Trouble in The Cougar's Den (Game over!)

[PeregrineV]

first

VOTE: PeregrineV

Remember to post in hydra, Ankamius. The votes both by and for you will count, but from here on out, votes out of hydra will be ignored and votes for only one person in the hydra will be treated as votes on non-participants.

[PeregrineV]

Vote: Maxous

It's been a while... new avatar?

[PeregrineV]

HI GUYS

-C

VOTE: BipolarChemist because he deserves it but I've already read the thread and am pretty sure I'll be voting elsewhere momentarily!

Hey Ceph!

Were you responsible for StrangerCoug's death, or the member of a team responsible for StrangerCoug's death?

[PeregrineV]

Hey ceph. DO you think we have a neutral in the game?

I have no idea, and I don't really care right now.

I take it you don't think Ika was soft claiming then?

Why would YOU think Ika was soft claiming?

[PeregrineV]

Good to know someone else is seeing the same shit I am.

PereV: Are you scum this game?

-Ank

Not this game.

[PeregrineV]

I bet Ank was chatting in his scum chat outside his hydra and that's how he slipped. Wagon pls

VOTE: BotLane

I went and looked at the opening post just to be sure my memory wasn't faulty. The mod hasn't specified whether the scum do or do not have day chat. Your statement has an implicit assumption that they do. Care to explain that?

Love,
Drixx

VOTE: Reasonably Rational

That is not a town post.

my immediate thought is that it seems like some throwing under the bus. haven't really read into their other posts yet, but from skimming, I've found long in the past (like 2 years i think?) that Drixx tends to talk himself in circles no matter the alignment and it seems like that trend is continuing. I'd probs vote them but IDK where the vote count is at right now

I'm translating this as
"My immediate though it that it seems like scum BotLane is throwing ReasonablyRational under the bus, but from skimming Reasonably Rational's posts, his style is not alignment indicative. I would probably vote ReasonablyRationale, except it may be the hammer vote, I don't want to be responsible for his lynch."

I'm I reading it wrong?

Vote: BiPolarChemist

[PeregrineV]

Weekend prod received. Will catch up today.

[PeregrineV]

Why would YOU think Ika was soft claiming?

I'm not looking to answer RR. However, 32, 39, 50 and 75 pin point towards Ika soft claiming Survivor.

When I re-read ReasonRat's posts again, I noticed the recurring topic, and why he was talking about it.

Now, I have to think about
a) why would town ika talk about this? (I don't think he would).
b) why would survivor ika talk about this? (I don't see why he should, it would decrease his odds of survival)
c) why would scum ika talk about this? (To set up a fake claim further down the road)

But, right now, I need to catch up and bigger fish to fry.

[PeregrineV]

Cephrir is really hard to read in iso. Roughly half (I did not actually count) of the posts are one-liners which give no clue as to context. At least half of that is not game related. Use of one-liners could be just playstyle as some people like to treat it like a conversation. However it does make me want to go back and see what is being discussed then to see if this could be a distraction tactic.

Pedit: I see TTH's point, though I will say that IMO there is a difference between wagon and WAGON.

When you read a post, and then respond to it, is it easier to scroll to the bottom of the page to the quick reply box, and type it in, or easier to hit the "quote" button and then type the answer?

[PeregrineV]

So you don't have a read on RR but can scumread BPC after a couple of posts strongly enough to push a wagon? Interesting...

I reread

(today)

the early RR material and in addition to the well thought out case on the slot, it was very similar to the early part of a Drixx scum game I was town in.
VOTE: Reasonably Rational

What is your read on BiPolar?

[PeregrineV]

bpc is town because of performer's bizarre actions towards him, and incidentally he never even delivered the reasons he promised herry

I'll argue that he was in the perfect bussing position, thereby not conferring town credit on BiPolar.

[PeregrineV]

So you don't have a read on RR but can scumread BPC after a couple of posts strongly enough to push a wagon? Interesting...

I reread

(today)

the early RR material and in addition to the well thought out case on the slot, it was very similar to the early part of a Drixx scum game I was town in.
VOTE: Reasonably Rational

What is your read on BiPolar?

BpC - slightly more scum than town, but I'd hate to focus on a lurker and get close to no associatives from it

He is scummy first, lurking second, and more than likely will get active as the wagon on him grows, thereby providing the associatives.

[PeregrineV]

since prior to Performers terrible and nonsensical post there was little said by anyone that seemed like it might be alignment indicative

Meaning Perfomers "terrible and nonsensical post" WAS alignment indicative.

What kind of read do you have on Performer?

[PeregrineV]

Are those questions to me?

Not particularly, no. Just the reason I dropped that line of questioning.

[PeregrineV]

a) why would town ika talk about this? (I don't think he would).
b) why would survivor ika talk about this? (I don't see why he should, it would decrease his odds of survival)
c) why would scum ika talk about this? (To set up a fake claim further down the road)

A) Why would I not as town?
B) i wouldnt i would outright claim and coast on it
C) Thats...... not a half bad idea i should o that next large im scum in

A) Would not be relevant to you
B) Considering survivor could cause a town loss earlier than a game with no survivor, we are safer lynching a role like that unless it can provide more benefit to the town vs. the risk of an early loss. Since that is subjective, decreasing your odds of survival as a survivor does not seem liek smart play.
C) It could be this game, since evidence suggests there is not much incentive to wonder/care/ask otherwise.

