FF7 Mafia (Game Over)

[Varsoon]

I hate how you're approaching me right now.
I can't handle it.
I don't want to replace out because I know that half the people who would replace into my slot would just full-claim under pressure.
I don't need that.
I want to win this game.
If I full-claim, I almost certainly die tonight, and town doesn't get anything else out of it.
If I don't full-claim, maybe I can live a bit longer, and actually get some more info that I can do good with.
That's where I am right now.

[Varsoon]

Don't worry about protecting me OR Bulbazak--this is to any protective roles. Protect the other players in this thread.
I'm sorry that what I am doing doesn't make sense to you. It makes lots of sense to me.
What aren't you clear on between Bulba and I?
I targeted Bulba and got a negative, but not decisively-scum result.
I put this forward and Bulba defended his night action.
We're both wary of each other.
I'm not sure of Bulba because he could be a strong and informed town PR.
Bulba's not going hard on me because if I was scum, me softing my result in-thread makes no sense.
There's a few other things between us that are worth reading.

If you can just ask me a straightforward question, I'll answer it.
Please don't try to browbeat me like you were doing before.

[Varsoon]

Cerb, what are your reads as of now?
Curious.
I'm also on-board with your last two posts.
I think the game needs some other point of direction.
I wouldn't be okay with a ZZZX lynch.
We should lynch Saint.
VOTE: Saint

[Varsoon]

<3 ZZZX
I've been standing against your lynch for awhile, man.

[Varsoon]

Bulba's not getting lynched today, man.
Let's go ham on Saint.

[Varsoon]

If he flips scum, I'll be happy, sure, but sing your praises?
Dunno bout that.

[Varsoon]

It's kinda funny, because zzzx is easier to type out than zzthing
zztop
zzzzz

[Varsoon]

SEPHIROTH AND JENOVA, AMIRITE?

[Varsoon]

You never ever need to farm in FF13 unless you're doing wholly optional stuff.
The solution is ALWAYS to just use the paradigms to your advantage.

[Varsoon]

I had a short moment of panic when I thought of SHINRA in FFX-2.

[Varsoon]

@Mollie: The game caps out how much you can farm at different points. Typically, it's best to just have a couple of good Paradigm setups you can switch between and to play fairly conservatively. 13 can be very difficult at times, though, since bosses have a time limit to be defeated.

Anyway, as far as this game goes, feeling a lot better about mollie as town at this point.

[Varsoon]

I've got a pretty good idea, actually.
Please keep my secret safe.

[Varsoon]

I was also fuckin' vanilla in Saki, so....

[Varsoon]

But you can WIFOM that and say that Saint's only pulling that stunt in order to garner a townread.
I've done that plenty as scum--do something so illogical and brash under pressure that people go, "Well, THAT couldn't come from self-preserving scum!"
Like that one time I counterclaimed the cop, got him lynched, claimed miller gambiting, had my buddy counterclaim miller, lynched out my buddy, and then rode the towncred to victory.
Everyone was like, "That's dumb, Varsoon, but there's no scum motivation to out both yourself and an ally like that..." and yet I did it and got a win from it, soooooo....

Basically, any time any player does a thing and you think, "Man, I shouldn't lynch them because they did this thing" you should probably consider how intentional that effect is.

[Varsoon]

What's the alternative option, really? Push out a ZZZX lynch counterwagon that ends in (if Saint is scum) a likely town mislynch, which just folds over to a Saint lynch the following day?
Nah. Going for you is the real play to make here as scum-Saint, because it potentially eliminates that sort of fallout on a ZZZX mislynch.
This is assuming that Saint, of course, isn't playing a low-level scum game and is going for some WIFOM in his strat.
But, uh, no one likes when I talk LEVELS, so I'm gonna avoid that.
Basically, as scum, this makes sense as well, because wagoning/voting you (mastin) is a better means towards being townread.

