Trouble in The Cougar's Den (Game over!)

[Heartless]

just when you think

you're in control

just when you think

you've got a hold

just
when
you
get
on
a
roll

HERE IT GOES
HERE IT GOES
HERE IT GOES
A
G
A
I
N

VOTE: reasonably rational

[Heartless]

anti

are you town

yes

i was going to answer this with poop joke instead, but i couldn't come up w/ anything

fuck it

[Heartless]

rn i'm just waiting to troll mastin

[Heartless]

it would take quite a bit to make me regret a poop joke, ika. i wouldn't pull that thread if i were you.

[Heartless]

shit... i can't even rouse myself to troll mastin...

flkds;ajmdvoiea984a9;f

[Heartless]

Troll me with your sincerity, then, Anti.

i dont have enough booze for that

[Heartless]

...am i...

am i townreading ceph?

hold on a sec, i need to go take my temperature...

[Heartless]

phew... 107

i was worried there for a second...

[Heartless]

VOTE: Aeronaut

[Heartless]

ns is another great vote.

[Heartless]

reasons are for ravens and scum

[Heartless]

VOTE: Aeronaut

ns is another great vote.

Not understanding either of these, anti. I scumread Aeronaut for 106, but I was dead null on him before that and have a slight town read on NS currently. What exactly am I missing?

-Ank

aero announcing that he's reading the thread on page 5 is scum awkward entrance. but yeah... 106 is scummy too so my good vote just got better.

ns read's hard to explain, but it's mostly Post 71. calling the early exchange a "travesty" by itself feels off because it doesn't really feel... like an appropriate thing to say? (not sure if "appropriate" is the the right word there). hyping a future post is also ehhhhhhhhh :\
needling ika on a ceph townread isn't really doin' much for me either and also makes me go ehhhhhhhhh :\

what are you townreading about ns?

[Heartless]

calling the early exchange a "travesty" by itself feels off because it doesn't really feel... like an appropriate thing to say? (not sure if "appropriate" is the the right word there).

maybe clarifying this

i think scum are a lot more to offer unsolicited negative opinions on the significance or worthwhile-ness of a discussion, especially early game. i don't know if it's to undermine any reads that result from these conversations? i really don't know why scum do it. i just know they do it.

[Heartless]

Aeronaut can be town for now.

hur?

[Heartless]

I don't see how a "reading now" post can ping you one way or another. That's null to me.

I liked the one real post he made so far. Tell me why you don't like it.

fine, it can be null to you. you're wrong, but i really don't have the inclination to walk you through it since you're probably going to brush me off at the end of it anyway.

what did you like about it?

it's a bunch of non-stances disguised as stances or just bland summary. perfect example: the thing on rr.
"I don't really know how to read RR's reaction, currently. It's definitely an overreaction; but at the same time it feels like ALL of drixx's posts are long-winded."

the commentary is limited to one very thin sliver of why ppl are scumreading rr (the "overreaction") and at the end of all of it, the conclusion is that it's all a wash. whooooooooooowie. really going for that hard-hitting analysis.

"Well, he clearly doesn't like your reaction. I think it's weird that you spend so much time telling us about how you do SO MANY reaction tests, and when someone sort of does one for you, it's suddenly sketchy."

the needling at rr while keeping on the periphery of the main action AND keeping the vote on monkeyman also bugs me.

[Heartless]

i'd also vote bpc

[Heartless]

hey mastin

tth thinks you're scum

throw me a bone next time you're on, plz

[Heartless]

Hi everybody. ^_^/

So far I'm on pretty much the same wavelength as Antihero in terms of reads, so I'll enjoy that while it lasts.

VOTE: Aeronaut

Could have called this.

How?

hey mastin

tth thinks you're scum

@TellTale

: why?

i also have a twinge based on #25

There's a couple things. vezok's Post 52 feels like a post to keep under the radar while appearing to weigh in on the early RR controversy. I also don't care for mastin taking a shot at Cephrir like she did.

[Heartless]

None that are worth sharing.

[Heartless]

this wagon can happen

VOTE: bpc

[Heartless]

/preemptive point b/c i know i'm going to come back to pooh-poohers and it's going to drive my blood pressure through the fucking roof
(part of why i hate large games, but... whatever)

we're wagoning bpc b/c of the non-opinion presented as an opinion in Post 130 and waiting on a vote count to vote this early. these are textbook "fly under the radar" maneuvers scum use to navigate early game situations. if you think that's "weak," push someone who you think is clearly scummier. and use words.

if anyone uses the phrases "wouldn't make a mistake like that as scum, look at his join date," "speed of the wagon," "opportunistic," or "plaid shorts," i will fucking hate your guts.

and before you ask, yes ceph, i'm looking at you.