[PeregrineV]

because out of the 17 other people in the game, there might be someone else townreading that entrance and i would like to hear why.

I would call that entrance "more town than scum".

[PeregrineV]

Got cut off yesterday, but Firebringer is acceptable Bipolar replacement right now.

Vote: Perfomer

[PeregrineV]

Why didnt you claim such an unusual/game deciphering role earlier, performer?

That role is unusual and uncommon
That role is borderline useless and possibly a town negative
That role is a huge chunk of information

okay. Lets try this again, or Ill vote you; not having read 1 page the whole way down.

Why didnt you claim it?
Did you crumb it?
What do you think the presence of your role suggests about the setup?

strongman punches through bp.

Are you seriously grilling the dead guy about his claim?

Will spend tomorrow lynching ika for what was possibly the shittiest hammer in all of mafiadom.

[PeregrineV]

Prod received. Sorry, was OOO Monday. Will catch up today.

[PeregrineV]

OK, skimmed/caught up.

I think ReasonaleRational is scum.

I think Teridax/Mastin is scum.

Not sure who else is scum with them.

Vote: ReasoablyRational

[PeregrineV]

What's scummy about wanting as much info as possible? MattP clearly has information he is not divulging.

Quote the post, I must have missed it.

[PeregrineV]

And I don't care about divulging you in all my reads just so you can get a better read of me. I'm clearly not going to be wagoned today so I have no reason to go down a rabbit hole with you when I want to be focusing on RR.

This.

Players can give reasons or not for their reads. Unless you have a strong read on Matt, then his reads (and lack of reasons, iyo) should rank right near the bottom of "things MonkeyMan cares about".

If you think MattP (who strongly leans town to me) needs to be sorted out BEFORE all the other players and so his reads MUST BE EXPLAINED on day2, then you'd really have to explain why you feel that way.

[PeregrineV]

OK, skimmed/caught up.

I think ReasonaleRational is scum.

I think Teridax/Mastin is scum.

Not sure who else is scum with them.

Vote: ReasoablyRational

Please tell me you have some reasons to go with your reads.

I have RR as Null and I have mastin as Town.

Sure.

ReasonRational

1. First vote is on Firebringer for Firebringer saying his reads are gut (534). This takes place about 75% of the way through day1.
2. Upon Perfomers lynching, a post that sounds like scum trying to cover both bases. Blue part says "This is town, guys, look how fast that wagon went." while simultaneously trying to earn scumhunting towncred with the red statement "Why the ika hate when Performer could flip scum?" which he did.

I'm kind of morbidly curious about this flip. I don't think I've seen a wagon with less resistance ever ... not even a day one wagon. That inactivity and, to use the parlance, "Dat claim tho", are certainly bad but it's like someone greased him up and sent him down the chute or something. No resistance whatsoever. I've noticed that such things are usually bad.

@PV - Before you see the flip: You really going to push ika if performer is scum?

3. Reaction to four votes on Teridax day2.

Why on earth is there a fast wagon building on Teridax?

Day started at about 10am Saturday. This post was made at about 1:30pm and 2 pages later. In no way is that a "fast wagon" unless you really care about a wagon building on confirmed town or a scumbuddy. Since RR did not indicate Teridax was ever town, then is has to be for the other reason. And since when is 2 pages a "fast wagon"?

Teridax

1. Lurky-scummy yesterday.
2. ReasonRatioanal reaction to the 4 votes on him.
3. His vote on his counterwagon when both are hovering around 4-5 votes (819) instead of actually looking for scum.

And these are mostly my reasons. I think there were other reasons that players were voting both of them. So plus those reasons.

[PeregrineV]

And I don't care about divulging you in all my reads just so you can get a better read of me. I'm clearly not going to be wagoned today so I have no reason to go down a rabbit hole with you when I want to be focusing on RR.

This.

Players can give reasons or not for their reads. Unless you have a strong read on Matt, then his reads (and lack of reasons, iyo) should rank right near the bottom of "things MonkeyMan cares about".

If you think MattP (who strongly leans town to me) needs to be sorted out BEFORE all the other players and so his reads MUST BE EXPLAINED on day2, then you'd really have to explain why you feel that way.

I know MattP to be a strong player, so I am suspicious when he says something like he doesn't want to give his reads, or that "I'm not going to be wagoned today." Arrogance does not help the town, so at this point I have a scum read on him.

Your reading him as scum for being arrogant?

A strong town player or strong scum player?

[PeregrineV]

awesome this is a newbie game now

srsly whats up w the hard town read on herry? all it takes to win your undying loyalty is a well placed wk?

pshhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

Herry is 3rd string at this point. Take out the starters first.

[PeregrineV]

Why on earth is there a fast wagon building on Teridax?

To echo PV, this was incredibly bizarre.

I pushed RR about this at daystart and I didn't like his answers.