[Varsoon]

I dunno.
I consider myself pretty mediocre at this game, but I still consider those sorts of strategies, especially as scum.
Any time I make a post, I review it and think, "What will people think when they read this post? What effect will it have? How can/will this play out?"
As scum, I try to play in a way that seems counter-intuitive to the site's scum-meta. People tend to townread that, while folks in the dead thread tend to shake fists and are all GRRR ITS SO OBVIOUS
I really wouldn't put it past any other player (outside of newbies, maybe?) to have similar considerations.
I guess I am the kind of person who doubts anyone. Everyone could be scum. Only innocents are bodies and all that.

[Varsoon]

Which, now that I think of it, is a good philosophy to play by as both alignments.
As town, you keep yourself from mentally 'confirming' players by constantly questioning their play rather than checking them off as 'sorted out' and as scum, you're able to keep all options on the table.
Hum-ho.
Maybe I'm not so bad at this game. Hm.

[Varsoon]

Of course, now I've got to ask myself, "Do I bring all this up just to continue to justify my push on Saint?"
which, I mean, that's just legitimately true, alignment regardless.
I suppose it's up to you guys to divine if that's scummy or not, but for me, it's a bit of rhetoric that allows me to be stalwart in my reads.
Applied WIFOM and all that. Woopdeshoop.

[Varsoon]

I'm rambling, sorry.
I also kinda wanted this ramble to spill to the next page.
I swear I won't make another post in this string, though.
This is Varsoon showing self-restraint.

[Varsoon]

That chess/checkers analogy never fails to make me cringe a little.
I'm not really seeing the ZZZX-scum thing, honestly. He's been lurky, but I don't know if that's equal to evasion. He's had awkward trajectory, but I'm not really seeing it as scum-motivated.
It just feels like a low hanging-fruit sort of lynch to me. Like a player that everyone feels they can lynch because it's an easy target.
Which, yeah, I know, lol occam's razor, etc.
I just don't want to be a part of that wagon at all. :/

[Varsoon]

Actually, I feel like I've been away from this game for so long that I really forget a lot of my reads. Honestly, I should write some more down. Anyway, here goes?
Aeris - Skeptical of this slot, I really am.
Bulbazak - I still don't know how to feel about my result on him and the fact we're still both alive.
Cerberus v666 - I like this guy. Doesn't make him town, but I am biased. I like his play a lot, I think.
pirate mollie - I really, really don't like Mollie's 'conftown' sort of status or how mollie played the previous day, but I can think of an actual reason for Town!Mollie to do that, although we should probably lynch her just to be safe? Idk. Cid softclaim?
hiplop, Jaqen Hghar, Kaboose - All completely slip my mind. I don't know. Ugggh. Aren't these replacement slots? Feels under-the-radar. Maybe scum among?
mastin2 - I actually think the logic here is sound and a lot of the posts ring as town mastin but I am also paranoid of this slot, so, y'know, that's what that is.
ProHawk - Oh I think Prohawk is town.
Psychlone - Uhhhhh nope. Can't really divine town or scum here, either. Reminds me of how weird Nacho was for me to read in Saki, so I don't trust myself to read this slot this time.
Saint - Probably, uh, scum? Actually, I'm blank here too. WHICH MEANS I WILL BE TURNING TO STONE SOON, GET IT GUYS, LIKE BLANK, LIKE THAT FF9 CHARACTER BLANK, HAHAA?
Seiko x Naomi - Bugs me a lot for the titus push and awkward stances. I actually do want a lynch here.
The Antagonist - Seriously, probably one of my actual scum reads as well and not just a paranoia or dumb-read.
TheIrishPope - I can't read Pope to save my life.
Varsoon - Oh hai, I work for the planet.

[Varsoon]

So I feel like a chode for both calling that Scarlet would be a ShinRa scum-sided character and defending that slot so much.
Don't overthink it?

