Inorganic Chemistry [GAME OVER, SCUM WIN]

[mastin2]

VOTE: Lying Cat

I repeat: if Lying Cat were scum, I would be dead by now.

Ok first things first, Ari flipped scum with a role. Most likely anyone with a role that's not inventor is scum and it's unlikely but not impossible for a scum to be an inventor.

Agreed. (Yes, Titus, I'm actually AGREEING with you because, surprise, I'm not deliberately taking the opposite stance as you! The point here is basically my own thought, too.)

I see three major reasons to kill Flubber in light of Ari's flip. First, scum found out that Flubber was the cop inventor. Second, scum shot him because they couldn't lynch him. Third, to frame someone to lynch. Figuring out which one of these motives is best. That's a bit harder to do right now, but if we keep these in mind, we may be able to eliminate these.

I think the ZX shot makes it preeeeeeeeeetty dang obvious which it was. Unless you can find a common link between ZX and Flubber about lynch-framing (I'm sure not gonna bother to check), the FAR more likely explanation was PR-hunting. I'm ruling out the not-lynching option, because, duh, Flub had support to be lynched every day that could have gone through at any time; the only thing that'd save Flub would be a PR claim, which brings us back to the first. They might not have known, but if they at least suspected, then that'd be reason enough for most scum players to shoot. (I mean, my style is to gun for town players such as Nacho and LC with my nightkills rather than players who might be PRs but whose deaths are worthless otherwise, but I'm by far not in the majority when it comes to that style of "Screw the risks of PRs!" nightplay.)

Which probably means that both the remaining inventors are at risk, too. The scum may not know who they are, but if they have suspicions about it, then bam. Helps us immensely if they're WRONG, of course (particularly if they're 'scumreading' the inventors, thus, less likely to NK them), but if they're RIGHT, that means that the inventors need to make their time count, both play and action-wise. (That being said, now MIGHT be a good time for the other inventor to claim. It would have the negative side-effect of locking the commute-inventor onto them, but it'd guarantee that third invention would last until the scum kill the commute inventor. Basically, the commute inventor probably doesn't have even the slightest clue who the third inventor is, whereas the scum actively hunting the third inventor probably do, if their Flub kill is any indication. Totally the third inventor's call, though we can discuss the pros/cons in more detail regardless.)

[mastin2]

Whatever. That backfired. I'm the one who gave you that invention. I figured the fact that I claimed to receive the third invention, the unknown one, and targeted you with it, should have made it clear to you, who I'm certain is town, that I was the inventor, and thus you'd know to not counterclaim me. I didn't properly predict your reaction. I can tell what the invention is if you'd like more proof, but I don't really want to unless I have to.

Titus, Cerb, you're both idiots.

Guess that makes the decision on who the commute inventor's going to target easy, though. (On the bright side, Cerb is someone I sincerely doubt the commute inventor would have thought to target, thus, meaning that without claiming, Cerb was at risk of death anyway. On the negative side, by ensuring the survival of the third inventor, the commute inventor is sacrificing their ability to realistically stop a nightkill. The only way they could is if they went "Hero-doc" on the town, wifomed the scum, and correctly predicted the scum's nightkill target, but that is a

hilariously

bad idea.)

[mastin2]

aristophanes was mac

And I was wrong on him. But being wrong does not make me scum. If it did, then you'd be scum for how hard BOTH heads of yours pushed hiplop, when hiplop was hilariously obviously town. Obviously, you know that you're town. Therefore you know that being wrong on a read you're certain of is not by itself indicative of alignment. (No, being wrong about a player being town is not worse than being wrong about a player being scum. Being wrong about an alignment is being wrong about an alignment. See also the below.) You have to look at the reason

why

, the WAY the wrongness was, to find the driving motivation that lead to the incorrect conclusion, and it's by that metric you can tell.

Basic mafia 101 here.

TSO got the Cop, debated whether to hit Wicked or Flubber, happily hit Wicked. Town.

UNVOTE: Wickedestjr.

TSO's town.

If TSO were scum, he'd never claim the cop. Why? Because with the cop inventor dead, there'd be nobody in the game who would know he was the one who got it. Therefore, there would be no obligation to claim the result, as in prior days. "But why not claim the result for the towncred?"

Simple, really. Because the plan, as it was yesterday, was to

lynch the last recipient of the cop invention

. I.e., TSO. By claiming it, he's painting a big giant red flag over his head screaming, "LYNCH ME!" Now I admittedly haven't seen TSO's scumgame in a while, but I'm pretty sure he's not the type to pull such a gambit where he deliberately puts himself at risk of being lynched, JUST for the sake of MAYBE getting towncred. Risk-reward benefit along with what I'm presuming is a massive ego as scum (TSO's free to correct me if I'm wrong) would both pressure him into being the type to value his life such that he wouldn't carelessly throw caution to the wind and be so reckless as to do that.

Even if I'm wrong. Even IF TSO is scum, who thought that was worth it. He'd never dare to claim an innocent on his own partner. Heck, claiming an innocent outside the chain is itself a large gambit if he's scum, but on a partner? I just don't see it. It's like an Inu-Yasha 3-x Innocent Child ploy in scope. Yeah, that's probably not the best example given that it actually, well, worked, but it VERY easily could have backfired...and almost did. Twice, if I recall. Maybe more times than that! It relied on everything going right (it did), on town acting exactly as they needed to (they almost didn't), and so on and so forth. Basically, it was an incredibly-high risk for something that produced a decent reward, but which I don't see any sane scum player realistically considering trying to repeat.

Thus, by proxy, Wicked is town too.

I'm...not really sure where I want to vote, now, though. Like, my ika and vezok suspicions are

there

, but they were in a whole 'nother league compared to Wicked. And with Wicked town, that means there needs to be at least one scum on the Aristophanes wagon (because, I repeat, LC is town), and I haven't the slightest clue who it'd be. (I mean, there are certain people I think it wouldn't be, but not really people I think it would be. )

I'll need to do more analysis after I get caught up.

[mastin2]

So, Flubber is town, i'm town, Sonic is town. Flum/Constantine is town. Those are the current assumptions I have in looking at this.
So in the pool of TSO, Kari/PV, Nacho, Jaqen, i expect 1 scum.

I'm pretty sure we can eliminate TSO. I thought that both wagons at the end of the day were on town (thus Kari was town), but Aristophanes flipped scum so take that townread on Kari with a grain of salt. Nacho's slot has been pretty town, and while I admit that he himself isn't as town as he could be (in particular, were he to bus, this is exactly the way I would see him doing it), frankly if he were scum I'd expect to be dead by now in a similar vein to why I'd expect to be dead if LC were scum.

When it comes to Jaqen, there's a bit of a divide. On the one hand, this sort of bus is the kind of thing Jaqen can, has, and will pull off if the need arises to keep towncred: with reads getting progressively worse and worse, and showing up via flips/conftown as being such, Jaqen will gain a worse and worse rap, arising suspicion regardless of how town Jaqen's individual posting may be. (See also, YCBAIII.) On the other hand, if he were scum, I wouldn't expect him to have actually

hammered

. See also, the townread I had on Egg in Team Mafia for that same reason (there was no need to hammer), combined with the previously-mentioned YCBAIII where his unvote of a scumbuddy helped ensure a no-lynch.

One of them basically HAS to be scum, but I'm not sure which. REALLY not sure which. Like, I'm trying to compile a most-likely to least-likely list in my head, between the three of KaragineV/Nacho/Jaqen, but the order keeps changing. Kari/PV as most, then Nacho as most, Jaqen as most, Kari as least, Nacho as least, the order is changing by the second. And I really can't figure it out right now. I REALLY don't think LC is scum (the only way that all three of them could be town), and I'm basically clearing TSO, but I'm just not seeing which of them it is.

...Regardless, though.
You're probably right about one thing.
There's not gonna be TWO scum among them.
So by default, that means both of vezok and ika are scum, thus, I can vote either of them.

VOTE: vezokpiraka.
Easily could switch to ika, though!

[mastin2]

No, it's because the people i feel who are most likely to be scum on the aristophanes wagon are yourself and Nacho, so I feel there's a good chance that you're scum there, combined with the added bonus of chain confirmation stuff.

Like I said about TSO, preeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeetty dang sure he's town.

When it comes to Nacho, you have my permission to lynch his ass if I die, but not a moment before then. I'm fairly confident that if Nacho's scum, he'll show his hand.

My vote on the Aristophanes wagon was exactly the sort of play I wouldn't make as scum - it contributed to the death of an important scum role and it gained me no towncred. Look to the Kari wagon for scum.

The further you are from the start of the Aristo wagon, the more likely you are to be scum on it. Flubber would be borderline confirmed town if he hadn't flipped, I am town, and Kari is also borderline confirmed town.

:goodposting:

Let's lynch cerb. This shit is unbelievable. He bullshit claims he got the third invention and is counterclaimed immediately by titus. Then somehow the weak cop goes to TSO who mysteriously investigates some other than cerb. And our weak cop dies. I wonder why I wanted cerb dead earlier. Seeing how both him and TSO were on the Aristo wagon I have the feeling scum already know all the inventors and don't really need the role cop anymore.

vote cerb

Yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeaah, vezok's scum, here.

[mastin2]

Are we ready for massclaim?

And out the commute inventor, the only thing keeping the third inventor alive at this point?

AND after we JUST lynched the SCUM EFFECTIVELY-ROLECOP?

HECK no.

Wait until the commute inventor has died, and/or until we're a day from lylo before that, at the earliest.

Make the scum guess at who the commute inventor is. As long as the commute inventor lives, so too does Cerb, and thus, so too does the third invention get sent out. If scum fear the third invention, they either have to risk that the commute-inventor is gambiting elsewhere and lose their nightkill if they're wrong (which assuming any level of competency from the commute inventor, they will be), OR they have to kill the commute inventor FIRST to eliminate the third invention.

Speeding up the process is literally the LAST thing we should be doing.

sthar, gamebreaking is your thing. What on EARTH is going through your head that could make you think that now of all times could POSSIBLY be a good time to massclaim?

[mastin2]

I strongly agree with Sonic on Mastina being scum here, but for different reasons.

Titus.

Given your other stances in the game.

Compared to your read on me.

You are an absolute

idiot

.

I could say more to explain why, but that'd make ME the idiot instead.

I'm town. And when you realize why, you're going to facepalm epically for not realizing sooner.

We lost an inventor. That's great...

I miss Flum.

(I mean, yeah, the scumread on me was annoying, butstill...I miss Flum all the same.)

Probably a near-guarantee that the commute-invent given to Constantine was given when Constantine was still Shakira, with the commute inventor simply not changing the target after the replace for whatever various reason. (Because, let's be honest, no offense meant to you, Constantine, but conftown be damned, you're not an appetizing kill target. Shakira Confirmed was. You, not so much, so it was a mistake to give the commute there.)

Vote: Cerberus

What on earth was that reaction to being counterclaimed?

Know what?

I decided.

Not on who the scum is. Still not quite certain on that. It could be Nacho, it could be KaragineV. In theory it could even be both unlikely as that may be. But while there's reason that Nacho could be scum, and reason that PV could be scum, regardless of Jaqen's content, I just don't think he's nearly as likely to be scum, so I've decided on who the scum isn't. (Well, mostly. Not entirely committing to the read, yet, but...basically, Jaqen is firmly in the least-likely spot now as far as chances between the three being scum go.)

...Then again...

VOTE: Cerberus

...But at least his

looks

legitimate.

^ I don't like that reaction.

For the record, neither do I. (This is where I would normally insert a disclaimer about, "I'm agreeing with Wicked, he must be scum", buuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuut...... )

Actually, never mind, Aristophanes voted Kari instantly and Kari didn't vote back.

Actually, that'd be a point against Kari, not in favor of her, because unless she is ALSO a scum PR (in which case, lol), Aristophanes the scum PR voting for Kari makes sense to survive, and Kari not voting Aristophanes makes sense if Kari is a Goon being less valuable than him.

Doesn't necessarily mean she's scum (she

did

end up on the wagon, after all, a point in her favor), but certainly doesn't make her town.

[mastin2]

Can we lynch mastina

You'd be better off trying to lynch Cerb.

Gladiate Cerebus

Jaqen, I swear to god, this better be a gambit.

Because if you seriously just gladiated our third inventor.

I'd consider lynching you on policy alone, townread and hatred of policy lynches be damned.
THAT anti-town an action. Dead serious.

I really, REALLY need to write an MD thread about hero-vigging (AKA, zero-vigging), which gladiate is generally considered a variant of...FOR GOOD REASON. You are never the 5%. (Hint: 5% isn't rate of failure.)

[mastin2]

Lynching him for the sole purpose of determining my alignment is even more horrible because it's possible for him to be scum telling the truth about his result.

Also, probably a bad idea to point this out, but with the commute inventor otherwise obliged (protecting Cerb), lynching TSO to conftown Wicked means scum can just lynch TSO, kill Wicked, essentially identical to if we had just lynched a mason to confirm a masonry exists, with scum killing the now-conftown-for-100% mason.

(Btw, basically agreeing with all of Wicked's posting at this point. Why the hell wasn't he this good

before

he was conftown? Woulda saved BUNDLE-loads of trouble.)

I don't see why another lurkfuck does nothing but kind of bus another lurkfuck partner.

When the lurkfuck busser is a PR compared to the other lurkfuck likely not being one?

This feels like white knighting a town player as scum by using thinly-stretched logic.

[mastin2]

Well. That looks pretty fucking town now then.

'Course it is. I said the commute inventor was town.

That being said, after Flum left the slot, Sonic Boom was probably the better commute target. Wouldn't have actually stopped the nightkill (because, well, duh, that'd require the commute inventor to have a townread on Flubb which basically nobody did), but OBJECTIVELY speaking,

probably

had a higher chance of protecting against the nightkill. (The info of knowing the third invention < the strength of the player in the slot. SC+knowing third invention > SB, but Constantine+knowing third invention < SB*.)

*Just for the record, it'd be a difficult call to make, but overall, disregarding the knowledge of the third invention and going purely off of player strength, I'd probably rate the two conftown as SB > SC, but only slightly so.

I don't feel that one dead town for one conftown is a particularly great trade-off for us.

(Particularly given that TSO is a competent player, very likely to be town, and that the conftown could then immediately be killed off thanks to a lack of protection.)

And also why on earth are you looking for scum on the Aristo wagon...?

Because it's basically impossible for there not to be at least one on there? (And even if it wasn't...well, when was the last time an all-town wagon formed on scum? It's no mean feat, especially with a viable counterwagon. It's often scum bussing that condemns the lynched scum player, not solid town play. So aside from the players making it nearly impossible, by sheer statistical probabilities, it'd be incredibly improbable.)

[mastin2]

the pseudo-investigative inventor has been outed.

But won't die so long as the commute inventor lives.

Which will be...for a much, much shorter time if massclaim goes through.

Sure, yeah, if the commuter was among a name likely to be scum like, say, vezok or ika, then them claiming would be good, but given that's basically without a doubt not the case? Not worth it.

Cerberus v666 - 3 (vezokpiraka, Nachomamma8, Jaqen Hghar)

There pretty much

has

to be a scum in there.

Jaqen, I'd move to mastin maybe.

...

VOTE: Nachomamma8.

[mastin2]

Why are votes on mastin terrrible?

Because, quite obviously, they are?

Why is Mastin STILL a townread in spite of generating no content or analysis after the first day?

Oi! I've been giving PLENTY of content. I didn't give much for half of D1, and half of today, maybe during some other points of the game too, but I'm gonna steal a line from Plotinus:
Life suck is not indicative of alignment.

(...And then modify it to say, "...Unless it's an indication of being town." )

^more excuses to Backburner the game.

Yes. Aaaaand?

Organic Chemistry called.
It wants its Mastin the PROTECTIVE PR INVENTOR lynch back. (Hey, guess what the main point used against me that game was? Guess what the main point against me in every. damn. game. more or less has been? Oh, no. Not being wrong. Heavens no. People have wised up to that by now and stopped expecting me to be a scumhunting god. Know what the main accusation against me is? Near-100% of the time, overwhelmingly, across many games most if not all of which I'm town in? Lurking in some form or another. Organic Chemistry, cause of my lynch. Signs and Void, an incredibly-frustrating moment. Those are just two off the top of my head. There are BUNDLE-loads more. Lurking != scum for me. It's not exactly much of a towntell since I DO lurk as scum, but it's certainly not a scumtell. I, very frequently, place one game if not multiple games on the backburner, off of my motivation and time commitments. Because, yes, I'm not neurologically normal. I get depressed. I get manic. When I'm manic I might hyper-focus on one game. When I'm depressed I might neglect one game in particular. It happens. But it is never. NEVER. an indication of my alignment. It is, always. Always. ALWAYS. Because of me. It's a health-indicator tell. A mental-state tell. A tell about how I am doing in real life. NOT a tell about my alignment.)