I don't find a single thing wrong with that question RR asked there. In fact, I think its a pretty Towny thing to ask.

In what way was it a "fast wagon"? Why should RR be concerned about 4 votes on a (to him) null player?

[PeregrineV]

To everyone trying to form a counterwagon to RR...

what's up with that?

[PeregrineV]

To everyone trying to form a counterwagon to RR...

what's up with that?

you're basing a case on associatives w/ unflipped players

what's up with that?

To recap: (1223)
1. Bad first vote
2. Associative with flipped scum
3. Fear of "rapidly building wagon" on a player on which he has no read.

If you want to argue he is town , do so.

If you want to argue there is scummier players, do so.

Otherwise, don't see the point of relieving pressure on RR by unvoting.

[PeregrineV]

why the fuck is everyone drinking the koolaid on panther?

idgi

everyone?

You mean 2 people? Lickety & Mastin?

[PeregrineV]

I have RR as Null and I have mastin as Town.

Have to ask what made you change me from null to town, though.

1. Lurky-scummy yesterday.

For every scumgame you bring up where I lurk, I will bring up TWENTY towngames where I also lurked.
Dead serious.

Not a scumtell.
And nothing ticks me off more than that.
If I'm not around, I'm

not bloody around

, and it means absolutely NOTHING to my alignment. Not a towntell, sure, yeah, but CERTAINLY not a scumtell.

1. Self-meta. Which I value as highly as horse apples.
2. It was not you. It was a hydra of you and another player. You were lurky with no posting on relevant topics, and your hydra partner was lurky with no posting on relevant topics.

3. His vote on his counterwagon when both are hovering around 4-5 votes (819) instead of actually looking for scum.

Fuck that shit.

My reasons are my own.
Wagons have NOTHING to do with that. No votes, near-lynch, doesn't matter.
I vote who I want.
Me being wagoned, me being universally townread.
Doesn't influence me at all.
My vote is my own.

Why does this seem like an argument to a statement not made? Because it is.

To be more clear, when you made your vote in post 819, it was not through any clear process of scumhunting, nor did it purport to be a gut vote. As a matter of fact, your exact reasoning was

"I realize Vedith could be town, but I'm leaning against it and I need a place to vote so I might as well do this."

With 13 days left in the day, and you one vote behind Vedith. Deadline survival voting is way more forgivable than scumvoting your counterwagon to keep the momentum OFF of you.

Why on earth is there a fast wagon building on Teridax?

To echo PV, this was incredibly bizarre. I pushed RR about this at daystart and I didn't like his answers.

If you're expecting me to disagree, you're gonna have to look elsewhere, because I'm in full, FULL agreement, here. I absolutely HATE the buddy-buddy white knight defense of me when I am very, VERY much capable of defending myself.

But you didn't.
And you didn't call RR on on it either.

[PeregrineV]

Third times the charm, as much as I didn't intend to talk about myself....what matters, mastin, is not whether or not you can defend yourself. What matters is how much sense the wagon makes. At the start of the day, all the votes were coming at you, with no reason given, and no other votes occurring. It was weird. Drixx called out the weirdness. I don't understand where people got the idea that calling out strange behaviors and trends is bizarre. Did anyone ever even respond with reasons why they were voting you at the start of the day? No, that entire push was just swept under the rug like it never even happened..

Anyways, still at work, when I get home I'll respond to the responses people made to my questions and continue doing what I'm doing.

-Cerb

Weird.

Not investigation worthy, or pressure-wagon worthy, but just weird enough to caution us all that 4 votes in 3 pages way just too insane after the quicklynch of Performer yesterday.

It was not, for either you or Drixx, a chance to trap or catch scum loading up on a town wagon. It was a wagon worthy of only a "let's not be hasty lynching a player I have no read on".
https://youtu.be/H2iK5QHr3Is?t=2m51s

[PeregrineV]

emotions

Anti posted a reason, Idk how you think this is emotionally grounded

Youre right,

a reason

. In a game open to subjective opinion. When he's voting me for those same festering little emotions.

Lol, it's not an opinion, Heartless's observation is objectively true. Firebringer said he doesn't get Performer-scum, asked for an explanation, and never responded to the explanation when given.

The assumption would be "he got it"?

[PeregrineV]

Did he claim yet?

Drixx crumbed without telling me he was gonna do it, but no, we haven't claimed, and I won't claim because of lost utility.

Good question about who is a better lynch than me. That's kinda what I was trying to figure out with the whole isoing people thing, but I got bored with that, so I'm kinda fucked now. Too early in the game for me to have any real confidence in reads on many people(although, a note, I realized earlier I was totally lying when I said I didn't really think anyone was pretty certain to be town. That's untrue. I'm like 85% Mastin is town. I can give reasons, but this is already a digression from my point mid post.) I don't really buy the vedith wagon thing. I guess it's a valid point that he's disappeared and the wagon on us picked up, but meh, that could have happened for any number of reasons. I think Cephrir said Heartless made the first case against Vedith, but Heartless didn't even stay there, and nobody is pointing out a REASON, concrete, why Vedith is scum, they're just saying they don't like him. Need to look deeper into the field, obviously, than just that though, which I absolutely haven't done to my satisfaction yet.

