You Could Be Anyone III GAME OVER

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #380 (isolation #0) » Wed Mar 25, 2015 12:10 pm

UNVOTE:

Thanks for the invite

I'm visiting a castle this morning so this is a "hi I exist" post and will go through the game when I get back.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #387 (isolation #1) » Wed Mar 25, 2015 7:59 pm

@AliveChihiro

Why did you not care about Jager's faked dayvig on you, after going all out on Yakko complete with wiki links and a vote?

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #411 (isolation #2) » Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:02 pm

@AliveChihiro

Your vote on Yakko is complicated.

Yakko made what appeared to be on the surface a somewhat ridiculous statement: He believed 100% that a slot (mine) was scum. Monkey countered with "How can you believe anything 100%?" and that Yakko must therefore be faking his reads, and Yakko said that he would lie to push through a lynch. In response you quoted a couple of wiki links, as well as lynch all liars, and a vote.

I want to talk about belief for a moment. It's non content so I'll spoiler it.

Spoiler:

I say 'on the surface' because before that, Yakko quantified that he didn't have some kind of way to measure somebody's scum-index rating on a percentage scale, and that right then, he felt my slot was 100% scum.
Belief is a tricky thing and there are plenty of people who believe quite ridiculous things without any basis in logic or reality. For example, anti-vaccers. There's a group of people that believe that people called 'anti-vaccers' exist - people who don't immunise their children in case they develop autism, despite no basis for thinking so and ignoring that the benefits of immunisation far outweigh any imagined drawbacks - I can't believe that such a group called 'anti-vaccers' actually exist. To me, the idea that a person would willfully endanger their children for no good reason is alien. I can't believe such people exist, even in a country as religiously diverse as America.

The question of matter that I would expect Chihiro to be positing is: Did town!Yakko truly believe, or did scum!Yakko *know*, or did scum!Yakko fake a read?
Since I'm the position of being one of the players he accused to be scum, I can check my role pm, and see that it is town!Yakko believing or scum!Yakko faking his read. However, reading the depth of Yakko's position, I am struggling to see how scum would swear black and blue that somebody that they knew is town is scum after being pressured to drop it.

Anybody else should have put forward the last two options and argued for his lynch on that basis. I think option two is the most compelling since it could be scum bussing, and town minded players would want to investigate that. That's why I can see town!Yakko's perspective

at this point in time

.

I DO question his statement that he would lie to push through a lynch on day 1. I think you were right to question him on this - if Yakko had actually lied to push through a lynch, especially one that had flipped town.

However, Yakko was not pushing through a lynch, and we don't have a flip. We can dispute whether or not he lied about his reads. I posit we can't know, since people can believe. When I look back on 4Burner's posts, I see a lot of fairly aggressive and serious content. It's easy to see how certain play styles would react poorly to this. I would have voted it.

Ultimately when I drill down on it I don't see Yakko making a concrete lie. He said he would lie if circumstances benefit, but he hadn't lied...yet.

But then we had Jaqar fake a town-pr, which is a bold-faced lie, and you didn't react to it until after Jaqar and I asked you about it. You've now quantified that it doesn't impact your opinion on Yakko at all, and in fact are handing out a psuedo town clear of Jaqar because of it.

So I guess what I see is a fairly convoluted vote for Yakko that is at best, arguably based on "Town never lie" "Yakko maybe lied" "Yakko is scum", and when you saw Jaqar fake a claim, you didn't go "Town never lie" "Jaqar DEFINITELY lied" "Jaqar is town."

Maybe I'm not seeing things from your perspective properly. Could you please try and explain it again for me?

Partly because... well, I don't know how to respond to such things.

Having believed I was dayvigged in a game that just finished up, I can say at least my response was 'panic' and 'spam the game with my reads' mixed with anger/frustration.

Cut.

Monkey

Stating that all reads should be 100% town or scum.

That's not entirely accurate. What Yakko said was this in response to Elyse's question, "how confident percentage wise are you that 4Burner is scum?"

what do you mean? like am I 50 or 60% sure that he is scum? If yes then
for now
I am 100% sure that he is scum. Just like I am 100% sure that you are scum. their is no grey area either you think someone is scum or you don't. asking for percentages seems fairly pointless.
Unless you yourself have some sort of system for catching scum then I would love to hear it post game.

What I take away from this is that, at that point in time, Yakko 100% believed that Elyse and I were scum. After my last game, I was still confident that a certain player was scum, even though the game was over and they were town. *Shrug* I don't think he was saying anything like all players reads must be 100% town or scum.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #418 (isolation #3) » Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:53 pm

Monkey

That indicates that he thinks that all reads should be 100% scum or town. If he wants to backtrack that's fine but that is what he said.

I agree that he believes all reads should be 100% scum or town. I'm not disputing this or whether or not it is a good idea.

Do you think Yakko's actions are consistent with his beliefs?

Do you think Chihiro's actions are consistent with hers?

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #421 (isolation #4) » Thu Mar 26, 2015 2:16 pm

@Monkey

If you want to meta dive Yakko and share the results to support your case, go for it.

Otherwise, I'm only considering this game. In this game, do you believe Yakko's statements and votes are inconsistent with each other? If so, how/why.

You can read my questioning of Chihiro to get the fine details, but the meat of it is, Chihiro dismissed the definitely faked town pr/vig while she's voting Yakko for

possibly

faking a scum read. To me, this looks inconsistent. What do you think?

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #532 (isolation #5) » Sat Mar 28, 2015 3:09 pm

I'm currently stuck on my iPhone. I promised myself not to post from iPhone because last game I had a lot of rage creep into my playstyle while iPhone posting. I will get to my PC finally this afternoon or tomorrow and do what I didn't finish yet.
I didn't vote because I was undecided on Yakka vs alivechihiro. I'm evaluating if I beleive alivechihiro and I'm not sold on town Yakko yet either. Chihiros recent vote on jaqar needs reviewing.
I also want to evaluate the wagon on cougar to see if I agree/disagree. I'm sorry and ill commit more as soon as I can.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #560 (isolation #6) » Sun Mar 29, 2015 12:50 pm

I'm here and with time. Re-reading the thread now.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #570 (isolation #7) » Sun Mar 29, 2015 4:41 pm

Do you like walls? No you don't. Do you like all the boring stuff spoilered out? Yes you do! Have a spoilered wall~

Spoiler:

VOTE: alivechihiro

I'm going to go review the SC situation that is unfolding. BRB.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #601 (isolation #8) » Mon Mar 30, 2015 3:16 pm

If you can make a case that isn't solely based on meta and us believing you at face value, you could persuade me.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #606 (isolation #9) » Mon Mar 30, 2015 4:47 pm

why don't you tell us an original thought on why monkey isn't scum then. or are you saying he isn't scummy enough for you to vote him?

I'm saying he isn't scummy enough for me to vote him. If you or Boon want to bring something to my attention to change my opinion, please do so. But it would have to be pretty good to beat Boonskies self-voting. There's no reason for town to self-vote, ever. I don't care if a player 'always does it as town'. If a player 'always does it' then it's easy to fake as well.

The question for me is really: Do I think alivechihiro is scummier than Boon? And that's something I'm going to chew on after I finish the SC analysis. Which is taking longer than I expected :/

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #608 (isolation #10) » Mon Mar 30, 2015 5:16 pm

I asked this in response to Yakko, who seems annoyed I'm not sheeping Boon and voting Monkey. If I'm choosing between Boon and Monkey, I'll vote Boon - nothing from Boon or Yakko has yet been presented to suggest why Monkey is scum over the two of them.

I haven't really paid attention to Boon outside of noting he self voted, asked to be killed, claimed vanilla town, and then suddenly decided to play again.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #664 (isolation #11) » Wed Apr 01, 2015 1:22 pm

Here we go, sorry for the delay. There's just not enough coffee in the world sometimes.

This started out as an ISO of the votes on SC, but by the time it was half done, the wagon had shifted to Boon. So I started again and this time I noticed some names changing around more than expected, so...

Quote wall of vote tallies

Spoiler:

March 20:

hi im Yakko (5): Fresh, StrangerCoug, MonkeyMan576, alivechihiro, massive
Pine (2): _Q2, I Am Innocent
4burner (1): Pine
PeregrineV (1): Aunt Jemina
_Q2 (1): 4burner
Aunt Jemina (1): PeregrineV
Jaqen Hghar (1): T S O
Elyse (1): Garmr
MonkeyMan576 (1): hi im Yakko
massive (1): ZZZX
T S O (1): inte

March 21

hi im Yakko (6): Fresh, StrangerCoug, MonkeyMan576, alivechihiro, massive, PeregrineV
Elyse (3): Garmr, Aunt Jemina, I Am Innocent
4burner (1): Pine
Pine (1): _Q2
_Q2 (1): 4burner
alivechihiro (1): Boonskiies
Boonskiies (1): Elyse
Jaqen Hghar (1): T S O
MonkeyMan576 (1): hi im Yakko
massive (1): ZZZX
T S O (1): inte

March 23

hi im Yakko (4): MonkeyMan576, alivechihiro, massive, PeregrineV
StrangerCoug (3): DeltaWave, Fresh, Boonskiies
Elyse (3): Garmr, Aunt Jemina, I Am Innocent
Garmr (1): T S O
4burner (1): Pine
Pine (1): _Q2
_Q2 (1): 4burner
Boonskiies (1): Elyse
Fresh (1): StrangerCoug
MonkeyMan576 (1): hi im Yakko
massive (1): ZZZX
T S O (1): inte

March 25

StrangerCoug (5): DeltaWave, Fresh, Boonskiies, PeregrineV, Ankamius
I Am Innocent (3): ZZZX, Jaqen Hghar, massive
Elyse (3): Garmr, Aunt Jemina, I Am Innocent
hi im Yakko (2): MonkeyMan576, alivechihiro
inte (1): StrangerCoug
4burner (1): Pine
T S O (1): inte
ZZZX (1): T S O
Boonskiies (1): Elyse
Ankamius (1): 4burner
MonkeyMan576 (1): hi im Yakko

March 29

StrangerCoug (5): DeltaWave, Fresh, Ankamius, Boonskiies, MonkeyMan576
Boonskiies (3): Elyse, T S O, StrangerCoug
Elyse (2): Aunt Jemina, I Am Innocent
Sky_Paladin (2): Pine, PeregrineV
I Am Innocent (1): massive
alivechihiro (1): Jaqen Hghar
T S O (1): inte
hi im Yakko (1): alivechihiro
Klingoncelt (1): ZZZX
ZZZX (1): Klingoncelt
Ankamius (1): Garmr

March 30

StrangerCoug (5): DeltaWave, Fresh, Ankamius, Boonskiies, MonkeyMan576
Boonskiies (3): Elyse, T S O, StrangerCoug
Elyse (2): Aunt Jemina, I Am Innocent
Sky_Paladin (2): Kthxbye, PeregrineV
I Am Innocent (1): massive
alivechihiro (1): Jaqen Hghar
T S O (1): inte
Klingoncelt (1): ZZZX
ZZZX (1): Klingoncelt
Jaqen Hghar (1): alivechihiro
Ankamius (1): Garmr
MonkeyMan576 (1): hi im Yakko

April 1

Boonskiies (6): Elyse, T S O, StrangerCoug, Aunt Jemina, Ankamius, MonkeyMan576
alivechihiro (2): Jaqen Hghar, Sky_Paladin
Jaqen Hghar (2): alivechihiro, DeltaWave
MonkeyMan576 (2): hi im Yakko, Boonskiies
I Am Innocent (1): massive
T S O (1): inte
Klingoncelt (1): ZZZX
ZZZX (1): Klingoncelt
StrangerCoug (1): Fresh
Ankamius (1): Garmr
Elyse (1): I Am Innocent
Sky_Paladin (1): PeregrineV

Yakko bandwagon: Fresh, StrangerCoug, MonkeyMan576, alivechihiro, massive, PeregrineV
Strange bandwagon: DeltaWave, Fresh, Ankamius, Boonskiies, MonkeyMan576
Boon bandwagon: Elyse, T S O, StrangerCoug, Aunt Jemina, Ankamius, MonkeyMan576

There's a couple of names there that appear twice, but Monkey is the only one that jumped on all the wagons at some point. That questions the integrity of his vote. Let me go have a look at all of them.

Vote/ISO analysis

Spoiler:

Main points:

Fails to apply logical conclusions to his own statements.
Voting on SC because SC is being 'inconsistent' yet acknowledges alivechihiro was inconsistent and doesn't evaluate Yakko vs chihiro.
Seems to 'forget' his scum reads - hops from wagon to wagon rather than considering his supposed reads. Leads me to the conclusion that his reads are fabricated on Yakko/SC.
Voting on Boon despite sheeping Boon on SC appear to be distancing tactics.

Overall I think there's a very strong likelihood that Monkeyman has been operating with a scum agenda in mind.

UNVOTE: alivechihiro
VOTE: MonkeyMan

I think this probably correlates to scum!Boon as well, but I haven't iso'd him yet so I'll vote here and reflect on it.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #679 (isolation #12) » Thu Apr 02, 2015 2:08 pm

@Peregrine

Sky Paladin has been doing bad summaries that don't seem to draw any alignment-determining conclusions.

Summary #1 - Case for alivechihiro.
Summary #2 - Case for Monkeyman and secondary pick for Boon.

I do flag Fresh/Peregrine/Boon/Monkey for their rapid wagon hopping as well, even though I don't drill down at this point. I felt that pursuing too many players at once would disperse town's focus away from Monkey. Perhaps this is what you meant by "don't seem to draw any alignment-determining conclusions."

Maybe you could explain why you feel they are bad summaries. I spend a lot of time on them, and if there's a way I could make them better, I'd appreciate the feedback.

@Elyse

I like PV's vote on SP even if I disagree with it.

Could you please explain this comment?

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #684 (isolation #13) » Thu Apr 02, 2015 3:17 pm

@Elyse

I also think PV starting a new wagon points to him being town because unless he's scum with Boon and Monkey

PV did not start a new wagon, and even if he did - do you still have this view considering PV voted me without explanation before I had posted, and has not addressed his vote in any way until near the end of the phase?

"Hai guys look at Sky" isn't what I consider scum hunting. I feel that if he had any intent behind his vote he might have referred back to 4Burner's posts, or at least highlighted some point from what I had written. That's why I have asked PV to clarify. I think town are going to ask questions and challenge cases.

Part of the reason why I am confident on my Monkey case/vote. He basically ignored the case and had no comment after I labelled him scum with Boon. Here is his post right after my case and vote, where he says it's pointless to lynch town unless you're scum. It's not addressed to anybody in particular.

Basically I'm seeing a categorical lack of Monkey explaining why he votes and I called him on it. If PV can explain why he doesn't like my case/vote on chihiro and Monkey I have no issue with it. Until then, it looks more like trying to shut up town/misdirect votes than anything else.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #689 (isolation #14) » Thu Apr 02, 2015 5:46 pm

I define leaving one wagon to vote on another wagon is still wagon hopping, because you left one wagon to join another one. I accept your vote was first/early on Yakko, though, so I consider your activity significantly less suspicious than Monkey/Boon/PV.

I can accept from your position my statement at least

appears

like fabrication so no hard feelings.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #767 (isolation #15) » Sun Apr 05, 2015 1:17 pm

Yeah I support a claim from Yakko. Obviously he's not my top scum pick him but with 20 hours left and no realistic counter wagons he's quickly becoming the only viable lynch.

Although with nine players effectively not voting wow.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #792 (isolation #16) » Sun Apr 05, 2015 5:43 pm

UNVOTE: Monkey

Kthxbye, I don't really see the appeal of a flash wagon at the 15 hour mark on day 1. With this little time left, making a good panic consolidation choice seems increasingly unlikely. I'd rather lynch where I think it will do some good.

I am struggling to get my genuine scum read lynched and I don't feel like randomly lynching somebody that I have had zero interactions with and we won't get a whole lot of value out of if they happen to flip town.

OTOH we can get a lot of good interaction tells from Yakko's flip - we had many players vote for him, and then vote off of him, and that's something we can make use of regardless of his color. Also I can see he has been active elsewhere so he's seen the request for a claim and failed to respond in thread about it. So...

VOTE: Yakko

L-1

.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #798 (isolation #17) » Sun Apr 05, 2015 7:24 pm

Yakko. You actually quoted kthxbye asking you to claim and threaten to hammer, and still no claim.

:V

Drop the hammer.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #800 (isolation #18) » Sun Apr 05, 2015 8:06 pm

Then it should be in my interest to die to help town.

By your own argument...shouldn't you then self-hammer?

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #837 (isolation #19) » Thu Apr 09, 2015 12:23 pm

kt

Actually, since everyone that is running Elyse up right now was either not on the Yakko wagon or have provided town-looking info, I'll join this choo-choo.

I could sheep this.

AJ

I have an eye, rather strongly, pending further evaluation, on Kt.

So I want an explanation for this.

***Klingoncelt, T S O, alivechihiro, MonkeyMan576, Jaqen Hghar, Boonskiies, Elyse, massive, DeltaWave, Sky_Paladin, Kthxbye***

The votes I'm most suspicious of are everybody from alivechihiro through to Delta. I'll trust MM that his role info is legit until we get a reason to believe otherwise.
Jaqen in particular, after the whole gambit/vig + chihiro is a liar dealio, I'm surprised ended up voting alongside chihiro.

I'll look in to the other votes in greater detail soon (tm).

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #899 (isolation #20) » Sat Apr 11, 2015 1:45 pm

Sorry, I have been busier than expected and will be for another two days. Going v/la.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #935 (isolation #21) » Mon Apr 13, 2015 9:50 pm

Back and reading. I have a few things to focus on first but I'll be able to devote a good wall or two in the next few hours.