[Heartless]

the fact that clothing from 10 years ago still fit you is more worrying than the fashion decision

[Heartless]

^ Heartless do you think that is a scum post?

/not getting sucked into this

[Heartless]

just so we're clear, i have absolutely zero interest in deconstructing an rvs tell with you.

if you want to talk about it after the game or start an md thread on it after the game, fine. i'm not going to make chunky sentences about specific context when it's all going to go back to "gut" anyway.

and if you're going to argue that you're trying to read me based on that, i hate you.

[Heartless]

@ika I believe a 3rd party being in a 20-player setup , isn't out of the ordinary.
How come you asked that so early on?

I like Ved. His questioning looks town.

Reas, thoughts on the leading wagon (you)?

Initiating playstyle imitations: Metal Sonic, Aristophanes, Titus

hello scum read #4

[Heartless]

antihero, do you have any townreads?

yes

now fuck off.

[Heartless]

and yes... before you ask... i'm really cranky right now

[Heartless]

and yes... before you ask... i'm really cranky right now

are you ever not?

did that make you feel good?
do you feel good about yourself now that you said that?

jackass

[Heartless]

ok... well i guess i'll go shove a cactus up my ass and go to sleep now.

[Heartless]

I don't really have much exciting to add. I'm town reading Spiffeh mostly for the way his conversations with Antihero have been going.

Guys. How hard is it to differentiate me from mastin?

I'm trying to make sense of this game, but it feels s disjointed. I think we need a wagon.

@.@

You really feel this way vezok? There's a couple wagons with Reasonably Rational and BipolarChemist, both of which have fairly clear, well-described reasons. There's been a couple side conversations but the core of the discussion in Antihero, Cephrir, Ankamius, and Drixx have been pretty smooth and easy to follow.

It's concerning that you're already stuck in this lost, helpless mode when it doesn't match what's actually going on with the game state and when you have a hydra partner like mastin at your disposal.

[Heartless]

If it's a wagon either of you want, there

is

something you can do about it.

Vote.

[Heartless]

Cute.

If you don't have anything fresh and compelling on TWIE, I'd appreciate it if you lent us your vote to the BpC wagon.

[Heartless]

my immediate thought is that it seems like some throwing under the bus. haven't really read into their other posts yet, but from skimming, I've found long in the past (like 2 years i think?) that Drixx tends to talk himself in circles no matter the alignment and it seems like that trend is continuing. I'd probs vote them but IDK where the vote count is at right now

I'm translating this as
"My immediate though it that it seems like scum BotLane is throwing ReasonablyRational under the bus, but from skimming Reasonably Rational's posts, his style is not alignment indicative. I would probably vote ReasonablyRationale, except it may be the hammer vote, I don't want to be responsible for his lynch."

I'm I reading it wrong?

Vote: BiPolarChemist

If anyone has specific questions for me about the first 8 pages, fire away. Otherwise, I think the BPC wagon is something I can get on board with. I agree with the heart of Pere's 190 -- I thought BPC's 130 felt scummy, his main point was ambiguous and it looks like he's trying to draw associative tells without a whole lot to go on. A whole lot of noise, not a lot of substance.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: BiPolarChemist

-Herr

we're wagoning bpc b/c of the non-opinion presented as an opinion in Post 130 and waiting on a vote count to vote this early. these are textbook "fly under the radar" maneuvers scum use to navigate early game situations. if you think that's "weak," push someone who you think is clearly scummier. and use words.

-.-
Damn.

[Heartless]

Haha, good one old sport. You had me going there. For a second, I thought you were planning on not reading the thread and asking me to spoon feed you.

[Heartless]

ika, you already got your helping of sarcasm for today. Get back in line.

[Heartless]

Nobody. :S

Is that a riddle?

[Heartless]

It's in the seat of Anti's pants. Reach in there and see if you can find it.

Nobody. :S

Is that a riddle?

Yes it is, this is your homework tonight, report back to me tomorrow with you 10 page report on your findings

Alright-y. ^_^

(I'll stop spamming now.)

[Heartless]

ooooo..........

yikes

[Heartless]

the "fear" we would "sheep" comes off as pretty disingenuous.

i mean... by the fact that i voted the bpc wagon and tth is trying to get support for it, it should be pretty obvious which wagon we like better. if your question is trying to get at a read on rr, 1) you could've straight up asked and 2) that read is still developing so... no.