-Cerb

I know this looks like psudo-reason for the Vedith push but he is pinging me like you wouldn't believe. Like his reactions to my short tunnel on him early Day 2 are what is driving me to want his lynch.

What is the this you're referring to? and who is the he? Sorry man, I have trouble deciphering your sentence structure sometimes.

He is Vedith.

I'm going to attempt to explain why I think his reaction is Scummy and I have to apologize for this, but its going to have to have something to do with another game (not going on).

In 4nxi3ty's game 'A Midnight Sun' Scum absolutely hated me. Here I'll prove it:

Scum Chat 1 from AMS
Scum Chat 2 from AMS

I'm pretty sure that since Vedith was in that game he is aware of this.

I don't buy for a second that Vedith saying I am just being stupid is him being genuine whatsoever.

Peregrine's interpretation of this=
"Vedith is scum because he is saying I'm stupid instead of hating me, like scum did in this game I am linking to, where he was scum."

Please correct this before I react, so we are all clear about what you mean (since it is the basis of your Vedith scumread).

[PeregrineV]

That claim doesn't make sense with your prior play

I think I will safely be able to quote a few players and follow it with

[PeregrineV]

Why would the BP respond to a backup-BP claim by saying

That was a pretty awful claim.

That's ridiculous

[PeregrineV]

Third times the charm, as much as I didn't intend to talk about myself....what matters, mastin, is not whether or not you can defend yourself. What matters is how much sense the wagon makes. At the start of the day, all the votes were coming at you, with no reason given, and no other votes occurring. It was weird. Drixx called out the weirdness. I don't understand where people got the idea that calling out strange behaviors and trends is bizarre. Did anyone ever even respond with reasons why they were voting you at the start of the day? No, that entire push was just swept under the rug like it never even happened..

Anyways, still at work, when I get home I'll respond to the responses people made to my questions and continue doing what I'm doing.

-Cerb

Weird.

Not investigation worthy, or pressure-wagon worthy, but just weird enough to caution us all that 4 votes in 3 pages way just too insane after the quicklynch of Performer yesterday.

It was not, for either you or Drixx, a chance to trap or catch scum loading up on a town wagon. It was a wagon worthy of only a "let's not be hasty lynching a player I have no read on".
https://youtu.be/H2iK5QHr3Is?t=2m51s

False. Mastin is super easy to read if you have played with her before. Scum-Mastin is playing the game from the opening post and prides herself on being a very successful master manipulator. Day one Teridax was so underwhelming as to basically 99% conftown Mastin. I even commented in a post that it was barely into the game and I could read Mastin as OTAF and that she should do something about that. The assertion that we had no read on Mastin, when I know that I personally commented on Mastin not being at all in her scum meta, is absurd.

And yes ... I view wagons that start to form without any reason on players who are well known on site to behave a certain way as scum (and apparently are disappointed when they aren't scum and lurksack?), and have not acted at all like they do as scum, despite a stable years long pattern ... I view those wagons as suspect and strange. No reasons were given, ergo me asking what was up.

PV, are you like not synched with the game or something? You are like the 4th person to make the same point, which has been answered already each time.

My bad. Can you quote me the day1 post that indicated your townread on Mastin/Teridax? or link it. Or them.

[PeregrineV]

It was not, for either you or Drixx, a chance to trap or catch scum loading up on a town wagon. It was a wagon worthy of only a "let's not be hasty lynching a player I have no read on".

Erm. How do you know this? Nobody ever answered or gave reasons for the early wagon this day phase against Mastin. Like every single person who was part of that early wagon never responded to us. You are asserting that there was zero chance for us to find any scum there ... but how can you know that or even assume that? None of those people have been willing to explain why they did what they did. For all you know, there might be a scum or two in that group.

I quoted the full post last post, but I wanted to specifically ask about this assertion you are making. You have made very few posts, and a lot of times appear to have missed large chunks of the game, but you have an oddly very specific assertion in this post. What's up with that?

This was the wagon when you made the post (679).

VOTE COUNT
Teridax (1): MattP, Cephrir, Vedith, pisskop

You think it's fast, but don't question anybody for their Teridax vote. You don't indicate it's town driven (indicating that 4 town players think he's scum, and thus inviting you to double check your reads on Teridax or your reads on those 4 players) nor that any of those players are scum for trying to mislynch Teridax-town.

You make a single sentence post to stop it, but don't invest in it otherwise.

It doesn't really make sense. It seems like a perfect scumhunting tool (to gather reads and find scum), and you, being Reasonable Rational and a logic driven player, do not use it. Either of you.

Even if you thought he was town, and know you are town, you could have been number 5 and been sure of scum hopping on after you.

You know, something where you try to catch or find scum.

[PeregrineV]

Errr... you said you crumbed on page 700? That's day 2, not day 1.

Did RR ever say he crumbed it day 1?

Example of scumhunting

I thought you said you weren't going to interact with me for the rest of the game. What made you change your mind if you don't mind me asking?