In the meantime, a question for the crowd - how many scum do you think there are this game? If MM is confirming 3 on the wagon, the rest must be off the wagon...and that pool is smaller.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #955 (isolation #22) » Tue Apr 14, 2015 9:13 pm

Also because I'm pretty sure that we have 2 Scumteams here. 3:3.

I haven't really seen anything to indicate that there's two scum teams. If you know otherwise, please share.

I speculated looking at the non-Yakko wagon because I thought that five or six scums felt about right for this number of players. If we have 6 scums, then we're better off lynching in the off-wagon - scum will necessarily want to hit amongst the on-wagon. So both groups will get whittled down roughly evenly I'd imagine, with scum progessively standing out the longer the game drags on. If we lynched the Yakko wagon, scum would start hitting outside of there.

That's why I wanted to know how many scum people thought there were, but nobody responded really. I'll review this game next.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #959 (isolation #23) » Tue Apr 14, 2015 9:59 pm

There are 18 players in the game who could have commented. Aside from yourself and Klingon, who brought up 'there are two scum teams!', nobody else did. 'Nobody responded really' is accurate.

I'm okay with lynching from the Yakko wagon as it is intuitively the best since we're told there are definitely three there. But if MM is scum and lied to us about how many scum voted for Yakko, how long until we find that out? Scum aren't going to hit him. And by the time we've lynched enough players from the lynch pool to find out MM lied, that's six or seven lynches where we're following the unconfirmed cop. So yes, I am considering lynching outside of that pool if I find something scummy.

If it wasn't for MM's claim I would be voting him already. As it stands we have no basis of believing it. But the claim came unprovoked so I'm inclined to trust it for now.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #961 (isolation #24) » Tue Apr 14, 2015 10:59 pm

I haven't ended anything. Currently we have an opinion pool of three people, you, me, Klingon. I think there's probably 5-6 scums. More people can/should comment.

Sky_Paladin · Thu Apr 16, 2015 11:08 am

Klingoncelt, do you believe MonkeyMan's claim?

Sky_Paladin · Thu Apr 16, 2015 11:47 am

MonkeyMan

What incentive would I have to lie? It's not gamebreaking information.

Seeing as I am completely evil to the core, this kind of thing comes up a lot where I come from (Megatokyo games).

MM was one of the counter wagons to town-Yakko at one point on day 1.
Let's say hypothetically MM is scum.

When you start day 2 saying '3 players on the Yakko wagon are scum', the information is correct because you know it's true - you know where all your buddies are.
There's eleven players to lynch from on the Yakko pool; but only about six mislynches up town's sleeve, assuming scum are making one hit a night.
It's incredibly compelling to lynch from Yakko's pool because it seems statistically more probably to catch scum.
If we always lynch from this pool, and scum always hits from outside of the pool (because that's sensible), then it becomes a positive reinforcement loop - ok, we didn't get scum THIS time, but now there's only ten players left, so 30% chance! OK, we didn't lynch scum THIS time, but now there's only nine....eight....seven...six...

Town probably has a means to get some townclears out from amongst this group, but by the time the group is whittled down to a confirmable size, we've had an awful lot of mis-lynches. Sure, scum eventually has to sacrifice their buddy MM, but by then, they've probably had three or four free mislynches. That's a very good trade. Especially if it turns out only one or two scum are in the group...

So I would say your motivation would be that you are scum and that you want to mislead town. Since you already told us your ability is one-shot, and I thought you were scum from day 1, I wonder if the best thing town could do is to get a flip on Monkey so we can work out if we can trust his claim or not. Klingoncelt is one of the only players really considering it/dual scum teams, so that's why I asked him.

Other than that, I pretty much want to sheep StrangeCoug because I'm in agreement with him re Boon.

Sky_Paladin · Thu Apr 16, 2015 12:08 pm

It's not 'good logic', it's just 'what happens' where I normally play. If one of the scum players is feeling the heat on day 1, they'll claim sensor on day 2 and say some arbitrary number of players are scum in (pool) to lock town into lynching amongst a set group. So we normally lynch the claimed sensor since they're usually scum and worst case scenario you can at least confirm the number of scum on the wagon.

I'm guessing this hasn't entered into the meta here yet. It probably will soon though :V

Sky_Paladin · Thu Apr 16, 2015 12:09 pm

But tbh I also have initial doubts about it because like KC said, MonkeyMan offered it without real pressure on day 2, and also stated the ability was one-shot. That kind of detail I wouldn't expect to see in a scum fake claim. I'm just left with this feeling that MM is scum and it's really hard to shake.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #1030 (isolation #29) » Thu Apr 16, 2015 2:45 pm

VOTE: Boonskies

I'm pretty unhappy with your day 1 activity, and I felt strongly that there was scum amongst Boon/Monkey. If we think Monkey's town, then that leaves Boon.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #1036 (isolation #30) » Thu Apr 16, 2015 4:35 pm

The ONLY way it would serve them is if NONE of the scum were on Yakko's wagon at which point, numbers wise, they'd still lose.

That's incorrect. It's been explained that scum benefit regardless of how many of them are actually on the wagon (up to around four, I suppose). So MM's claim is actually null at this stage, although later in the game it may become more useful.

What I did was establish beyond all doubt that MM's flip is vital to town, so scum will never hit him. You're welcome.

I'm paranoid because I'm seeing town focus on one train of thought and not scum hunting/vote analysing. Which is playing right in to scummy hands imo.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #1040 (isolation #31) » Fri Apr 17, 2015 5:15 am

Also VLA for a few days.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #1050 (isolation #32) » Sat Apr 18, 2015 4:09 am

I would basically lynch MM off of day 1 and

as a bonus

confirm if we can trust his information or not. I spent a great deal of day 1 cross-checking and coming up with red alerts on MM/Chihiro's votes on Yakko, with MM more in the red than Chihiro. I view his surprise announcement with a great deal of suspicion and increasingly more as I review his posts.

I also see the sudden turbo-lynch of Yakko as orchestrated by TSO/Boonskies/MonkeyMan as scum-motivated and I'd be happy to lynch any of these.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #1085 (isolation #33) » Sat Apr 18, 2015 1:18 pm

@TSO

I'd bet the three scum here are at the latter end of the wagon.

What is your basis for this?

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #1090 (isolation #34) » Sat Apr 18, 2015 1:57 pm

@TSO

Wagon speed, and me having more townreads at the other end.

Yakko was on one vote before you voted and urged for his quicklynch. Here are some memorable TSO quotes.

In post 721, T S O wrote:YAKKO YAKKO YAKKO

DIE DIE DIE

YAKKO YAKKO YAKKO

DIE DIE DIE

In post 729, T S O wrote:Don't let that guy dissuade you - join the Yakko wagon and get towncred for three (3) days now!

In post 770, T S O wrote:DeltaWave, Yakko is literally the only wagon. Feel free to join.

In post 804, T S O wrote:Sweet. Nice work, town.

The counter wagons before TSO engineered the turbolynch of Yakko (of which Elyse, Alivechihiro and Monkeyman all jumped on to

immediately

) were Boonskies and MonkeyMan.

So not only was the wagon engineered by TSO, the ones who did the quick voting were all at the front/mid of the group.

Contrast with the last few votes, which were mine, Kthx, and Delta, seeing Yakko refusing to claim. I'd spent most of day 1 deconstructing Monkey and AliveChihiro's votes on the Yakko wagon so no, you don't get to arbitrarily handwave that 'the last three players were scum'.

Your move.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #1092 (isolation #35) » Sat Apr 18, 2015 2:06 pm

Basically I'm not seeing the case of "The last few voters must be scum" because the only way I could see that is if there was a credible counterwagon that required them to quickhammer to finish the day. All of the votes on Yakko, aside from Klingoncelt's, arrived in the last 48 hours of the day phase. By the time Delta/Kthx/and I voted, those wagons were no longer existent.

Yakko refused to claim which is unforgivable from town. I can't see Kthx as scummy for his hammer - you'll need to go back and show interactions that suggest he was scummy for other things if you want his lynch. You argued with Delta that he should vote Yakko, too. Your post death/pre-flip comment further showed that you believed in a Yakko-scum flip.

So frankly I see your supposed change of heart and suspicion of the last three players, along with the turbolynch on town over two very scummy players, as completely scum motivated.

UNVOTE: Monkeyman
VOTE: TSO

cut;

I didn't "jump to" any wagon, I was one of the first to suspect Yakko.

You were voting Boonskies at the time, and I had previously completely destroyed your case on Yakko, which you ignored. That's why I was voting you. Did you forget?

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #1094 (isolation #36) » Sat Apr 18, 2015 3:27 pm

So if we consider that your vote was "justified" does that mean you feel other votes were not "justified".
If so: whose votes do you think we're not justified, and why?

Sky_Paladin · Sun Apr 19, 2015 11:15 am

Obviously, there are two scum not on the Yakko wagon.

We had a discussion about how many scum there are in the game because it is not publicly known.

Your sensor ability supposedly told you only that there were three scum on the Yakko wagon. What basis do you have for thinking there are five scum?

The only thing that I think is 'obvious' is that you know how many scum there because you are one of them.

Sky_Paladin · Sun Apr 19, 2015 10:09 pm

I'll believe there is a serial killer in the game if we see two night kills and neither of them are claimed by a town vig or we see a flipped ITP. Until then, I think an alivechihiro lynch could be considered when we get a flip on Monkey.

Incidentally, I'm waiting for MonkeyMan's response, because at the moment - while I'm pretty confident on TSO scum - I think it's hard to go past that post as anything other than MonkeyMan scum slipping out his team numbers. I'd slot TSO/MM/Boonskies into 3 of those at this point.

My main concern is that Jaqen Hghar apparently *knows* there are independent third parties in the game on account of his comment, "The game is not 2D", and my role pm doesn't indicate anything like that.

Can you clarify, Jagen?

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #1162 (isolation #39) » Mon Apr 20, 2015 1:51 am

Does this one care to explain?

I'm kind of drunk atm but basically;
If we see somebody who happens to be scumy claim a hit when there were two hits, then we can lynch that player to see if they are a SK.
OTOH if I see somebody who happens to be totes town claim a hit then I'm gonna go 'Well they are probably town vig'.
If we see two hits and nobody claims them (especially if one of the flips is red) then I think we will have a serial killer.

When Moneky Man said "hay guys I am a sensor and I know three scums voted for Yakko" but MonkeyMan seems to be scummy, then I go "This claim is suspicious. What is the motivation?"
And when Monkeyman said "Also there are five scum so two of them didn't vote for Yakko" the

player

is suspicious. So I want to lynch MM because he is scum first, his claim is suspicious second, and to validate his info as third. Also by convenience he voted for Yakko, so if we lynch an MM, he is in the pool of suspects by his own info. Ne?

So the last question for me, really, is to decide: Do I want to maintain this push on TSO, who seems scummy, or MM, who seems scummy. So I want to see what these two guys respond to the current situation and it's been quite underwhelming so far.

Sky_Paladin · Mon Apr 20, 2015 10:36 am

Your last flash wagon didn't go so well, TSO.

AJ you left me off your list of reads. Am I so unmemorable ; ~;

Sky_Paladin · Mon Apr 20, 2015 11:03 am

The actual reason is that you are suggesting a flash wagon of a random inactive player over responding to the points raised against you and also failed to discuss other existing wagons (eg Monkey) in your "analysis".

The historical reason though is the last time you flash wagoned the doc over Boon/Monkey, and this day phase Monkey seems to be scum.

I don't exclude the possibility that you are scum flash wagoning a buddy either, but I'd rather get your flip over Peregrines to decide that.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #1209 (isolation #42) » Mon Apr 20, 2015 2:42 pm

I'll assume by these votes that all of you disbelieve MonkeyMan's claim.

In which case, why aren't you voting him?

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #1211 (isolation #43) » Mon Apr 20, 2015 3:25 pm

That's the first time I've seen a player counter claim themselves.

I am now okay with a lynch on any of TSO, Monkeyman, boonskies, alivechihiro.
I think there is a good chance these four are scum bussing their fifth afk buddy, Peregrine.
Otherwise, my pick for number five is Drzzzx.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #1213 (isolation #44) » Mon Apr 20, 2015 3:36 pm

Did you forget that you reported three scum on the Yakko wagon?

Did you forget claiming two scum not on the wagon?

Did you forget voting StrangeCouger (not on the wagon)?

Did you forget approving the Peregrine wagon (not on the wagon)?

Your claim doesn't match your activity or vote, and in fact, contradicts it.

That's why I said you counter claimed yourself.

So the only reason I'm not voting you is because I'm trying to fathom why the scum team would show it's hand in this way.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #1226 (isolation #45) » Mon Apr 20, 2015 5:03 pm

OK we're done.

UNVOTE: T S O
VOTE: MonkeyMan

Sky_Paladin · Tue Apr 21, 2015 12:21 pm

To doubters of the MM wagon -

We're lynching Monkey because he

scum-slipped the number of scum players in the game

. He did it twice.

After it was pointed out to him, he retro-actively stated that it was just a guess, and maintained that it was accurate because he's modded games before.

However, we were previously discussing this very day phase about how many scum might be in the game, and MonkeyMan declined to enlighten us at that time.

This puts MM's statement that 'it was just a guess' into question. That's troubling, because we're already questioning his claim, and his claim was the only reason people had voted off of him after his scummy day 1.

Sky_Paladin · Tue Apr 21, 2015 12:43 pm

I actually just came across this post where MonkeyMan speculates that it was a five man team when we were talking about it.

I'm reconsidering.

Sky_Paladin · Tue Apr 21, 2015 12:48 pm

The post where I believe MonkeyMan scum slipped is here, when MonkeyMan attempted to justify his vote off of the Yakko-pool.

Oh right, sorry. Obviously, there are two scum not on the Yakko wagon. Stranger Coug is one of them, likely.

At this point, it doesn't look like Monkey is guessing. To me it looks like *he knows*. When pressed, his follow up was:

There are three scum on the Yakko wagon and two scum not on it, what's illogical about voting off the Yakko wagon? Scum hunting is scum hunting.

Which is really boneheaded and again has him sticking to his scum team number as a precept of his vote on Elyse iirc.

In his next post he says it was basically a guess.

I'll admit this is not as slam dunk as I thought it was.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #1360 (isolation #49) » Wed Apr 22, 2015 4:46 pm

TSO, if we lynch Peregrine and he flips town, what would you say?

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #1362 (isolation #50) » Wed Apr 22, 2015 5:03 pm

I don't think he's town. I'm also pretty sure TSO isn't either. But IMO he's all but claiming a confirm guilty on Peregrine and I kind of want to work out if that's legit or not.

I'm also a bit wary because I'm not sure if I'm conf-bias on Monkey. Earlier I thought I had a clear scum slip from him about the number of players. I had missed his post earlier where he speculated there was five so now I'm unsure if it's something I should be pushing or not.

Basically I want to know if TSO is going to provide any basis for a lynch Peregrine other than it's not TSO.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #1431 (isolation #51) » Sat Apr 25, 2015 7:04 am

Away for the weekend, sorry. Back in two days.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #1500 (isolation #52) » Mon Apr 27, 2015 2:51 am

Just passing by so I skimmed the thread. I won't be back properly before deadline.

I will reiterate the reason for seeing TSO as scum.
start middle end

Main points being that TSO failed to explain why he believed Sky/Delta/Kthx were scum, and then when pressured, immediately started a counterwagon on PeregrineV instead of clarifying/validating his content.

I will underscore that I

also

found TSO's push for Peregrine in response to pressure as a scum motivated action. I asked him to clarify if he had a role-based reason for believing in scum!Peregrine. To my understanding, he does not. Additionally, Peregrine was not amongst the voters on the Yakko wagon so is a sub-optimal lynch and therefore an explanation was required. None was forthcoming to my recollection.

UNVOTE: Monkeyman
VOTE: TSO

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #1504 (isolation #53) » Mon Apr 27, 2015 3:13 am

Seeing as you're here, mind checking out my TSO case, on this exact page right at the top, and letting me know on a scale of one to terrible what you think?

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #1569 (isolation #54) » Thu Apr 30, 2015 3:56 pm

I'm waiting for a report.

Kthx you are not confirmed town and we do not colour ourselves green on VCA. Do your numbers again.

@Kthx

Please explain why you were happy to hammer Yakko, but not hammer TSO.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #1571 (isolation #55) » Thu Apr 30, 2015 4:00 pm

As tool for explaining 'why town should do xyz', you need to use body of knowledge available to town. Otherwise I could do exactly the same thing and colour myself green and provide the same figures, which means, it's useless as a decision making tool.

Only colour players green who are actually confirmed town. Such is the meta, and thus is the way of things. Do not argue.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #1572 (isolation #56) » Thu Apr 30, 2015 4:02 pm

In particular this:

-Elyse has a very high chance at being scum seeing as 4 of the 7 votes on her at the end of D2 are town and she was almost the lynch for D2 till the huge ass push on TSO interrupted it.
-TSO has a very high chance at being town due to the above.

Is highly questionable, as Kthx was one of the players who elected not to hammer TSO. The other was AJ who flipped town. If we'd lynched TSO yesterday and got a town/scum flip, we'd been in a position to evaluate Elyse.

Kthx failing to hammer and yet AJ died (who was a more questionable player in my eyes) is highly, highly, highly suspicious.

I would like to see Madman's case because if I recall this is the second time a player in this game has urged for a flashwagon on me without explanation, and the fourth flashwagon being asked for in the game so far.