[mastin2]

I'm suprised mafia was able to hit all the inventors

They haven't yet, but if CERTAIN people got their way, they would. (AKA, if the commute inventor was made public.)

Vote: mastin2

This+the push on Cerb beforehand = Nacho is pushing a scum agenda during the day. There are bundleloads of conftown in the game. The scum literally can't kill all of them. Their only hope at winning is to lynch a player that is conftown.

And this looks like Nacho doing EXACTLY that.

[mastin2]

mastin2 - 3 (Sonic Boom, Wickedestjr, Nachomamma8)

And again, to reiterate, Nacho is scum.

[mastin2]

Hey Mastin, I like when you're actually playing the game. You should keep doing that.

Oh, hey. That reminds me of another game I was inactive and did nothing as town basically the entire game: We Didn't Playtest This. Admittedly, my record in a hydra is VERY much provably worse than my record soloing (I even flaked out of Ikaruga I think it was called, modded by Bulbazak with Antihero as my partner), so a game where I was in a three-headed hydra is understandably going to be much worse than normal, butstill goes to show my point stands. I go inactive as town. It's not the best thing. It sucks. For me more than anyone else, even though it's very much an annoying thing for the town to put up with. But it's (usually) not permanent, I (usually) get out of it, and that's why I (generally) don't consider it actually worth replacing out even though I (sometimes) ponder the possibility. My alignment regardless, it drags my team down, but there's nothing I can do about it except fight to get out of it, which I (usually) succeed at. I'd get rid of it if I could, but obviously, this is not something I willingly enter into, so it's not exactly something I can consciously discard. (There's a reason that I stressed in my Academy lecture to Ank that I myself suffer from the problem, so I'm not the best one suited to combating it.) Basically, my options are to not play at all, or play even though there's the risk of it, and (generally) people seem to find it (overall) worth the pain when it does happen for me to play. (If they didn't, I wouldn't get so many invites to play games. But I get plenty, including for this game.)

Because there's no possile way that one is tricking you with WIFOM, or if you prefer Occam, that you're scum together...

Pretty much, yeah!

[mastin2]

You can't say that, when right above you said your activity isn't an alignment tell either way.

Ah, but I can, because the accusation was, "You're inactive, must be scum", essentially, so I was saying in my response, essentially, "Sure I do! But I also go inactive as town. In fact, I go inactive as town moreso than as scum

(mainly because I draw town a disproportionately large number of times)

, even though it's not really a towntell because I do it as scum too."

(Parenthetical part not included originally, at least not in that quote, but I've said it before if not here then elsewhere and elsewhen, which to this day remains true. I don't draw scum often; the VAST majority of my games are as town, and thus, most of what I do I do mainly as town because of that disproportionately large amount of towngames. Like, you're supposed to average 25-33% scum, but I'm lucky if I get half that. Maybe one out of eight games I might draw scum of some kind. One out of six if you push it real hard. But nowhere near the 1/4-1/3 that I'm supposed to get.)

[mastin2]

So it's now

anti

town to be bringing attention to a very scum ISO and doubly wishing to kill that one now that is claiming a power role, vis-a-vis scumpr? A man must needs walking through that one!

It's very anti-town to gladiate one of our only PRs, yes.

VOTE: ika
Fuck this. ika

STILL

isn't contributing his thoughts on anything at all. Time to policy lynch his ass.

Sure thing, I'm in full agreement.
VOTE: ika,
But just one thing: make sure that if I die, you power-lynch Nacho tomorrow. No excuses, no justification, no letting him worm his way out of it, no claim to save him, no pro-town play to make you doubt that he's scum. If I'm dead, lynch him,

period

.

[mastin2]

So why should I turbo lynch Nacho if you flip?

Because fuck your arrogance in insisting that this is a game of "you've been right/wrong" (when YOU HAVE BEEN WRONG YOURSELF!), I know how to read Nacho if given time, I think he's scum but while I'm pretty sure I'm not absolutely sure and IF I DIE, THAT SHOULD TELL YOU SOMETHING.

[mastin2]

I'm sorry, my attention is elsewhere at the moment.
I realize this game's KINDA close to deadline, but...have my word that I'll be here well before then. I'm just devoting my effort to somewhere that needs it more. (I obviously can't say more, else I obviously would.)

Uhh...think of this as being a sort-of Organic Chemistry: the original moment. (Might help you to realize what BIG TIME MAJOR GAME of mine was running contemporary to the original Organic Chemistry.) By which, I mean, I'm putting this game off, but I DO have reasons.

[mastin2]

Alright, I should have the time for this, now.

Assuming my mental state holds, I should be good to go.

[mastin2]

(1) If Anti were going to give us an extension then he would have given it by then. We needed three replacements several days before deadline hit. How long was he going to wait? Five hours before deadline- 'oh by the way, here's more time'.

Yeah? He's the mod. His game, his rules. If he needs replacements (especially if two of the slots he needs replaced are lynch candidates), deadline extension is the natural course of action. What kind of idiot mod do you have to be to

not

grant an extension when there's replacements at deadline?

(2) I advocated Kari over Aristo just like you did

No, I advocated they were both town. Was wrong, sure, but I was advocating for your lynch.

(Why is it that all the players that are stubborn about me are town? Signs and Void, now this game. )

Reconvinced myself that Nacho is town...

This is a perfect opportunity to show me where my Nacho read is wrong, but raging against me is a wholly ineffective way to get me to listen to you.

That's the thing, I'm not 100% in the Nacho read. I

think

he's scum, I don't know for sure he's scum, there's some things which suggest it and some which might suggest he's not, I haven't had the chance to analyze in detail and really, really think about it, but presumably, I'll get a chance sooner rather than later. (Can't stay in this funk forever.)

...Yet if I die BEFORE I get that chance, well, there's your answer.

Of all the players in the game, none have more reason to nightkill me than Nacho. He might let me live because I'm going all bravado, "LYNCH NACHO IF I DIE!", but

I want him to let me live

. Basically, it's one gigantic game of wifom which I'm trying to be on the winning side of.

Let's say we lynch ika today - what's the likelihood of you getting night killed tonight?

If Nacho's scum?

Pretty damn high.

Otherwise?

Who the HECK would kill off not-currently-confirmed-town for the sake of framing Nacho, when there's a dangerously-high number of them in the game? The only reason to not kill conftown is to hunt for the commute-inventor, which I admit is a good thing for us if scum do, but them targeting me would be a risk they most likely will deem they can't afford. (For obvious reasons, I can't say anymore; it's kinda tricky getting things worded right as it is. But basically, scum other than Nacho are likely not going to nightkill me; Scum including Nacho might not nightkill me, but are the group most likely TO nightkill me.)

[mastin2]

Unvote. Vote: ika

This is getting ridiculous. He needed rope a long time ago.

^Pretty much. I mean, when I think about it...the only thing I can think about when it comes to ika is that the only reason I didn't go after him sooner is that my reads were stronger elsewhere.

He's pretty much confscum in every possible way by now, so he makes a good lynch for today.

Do keep my words in mind in regards to Nacho, though, if I die.
Anyone else this game being scum you can catch.
Anyone else this game being scum you'll be able to find.
But if Nacho's scum, he WILL weasel his way out of it.

[mastin2]

My contribution so far has been rubbish due to two reasons; I was investing myself more in another game which I felt required my presence more than this game did.

This one I get. (Because, duh. Guilty as charged.) Second point, though, I'd make an argument to the contrary.

And by the way, reemphasizing, TSO is town.

[mastin2]

Like how much time? He's been here a month, and has 111 posts.

It's more a matter of...how do I explain it? This is a concept that I don't exactly have words for. It's not a matter of his posts in the game so much. So much as it is me, outside the game, honing in mentally on Nacho. It's something that takes a lot of focus. Some of it is based on the game content, yeah, but it's actually mostly based off of out-of-game contextual things: thinking about what Nacho's been like as of late (because his play, like every players', shifts with time), thinking about him as a person with things that should never change, thinking about general tells and whether said general tells are applicable to Nacho, trying to remember old Nacho tells and thinking about whether they may still hold validity or not, and I'm doing most of this in my head, supported by a little bit in the game thread.

And the picture I've got right now is that I

think

he's scum, but I'm not absolutely

sure

he is. Believe me, you'd know if I was. (I wouldn't accept an ika lynch, ika's probability of being scum be damned, if I was fully confident that Nacho was scum.)

[mastin2]

a man is also good with flash lynching (not wagoning, LYNCHING) naught-but-excuses.

I've had a very bad day.
So I'm going to keep things as civil as they can be.
And say, very politely...

Jaqen...fuck you.

That will be all. I'm not speaking about this again.

A man isnt trying to end this day before figuring out what Cerb is crumbing thats soooo "protown" that he cant share it

with

town, even though if what he's saying is true (and that one is actually town) he is dying tonight and we are knowing by tomorrow anyhow.

Commute. inventor.

You can be pretty dang sure the commute inventor is protecting Cerb tonight.

[mastin2]

I don't like PeregrineV's vote for TSO.

Nor I.

And, for the record, TSO's defense of the ika wagon is hilariously. HILARIOUSLY. town.
And not in the sthar-defending-Mala way, in the "this couldn't get more genuine" sort of way.

[mastin2]

It seems unlikely for scum to forget about their buddies in their readslist. It's not concrete, but it makes me lean town.

Eh, playing devil's advocate, I'd actually find it slightly

more

likely for a scum player to forget their scumbuddy in a readslist.

But this is me playing devil's advocate because LC's town anyway. It's pretty much at the point where to lynch them, you'd almost have to go through me first.

[mastin2]

I would check the ika wagon composition for scum but scum are bussing like fuck there. Guaranteed.

Fairly safe assumption, yeah.

Definitely gonna have at least one there, but it very well may be both. I'd have to check the wagon and give it a serious think-through to see about it, though, for sure.

[mastin2]

I don't get the impression that Nacho's trying to earn town points...

I'm not absolute on it, but there's definitely the trend there.

His timing of the switch onto Aristophanes was at the point where it was fairly probable Aristophanes was getting lynched, yet early enough where he would earn towncred from the flip.

His willingness to vote me is a nice way to appease to players also willing to vote me. (It's also one of the largest factors in making me think he could be scum, because he of all people--ESPECIALLY him!--should have known

exactly

what I meant and why my inactivity was null.)

Then his reversal into me being town is a good way to appeal to me, with his votes (vezok, ika) being such that they are on exactly the right spots for cheap, easy towncred, yet there's not a Nacho passion. There isn't a Nacho drive.

[mastin2]

Forgot to add this bit about Nacho:
I have it on good authority that Nacho's not exactly in prime playing condition right now, which is again one of the reasons the read isn't stronger. (Among other things. It's...complicated? I really wish I could explain the dynamic there between Nacho and myself, but it's very difficult to do. Like, I can explain the dynamic between LC and myself but am intentionally choosing not to. With Nacho, I'm not sure I

can

.)

[mastin2]

Final Vote Count of Day 4

ika - 7 (Sonic Boom, mastin2, vezokpiraka, Wickedestjr, Nachomamma8, T S O, Jaqen Hghar)
Lying Cat - 1 (St Constantine the Hermit)
T S O - 1 (PeregrineV)

Not Voting: Cerberus v666, ika, Lying Cat

ika - 7 (mastin2, vezokpiraka,

Wickedestjr

, Nachomamma8,

T S O

, Jaqen Hghar)
T S O - 1 (PeregrineV)
Not Voting: Lying Cat

So basically, the only way ika

wasn't

double-bussed is if PV is scum.

[mastin2]

Dunno why my quote failed to load, I did it manually in the quick reply, and suddenly it materialized like that. Butyeah, we need one more dead scum so the roleblock becomes a proper investigative.

[mastin2]

Overall, though, definitely need to think things through.
If Nacho were scum, I'd expect him to have killed me, my grandstanding aside, because in spite of my words, he wouldn't really hesitate to kill me: a mastina scumreading Nacho and alive is deadlier than a mastina nightkilled, even if said nightkill risks martyring me. Because said nightkill likely wouldn't martyr me in the eyes of the town, and because Nacho's naturally charismatic, if he were scum, he could kill me and get away with it in spite of my warning you about him doing exactly that. In contrast, if Nacho's town, leaving both of us alive makes sense, since duh. I'm not blind. I'm not an idiot. I know what happens to tunneling a player who is town when also being town.

Yet on the other hand

, the only thing less dangerous than a nightkilled mastina is a mastina who second-guesses her scumread, and Nacho as scum might bank on that...ESPECIALLY if he's smart enough to have deduced the above, in an "I Know You Know I Know" wifomy battle. So I'm not sure.

I still stand by TSO being town and by extension Wicked.
And while it's possible LC would leave me alive to be manipulated...I really don't think that's true.
When it comes to Jaqen, still thinking whether he'd bus both scum with a lolhammer or not, yet I'm not sure.

Kinda sorta thinking vezok and PV right now, outside chance of Nacho.
Pretty sure this game can be won via POE, but I need to get things more solidified to be absolutely sure.

Vote: vezokpiraka

.
Subject to change.

[mastin2]

10 alive right now, right?
Makes a difference with the vezok wagon.

[mastin2]

Actually, while I'd

love

to leave my vote on vezok, that'd risk a quicklynch.
I believe Anti has rules regarding inventors being allowed to be given time if the day was too short (not that it'd be all that hard considering at least one inventor has already been online, thus, presumably submitted already), butstill, even if inventions are sent out in a fairly definitive position, there should still be more time to discuss than a few hours.

I've been frustrated all too much as of late with the number of quicklynches in games I've participated in.

Unvote

.

I'd put it back on if there was one or two fewer votes (I cast my vote thinking it was the first, but got double-ninjaed), but the risk is too high.
I want to actually do ~thinking~ today, and while vezok's my preferred lynch, I want more content today than six rapidfire vezok votes.

[mastin2]

Final Vote Count of Day 4

ika - 7 (Sonic Boom, mastin2, vezokpiraka, Wickedestjr, Nachomamma8, T S O, Jaqen Hghar)
Lying Cat - 1 (St Constantine the Hermit)
T S O - 1 (PeregrineV)

Not Voting: Cerberus v666, ika, Lying Cat

He could be scum. I just currently don't lean that way.

[mastin2]

^See that? That's why I unvoted. He's at L-3 now, which is fine, but he'd be at L-2 otherwise.

A small concern of mine is that, right now, vezok has gone from being widely townread by a lot of people to L-2 and defended by none.

[mastin2]

Like...I've had vezok as a reserve-suspicion in essence for the majority of the game, but the whole time, every time someone mentioned so much as a morsel of suspicion on him, there was a hurricane of defense rushing to his side, none of them being flipped scum, all insisting he was town.

I came to think they were wrong at some point (don't remember when), and fought that read, but I was pretty unique in having it.

Now

everyone

, all of a sudden, seems to have it.

[mastin2]

Secondly, @Mastin- should I claim my role yet?

I see the advantage, but I think it best to wait.

Also, desperately need to know, why Nacho?

[mastin2]

I'm not sure what's happening with this day, but I'm not liking it. We have wagons on aristophanes and ika and no votes on kari. I like the aristophanes wagon a lot more than the ika wagon and will probably jump on it.

This looks like not scum, as in picks scum over town, and when picking scum, picks their PR over their goon.

I'll need to double-check, but I'm pretty sure this is actually a good point, which makes the ease of the vezok wagon all the more unnerving. (Granted, if PV's scum and vezok's scum, he needs to defend vezok, but if vezok is town, this throws into doubt if PV would be scum.)

I need to think.

And frankly.
I'm thinking that I might try to reread the whole game, in spite of it having been years since I last did that (reread an entire game), probably for good reason. But I'm thinking of pulling the Plotinus and doing it anyway, because this game has a TON of info. It should be ridiculously easy for us to find the answer out by looking at all the facts we have, minus the known factors (e.g. flipped TvT).

May or may not get around to it tonight.