Example of off-topic non-relevant fluffposting that does not advance a read on you for others nor your reads on others while seeming to antagonize another player that is scumhunting.

@Lickety

- Do you see a difference between the 2? Any reason you are doing the 2nd one?

[PeregrineV]

Please show me a SINGLE time me selectively quoting from that wall has manipulated the tone of the post

Pretty much every time you take part of that post, you are using that part to make an argument. I believe your core argument at one point resolved around the first bit of the post where I said the claim was bad and responded to the ongoing argument about "Gut" that we had been having. Given that he was locked and on his way out of the game, I wasn't going to have much more chance to respond and make my point about it. You have quoted just that part and presented it as if it were the entire post and accused me of "coaching" and already locked teammate, which is just a bizarre thing to actually think anyone would do... how the hell would coaching help someone already locked?

On the one hand you don't seem to understand that a post can contain multiple threads of conversation (your assertion that calling the role claim bad and then having a theory discussion was dissonant in some way), but now you are saying that quoting the whole post would be inane, so you clearly seem to think that you can decide which parts of the post are separate thoughts. You are contradicting yourself.

Another time you quoted the end of the post where I noted I found the claim to be absurd (again: I have

never

seen back up roles on this site. In fact, the only time in nearly a decade of playing forum mafia that I've seen a back up role was in the first game I ever played, where I was a backup to the doctor,

but was not informed of that in my role PM

). In hundreds of games, I've never seen a back up

anything

, let alone a backup to my own role.

Can you honestly say that you found that claim at all believable? Have you ever played a game on site with back up roles? Was it a game checked for normalcy and balance? How frequently have you seen that mechanic used? You are saying that it is

unbelievable

that I am BP but would find performer's claim specious, but I think if you honestly evaluate your own experience you will also realize just how specious a claim of "back up" anything at all is. It actually strikes me as a clever attempt, in retrospect, because claiming something that is super uncommon is probably the most likely way to get people to stop and reconsider.

But remember... he was already locked by the time I checked into the thread, so I was just commenting and interacting in twilight. It's like how I asked PV whether his treatment of Ika today would vary depending on the flip, and never got an answer. If he had said he would push to lynch Ika no matter what as a PL for quick hammering, I would have viewed that as possibly being scum opportunism. If he said he would re-evaluate depending on the flip result, I would have viewed that as slightly townie. The lack of response is null. If PV was super active, it would be scummy because I could be sure he just flat out ignored it on purpose, but since he has been oddly disconnected from the game, I can't make heads or tails of it.

The point of all of this is that you aren't looking at me/us as a whole. You are zooming in and looking for things you can take out of context and use to support your speculation that Maxous died because he was scum reading us on day one and therefore we must have killed him. You are, as the saying goes, missing the forest for the trees. The primary question is whether you are doing so intentionally.

Not going to verbatim respond to this, but I feel you have enough experience (between the 2 of you) to know what a backup role is. You may have played hundreds of games between you and never had it, but I find it hard to believe you've never seen it.

But even leaving that aside, why on God's green earth does a Mafia Goon claim Back-up BP instead of BP? BP is neither town nor scum, since it can effectively be either.
To me, that claim makes more sense if Performer knows that a BP exists. And it being day1, he only knows that one exists if there is a scum BP.

There is no reason to push ika, since he is dead.

If I missed something important you want an answer to, let me know.

[PeregrineV]

Errr... you said you crumbed on page 700? That's day 2, not day 1.

I mentioned it in

post

700. I said that if they had been paying attention they would know we had something to lose. I am running out of time to find the earlier crumb. I generally crumb this by suggesting that scum will find it unpleasant to visit us or something similar. It will be part of a larger post. I simply don't recall exactly where I first crumbed it. I obviously did crumb it and remembered crumbing it because I refer to having done so in post #700 and later on I said something like "It's not like we've crumbed our role or anyth... oh wait" to someone.

It's kind of not all that relevant at this point. We're BP. The utility of that is now gone, but the potential utility of our play is still available if folks will zoom back out, take a look at the big picture, and move on. If you guys are paranoid about us later on, we can still be lynched then. You can't undo it and go "oops" if you refuse to see reason and push just to see our flip and see I was being honest.

You should have crumbed doc, cop, or Beloved princess. Something that would draw the NK to you and make it be wasted.

Why would you crumb be "scum don't wanna come visit me"? when you really want them to?

[PeregrineV]

Third times the charm, as much as I didn't intend to talk about myself....what matters, mastin, is not whether or not you can defend yourself. What matters is how much sense the wagon makes. At the start of the day, all the votes were coming at you, with no reason given, and no other votes occurring. It was weird. Drixx called out the weirdness. I don't understand where people got the idea that calling out strange behaviors and trends is bizarre. Did anyone ever even respond with reasons why they were voting you at the start of the day? No, that entire push was just swept under the rug like it never even happened..

Anyways, still at work, when I get home I'll respond to the responses people made to my questions and continue doing what I'm doing.

-Cerb

Weird.

Not investigation worthy, or pressure-wagon worthy, but just weird enough to caution us all that 4 votes in 3 pages way just too insane after the quicklynch of Performer yesterday.