Seriously, enough with the flash wagons.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #1575 (isolation #57) » Thu Apr 30, 2015 4:14 pm

It's fine to town read yourself as the basis for a case on somebody else. It is not fine to hand out association town reads because you are town clearing yourself. To whit:

-Elyse has a very high chance at being scum seeing as 4 of the 7 votes on her at the end of D2 are town and she was almost the lynch for D2 till the huge ass push on TSO interrupted it.
-TSO has a very high chance at being town due to the above.

Now, I think an Elyse wagon is the smart move today but IF she comes in with some damning tracker info and we decide to give the chance that TSO and Elyse was TvT and believe for the day that scum just didn't consolidate in time

At some point, Kthx has just assumed that TSO is town. Did you see that magic handwave? And that's why you don't colour yourself green on a VCA. Town doesn't know. So you can't use it as a basis for decision making.

Golden rule of mafia: Don't hand out arbitrary town reads. Explain them.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #1576 (isolation #58) » Thu Apr 30, 2015 4:15 pm

VOTE: Kthxbye

I'll start with this but I expect we'll be lynching one of Elyse or TSO today.

Sky_Paladin · Fri May 01, 2015 12:47 pm

I would have expected scum Elyse to claim "sorry I was roleblocked".

We are not lynching Elyse today. She has one claimed shot left.
Therefore we let her take her shot and lynch her in the next day phase to validate her info

if necessary

.
Today we lynch Ktxh as that is alignment indicative for TSO and Elyse.

I could also get behind a TSO lynch as that is alignment indicative of Ktxh and Elyse.

Sky_Paladin · Fri May 01, 2015 12:51 pm

I appreciate it's tempting to sheep the reads of a dead townie, but AJ was vt so she didn't actually know Jack. Use your own brains and scum hunt. If you want to quote her list then first consider her reasoning and assess if it is valid.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #1685 (isolation #61) » Fri May 01, 2015 2:32 pm

TSO

Uniting this town is hard enough as it is without people like you actively disrupting the process.

This has nothing to do with scum hunting and everything to do with character assassination. Explain.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #1741 (isolation #62) » Sun May 03, 2015 5:50 am

There are no such things as town slips since as scum I frequently fake them, and I expect others are capable of doing the same. I advise you to ignore them and instead use vote analysis, motivation investigation, and questioning to find good lynch options.

Kthxbye

Anyone surprised? In case you can't see what's plain as day, 4 of the eligible 9 people on the Yakko wagon (reminder: 3 of the 9 are scum) are currently voting me for reasons like:

There is a roughly equal split of 35-40% of players who did NOT vote for Yakko voting Elyse/TSO/Kthx, so we can't magically handwave a wagon as scum driven.

The reason I'm voting you is because:
1 - You lynched the doctor on day 1. There's basically no better role in the game, so the decision not to hammer after the best role was already gone was terrible/scum.
2 - You failed to lynch a player you had been scum reading.
3 - You failed to lynch, period.

There is no reason for Kthx failing to hammer day 2 except that he didn't want to hammer a scum buddy so that's why I'm up for a Kthx or TSO lynch today.

We're not lynching Elyse this day phase because she's claimed tracker with one more shot; and I presume a town role would have investigated her last night. I'm completely fine with lynching her in day 4 if a flip of TSO or Kthx comes up town, once she's used her shots and we can then confirm their validity. EG if she starts day 4 with "Confirm guilty on (player x)" I'm lynching her first to be able to trust her.

TSO

I am trying to bring people together and you and Coug, if you are town, are helping the scum prevent this. It is really as simple as that.

I am also trying to bring people together, admittedly for the purpose of killing you, whom I believe to be scum. This is why you feel we are at cross-purposes.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #1754 (isolation #63) » Sun May 03, 2015 1:22 pm

A town flip of TSO would basically invalidate why I think Ktxh is auto-scum. It would also implicate Elyse.
However, if TSO flips scum we basically have to lynch Kthx outside of hard role info to say otherwise.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #1799 (isolation #64) » Tue May 05, 2015 6:40 am

That doesn't pass muster. If that was the case, then Aunt J would be scum too.

AJ had TSO as a town read, Kthx had TSO as a scum read.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #1802 (isolation #65) » Tue May 05, 2015 7:12 am

@Kthx

You asked us if we had a town flip on TSO, would it clear your name.

I haven't seen you put forward anything further after this.

It occurred to me that lynching Kthx for failing to lynch TSO is really just a way of saying, we're angry because he didn't hammer the town majority scum read.

However, we should get a lynch on TSO first to actually establish if what we want to believe - that scum!Kthx refused to hammer scum!TSO - is true. That's the most logical solution that I thought of when I said, "We are probably going to lynch one of TSO or Elyse today, but I'll vote Kthx for now." I wanted to know if Kthx was protecting TSO or if it was just my imagination. When I saw Kthx ask the question, I thought, ah, he is coming to the right of it now. However he seems to have steered away and so I have to conclude, it's likely he is protecting TSO.

So there's a relationship between those two. Maybe it's scum, maybe it's neighbours, maybe it's something else. Conversely, TSO's content this game has mainly been of the bullying/arrogance, whereas Kthx has made some effort to analyse wagons and clear his name. TSO did nothing except continue to trumpet "Lynch Elyse", "flashwagon (player x)", "Don't listen to people who disagree with me."

On the balance, I think it's likely both TSO and Kthx are scum, but Kthx has more content than TSO, and we can easily evaluate the alignments of Elyse and Kthx by getting a flip on TSO.

Therefore I conclude TSO has to die this phase. Well to be honest, he should have died last phase, but by flipping him now we can get a lot more information, so perhaps it's not such an ill wind after all.

UNVOTE: Kthx
VOTE: TSO

For those of you who want a reminder, my initial case on TSO was outlined here, here and here.

@TSO

1755

Summarise why you think I'm scum again?

Mainly because of your distancing from a flash wagon that you started, and interactions with MonkeyMan/Boon that I see as scummy.
There was attempts to flashwagon Peregrine and somebody else also iirc.
Secondarily, your response to pressure and fairly basic questions about your motivation was to dodge and poke at somebody else.
I see evasiveness and refusing to be accountable as scum actions.

Finally, your attitude this game seems to be 'how dare you question me' and one of presumed authority, and being a young rebellious sort, I have to question and challenge the authority.

Perhaps you could summarise why you think Elyse is scum.

Sky_Paladin · Wed May 06, 2015 11:22 am

That's because everybody is waiting for you to explain why Elyse is scum.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #1903 (isolation #67) » Thu May 07, 2015 5:21 pm

@Elyse

Kthx is scum. If you think it's me and not him, then fine. I'm willing to compromise on Boon because when I do eventually flip town, it will at least implicate the actual scum.

Things like this make me question whether I'd rather lynch you.

The counter wagon to presumed town!Elyse was TSO. You should be willing to compromise lynch TSO. There's been no real pressure to Boon so please explain your reason for saying this.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #1962 (isolation #68) » Sat May 09, 2015 4:34 am

It's that time of phase again, kids! It's Sky's "Let's see who the wagon hoppers are!" time!

Yaaaay!!

This time we have some flips to consider. I'll also color anybody implicated by MonkeyMan's report orange for the sake of extra incrimination.

For the sake of 'wagon', I consider the point that 4 votes have accrued on a single player as the start of possibly scum-motivated wagoning, and thus the most interesting to review.

So just as a reminder, here's everybody on the Yakko wagon on day 1 when Yakko went blasting off to space:

Klingoncelt, T S O, alivechihiro, MonkeyMan576, Jaqen Hghar, Boonskiies, Elyse, massive, DeltaWave, Sky_Paladin, Kthxbye

It's long so spoilers for your sanity.

Spoiler:

Post 100 - last tally before wagons appeared.

Sky_Paladin(2): Kthx,
hi im Yakko

ZZZX (2):
MonkeyMan576
,
massive

Aunt Jemina
(2): StrangerCoug, PeregrineV
Kthx (2): Ankimius ,
I am Innocent,

inte (1):
Elyse

PeregrineV (1): ZZZX
Ankimius (1):
Sky_Paladin

DeltaWave (1): inte
hi im Yakko (1): Fresh
StrangerCoug (1): Garmr
Jaqen Hghar (1):
T S O

massive (1):
Boonskiies

T S O (1):
alivechihiro

Wagon number 1 - Strange Cougar

StrangerCoug (5):
DeltaWave
, Fresh, Ankamius,
Boonskiies, MonkeyMan576

Boonskiies (3):
Elyse, T S O
, StrangerCoug
Elyse (2):
Aunt Jemina, I Am Innocent

Sky_Paladin (2):
Kthxbye
, PeregrineV
I Am Innocent (1):
massive

alivechihiro (1):
Jaqen Hghar

T S O (1): inte
Klingoncelt (1): ZZZX
ZZZX (1):
Klingoncelt

Jaqen Hghar (1):
alivechihiro

Ankamius (1): Garmr
MonkeyMan576 (1):
hi im Yakko

Wagon number 3 - Boonskies

Boonskiies (6):
Elyse, T S O,
StrangerCoug,
Aunt Jemina
, Ankamius,
MonkeyMan576

alivechihiro (2): Jaqen Hghar, Sky_Paladin
Jaqen Hghar (2):
alivechihiro, DeltaWave

MonkeyMan576 (2):
hi im Yakko,

Boonskiies

I Am Innocent (1):
massive

T S O (1): inte
Klingoncelt (1): ZZZX
ZZZX (1):
Klingoncelt

StrangerCoug (1): Fresh
Ankamius (1): Garmr
Elyse (1):
I Am Innocent

Sky_Paladin (1): PeregrineV

Next tally - wagons hold!

Boonskiies (5):
Elyse
, StrangerCoug,
Aunt Jemina
, Ankamius,
MonkeyMan576

MonkeyMan576 (3):
hi im Yakko
,
Sky_Paladin, Boonskiies

Jaqen Hghar (2):
alivechihiro, DeltaWave

Elyse (2):
I Am Innocent
,
T S O

I Am Innocent (1):
massive

alivechihiro (1):
Jaqen Hghar

T S O (1): inte
Klingoncelt (1): ZZZX
ZZZX (1):
Klingoncelt

StrangerCoug (1): Fresh
Ankamius (1): Garmr
Sky_Paladin (1): PeregrineV

Next tally - MonkeyMan wagon appears.

Boonskiies (4):
Elyse
, StrangerCoug,
Aunt Jemina
,
MonkeyMan576

MonkeyMan576 (3):
hi im Yakko
,
Sky_Paladin, Boonskiies

hi im Yakko (2):
Klingoncelt, T S O

Aunt Jemina (2):
Kthxbye
, Ankamius
Jaqen Hghar (2):
alivechihiro, DeltaWave

I Am Innocent (1):
massive

alivechihiro (1):
Jaqen Hghar

T S O (1): inte
Klingoncelt (1): ZZZX
StrangerCoug (1): Fresh
Ankamius (1): Garmr
Elyse (1):
I Am Innocent

Sky_Paladin (1): PeregrineV

Next tally - Yakko wagon emerges.

hi im Yakko (5):
Klingoncelt, T S O, alivechihiro, MonkeyMan576, Jaqen Hghar

Boonskiies (3):
Elyse
, StrangerCoug,
Aunt Jemina

MonkeyMan576 (3):
hi im Yakko
,
Sky_Paladin, Boonskiies

I Am Innocent (1):
massive

T S O (1): inte
Klingoncelt (1): ZZZX
StrangerCoug (1): Fresh
Aunt Jemina (1): Ankamius
Jaqen Hghar (1):
Kthxbye

Ankamius (1): Garmr
Elyse (1):
I Am Innocent

Sky_Paladin (1): PeregrineV

Phase end and hammer -

hi im Yakko (11):
Klingoncelt, T S O, alivechihiro, MonkeyMan576, Jaqen Hghar, Boonskiies, Elyse, massive, DeltaWave, Sky_Paladin, Kthxbye

StrangerCoug (4): Fresh, Garmr,
I Am Innocent
, Ankamius
Boonskiies (2): StrangerCoug,
Aunt Jemina

T S O (1): inte
Klingoncelt (1): ZZZX
MonkeyMan576 (1):
hi im Yakko

Sky_Paladin (1): PeregrineV

Great. Day 2.

The first vote count of the day already had a wagon.

Elyse (4):
Aunt Jemina
, Garmr,
MonkeyMan576, Kthxbye

Boonskiies (1):
Elyse

DeltaWave (1): Fresh

Second vote count of the day, things have not really changed yet.

Elyse (4):
Aunt Jemina
, Garmr,
MonkeyMan576, Kthxbye

Boonskiies (2):
Elyse
, StrangerCoug
Kthxbye (1):
Jaqen Hghar

Klingoncelt (1):
massive

DeltaWave (1): Fresh

Third vote count

Elyse (3):
Aunt Jemina
, Garmr,
MonkeyMan576

Kthxbye (2):
Jaqen Hghar, DeltaWave

Boonskiies (2):
Elyse
, StrangerCoug
DeltaWave (2): Fresh,
Kthxbye

Klingoncelt (1):
massive

Jaqen Hghar (1):
alivechihiro

Fourth vote count

Elyse (3):
Aunt Jemina
, Garmr,
MonkeyMan576

DeltaWave (3): Fresh,
Kthxbye, massive

Kthxbye (2):
Jaqen Hghar, DeltaWave

Boonskiies (2):
Elyse
, StrangerCoug
Jaqen Hghar (1):
alivechihiro

The fifth and sixth vote counts are unchanged from the fourth count.

Seventh vote count

Elyse (3):
Aunt Jemina,
Garmr,
MonkeyMan576

Boonskiies (3):
Elyse
, StrangerCoug,
Sky_Paladin

DeltaWave (3): Fresh,
Kthxbye, massive

Kthxbye (2):
Jaqen Hghar, DeltaWave

Jaqen Hghar (1):
alivechihiro

Eight vote count - finally some activity.

T S O (6):
Sky_Paladin, Kthxbye, alivechihiro, Elyse
, Fresh, StrangerCoug
Kthxbye (2):
Jaqen Hghar, DeltaWave

StrangerCoug (2):
T S O, MonkeyMan576

Elyse (2):
Aunt Jemina
, Garmr
DeltaWave (1):
massive

Ninth vote count

T S O (7):
Sky_Paladin, Kthxbye, alivechihiro
,
Elyse
, Fresh, StrangerCoug, ZZZX
alivechihiro (3):
Jaqen Hghar
, Ankamius, inte
StrangerCoug (2):
T S O, MonkeyMan576

Elyse (2):
Aunt Jemina
, Garmr
Kthxbye (1):
DeltaWave

DeltaWave (1):
massive

Tenth vote count and major wagon change

MonkeyMan576 (4):
Klingoncelt, Sky_Paladin
, Fresh, StrangerCoug
alivechihiro (3):
Jaqen Hghar
, Ankamius, inte
Elyse (3):
Aunt Jemina
, Garmr,
MonkeyMan576

T S O (3):
Elyse
, ZZZX, PeregrineV
PeregrineV (2):
alivechihiro, Boonskiies

StrangerCoug (1):
T S O

Kthxbye (1):
DeltaWave

DeltaWave (1):
massive

Eleventh vote count

Klingoncelt (3):
massive
, inte,
MonkeyMan576

PeregrineV (3):
alivechihiro, Boonskiies, T S O

T S O (3):
Elyse
, ZZZX, PeregrineV
MonkeyMan576 (2):
Sky_Paladin
, StrangerCoug
Kthxbye (2):
DeltaWave, Jaqen Hghar

Elyse (2):
Aunt Jemina
, Garmr
alivechihiro (1): Ankamius
DeltaWave (1):
Kthxbye

Ugh twelth vote count.

T S O (4):
Elyse
, ZZZX, PeregrineV, StrangerCoug
Elyse (4):
Aunt Jemina
, Garmr,
Klingoncelt,Jaqen Hghar

Klingoncelt (3):
massive
, inte,
MonkeyMan576

PeregrineV (3):
alivechihiro, Boonskiies, T S O

Kthxbye (1):
DeltaWave

alivechihiro (1): Ankamius
Jaqen Hghar (1): Fresh
MonkeyMan576 (1): Sky_
Paladin

DeltaWave (1):
Kthxbye

Thirteen T__T

Elyse (6):
Aunt Jemina
, Garmr,
Klingoncelt, Kthxbye, MonkeyMan576, Boonskiies

T S O (4):
Elyse
, ZZZX, PeregrineV, StrangerCoug
Kthxbye (3):
DeltaWave
,
RationalMadman, Jaqen Hghar

Klingoncelt (2):
massive
, inte
Jaqen Hghar (1): Fresh
MonkeyMan576 (1):
Sky_Paladin

PeregrineV (1):
T S O

RationalMadman (1): Ankamius

This vote bears special note - we had four orange voters suddenly shift on to Elyse when previously she only had AJ and Garmr voting for her.

The Elyse wagon definitely appeared as a counter wagon to somebody - MonkeyMan or TSO - and these voters (KlingonCelt, Kthxbye, MonkeyMan, Boonskies) are most suspicious for it.

The solid block of orange voting for Kthx makes a Kthx flip more interesting than I remembered.

Second last tally

Elyse (8):
Aunt Jemina
, Garmr,
Klingoncelt, Kthxbye, MonkeyMan576, Boonskiies, Ankamius,Jaqen Hghar

T S O (6):
Elyse
, ZZZX, PeregrineV, StrangerCoug,
Sky_Paladin
, Fresh
Kthxbye (2):
DeltaWave, RationalMadman,

Klingoncelt (2):
massive
, inte
PeregrineV (1):
T S O

WOW LOOK AT ALL THOSE ORANGE NAMES VOTING FOR ELYSE.