[mastin2]

My pool of scum is 2 from {vezok, Nacho, mastin, LC, Jaqen}, so I'll be going from there today.

I'm

kinda

thinking Nacho-Jaqen, right now. Like, that's the team that I've got the best gut feelings for. PV on the outside. Vezok looks scummy, yeah, but I'm not feeling him as scum anymore--in fact, the idea is making me deeply, deeply uncomfortable the more I'm thinking about it. PV could be town, could be scum. Jaqen I honestly don't really have strong feelings one way or another on, but when it comes to it, thinking about it, PV's slot doesn't feel as bad as Jaqen's does, and I know Jaqen as scum is very good at faking sincerity when scum. (Basically, Jaqen's posting has, unanimously, been called, "Looks sincere, but hilariously wrong." Yet I know that as scum, he can be sincere, and intentionally push the wrongness because it's advantageous.) And the main thing throwing that into doubt is his dual scum hammers, yet in both cases, they were clearly going down; Aristophanes was the lead wagon near deadline, and everyone (save TSO) scumread ika, and I know that Jaqen can bus as scum when it's strategic to him to do so for towncred.

Then there's Nacho, who just kinda...

feels

like scum. The more I think about it, the more I think of scumteam combos, the more the ones that are without Nacho feel like, "Nah, that's not right", and the more I think of those with him in them, the thought of, "...Actually? That feels pretty good" comes in.

But not voting Nacho for the same reason I took back my vezok vote: I want to spend time this day phase actually reading, since I think I can actually solve the game today. Sure, yeah, it's basically solved already, but that's through POE and time. I think I can solve it

today

(rather than an undefined "eventually"), and that's particularly important given there's always the risk I don't make it through the night.

[mastin2]

Quite plausibly, yes.

It's just the thing that feels right.

[mastin2]

Seems like you just want to scum read Nacho regardless of how the night ended...

Actually...the opposite.

I'm desperately trying to find ways that Nacho would be town. I don't want to be wrong on him. It can happen, I just try very very hard to make sure it doesn't happen. Yet the more I think, the more every fiber in me is saying he has to be scum. Especially with him putting Jaqen in the town list with me. I get me being in there; regardless of my alignment, he HAS to put me in there, or I nail his ass for being wrong, a-la Tales. (Not that it actually mattered, nailing him in Tales, but that was then, this is now; he wouldn't want to be nailed by me NOW.)

And while I know the mind of Scum!Nacho fairly well, I don't know the finer points. Like, I can predict, but I don't actually know them. I should, but I don't. I have that mental map I mentioned. It's decent, fairly good even, but it's far from perfect. Like a weather forecast, using the instruments around me to form a prediction. And the closer to the date, the more accurate it is. So in this case, a big part of it is the mindset going into the night. Mainly...was I even a viable nightkill to him? I'd like to think I was--I should have been, at least--but I'm not sure, and the possibility that he just flat-out dismissed the idea of killing me would make him scum for sure.

Yet I don't want to believe that.

I'm not sure it makes sense. It's something you just kinda...have to know, given our extensive history. (Nacho probably has the most games with me of any other player, when you include hydras and modding.) We don't have that AP-me or me-zMuf psychic connection, but we have a similar bond in place, where there's just been a dynamic in play. I can't boil it down to anything more than: right now, I'm really, really trying to think things through. To be sure about it, to get in the mindset where I can read through the thread unbiased. There's some assumptions that can be made in a readthrough (e.g. Wicked's town, LC's town, TSO's town), but I don't want that gut-prejudice to ruin any chance I have of getting a read right on him if he's town.

[mastin2]

...Also, on an LC/me team...

LC, I take it back. Today is the day.

Do you want to do the honors, or shall I?

[mastin2]

Nah, it'll be more rewarding if you do it.

[mastin2]

Popping in here (not for very long, mind you) to say I see LC's posting and can confirm.

[mastin2]

Popping in to say, I'm not sure whether I can actually read things now with an objective mind. It wasn't exactly a dream (because I was awake, natch), but I basically was daydreaming with delusions of grandeur that gave me an adrenaline rush. Where Nacho was scum, we lynched him today, the kill was stopped presumably by the roleblock, and then tomorrow, we lynched the last scum. (Interestingly, the image of PeregrineV was the one popping into my mind as the second, not Jaqen.) Like...all day, I've continued to think about it, and that image is still there.

Like...how do I describe it? I don't want Nacho to be scum--it's always good to win with him. Work with him, lynch scum, and whatnot. He's a friend, and for obvious reasons, I would like it if he wasn't scum. More than that, there's that deep, fundamental, urge to not misread him, that desire to get the read right and the terror of getting it wrong, of what if he's town and I'm fooling myself.

Yet at the same time...I'm feeling like I've caught Nacho as scum. That's really the best way to describe it.

There's only two pages, and I'm hoping that with a night's rest, I can clear that confirmation bias from my mind and make sure that if I'm scumreading Nacho, I'm doing it because he's actually scum, not because I got the wrong mindset. (I know, I know. I think the game's a little bit stalled right now, and honestly we're probably just waiting for me to do the catch-up which I have continued to slack off on doing, but...I reemphasize, the catchup would be absolutely worthless if I go into it already having formed my conclusion before-hand.)

[mastin2]

In a much better mindset today.

For the record, Nacho's posting on 160/161

looks

town. I'm not sure if it IS town, because while some feels genuine, other things look a little bit fake (like the 'townslip'), but overall, I'd say that right now, my feelings on him feel more neutral: I'm not going in with an inherent bias towards his alignment.

Because I spent friday night contemplating suicide, [and] saturday dealing with the fallout from that.

Oh my god.

I wanted this to be sthar-brand humor, be it about some thing in real life or a joke about how claiming would be suicide.
Wanted.

...But a blind person could see that it's not.

I'm just...

...

Is there really anything I can say other than <3?
Because, <3 sthar. You are an incredibly awesome person. There are many people here who deeply, deeply respect and admire you, and I consider you a friend that I some day (WE'LL MAKE IT HAPPEN SOMEHOW SOMETIME, SCREW THE CASCADES DIVIDING US!) want to actually meet, and to let you in on a secret, of pretty much all the scummers I've talked to, I don't think there's any one I more want to see than you.

I can't pretend to know your circumstances, because everyone's different, but I think you're aware of how often the thought's crossed my mind, so in that regard, you're not alone. I don't know much about you, even though I want to know more, but regardless, please hold on.
<3

I'm really not interested in massclaim based on how slow this game moves and also because all inventors have been accounted for and it seems pretty clear everyone else is just VTs.

Frankly, short of Lying Cat gambiting with a PR like, say, tracker instead of the commute-invent claim (because, duh, of course it'd be a town gambit), I'd speedlynch any PR claims at this point. It's preeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeetty dang obvious that, yeah. It's all inventors and VTs by now. (Though scum may have an extra role, depending on the mod's exact take on balance, yet see above; they'd not be stupid enough to claim anything but VT.)

[mastin2]

Take me through the logic where scum have one PR (vanilla cop) and no inventors while town has 3 inventors. (Commute and Roleblock which serve similar purposes). Like explain that balance.

Well, the nature of the inventions might be responsible for that. Weak cop punishes guilties by robbing the town of info, save for a gamebreaking strategy. Commute interferes with the weak cop and the roleblock. Roleblock can interfere with the weak cop. Basically, the inventions have near-zero synchronization, and actively work to sabotage each other. So while each individually has their own merits, as a whole, they don't prove to be an overwhelming town force.

This also makes a ton of sense when you realize we started with four scum out of seventeen players, which is normally would be scumsided, unless you give a stronger-than-normal town to compensate.

Alternatively, the scum have another PR--certainly not something as strong or stronger than a rolecop, but it's definitely possible they have, say, a limited secondary investigation role, such as an X-shot watcher, or something along those lines. This would give our roleblocker and our commuter additional utility as well.

The point of it is, we don't know Anti's exact mindset when making the game, but we can be reasonably sure that the inventors are all town off of what we've seen.

[mastin2]

A PR that, in spite of it being massclaim, has chosen to remain silent.
Uh-huh.

[mastin2]

And your snark still doesn't explain your contradiction in logic

There is no contradiction.

RB+Commute+Weak Cop has low synchronization, therefore, is not an overwhelming town force.

This does not mean they are not a strong combo. However, given the size of the scumteam relative to the game and the scumteam's fairly decent vanilla cop, this would imply that the strength of the combo is justified.


Really, everything you're trying to do to prove that one of them is scum is doing nothing but proving the opposite, that they are town.

[mastin2]

Now you're changing what you said.

Nope!

I said, as you explicitly pointed out, that as a whole, they don't prove to be an overwhelming force...but said quote was the conclusion of a paragraph about their

lack of synchronization

.

I also said, as you explicitly pointed out, that they are a stronger-than-normal town.

These ideas do not conflict. "Stronger than normal town" is not synonymous with "the PRs are an overwhelming force". "The PRs are an overwhelming force" means "the PRs are an overwhelming force", and "stronger than normal town" means "stronger than normal town". The ideas are supporting, not contradicting. You can have a stronger-than-normal town which is not an overwhelming force. This is what I believe we have.

Yes, an overwhelming force is by definition stronger than normal, but vice-versa is not true; stronger than normal is not by definition overwhelming. It just means stronger than normal. There are multiple ways stronger than normal can be kept from being overwhelming, among them being...the scum being stronger than normal themselves, and/or the town lacking PR synchronization. Both of which are undeniably at least partially true, if not fully true.

As I said. Everything you're trying to do to poke holes in it is only strengthening the reason why both inventors are town.

[mastin2]

Mastin, do you think Jaqen is scum? Because his entire game has been based on attempting to derail town, and it reminds me a lot of YCBA III.

He's definitely in the top three names. I'm not absolutely

convinced

he's scum, but do I think he is? More than I don't, yes. He's overall I'd say not as scum as Nacho but far more scum than PV. (PV, notably, also fits the bill in a different way, by pushing for the lynch of conftown too, just not in the same way, with the same persistence, as Jaqen does. Thus, his lesser but still existing chances of being scum.)

[mastin2]

Is it just me, or is this game kinda...dead?

[mastin2]

Dammit.

You're basically all saying, "I'm waiting on whatever mastina says to do."

I mean, that's not literally what you three just said, but it is, EFFECTIVELY, what you're saying.

I don't like the pressure of being THE deciding factor in a lynch.

[mastin2]

VOTE: Shakira

Are you bussing? What the fuck is this vote?

I like this from vezok. This doesn't seem like a scum-scum interaction to me. Vezok was voting Shakira at the time, so something like this was natural from a town point of view. (Similar to how I thought Shakira was bussing Sonic Boom.)

I also like post 221 for being town in particular.

VOTE: Mac

As if we needed more proof TSO was town, here we have this. (There's also a little bit of outside knowledge, here. I know for a fact that Ankamius has had trouble staying invested in his games, given he asked me advice on how to stay invested in MD. I find it more likely Ank would get uninvested in a town game than a scum game.)

Unvote. Vote: Mac

While not

as

town, this still is pretty town from Wicked, as if the conftown result from TSO wasn't enough. (I also could have quoted Shakira to show Constantine, but literally nobody except Jaqen is ever going to push Constantine as being scum, so.)

plz replace me

I know this is a really shitty measurement to use, but I know for a fact that mollie doesn't like playing as scum, and asked for replacement this game, yet has continued to play mafia games elsewhere. (Mollie = Nacho.)

BTW tere, you will wan tto do your best to avoid sonic boom. I have an idea about some of the players here and they are ones that i would not listen to.

I'm also really not liking the ika-Tere interactions. (Tere = Nacho, too.)

OK, so I am not really feeling the love for a Mac wagon - I have just finished scumming with Mac in Pokemon U Pick and Mac is good at scumming, he's very smooth and very agreeable. The posts that are bothering Shakira I don't think scum Mac would make.

Ika is pretty much obvtown for me at this point in time.

And this looks

really

bad for Nacho.

/Rereading the game right now, through page 11.

[mastin2]

(Gonna take a quick break for breakfast, though. I started today with playing mafia, rather than eating.)

[mastin2]

i'm actually a little afraid of tere because she completely fooled me in pokemon!! but her posting looks different from that so far. pretty good townread.

shes town, i dont see her being able to pull this activity or analysis out as scum

This looks bad for Nacho, too.

Tere, you related it to Pokemon but Mac's posting in pokemon was a little quiet until the game picked off. I don't see a post you could have used to relate the two games together yet.

I probably worded stuff badly, I don't think I would put Mac as a townread yet, precisely - I know his scum game is good so he's policy neutral naughty step for me. But the flow of his scum game is good and I don't think the posts Shakira is poking at (92 and 93? Sorry tabletting is hard) are awkward caught scum. I think he was just making a joke. Looks like similar humour to scumboard in Pokemon for me.
Wouldn't string him up for it today, anyway.

And this, to answer your question Cerb, is where the concern lies. Tere was basically having the best of both worlds: lessening the pressure on both ika and Mac, while not taking explicit responsibility for doing so. (Well, on Mac. Tere did take responsibility on ika, but not in a way that looks like it couldn't be scum. Not sure how to express that.)

In general, the whole ika-Tere interactions simply don't seem genuine.

For the record, also not fond of the ika-Jaqen interaction.

Side-note, Ankamius is ridiculously town in the readthrough, which by extent continues to be reason why TSO is town.

Jaqen doesn't sound like a player that's easily caught as scum from my experience. His mistakes are more long-term and generally sounds town on the surface. He's not in the list of players I'm particularly interested in sorting out right away.

(As a reminder, this still holds valid on Jaqen. It's what TSO was referencing himself, too.)

/22.

[mastin2]

Actually, mastin, ages ago I thought I might have been able to prove Nacho's slot was scum due to mollie replacing. Unfortunately, with all the drama surrounding her and MS, I couldn't decide whether it was alignment-based or not. It's ultimately inconclusive.

Huh. Never knew about that. But I checked, and the only post separating mollie's previous post and her request to replace out

was

a Metal Sonic post, so I suppose so.

[mastin2]

Bins
Sonic
Cerebus
ZZZX
and he is being quite content to lynch any of the four.

Worth noting: Jaqen points out, quite accurately, that he has a tendency to have some fairly decent reads during the game. I've seen it from him before, albeit not nearly as much as Jaqen as I have under his alternative name.

This is something he even bragged about in his own iso at least once or twice; I could track down the quote if I wanted to.

Yet this is where he stood with his reads.

Jaqen: They're all easy. ZZZX is already on the back foot, Cerberus has enough of a playstyle clash to make it easy to just start tunneling back and forth with, Sonic Boom is already scumread by practically half the playerlist, and Bins had Gorkington in her slot.

Ankamius raised this (very, very valid) point about Jaqen's lynch list, too. Jaqen's scumreads were all lead wagons and filled with opportunism. Bins got wagoned. Sonic got wagoned. Cerb got wagoned. ZX got wagoned.

It is all very, very "easy".

Jaqen is difficult to understand.

This

could

give credence to a PV-Jaqen team, though.

/33.

[mastin2]

Actually, at this stage, I might want to vote Jaqen regardless.

We basically only have three realistic candidates for being scum, right? Nacho/PV/Jaqen.
But the Nacho/PV team doesn't look particularly likely. At least not from what I'm seeing so far in my reread nor from what I remember.
Nacho-Jaqen is a likely team, and I'm seeing some potential indicators of PV-Jaqen, but in either case, Jaqen would be scum.

[mastin2]

Sonic Boom - 6 (mastin2, Ankamius, Shakira Confirmed, Tere, Jaqen Hghar, hiplop)

There pretty much

has

to be a scum, here, too. It's not going to be in the first three names (I'm basically clearing TSO and refusing to acknowledge any scenario where he could ever be scum such that if he were we've basically already lost because I'd lynch a cop claiming a guilty on him before I'd lynch him), and it's not hiplop, so between Nacho and Jaqen, there's a minimum of one scum, if not two. So I think we should definitely be lynching one of the two today.

you know genuine doesn't make them right, don't you? I mean, if you flip town we'll have your reads to work with but a townflip doesn't suddenly make you an absolutely scum finding genius.
your scumread on bins based on gorkington's replace out is SO bad - gorkington may have had personal issues, why does this make him scum? like seriously jaqen, you should never read someone based on a replace out.