[Varsoon]

@Mollie: Nah, I wanna lynch you 'cus your play really bothers me and if you're scum it actually makes a whole lot more sense than if you are town.

[Varsoon]

For one, it'd explain how hard you came after me the previous day.
two, it'd make a lot of sense if you are the role I believe you are.
three, Cid would be a really good fake claim, tbh, but eeeeeeeeh.
four, it'd REALLY explain why I am not dead yet.

[Varsoon]

I can't get a read on you at all, mayne.
D:

[Varsoon]

Give me a good reason why you, me, and Bulba are still alive?

[Varsoon]

fucking hell, that happens ANY TIME I POST A READS LIST
some butt walks in on their hindquarters and is all like
VARSOON DOESN'T HAVE DEFINITIVE READS
LOOOKS LIKE HE'S SOWING THE SEEDS
LOOOKS LIKE HE'S SETTING UP THE LYNCHES
LOOOKS LIKE HE'S JUST SHITTING AROUND

Man, get of my goddamn back. I was asked to give reads honestly and I gave them honestly. There's no other machinations or imaginary rubbish here, and your insistence that there is really bothers me. How do you reply to that? "Nuh uh!"
Yeah, my reads suck. Sorry.

[Varsoon]

And everyone in every game should always be a viable lynch target anyway. The second you start to give people passes is when scum slips through and snows you.
If anything, it's scum that wants to take certain lynches off the board, because they want to earn towncred and protect their homies.
So, if you think I'm last ShinRa for that post (despite everything else indicating otherwise), then come at me, bro.
I just hate giving genuine reads, putting my thoughts out on the table, only for players to, time and time again, give me a hard time over it.

[Varsoon]

That sort of comment doesn't open a dialogue, all it does is scumpaint and not even with good reason.
Never post that sort of thing again, especially as town.
It's garbage.

[Varsoon]

It isn't scum-painting to state what my reservations and genuine thoughts on your slot are, mollie.
Try again.

@Cerb: <3
Not scum, though.
I said it before, I'm no good at larges.

[Varsoon]

Didn't mean to blow up too much, it's just frustrating to deal with.

@Mollie: Got more reasons than just the one you mentioned, homie.

[Varsoon]

Yeah, I actually remember you crumbing bugenhagen early. Wasn't even that crumb. You mentioned something about Red XIII.
The story with Seto actually made me cry harder than anything else in FF7 on my most recent playthrough. My own father is very much like Seto and I grew up resenting him and came to learn he sacrificed and did a lot to protect and provide for his family and community. He's also had a heart condition since I was very young, so the whole poison seeping into the heart aspect of Seto, who still defended Cosmo Canyon despite that, was really fitting. Blah, I'm tearing up just writing about it.

Well, I assure you that I am town.
Out of those folks, I'd go
TOWN
Me
Cerberus
TiP
Jaqen
Kaboose
SCUM

I think. I hope I am not getting my games mixed up.

[Varsoon]

It's not a scum tell if I'm town, you fool!

[Varsoon]

Oh I guess I caught Jaqen, though.
VOTE: Jaqen

[Varsoon]

Guess I'll play sheep, too.
VOTE: The Antagonist

[Varsoon]

It's okay, if you sheeped mollie you'd think I was scum and, ergo, be wrong. :3

[Varsoon]

@Jaqen: I'm glad that I was able to emulate sincerity in Pathfinder well enough that you can't trust my sincerity here. :3

[Varsoon]

I could actually see Aeris as a scum-sided sensor. It'd be a neat role for scum to have.

[Varsoon]

D:
No combo would surprise you?
Am I just... that good?

:3

But yeah, I pretty much agree with what you're putting down here, mastin.

[Varsoon]

@Xtoxm: I'm afraid I don't completely understand. Run it by me again? Also, which group of players are you proposing we lynch from? Names, etc?