[Heartless]

...and before someone comes in and pisses me off by saying something about "defensiveness" yes i am defensive.

i'm defensive that someone who has shown zero evidence of reading the thread is now asking a dumb question and coming at it with this completely unwarranted authoritative attitude.

[Heartless]

Gut based on his posts up to that point.

your gut's full of shit

[Heartless]

So you don't have a read on RR but can scumread BPC after a couple of posts strongly enough to push a wagon? Interesting...

post volume is the same thing as readability?

[Heartless]

Actually, that was a serious question. I have an opinion and want to read you by seeing if your opinion makes sense or not.
Obviously it would not make sense to state my opinion first, since you can sheep it to avoid suspicion.

gross gross gross bad bad bad lynch lynch lynch wagon wagon wagon

chandragoggles.jpg

you're probably chasing a red herring

[Heartless]

but it's so shiny

i know, and don't expect the hilariously bad posts to stop any time soon

but...

it's probably a trap

[Heartless]

i dunno i kinda don't think that having no town motivation in one's posts is necessarily a playstyle thing

dave has the finesse of a one-legged unicyclist.

you're confusing "terrible arguments and methodology" with "scum motivation." if he's scum he's picking losing battles, which is something scum don't tend to do.

[Heartless]

i gave him a shellacking in our last 1 v 1

i'm pretty certain he's aware...

[Heartless]

performer seamlessly fell off the face of the earth...

[Heartless]

[Heartless]

speaking of things that are intensifying...

my scum read on performer as he continues to not post

[Heartless]

Initiating playstyle imitations: Metal Sonic, Aristophanes, Titus

FALSE ADVERTISING

[Heartless]

am i just going to get another half-assed townread?

b/c if so, i'll gladly let my horses kick you in the face

[Heartless]

hahahahahahahahaahahaahaaahahahaHAHAHAAHAAHAHAAHAHAHAAHHAAHAHAAH

wow

VOTE: performer

[Heartless]

I like Ved. His questioning looks town.

pfffffffft
pffffffffffffffffffffffffffft

pffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffft

[Heartless]

am i just going to get another half-assed townread?

b/c if so, i'll gladly let my horses kick you in the face

what do you mean half-assed townread? wtf
Ved's obvtown to me

i didn't mean "the intensity of the read" when i said "half-assed." i meant it was for vague, craptacular, throw-away reasoning and just lazily tossed out there where it writhes impotently and uselessly

...and that's the adjective that best describes Post 310, btw

HALF

ASSED

half of it's ass and the other half is covered in shit.

you have (or at least appear to have) read the thread in some detail because you're referencing VERY SPECIFIC things people said ("Not seeing your point about a difference between “wagon and WAGON.” A wagon is a wagon.")

when it comes to MAJOR THINGS like why people have voted the bpc wagon (WHICH HAS BEEN TALKED ABOUT THREE GODDAMN TIMES AND REPEATED BY TTH FOR GOOD MEASURE), your thoughts are scattered to the fucking wind

that's because there's no thoughts to be had, and what you're actually doing is trying to find the way to best present it to where you look like you're following along and participating. you happen to be pretty bad at that.

and you're doing this instead of attempting to scumhunt.
because you're scum.

[Heartless]

Thanks for answering. Would be nice if other people took the question seriously.

yes, no one else has been giving opinions on bpc and aero.

no one.

[Heartless]

I don't see how a "reading now" post can ping you one way or another. That's null to me.

I liked the one real post he made so far. Tell me why you don't like it.

fine, it can be null to you. you're wrong, but i really don't have the inclination to walk you through it since you're probably going to brush me off at the end of it anyway.

what did you like about it?

it's a bunch of non-stances disguised as stances or just bland summary. perfect example: the thing on rr.
"I don't really know how to read RR's reaction, currently. It's definitely an overreaction; but at the same time it feels like ALL of drixx's posts are long-winded."

the commentary is limited to one very thin sliver of why ppl are scumreading rr (the "overreaction") and at the end of all of it, the conclusion is that it's all a wash. whooooooooooowie. really going for that hard-hitting analysis.

"Well, he clearly doesn't like your reaction. I think it's weird that you spend so much time telling us about how you do SO MANY reaction tests, and when someone sort of does one for you, it's suddenly sketchy."

the needling at rr while keeping on the periphery of the main action AND keeping the vote on monkeyman also bugs me.