A man is often catching out multiple scum D1 and you are knkwing this full well. And yet every game a man is playing with you, you go on to call his reads shit (in one way or another) and refuse to follow the lead because you yourself don't understand how to do that and are usually lynching some town instead. How about THIS GAME you reflect on a man's history of such and follow his lead instead of being a herpaderp do your own thing.
Also, if this one is town, why are you boiling down a man's reasons to scum read Bins to only Girkington's replace out when that clearly isn't the case?

Then again, this interaction actually doesn't look scum-scum.

Feels fake... Telling your own scum read to lynch you? Hmmm... trying to sound townish here? Also not sure how you scum read both Sonic AND ZZZX. Your four scum reads are all leaning town for me, and I'm highly considering voting for you.

But this is a valid point.

I SWEAR I'LL GET SOMETHING PRODUCTIVE FROM THIS READTHROUGH. PROMISE.

I actually agree with the man, I think. Bins looked a hellava lot different in [redacted] where she has flipped as town.
Will have another look.

But also not sure

this

would be scum-scum, either.

(I'm making progress. Swear it. There will be thoughts. Productive thoughts. Produced from this. I just need to get some mental compilation going, weighing the evidence, and remembering the golden rule of scumhunting, that no scumteam is going to be perfect.)

How can you be town glue if you voted and unvoted out of nearly every wagon?

This is a valid point against Nacho. (Also a point for vezok being town.)

Bins - 3 (Jaqen Hghar, Wickedestjr, Lying Cat)
hiplop - 5 (Sonic Boom, vezokpiraka, Mac, Tere, ZZZX)

I know Mac's already flipped scum, here, but I really think that there's going to be more than one scum on the hiplop wagon, especially given how terribad it was.

Similarly, there probably is a scum on the Bins wagon at some point--not necessarily here, but somewhere. (Note that Tere technically is included in that list.)

Leaning town:

Jaqen - I like Jaqen's ISO - not sure why people are scumreading him. Liked his wall re Bins.
(less ordered below here)
Mac - Mac can be town for now, the snark looks genuine but I will be keeping a close eye on him as a point of principle!

I mean, I excluded the hard-town ika read because I already gave my thoughts, but this really doesn't look good for Nacho, especially if Jaqen is scum. (Vice-versa, too; it looks very bad for Jaqen if Nacho is scum.)

Said post does sort-of go against Nacho-PV as a team, though, unless Tere was getting frustrated with a lurker scumbuddy.

1042 also vaguely supports Nacho being scum for what it's worth. (Similarly, 1043 is reason for vezok to be town.)

I'm getting more annoyed by Jaqen's posting style that it's fucking impossible to read him. Figures as much since we know whose alt he is. -.-

This could be scum-scum I admit, but to me it just really doesn't read that way.

I mean, from this I still have a desire to lynch Nacho so far. (I know, I know, I just said maybe Jaqen! This is why relying on me is a seriously bad idea. ) But I still need to do more.

/44.

[mastin2]

But Sonic Boom explicitly got a result back.
Ascetic = no result.
Not "town result".

We've been over this.

(Nacho's mudslinging on the conftown is really, really bad.)

[mastin2]

This is as much as I have time for right now, so 45 and beyond will have to wait.

Really,

really

leaning towards the Nacho lynch right now.

[mastin2]

(But please let me finish rereading the game and analyzing it in detail before voting him. I want to make absolutely sure.)

[mastin2]

(Also, Anti hates godfathers with a passion, so, etc.)

[mastin2]

Currently feel good about the mastin slot overall, but I'm extremely suspicious.

I am deliberately keeping my vote from anything to ensure mastin has time to read through and share her thoughts, even if they are scum thoughts.

Would Scum!mastin accept the "doctor" crumbing to her, and suggest that her team not kill him until he can "confirm" her as town?

FUCK no. If I was scum, LC would have been my first nightkill, guaranteed. On policy alone! Even without a roleclaim, on D1, LC was the only player here that I as scum would have thought so much as remotely threatening--simply because they have the game experience with me. Every other player has either negligible and/or terrible (read: Titus) experience reading me, thus, would be, frankly, not worth touching. Sure, yeah, later days introduced players who know me like Nacho and TSO, but on D1? Just LC.

On that note, the scum this game clearly were PR-hunting with their nightkills (at least the first three of Bins, ZX, and Flubber), which goes against my scumplay philosophy. I can point to endless number of scumgames of mine where I kill purely off of the threat of the player--in Attack on Titan, ActionDan was my N1 nightkill because he has good accuracy reading me. In Anything Goes, pirate mollie was who we ended up nightkilling and she has a near-perfect accuracy reading me. In Left4Dead, AngryPidgeon was our N1 nightkill and

he

has perfect accuracy reading me, too. In Paranoia, I killed zMuffin the first night I was in the game, because he has perfect accuracy in reading me as well. And in this game, here LC has been, when LC has an admittedly good track record with my slot, and was left alone.

As scum, my nightkill philosophy is basically, "fuck PRs, we're killing players who're threats", and I don't even bother with role hunting.

That being said

, if there was any INKLING of a suspicion of LC being a role (yet alone a doctor!), damn fucking straight I'd kill them deader than I was already planning on.

Soyeah. Not scum. Very much not scum. Pretty much the only way I could be scum is if LC was

also

scum.

It wouldn't surprise me at all actually. I think she can be pretty tricky...

Yes, I can be, but part of being a scum mastermind is knowing the difference between being tricky and being a fucking moron.

Leaving LC alive all game is being a fucking moron.

Even ignoring the investigation: I remember Fluminator, Constantine's predecessor, looking really townish.

Yep.

^.

Really the biggest piece of evidence (that I can remember) making me doubt Nacho-scum is the fact that Tere replaced out. If she was scum, she was playing really well and I struggle to imagine her quitting just because of MS...

Actually, as part of my reread, I did a check of her posting on-site. While she recently returned, there was a rather notable gap in her posting. (Check her posting out yourself to see it.) That was more recent than her replace-out, but that such a large gap exists is a strong indicator that her replace-out was null, not alignment-indicative one way or another.

You know what? I've been town reading you all game, because I seriously doubted that you would behave this way as scum. But this is starting to get really ridiculous and hard to believe...

Yep.

[mastin2]

Is Constantine/Mastin your guess right now?

lol

^.

This is a valid point against Nacho. (Also a point for vezok being town.)

How, exactly?

Vezok raised a good point against Tere: Tere showed some signs of opportunism by being on basically every wagon.

Determining whether confirmed town is actually confirmed town or not is actually pretty important.

Yeah, but there's a difference between looking for confirmation of conftownness and intentionally casting doubt on it.

You've done the latter, especially given that Constantine was in your suspect list.

[mastin2]

[Jaqen] is a pretty good scumhunter, I recognize, caught 3 scum out of 5 in xeno 1? 2? Idr which was acknowledged.

(Yet his reads have notably not been good at all this game. 0 for, what? 6? Something like that. He has yet to be right once.)

hiplop - 6 (vezokpiraka, Tere, ZZZX, Flubbernugget, Cerberus v666, Sonic Boom)

I absolutely refuse to believe this wagon is all-town.

Every name there except vezok and Tere/Nacho has flipped town, so at least one of them is going to be scum. Butyeah. No way is it an all-town wagon.

Btw, Tere's stances progressively make Nacho-PV look increasingly unlikely. Also, vezok's posting is looking more and more town to me as I progress.

That one is claiming to have a vote and that she is using it on hiplop. A man is having one of those as well.

Even back here, Jaqen was casting doubt on PRs.

(Sidenote, but a quick iso of Mac and ika will show you both held negative stances on me, more or less. Which pretty much is reason for me to be town, especially given how I dictate my scumteams play.)

/55.

[mastin2]

And since you're so uber boss at this game and scum has there numbers halved- why exactly are you still alive?

Better targets.

Scum were PR-hunting, and more specifically, quite obviously for the cop inventor. Bins was the only claimed PR D1. ZX died N2, and Flubber died N3. N4 there's too many existing conftown from the cops, so by necessity Sonic Boom dies. Simply put, scum haven't killed either of us because scum have had higher-priority nightkills.

Doesn't change that LC and I are both town.

[mastin2]

Also, given that the only scum I've caught is ika, my read accuracy hasn't been stellar. Ika's the obligatory I-was-right-on-one-scumread-read, and from there, it's basically just me getting lucky if I name scum.

This being lategame, though, I think I can do it. I generally am a much, much stronger lategame player than earlygame player, at least traditionally with games like Drawn on Arrival and that one bork mini I replaced into.

Frankly, I don't really see how scum can win this game, so long as we don't let them lynch a conftown player.

[mastin2]

I kind of feel if Bins has a useful and proveable day action, she should consider claiming before the zone of lolquickhammer, because I am really torn atm between her and hiplop.

Oh.

This.

...This...

This pretty much alone would make me want to vote Nacho.

I'm not sure how to describe it if you don't already have an idea of what I'm talking about, but basically, this is scum, who is okay with either lynch, because both lynches are on town. That fence-sitty attitude, and overall stance, while trying to seem genuine is just...very, very much not. I lack the words to express it, but I'm pretty dang sure Nacho's scum right now.

Bins - 4 (Lying Cat, mastin2, Jaqen Hghar, Wickedestjr)
hiplop - 6 (vezokpiraka, ZZZX, Flubbernugget, Cerberus v666, Shakira Confirmed, Sonic Boom)

^Literally the only thing that'd make me doubt Nacho being scum is that unless it's Nacho-vezok, the hiplop wagon would be all-town. Yet worth noting is that Tere (Nacho)

was

on the wagon and was considering rejoining it--as quoted above, really. It's very, very possible that one of the reasons Tere didn't is

because

it was an all-town wagon on town and Tere didn't want to 'taint' it with her presence, if that makes sense.

OK, so Bins, I realised you could also prove your claim by actually doing this. Your counterwagon is like the worst possible choice, though. But you should pick someone who you townread who will survive the day, if you really are the town PR you are crumbing here.

This is bad, too--Tere is trying to have the best of both worlds, here, simultaneously scumreading/voting yet coaching-as-if-town Bins. (It also makes a lot of sense that a scumteam with Tere would kill Bins.)

/66.

[mastin2]

Also jaqen is either very fail town or scum.

(There's only so many times you can get away with being 'fail town' before you realize the player in question is, in fact, actually scum.)

Yeah, I don't mind a hiplop vote either. It felt like he was crumbing a bomb or something late in the day, which after claiming VT earlier is just eesh.

Vote hiplop

Vezok you might want to fix your vote tags?

This is bad, too.

Increasingly convinced it's Nacho-Jaqen.

VOTE: tere
this is tere's scumplay. that wagon hop was horrible and opportunistic

^Definitely seeing this.

BTW Cerb's L-1 was only just over 3 hours before end of Day and I think ika is working nights ATM so he may well have not seen it.
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 6#p6964136

This defense of ika was bad, too.

hiplop - 5 (Tere, vezokpiraka, Sonic Boom, ZZZX, Flubbernugget)

Again, this wagon cannot be all-town.

A man isn't caring who have who what. A man IS pointing out a basic principal of mafia though- if someone is neighborized, and the one who did the neighborizing is meeting Death that same night, LYNCH THE FUCK OUT OF THE REMAINING NEIGHBOR BECAUSE SOMETHING LIKELY CAME UP IN THE NEIGHBOHOOD WHICH MADE THE CAUSED THE NEIGHBORIZOR TO MEET THEIR DEMISE.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: Sonic
For Bins. Boom!

I'm not quite sure how to vocalize how this reads as being scum. Like, the last bit just felt fake, and the first bit felt like opportunism? That's the best way I can think to describe it. It's just...very very much not town.

im pretty sure you're wrong on zx and i'm definitely sure that you're wrong on me so thats 3/3 wrong
that's usually a scumtell for someone proclaimed as a "good scumhunter" dont'cha agree?

^Truth.

thats right folks, excessive stupidity is a scumtell

This, too.

Jaqen is not an idiot.

Jaqen's posting this game which has basically been mudslinging every single conftown we've had the whole damn game from Bins to Sonic to Constantine, is him faking being an idiot.

IOW, if it is coming down to it a man will have no reserve in lynching LC, but there is remaining much an more time and a man is thinking following decades worth of mafia theory is stronger than, say, "I have a feeling Lying Cat is lying".

This is another name he's wrong on, too.

Because the commute inventor couldn't possibly be scum? Stupid.

^Like, this wasn't even directed at a specific player, but it continues the trend.

/77.

I really don't see myself voting anyone other than Nacho or Jaqen at this stage. They really, really, REALLY look like the scumteam to me.

[mastin2]

In fact,
VOTE: Nachomamma8.
Yes, vote tag instead of bold.

I could continue reading, but I really don't think I'm going to find anything that will change my conclusion. I'll probably find little things here and there that throw it into doubt, yes, because no scumteam callout's going to be perfect. Yet I don't see anything but my read growing stronger happening. Those things that may throw it into doubt would be vastly outweighed by the things reaffirming my call, including things like my ever-growing vezok townread. The more of the game I'm reading, the more convinced I am that he is town. And the more I'm seeing, the most Nacho's slot looks like scum and the more Jaqen looks like scum.

So I've made my choice.

[mastin2]

sonic? flub?? ZZZX?!?? REALLY?!?

Yes. Because Flub was the cop inventor, ZX they probably suspected was the cop inventor, and Sonic was confirmed town thanks to the cop inventor.

I was, very quite transparently, not the cop inventor. So if the scum were hunting the cop inventor, which they almost certainly were by the nightkills, then they had no reason to touch me. (Especially not if they thought I was going to be harmless, not at all an unreasonable conclusion to make.)

And yep. 0/6. Didn't hammer either of the scum.

Bluntly, your hammers mean absolutely nothing. It's your content on the slots

prior

to the hammers which are important. And there's notably not much about ika, nor much calling of Aristophanes being scum.

In fact, I just isoed you. No mention of ika pretty much at all as far as I can tell save for the lolhammer which was frankly the obvious move to do. And the only time as far as I can tell that you ever mention Aristophanes?

This is a man's full list of suspicion, from greatest to least
Lying Cat
Sonic Boom
T S O
Kari
Aristophanes
Cerberus v666
Mastin2
Nachomamma8

...Aristophanes is present only as the FIFTH name. Behind Kari/PV (the alternative lynch candidate), TSO (town), Sonic Boom (town), and Lying Cat (also town).

Oh, and there Nacho is at the bottom with ika out of the list altogether.

The hammer on Aristophanes gives nothing because it was expected. The hammer on ika even moreso. Ika was clearly going down. Aristophanes was obviously going down. Frankly you'd have to be stupid

not

to have bussed.

So no, you don't get any towncred, WHATSOEVER, for hammering reads you otherwise showed zero suspicion for. Quite the opposite in fact.

[mastin2]

You are shoving in our faces the fact you hammered scum while being completely wrong in your reads. That seems like trying to get towncred.

^What vezok said.

As far as I can tell, no prior heavy suspicion whatsoever on either of the scum slots--quite the contrary, before the wagons on both grew to L-1, you, Jaqen, were heavily, HEAVILY pushing other names, like Sonic Boom, Cerberus v666, Lying Cat, and similar. Your votes were on them, you were advocating their lynches, you were pushing them hard and trying to force them through. Then, with no warning, you hammer them...when it was obvious they were getting lynched anyway, especially given timing and players' attitudes towards lynching (favoring "meh, we'll just lynch them"). And you don't even give any reasoning for the hammer. You just do it, as if the act of hammering scum is enough for it to count as "catching" scum.

That is not a town pattern. Especially not since the later someone is on a wagon, the less towncred should be handed out. (Save for select circumstances, e.g. Egg hammering Thor with literally seconds left on the deadline clock.)

You have no clue where I'm at or what im doing, do you? That's how I know you're town. That's why I won't be a part of your mislynch though you probably will be. There is exactly two (well possibly 3 depending on which T S O showed up for this game...) who are town and might have an inkling. But, no,,towncred isn't what I'm after. To see me you need to go many layers further than skin deep. But, I'll give you a hint- I'm not hammering anyone I don't think has a hugely superior chance of being scum and my pushes and votes don't matter. They're tools.

AKA, "Ignore all of my massively wrong content, I swear it's not wrong because I'm wrong, but 'wrong' because I'm pulling some grand facade that means my actual reads are known only to me!"

Ika being a ~zero~ meant he had no chance of being town.

This is also bullshit because ika doesn't vote often his alignment regardless.

[mastin2]

^More or less, that.

[mastin2]

Mastin, will you look into vezok after you mislynch me?