@Mastin2: Haha, sorry if I'm sounding vain there. I've just been thinking my play lately has been really lackluster. I need some oomph! Y'know? I want people to think I'm the guy with the Ooomph!
To be fair, I'm town-reading you this game, mastin. You might be scum, and if you are, that's cool, but there's other fish to fry! It's a multiball, so I really don't let paranoia control my reads too much. Like, so what if a town read of mine is actually scum? They're still scumhunting! So, it's all good.

@Jaqen: Wait, you're saying the last orange scum (ShinRa) is one of me and TiP? Well, then why aren't we lynching TiP?
I also think Mastin's a good player when really putting in effort, and I disagree--this game and a few recent ones have been really fun to watch mastin play. Of course, yeah, I'm as put-off by ego-stroking as anyone else, but I think it's not unexpected from players who do well.

[Varsoon]

Wait, people have students?
D:
I suppose I've heard of people teaching others how to play before.
I wouldn't wanna have a lot of students.
I think being some venerable sensei is beyond me.
Like, I could see having a protege, maybe? Like a karate kid of shitposting.

Anyway, we can talk more about this in post.
Right now, let's focus on what Xtoxm is saying about his role (I still don't understand exactly how the role functions) and what our lynch pools, realistically, are.
I'm also not a huge fan of excluding people from lynch pools, but 'ruling them out' in favor of a better candidate is okay. I just think it's easy to lose sight of the fact those originals are part of the lynch pool despite them being likely town, y'know?

@Mollie: You think Xtoxm/Aeris is meteor-aligned? I considered that possibility, as well as the idea that a scum sensor in multiball would actually be quite a useful and interesting approach to the role. I suppose the safest play would be to lynch Xtoxm to discern if they aren't lying about their role, then, if true, used the proposed lynch pools to proceed.
It's not like town's hurting that much here, right?

Anyways, maybe I'm dumb, but this strategy actually sounds like a foolproof way to keep us from getting wrecked by scum-sensor or scum-faking-sensor while ensuring that our Sensor results are truthful.
VOTE: Xtoxm

And if Xtoxm flips scum, then I have more ammo to go after mollie, ehehe~

[Varsoon]

This might be a bit problematic of me, but I actually thought the reason why Nacho and Aeris were removed together was that they had a spat in a Private Topic, such as a scum topic.
Of course, that's probably not realistic, but the way some people reacted made me think such a dispute might be the reason of replacement.
Still, if that was the case, I wonder if that connection would be too compromising, although I still think Bork would err on the side of keeping the game running (It is what I would do as a mod)
and honestly, I didn't want to push this angle, because if true, winning over this sort of thing would be pathetic.
So, file this one under, "Dumb Things Varsoon Says That Support His Bad Reads."

[Varsoon]

@Mastin2: What's stupid about it? I want to move forward on mod-confirmed information, not player-based speculation.
@Jaqen: I'd actually be fine with lynching TiP (If that's the ride-along you're suggesting), because I feel that if the sensor is town, scum's really got no other option BUT to kill them.
@Mollie: Xtoxm flipping town would likely indicate you're scum trying to corral a lynch on him. Xtoxm flipping scum wouldn't really change how I feel about you.

I wanna post more funny pictures. I feel like I've been slacking in recent months on the funny pictures.

[Varsoon]

You're not scum no matter what, dawg.
I've actually got a slight town-lean on you right now.
I just really, really don't like how you handled me the previous day.
If I was a vig, I'd vig ya.
But wasting a lynch on you when there's less CUHRAZY and more rationale lynches to make is just, I dunno, reasonable?
But mollie why are you trying to call me out on having blatant inconsistencies
It's like, you got into the game and went "OH SNAP, CRACKLE, AND POP, GUYS LOOK VARSOON IS VARSOON!"
If anything, my blatant inconsistency should be a town-tell, dawg.


@Mastin2: Yo, homie, you can chat about your personal stuff with Jaqen out of game or in post. Let's focus on the game here rather than get carried away~

[Varsoon]

What is with me and calling you dawg so much?
I should really get that checked.
Red XIII was the dog, dawg.