Spoiler:

***

Spoiler:

TL;DR

MonkeyMan's info basically amounts to 'Elyse/StrangeCougar confirmed town'.
Yeah I'm still down for a TSO lynch, and

you should be too

.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #1963 (isolation #69) » Sat May 09, 2015 4:35 am

The only thing I can see is that Sky is fluff posting (completely and obvious bullshit)

You wound me ;___;

Sky_Paladin · Sun May 10, 2015 10:17 pm

I'll remind Kthxbye that few players want to vote Elyse, some people want to vote TSO, and plenty of people want to vote Kthxbye. So if you want to make it a choice between Elyse or Kthxbye, Kthxbye is going to lose.

The same wagon analysis that suggested that Kthx was town also suggests that Elyse is town, and that TSO is scum. This is in addition to TSO's encouragement of wagons and turning on players that vote with the wagon, and general arrogant/abrasiveness.

Sky_Paladin · Mon May 11, 2015 12:29 pm

Elyse has a 5.8% chance to hit the scum player making the nightkill.

Interesting.

On what do you base this on?

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #2067 (isolation #72) » Mon May 11, 2015 3:49 pm

My argument is that TSO and kthx are shady as fuck for the end of the day when the NL went through.

Basically this. TSO was at L-1. Why wasn't he hammered by scum, if he was town? It went to a no-lynch.

Kthx is implicated both ways (if TSO is town, Kthx could be scum for not wanting to look bad for hammering a second town, if TSO is scum, Kthx could be scum for not wanting to hammer his scum buddy) which is why Kthx is not the optimal lynch. That is, after all, why we started the day with a Kthx wagon and may yet go back there.

I don't get the Elyse suspicion at all, and TSO has yet to supplied a reasoning behind any of his repeated pushes on Yakko/Elyse/Peregrine/StrangeCougar/Anybody-I've-missed.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #2155 (isolation #73) » Wed May 13, 2015 3:08 pm

Please vote TSO instead of continuing to fill this thread with shitposts stroking his ego.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #2157 (isolation #74) » Wed May 13, 2015 3:28 pm

Hey guys, I went over TSO's iso to see if I could see this much vaunted case that he keeps referring to when asked.

But TSO never made a case on Elyse. I could find one thing on day 1 and one thing on day 2.

On day 1, this in 119

I'm not sure I like Elyse this game - it's like she's trying to emulate her usual towngame, but it's a little off.

On day 2, this:
Flashwagon on Elyse

Today, we sheep Jemima. Sorry. That's what's happening. Her reads - my reads - are right on the money. I wanted PV first, she wanted Elyse first. She's dead, so we'll run with Elyse.

The rest of the time, TSO has been encouraging flash wagons (including on Peregrine day 2, who was not amongst the Yakko wagon), threatening and insulting players who don't agree with him.

His content this game is mainly that of character assassination and personal attacks.

His flip will give us alignment information on Kthx and Elyse, as well as giving Elyse one more turn to bring information to the team if she is town.

He also has a fairly disruptive and abusive impact on the game, and I wouldn't mind removing him just so we can focus on something that's not him for a change.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #2158 (isolation #75) » Wed May 13, 2015 3:29 pm

TSO isn't happening.

If you want a TSO lynch, then vote him. That's how it happens.

Elyse needs to abandon you for self-preservation.

What the hell is this?

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #2166 (isolation #76) » Wed May 13, 2015 4:35 pm

We've had one night kill for night 1 and night 2. I highly doubt there are two scum teams, or a serial killer.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #2168 (isolation #77) » Wed May 13, 2015 4:55 pm

Well I guess there could be a lot of roleblockers.

By the way, although I'd prefer a TSO flip, I would vote Elyse if necessary to secure a lynch. I do not want a repeat of yesterday.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #2175 (isolation #78) » Wed May 13, 2015 8:18 pm

I don't consider your wagon 'bad', I just wonder why you are arguing strongly for a Kthxbye/TSO lynch yet voting for their counterwagon - Elyse.

Thoughts?

Sky_Paladin · Thu May 14, 2015 10:51 am

There are two whole days in the phase left. Stop pushing for flash wagons and quick hammers.

Sky_Paladin · Thu May 14, 2015 12:12 pm

Can you tell me what stunning insights are going to occur in these two days, except you being repeatedly wrong?

Wellllllllllll mainly I'm suspicious of you tunneling on Elyse. If she flips scum, I'm mindful of her repeated claims of "Nobody is bussing me" and basically no real attempt to defend herself or credibly scumhunt. Can we at least agree on that point? So if she does flip scum, part of me will strongly consider if you weren't bussing Elyse the whole time. IMO this can be cleared up if you are still alive in the next day phase after Elyse flipped scum, then I can look forward to a shitty day 4. It happens. Players can be wrong.

So my main reason for applying pressure to you was actually because I think you are probably scum after the conclusion of day 1/day 2, and the secondary reason is because I wanted to see a valid reason for you to pressure Elyse like you have been doing. I've seen you throw out a lot of accusations on random players and attempt to start flash wagons. To me, that looks like somebody who just wants to throw mud and see what sticks. When nobody jumped on a wagon with you, you quickly switched to another one. Maybe that's a valid scum hunting tactic and I should meta dive your other games to see if so, but it's not my first time seeing it and when I have seen it it's been from scum. Maybe you are the special chosen one that is different and if so I'll reflect on this later in the game/in the graveyard.

Anyway your post - I'm going to post this now because L-1 and surprise hammers can happen mid-wall.

Sky_Paladin · Thu May 14, 2015 12:42 pm

So point 1

Hey guys, I went over TSO's iso to see if I could see this much vaunted case that he keeps referring to when asked.

I don't actually remember doing this? But I'm sure you know best, after all.

Every time you said "Go read my ISO" or some form of "Check my posts" without actually linking your said case, you were implying that there was some kind of basis for your vote and scum read.

It wasn't until late in day 3 that you started actually providing a reason, perhaps as a result of my repeated requests for you to do so.

Example:
When I asked you about what reason you had to flashwagon Peregrine, you said

They're all in my ISO. It's your choice to look

Upon review, this was a flashwagon attempt, that you later revisited after AJ started scum reading Peregrine. However, you then backed this up somewhat with this explanation of your night 1 death meta in regards to Peregrine being scum. So while I consider this a case based on some fairly...selective...logic, I can at least see how town could come to this conclusion.

In 2070 you finally responded to my repeated requests for you to outline why you believe Elyse was scum.

Paladin, try reading the fucking game if you don't think I've supplied reasons for Elyse-scum. Seriously. Get off your shitwagon with scum and do something positive for the first time in the game.

So, I read your ISO. Your stated reasons for day 1/day 2 were iirc 'mystery flashwagon' and 'lets trust ghost-AJ'. Late day 3 you started posting stuff - the first/only post I would consider actually outlying why you specifically think Elyse could be scum (instead of leaning on AJ) was 2029. You keep quoting this same post whenever you are asked to explain your scum read.

I am having trouble reconciling this because you brought this post up as 'evidence' after you had already seemingly come to a conclusion on Elyse. This is post-decision justification and doesn't clearly align with Elyse's day 1/day 2 activity, which, if I was making a case on somebody, is what I would go back to and check.

To be fair there are other fairly active lurking players like ZZZX who have what feels to be similar content to Elyse that I would specifically like to lynch also. It's very hard to get a lynch on somebody who just doesn't post. So don't get me wrong. I can see a scenario for scum!Elyse. And I can also see a scenario for scum!TSO.

Do you actually have something relevant to say about my Peregrine push? If you don't, then sit down.

What I said was:

TSO has been encouraging flash wagons (including on Peregrine day 2, who was not amongst the Yakko wagon)

I'm dubious of anybody pushing for a lynch that is not on the MonkeyMan-info-Yakko wagon. You yourself highlighted it iirc that we're not lynching out of that pool today, yet Peregrine didn't vote Yakko. That was my point.

Sigh, nasty doesn't equal scum, sigh, sigh.

It doesn't!
When a player is using attacks against the player, either by discrediting them (Your frequent posts of "just ignore player x") or directly insulting them, that's an attempt to influence town thinking using logical fallacies. Town can misdirect town by accident either because they're very confident or just plain wrong. Scum can misdirect town but they're doing it deliberately. Identifying the difference is difficult.
Therefore, I'm especially suspicious of players who use unnecessary vitriol or are just generally abrasive in general.

Eg from your exact post I am quoting from:

Why the fuck are you posting this nonsense?

Please think about what you are posting before you post rubbish.

Sigh, sigh, sigh.

That's a lot of character assassination in just one post. Or if one wanted to be more cynical, non-content in just one post.

cut

Please

I'm begging you

Don't let me die

AtE is also like my biggest red flag though so ummmmmmmmmmm

Sky_Paladin · Thu May 14, 2015 12:48 pm

TSO

So, let me get this straight: You think I am scum, pushing Elyse, but if Elyse does happen to flip scum, I could be scum anyway?

I don't think you are

necessarily

scum. If Elyse flips red, I will review her wagon and see which votes (if any) I think are bussing. She said, what, three times maybe, about her buddies not bussing her. So if she flips red of course I'm going to disregard that as some kind of misdirection.

We would be lynching Elyse basically because of your pressure and effort day 1/day 2. So many players would think "Well that makes TSO confirmed town." And scum tend to want to shoot 'confirmed town', pseudo or otherwise.

So if you're still here day 4, and Elyse flipped red, the longer you don't die the more suspicious I become. But I wouldn't be pushing for your lynch in the next day phase, no. I'd accept - at least initially - that I was wrong and look elsewhere.

Sky_Paladin · Thu May 14, 2015 12:49 pm

Intent to hammer

Elyse, please provide this meta that TSO is asking you for. If you don't want to die, please show us you have some reason to live.

Cut by Ank saying the same thing.

Sky_Paladin · Thu May 14, 2015 12:52 pm

So if you're still here day 4, and Elyse flipped red, the longer you don't die the more suspicious
I
you become.

I rewrote this sentence mid thought and got the pronouns back to front x__x this is what I get for posting before coffee.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #2229 (isolation #85) » Mon May 18, 2015 5:08 am

I completely agree.
For context, this delicious crumb:
so I'm thinking JH is needing to be figured out asap.

Also I with Kthx AND an Elyse flip TSO is like super town and I'm just plain fucking wrong. OK. That sucks.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #2307 (isolation #86) » Tue May 19, 2015 4:46 am

Jagen, hypothetically, could you see any reason for scum to kill Kthxbye? Because that's the only reason I could envision you not being scum. We assumed he died because he hid behind you.

The main issue with that is this seems to be an enormous coincidence. The first time we see two night deaths and the hider dies? That's unlucky.

I can only see two other ways this could have happened.
1 - Town vig, upon seeing Elyse scum, for some reason decided to shoot Kthx.
2 - Scum got an extra shot and instead of killing TSO decided to kill Kthx and Ank.

???

Can you give a reason?

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #2308 (isolation #87) » Tue May 19, 2015 4:48 am

To be clear, I find it really unlikely for scum to have shot Kthx over higher profile targets, and this is the first time we've seen two night deaths. So either scum/town got an extra shot or...there's no other solution I can see except Jagen!scum.

I don't see scum raising their hand to own up to the shot, but if you are a vig and have used all your ammo it's probably worth saying so to stop the lynch.

Sky_Paladin · Wed May 20, 2015 11:15 am

In the darkest hours of the 41st millenium, suffer not the scum to live.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #2367 (isolation #89) » Thu May 21, 2015 2:06 am

I play Dark Angel Space Marines.

VOTE: Jagen Haqar

Suffer not the scum to live.

Sky_Paladin · Sun May 24, 2015 10:05 pm

I think we should find the last scum on the Yakko wagon. I'll be around tomorrow to look at wagons/re-read Elyse and Jagen Haqar.

Sky_Paladin · Tue May 26, 2015 10:54 am

I dunno, it seemed pretty likely Elyse was being lynched regardless of my efforts to lynch TSO >_>; if it were me, I'd be bussing at any chance. I'm inclined to vote Peregrine or Massive because those were TSO's last scum picks iirc and his reads were great, mine were awful. I'd prefer to lynch from the Yakko wagon still. I'm reviewing the wagons next.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #2405 (isolation #92) » Tue May 26, 2015 6:31 pm

OK well let's look at these tallies.

Day 1:
hi im Yakko (11):

Klingoncelt

,

T S O

,

alivechihiro (Replaced by Madman), MonkeyMan576

,

Jaqen Hghar

,

Boonskiies

,

Elyse

,

massive, DeltaWave (Replaced by TWIE), Sky_Paladin

,

Kthxbye

StrangerCoug (4): Fresh, Garmr, I Am Innocent, Ankamius
Boonskiies (2): StrangerCoug, Aunt Jemina
T S O (1): inte
Klingoncelt (1): ZZZX
MonkeyMan576 (1): hi im Yakko
Sky_Paladin (1): PeregrineV

That coloured line reminds me so badly of skittles @__@;;

Day 2:
T S O (9):

Elyse

, ZZZX, PeregrineV, StrangerCoug,

Sky_Paladin

, Fresh,

RationalMadman

,

massive

,

Jaqen Hghar

Elyse (7): Aunt Jemina, Garmr,

Klingoncelt

,

Kthxbye

,

MonkeyMan576, Boonskiies

, Ankamius
Kthxbye (1):

TWIE

Klingoncelt (1): inte
PeregrineV (1):

T S O

Day 3:
Elyse (10): Garmr,

Boonskiies

, StrangerCoug, inte,

T S O, Kthxbye

,

Klingoncelt

,

MonkeyMan576

, Fresh,

Jaqen Hghar

RationalMadman (3): Ankamius, PeregrineV,

TheWayItEnds

Klingoncelt (2):

massive, RationalMadman

T S O (2):

Sky_Paladin

,

Elyse

PeregrineV (1): ZZZX

Orange players critically on the TSO wagon and not on the Elyse wagon are myself, RationalMadman, and massive, and we should probably lynch there first.

I'm burned out from ISO'ing Jagen. I really didn't find anything useful except he mentions me a lot so, in hindsight, that looks kind of bad.

I think we should probably lynch amongst Sky/Madman/Massive for this phase, and since TSO was right about....probably everything...I'll probably go there for now. Gonna ISO Massive next and see if I see something to change my mind.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #2414 (isolation #93) » Wed May 27, 2015 1:20 pm

I'm moving Sky into consideration now as after pushing TSO so hard, he came up town and you give off being a bit eager to sheep his reads now.

It's not just that. I was pushing TSO

and

Kthxbye, who both flipped town. I'm also one of the Yakko voters, and basically the only player who was pushing MonkeyMan as scum when he claimed his info, which is looking increasingly legit.
So if I wasn't me, I'd be voting me too.

By way of defence, I didn't ever say that I was town reading Elyse - I was just scum reading TSO, because although he was ultimately right, the way he got his lynch looked like textbook scum to me, all the way up until Elyse flipped. And turns out basically all my reads were wrong, including earlier thinking Jagen was town (not sure if I ever said that) for his pressure on Alive Chihiro. So I'm gonna sheep ghost-TSO for today over my own impulsiveness, unless my read of Massive comes out with a glowing town read.

TBH I'm wondering why I haven't already got a bunch of votes. I think I'm probably the easiest mislynch.

Sky_Paladin · Fri May 29, 2015 10:59 am

Going VLA until Monday.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #2463 (isolation #95) » Sun May 31, 2015 1:48 am

I basically agree with what MonkeyMan just said, plus partial sheep of TSO from previous.

I completely agree that we should lynch from amongst the Yakko voters (including myself) because the number of confirmed town we can get is too good to ignore.

VOTE: Massive

I'll start here and reflect/review when I get up tomorrow. Sorry I've been away for so long, but I'm back in town now!

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #2468 (isolation #96) » Sun May 31, 2015 4:04 pm

ISO of Massive.

I'm just gonna flag posts that look questionable to me and see what comes up.

Here Massive questions I Am Innocent.

I'm curious, I Am Innocent, how nothing changed your reads between 194 (your vote on Elyse and namedropping of me) and 275 (continue namedropping). In between those two posts was the entire "half the players are scum" discussion, the dissolution of the Yakko wagon, Boons' nonsensical vote which slipped under the radar, and at least one replacement. You yourself even needed to be prodded in that time. I'm beginning to think you didn't actually read those pages, saw Jagen's vig post when you came in, and knowing that it would be the topic of conversation, decided to quickly get your two cents in. That says to me you don't actually care about hunting scum.

My main issue with this is that Massive is soft-defending two players that flipped scum (Elyse/Jagen).

Jagen himself argued with Innocent in here, in particular quoting a section where I am Innocent said that 'a vig on Massive or Elyse would have been better'. Interestingly, Jagen isn't pushing for votes on Innocent at this point, he's self-defending.

When Innocent questions Massive over why he skipped sections of Innocent's ISO as a basis for his vote in the first link I gave, Massive sidesteps the question entirely.
338

Why do you think I am ignoring sections? Don't you think if I was ignoring sections (as you are) that I would find myself scummy?

Elyse then immediately pipes up with, "You are right that massive has also missed those sections but his initial point still stands. It just applies to both of you."

After AliveChihiro also questions massive, Jagen defends Massive =23043#p6704990]here over the point.

Massive then backs away from his own comment in 367 by saying it was just supposed to be a 'smart-ass comment'.

There's a couple of non-content posts, Massive says he wants to sheep me but I haven't voted, then another questionable interaction.
In 577, Massive responds to IAI and DeltaWave.