Well if you're town, I'm not instantly gonna go, "Nacho was town, therefore, vezok is scum".

But you know me.

I second-guess

everything

(even pushing you), and then second-guess my second-guess, and then second-guess THAT second-guess...

So regardless of your alignment, he won't be out of my mind.

[mastin2]

I, sadly, agree.

[mastin2]

Cerberus v666 - Potassium Permanganate, Town Inventor - has been killed!

VOTE: Lying Cat.

No way.

No.
fucking.
way.

Is this a coincidence.
The ONE night.
I just so

happen

to send the invention to LC.
The one fucking night.
Cerb would be vulnerable to being nightkilled.

Do the scum mystically figure out our gambit and kill Cerb rather than targeting LC.

[mastin2]

because it looks right now like you, lc, jaqen and pv

It's LC and Jaqen. I'm betting my life on it.

[mastin2]

Like...
You could argue, "What about (a limited?) strongman?"
You could argue, "Well, maybe the scum were perceptive enough to pick up on the gambit and deduced your role and night action from it, and circumvented it."

But the simplest explanation.
Is that between LC and I, there's a fucking scumbag.

So this is quite literally a 1v1.

[mastin2]

sigh. Who got the roleblock?

mine

And they don't put any suspicion on me at all. If LC were town, then I would expect them to have some sort of paranoia, here. Maybe they wouldn't be convinced I was scum. Maybe they wouldn't go after me. But basically gloss over it altogether?

Fuck no.

It makes perfect sense from them as scum, though, because if they instigate a 1v1 against me, even if they win (which they only have a 50/50 shot of doing at best!), they're screwed over come mylo tomorrow.

[mastin2]

^Jaqen isn't that dense as town.

LC isn't the commute inventor.

I am.

This is evident in not only my iso, but ironically enough, LC's.

[mastin2]

And seriously, should be painfully obvious who was giving out the inventions.
All my 'crumbs D1 about traffic, commute, and traveling directed at LC. Being one of the only players to townread LC. LC getting the commute. Then me on D2 saying I'd protect someone like LC.
D2, I originally sent in a protection for someone else (forget who, would have to check), but once Nacho replaced in, I explicitly said he was a likely scum nightkill...AKA, I was going to protect him. So I did. And on D3, I said that I'd have protected someone like Nacho, when lo and behold, that's exactly what I did.
D3, I said that because Shakira Confirmed was (1) conftown, and (2) knew what the third invention was, they were the most valuable player. And then, sure enough, come D4, Constantine claimed the commute because I never changed it from his slot.
You get the idea.

Not to mention my hard offense whenever someone mentioned so much as the possibility of the commute inventor being scum.
Of course I'm going to fucking call people out when I'm the said commute inventor.

[mastin2]

Hey, everyone. This time, let's NOT lynch me. Because I swear to you, I'm organic,

just like last time!

What role was I last time?

The protective-inventor. The doctor-inventor, who got lynched D1.
My very first fucking post was me 'crumbing my role.

(No, but seriously, lynching me D1 is a bad idea. It really would be fitting for the game, sure, but objectively it'd be godawful.)

Further cemented here.

You're not my supervisor.

I am, and I say: stop taking the bus; cars rule.

With this being so contrived and convoluted, you really shouldn't be surprised.

Vote: mastin

I really think it will work this time.

Deja vu.

Another reference reinforcing the idea of, "Hey, this game's a repeat of last one: I'm the protective invent".

Jingle's sick and I'm going on vacation, so we'll get to this in a bit.

Have a nice trip! Hope your travels are productive.

Okay, this one was more subtle, but still obvious.

HAHA, I'm not dead! I'm gonna spend what time I can today reading the thread, but I'm working and it's Comiccon two blocks away, so I'll probably be busy.

I imagine traffic's a...

killer

.

This one was pretty blatant, too.

Actually I'd say my investment is

slightly

greater than norm. Mostly because we don't want to repeat history.

Repeat history = lynch your fucking doctor D1.

Jingle. sthar's still in Mexico or wherever.

Lazy bastard's taking a vacation in the middle of our game.

(<3 sthar.)

I know this was meant as one, too, though in hindsight, I guess I can see why it doesn't look that way.

Good

god

, this game really

is

gonna be a repeat of the first.

Wouldn't surprise me at all to find interest in lynching me, maybe even a wagon right now, because I've been posting elsewhere on the site but procrastinating here a bit because it's too much of a workload to tackle in a single sitting and I'd prefer to get it done in one and all that. But I really do swear, I'm going to get caught up in the game. Not right now, but

maybe

later today (don't get your hopes up; family night is a shot in the dark: sometimes I can, sometimes I can't), and yes it will get done.
I did mention I'm V/LA (I should officially banner it) for good reason. College stuff and whatnot, less time to work. Should be done come Wednesday, but until then my hands are pretty tied.

Guess what happened the first game?
I, as the town protective inventor, fell behind.
Seriously behind.
People got suspicious of me.
I got lynched.

Mastin, Jingle says you're town. Is he being dumb?

Nope! I'm just hoping that

I'm

not being dumb in trusting

you

to be town.

^Was committed to sending LC the commute N1.

Spoiler: Woe is Me/Non Game Related

If anyone does care about my lack of presence, I was sick enough to miss work for the first time in 2 years last week and I haven't been taking the time to actually get better because one of my friends with a history of severe depression and suicidal thoughts is going through a divorce.

Take care, and be safe.

As solidified here, where I was saying that they'd be safe.

If I started rambling about, I dunno, traffic I had in my commute in a single post or a series of posts right next to one another that stop right then and there, probably fluff. I start ranting about road conditions in several posts strewn across a wide timeframe, probably not irrelevant.)

*cough*

I mean, if I was a protective-type role, I'd give my protection out to a large townread like, say, LC, rather than on someone under heavy suspicion. The mafia kill them, fine, they don't, also fine.

This is literally me fucking claiming to be the commute-inventor given that's exactly what happened.

Under no circumstances do we want the commute inventor to claim.

Precisely, because--being unable to self-target--they're not exactly going to be a Bulletproof Doctor.

Titus really should have caught this one and frankly, I was partially suspicious of her because she DIDN'T. Guess who claimed

exactly this role

in Team Mafia? Yep. Me. Being/referencing a BP/Doctor is actually kinda sorta a schtick of mine.

We just get the commute each night, and check whoever.

Yeah, the commute-inventor would have to be a real idiot to give YOU the commute.

Well, duh, of course I was laughing at Sonic Boom asking for the commute when it was ME they were going after.

Small question, though. If an inventor gets the weak cop invention and fears their target is scum, do they deviate from the chain or risk their life?

My oh my, whatever could have sparked this question coming from me?

LC, why didn't the commute inventor gift bins, since bins claimed a day power which wouldn't be affected by commuting, and hhad a decent chance of being the first nk? Can you think of town motivations?

Dozens of motivations in fact, but listing so much as one would be anti-town.

Because listing the main reason--that the commute inventor was behind and simply didn't see Bins claim--would reveal the only player who COULD be the commute inventor: me.

If we get universal agreement that the recipient of the cop do so, short of the recipient being an inventor (because in my opinion, if an inventor gets the weak cop investigation, it'd be a bad idea to investigate near-certain scum), then yes I can agree with this.

Of course I as an inventor raise a concern about an inventor receiving the weak commute and using it on scum.

(Btw, checked my inbox. My original D2 target was LC again. I don't remember my

exact

mindset, but I think it had to do with them being my top townread, and being worried they'd get nightkilled. Incidentally, I checked my inbox and I originally gave my commute to Sonic Boom D4, before changing it to be Shakira Confirmed.)

Hey, LC. Know how you and I have kinda been buddy-buddy so far in the game? How you've been the most obvtown, threatening-to-scum-in-all-likelihood player?
Sorry. You just got demoted.

town who has no real intentions of reading the game.
TSO, who should I vote?

Here, let me give you the steps to the game.

1. Know you are town.
   
2. Know that we have already figured out you are town.
   
3. Know I am town.

^This is the moment I switched the commute from LC to Nacho.

I've said that explaining why I am

town

would be anti-town.

Because, duh, the reason I'm town is because I'm the commute-inventor.
Also from that post,

If I had any power short of vig, including the weak cop, my target would be Nacho, because NACHO.

Making it abundantly clear I'm targeting Nacho with the commute.

That'd allow the commute inventor free range of movement to continue protecting players likely to be nightkilled, rather than being locked on one player.

I had a vested interest in saying this.

pedit the invention I received

Btw, just sayin', I sincerely doubt the aforementioned invention would be the commute, so with the weak cop claimed, Shakira's the only confirmed town player to know what the third invention is. (There would be two total if the inventor is themselves town, but if the inventor is scum, then Shakira is the only one that's claimed what it is so I'm basically making an assumption here that Shakira's the only town player to have received it.) That doesn't elevate them in importance READS-wise (because frankly if they were a threat reads-wise they'd be dead under the pretext of killing conftown. No offense, Shakira, but you know it's true), but it puts them on a VERY high pedestal importance-wise in having an influence as far as I'm concerned. So they're now a one-two punch of (1) conftown, and (2) town who knows the third invention.

^This is the post where I changed my target from Sonic Boom to Shakira Confirmed.

If SC claims to have gotten the commute, then innocent from Cerb be damned, I'd power-lynch them. Not a chance in hell the commuter gave the commute to Sonic Boom, the. freakin. target. of the cop investigation.

I would not believe SC claiming to receive the commute, even though that would require an SC/SB/Cerb scumteam.

This was me basically giving a heavy hint that *I* was the commute inventor, because no duh, I knew that Nacho was the one to get the commute.

Now, the commute.

Frankly, the commuter is obvtown, giving to players likely to be nightkilled. LC was the target D1, and the target for D2 would probably be someone like, say, Nacho. They're going to be using it as a doc protect, so no, not scum.

OH, HEY, GUESS WHAT KNOWLEDGE WASN'T PUBLIC AT THE TIME YET WHICH I HAD GIVEN HERE!

From that same post,

I feel like a scum inventor is likely.

It's possible. Really depends, though. If we have any town power outside the inventors aside from Bins, it's a near-certainty. If all we have are Bins + the inventors, then frankly we need all three inventors to have anything resembling a chance against the scum.

I think the recipient of the commute should claim it every day, but I'm not positive that there's anything good for town in doing that.

Since the commute power is known, I don't think it's as important as the third invention in regards to claiming. The third power, unless SC tells us differently, could be from scum. The commute, rather obviously, is not.

More commute-specific talk, which of course I'm involved in.

2. If Lying Cat is scum and you are town there is not a chance in hell he'd kill you.

No, if Lying Cat were scum, I am the ONLY player he would nightkill N2.
I'm still here, ergo, LC is town.

Also, thanks to the commute inventor.

VOTE: Shakira Confirmed.

Here, in addition to the variation on "LC scum would nightkill me" (see below), there's me believing that SC was claiming the commute, something I knew to be impossible.

VOTE: Mastina
I can do this. Sonic needs to see Mastina's scum.

I repeat: good luck with that.

What, you honestly think I'm arrogant enough to think I can't be lynched when there's no strings attached? I had good fucking REASON to be confident I would never be lynched.

You make a lot of leaps and conclusions here.

Nope, not really!

This referencing how me BEING the commute inventor, making conclusions about the commute inventor is not at all a leap.

I don't care what results there are on you.
You claim to get the commute invent, then you'll lose a 1v1 against me.

Because, duh, I am the commute inventor and gave it to NACHO, and Nacho+me > SC.

Shakira Confirmed:

Let's get this very clear.

Did you, or did you not, receive a commute, on N1?
Did you, or did you not, receive a commute, on N2?

I don't care whether it's

Fluminator

or

Marquis

.
Clear answer. Now.

^It was very clear what I was doing there.

i don't know if he was trying to pull a gambit or something but we didn't get a commute

Okay then. Proceed as normal.

i'm fairly sure the commute inventor is scum though setupwise and choice-of-target-wise tho lol

Because a town having no protective power is totally a good idea, and the commuter giving it out to likely nightkill targets is totally a scum-motivated move.

After they took the comment back, I dropped the push, and when they said that the commute-inventor was scum, I went to this bit.

but not impossible, or even unlikely with a

weak cop INVENTION

around

Weak cop inventor INCREASES the need for the commuter to be town, not DECREASES. If the commute inventor wasn't town, then (1) the results from the weak cop would be borderline useless, nullifying THE ENTIRETY OF THE TOWN'S POWER, and (2) without a breaking strategy being made (which Antihero, I imagine, would try his hardest to prevent), it would be fully possible for the town to lose a BUNCH of town players to unclaimed investigations. As in, a bunch of players investigate scum, without claiming their target in advance, because they don't KNOW about the power in advance, and die as a result, in addition to the scum nightkill. That didn't happen this game, but it was something that COULD have happened and it's ridiculous to think that Anti wouldn't be aware of it.

1) and yet not actual nightkill targets so this is kind of fallacious by the odds

There are dozens of reasons why the commute inventor wouldn't gift to Bins, and you'd have to be INSANE to think that the commute inventor would EVER have gifted to ZZZX. So not stopping the nightkills is entirely reasonable. Give it time; sooner or later, the commute inventor is going to get it right.
The commute inventor is town.

a commute inventor has massive utility for scum

(1) so much utility that IT'D OVERPOWER THE SCUM, (2) they wouldn't target town (and yet LC claimed it D2) as to remain anonymous, (3) and would take as many steps as needed to make sure the power was secretive, (4) SPECIFICALLY TO MESS WITH INVESTIGATIONS LIKE THE WEAK COP. Flaunting it out by giving it to likely nightkill targets? Again. Not scum.

Also, the game would be pretty broken if both the commuter and cop are town.

The game would be broken if the commuter was scum, as has been discussed. Seriously. This is a 17-player game with four scum. That is scumsided by itself; town needs some serious power to counter it, and giving the town the weak cop and the commute is the perfect way to get that, because they both have a built-in double-edged sword: the commuter can't be investigated, and the weak cop if getting a guilty will die, reducing the number of town players at a potentially-rapid rate, especially since the weak cop won't know to announce who they're targeting in advance because they won't know they're going to receive it.
Maybe the scum have a power role like rolecop or roleblocker, but frankly they don't need one. Towns need roles to win games, especially in scum-heavy games. Anti's smart enough to know this.

I had DARN good reason to be ticked; this was a proxy-attack against me, so I made a not-at-all-subtle defense of myself.

I'm fairly sure mastin knows what she's doing here. LC might too, but I feel a lot better about mastin than I do about LC, to be honest.

I'm pretty sure I know what I'm doing, too, but I'm not infallible.

That being said

, still insisting LC's town. Again, I'd be dead otherwise.

^Me commenting on my choice in protections.

13v4 games generally are going to be incredibly scumsided unless you beef the town up with some serious power. Weak cop + commute are perfect for that, giving defensive and investigative powers which feature a double-sworded edge.

Work from the world you know, the world as it is, not the world as you imagine it is.

The world as I know is that the commuter is giving the commute to probable nightkill targets, and thus is town.

I accurately pointed out no sane doctor (which the commute inventor serves as) would EVER have protected ZZZX (one nightkill), and there are DOZENS of reasons why the commute inventor wouldn't have protected Bins (among them being: not townreading her, not seeing her claim, not thinking she would be nightkilled, thinking someone else--Lying Cat--was far better a target, etc.), the other nightkill. We have a sample size of two. In short, just because the commute-inventor hasn't stopped a nightkill yet doesn't mean they won't. Sure, doc saves in games are pretty dang rare thanks to sheer probability and the doctor not being in the know, but if the doc lives long enough, then it's BOUND to happen sooner or later.

^More on the setup, defending myself by proxy.

I just know that in my limited experience with you, you proved unwilling to reevaluate given new information, and that's what I'm warning against.

And the new information is that the commuter is even more town than before.

^Pretty much the same here.

Don't have much choice; this is an obligation of mine. (It's not just here, either, btw, but this game's the place it's most pertinent.)
I need to fix it. I'll figure out a way. Kinda have to.

Homework assignment: read my posts in other games at the time.

They used a standard message. In those other games, it was the same basic thing in each game.
...EXCEPT for this game. This game, I specifically modified my prod-dodge posting to be different from the ones I made elsewhere. Why? Because, at the time, I had not submitted a commute invent, and I really needed to. My posting was meant to convey as much.