It was not, for either you or Drixx, a chance to trap or catch scum loading up on a town wagon. It was a wagon worthy of only a "let's not be hasty lynching a player I have no read on".
https://youtu.be/H2iK5QHr3Is?t=2m51s

False. Mastin is super easy to read if you have played with her before. Scum-Mastin is playing the game from the opening post and prides herself on being a very successful master manipulator. Day one Teridax was so underwhelming as to basically 99% conftown Mastin. I even commented in a post that it was barely into the game and I could read Mastin as OTAF and that she should do something about that. The assertion that we had no read on Mastin, when I know that I personally commented on Mastin not being at all in her scum meta, is absurd.

And yes ... I view wagons that start to form without any reason on players who are well known on site to behave a certain way as scum (and apparently are disappointed when they aren't scum and lurksack?), and have not acted at all like they do as scum, despite a stable years long pattern ... I view those wagons as suspect and strange. No reasons were given, ergo me asking what was up.

PV, are you like not synched with the game or something? You are like the 4th person to make the same point, which has been answered already each time.

My bad. Can you quote me the day1 post that indicated your townread on Mastin/Teridax? or link it. Or them.

I don't believe I said anywhere in #1772 that we explicitly posted a read on day one. My ISO isn't particularly long and control+f in most browsers will let you search for Mastin and you can see every comment we made about her.

You mean, I should do exactly what I did before posting this gem:

In no way is that a "fast wagon" unless you really care about a wagon building on confirmed town or a scumbuddy. Since RR did not indicate Teridax was ever town, then is has to be for the other reason.

I did.

And I did it again.

You indicated no read whatsoever for Teridax/Mastin day1.

You try it.

[PeregrineV]

It was not, for either you or Drixx, a chance to trap or catch scum loading up on a town wagon. It was a wagon worthy of only a "let's not be hasty lynching a player I have no read on".

Erm. How do you know this? Nobody ever answered or gave reasons for the early wagon this day phase against Mastin. Like every single person who was part of that early wagon never responded to us. You are asserting that there was zero chance for us to find any scum there ... but how can you know that or even assume that? None of those people have been willing to explain why they did what they did. For all you know, there might be a scum or two in that group.

I quoted the full post last post, but I wanted to specifically ask about this assertion you are making. You have made very few posts, and a lot of times appear to have missed large chunks of the game, but you have an oddly very specific assertion in this post. What's up with that?

This was the wagon when you made the post (679).

VOTE COUNT
Teridax (1): MattP, Cephrir, Vedith, pisskop

You think it's fast, but don't question anybody for their Teridax vote. You don't indicate it's town driven (indicating that 4 town players think he's scum, and thus inviting you to double check your reads on Teridax or your reads on those 4 players) nor that any of those players are scum for trying to mislynch Teridax-town.

You make a single sentence post to stop it, but don't invest in it otherwise.

It doesn't really make sense. It seems like a perfect scumhunting tool (to gather reads and find scum), and you, being Reasonable Rational and a logic driven player, do not use it. Either of you.

Even if you thought he was town, and know you are town, you could have been number 5 and been sure of scum hopping on after you.

You know, something where you try to catch or find scum.

Interesting post.

1.) We did question the wagon, but nobody answered. Then Vedith got wagoned and he seemed like a fairly likely candidate for scum on that wagon so there wasn't a lot of reason to pursue the others on the wagon just then.

It seemed your question was very much like this.


Then, when Vedith got wagoned & "he seemed like a fairly likely candidate for scum".
Funnily enough, I did one of those day1 ISO things for Vedith. No indication then he was scum. What and when was this feeling triggered?

2.) Then we very suddenly became the focus of the day and have had to defend ourselves ever since. In my experience, it's not a good idea to go questioning people about two wagons earlier when people are pushing you, but certainly I still think Vedith makes sense as the obvious scum on that wagon.

Still no "why" in there.

3.) I've never considered voting on a wagon with the idea of enticing scum to join the wagon. How would I figure out which people were town sheeping me and which were scum? That sounds like a great idea when you write it like that and assert that it's a scum hunting tool, but I'm not sure how that would work in practice.

Why would you think town would sheep you onto a mislynch of Mastin before scum would opportunistically jump on a mislynch of mastin?

And finally, your assertion that we didn't try to figure anything out from that wagon is specious. We questioned it, Vedith was wagoned briefly and then we were the counterwagon to him. I've pointed this out already.

Vedith's wagon seem to come from town probers, probing and scumhunting. Yours and Mastins votes seem to be the opposite.

[PeregrineV]

Please show me a SINGLE time me selectively quoting from that wall has manipulated the tone of the post

Pretty much every time you take part of that post, you are using that part to make an argument. I believe your core argument at one point resolved around the first bit of the post where I said the claim was bad and responded to the ongoing argument about "Gut" that we had been having. Given that he was locked and on his way out of the game, I wasn't going to have much more chance to respond and make my point about it. You have quoted just that part and presented it as if it were the entire post and accused me of "coaching" and already locked teammate, which is just a bizarre thing to actually think anyone would do... how the hell would coaching help someone already locked?