Innocent states that 'Massive has done nothing to change my scum read on him earlier', which is completely viable, since Massive had backed away from his own defence and essentially left himself open. Instead of defending himself, Massive snidely says

Thanks for letting us know. Maybe now you can mention what it was that gave you a scumread in the first place? Because you've namedropped me four or five times now without actually saying, and it makes me feel like it was just "draw a name out of a hat."

So let's go back and see if we can't find why Innocent was scumreading Massive in the first place.
194 - RVS vote on Elyse, mentions interest in voting Massive also.
Then fake vig, pokes at Jagen for it, and that's all. OK. So it was an RVS suspicion that escalated because Massive claimed Innocent had namedropped him but ignored when Innocent pursued ZZZX briefly, and when questioned, backed away from it, then finally made the above quoted remark. Which means Massive was effectively doing nothing except defending/being defended by flipped scum for the first part of day 1. Not a good look.

There's also this comment in response to Deltawave suggesting AliveChihiro/Jagen could be a scum-scum interaction.

So you consider their fight scum/scum? Have you seen scum/scum fights before?

Then he moves back to the Yakko wagon, and that's why he's coloured orange in my wagon analysis.

I've seen enough to feel convinced of scum!Massive. I think IAI died because they'd become embroiled with Jagen, Elyse, and potentially also scum!Massive.

Now, Fresh...Boon is unreadable for me. I'd be happy to lynch him since he's basically active lurking/passively posting however. If you review Massive and still think Boon is a better lynch, I'll consider it. For now though, I think Massive is the best lynch.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #2469 (isolation #97) » Sun May 31, 2015 4:24 pm

Hmmmm.

I think the scum survivors are Fresh/Massive/Peregrine. So I'm taking Boon off of my shortlist for now. Considering if this cluster is viable as I don't recall anybody pinging Fresh before hand. But I just noticed his placement on the Elyse wagon day 3 was second to last, ideal bus position, right before Jagen's hammer. Then I noticed that Fresh was pushing for a Strange Cougar lynch day 1, and, I don't know, it just feels right.

I still want to see Fresh's explanation for why he thinks scum!Boon over scum!Massive however.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #2475 (isolation #98) » Mon Jun 01, 2015 5:16 am

A trivial review of my iso reveals me making extensive cases on MonkeyMan, AliveChihiro, TSO, Kthxbye and Massive, iirc, which would be known to you if you had actually read my ISO, which you have claimed to do so.

Since you didn't do it, that means you lied about ISO'ing me as the basis of your vote, earlier. OK, so that's either super lazy or scum, take your pick.

That said, I'd rather a lynch from the Yakko wagon because if we pick right that's a lot of confirmed town. And since I think you're scum, and you have a problem with people voting Massive...I think we're on the right track here.

Sky_Paladin · Post Post #2477 (isolation #99) » Mon Jun 01, 2015 1:42 pm

I'm voting Massive over Madman because, as stated in my 2405:

I think we should probably lynch amongst Sky/Madman/Massive for this phase, and since TSO was right about....probably everything...I'll probably go there for now.
Gonna ISO Massive next and see if I see something to change my mind.

My ISO of Massive did not change my mind. If you believe Madman is scum, please make a case and I'll review it - in the same way I asked Fresh to outline his Boon scum case, and I'm currently unmoved.

I note that you explicitly referred to my 2405 and quoted the first half of the sentence, yet butchered the quote to somehow remove the critical context.

It's hard to see this as actual laziness. It looks more like nefarious intent to me.

Sky_Paladin · Mon Jun 01, 2015 11:08 pm

Half the phase is burned up. Come on people. Scum aren't gonna lynch themselves.

Sky_Paladin · Tue Jun 02, 2015 2:21 pm

Sky's vote is based on associations.

My vote is

primarily

based on your engagement with I Am Innocent leaving you looking like scum, because you backed away from your attack on IAI and then resorted to sarcasm/have a net result of nil scum hunting day 1. The interaction with scum (including a mutual defend with flipped scum Jagen) is a secondary, but still concerning, issue.

Sky_Paladin · Tue Jun 02, 2015 4:06 pm

Monkey is

confirmed town

because Kthxbye hid behind him and lived. That's how we know there is 100% exactly one scum left among the Yakko voters, and it's not MonkeyMan.

Sky_Paladin · Tue Jun 02, 2015 4:09 pm

We can then draw the likely conclusion that if Elyse was antagonistic towards Monkey (town) AND Boon (???) there likely to be a related alignment.

So I believe in town!Boon at this time.

Klingoncelt is making some effort to resolve this, as is, I hope you think, Sky. So I think we could narrow it down to Massive/TWIE. I haven't actually looked at TWIE to any degree because I was so sure Massive was scum, but I'll take ten minutes to review them. I mainly see Massive defending themselves which shows evidence of self-interest. The proper course of action is to lynch them and review their activity post flip.

Sky_Paladin · Tue Jun 02, 2015 4:16 pm

A trivial review of TWIE shows a healthy scepticism of Elyse/Jagen/Massive from rather early in the game. Their main contribution so far seems to be bringing up the other town clears from Kthxbye's flip.

Reading TWIE's iso looks refreshingly town - I know who they don't like and who they do like. I would prefer more scum hunting than IioA but there's no scummy interactions or contradictions. Looks clear to me.

I'm going to stick with Massive - he's scummy from his own actions, scummy with interactions and mutual defends on confirmed scum, and scum by POE. That's three strikes, yer out.

Sky_Paladin · Tue Jun 02, 2015 6:11 pm

An ISO means read 'in isolation'. I didn't consider TWIE's posts against others, I just went "well does this flow". I'll look into your points in my next batch write up.

If you're main issue is not pushing Elyse and wanting to leave her til day 4, well, I was the major proponent of that and was certain scum!TSO right up until Elyse flipped. I think you probably ought to be voting me - after all, Peregrine asked you to.

IIRC Elyse said she tracked Delta (now TWIE) n1 and Massive n2. Worth reflecting on. I'll review Delta in detail later; he did put a vote on Jagen early day 1 but pulled it because of a 'town response'.

My lynch priority right now is Massive > Boon > TWIE.

Sky_Paladin · Tue Jun 02, 2015 6:52 pm

Ok

Please lay out your case on TWIE or link to a previous one. Because we're nearly at phase end and wagons are Boon/Massive.

Sky_Paladin · Thu Jun 04, 2015 5:42 am

Deadline this close I'm not optimistic about a Massive lynch (or a TWIE one, even if I could be persuaded).

If there's still no activity when I get back, I'll consolidate on Boon.

Sky_Paladin · Thu Jun 04, 2015 2:38 pm

Boonskiies (5): StrangerCoug, ZZZX, massive,Fresh,inte,
massive (4): Boonskiies, Klingoncelt,Sky_Paladin,TheWayItEnds,
StrangerCoug (1): RationalMadman
TheWayItEnds (1): Garmr
Sky Paladin (1): PeregrineV,

We only need 7 to lynch. I thought it was more than that. I'll delay consolidating for another 24 hours.

To all the players solo-voting (and especially Madman, who is voting from not-the-Yakko-wagon, and sadly Garmr who at least believes in scum!TWIE) please make a decision between Boon and Massive.

Sky_Paladin · Fri Jun 05, 2015 4:31 am

As stated in 2405

I think we should probably lynch amongst Sky/Madman/Massive for this phase, and since TSO was right about....probably everything...I'll probably go there for now. Gonna ISO Massive next and see if I see something to change my mind.

My ISO of Massive did not change my mind. If you believe Madman is scum, please make a case and I'll review it - in the same way I asked Fresh to outline his Boon scum case, and I'm currently unmoved.

I note that you explicitly referred to my 2405 and quoted the first half of the sentence, yet butchered the quote to somehow remove the critical context.

It's hard to see this as actual laziness. It looks more like nefarious intent to me.

Sky_Paladin · Fri Jun 05, 2015 4:34 am

If Massive does flip town then I'll review Boon/Madman/TWIE. But I just don't have time to do all of them now when there's a whole bunch of other players who could totally do it as well, and if Massive flips scum, then I never have to worry about it again.

Sky_Paladin · Fri Jun 05, 2015 5:42 am

Only one (or perhaps none) of Massive/Madman/Boon could possibly be scum though, and 2/3 of those are afk. Boon was chronically afk all game, Madman iirc replaced Delta who didn't look completely awful.

TBH I think Pere/Fresh are our off wagon scums so I'm like w/e. Also it's 1:30 am. I could happily consolidate on to Boon since the game will be no worse from his disappearance.

IMO Massive has many interactions with flipped scum so I'm still down with his lynch. But TWIE's unvote makes me think if Garmr was right all along. Explain~~~~

Sky_Paladin · Fri Jun 05, 2015 5:46 am

Oh wait, Madman replaced AliveChihiro right? I towncleared that slot way back in day 1 after I iso'd her for her vote on Monkeyman. The genderwar with Jagen who flipped scum effectively ruled out that as a high profile target imo.

So for me priority is:
Massive > Boon > some other guys from the Yakko wagon. TWIE or klingoncelt yes? Because MM is town confirmed. Rightyo.

Sky_Paladin · Fri Jun 05, 2015 5:52 am

2. PV's pretty obviously town

Tell me more about this.

1. Im Delta. Madman is Alive

Ok. I/town already dismissed madman as a serious lynch candidate because of the Jagen/Alive drama. I haven't flagged madman as scum so I didn't look into the slot.
My scum reads were TSO and Kthxbye. They're dead. So then I looked at what TSO said and he said 'Massive'. SO I looked at massive since my own wagon analysis picked down to those three (Boon/Massive/Madman iirc) and if I'm town clearing Madman myself for now, then by poe it's those two.

Boon's ISO is frustrating and not alignment indicative.
Massive has interaction tells as well as the withdraw-from-combat with IAI that equals 'empty content posting' with a slice of 'no scum hunting.'

So I'll be leaving my vote on Massive. If there's a vig, shoot Boon.

3. Unvoting massive doesnt actually make sense if I'm scum.

I didn't realllly say that you were. I just wanna know your feelings~~ Share wif me <3

Sky_Paladin · Fri Jun 05, 2015 10:46 pm

Fresh - my main ISO review was in 2468, which details the interactions and highlights why the IAI/Massive interactions look poor.

I'm not able to spend any significant time on the game before phase end because it's my birthday weekend and I'm busy with party etc.

Sometime earlier this phase I remember somebody saying that all the Yakko wagon voters need to argue amongst themselves about who to lynch. I'm seeing activity from Klingon/TWIE. Boon isn't doing anything, Massive is defending and not really making any effort to solve the game, and Madman isn't doing anything either. I'm psuedo clearing Madman for the earlier Jagen interactions. If there's anybody else I forgot them.

I would also be satisfied with a Boon flip and we can redo this conversation in the next day phase. Boon isn't going to contribute/probably can't be trusted in LYLO.

I just, like, think Massive is scum, so. I can't exactly remember who you think is scum. Can you clarify?

Sky_Paladin · Sat Jun 06, 2015 4:32 am

Unless something does something interesting in the next 8 hours, I'm consolidating on to Boon when I get up.

Massive/Boon should probably think about claiming (iirc Boon claimed VT already) though.

CUT BY THE MOD

Hi Tiershift. Please 'do something interesting' in the next 8 hours.

Sky_Paladin · Sat Jun 06, 2015 8:25 am

The main thing to be aware of is that MonkeyMan claimed town sensor, and that three scum players voted to lynch Yakko on day 1.

Monkeyman was later confirmed town by Kthxbye who flipped sensor and left crumbs pointing to town MonkeyMan, and scum Jagen (whom we lynched).

That means there's one scum amongst this list of names from Yakko:
Klingoncelt,

T S O

, alivechihiro,

MonkeyMan576, Jaqen Hghar

, Boonskiies,

Elyse

, massive, DeltaWave, Sky_Paladin,

kthxbye

The crossed out names are either flipped or confirmed town.

Some players (myself included) currently believe that alivechihiro (your slot) is town because of a fairly big argument chihiro had with Jagen that caused her to quit the game. It's unlikely scum would antagonise each other to this degree, and I had also previously town sorted chihiro for her vote and interactions with Yakko early day 1. Plus, you know, you know you're town, right? Deltawave was later replaced by TheWayItEnds (TWIE).

That leaves the operational list of one-scum-amongst-these to be:
Klingoncelt, Boonskiies, massive, TWIE, Sky_Paladin.

Out of those five, there are two main wagons - Boon and Massive.

The main reason for the Boon wagon is that he has done absolutely nothing all game and made light of the fact that he doesn't care/always plays this way/etc. IMO a great consolidation lynch because the game won't suffer if he flips town, and if he flips scum, fantastic.
I personally feel TWIE/Klingoncelt have made effort to solve the game (as have I), while Massive has not. My main reason for looking at Massive was because I had scum read TSO/Kthx/Monkeyman for a good chunk of the game, only for them to all flip town or be confirmed town. I decided initially to sheep TSO's scum read on Massive and investigated it. When I ISO'd Massive, I found that he had several mutual defends of flipped scum (Elyse, Jagen both involved) as well as interactions with the player that was killed that night (IAI). The encounter with IAI was interesting in my mind because it looked like faked content to appear active, on Massive's behalf.

IMO Massive has a good chance to flip scum. I think that now that there's a phase extension and players have time to read back and review, a consolidation on to Boon isn't satisfactory - they (and myself) should read what Massive has done/said, and decide for themselves if they think Massive is scum or not.

Personally I want to look further at Klingoncelt and TWIE to satisfy myself if they are town or not. My initial quick snap reads didn't bring up any major issues and it seemed to be genuine towny content. Although I rate TWIE higher than Celty atm.

Anyway I'm drunk so I'll leave it there for now. Welcome adn good luck.

Sky_Paladin · Sat Jun 06, 2015 4:42 pm

@Tiershift

few quick questions:
why did we have a no lynch on day 2?
Why is monkey still alive?
any other claims/conftowns out there?
Can you point me to the post where you have this ISO read with mutual defends?

Day 2 no lynch: Elyse and TSO were counterwagons. Near deadline, Elyse slipped behind and TSO went to L-1. Kthxbye and Aunt Jemima were around at deadline and felt strongly that TSO was town/Elyse was scum, so they both decided not to hammer, and there was not enough votes for an Elyse hammer. As it happened, we've had flips on TSO/Kthxbye/AJ/Elyse by now, and the first three were town.

Why is Monkey still alive?
My guess would be because until the previous day phase, he was not confirmed town. There was always a possibility that he was scum saying "Hey I know how many scum there are on the wagon lolol" and misdirecting town. That's what I thought for a big chunk of day 2, actually, and nearly had MM lynched because of it. So I think scum would have left him around because there was a good chance that at some point town would lynch him to validate his info.

I'm not really sure why scum hit Ank n3. They hit TSO n4 (perhaps they were expecting a watcher?) so I figure they'll go for MM this night phase. MM apparently had his vote 'stolen' for this night phase, he has previously tried to vote and nothing happened.

Other claims/confirmtown: Not that I'm aware of. That's all the information that we have gone public. The only other roled town flipped so far was Yakko, who was lynched day 1 after refusing to claim.

Massive ISO review is 2468. I'll re-review this in light of what Massive said at the top of this page around 20 hours from now, but today I have cake, pancakes and beer, so I don't have a whole lot of time to play right now.

Sky_Paladin · Sun Jun 07, 2015 11:18 pm

MonkeyMan cannot vote.

Massive, you are at L-1. Your claim is well overdue. Boon already claimed VT.

A little over 24 hours in the phase remaining.

massive (6): Boonskiies, Klingoncelt,Sky_Paladin,inte, Garmr, Tiershift
Boonskiies (4): StrangerCoug, ZZZX, massive,Fresh,
Sky Paladin (1): PeregrineV,

Not Voting (2): MonkeyMan576,TheWayItEnds

Peregrine/Fresh probably scum, Massive won't self hammer, so the only players eligible to vote are StrangeCoug and The Way It ends.

Sky_Paladin · Mon Jun 08, 2015 1:33 pm

Yakko and friends

hi im Yakko (11):
Klingoncelt
,
T S O
,
alivechihiro

Tiershift
,
MonkeyMan576
,
Jaqen Hghar
,
Boonskiies
,
Elyse
,
massive
,
DeltaWave

TWIE, Sky_Paladin
,
Kthxbye

StrangerCoug (4): Fresh, Garmr,
I Am Innocent, Ankamius

Boonskiies (2): StrangerCoug,
Aunt Jemina

Current tally:

massive (6):
Boonskiies, Klingoncelt, Sky_Paladin
, inte, Garmr,
TierShift

Boonskiies (6): StrangerCoug, ZZZX,
massive
, Fresh, PeregrineV,
TheWayItEnds

+

Monkeyman

's would-be-hammer on Massive.

The

only

orange player not voting Massive (excluding Massive himself) is TWIE.

I wouldn't mind people telling me what they think about the current wagon situation.

Anyway, let's keep this in mind and let's look at day 2/day 3 tallies.

End of day 2

T S O (9):
Elyse
, ZZZX, PeregrineV, StrangerCoug,
Sky_Paladin
, Fresh,
RationalMadman

Tiershift
,
massive
,
Jaqen Hghar

Elyse (7):
Aunt Jemina
, Garmr, Klingoncelt,
Kthxbye
,
MonkeyMan576
, Boonskiies,
Ankamius

Early

day 3 vote - this eventuated because Kthx didn't hammer.