It would be a Very Bad Idea (TM) for you to lynch someone before I get caught up in the game, m'kay? Because I'm still working on yesterday. I know the flip. I know nothing else. I haven't done anything for this game, which means my options are to do things blindly or to get caught up and I would vastly prefer the 'get caught up' option. So, uh...please wait for me just a little bit longer?

Translation: I haven't sent a commute in, yet, so it'd be a bad idea to lynch someone before I get caught up and submit one. My options would be to submit a commute in blindly, or catch up. Please wait so I can make an informed decision.

(I'm really turning into a repeat of the first game, only worse. I'll fix it, I just can't fix it RIGHT NOW.)

Again, referencing Organic Chemistry. Where I was the protective inventor.

Who the hell was townreading Flubber? Flubb was up for being mislynched, on multiple days. Commute inventor can't have predicted that. Who in their right minds would ever protect ZX? Nobody. There are many, MANY reasons Bins wouldn't be protected, from not seeing the claim to not believing it to not thinking scum would kill her.
The commute inventor hasn't stopped a kill yet...but given the very, very pro-town choices the commute inventor has been making, to protect players of value to the town that were likely to die, you can be assured that they are doing their damnedest to try.

But if the commute inventor was scum, and they knew that scum wanted to nightkill Bins, what is the disadvantage of giving the commute to Lying Cat? They know that the commute isn't going to prevent their nightkilll! They look good by giving the commute to a townish slot.

As has been previously discussed? Outting the existence of the commute invent. Using it on town rather than on scum to hide from the other inventors. Confirming players as town who claim the commute in a town manner and manage to use it effectively. Basically, it'd turn a SUPER-POWERFUL SCUM WEAPON into something that can only benefit the town. All for the sake of towncred they're likely not to actually get?
No. Just no.
The commute inventor is town.

^Further self-defense about my role. The latter quote also contains some rather nice descriptors of my mindset as a commuter.

The first priority of an inventor should be in figuring out who to submit their invention to, long-before the day is anywhere near completion, making the order unnecessary. (Though this is assuming, of course, the inventors actually are around in the early stages of the day phase. If they're absent and basically just prod-dodging, goes without saying that there's a risk they may not have submitted something yet because they're waiting until they can get good info. This particularly applies to the commute inventor, whose job it is to predict the next nightkill, thus, necessitating them being caught up in the thread. The action can always be changed, of course, but there's the matter of blindly sending it to someone who might not be trustworthy, and the day ending before they have the chance to figure that out. Pretty much the only players that the commute inventor can safely avoid that on are the conftown players, but that's assuming that they haven't already been protected when that is a probability, since giving it to the same conftown twice or arguably even to conftown twice might not be effective because scum are expecting it meaning that the shot is wasted.
...The tl;dr of all the above? Basically, it's essential for the commute inventor to be caught up. They need to submit an action, as informed as possible, and the more time that is given for that, the better. Not sure I'm describing that adequately enough.)

It can't get much more blatant than this.

And that's just the first page of my iso.

There's more, too, like all my various declarations of, "If LC were scum, I'd be dead right now" because it was obvious LC knew I was the commuter, and why would they leave me alive as scum was my thought. (I honestly don't have an answer to that--which is is literally the only fucking thing which gives me any semblance of a doubt on them. Yet my mind's flooded with dozens of answers, among them being that since I was so painfully transparent with who my targets were, I simply wasn't a threat; I was an asset, helping them with my targets and reads.)

[mastin2]

And you didn't commute the known inventor why exactly? Bullshit.

BECAUSE I WAS FUCKING GAMBITING BY RUNNING WITH LC'S GAMBIT AND PROTECTED

THEM

INSTEAD.
THAT'S THE WHOLE. FUCKING. REASON. THAT I'M VOTING THEM RIGHT NOW.

You and LC are scum together.

You say this, but you'll never vote my "scumbuddy".

And you two magically work together to come up with him claiming your invent? Bullshit.

Yes. The moment LC claimed the "uninformed masons" with Nacho as a target, LC was planning it, and I caught the plan and thought it was a good idea, so I ran with it as much as I could.

And all the detritus and excremental YOURE spewing is your real gambit Mastin- the one to get one of you and LC the town cred you need to have any shot of winning this because there's "no way scum would hard bus at this point". Because there's too many us who are town reading each other, even if it's grudgingly, to not POE the shit out of you two. That's your last ditch effort. And I'm stopping it before it starts.

Uh-huh. Because I'd

totally

bus near lylo.

And I'd totally kill Cerb when all that'd do is paint suspicion squarely on me (when yesterday, aside from you, I was universally townread!), throwing away all my towncred to instigate a 1v1 that I'd be destined to lose. Just to get rid of a player...who was potentially a viable mislynch. Yeah. That's totally my scumplay. Because I'm clearly desperate. I'm clearly the type who doesn't control games as scum and has no need for such outlandish "last-ditch" kills. Sounds just like me!

LC's probably scum.
But,
VOTE: Jaqen Hghar
...There's a small

sliver

of a chance that LC is town and Jaqen is himself the one who made the kill.
In short, LC's almost certainly scum.
But Jaqen?

Jaqen IS scum.

[mastin2]

(In hindsight, maybe the post where I quoted all the crumbs should have been spoilered.
Butyeah. I'm fully prepared to eat the rope today, since I realize I'm probably burning every single bridge I have today to push this. But I'm willing to accept that fate.)

[mastin2]

oh shit mastin already posted all her crumbs.

Not all, just over half. (For instance, I'm rather proud of my not-actually-claiming-VT dodge to the massclaim I did. I implied I was one without actually lying and saying I was one, because duh, of course I'm not.)

Mastin - you should not have given LC the commute. It was a misplay.

No fucking shit!

It really wasn't the time for a gamble.

It seemed like a good idea at the time. Scum should have thought the protection was still on Cerb. Scum should have thought that LC was the commute inventor they'd need to kill in order to get rid of the protection. Yet...they didn't.

mastin, on day 2 you were basically calling Lying Cat super obvious town because he said that he received the commute. This would make perfect sense if he was the commute inventor and you realized that he was gambitting. But it makes zero sense if you're the commute inventor. Please explain.

Actually, you can read my posts and see there's a very clear progression. On D1, I was not being subtle with my decision to target them, so I was gambling that they would be town. On day two, I thought it likely they were town, but I wasn't absolutely sure. It wasn't until day three that I said that I was absolutely sure LC was town, because D2 was the day LC knew about the commute, and D3 is the day that I was alive after LC had known about the commute.

mastin, can you, with post numbers, walk me through your thought process yesterday? I want to know how Lying Cat knew that you were the commute inventor. I also want to know how you realized that he was going to claim commute inventor.

Read my fucking posts? I know it's a ridiculously long wall, but read my post--all of it--about the 'crumbs on the first page of my iso. I wasn't being subtle about my identity to them. Even if other players might have missed it, they made it very clear that they had not. The moment they bragged about "uninformed masons", their intention was clear to me: imagine that every instance of "uninformed masons" in LC's iso is replaced with "commute invent target", and suddenly you realize that they were claiming, "Hey, we targeted mastin N1 with our commute. We targeted Nacho N2 with our commute." And also, they wanted me to target TSO N3 with the commute. I took a different route, but their intention remained clear to me all the same.

I'm also surprised that scum have successfully managed to kill off several obvious threats (e.g. Bins, Sonic Boom, Cerb) without ever getting blocked. That requires some serious skill.

And that's one reason why I believe that it's likely for scum to know who I was targeting. I was not at all subtle with my hints as to who I would target. (I can go onto the second page of my iso and quote all of the 'crumbs there, too, to help continue proving it, but really, read my fucking post; I was ridiculously blatant.) So long as the scumteam included someone who knew I was the commute inventor, they'd know who not to target. And LC's one of the main people who knew.

Who got the commute last night? Because it really should have been Cerb.

Yes, I know, I fucked up; it should have been Cerb, but I was convinced the scum were going to try and take LC out, first, so I targeted him instead. Which is the whole damn point of why I posted as I did: because LC and I are the only two players that should've known about the gambit I had pulled.

But Mastin, if LC is scum you would have already been dead.

The one bit of doubt in my head revolves around that, yes.

Thus why I'm voting you, not them.

Get your head out of your ass and don't waste the effort I've put in here.
VOTE: Jaquen

Well, your alignment regardless, I'm voting with you, so there's that?

[mastin2]

But imagine how cool it would have been if it worked. cerb lives, mastin lives, i live. we gain a spare mislynch and all three of us are solidly confirmed. game goes from being a lock to a blowout, all because mastin outguessed the scum. She just didn't account for the possibility of failure.

^Can confirm this is more or less the case.

...Though in hindsight, probably really was stupid to out myself. If you

are

scum, then your chances of getting lynched today actually went down when I claimed rather than going up.

[mastin2]

mastin, why did you feel the need to post so many role breadcrumbs? And why did you feel the need to breadcrumb who you were giving commutes to?

Honestly, not a clue.
I mean, I could probably make up a reason if you'd like, and if I was scum, preeeeeeeetty dang sure I would have made up a reason for doing so, but legit haven't the slightest clue. It's just what I do? Honestly don't think I really thought that far ahead, just decided to do it and that was that.

mastin:

Please do the following. Flip a coin. If tails- give me the commute. If heads- give the commute to whoever you think scum try to kill. Do not breadcrumb/acknowledge/respond to this post even if you think this is a bad idea.

Hey, I think I need to respond to the post; it tells you that I've seen it. I just don't need to SAY anything about it. (I'm at least

beginning

to wise up about stuff like that. )

Do you think Ank would have replaced out as scum? If he's scum, he was doing so well...

Devil's advocate, Ank replaced out of demotivation which can happen as scum, but realistically? No. I know the reason Ank flaked was because of the disinterest, and being practical, that's far more likely to come from town.

Where is PeregrineV?

Well, weekend, so he's probably V/LA. But I don't recall much activity prior to the weekend from him, so this is an alarmingly good point.

I'm kinda starting to think that LC is scum again. Makes a lot of sense in combination with the night kills. N1- he had the commute so he knew they could kill the claimed not-VT. N2/3- he had kept saying that scum would be aiming for recipients of the weak cop rather than the weak cop inventor... and then weak cop candidates died. N4- Sonic Boom died, a surprising choice for anyone but maybe LC knew that mastin wouldn't give the invention to them. N5- makes sense for obvious reasons.

This, and the fact that if they're scum it fills a lot of the mental gaps in the what-if scenarios, are more reason for my concern about them.

Let's be honest - regardless of your flip, "hammering both scum" is a red herring given how little you actually did to get them to that point.

^.

Mylo favors scum
LyLo favors town

Please tell me when in the name of god would we no lynch with a confirmed townie?

^Yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeaaah, that. We could go into tomorrow with potentially up to three players conftown, depending on levels of paranoia, out of either six or seven.

[mastin2]

I know because Ankamius is a student of mine.

Repeatedly.

If you're up for another topic, can you talk about how to avoid getting detached from games? This is my biggest struggling point and it's a huge struggle to stay caught up in games that either move insanely fast or have too much irrelevant noise (walls fit somewhat into this).
I can be effective in games when I have a grasp on the game, but disengaging and becoming a nonfactor happens far more often.

[mastin2]

Fuck me. Wicked lost the coin toss (it was heads), so I protected Constantine, figuring that Constantine was conftown whereas Wicked while mostly conftown wasn't quite there.
I should've protected Wicked

anyway

in spite of him having lost the toss, because he DID say "if not me, then whoever you want", and he was a candidate ANYWAY. (Like, before he made that post, I was mentally coinflipping between him and Constantine. After, I did an OFFICIAL coinflip.)

And now it's lylo and I don't know what to do. :/

Like. Dead serious. I'm hoping that I get voted by three players for having survived the night, with the remaining two not voting me. Because that way? That way, at least I'll have a minimum of 2/3rds chance of finding and voting scum.

Doesn't help that I'm

V/LA from tomorrow until Monday

...much moreso than normal.

[mastin2]

This game's dead.
And that's very, very bad.

Like.
I kinda want to say TSO's town and the scum're lurking elsewhere, but PV's voted, and an LC-vezok team doesn't really mentally mesh so well since LC was pushing vezok as scum quite a bit if I remember correctly.

[mastin2]

I don't know.
I just...don't know.

[mastin2]

My thoughts are: two extremely uncharacteristic misplays made consecutively, when neither of them was on. That's not town mastin.

Misplays, yes. But only given hindsight, in the manner of trusting-Xombie's-3P-claim-type hindsight.

Believe me.

The game would be

so

much easier if I were actually scum.

So. SO much simpler. I wouldn't need to scumhunt. I wouldn't need to try and wrack my mind to figure out why I didn't die, and why Wicked was the kill instead of me or Constantine. I'd have a plan right now, some visible path to victory. Because that's what I do as scum.

But there isn't any. The delusions of grandeur I had of catching scum have all come crashing down. This is very much characteristic of me. I

wish

it wasn't. That I had stopped the kill, or even that being successful with my PRs was the norm, but while I develop those strategies. While I always have a plan for their usage when town. The last time it actually amounted to anything was Drawn on Arrival. Every other time, the plan's backfired in my face. They look good in theory, on paper, but they never work in practice, because there's always something, always this one little thing, that keeps them from being absolutely successful.

I dunno where I'm going with this. I think there was supposed to be a point in here, but I've lost track of whatever it was. I'm kinda just rambling, venting a little frustration, I guess. I'm a bit demotivated, but...I owe the game the effort of trying. If you're town, I should be trying to defend myself. If you're scum, I should be going on the offensive, attacking you. Since I don't know which, I should be trying to sort you. But right now, I don't really know

how

I would.

Nothing's clicking.

Which is, again, why I reiterate. I'd pretty much just prefer to be voted by two or three players right now (you making one of them), and if I'm not hammered by the other two, then I have a 2/3rds chance of hitting scum. That'd give me motivation, incentive, to actually start efforting. I owe it to the town not to lose the game, after all. And I seem to work best under pressure.

[mastin2]

What's there to catch up on?

I wish there was content, but things are kinda dead, so...there really isn't anything?

[mastin2]

LC, when it comes to your game content, want to give it a look later. But when it comes to this:

@ antihero I'm sorry to do this, but can we initiate a force replace on Constantine? Due to recent events I'd like to WOTC him out of this game. I'd be happy to help find a replacement in any way you can allow me to. I know it's a pain in the ass, but it's inevitable that he's gonna get himself banned anyway and I'd like to have a replacement who's actually playing in the game.

It

does

have my support.

Constantine can, sometimes, play the game.
Most of the times, he...doesn't. He's on the road to a ban if he doesn't clean up his act, and I have been very tired of him so I do support this.

In short, until Constantine "grows up" and matures (hey, it can happen to them, sometimes), he's not a player I really want to play with. He's not an auto-blacklist, but he IS a WotC-worthy player and whenever someone brings up WotC for him, I support it, like I am right now.

I'm sure someone like AP would love to come in as conftown. And if not, I could probably find some player that I know to come in. (Like, I dunno, Plotinus, maybe? They're a pretty good lategame player.)

[mastin2]

I kinda...feel like voting PV, but it just feels...I dunno, too easy?

[mastin2]

can you explain why the fuck you are voting me

^.

Like, really, I want to know why everyone voting is voting who they are, but none more than PV on TSO.

[mastin2]

Scum don't really want to upset their endgame by posting much at this stage. So, that would normally clear someone, except basically everyone is hardcore lurking.

Well, it kinda sorta clears you.

Can you explain your thought process here? Because Jaqen maybe making the kill doesn't make him more likely to be scum in my eyes.

Because at the time, I was considering two options: LC-as-scum, and LC-as-town.
With LC-as-scum, I thought Jaqen would be his partner...thus, scum.
With LC-as-town, I thought Jaqen would be the person most likely to have gambitted by killing Cerberus...thus, scum.
In either case, LC's alignment regardless, I thought it made Jaqen scum.

[mastin2]

Wait, hold on a bit.

I need to check something.

If I'm right...then PV would be all-but confscum.

[mastin2]

Not what I was looking for, but worthy of note:

ika - 7 (vezokpiraka,

T S O

)
T S O - 1 (PeregrineV)
Not Voting: Lying Cat[/color]

So basically, the only way ika

wasn't

double-bussed is if PV is scum.

Wouldn't it be something if, in actuality,

neither

scum bussed ika?

Worthy of note is that LC was also off the Aristophanes wagon, and the PVslot was only on it because the PVslot was the counterwagon.

