Trouble in The Cougar's Den (Game over!)

[HerryPanther]

pos 1 Jakiro, dibs on safe lane

VOTE: BotLane

[HerryPanther]

Hey everyone! Some early thoughts:

- I thought it was quite clear that Spiffeh wasn't being serious with his early vote on BotLane and with the "scum chat" poke. That being said, RR(Drixx)'s push was NOT a scummy overreaction, but something Drixx just does D1 to reaction test others. Believe me. It might look like an overreaction, but I don't think it's scum-indicative and I'm not willing to go there.
- I have an early townread on Cephrir; seems like he's diving into discussions, pushing the conversation forward, and that's always townie in my eyes.
- For similar reasons, I have an initial townlean on Spiffeh.
- I didn't like TWIE's entry in 99 continuing the RVS (although I appreciate dota humor...), and it looks like he's the confrontational type, so I will be keeping an eye on him.

If anyone has specific questions for me about the first 8 pages, fire away. Otherwise, I think the BPC wagon is something I can get on board with. I agree with the heart of Pere's 190 -- I thought BPC's 130 felt scummy, his main point was ambiguous and it looks like he's trying to draw associative tells without a whole lot to go on. A whole lot of noise, not a lot of substance.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: BiPolarChemist

-Herr

[HerryPanther]

@dave not liking Aero’s posts at the moment. For some reason, it makes me think of the game we played where he was Jester.

I’m not understanding the wagon on Bip.

He posted 2 posts so far so I’m not getting a strong read on him either. Bip, what’s your understanding of the wagon on you?

Not seeing your point about a difference between “wagon and WAGON.” A wagon is a wagon.

Not feeling the sugar on the Reas wagon.
Not liking Monk either.

Bip's ISO doesn't check out for me.

Oh haha sorry I literally forgot this exists. I'll be around soonishhh.

No.
VOTE: Bip

Wait, what's this about (see bolded)? Did you compose this post while catching up or something? Or did you just forget what you had said earlier in your own post?

As an aside, I'm hoping all of the fluffy shit-posts sort themselves out in time. Not to be a killjoy, but it feels like they're starting to balloon the thread a bit and making people more difficult to read. Of course, that could also be because I've never played with like 90% of you before and am not familiar with your playstyles.

-herr

[HerryPanther]

Lurker checking since it's quick. Aeronaut seems really disengaged compared to other games. I have not paid attention to his posting frequency vs. alignment nor have I checked other site activity, so don't have an immediate read. BipolarChemist has only posted twice. Don't think I've played with him before, no read. Anyone have an opinion on these two?

I don't really see the reason for a "lurker check" that omits like half of the people with fewer than 10 posts (including this slot). Especially including BipolarChemist, who currently has a wagon on him and it's clear that people have issues with things other than his activity. It seems like dave is trying to feel out the waters here to see if there are other excuses to vote BPC.

Not a fan of 241 or 242. They feel like filler posts to me (and thus I find myself agreeing with what Cephrir has said).

Lurker checking since it's quick. Aeronaut seems really disengaged compared to other games. I have not paid attention to his posting frequency vs. alignment nor have I checked other site activity, so don't have an immediate read. BipolarChemist has only posted twice. Don't think I've played with him before, no read. Anyone have an opinion on these two?

Oh boy, pointless filler questions hoping to start a lurker wagon!

VOTE: davesaz

So you are pro-lurking then?

What kind of question is this? What possible alignment-indicative answer do you hope to get, or are you just asking questions to ask questions?

Early scumleans on both dave and monkeyman for these above reasons.

-herr

[HerryPanther]

@herr vote him and I'll tell you why

Vote whom? I'm already voting bipolarchemist. I want to see his answer to the criticism about his post 130.

-herr

[HerryPanther]

@Performer: So you're not going to answer my question about your 310, where you say you "don't understand the wagon on bip" and then vote him shortly later in the same post?

[HerryPanther]

@ Teridax: Why did you unvote Botlane?

-herr

[HerryPanther]

Prodge -- will spend some time tomorrow rereading and responding, trying to sort the people who replaced in, etc

-herr

[HerryPanther]

Didn't see the day had started already, and I've been gone all weekend. Will catch up tomorrow.

-herr

[HerryPanther]

Holy smokes, I really have to apologize for my inactivity. Part of me is wondering how I let Panther convince me to join a Large game (but I guess that's neither here nor there). I was out of town on Saturday, and yesterday I didn't have time at all to read or post. I've read the D2 events once (I plan on rereading them again soon), and I want to lay some of my thoughts quickly out in the open.