Kthxbye
(7):
Sky_Paladin
,
Jaqen Hghar
, StrangerCoug,
Elyse
,
Boonskiies, Klingoncelt
,
MonkeyMan576

Elyse (4): Garmr,
Kthxbye, T S O
, inte

Mid

day 3 vote - kthx wagon disintegrates. Some voters remain.

Kthxbye (4):
Jaqen Hghar, Elyse
,
Boonskiies
,
Klingoncelt

Elyse (4): Garmr,
Kthxbye, T S O
, inte

Players who shifted to Elyse at this point are probably town, given two confirmed town flips amongst that group already - so Garmr/inte in my good books from now.

Conversely, players who didn't move (Boon/Klingon) look worse. However, Klingon unvoted by the next tally, leaving just scum/scum/boonskies on Kthxbye. Boon then votes for Elyse despite another wagon being available, if he was merely avoiding voting for his scumbuddies.

Mid

day 3 vote - first emergence of Massive wagon, not Boon placement.

Elyse (4): Garmr,
Kthxbye
, inte, Boonskiies
massive (4):
T S O,
TheWayItEnds,
Jaqen Hghar
,
Klingoncelt

IMO TWIE unvote of Massive this day phase doesn't really match up with somebody who was scum reading them from day 3 and I'd like TWIE to further clarify why they suddenly think Massive is town.

Mid day 3

- emergence of RationalMadman/Tiershift wagon. Note Boon still voting Elyse. At this time, no confirmed town voting for Elyse (but some are voting for Madman/Tiershift).

Elyse (4): Garmr, inte,
Boonskiies
, StrangerCoug
RationalMadman (4):
Ankamius
, PeregrineV,
Kthxbye
, Fresh

This would have been the ideal time for scum to join the Tiershift wagon, since they apparently didn't want to join the Massive wagon, and both Massive and Tiershift cannot be scum at the same time.

Who did join the wagon?

Late day 3

3 days before hammer.

Elyse (6): Garmr,
Boonskiies
, StrangerCoug, inte,
T S O, Kthxbye

RationalMadman (5):
Ankamius
, PeregrineV, Fresh,
Jaqen Hghar
,
TheWayItEnds

Jagen (scum) and TWIE joined the wagon. Boon still voting Elyse. Two confirmed town joined Elyse wagon.

No further counterwagons appear and votes eventually aggregate to Elyse for a lynch.

***

Given that TWIE seems to have advance knowledge that Massive might be flipping town despite scum reading them for day 4/most of day 5 as the basis for changing their vote, and their vote placement late day 4/5, I'm reconsidering my town read on TWIE.

I would appreciate if TWIE could address this.

Sky_Paladin · Mon Jun 08, 2015 4:06 pm

The main issue for me, right now, is that the wagons have been tied 6/6.

It seems to me, that if one of those was a scum wagon, and all scums weren't already voting for the other wagon, they'd find a way to hammer.

Sky_Paladin · Mon Jun 08, 2015 4:07 pm

I wonder if we are seeing town/town. We know it can't be scum/scum.

Sky_Paladin · Mon Jun 08, 2015 4:08 pm

Yeah i dont think hes scum anymore.

I thought I covered that already.

Earlier you said that you thought that Massive was town, after scum reading him for some time.

I'd like you to clarify

why

you felt this.

Sky_Paladin · Mon Jun 08, 2015 4:17 pm

So...more than 50% of the players alive from the wagon are voting Massive.
Scum is one of those players.

Wow really? Please tell me this was just a poor choice in wording, because I don't think you actually meant to claim scum here.

-cut-
I'm okay with the Massive hammer.

I am also starting to think he is going to flip town but I'm also thinking Boon is town.

I think TWIE scum claimed when he decided to back away from the Massive wagon without reason. And I think Fresh is just as bad for *knowing* TWIE's supposed alignment. Let's talk more tomorrow o/

Sky_Paladin · Mon Jun 08, 2015 5:02 pm

sky i can tell you without a doubt that your case is
almost
as good as garmrs.

"almost" as good? HMMMMMMMMM

and im really looking forward to you fervently explaining that im scum for rereading an iso and changing my mind.

_IF_ Massive flips town, we'll talk more on this. Otherwise, you know, we're both confirmed town so w/e.

Sky_Paladin · Mon Jun 08, 2015 6:23 pm

yeah at least your shitty case had a remedial amount of effort and isnt based on being salty about losing last game.

I want you to explain why you suddenly reversed your scum read on Massive to a town read. You earlier said that you were all caught up and fine with either a Massive or a Boon lynch.

What did you see 'on your re-read' that made you believe in Massive enough not to vote for him, but not so much that you were actually trying to defend him. Assume that because it's the internet I'm a child and I need it spelled out for me.

Sky_Paladin · Fri Jun 12, 2015 5:47 am

massive (7):
Boonskiies, Klingoncelt, Sky_Paladin
,
inte, Garmr,
TierShift
,
StrangeCougar

Boonskiies (5):
ZZZX
,
massive
,
Fresh
,
PeregrineV
,
TheWayItEnds

I'd vote any of the orange guys this day phase, and I'll go back to review if any of them ever did anything. Fresh/Peregrine my main scum picks at this stage.

Can't really see a viable scenario for scum inte/Garmr, they've both been on the right side of critical lynches. SC gets town points for hammering a game-winning lynch imo.

Sky_Paladin · Fri Jun 12, 2015 5:50 am

What? What A random group of people. Is this your way of saying you are mason?

We're town cleared because the magic three scums out of the players who voted Yakko have now been found. The one who brought that info to life was Monkeyman, who has now flipped green, thus removing any trace of doubt.

hi im Yakko (11):
Klingoncelt, T S O, alivechihiro, MonkeyMan576
,
Jaqen Hghar
,
Boonskiies
,
Elyse
,
massive
,
DeltaWave, Sky_Paladin, Kthxbye

cut by Tiershift
OK. I've never seen an exploder before. I thought that it was an on-lynch effect. I'll review the situation after the weekend.

Sky_Paladin · Sun Jun 14, 2015 12:23 am

Prod dodge. Still on weekend/semi-VLA.

@mod

- hoping to get clarification.
Does the 'Exploder' ability trigger on the players death, or must it be enacted pre-hamer?

Scum knowing that Massive could self destruct...are not as concerned about his survival as, say, Elyse's survival. Therefore I'm less willing to dismiss mid/early bus on the wagon and I can buy that SC was sounding out if Massive was going to kaboom before hammering.

I want to go back and check the interactions and I'll get time in around 15 hours.

Sky_Paladin · Mon Jun 15, 2015 5:46 pm

I'm first going to review our three flipped dead scums to see if we can get any one-way interaction tells with any of our suspects (ZZZX, Fresh, Peregrine, StrangeCougar, Inte), and then ISO those five individually.

Elyse:
RVS vote for inte. Scums often trivially vote for each other in RVS.
RVS vote for Fresh. Scums often trivially vote for each other in RVS. Lines up neatly with inte/Fresh scum lol.
Queries but does not vote ZZZX.
Empty unvote on Fresh.
Asks inte to explain his TSO read.
Frustration/argument with Garmr likely indicates town!Garmr.
"I'm with Fresh here."
"I think Fresh meant it that way so right now I'm seeing this as town v town."
This is in regard to StrangeCougar voting Fresh after Fresh's comment that 'half the players in the game are scum'.
289 likes Peregrine's vote on Strange Cougar.
Questions ZZZX for his vote on IAI.
States preference for a Boon lynch over a SC lynch, criticises Boon's read on SC. Also challenges IAI to update their reads on Massive and herself.
Namedrops PV.
Namedrops and gives a townread on PV because 'I also think PV starting a new wagon points to him being town'. The wagon was, for the record, on me o/
'Good try Fresh' re questioning MonkeyMan for voting off his own info.
Namedrops PV, more hate on Garmr.
Still more Garmr hate.
Not townreading Massive. IS townreading PV.

And thus ends the tale of Elyse.
Key takeaway points: Barely/never mentions other flipped scums (massive/Jagen) and if so, mainly in defense or challenging players over secondary points.
Remaining scum are probably amongst the group of players Elyse doesn't mention much, specifically, inte, ZZZX.
Likes to town clear Fresh and Peregrine. Subtly encourages SC wagon but doesn't get involved.
Hates Garmr. Likely indicative of Garmr town.

Next up: Jagen.

Sky_Paladin · Mon Jun 15, 2015 6:20 pm

Jagen Haqar -

(No RVS vote).
Chimes in TSO's question about Elyse.
Response to inte questioning his AliveChihiro (now Tiershift) vote.
Encourages SC wagon, but more interested in AliveChihiro lynch.
Reads list. Removed dead non-scum players.
Neutral - Garmr, ZZZX.
Leaning scum - Peregrine
Leaning town - Strange Cougar, Massive, Fresh, Inte
Scum - Elyse

Jagen strikes me as a very experienced player who might never have been caught without Kthx's sacrifice, and this split of reads is very interesting.

A very direct challenge to SC.
Another challenge to SC. NB, Jagen still hasn't updated his opinion on SC.
Bus on Elyse.
(Insert battle with alivechihiro here, and nothing of consequence)
Re-votes (bus) on Elyse.
Challenges Fresh to explain his Jagen vote.
Semantics/screwing SC around.
Namedrops inte with approval for AC lynch.
Quotes/sideways questions Peregrine who is questioning Kthx (the main push of Jagen at this time).
Challenges Garmr to explain his Elyse read (and others).
Explains why, out of Sky, SC and Elyse, he'd rather lynch (bus) Elyse.
Inexplicable vote (bus) for Massive, in response to TWIE/Elyse massive push. Quickly hops on to Kthx. Revotes Elyse soon after.
Says one of massive or TSO is scum. (Well, we know it was massive).
Starting to show some cracks, argues with Peregrine over no-lynching, empty unvote, scumreading Peregrine now. Revotes Elyse.
List of roled/not roled after being outed.

Removing dead/confirmed towns leaves this list:

PR
inte

VT
StrangerCoug
PeregrineV
massive
Garmr
Fresh
ZZZX

Contrast with previous alignment list.
Neutral - Garmr, ZZZX.
Leaning scum - Peregrine
Leaning town - Strange Cougar, Massive, Fresh, Inte
Scum - Elyse

Could be something to this - inte being the last player left in the 'roled town' category'. Definitely listed *at least two* scums in VT list, since massive already flipped. Probably wifom to look into it in any great detail though.

Key points:
Much harder to iso Jagen. He made an absolute truckload of non content posts and mainly bussed Elyse/pushed Kthxbye. Very happy to bus massive at the first hint of pressure.
No real opinions expressed on other players. Probably can't get anything of value out of this iso.

Town read of inte seems fabricated - they had no real interactions and I don't think anybody in the game was ever town reading inte. Lists massive/SC/Fresh/Inte all as 'leaning town', unlikely three scums are in this group (although two seems plausible).
Occasionally hates on SC but no real pressure to see him lynched. Probably can learn more in the SC iso when I consider SC was a wagon on day 1.

Now reviewing Massive.

Sky_Paladin · Mon Jun 15, 2015 6:28 pm

The main advantage of Massive is that he had a lot of mutual scum tells with pre-existing flipped scum, and now flipped scum himself. So I'm hoping his slowly cooling corpse will cough up the last two names we need.

RVS on Tiershift, quickly replaced to ZZZX. Scum often trivially bus each other but to change a RVS vote is unusual. Contrast with scum!Elyse who changed and then unvoted.
Namedrop/interaction with PV.
Interaction with Jagen, over if there is a SK in the game.
Contrasts Boon/Garmr, notes Garmr made a case on Elyse, so favors a Boon lynch.
Specifically questions Garmr over Elyse's tracking comments.

And then, the town was covered in a ghastly new blend of wall and ceiling paint.

Well that was quick.
The main reason I scum read Massive was for his IAI interactions, and the secondary interactions with Elyse/Jagen.
Other than that, massive doesn't actually have many posts or content. It's mainly arguing with me during day 4.
Argument for lynching Boon over Garmr is plausible. Interactions with other players are quite minimal.

Nothing to conclude. Now looking at our living players.

Sky_Paladin · Mon Jun 15, 2015 7:13 pm

#1 is Fresh. Let's go.

RVS vote was on Yakko (not scum) so all is well.

A number of non-content posts until...
Interaction with SC over 'half the players are scum' comment.
SC vote because SC is calling Fresh out for his sarcasm (to be fair, all of Fresh's posts are sarcastic). SC countervotes.
Says no to a Yakko wagon. Shin-kicks Peregrine for his Sky vote. Sticks to voting SC.
Continues to poke Peregrine.
Validates his 'no Yakko wagon' comment, specifically to MonkeyMan.
Calls out players for voting Boon as scum (mentions SC, Monkey). The wagon at this time is:

Boonskiies (6):
Elyse
,
T S O
,
StrangerCoug
,
Aunt Jemina, Ankamius, MonkeyMan576

At this time, there are 1-2 scums on the wagon.
Mainly, Fresh is criticising the Boon wagon, and since we know Boon is town, that looks good for him.
Challenges Peregrine to explain his Sky vote (again). Peregrine failed to do so.
Interaction with Sky. Says he'll take Monkey to the grave over Boon. Later reiterates 'not feeling Yakko wagon'.
This questionable interaction, in response to Kthx.

You find suspicion in JH looking to possibly avoid voting AJ by being on Yakko instead.

Do you think they are on the same team? Both town/scum?

Not sure what to make of it to be honest.
Restates belief SC is scum, and Yakko is town.
Buys Elyse's claim she was framed by IAI's death.
Random commentary with Inte.
Attempts to get town to vote for players on the Yakko wagon (prefers Delta) rather than discussing how many scum there are.
First mention of JH suspicion, still wants Delta's head.
Town read on SC.
Votes JH.

Perfectly

consistent with earlier commentary and clearing of Monkey/SC and shows evidence of natural progression and development of reads. Strongest evidence of town motivation.
Clarifies his JH vote briefly.
Good 'state of play' post. Explains why he unvoted (Jagen was voting too). Picks up some players. Calls out ZZZX for basically not existing.
ISO'smassive (after Jagen flip). "I don't know what to make of it. I think I will see what transpires from his question to Garmr."
Also urges town to find the last scum on the Yakko wagon rather than vote SC at this time.
Chooses Boon over Massive.

The dodgy activity is one thing. Easy for a scum to lay low but whatever everyone does it.
Voting Yakko late because a lynch was needed. No one knew Monkey would be a sensor. He voted Yakko 3 times during day 1. That vote moved around a whole hell of a lot but it was on Yakko 3 times.
In days two-four, there isn't a single vote he casts that is accompanied by a meaningful reason.
Avoids the Jaqen lynch. Why? Certainly was online to do it.
Today the meta defense. "You can't lynch me because I'm playing like I've played other town games."

No. Just no.

As for Massive, to respond to Sky, unlike Boon he gives plenty to read. Just like you he had a hard-on for TSO but managed to (in my opinion) understand reason. But I also feel posts like anywhere on Monday the 18th were fluff and a little scum play by poking fun at TSO and not discussing reads. He gives me reasons to believe he's both town and scum.

So if you ask me who I think is the more scum player on both posts and defenses, I go Boon.

This looks like a fairly well reasoned post and in hindsight I should have paid more attention to it. I, also, was kind of ambivalent about Boon or Massive for a good chunk of the phase.
Backs up with "Ignore town meta", which is something I say a lot also.

***

At this stage is mainly looking for a SC lynch but hasn't actually voted yet.

Overall analysis: Fresh has made many posts. While a large number of them have been content posts, a large number of them have also been interaction posts, and his thought process is pretty well laid out.

I'm town sorting Fresh at this stage.

Sky_Paladin · Mon Jun 15, 2015 7:32 pm

Next is Peregrine.

Sheeps SC's RVS vote on Jemina. Relevant if SC flips scum.
Scum reads inte and AJ, explains why in...
here, also mentions ZZZX needs to post more to be read.
Minor poke of inte.
Vote SC over his involvement in Fresh's "half the players in the game are scum" comment.
Possible tri-scum interection.
Elyse says Jagen has explaining to do if his fake vig of AC was legit. And also defends PV. And PV asks Elyse why Jagen has to explain anything.
Interaction with inte,

If the vig is real, why would Jagen have some explaining to do?

pressure on Elyse.
Votes Elyse when explanation is not forthcoming.
States reasoning behind his vote on Sky/not on Elyse.

Jaqen did a fake crappy dayvig. He wants to make things happen, so he can stay for another day.
Elyse has votes from 2 of the shadiest right now. Can't in good conscience bite on that.

The players voting Elyse at this time were IAI and TSO.
Suggests scum amongst massive/AC after wagon analysis.
Softdefense of Elyse.
Pings Fresh and ZZZX for inactivity (not voting).
Reminds ZZZX that PV stated he would be able to read ZZZX later in the game, and so far, ZZZX is looking scum.
Town read on Garmr day 3 due to Elyse interactions. Which I also noted.
Minor inte/PV interaction.
Main focus for the Massive/Boon interaction is on me, but then finally votes Boon.

***

Overall, Peregrine is quite a troubled character, but he does have moments of lucidity and some good stuff in there. I'm also interested in his claim info.
His reads seem to progress in a natural way and although there are some scum-scum-interactions, he is mostly hating on Elyse at the right time.

Current reads in order: Fresh, Peregrine, (ZZZX/Inte/SC). Next is inte.

Sky_Paladin · Mon Jun 15, 2015 7:55 pm

inte. Why no capital.