^totally not an opinion on aero

[Heartless]

@Heart nothing else stood out upon a skim when I replaced in. Ved's posts stood out when I first replaced in, as town.

...and the oscar goes to...

NOT YOU

the question is not about volume, try as you may to keep bringing it back there

[Heartless]

Thanks for answering. Would be nice if other people took the question seriously.

yes, no one else has been giving opinions on bpc and aero.

no one.

Ooh, you noticed me. I'm impressed.
Have you posted anything meaningful on Aero

after

my post?
Have you posted anything meaningful on BpC at all? (yes, I know you have posted *stuff*)

If you weren't such an arrogant prick, you'd have a conversation with me instead of trying to belittle my posting. Pull your head out please.

The fact that you're either not keeping up with the game or are purposefully forcing people to repeat themselves isn't on Anti at all. And perhaps the arrogance doesn't lie with the person not trying to impose his own time table on everyone else.

Why do you care

when

something was posted? If this is a good-faith attempt to discuss reads on your part, you're being awfully rigid and inflexible about it.

:S

[Heartless]

I think we should stop pulling apart the Reasonably Rational wagon TBQH

they come into this game very aggressive, throw poor accusations at Spiffeh, call Cephrir or somebody a scumbuddy for defending him, they got a whole lot of heat for thier push and look what they are doing now...they aren't giving any scumreads, their aggression has disappeared and they are trying to lay low and weather the wagon out.

TL;DR: They are more interested in ducking the wagon than finding the scum players

I'm also pretty concerned that RR is a non-entity in the discussion right now.

[Heartless]

arrogant prick

lol not gonna' argue w/ that

[Heartless]

I don't understand why the attitude is necessary.

it is what it is, ceph

there's not much good to come from pulling this thread

[Heartless]

Oh, another thing that I feel pretty strongly about:

BPC wagon is crap. his post IS a little concerning, but it's hardly enough to wagon someone over.

-Cerb

setting an arbitrary limit on what is "enough" to wagon someone is incredibly stupid and will only serve to make the game dysfunctional

[Heartless]

this is antihero

With all that said, two data points are insufficient for me to feel like BPC is scum. There's no reason for BPC scum to express that Drixx's wordiness is a null tell, while contradicting himself in the same post. It's more likely for town to do that, than scum, because town are less concerned with appearances than scum, and are thus more likely to simply not notice that what they said DOESN'T MAKE SENSE.

for the most part, this is wrong.

[Heartless]

well we can start with the pretty obvious fact bpc never contradicted himself.

then, we can correct the "town are less concerned with appearances" because that's some md bullshit that's been perpetuated by ppl who don't actually play games

[Heartless]

Spoiler:

I bet Ank was chatting in his scum chat outside his hydra and that's how he slipped. Wagon pls

VOTE: BotLane

I went and looked at the opening post just to be sure my memory wasn't faulty. The mod hasn't specified whether the scum do or do not have day chat. Your statement has an implicit assumption that they do. Care to explain that?

Love,
Drixx

VOTE: Reasonably Rational

That is not a town post.

my immediate thought is that it seems like some throwing under the bus. haven't really read into their other posts yet, but from skimming, I've found long in the past (like 2 years i think?) that Drixx tends to talk himself in circles no matter the alignment and it seems like that trend is continuing. I'd probs vote them but IDK where the vote count is at right now

while "drixx being wordy" is deemed "null," his overall thrust was that botlane was bussing you.

again, there is no contradiction.

[Heartless]

Spoiler: md screed

I know I couldn't care less what players think of me as town, the vast majority of the time.

oh bullshit.

if you honestly don't, you should. influence means a lot as both town and scum because it's what allows you to get shit done. if you're town and everyone's calling you scum 1) you're a mislynch and 2) no one's listening to your reads because they all think it's coming from a corrupted mindset. both of these things hinder a town win condition.

[Heartless]

Spoiler:

I bet Ank was chatting in his scum chat outside his hydra and that's how he slipped. Wagon pls

VOTE: BotLane

I went and looked at the opening post just to be sure my memory wasn't faulty. The mod hasn't specified whether the scum do or do not have day chat. Your statement has an implicit assumption that they do. Care to explain that?

