]

This is the dumbest fucking wagon I've ever seen in my entire life.

It's not that dumb. I think you should be able to appreciate why it is a very rational wagon.

If townNacho legit made up a syntax that just happened to match the mafia one, then I'm sorry, but it's pretty damning.

[Iecerint]

This is the dumbest fucking wagon I've ever seen in my entire life.

It's not that dumb. I think you should be able to appreciate why it is a very rational wagon.

If townNacho legit made up a syntax that just happened to match the mafia one, then I'm sorry, but it's pretty damning.

You think I should appreciate why it's a rational wagon because I veto'ed like the mafia veto.
How did would I know the proper syntax for the mafia veto?
(By reading the rules.)

You would know mafia syntax because the mafia had just vetoed Day of the Dead in the mafia QT. We know they did because it was vetoed.

@ nacho:
A Veto must be used the Day before it activates. A veto causes a new set of cards to be drawn (both regular and lylo). Any veto that occurs within 48 hours of the deadline will push the deadline to be 48 hours after the veto. Vetoes may not be used in "twilight" (i.e. after the hammer or after the deadline).

That is in the rules for veto

You I'm worried about too many lurkers and possible things that can get screwed more then it helping.

Veto: nomination

OH LOOK FARSIDE USED SCUM SYNTAX I'M ABSOLUTELY SURE SHE'S COMPLETELY FUCKING SCUM

That was after you had already used the scum syntax; you can explain this away as her seeing your veto syntax and assuming it was appropriate.

[Iecerint]

If you do ctrl + f veto, you'll find the town one first.

Also, you would have mentioned this earlier -- for example, prior to MuffinMan saying that he would think you plausibly town for giving exactly that explanation.

[Iecerint]

It's so sad because I love you Nacho.

But I'll still see you next week!

This isn't goodbye forever!

[Iecerint]

Nacho I love you.

I'm sorry that you got lynched due to a silly ruleset discrepancy.

D:

[Iecerint]

Unvote; Vote: TiP

[Iecerint]

If he is scum who chooses to confirm himself using a scumfriend, that only helps us in the longer term. I am inclined to let it happen, or let scum pull out their 4 roleblocks.

[Iecerint]

I am making a joke about how many roleblocks are needed to stop all the Double Action power, plus Nacho's action.

[Iecerint]

(3 + 1 = 4)

[Iecerint]

We don't know whether roleblockers exist or what form they take.

[Iecerint]

hey nacho

is it just a massive coincidence you rolled the fake claim you were considering using in 169?

lol

[Iecerint]

holy shit DOMO is flying down paranoiaville at the moment and nothing can stop him
muffin, my fake claim is friendly neighbor
i won't die

Someone else "Z-2" cautions him about it in several posts, then:

I don't think that I'm going to claim friendly neighbor at this point. If there was ever a time for a VT fakeclaim, that time is now.

[Iecerint]

It's from like January-February of 2014, so fairly recently.

[Iecerint]

That kind of makes me want to just lynch Nacho. Way too many coincidences.

Unvote; Vote: Nacho

[Iecerint]

I really really really really think Nacho is scum. He is scum who did scummy things and then scumslipped and then made a suspicious get-out-of-lynch-free fakeclaim that we know he has planned to fakeclaim with previously.

I will bow down to the gods of Alanis Morissette Irony if he is town.

[Iecerint]

Please vote for Nacho so that whichever of you is Nacho's scumfriend hoping they wait out the clock successfully will be pressured to vote him, too.

[Iecerint]

Guys I know that TiP REALLY wants to get lynched today. Like, he is probably trying to rig the game and he is betting money that he will be lynched today in some kind of credit default swap thing.

But Nacho Nacho Nacho.

OK.