RVS on Delta, not scum so irrelevant.
Early interaction with Jagen re: "how do you pick who to RVS for"
Defends ZZZX from 4burner (my-slot) question.
Then pokes ZZZX himself.
Self defend from PV.
Questioning PV over his votes.
Softscum read on SC and PV.
'Stops scum reading' jagen.
States refusal to vote Jagen day 2.
Scum read on PV because AJ/IAI dead.
fos ZZZX
Names.

legit tho explain how you came to the conclusion that RationalMadman, massive, Jaqen Hghar are the reason why there was a no-lynch yesterday

2/3 are scum.
Votes Elyse.
States reasoning for Elyse vote, which is actually quite deep despite it's casual appearance.
Scum reads - gimme a hundred dollars if PV, SC,

massive

,

Kthxbye

, and

Elyse

are scum. Sorry buddy, no cash for you :C
States only intent to lynch Rational or Elyse. This seems a bit fabricated, as he added in Rational after PV told him he was wrong about PV.
Votes Elyse after she failed to provide reads.
Votes Jagen after Kthx died and crumbs.
Scum reads ZZZX.
Wantsa lynch of massive or Sky.
Votes Boon early during Boon/massive play off.
The Longest Ever Post from inte, where he responds to my case for town!Boon and scum!Massive.
Finally votes Massive because the people on the Boon wagon 'don't sit right with me'.
Those people are:

StrangerCoug, ZZZX, massive,Fresh

Until now, inte has really only mentioned ZZZX, so by 'people' we can presume it's ZZZX specifically.

And rolls around today with a Fresh or PV lynch as his first choice.

This really doesn't fly since the main players inte has been hating on this game are ZZZX and PV. I don't think inte has ever mentioned Fresh before now.

***

Overall, inte has

a tremendous

number of spam posts and amongst those are sprinkled an occasional amount of useful/semi useful posts. He's been more active this day phase than others, which suggests he's motivated at least to stay in the game.
His vote on Elyse looks better than his massive vote. The massive vote looks fabricated and could be a bus.

I could see inte scum.

Reads:
Fresh, Peregrine, inte, (ZZZX/SC/Garmr)

Next up is ZZZX.

Sky_Paladin · Mon Jun 15, 2015 7:56 pm

I'm burned out from doing this all day so I'm going to take a break and look at the remaining three tomorrow RL.

Sky_Paladin · Mon Jun 15, 2015 7:57 pm

I think SC was a main player on day 1 and a lot of scum players passively hated on him. I'll do his ISO before Garmr's because I think his alignment info is probably the game breaking moment. Which may make his lynch mandated anyway.

Sky_Paladin · Tue Jun 16, 2015 2:05 am

Strange Cougar
RVS on AJ, AJ flipped town, so not relevant.
Quotes and references both Jagen and Massive fairly early on.
Vote on inte for questioning PV for his vote switch. Noteworthy because I think this is the only time in the game anybody has voted inte.
Pressure on inte, ZZZX.
random townread on Garmr.
Takes a neutral position on Jagen vs Chihiro, "...Why do I have a gut neutral read on both Jaqen and chihiro? It doesn't read town vs. town, it doesn't read scum vs. scum, and there's no evidence of multiple factions, so that leaves town vs. scum. But I could easily see the scum being either, and neither of them are strong reads."
Namedrop of Elyse re: TSO attack.
No opinion on ZZZX, town read on Elyse.
Commentary on Elyse after questioning from TSO.
Votes for Elyse, after fairly minimal improvement from TSO that apparently warrants this.
The trouble I have with this reasoning is that SC assumes that Elyse and TSO are of opposite alignments, and if one is town, then the other must automatically be scum.
However, the scenario of a town-town conflict between TSO and Elyse was also completely plausible and not considered by SC at all. He went from scum reading TSO to essentially town reading him.

The vote came when the tallies looked like this:

Elyse
(4): Garmr,
Kthxbye
, inte,
Boonskiies

massive
(4):
T S O, TheWayItEnds
,
Jaqen Hghar
,
Klingoncelt

RationalMadman
(2):
Ankamius
, PeregrineV

T S O
(3):
Sky_Paladin
, StrangerCoug,
Elyse

Klingoncelt
(1):
massive

Boonskiies
(1):
MonkeyMan576

ZZZX (1):
RationalMadman

And changed it to this:

Elyse
(4): Garmr,
Kthxbye
, inte,
Boonskiies
, StrangerCoug

massive
(4):
T S O, TheWayItEnds
,
Jaqen Hghar
,
Klingoncelt

RationalMadman
(2):
Ankamius
, PeregrineV

T S O
(2):
Sky_Paladin
,
Elyse

Klingoncelt
(1):
massive

Boonskiies
(1):
MonkeyMan576

ZZZX (1):
RationalMadman

At this point in time, we had two competing scum wagons - massive, and Elyse, with the closest third a split between TSO and RMM. Right before SC's sudden heel-face-turn, Elyse had just changed her vote from solo-voting kthxbye to voting TSO. So you might think that scum!SC would have stayed on the wagon at this point. Instead, he hopped off on to the counter wagon.

Scum probably wanted to push for a lynch of TSO or RMM at this point.

After Elyse unvoted, Jagen votes for Kthx (making Elyse the lead wagon) and Kthx votes for RMM (making three wagons tied at three - Elyse, Massive, RMM). This is the time for scum to make their move.

Fresh votes RMM.
inte votes Elyse, although he had already been doing so.
Jagen vote Rational Madman. RMM now the lead wagon by two.
TSO revotes Elyse, making RMM lead wagon by one.
TWIE votes madman, RMM now lead wagon by two, massive now down to two votes (Jagen and Klingon). This wagon effectively dead, so the scum plan now would be mainly to attrition more votes on to RMM/away from Elyse. Who is currently being voted by Garmr, inte, SC. Let's see if any of those three move away from Elyse.
When kthx suddenly voting Elyse, the wagons shift again.

Current votes;

Elyse
(6): Garmr,
Boonskiies
, StrangerCoug, inte,
T S O, Kthxbye

RationalMadman
(5):
Ankamius
, PeregrineV, Fresh,
Jaqen Hghar
,
TheWayItEnds

Klingoncelt
(2):
massive
,
RationalMadman

T S O
(2):
Sky_Paladin
,
Elyse

StrangerCoug (1):
MonkeyMan576

massive
(1):
Klingoncelt

At this point, Fresh unvotes, making Elyse the clear wagon. Definitely not a scum move. Town clear on Fresh. Elyse lynch now mainly on the cards, and Jagen, bus driver from hell, votes Elyse. Gotta get that scum flip cred!

At this point the wagons are no longer remotely close, so analysing vote shifts becomes unviable. ZZZX tries for a flash wagon on PV, but that'll be reviewed in ZZZX's iso.

Let's get back to SC. After Jagen was outed, SC barely posted but did vote, roll on to the next day phase of Boon vs Massive.
Starts with Boon vote.
Specifically announces 'no reason to ISO massive, TWIE'. Town clears KC after a super fast (less than five minutes) ISO on KC. Seems faked; KC has an extensive number of detailed posts (more than SC) so a proper ISO should have taken a lot longer. All of mine are taking quite some time.

Reviewing SC's day 4 has a steady stream of let's lynch Boon, leading up to an ambivalent moment, and KC's dare that he hammer massive. Seems like a deal scum!SC wouldn't have gone for, especially as this was really a critical, possibly game ending lynch. If Boon had been hammered and flipped town, nobody would have blinked, and scum would have a whole extra day to try and put somebody else up instead of massive.

Overall it looks plausible. Given that Jason paused the phase instead of updating it, I think that the Exploder was an if-lynched-then-select-target type dealio.

I agree SC looks bad in some places but his vote on Elyse came at the right time and it was in direct defiance to what scum apparently were playing for. Town.

Current reads:

Fresh, Garmr, Peregrine, SC, Inte, ZZZX. Next up, ZZZX.

Sky_Paladin · Tue Jun 16, 2015 4:16 am

ZZZX

RVS on Fresh. Relevant if Fresh later flips scum. Probably not though.
Changes to Pere because no RVS vote. Relevant if Peregrine flips scum.
Responds to Jagen's open question.
Responds to Elyse's open question.
Question toJagen but doesn't press for an answer.
Inexplicable townclear of 4burner (my slot) for pressing ZZZX to explain his RVS hangup.
Response to directed question from inte.
Picked up by massive and voted; countervotes massive.
Presses IAI for calling Jagen's vig faked. Relevant because this interaction (Jagen/IAI/massive/Elyse) had three scums and the night 1 kill in it. May actually have had four scums if ZZZX is scum!
Quotes Jagen.
Asks Jagen to clarify a question.
Stance on Boon as 'slight village idiot', asks TSO to clarify his push.
Picks apart Monkey/Yakko early day 1 exchange as town vs town or scum vs scum.
More random Jagen quotes.
Promises content and an Elyse vote after he 'checks something'.
Promises content again. Still no Elyse vote.
Town reads on Boon/Ank/Jagen.
Inexplicable post to Jagen about Fresh's Jagen vote.

I am honestly town reading you here but I find fresh's post pretty decent since scum are not too keen on risking everything every time.

Not only does this make no sense, but Fresh didn't actually explain his post in any way so I'm not seeing how his post was 'pretty decent'.
Promises content. Does not produce. Forgets about the game for a whole week (no prod? wow), then goes VLA for four days immediately afterwards.
Promises content again. Does not deliver.
Votes Peregrine in response to Peregrine saying he is an acceptable flash wagon.
ZZZX was basically not present at all for any of the TSO/Elyse shennanigans, although he did vote TSO day 2. He didn't help lynch Jagen.
On day 4, he votedBoon during Boon/Massive battle.
Prod dodge.
Another prod dodge.
Claims to have skimmed massive and 'not feeling that badly about him', asks Tier to vote for Boon. This is at terrible odds with ZZZX's stated content throughout the game.

***

The main points to take away are a huge number of interactions with flipped scum, as well as basically a vanishing act from the start of day 2.
Frequent promises to deliver content were never met; however had read just enough of the game to not want a massive lynch.
Basically unaware of game state - both he and inte share the 'wait why are you guys all town cleared' line which is terrible.

Overall, a number of things that make me think he could be scum. He has basically no scum reads or town reads and was notably absent in several critical parts of the game.

Probably a great candidate for scum and at the very least a fantastic lurker lynch.

Now reading Garmr so I can finish off my reads.
Currently:
Most town -> Fresh, Garmr, Peregrine, StrangeCougar, inte, ZZZX <- most scum.

Sky_Paladin · Tue Jun 16, 2015 4:36 am

Garmr
RVS on SC, relevant if SC flips scum, etc.
Fairly early vote on Elyse for being dodgy.
Continues to poke Elyse.
Defenseof Fresh.
Fairly valid looking case and vote for SC. Later votes for Ank.
Callsout Jagen for his list of reads as being rushed and screaming 'town read me'.
Garmr was voting SC at phase end which is consistent with the bulk of his day 1.
Starts day 2 with a vote for Elyse.
Questions Elyse over her IAI death framed me claim.
Feelsbetter about Jagen after Jagen defends TSO.
Attempts to quell Jagen/Chihiro's battle.

How the hell did I miss this.

In post 1470, Garmr wrote:
The scummy history of the Elyse Chapter 1 the Mistress of Death

OK so Garmr is either the scum bussing bastard team mate from hell, or The Last Hero. If we see him bus another flipped scum as vote #1, then we might have a problem. For now, he's totes town. Let's continue.

Basically the main thing is that Garmr didn't just vote park and throw some trivial comments/pokes at Elyse. He's made the most credible case on Elyse, far better than TSO did, and ultimately is responsible for Elyse's head on a plate.

Picks up a strange interaction between SC and Elyse which I missed.

I'm not liking strange cougar at the moment. He seems to be going for the bigger wagons with little to no reasoning (ktnx and tso) Yet he stance on elyse is weird.

He has been basically defending elyse before the first post then says that and just goes back to elyse most likely being town in the second. It seems really off and out of place.

Here

hey sky can you pass what ever your smoking to me because that seems like some really strong shit.

I don't smoke, but I drink Kirin 0 carb beer. If I haven't eaten food, then it goes right to my head. It's good stuff, comes in a green tin, and since it's 0 carbs, the flavor is really light and you can smash it down without putting on the pounds.

Really great analysis of the game before deciding between Boon/Massive. Somehow winds up voting TWIE, but TWIE was super shady in the dying hours of the day phase so I completely buy it.
Ultimately votes massive when nobody wants to lynch TWIE.

***

Is now voting StrangeCougar. OK.

Current reads are;
Garmr, Fresh, Peregrine, SC, inte, ZZZX.

SC is in the scummy end of my lynch pool; I would happily consolidate there. Since we're a week out of phase end though, I'll start with this.

VOTE: ZZZX

Nobody else claim

.

Please discuss:
I'd like to get claims from inte and ZZZX. And after that, SC. And then after that, Fresh.

Sky_Paladin · Tue Jun 16, 2015 4:55 am

I don't think you should claim just yet. SC is the more popular lynch.

I'd like a mass claim discussed though.

Sky_Paladin · Tue Jun 16, 2015 5:06 am

I doubt town would ever agree to their own lynch.

It seems like you have some role info that contradicts PV's claim, though. Want to share?

Sky_Paladin · Tue Jun 16, 2015 5:19 am

Then you're going to have to explain this:

the thing is I REALLY want to lynch PV now and if he is town he would agree

I'm confirmed town (along with a lot of other players) so now is not the time to ask what an unconfirmed player thinks about a confirmed player.

I'm more interested in what you think.

Sky_Paladin · Tue Jun 16, 2015 5:19 am

UNVOTE: ZZZX
VOTE: inte

Sky_Paladin · Tue Jun 16, 2015 2:26 pm

Why would you say this if you just FoS inte?

Sky_Paladin · Tue Jun 16, 2015 3:27 pm

It's logical to advocate that the scummiest people go first.

Well, if you say so. You are aware that I ranked you as scummier than Peregrine, right?

Intent to hammer.

***

On day 2, when we had three scum amongst ten players, most of us fought very hard to try to find the scum amongst us, so that the right lynch could be made.

Some players don't have the aptitude or ability to do so. Players like Boon show neither the inclination or passion. You, however, showed intellect and ability. I expect you to make some effort.

Sky_Paladin · Tue Jun 16, 2015 4:34 pm

Actually, there are a few more things.

I'd like to see the Peregrine/inte exchange finish up before phase end.

Also this:

Both VCA and common reads declare inte as town. If he were scum, all he'd have to do is sit back and watch Pere/SC/fresh/zzzx get lynched. But he's not doing that. Instead he's refusing to answer questions and totally walks his own way and makes confusing comments. There is absolutely no reason at all for scum to fake that: as scum you'd just play the helpful townie.

is the most wifom explanation I've ever seen. I do agree that SC's fos of it though is terrible though.

inte's done more in the last 24 hours than he has done throughout the entirety of the game. It coincides with me applying the most mild pressure. That shows at least a basic self-preservation instinct and I wouldn't mind lighting a fire under his ass and seeing what more comes bubbling out of his mouth. inte's playstyle this game is the very definition of flying under the radar, and he deserves a great deal more scrutiny.

I'm also not specifically seeing a case for why SC is scum. Some of the scum players mentioned happiness with SC being lynched but none of them ever voted SC that we are aware of. When wagons were existent, the tallies during day 1 were:

hi im Yakko (4):

MonkeyMan576, alivechihiro

,

massive

, PeregrineV
StrangerCoug (3):

DeltaWave

, Fresh,

Boonskiies

Elyse (3): Garmr,

Aunt Jemina, I Am Innocent

//next vote count
StrangerCoug (5):

DeltaWave

, Fresh,

Boonskiies

, PeregrineV,

Ankamius

I Am Innocent (3): ZZZX,

Jaqen Hghar, massive

Elyse (3): Garmr,

Aunt Jemina, I Am Innocent

hi im Yakko (2):

MonkeyMan576, alivechihiro

//next vote count
StrangerCoug (5):

DeltaWave

, Fresh,

Ankamius, Boonskiies, MonkeyMan576

Boonskiies (3):

Elyse

,

T S O

, StrangerCoug
Elyse (2): Aunt Jemina,

I Am Innocent

Sky_Paladin (2):

Pine

, PeregrineV
I Am Innocent (1):

massive

alivechihiro (1):

Jaqen Hghar

I could buy SC is scum from the second tally; the IAI wagon appeared from nowhere and it has two scum on it as the main counter wagon to both Elyse and SC. Scum want votes there; probably the best argument for scum ZZZX since his vote vanishes by the next tally also.

However, the big difference between tally number 2 and tally number 3 is that while the SC wagon remains at the same count (albeit with some different names), the two scums voting on the counterwagon mysteriously vanished.

If scum were trying to save SC from a day 1 lynch, the sudden abandonment of the IAI wagon to just vote apparently randomly is a bizarre way to do it. They, really, should have gone for the comparatively easy wagon of Boon, or myself. Otherwise, they would have bussed SC all the way to the supermarket.

//Tally 4
StrangerCoug (5):

DeltaWave

, Fresh,

Ankamius, Boonskiies, MonkeyMan576

Boonskiies (3):

Elyse

,

T S O

, StrangerCoug
Elyse (2):

Aunt Jemina, I Am Innocent

Sky_Paladin (2):

Kthxbye

, PeregrineV
I Am Innocent (1):

massive

alivechihiro (1):

Jaqen Hghar

Note that by this time, there are 0 scums voting for SC (unless Fresh is scum, which I highly doubt) and scum are everywhere else but on the SC wagon. Not even Jagen, our super scum busser, is voting SC.

Yet let's look at the next tally, when the Boon wagon suddenly spikes.