[mastin2]

Btw, not sure if this should be said, but fuck it, might as well say it.
If we do end up going the no-lynch route, my protection isn't on Constantine.
Yes, I know, he's conftown. I should be protecting him.

But he's so. damn. bad. That

he's not worth it

.
Frankly, I think our odds of winning go UP by leaving him vulnerable to NK, rather than down. I mean, if you guys have any objections to that, you can state 'em. Of course if Constantine gets replaced I will instantly put the protection back on the slot, but if Constantine remains in the game...yeah. It'd pretty much take a full lynch majority telling me to do so before I'd be willing to protect Constantine himself. The slot may be conftown and valuable. He himself is

utterly negating that

.

[mastin2]

What I was mainly looking for in PV, btw, mostly begins with stuff like this:

That leaves Mastin, Hermit and Lying Cat.
I don't have mastin as scum, but I don't have him as town. (I should probably read all his posts, but...seriously.....)
Hermit's playerslot looks town form early ISOs. I think I didn;t like one vote placement, but that's the only bad standout.
Lying Cat I want to say is town, but I haven't looked at his ISO too closely either.
But, he posts stuff like this in which he has 1 town, and 4 leaning town as scumreads).
I guess how many more are we looking for? 2,right?

The Constantine suspicion in particular. He may, legitimately, not have known or understood why Constantine is conftown. Yet here's not the only spot.

I'[m confused on the commute thing. Did Shakira receive the commute night1, or Mastin? Why does the commute claim from Lygin Cat come with no other information that might allow us to cross-check things?

Here, too. And here:

3. Mastin is town for a different reason than I am. Though we

are

uninformed masons. I uninformed mazonized nacho's slot last night too, I'll choose TSO tonight.

UNVOTE:
Nacho, please tell me if this is true. You haven't commented on it.

I commuted last night so he didn't do shit to me.

This seems to contradict the Shakira Confirmed action of blocking Lying Cat.
pedit- cross checking, so not sure yet.

It's basically right there, but not the "a-ha!" moment I thought it might've been.

But basically, I was thinking that PV might not have understood the mechanics of the town PRs, and thus, made what in any normal circumstance would've been a suicidal nightkill, on Cerberus.

[mastin2]

I don't know.

PV's a near-constant in my head, but not universally.
One moment, I think vezok.
The next, I think LC.
Pretty much the only one I'm not seeing as scum is TSO, since by play, by actions, I just don't see it. If he's scum, he could pretty much vote anybody and get away with it and win, because I'm simply not seeing him as scum right now.

PV-vezok I can see, but then why the PV vote from vezok? PV-LC I can also see, but only weakly. LC-vezok I don't really see, but I don't really not see it either, if that makes sense. Like, I just get a blank when thinking about it.

I still sort-of want to vote PV, but I just don't know.

[mastin2]

I have no idea why you feel both Kari and Aristo were wagons on scum - PV being Kari is a significant point in his favour.

I dunno, just feels like that whole section of the game was "off"? Like, I feel like something was happening there, it's hard to put into tangible words, that was not organic. (...No pun intended.)

[mastin2]

Mastin and LC - whoever is town among you - you are letting me down so fucking badly here. Seriously.

I'm doing everything in my power

not

to let you down.

PEREGRINE STOP VOTING ME YOU FUCKING MORON I THINK YOU ARE TOWN AND I AM BLEEDING TOWN SO GET. YOUR. FUCKING. VOTE. OFF.

Alternatively, he is scum voting town because he can get away with it?

(This, incidentally, answers your question below: PV's my choice, because he looks, more than any other player, to be scum right now, with that vote and his activity--rather lack of it.)

Also, PV said no to getting Constantine out of the game, sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo...yeah.

[mastin2]

His early contribution was decent.

TSO, you probably don't want to hear this, but, uh...this line from you sounds familiar.

Spoiler: I'm so sorry, TSO

I have gradually started to feel a little dirty voting ika. I presumed his ISO would be full of prod dodges for days, but ...it looks like he was actually trying? Which worries me.

Ika's scumgame is worse than this.

Look at d1 posts in his ISO.

The other guy does it too is not a defense Ika.

Hillary Duff is town.
Ank is overly agreeable.

Vezok looks town.

~Titus

its not a defense, its dicussion.

congratulations on misrepping my intentions and not reading the context or even trying to understand the relationship that tere and i share.

also tere is a female

pffffffff take 2:

Flames682
vezokpiraka
Mac
Sonic Boom (Metal Sonic + Titus)
Wickedestjr
Lying Cat (sthar8 + Jingle)
mastin2
hiplop
Jaqen Hghar
Flubbernugget

everyone else not in this list is town to me atm

Flames is town.

Wicked is nulltown - significantly enough that it's worth mentioning at least.

your gonna have to sell me on flames town right now.

wicked i have as null at best right now

Maybe. Do you have any unexplainable town reads as well?

No! But I don't have any really strong townreads yet either. I only get them after I start interacting with people.

Well im here!

What are your current reads right now comapred to my POE reads atm?

This level of effort seems unlikely to come from ika-scum.

I agree that every day since d1 has been ika scum-meta. Even so, I'm really not sold on ika-scum

I believe ika's scumgame is literally fucking awful. As in, if ika is posting, ika is town.

Peregrine - I read his early ISO, reconciled it with my knowledge of ika-scum, which is admittedly limited, decided it didn't fit like I thought it had, and got off.

I quoted posts where I felt ika tried. I am fairly sure that you're acquainted with ika's scum meta and how poor it can be, so I don't understand why you of all people are asking me this?

Yes, you reconsidered, but the fact remains you

did

defend ika using that same logic, and it was wrong.

I think PV is pulling an ika here.

[mastin2]

Know what?

Screw it.

I already said any scumteam with TSO on it has already won the game basically. So I'm ruling out TSO-LC. And Constantine's conftown, ruling out TSO-Constantine or Constantine-LC.

So I can actually cast a real vote rather than a pseudovote on PV, regardless of LC's alignment.
VOTE: PeregrineV.
Did consider having the tags be just bold, because it's right there on the line, but I really do think he's scum. Strongly enough to cast that vote.

[mastin2]

Aristophanes - 8 (Flubbernugget, T S O, Kari, Sonic Boom, Fluminator, Cerberus v666, Nachomamma8, Jaqen Hghar)

Kari - 4 (Aristophanes,

vezokpiraka

, Wickedestjr, Lying Cat)

Actually,

if scum bussed

Kari, that would point to you being scum, vezok.

?

[mastin2]

Oh.

My bad, I was reading what you said and thought you were saying, "if scum bussed Aristophanes", when vezok was off.

What you said makes a lot more sense now.

[mastin2]

...Though now that you mention it.

I refuse to believe that the Aristophanes wagon was all-town.

Yeah, one of vezok/LC has to be scum, but I refuse.
Absolutely

refuse

.
To believe the Aristophanes wagon didn't have so much as a single scum on it.

And PV's slot is the only one fitting the bill.

[mastin2]

And a TSO-vezok team's ruled out as if there was any doubt.

[mastin2]

...Or maybe not.

[mastin2]

GOD FUCKING DAMMIT!

Best scumgame I've ever played.
BEST FUCKING SCUMGAME I'VE EVER PLAYED.
Ever, of all time.
Which we were in the clear to win.
Which there was no way we could have lost.
Especially since we were lynching town in mylo.

AND WE LOST.

I call bullshit.

(...Well-done, PV.)

[mastin2]

Also, dead serious, Anti: release the damn mafia PT. I want that read by everyone.

I had this game nailed down. I knew Flubber was the cop-inventor on D2 and would've nightkilled him N2 if I hadn't been overruled by vezok and ika, who convinced me it was ZX.

[mastin2]

Linky. (Though Anti needs to make it public.)

Speaking of which, I wanna read the dead PT.

[mastin2]

I'm graceful though. (Nomination.)

[mastin2]

Speak for yourself, ika.

There were plenty of competent town players. LC's gamebreaking and Nacho's Aristophanes lynch being big ones. Jaqen hammering two scum, too. Plus PV's game-winning lie. Flubber was dangerously competent when he was in the game, too. (If he had been in the game, we'd have killed him instead of Sonic.)
Vezok did a good job of being pro-scum in agenda while being near-universally townread, and this IS the best scumgame of mine of all time.
So both sides did really really well.

[mastin2]

Oh! I will say though, mastin, that your unnecessary virtual clear of TSO via the logic of his unnecessary clear on Wicked if scum (which subtly supported the idea of yourself as town within itself, which is fucking incredible), was masterful and dropped you from my 2nd lynch target that day and into certain town. So, kudos on that.

Well, I'd call it pretty necessary. Someone else could have stumbled upon the same logic (you almost did yourself!), and it made sense to ME, so I posted it. I figured I wasn't really losing much, but I could have gained potential allies from it. Which I did.

[mastin2]

BEST FUCKING SCUMGAME I'VE EVER PLAYED.

oh really
titus already had you pegged day 1

You can never have a scumgame where you're universally townread.

When you can see the scum topic, you'll understand why. Titus wasn't a threat--she was an asset. She singlehandedly mislynched hiplop, after all. I didn't need her to townread me; I used her scumread on me to destroy the town.

[mastin2]

Still incredibly frustrated I lost over a BS role.

I was controlling the game the entire time, intentionally stalling the hiplop lynch, encouraging townVtown fights and whatnot, manipulating things, and was posed to win.

Then didn't.

Ah, well.
It's a moral victory for me.

[mastin2]

whoospies, did i say pv was a poisoner...?
i was a little tad off

HE WAS A VT

the (actual) winner of inorganic was the mafia of
mastin2, vezokpiraka, Aristophanes, and ika

Anti.

You're a dick.

the only pt i'm going to be releasing is the dead pt

You're

really

a dick.

I'm sad that I had a PR. I don't think I would have been NK'd otherwise, and I'm pretty sure I was the only one who thought the commute inventor was possibly scum even before I died.

Actually, you wouldn't have been a terrible nightkill even without your PR for the reasons Jaqen mentioned: you're fairly competent. It's just that without your PR, you wouldn't have been a direct threat.

Interesting interactions this game, like...there were two nights where scum were nearly roleblocked.

Conveniently, though, there'd have been no way to have told the difference between a successful block and a successful commute. All a successful block would do is lend credence to my commute having been valid, which is one of the reasons why I risked sending ika/vezok (the more suspicious players) to do the nightkills: because I knew that even if they failed, I could write it off as a successful doctor on my part, and bam, insta-towncred.

The only night I went to kill myself was when killing you, because I had a window of JUST that ONE night.

The last day was incredibly frustrating for me, as vezok and mastin were both transparent scum to me, but I appreciate both LC and PV had their reasons for not posting.

Well to be fair, TSO, I said it in the mafia PT: I knew I was winning the game, so I didn't really need to look town anymore. I figured Constantine was voting whoever got the most votes, so as long as that wasn't vezok (it certainly wasn't going to be me), we'd have won. So I needed to get attention off of vezok, did so successfully by deflecting it onto PV, and let silence and apathy do the rest. But I knew very full and well what I was doing was a scumclaim. I just didn't care since I could get away with it.

[mastin2]

I find it amusing how so many people post game and in the dead thread are claiming they knew Mastin was scum. If that were true, you guys would have FREAKING LYNCHED HER. Lol

Well that's part of my job. I blatantly violated SO many of my towntells during this game, breaking them and smashing them to smithereens. I have GODLY-good situational awareness. I saw the strings controlling the system and plucked them as needed. I knew that Flubber was the cop-inventor, I was able to set up situations where town players took the fall for me (hiplop and in a way, LC), I managed to post enough effort and insight to make people think I was town, yet leave things such that I could always revisit them as needed. (For instance, me clearing TSO. I took the clear back in mylo you'll note, only to reinstate it because I figured I might as well acknowledge that he was the best town player in the game at that point. )

Was disappointed with one thing, though. The Aristophanes wagon was very bad for the scum. It had it's merits, of course: We didn't need Aristophanes because we had already basically locked the town's PRs down (well, not Cerb, but Cerb claimed the day after Aristophanes died almost immediately so we didn't have to), Aristophanes's role gave credence to the idea both remaining inventors were town (something I desperately needed, since I was running a little low on towncred at that point), and the fact that the wagon was entirely town meant that anyone thinking so much as a single scum was on the wagon would be pursuing a town lynch.

But, well...we lost our insurance against surprise PRs (which thankfully there weren't any of), and far more importantly...ALL THE SCUM WERE OFF THE ARISTOPHANES WAGON. If anyone was

persistent

in insisting that to be the case, we would have been

screwed

. Soyeah, had to promptly dodge that lil' bullet.

[mastin2]

I only realized mastin was scum after she promised me she would listen to my vezok scum read and then completely swept it under the rug after I was dead, so good play there especially!

I actually legitimately forgot I had made that promise.

Mastin did good eliminating the people who suspected her.

People suspecting me didn't really enter my mind with regards to the nightkills.

This was actually a VERY large break in my scumgame.

Traditionally, I kill players who I deem a threat off of their status. Nacho, LC, TSO, and the like.

This game, EVERY SINGLE NIGHT, my nightkill was for strategic, role-based reasons. Bins was a claimed PR, wide open to attack. (Or if something stopped the attack, then I'd have immediate towncred with LC.) We in the scum PT knew that of all people Sonic Boom receiving the weak cop meant that the pool for the weak cop inventor was EXTREMELY limited. They talked me into believing it was ZX, but we copped Flub, my original (and correct) pick. Then we killed him. With Cerb claimed, I had an excuse to be on him, and to let conftown die. With Flum replaced, though, I didn't want to kill Constantine (who, frankly, I saw as an asset to the scumteam), so settled on Sonic Boom purely because of them being conftown. (Not because I thought of them a threat; I saw them as an asset, just not as much as one as Constantine. Had flum stayed, it'd have been him dead, Sonic Boom alive. Wicked was a possibility, but because the clear on him had ambiguity, I didn't consider him at the time.) Cerb was admittedly a bit of a risk, but I killed him to get rid of the roleblocks that could have extended the game (giving the town an auto-victory), gambiting on LC's gambit providing me with the cover I needed to not be confscum from it. And Wicked I killed because Wicked himself ironically gave me the out I needed to not protect him. Had he not done the coinflip idea, I would have had to come up with the BS that I used in-thread anyway ("Constantine was completely conftown, Wicked only mostly conftown, and LC said he'd kill Wicked which is a good reason for me to not protect Wicked and protect someone else"), only with much less legitimacy. (Constantine was never a kill option, because, again. He was an asset to use.)

[mastin2]

Mastina, is that why you killed me? I was the lone person scumreading you?

Again, scumreads never factored into my kill. (Nor would they ever. What kind of idiot do you think I am, killing people who suspect me? I might kill AP, mollie, or zMuffinman if they suspect me, sure, yeah, but other than that? If I kill someone, it's because I think they're competent, not because I think they're dangerously close to being right. Which is one reason I dreaded the fact that, at one point in the game, the most viable mislynches were

Nacho

,

TSO

, and

Lying Cat

. At that moment in the game, I fully, entirely, thought we were screwed. )

[mastin2]

Also, I'm sorry if this is rubbing salt in your wounds, sthar8, but I kinda feel compelled to quote this.

Also, worth noting in the ISO for mastin in that game, her flowchart needs a caveat. She can't beat me. We've won together. We've lost together. But I've never lost a game to mastin. It's like I'm her kryptonite. So if you think mastin's scum, get me to replace in.

I FINALLY BROKE THE CYCLE!

[mastin2]

Well frankly, I didn't really care if ika got caught. He was expendable, and honestly the more and more he lurked, the more and more he was a liability. And, regardless of what you think about ika's play this game, bluntly, he and I simply didn't get along. There was animosity between us, so if he got caught, I admit, I actually thought our odds of winning could potentially go UP.

Plus, vezok the other goon had good towncred, I certainly wasn't risking myself (I NEVER make the kill for my scumteam; even when I'm a goon, I might send my PR-buddy to do it, and as a PR, HECK no), and Aristophanes was also a PR I didn't want to risk being caught, soyeah. Ika.

[mastin2]

(Incidentally, this is why the interactions between me and ika were so 'good': because we hated each other's guts, we both reacted negatively to one another, allowing us to create some VERY good distancing.)

[mastin2]

I could see Jaqen as scum. I don't agree with his reads at all and it's reminiscent of mastin's ego/bravado/arrogance as scum - "SHEEP ME AND YOU WILL SEE." Then 2 days later half the town is dead.