There's been a lot of buzz about RR over the past few days, but having recently played a game with Drixx, I have yet to really see anything that is strongly scum-indicative here. It seems that a lot of the issues people have with RR are playstyle-related, so unless someone can open my eyes to something objectively scummy, I'm afraid you won't have my support on that wagon. It's burned me before lol.

I'm feeling the Vedith wagon though. I dislike the way he got onto the Performer wagon in 562; the post felt a bit forced to me, like he's wrestling with the decision to bus his partner. Vedith's 606 is an odd question to ask someone you believe to be scum in twilight, and it's oddly specific. His vote on Teridax in 676 makes little sense, is never substantiated, and it seems like he's been ducking lately to avoid attention. And his back and forth with LQ on page 37 etc looks like the Vedith!scum I knew from my previous game.

On a quick reread, I also don't really like MonkeyMan. I mean, I know I've been a lurkaderp, but so has MM. He's been even less of a factor in this game than I have, yet he complains about lurking/people not helping town (303, 581) while doing zero scumhunting himself. Asking people to "summarize for him" what has happened so far (549) bothers me in light of his other posts condemning behavior that detracts from the town wincon. But he hasn't really been all that active, so I don't feel like pushing on him right now will be very fruitful.

Getting this Vedith wagon back on track will, though.

VOTE: Vedith

[HerryPanther]

ebwop: -herr

[HerryPanther]

SOLD!

VOTE: Vedith

I didn't realize my argument was that compelling. Or maybe you didn't feel comfortable on the RR wagon anymore?

[HerryPanther]

welp..got some reading to do. good news is I have some flips on my first read through. its like replacing in...so I should be able to deliver scum

thanks for putting the team on your back herr.

hi ved. hi tth. hi pk.

sorry to fluff my way in.

-Panther

[HerryPanther]

Hi Panth!

Your partner voted me by accident, you should unvote!

I'll know your alignment soon enough.

no that's not a soft, you nerds

-Panth

[HerryPanther]

4 page gut read says RR is scummy. though my hyrda partner apparently thinks this is a play style issue. don't like the questioning of ika re: 3rd party stuff.
ime, only scum are interested in rooting out 3p early game. when I have the time to read the whole thread, I'll actually post like myself. can't get into it right now
-Panth

[HerryPanther]

I'll know your alignment soon enough.

no that's not a soft, you nerds

-Panth

Why did you feel the need to clarify that?

so scums don't figure out I'm cop and NK me. like duh, obviously.

Mastin does long-winded WIFOMy self-reflecting posts every opportunity she gets, it means nothing

ew

MM can be in my tentative Scum reads right now.

ewwwwww

Care to elaborate on these "eww's"?
I fail to see the 'grossness' especially in LQ's post, which I interpret you find more scummy because of your added w's

[HerryPanther]

didn't read MattP's 1096 first...but ya... TWIE, you have multiple people wondering, apparently.

[HerryPanther]

Prodge for a day or two. Had something come up IRL, but I will catch up shortly.

-herr

[HerryPanther]

RR post 2087 SHOULD be enough to not lynch today.

I agree with this. Still not sure what all the fuss is about with RR, but the fact that they are so invested in the game (wish I could claim the same for myself, sorry guys...) looks great for us if they're indeed town bulletproof.

I don't recall ever liking MM. I believe I pointed out in my earlier posts the obvious contradictions of how he treats the game vs how he says people should play the game, and his 2092 "not like thete has been a lot of stuff going on" supports that idea.

If I missed questions directed at me/us, feel free to point them out. I promise I'll be more active from here on out.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: MonkeyMan576

-herr

[HerryPanther]

Who is herrcombs?

FUCK

-herr

[HerryPanther]

One shot means he can only investigate once, or what?

[HerryPanther]

hey..um...sorry I've continued to be worthless this game.

I'm assuming we are about to see MM flip scum.

I've PoE'd some townies. aorn, I want to kill dave.

-Panth

[HerryPanther]

panther hasnt been playing, Dave is a good vig, and frankly so is hairytiger

"Pather hasn't been playing" seems to mean that you agree with Spiffeh that you're against killing Dave, but you also say Dave is a good vig shot. Which one am I misunderstanding?

@Spiffeh - you have a strong town read on dave? can you tell me why?

[HerryPanther]

hi tths open friend

do u have any scumreads besides dave?

TWIE

I like, and couldn't give exact reasons for each, but they have to do with reading Performer and choice excerpts of the game
BotLane
Cephir
Heartless
LQ
MattP
PeregrineV

[HerryPanther]

@Reas As for Ceph & Heart - the two of them are like peas in a pod this game.
dave

I'm slight town leaning on because of the interaction with Heart and my interaction with him.