//Next tally
Boonskiies (6):

Elyse

,

T S O

, StrangerCoug,

Aunt Jemina, Ankamius, MonkeyMan576

alivechihiro (2):

Jaqen Hghar

,

Sky_Paladin

Jaqen Hghar (2):

alivechihiro, DeltaWave

MonkeyMan576 (2):

hi im Yakko, Boonskiies

I Am Innocent (1):

massive

All those names that joined were town names. Scum didn't lift a finger to help or harm SC.

Sky_Paladin · Tue Jun 16, 2015 7:16 pm

It will take time for me to review and draft a play-by-play. While I'm doing that, it would be fantastic if SC could spend some time actually addressing the situation himself!

Sky_Paladin · Wed Jun 17, 2015 1:50 am

Perhaps you could elaborate on your scum reads, then, and show me how it's supposed to be done.

Sky_Paladin · Wed Jun 17, 2015 5:07 am

SC, if the next post out of you isn't addressing the cases on you, or at least making some effort to explain why you think Peregrine is scum, I'm hammering you. Quit fooling around.

Sky_Paladin · Wed Jun 17, 2015 11:18 am

Scum are never going to hit you or Peregrine, inte. There is literally no reason for you to avoid sharing "what you noticed" with the class.
As it stands, it seems you've backed away from the one bit of actual content you have.

Perfectly happy to wait for ZZZX to do something since we have five days left. After all, he's been promising content all game now; let's not take away this precious chance.

Very disappointed in SC for basically just giving up, regardless of alignment. I don't recall you laying out a case on PV or doing anything at all really.

ZZZX, time frame on your "catch up?"

Sky_Paladin · Wed Jun 17, 2015 11:19 am

2 days, huh? I guess we can spend some of that in night phase.

I'll be back in an hour to hammer if there's nothing else.

Sky_Paladin · Wed Jun 17, 2015 3:08 pm

Sure.

I just went through with Peregrine/SC iso. There's plenty of things that could come from scum Peregrine (his attacks on me when I was pushing for a massive lynch, for example, but that's consistent with his push on me day 1 after his interactions with 4burner).

My question is:

In 2677 you said:

Will look at PeregrineV.

There five players for you to choose from.
You have very, very few interactions with PV (and all of those are on day 1). Why did you ONLY look at PeregrineV during this day phase?

Sky_Paladin · Wed Jun 17, 2015 4:50 pm

Thanks.

Sadly, I don't see any interest in players lynching outside of the pool of (StrangeCoug) this day phase. I'm not entirely sold either way.

I think that ZZZX, who's entire content this game has been promising to provide content and then failing to do so; failed to be present during any of the critical game moments (decision between Elyse/TSO, decision between massive/Boon); active in other places yet fails to be so here...is a much better chance to flip scum. The fact that both inte and ZZZX seem to 'forget' we have a whole bunch of confirmed town could be a coincidence, but probably not.

I can agree that Peregrine at least was on the wrong side of some lynches and there's a good argument that he tried to derail the massive/boon lynch by putting up a third player (me), however he's been trying to lynch me since day 1 so I don't see that as a strong case on it's own.

VOTE: StrangeCoug

Not my preferred lynch by a long shot, but then again, if we'd done what I'd wanted we'd have lynched MonkeyMan day 1, TSO day 2, and Kthxbye day 3. Let's see if the crowd is right.

Sky_Paladin · Wed Jun 17, 2015 7:03 pm

Goddamn I knew it .___.

Sky_Paladin · Wed Jun 17, 2015 7:35 pm

If SC flips town, I'd have inte and ZZZX fight it out to stay who sees in the game.

Not really interested in Fresh or Garmr as lynches, as explained in my lengthy walls. Peregrine has some suspicious moves.

I'll probably roll with this:
Garmr->Fresh->Peregrine->inte/ZZZX

Although I'll review SC in detail if he does flip scum.

Sky_Paladin · Sun Jun 21, 2015 12:38 pm

I am gunsmith x3 btw, I can check if someone has a power role or not. and to be honest early on saved it for if i ever needed it but I never found a chance to use it and find it useful. so I literally have no results what so ever

Am I the only one who finds this claim completely bonkers?

You had a list of six names to check two night phases ago, and a list of five names last night, with the added emphasis that you are one of those names, so you should 'know' that two of the remaining four names to check are scum. If you'd checked one name last night and one name the night before, the game would be over.

I just find it more likely that you're totes scum o/

I'd like a claim from inte, also.

Sky_Paladin · Sun Jun 21, 2015 1:22 pm

We actually have to lynch ZZZX this phase for (other reasons) but I can't explain (other reasons) until we have inte's claim.

Sky_Paladin · Sun Jun 21, 2015 2:14 pm

Your activity has significantly stepped up since even the most basic pressure has gone your way. This shows the same self-focused scum attitude that inte shares. The correct procedure is to lynch you and reflect on your words if you do flip green.

I also have role related reasons to think you are scum, but I need inte's claim before I can go ahead with that.

Sky_Paladin · Sun Jun 21, 2015 2:30 pm

I'm not really interested in what you were in other games or whatever meta you want to spout.

I am interested in you putting out fantastic cases as to why (anybody that isn't you) is probably scum, preferably stuff that hasn't been said by other players already.

You allegedly had the means to town clear yourself as well as end the game by now, and you've sat on your hands. You continually failed to appear at critical moments of the game and repeatedly failed to meet your own promises to provide content.

Mainly I'm seeing an entirely self-centered/selfish play style that is completely in line with the scum mentality. If you can persuade me otherwise, it will be by providing good evidence that at least one other player is more likely to be scum than you.

Sky_Paladin · Sun Jun 21, 2015 2:47 pm

You're actually admitting to lurking now? Brilliant. Up until now, you just said you were really busy.

VOTE: ZZZX

I think you're trying to bait me to provide the role related reason for thinking you are scum before inte's claim, so that inte can claim safely, and I'll have none of it, thank you.

Inte, please claim.

Sky_Paladin · Sun Jun 21, 2015 3:55 pm

Did you hit your head or something?

You're too busy to review the game and make a case, yet got time to talk smack and screw around. I see how it is.

Sky_Paladin · Sun Jun 21, 2015 4:08 pm

Its because

You

agree that it is so

, yet blame another person (who is confirmed town) for your conduct.

Take responsibility for your own actions!

Sky_Paladin · Sun Jun 21, 2015 5:21 pm

Your claim, good sir.

Sky_Paladin · Tue Jun 23, 2015 12:13 pm

If we need votes on inte to get a claim from inte, I'll get behind that.
UNVOTE: ZZZX
VOTE: inte

Sky_Paladin · Tue Jun 23, 2015 1:11 pm

UNVOTE: inte

Sky_Paladin · Tue Jun 23, 2015 1:14 pm

Fresh: I somehow missed a whole page where inte claimed. Now reviewing and posting my thoughts.

Sky_Paladin · Tue Jun 23, 2015 1:28 pm

Out of the remaining few players, we have:
Garmr -> claims roled.
Fresh -> ???
inte -> VT
Peregrine -> roled.
ZZZX - 'gunsmith'.

ZZZX's claimed role reports 'roled' or 'not roled' (if I understand correctly).

However, not all the scum flips we've seen so far were roled (Jagen was mafia goon). So we can't actually use ZZZX's ability to satisfactorily evaluate if any of the remaining players are scum or not, since even if we let him live and he reported "Player x lied about their claim", we'll still have to lynch ZZZX first to validate his info.

The role would have been useful if it had been used earlier in the game and was now able to make counterclaims. As it lies, it has little tactical application unless ZZZX is actually town and actually makes it to LYLO.

This is not the first time we've seen a 'three shot' role; Elyse claimed this earlier in the game. I, and others, made the argument that we should leave Elyse alive to use her abilities. This was a mistake.

VOTE: ZZZX

Boon, I'm not really interested in a Fresh wagon because I rate him at a higher town-contribution-index than others, plus he left a town wagon at a critical point that made Elyse the valid lynch earlier in the game. I'm not seeing scum!Fresh, but please feel free to explain it to me.

Sky_Paladin · Tue Jun 23, 2015 1:31 pm

The reason I wanted inte to claim was because if ZZZX is town, scum!inte would know that if ZZZX was left alive and checked him, he would have to give an honest claim or get lynched later.

If there is a scum role remaining (Peregrine claims it's a ninja), we now know it isn't inte.

It could be any of the other suspect players though!

Fresh, if you have anything useful to claim, now might be the time to do it.

Sky_Paladin · Tue Jun 23, 2015 1:57 pm

Also is there a reason to vote me instead of say, Inte who has done literally the same as me, just sugar coated as "activity?"

For me, it's for one simple reason, but there's a backstory, so bear with me.

When I was five years old, my parents divorced. Back in those days, divorces were exceptionally rare, very shameful things. I'm 35 now, so it was quite some time ago - 1985, in fact. Probably before most of you were born.

I ended up living with my mother, step father, and two younger brothers. But my Father kept on visiting and wanted to stay in contact with his kids.

My father often called us on the phone and made many promises. Promises that he would visit, send gifts, you know, the usual.
Except none of these things ever came to fruition.

Eventually when I was a little older, I had the opportunity to go and live with my father, and his new family, and see how things were from his side.

He had an incredible charisma and was able to influence people to a great degree.

I discovered that he was like this to everybody. He would say anything to get out of trouble, and say anything to get his way.

However, he would never do anything except exactly what he wanted.

I learned that I don't need that kind of person in my life. Somebody who talks, talks, talks, but never does. As the saying goes, 'actions speak louder than words'.

***

I could ignore that you did absolutely nothing of merit this game so far, if you had used your role to some degree and could now provide helpful information.
I could ignore that you did not use your role at all, if you had been active in thread and had voted on some wagons - perhaps questionable votes, yes, but voted nonetheless.
And I could ignore all of these things if you suddenly came out with cases as to who could be scum. In fact, I begged you to do this only a few days ago.

Instead what I see is a player entirely concerned only with their own survival, who will burn any player if it means getting one more day of life.

We don't need that kind of person in our town. It almost doesn't matter if you're scum or not.

inte never promised activity or content. You did. That activity appeared when you became in danger, but you've still failed to provide content.

So the difference for me, and why I want to lynch you over inte, is that you broke your -repeated- promises to provide content.

Sky_Paladin · Tue Jun 23, 2015 2:53 pm

I don't recall Fresh claiming a power role?

Sky_Paladin · Wed Jun 24, 2015 2:43 am

hes been caught in a fucking lie and you nerds still think i'm not confirmed town by now

Confirmed town has always been a flipped cop with an innocent on player x. In this game, our 'cop' was MonkeyMan, and three scum corpses.

Even though I like Garmr/Fresh/Peregrine and ranked them at a higher town index than you previously, I don't by any means consider them confirmed town. They are 'probably town'.

Some of the points I raised against ZZZX don't apply to you. For example, you were present and voted the right way on the critical lynches of this game. You have maintained a generally constant activity and didn't suddenly spring in to action and post a whole bunch when you were being wagoned. So I am feeling better and better about lynching ZZZX over you.

If ZZZX flips scum, I won't auto-vote you (inte), and will re-review Garmr/Fresh/Peregrine for their interactions for the last two day phases. For now, I'm unhappy that they've barely posted at all :/

Sky_Paladin · Wed Jun 24, 2015 3:08 am

I can't read intentions. I'm a soulless automaton that doesn't understand emotion or humor. I only understand votes and cases.

Sky_Paladin · Wed Jun 24, 2015 3:11 am

Am I supposed to claim or something?

It's up to you. I think we're going to lynch ZZZX this day phase, and we'll probably have to get your claim in the next day phase.

I assume if you had information that could break the game, or make this day phase easier, you would have shared it already, or plan to do so very shortly.

Sky_Paladin · Wed Jun 24, 2015 5:15 am

Sky you can't read me for a shit. Let's face it

Perhaps if you had posted more earlier in the game, when your alignment wasn't under so much question, I would have more of a sample size to go by.

Sky_Paladin · Wed Jun 24, 2015 5:21 am

The current vote tally:
inte (2): Klingoncelt, ZZZX
ZZZX (3): PeregrineV, Garmr, Sky_Paladin
PeregrineV (1): inte
Fresh (1): Boonskies
Not Voting (1): Fresh

Fresh - still no vote. What are you thinking?

Sky_Paladin · Sat Jun 27, 2015 1:40 pm

Apparently my reads are terrible so I would love it if, in addition to claiming, the four of you can explain who you think is mafia, and why.

Sky_Paladin · Sun Jun 28, 2015 12:54 am

@Mod

- is it LYLO?

Sky_Paladin · Sun Jun 28, 2015 2:04 am

Also, while it probably doesn't matter, the

phase timer is about 11 days shorter than expected

.

Sky_Paladin · Sun Jun 28, 2015 3:25 am

@mod

- is it *YLO?

Sky_Paladin · Mon Jun 29, 2015 12:33 pm

Garmr's activity had completely dried up, so I look forward to seeing what their replacement does.

Sky_Paladin · Mon Jun 29, 2015 2:19 pm

Welcome to the game o/

We had a sensor (Monkeyman) pick up 3 scum voting for Yakko on day 1. We've since killed off all the scum amongst that group, the remaining survivors are Klingon and myself.

Sky_Paladin · Mon Jun 29, 2015 2:51 pm

I'm mainly thinking that because KlingonCelt and I were the primary active forces in the preceding day phase, and I was mainly leading the push for ZZZX, we didn't allow scum to show themselves.

So I wanted to lay low for a chunk of this day phase and give inte/Garmr/Fresh/Peregrine a chance to warrant their continued existence in the game with minimal hand-holding or guidance.

Sky_Paladin · Mon Jun 29, 2015 4:10 pm

Please unvote, Klingon.

If it's LYLO and we're wrong, that's game over. No need to rush things.

Sky_Paladin · Tue Jun 30, 2015 5:04 pm

I wonder about the strategic value of a scum!PV claiming that he watched the player that was night killed and saw nothing. He could just as easily have fake-claimed some other role with zero risk.

Sky_Paladin · Tue Jun 30, 2015 6:26 pm

I would like to hear from Inte, Fresh, Salamence20, and PeregrineV.

This times lots.

I think there is 1 mafia left given that there hasnt been a wagon on inte/PV.

If all of the non-confirmed town voted for the same person, that's hammer. But that requires the player to vote for themselves, so it's not going to happen.

The votes that matter will be either Klingon or my own vote, since it's confirmed town, and if we're wrong, scum will jump on that.

That's why I want confirmed town to let the dust settle amongst the four unconfirmed town. So far I'm not seeing a lot of dust.

Fresh/Salamence slots in particular dragging their feet. Yes, PV and inte aren't doing anything. That's no excuse for you two. Salamance, how is your catch-up coming along? And while I think you're the most town out of the bunch, we still need a claim from you now that the others have chimed in, too.

Sky_Paladin · Wed Jul 01, 2015 2:09 am

His recent push at Inte suggesting he use a double vote to hammer came off as strange and unnecessary and rubbed me the wrong way.

That DOES deserve further explanation. Especially in light of inte's VT claim.

Sky_Paladin · Wed Jul 01, 2015 1:52 pm

I saw no point in Sky asking Salamence to claim unless he was hoping to catch him in a lie.

^^this

While I viewed Garmr's slot favourably, I haven't warmed up to Salamence yet. I was hoping if Salamence was scum, his buddy might say "Garmr already claimed in (post)". It didn't pay off this time, but nothing ventured, nothing gained.

Sky_Paladin · Fri Jul 03, 2015 2:45 pm

Checking his post history, he hasn't actually been online for three days and hasn't been specifically avoiding this game.

A failure on Pv's behalf to post does not excuse Salamence/Fresh/inte to remain silent however.

Really surprised to see nothing of consequence yet from Sala.

Sky_Paladin · Sat Jul 04, 2015 4:31 pm

Perhaps we can wait for PV to get back and say his piece. We had a phase exension and no reason to rush.

Sky_Paladin · Sat Jul 04, 2015 4:35 pm

Did anybody have their vote stolen this day phase?
It seems like that's not the case. Was a vote stolen the day after Monkey Man died? I can't remember and I'm on my phone and can't check.

It would seem unlikely there is a "ninja votestealer" role, but more likely there is a ninja and a vote stealer.

However, it seems unlikely an unlimited shot ninja exists in a game with an odd night watcher.

I want to see PV's story. Please unvote, Klingon.

Sky_Paladin · Sun Jul 05, 2015 3:17 am

And that's why I'm waiting for PV's report.

Sky_Paladin · Mon Jul 06, 2015 1:46 am

That's kind of what I'm getting at. It's a bit rolespeccy, but I'm starting to agree with Sala that there's only four mafia, and the sudden disappearance of the vote stealer calls in to question the likelihood of there also being an unlimited shot scum ninja. Or, you know, the ability stops working in *YLO.

We're also getting pretty close to deadline and PV still hasn't checked in. I'm starting to run out of patience.

Sky_Paladin · Mon Jul 06, 2015 3:00 pm

T___T

If you were just going to hammer him when he showed up you might as well have done it a week ago when he wasn't around. Why would you kill him the minute he says he's available to post.

Oh well I guess we'll find out if that's game over or not.

Sky_Paladin · Mon Jul 06, 2015 3:47 pm

While I hope it's true, Fresh's hammer came pretty damn fast.

I think it's game over, and scum was inte and Fresh.

Sky_Paladin · Mon Jul 06, 2015 3:51 pm

Ughghhghg
I'm just paranoid, ok?

Sky_Paladin · Tue Jul 07, 2015 12:18 pm

Ah, rats.

Thanks for hosting the game, Jason.

Now to sulk and lick my wounds :C