On the one hand you don't seem to understand that a post can contain multiple threads of conversation (your assertion that calling the role claim bad and then having a theory discussion was dissonant in some way), but now you are saying that quoting the whole post would be inane, so you clearly seem to think that you can decide which parts of the post are separate thoughts. You are contradicting yourself.

Another time you quoted the end of the post where I noted I found the claim to be absurd (again: I have

never

seen back up roles on this site. In fact, the only time in nearly a decade of playing forum mafia that I've seen a back up role was in the first game I ever played, where I was a backup to the doctor,

but was not informed of that in my role PM

). In hundreds of games, I've never seen a back up

anything

, let alone a backup to my own role.

Can you honestly say that you found that claim at all believable? Have you ever played a game on site with back up roles? Was it a game checked for normalcy and balance? How frequently have you seen that mechanic used? You are saying that it is

unbelievable

that I am BP but would find performer's claim specious, but I think if you honestly evaluate your own experience you will also realize just how specious a claim of "back up" anything at all is. It actually strikes me as a clever attempt, in retrospect, because claiming something that is super uncommon is probably the most likely way to get people to stop and reconsider.

But remember... he was already locked by the time I checked into the thread, so I was just commenting and interacting in twilight. It's like how I asked PV whether his treatment of Ika today would vary depending on the flip, and never got an answer. If he had said he would push to lynch Ika no matter what as a PL for quick hammering, I would have viewed that as possibly being scum opportunism. If he said he would re-evaluate depending on the flip result, I would have viewed that as slightly townie. The lack of response is null. If PV was super active, it would be scummy because I could be sure he just flat out ignored it on purpose, but since he has been oddly disconnected from the game, I can't make heads or tails of it.

The point of all of this is that you aren't looking at me/us as a whole. You are zooming in and looking for things you can take out of context and use to support your speculation that Maxous died because he was scum reading us on day one and therefore we must have killed him. You are, as the saying goes, missing the forest for the trees. The primary question is whether you are doing so intentionally.

Not going to verbatim respond to this, but I feel you have enough experience (between the 2 of you) to know what a backup role is. You may have played hundreds of games between you and never had it, but I find it hard to believe you've never seen it.

But even leaving that aside, why on God's green earth does a Mafia Goon claim Back-up BP instead of BP? BP is neither town nor scum, since it can effectively be either.
To me, that claim makes more sense if Performer knows that a BP exists. And it being day1, he only knows that one exists if there is a scum BP.

There is no reason to push ika, since he is dead.

If I missed something important you want an answer to, let me know.

I already said that in my first ever forum mafia game I was a backup, so I am aware the role exists. Lots of roles exist which are almost never used. Backup roles are so uncommon as to be essentially not even worth considering in most cases.

Are you intentionally evading what I said the point of questioning you about Ika was? I even said what answer would have made me town or scum read you, had you actually answered yesterday in twilight. Of course there's no reason to push Ika because he's dead. Why are you implying that I suggested anything of the sort?

When you said it.

It's like how I asked PV whether his treatment of Ika today would vary depending on the flip, and never got an answer.

[PeregrineV]

I like RR's claim and it's certainly testable if there's a vig. I think it's a suboptimal lynch.

Can you restate this please. Because the way you state is here is highly scummy.

[PeregrineV]

OK, gotta go home now, but good with a Teridax vig tonight, if I don;t make it back on.

if I do, still good with it.

[PeregrineV]

I'm so conflicted at the moment about this lynch

Don't be. If town, he is effectively VT at this point, and we will have a full wagon to examine.

[PeregrineV]

Leave for 5 minutes and the lynch goes sideways?

Why?

RR has yet to respond to the source of his miraculous appearing reads today, lied about crumbling day1, has not played like a BP town, and has looked to appealed to emotion to avoid his lynch.

Vedith claimed/hinted his bomb role a while ago, making RR's whole tirade about bomb/pgo even worse. Grasping at claim straws to avoid 2 scum lynches in a row.

I can't believe I'm saying this and it can never be quoted, but I miss ika's craphammers.

[PeregrineV]

Town vig and vengeful townie plus

1. Town BP
2. Scum BP

???
Which seems more likely?

@pisskop- are you voting RR?

Would also a accept Mastin lynch and probably Panther lynch.

[PeregrineV]

Vedith, I think you are a good lynch. I don't believe your claim.

Why are you Town?

Why not?

[PeregrineV]

Monkey man can be the vig kill tonight.

[PeregrineV]

if its made up why arent you voting for people voting him? i.e. peri?

Because I don't have any Town reads and Vedith seems the scummiest.

perhps a breif read of the game would help.

[PeregrineV]

What kind of Venge is that?
Thats crap.
Now all scum are going to unvote you >.>

That's pretty standard.

Question is, can vengeful townie kill a scum bulletproof?