You

I'm slight town leaning on because you look like you're trying to figure out things with your posts.

Bot is null and it'd be interesting to hear how he answers my query.

f there's a dead thread, I'll see you guys there
doesn't look like anyone cares about my reads but here are a few townreads of mine:

Ved because of his questioning , particularly on pg 9 of d1
dave

I'm slight town leaning on because of the interaction with Heart and my interaction with him.

Reasonably Rational,

I'm slight town leaning on because he looks like he's trying to figure out things with your posts.

Disagree heavily with him on his stance on Fire's gut-read approach
Fire (replaced Bip) = town entrance


thanks for the fun game

for self-ISO reference. lol at Performer copy pasting an earlier reads list after being hammered...doesn't even bother to change pronouns.
by rule of 3 I think there is always at least 1 scum between dave/rr/vedith

[HerryPanther]

Fooooooooooooolish mortalsssssssssss. You honestly think you sssssssstand a chance aga--

Wait, what?!? Did you just say...

...

No! This cannot be!
...Relish this victory whiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiile it lastssssssssssss, huuuuuuuuuuuuuuumans. While I may have suuuuuuffered a...

temporary

...setback rendering it mutually beneficial for us to work together, I assure you, my victory is secure.

*cough*

(How could Teridax NOT draw scum? *hmph*)

also, I don't think this was commented on, but I can't get over this post.
feel like it was a soft at a role that can be converted to the scum team. if it ever comes to light that there are conversion mechanics in this game, I'm looking at this slot.

[HerryPanther]

"Pather hasn't been playing" seems to mean that you agree with Spiffeh that you're against killing Dave, but you also say Dave is a good vig shot. Which one am I misunderstanding?

Why does it have to mean that? Are my thought processes tied to Spif?

As a largely nonexistent and overlooked entity in this game, a bullet in between the eyes would solve you. Same for Dave.

Stop being null and abscent plz.

Why do you answer my question with a question about said question?

What were you trying to accomplish when you said "Panther hasn't been playing?"

It's also weird that you reiterate that I'm a good vig shot. You already said that. I didn't comment on it.

I'm beginning my attempt at not being absent and null. Hope it doesn't scare you.
-Panth

[HerryPanther]

@pisskop resorting to mockery and ignoring valid questions. looks like your scum game alright

[HerryPanther]

You and mastin should get together and discuss what about my playstyle in general is actually super scumzors instead of, you know, a playstyle.

or, y'know, if you're town you could answer questions instead of ignoring them completely and saying "lolz its my playstyle"

[HerryPanther]

hey..um...sorry I've continued to be worthless this game.

I'm assuming we are about to see MM flip scum.

I've PoE'd some townies. aorn, I want to kill dave.

-Panth

That is an unfortunate opinion.

panther hasnt been playing, Dave is a good vig, and frankly so is hairytiger

panther hasnt been playing, Dave is a good vig, and frankly so is hairytiger

"Pather hasn't been playing" seems to mean that you agree with Spiffeh that you're against killing Dave, but you also say Dave is a good vig shot. Which one am I misunderstanding?

Here's how it went:
I said I think dave is scum.
Spiffeh says that's an unfortunate opinion.
pisskop says "Panther hasn't been playing. Dave is a good vig shot. so is Pantherhyrda."

my question is what was your thought process that made you say "Panther hasn't been playing" ?

to me, it looks like an implicit agreement with Spiffeh that my opinion on scum!dave is a poor opinion.
but you say dave is a good vig shot, which means you think he could very well be scum.
so naturally, you saying "Panther hasn't been playing" couldn't mean that you agree with Spiffeh. so what was the point saying it?

[HerryPanther]

My thought process that led me to state the obvious fact that the slot is largely dead space thus far is the fact that they havent been a presence in the game in any significant way.

Im again, not sure why anything I say has anything to do with spiffeh, another player who I feel isnt active enough.

I don't understand it because I don't feel the need to say things that are "obvious fact" such as the activity level of a player. So in my rational mind, I thought it was related to Spiffeh's thought.
Otherwise, you were just popping in to comment on less active players and say they are a good vig shot. Keep up that great solving work you're doing. thumbsup

[HerryPanther]

I am glad my comment was the cause of such a controversy!

why do you townread dave?

[HerryPanther]

Hi Panther! I hope we can be town friends this game. :3

Do you have a read on Firebringer?

leantown purely on performer spew

as much as I owe you a noose...I hope so too.

[HerryPanther]

Wait Herry are you saying you are scumreading Heartless?

no.
-panther

[HerryPanther]

Good

good talk!

[HerryPanther]

How did BotLane get their place on your town list?