P-EDIT:
@Mastin2: Yeah, I know. :/
I'm just worried I'm gonna get wrecked, brought to endgame like always, wrecked in endgame, etc etc etc.
U-Pick mafia just ended and that happened and I sucked, so that's weighing on me. I need to be more critical and involved in games.


VOTE: The Irish Pope
Let's mosey.

[Varsoon]

Well, if TiP is the last Orange scum, then of course scum'll be glad to hop on the wagon.
Doy-oh-boy.

[Varsoon]

I'm assuming we've got two scum teams of three players.
If Cloud is Meteor, then it makes sense for two other slots, flavor wise.
With Scarlet and Palmer as flipped ShinRa, there could be at least another slot, flavor wise.
So it's not really an out-of-this-world idea.

[Varsoon]

Told ya mollie was scum.
Good game all.

[Varsoon]

I like you, Pie. We should play together sometime. Y'know. As a hydra-thing.
Also, I agree. The only way to win multiball is not to play.
I hope the site meta shifts away from multiball in large games.
Regardless, I had fun~

[Varsoon]

Multiball is so lame, though.
Do well as town? You're almost guaranteed to get killed.
Have a PR as town? Better try real hard to never get noticed because lol 2 kills a night.
Are you scum? Better not seem worth killing, since there's another team. You can't try to curry town favor as scum because the other team will just shoot you if you seem too town and are leading them in the right direction.

Most of the multiball games I have seen have strong town PRs to make up for the fact there are two scum teams, leading to one of two scenarios;
Town gets double-killed most nights, loses their strong PRs fast, and then ends up losing because just having a lynch a day does not make up for the mechanical offense of two kills.
One scum team gets trounced early on, leading to a mechanically strong town to face down an often slimmed-up scum team that has a bad chance at winning.
Neither of those scenarios are interesting to me.
Multiball winning strategy is to be a non-presence, so no one wants to kill you, as any faction.

Being on either losing side feels awful in Multiball, because it is so far out of your hands. You're either crushed under the full power of the double-mafia teams or you're vastly outnumbered by town PRs that are likely much stronger than you.
It is total balls. That's why they call it 'multiball'.

That said, this game actually was cool and played out well, although town shot itself in the foot repeatedly with faked rubbish until there was no viable endgame for them.

[Varsoon]

I'm probably gonna run FF7 dirge of cerberus soon

It will be SINGLE SCUM (no multiball, no sk)

I'll love you forever for it, Bork.
/pre-in if possible?

I actually like Dirge of Cerberus. I found the Hojo and Vincent backstory to be really interesting and a lot of the stages were very cool.
The gameplay was passable and some of the designs were a little too anime for the already kinda-silly setting, but I thought Weiss was a neat guy.
Random Gackt ending had me puzzled for years.

[Varsoon]

Yo, Mollie.
I think you played this really well.
I had my suspicions of you, but I don't think I could have beaten you if we ever went 1 on 1.

[Varsoon]

I think the level design (mechanically) was pretty poor and I was upset that you couldn't transform into more creatures.
Despite that, the atmosphere and areas were interesting to me. Like, sure, it was corridors without much going on, but I remember liking rifling through the labs, running around in canyons, and infiltrating ShinRa places. I still get goosebumps thinking about the opening cutscene that has the thunderstorm and Hojo in it.

[Varsoon]

I think the whole concept of blacklisting a player is a backwards approach to the sort of community this site should be fostering.
We already have a system to weed out trolls, inactive players, and miscreants. Our modding community is one of the best in Online Mafia.
We already have a system set in place to assure players have adequate experience to play games.
If you have an issue with a player's style, approach to the game, or something along those lines, you can talk to them about it. You can work on overcoming your weaknesses together. Blacklisting a player will not change the issue you have with them. Communication and fellowship has a much deeper chance at tying our community together, inspiring players to up their game, and curbing unlikable behavior.
I can understand blacklisting a player if they make you, as a human being, personally uncomfortable for reasons that do not break the rules. If it goes beyond simple attitude into a recurring behavior that makes playing the game impossible for you, that is understandable.