[PeregrineV]

Our collective town read list now includes:
Cephrir, davesaz, Kthxbye, LicketyQuickety, mastin2, MattP, Reasonably Rational, Spiffeh, TheWayItEnds

Leaving everyone else in the muddled mess:
BotLane, HerryPanther, Firebringer, MonkeyMan576, PeregrineV, pisskop, Vedith

Botlane and Monkeyman are on the town side of the middle.
As much as Antihero's fussing about the HerryPanther town reads, I think Post 316, Post 317, and Post 318 would be a weird scum-scum interaction. The Vedith case might not have "BANG" due to herr's presentation of it but it makes enough sense. HerryPanther's on the town side of the middle for me.

Wow. Perhaps you should be very specific about your reads.

Panther has a shitty case on a town player, but that is good enough for you?

[PeregrineV]

Vedith, I think you are a good lynch. I don't believe your claim.

Why are you Town?

Why not?

Because his Scum hunting is fake.

Actually, since he is town, his scum hunting is real.
Besides, you just said you haven't read the game, so not sure what any of this is based on.

[PeregrineV]

I now think Vedith is town

RR I'm not interested in today

VOTE: LicketyQuickety

Why the lack of interest in RR?

[PeregrineV]

hey guys

someone is still a dirty rotten scumbag
i'll give you a hint. his name starts with "fire" and ends with "bringer"

plz tell me if you give up and want me to tell you who it is. i bet you'll never guess.

Huh?

[PeregrineV]

hey

hey peregrine

VOTE: herrypanther

A little better. But, you should go fr consistency and vote RR.

[PeregrineV]

But even leaving that aside, why on God's green earth does a Mafia Goon claim Back-up BP instead of BP? BP is neither town nor scum, since it can effectively be either.
To me, that claim makes more sense if Performer knows that a BP exists. And it being day1,

he only knows that one exists if there is a scum BP

.

Bolded is a wrong assumption, it is not the only way scum would be able to know/assume a BP. If scum have a strongman, they expect town to have a BP. Making a fake claim that results in a BP counter identifies who they need to use the strongman on.

BTW I'm still trying to catch up, think I left off at the bottom of page 72.

Strongman gets through doc, jail keeper, roleblocker, bodyguard, and even commuter (in some games). So "claiming BP to draw out the BP" and not draw out a more powerful town PR is another of those plays I find questionable.

[PeregrineV]

RR, based on the wording of your role PM, would you be immune to Vedith's Vengeful kill (or suggest that daykills could possibly exist)?

I could see Vengeful as a scum fakeclaim which, combined with Vedith's insistence on shooting someone we don't want him to shoot, is supposed to serve as deterrence. It's a pretty BAD claim, but I could see that as the intent.

Vengeful is a dumb scum fake claim. It requires lyching scum, which scum do not want.

[PeregrineV]

I have seen the vengeful mechanic done that way on a different site. IMO claiming it when it works that way is the worst way to play it for town. As claimed it sets up people who stay on the wagon to be townread and people who leave the wagon to be scumread. And it sets up town to not want to lynch the player. Put all that together and it makes a dandy claim for scum.

I'm not sure on RR. A SK might want to claim their BP to call off both attempted vig and scum kills, and furthermore might not even be BP but claim it anyway. Many people get mixed or townish reads from SK's which could explain the strong division of opinion on the slot.

Neither claim makes the claimant town by itself. We need to filter the claim through the lens of regular reads.

They have 132 posts. What is your regular read on them, and what posts inform that read?

[PeregrineV]

RR, based on the wording of your role PM, would you be immune to Vedith's Vengeful kill (or suggest that daykills could possibly exist)?

I could see Vengeful as a scum fakeclaim which, combined with Vedith's insistence on shooting someone we don't want him to shoot, is supposed to serve as deterrence. It's a pretty BAD claim, but I could see that as the intent.

I asked for clarification from the mod on my roles limitations the moment I received it. Based on the pm itself, I can't answer your questions, but I asked SC the same questions. My BP will function against a day kill and against a vengeful shot, assuming the roles making those slots don't have other modifiers.

-Cerb

The moment you got your role PM, you asked if it would protect you from a vengeful shot?

[PeregrineV]

@RR- just going by what you said.

When town BP, I ask "will I be informed when a kill attempt is made on me?" Because if scum shoot me, I'd like to know. If a vig shoots me, then I'm wasting a town power by being scummy.
When a scum BP, I want to know what kind of protection it offers. Will it stop pgo, bomb, vengeful, SK, if I get targeted twice in one night will is stop both, stuff like that. Because me scum-death reduces my teams win chance nor than my death as town BP.

At this point, I'm looking for actions/claims/whatnot by you that makes me say "I would do that as town BP." Because then you might be town. But when you say stuff that doesn't resonate with town BP, then it hard to shake the scum read on you.

I did mention everything else, which still stands.

In addition, I'm looking for *more* from you that will overturn my scum read. Like scum hunting. You've spent so much time trying to NOT be lynched that if you were hammered right now, the sum of information I would have from your slot is "teridax is town, vedith is scum". That and the composition of your wagon.
Since I think your only two reads are wrong, I don't really see a town contribution from you.

[PeregrineV]

Glad we were able to avenge the death of StrangerCoug!!

Good job town!

Probably good thing I died early- my other scumreads were town (and killed off by TWIE...lol)

Thanks, SC, for modding and letting me play!