And then, lategame, I proceeded to do exactly that!
>SHEEP ME, NACHO IS SCUM.
>SHEEP ME, JAQEN IS SCUM.
>SHEEP ME, PERE IS SCUM.

WHOOPSIES!

[mastin2]

Oh, and btw: now that said tell is broken, Jingle...
...What WAS said tell that made you think I was town, anyway?
I can guess, but I'd like to know what it was.

[mastin2]

I am going to lynch the fuck out of mastin in any game with her she pulls an oh gee golly can't catch up routine. It is known

And you will hit me as town nine times out of ten.

I went into a lengthy explanation of this in the mafia PT. But when I'm demotivated, I'm demotivated. When I'm busy, I'm busy.
My level of awareness of the gamestate is different as town and as scum, and as a result, when I can't catch up as scum I generally have some advantage, but it is almost completely involuntary. Unlike ika, I do NOT lurk in my scumgames. If anything, I'm overactive in them, because I have more reason to be passionate about it. (Chance to show off good scumgame > another dang towngame.)

[mastin2]

i'm
a
loser
babyyyyyy
so why don't ya' kill me?

Love this song, btw.

idek why nobody is paranoid about mastin being alive still, come to think of it.

You can blame that on degradation of my towngame. People hold

such

a low opinion of me in my games these days that as scum, I can get away with a lot of stuff I never used to be able to, simply because people think I'm that incompetent. This is, of course, not deliberate (I'd never sabotage my towngame for my scumgame; if anything, by actively rambling about it every game, I'm doing vice-versa), but useful all the same. It was plausible that the scum left me alive because "lol, mastina's terrible", therefore, I didn't gain much suspicion.

mastin is being slightly too much. 4256 is literally obvious Scum theatre, no?

Yes. Yes, it was.

I had better wording planned, but I forgot it, so last minute was having a panic attack at how obvscum it sounded, because I wasn't

quite

at the point where I could freely get away with obvscum posting (even though I was getting close).

[mastin2]

the scum thread is fucking hilarious.
i wish ya'll could see it.

I'm reading the content from around that time, but I can't see why content from that particular point is any more hilarious than anything else. Care to enlighten me?

[mastin2]

The rule used to be "don't lynch mastin". The rule is now "always lynch mastin". For serious. Always. Lynch. Mastin.

Eh, it's cyclical. I'm actually coming

out

of the always-lynch part, because lynching me is losing games recently and not lynching me is winning them.

(Fun fact: I had this record off-site under another name, too. At a time, they basically always nightkilled me because I always was a threat. Then I started to suck as town and play a WICKEDLY good scumgame, so suddenly, the rule went from letting me die via nightkill, to always lynching me pronto. )

[mastin2]

it was hilarious in a situational irony kind of way. you were taunting the town from a private thread they couldn't see. i also thought it was really bond villain-esque. i imagined you sitting in a big chair and petting a fluffy white cat while you were making that post.

Not actually far off.

I am VERY fond of the villain pose. (Which is apparently a trope.) I hold a maniacal grin when making it, and literally laugh.

When I say I enjoy my scumgames, I thoroughly

enjoy

my scumgames.

[mastin2]

I find her reasons for her thoughts to frequently be terrible. I mean, I guess if people are swayed by bad logic, then she's not someone to leave alive in end game, but it just feels like the combination of paranoia about her AND her inability to consistently back up her reads in a sensible fashion leaves her as, at worst, a null threat to a scum team in the end game. I do admittedly have limited experience with her though.

I actually went over this. Easily missed because it's in GD rather than MD, but...

Spoiler: Long post

52% INFP

I don't use Logic, I don't use PoE, I don't use the method of seeing who is tied to who. I read people almost solely based on what I am observing what people are saying and relating that to how it makes me feel. I am always trying to find out if someone is being genuine or not and it is my primary way of picking out scum. I have picked out scum in RVS in an offsite game and even though I thought they were scum, even though I tried to make a case out it it, people did not think I actually had anything. It wasn't until later in the game that I made the case that they were not scum hunting that I was able to substantiate my read with evidence. As a Feeler, coming up with reasons for my reads is by far the hardest part for me. Since I do not strictly use tangible evidence when reading people it is really hard to explain why I think someone is scum. Learning how to get my target lynched is something I have started to learn about form reading things on the wiki. So while My reads could be good, all too often people are just not buying it that my read is legit because my read is not based on logic.

This has been my problem in games, too. I struggled with it, and all I could say is that it was, "just gut". While I use PoE and seeing who is tied to who, first and foremost, my main method of catching scum is and for years has been by feeling. Yet I hated resorting to calling it gut, because it wasn't gut, it was something more that I couldn't define, something existing yet not quite tangible.

I still haven't found a perfect solution, but seeing as how I have an Academy, it goes without saying that I've developed techniques to work around it.

-First off, time. Building a reputation helps. If people know you, and I mean

know

you, then given time, they will

trust

you. So,
*Keep playing games actively, to develop bonds to actively-playing players.
*Be very, very open about things; hold as little back as you possibly can and explain as much as you can why you feel the way you do. (Even if you ramble a little or a lot, people will generally not mind. At worst, they ignore you and move on. At best? They get a fundamental understanding of where you're coming from, and you've gained a valuable friend and ally who will help you when you get a strong read you want to push.)
*Attitude matters; hold a good one. You need friends and allies, and that means they need to like you. (This doesn't apply to everyone, obviously, but I THINK it applies to both our personality types.)
*However, that being said, don't be afraid to stand up for yourself. You don't want to wave around your record of how good you are in people's faces, but don't let them tread over you and don't be afraid to point out said record exists. If you've gotten good at catching scum, it's okay to say you're not too shabby. (In short, arrogance is bad, but you're allowed to take credit where credit's due.)

-One of the largest things is a perspective shift. I used to separate logic and gut into two separate entities. Now I consider them to be different aspects of the same thing, an unnamed concept that I suppose you could loosely call perception, "sight" of things so to speak. You can gather all the logical evidence in the world, but two people viewing the exact same piece of information may reach two different conclusions--why? Because logic isn't the end-all answer; the two people are using their gut to reach a final conclusion, which may differ. Similarly, you may not be able to place what's "off" about some post/someone, but you can sense with your "gut" that it's there, so you bring up things about them that look bad: logic.
*This is why I use PoE and interactions anyway: they're "logic"-based, yet I as someone distinctly lacking in that department have used them to devastating effect, not because I'm good at logic, but because I looked at things and they "felt" right. In short,
~Interactions between players "feel" like townVtown, scumVscum, or townVscum the same way as a player "feels" like scum or town.
~PoE comes in by compiling all my "feels", putting them together, and then placing the overall picture into what it "feels" like.

-I generally tend to call things as I see it as the game progresses. It does lead to some messy, incoherent reads, because all players give off "mixed" signals. But you'd be surprised how often you're consistently calling a player out on the same things. Speaking of which,
*It's generally the overall picture that gets the job done. You probably know this one already. It requires time to accomplish, of course, but show where you're coming from. It may be difficult to get exact posts, but explain the process, and see if you can find anything that is demonstrating the type of thing you're talking about, and note how much of an example it is or isn't of that thing.

-In spite of calling things as I see it, I tend to also be fairly laid back and will be fairly casual. This allows me to more easily gauge areas like the RVS, where scum are at their most unnatural. Earlygame and lategame are where this internal sensing is at its strongest: you can pick up on scum who're "off" early-on, and you can pick up on a pattern that is "off" lategame; just recognize that you'll probably sag midgame. (Can't help ya there; I haven't fixed that problem in my own play.)

These may or may not apply to you, I don't actually know, not having seen your games before. But use whatever you can.

Spoiler: Another long one

I've taken so many MBTI/CF test that it would make your head spin. In fact, I've taken so many that I can pretty much manipulate the test's outcome to be almost whatever I want it to be.

Yep. Amazing how that works.

I will say that, for me, starting off my reads were really really bad because I just didn't know what to look for and didn't really have a clear idea in my mind as to what is scummy and what is not.

I've found that a lot of the times, there's actually a balance in things: new players typically have an insight into something that experienced players no longer can see, because they've got an alternative view--however, the downside is that they often misapply the knowledge that could be gained, and later in their career think that what they did was wrong, when in truth what they did was just "close, but not quite", requiring a fine-tuning in the process. (This is generally what I try to teach when I IC, but my mental health issues sadly prevent me from doing that teaching more often.)

Myself included. I was a godawful player when I started, and while that was mostly my fault (arrogance got to my head really, REALLY badly in 2009), it remained even after I came back. I still wasted hours, building huge walls that amounted to nothing, because I wasn't sure what I was doing. (A ton of early-2011 games have this.) It took me quite a while to realize my calling wasn't in that "what's scummy, and what's not" stuff, but in "what feelings can I trust, and what feelings can I not?", more or less.

I do have a strong sense of if someone is being genuine and this has lead me to think when someone is pulling a gambit to automatically think that they are scum.

Generally this amounts to their mindset; getting into their head reveals what's a scum gambit and what's a town gambit normally, but it's a skill which you may or may not be able to do. It's worth trying if you haven't, though. (I think it should be possible, by virtue of, "Does it make sense coming from town? From scum?" And which makes more, which I THINK you're saying you can do?)

* Being active has never been a problem for me. I have been in the past someone who is too active, choking out conversations that would otherwise take place. But this is sound advice and the more that people can see of me the more they can understand me.

What I basically meant is that you should keep playing, and being involved in the games you're playing, not lurking in them--real life gets in the way a lot, but if you're not actually there, it's harder for people to get to know you. (Harder, but not impossible. For instance, players like Bulbazak are very frequently constantly behind, yet can make friends with other players.)

* Being open is not so much the problem for me as much as knowing how to and describing why I think someone is scummy.

What I basically meant about being open is to be honest about where you're coming from. If you think a player's scummy but don't know why, there can be a heavy temptation to throw as much mud on them as possible--and you'll justifiably be called out on them with terms such as strawmanning, misrepping, and confbiasing. I've found, though, that being honest about where you're coming from can help. You can still point out the bad things, but be honest about what you're thinking. For instance, if you said, "X is scum for doing Y", you're probably lying...and others may be able to detect the deceit. If you instead say, "I think X is scum, and while I'm not sure exactly why, I think it's for stuff like Y", or something to that effect, you're telling the truth, and players are more inclined to believe you.

* I have sorta started to get a bit arrogant at this stage in my mafia career.

A little arrogance every once and a while won't hurt that badly. I have some, and if a player on MS.net claims they don't, they're probably lying. Just be careful that it stays at being "a little" and doesn't blossom into "a lot". THAT will ruin you for years. (Still haven't fully recovered from the peak of my arrogance; it haunts me to this day.)

I will say that I can do this for how others are reading me/interacting with me. I can start to get a sense of if someone is town based on the way they do or do not understand me and what I am doing.

Right, which is one reason it's good to talk to people. You probably don't need me to tell you that dominating the game's a bad idea and that sometimes, it's okay not to post. But one reason games on MS.net have exploded in length page-wise is because live interactions with other players are actually a great way to lock down a read on them. Especially if it's a townread. The more you interact, the more you can get a sense of each other, and learn to come to a consensus on what to do.

I have almost always been very good at observing what makes sense and what does not in mafia almost entirely on the way the info is presented.

You might be good in the lategame of themes, then. They often have a lot of things that have that sort of relationship. Worth trying out a bit if you're not already (I haven't actually played with you, sadly, so I don't know where you hang around), although living to that point is obviously something you don't exactly have the most control over.

-I tend to "call it like I see it" way too much actually.

What I more meant by that was that keeping your reads close to your chest will drive you crazy, and also lead to others trusting you less. Yes, you need some restraint. There's a difference between healthy paranoia, and paranoid paranoia; the latter you want to keep out of the thread as much as possible but the former you can probably put in-thread as a side-note. There's also a difference between pointing out role crumbs as you see them and keeping them to yourself; the former may be "more open", but the latter is probably what's more pro-town in general. (This is why it can sometimes help to keep notes, in case stuff comes up that you want to not forget, but which you don't want public.) You generally get the best results by saying things as you see them, but only if they feel important to mention.

I am currently trying to get a better understanding of when to comment and when to not comment on things I am observing.

This tip somewhat-contradicts an earlier tip, but occasionally, it can help to lurk. (Not excessively, just a tad bit.) You generally only need to post a couple times a day; if you're posting ten times as much, you might be posting in excess just a little bit. So sometimes, I'll lurk offline and read the game: before posting, after posting, for up to a full day. (Usually only half a day, though.) This time delay can help give you a better idea of whether what you saw was relevant or not. So the tip you got was very, very good; I'd say follow it since it's good advice.

Too lazy to delete the less-relevant stuff from there, but if you read it there, you see it described in a little more detail.

As town, I'm REALLY good at getting certain connections, certain insights, and REALLY bad at giving them actual hard reasoning. I generally have lost my effectiveness because I am a little too certain in my earlygame and not nearly certain enough in my lategame (when it used to be the other way around, which made me overall a more competent player), but in both stages, I "see" things. And I've gotten VERY good at making others see them, too, even if they don't make sense by logic as we know logic. Bit of a gift, mostly a curse.

[mastin2]

(Incidentally, I think my current scum meta is that I'm lacking confidence in my earlygame and have it in my lategame, which is what my towngame USED to be like. It'll eventually circle back, of course. My meta is not a continuous line, nor a stagnant point; it is a cylindrical wheel. The key to reading me right is to learn where I am on the wheel at that point in my life. )

[mastin2]

Mastin, you are such a cocky shit

Quite explicitly so! As scum, I'm basically invincible whenever I'm actually in the game. I've had a couple of scumgames where people all thought that they had really caught me, but they were catching the ghost of me, not actually me, because I was out of the game at the time of my death for those games. (One I won't name, the other's NY 171.) Every time I've actually

been

in the game, as scum, I've either won or gotten DARN close to it. (I think that in the last two or three years, the only scumgame of mine that I lost while in the game was Attack on Titan? And that was because of a solid town showing with solid scumplay to counter it, ending in lylo where displaced replacing in sealed scum's fate.)

There's a reason that my flowchart says, "If mastina is scum, just accept your fate; you've lost".
Nearly every game, people write off my scumgame talents as just luck, or bad townplay, but every time, fact remains that I've won and have a VERY solid record of having done so. So I brag about my scumgame when town and do a lil' bit of in-game gloating when scum. (I practically taunted Flum at points, basically going, "Well of COURSE I'm scum, doesn't mean you're going to be able to do anything about it!")

[mastin2]

vezok stepping in to answer a question for mastin, when it's already obvious the lynch MUST be on one of mastin LC, guaranteed 50/50 at worst...will the town notice?

Not sure if this is what you're talking about, but there was a point where I facepalmed because of vezok--he had me as the inventor before I revealed it, which was a scumslip on his part. Thank god that nobody but me noticed.

Careful Mastin, your scum is showing...

Like I said, I knew we had won by that point, all I had to do was wait for the inevitable to happen and make posts that vaguely looked like they were more than just the lurking they were.

In other news, I'm very sad that the town had a guaranteed 50/50 in mastin/lc, and didn't lynch either. Like, how does that happen when it was said repeatedly in the game that one of the two has to be scum.

Partially my doing. I subtly implanted the idea that smart scum could have figured out the gambit and guessed the action, OR, that dumb scum were

really

dumb and me trying to be smart managed to make the dumb-scum be genius. Between the two, I managed to keep the thought out.

But in lylo, I was fully prepared to 1v1 LC if necessary. I just didn't want to do so, and actually was flabbergasted (with relief, mind you) when LC promised a long wall and what he delivered

wasn't

a mastina vote.

[mastin2]

(Also, still very, VERY much want Anti to release the scum PT and haven't the slightest idea why he isn't other than to be a dick. I put hard work and effort into my posts in there, specifically expecting them to be read.)

[mastin2]

I really don't know why he's insisting it not be, considering there's stuff in there that he wanted public knowledge.

[mastin2]

That being said, Flum, I also at times was going, "Well,

yeah

, I'm scum, and for reasons quite similar to *something else you posted at some point*, but not for the reasons you're currently pushing. That? That's just me being, well...me."

[mastin2]

Anti, too lazy to do it right now, but would you at all mind if I quoted (editing out other scumbuddies as needed) all my posts from the mafia PT?

Dead serious, want that stuff read.