Performer interactions. seemed to not be s/s
albeit, it's a weaker one of my Performer-spew townreads

-Panther

[HerryPanther]

Scum
MattP and Reasonably Rational

Neutral
Cephirir
Heartless

Vedith
BotLane

HerryPanther
kthxbyte
Terridax
TheWayItEnds

Town
Monkeyman576
davesaz
Firebringer
LicketyQickety
PeregrineV
pisskop
Spiffeh

so something I've seen (lazy) scum do when they are fabricating read lists is copypaste the living players list (which is in alphabetical order) and then make some adjustments. They also tend to love to put their scumbuddies in the null pile. So just looking at this list, that makes the placement of Vedith and Botlane questionable, as they are names that have been shifted out of alpha order.

I have spew-based townreads on:
Firebringer
Heartless
LQ
MattP
pisskop

I think this is mostly the same as what I posted before, but I previously had BotLane/Ank as a weaker townspew. Gonna retract that. Also don't think I put pisskop in before, but I'm leaning town on him after rereading Perf/MM combined ISO again.

Which makes my POE pool:
BotLane/Ank
Cephrir
davesaz
kthx
RR
spiffeh
TWIE
Vedith

haven't really synced with herr in a while, but he kept telling me he thinks RR is town. I like ceph from what I've seen of him. And think I like kthx and spiffeh but I should probably reread them.

So I'm currently looking at a WTL list of:
BotLane/Ank
davesaz
TWIE
Vedith

and am now going to look harder at those slots. if you think any of those 4 should not be on the table, please tell me why. (sorry for walling. needed to do this for myself)
-Panth

[HerryPanther]

Went and read Peregrine to see if he had a hit on a watch. Doesn't appear he did. But I did note that he spent nearly the entirety of d2 pushing an RR lynch. I found him scummy d1, but didn't pursue due to the opinion of my other head.
Agree that this is surely not crumb that town!BP leaves:

[snip]
We're not in the least bit worried about being vigged. In fact ... a vig shooting us would accomplish absolutely nothing but wasting a vig shot. [snip]
With Love and Affection,
Drixx

If you're town!BP you'd want to crumb something investigative and/or just plays balls out obvtownie. This may have already been covered, but
@Drixx - what was your thought behind even crumbing BP in the first place?
-Panther

[HerryPanther]

Well, I'm rather pleased that I had a hand in the lynches of two scum, but I'm well aware that I haven't been incredibly active throughout the game and I plan on remedying that starting tomorrow.

97 page reread. Woo. Hoping to iron down some reads and get back in sync with my hydra partner and the rest of the game.

-Herr

-_-

[HerryPanther]

Well to be fair, there are several slots that I've given the benefit of the doubt this whole time, and I need this reread to get a more informed impression, now that we have several flips to go off of.

This is my first large game, and the enormous volume of posts has made me rather apathetic to the game, but I owe it to everyone to redouble my efforts and contribute more content on a regular basis. I'm actually a somewhat intelligent person, believe it or not, and I like to think I can yet contribute in some meaningful way to the game.

-herr

[HerryPanther]

Damnit we got prodded again. Ok, so I started that reread I mentioned, got 20 pages in, and jotted down some notes in notepad. I was going to continue it but my girlfriend and I celebrated our 2-year anniversary yesterday and I've got company from out of town tomorrow, so I didn't get a chance to get much further. I am still confused about a couple slots and I don't feel like I can start being super active in good faith until my whole reread is completed.

Here's what I came up with so far though (now that we know Performer and MM flipped scum):

nobodyspecial's posts from the first few pages bother me. RR's early posts (the Drixx head) look like the town-Drixx I know from an earlier game. Ceph's early push on RR looks like someone who is unfamiliar with Drixx's playstyle, and it looks very TvT to me.

Aeronaut's 106 looks town to me (in his early push on MM), so that supports MattP being town.

BotLane's 126 seems to be defending MM.

Vedith's vote on MM in 216 looks pretty good.

Dave's 326 looked pretty awful to me, with both scumflips in mind. So did his 350. Dave scumreads the most popular wagons and says "not enough content for a true read" for MM.

Ceph is pretty clearly town to me at this point. BotLane was an important voice in the Performer lynch (so he gets townpoints for that), and his 432 is good if dave ends up flipping scum.

Drixx's 534 pinged me upon reread "your (FB's) slot was already pretty bad", when earlier RR had commented that BPC was not really worthy of a wagon.

I haven't gotten much farther than this yet, but I can say that based on those first 20 pages, I still don't like dave. A LOT has happened since then, so I'll do my best over the next few days to complete my reread and post more of my thoughts.

[HerryPanther]

ebwop: this was herr speaking