What I can not get behind are elitists who use a blacklist as a means of 'punishing' or 'exiling' other players. If a player does poorly, you should want to play with them again to help them improve--it is this kind of player who may surprise you the most. If a player is obnoxious or foul-tempered, you should want to lead by example, rather than crossing your arms and being exclusive over it.

I will never blacklist another player. Diverse approaches to the game are what makes the game fun, and limiting the player pool with blacklists only drives a wedge into the spirit of the community itself.

Advice and support is almost always more worthwhile than blacklisting.

[Varsoon]

Man, Jaqen and Cerb should get some avatars going.

[Varsoon]

My dinner was reheated pizza. ;_;

Thanks for the setup insight, Sajin. I think this was pretty well designed even with my misgivings about multiball.

[Varsoon]

I agree about the optimal play being lurking. I think a multiball setup could be pulled off without that issue, but it'd require some heavy mechanical changes from what's the norm.
I appreciate the efforts to mitigate the swing.

[Varsoon]

We should also team up again sometime, Mastin. For great justice.

[Varsoon]

Would you like some pepper to go with that salt?

[Varsoon]

Read that post.
Over those five years, have you ever tried to reach out to him or help him improve his play at all? Or have you just been insisting he is the worst player on site?
If it's just being hung up about what you consider to be low quality of play, the way you're going about it here doesn't help him grow at all.
It's clear that you've identified what you think makes him a poor player. You should take it upon yourself to help him become a better player. Challenge him. Inspire him. Don't be a jerk. Be awesome instead.

The way it looks to me, you've got him figured out. If that's the case, you could easily team up with him any time he is town or snuff him out any time he is scum. As a scum player, you could manipulate him to your own advantage to win. Having that sort of facility with another player doesn't make them 'bad', either. What you should be more focused on is making sure he learns from these experiences. If you just give him a hard time, then he may never learn, and then you're just as much to blame for his continued standard of play.

[Varsoon]

@Feysal: I don't think you're a bad guy for having the reaction you have. It's a normal reaction to have--this is the internet. If you don't like something, you can voice that and move past it. That said, I wouldn't call teaching another player a lost cause. It's all about communication. As of now, he may think, "Oh, these other people don't like my approach" but might not see exactly what is wrong with it or what's keeping him from winning games. Shutting him out and crossing arms over the whole thing seems contrary to making it better, and also diminishes the community we should all be striving for. If one method of teaching doesn't stick, try another approach. It's clear that insisting on the negative qualities of his play and his inability to learn hasn't been an effective model. I think you understand what's 'wrong' with his play in a very comprehensive way and instead of channeling that into a blacklisting or badmouthing (which just seems to push him to continue to play that way, as if being contrarian) isn't helping for a variety of reasons. I think you're a smart player and that you could challenge him in different ways and bring him to new heights, is all. It'd be a shame if you just gave up on that.

<3

[Varsoon]

I think you're right, Mollie.
If an effort is made and things don't work out, it isn't reason to give up. People should challenge themselves. I see helping others improve as just another 'challenge' of the game of mafia.

I feel that spending energy elsewhere is important if both parties aren't open to communication. That energy shouldn't go to just giving a player a hard time, though. If you're going to give a player criticism, it should be done in efforts to improve their game and tighten the community.

I know this can be hard, though. Games are high-stress, several-month investments. It can suck when a game goes south for your team due to one player's incompetence. I think it's for that reason that we all have to try to be less bitter/elitist/exclusive, as that kind of response isn't what's going to lead to better games. I think channeling that sort of 'I cannot stand you, you suck, we lost because of you' feeling towards appropriate critique is very important.