Love,
Drixx

VOTE: Reasonably Rational

That is not a town post.

my immediate thought is that it seems like some throwing under the bus. haven't really read into their other posts yet, but from skimming, I've found long in the past (like 2 years i think?) that Drixx tends to talk himself in circles no matter the alignment and it seems like that trend is continuing. I'd probs vote them but IDK where the vote count is at right now

while "drixx being wordy" is deemed "null," his overall thrust was that botlane was bussing you.

again, there is no contradiction.

Hmm. Point taken. So he expressed null on our slot, and considered voting BotLane? So this entire discussion is coming about because of the ambiguity of his wording? That's...reasonable. Hmm. I mean, it reaches the same conclusion that the wagon in him is kinda silly though, but the reasons are very different.

-Cerb

needing a vote count before voting botlane is even MORE bizarre. i was just assuming when he said "them" he meant you.

[Heartless]

I don't know why you'd do that, as either alignment.

because the act of wagoning as scum is something that has inherent risk and if he's going to call you scum and not back it up with a vote, he needs a reason for it.

as for why town would do that... yeah, you got me. i don't know.

[Heartless]

/ugh

welp

i'm finally getting my bpc wagon but now there's things i want more

[Heartless]

Well, that was the weekend from hell.

I'm feeling extremely apathetic about this game right about now. Just seems like a lot of haranguing and pointless finger-pointing (how does that even work?).

I promise I will try to care enough to form an opinion today or tomorrow.

^^^scumposting^^^

oh , pooh-pooh everything's stupid. meanwhile we're still waiting on the run-down of that fucking roller coaster of emotions ns ostensibly went through earlier.

[Heartless]

p.edit......and MattP is town as hell for his entry into this game. I hereby confirm town him.

+more details on this plz

this is an open challenge to anyone townreading matt

[Heartless]

because out of the 17 other people in the game, there might be someone else townreading that entrance and i would like to hear why.

[Heartless]

because out of the 17 other people in the game, there might be someone else townreading that entrance and i would like to hear why.

That's not what I was trying to ask. Clearly you aren't townreading my entrance I want to know why

/shrug

there's really not that much there to town read. the push on RR is mediocre and i actually think the ika angle is kinda' bad.

[Heartless]

i don't know man

i'll see what tth has to say about it, but i was already scumreading the slot and nothing in the catchup compelled me to reverse that read

[Heartless]

spiffeh, your vote's not doing much on teridax. move over to performer.

[Heartless]

yeah...

the spiffeh attack isn't good either.

[Heartless]

yeah...

the spiffeh attack isn't good either.

I cared for a moment how you felt because you're my strongest townread, but whatever, you'll change your mind.

you're not doing much to help that along

after every point in Post 455 i think "so what?" because of the volume of players and the way different ppl have the spotlight at different times it's not out of the ordinary to see shifts in focus like the ones you're pointing out. it feels like you're trying to force a contradiction that's not really there.

[Heartless]

Do you think spiffeh is town?

tth does and i'm sheeping that read

[Heartless]

Everything's OK.

Spoiler:

Summary of our combined reads.
Town: BotLane, Cephrir, davesaz, HerryPanther, ika, Maxous, PeregrineV, Reasonably Rational, Spiffeh
Scum: MattP, Nobody Special, Performer

[Heartless]

How is Performer scum?

I'll repost Antihero's wall.

Spoiler:

am i just going to get another half-assed townread?

b/c if so, i'll gladly let my horses kick you in the face

what do you mean half-assed townread? wtf
Ved's obvtown to me

i didn't mean "the intensity of the read" when i said "half-assed." i meant it was for vague, craptacular, throw-away reasoning and just lazily tossed out there where it writhes impotently and uselessly

...and that's the adjective that best describes Post 310, btw

HALF

ASSED

half of it's ass and the other half is covered in shit.

you have (or at least appear to have) read the thread in some detail because you're referencing VERY SPECIFIC things people said ("Not seeing your point about a difference between “wagon and WAGON.” A wagon is a wagon.")

when it comes to MAJOR THINGS like why people have voted the bpc wagon (WHICH HAS BEEN TALKED ABOUT THREE GODDAMN TIMES AND REPEATED BY TTH FOR GOOD MEASURE), your thoughts are scattered to the fucking wind

that's because there's no thoughts to be had, and what you're actually doing is trying to find the way to best present it to where you look like you're following along and participating. you happen to be pretty bad at that.

and you're doing this instead of attempting to scumhunt.
because you're scum.

[Heartless]

I'm going to devote a separate post to MattP. Antihero has this uneasy not-town read on him but I'm straight up scum reading him even independent of the slot he inherited.

Post 420 isn't a town post, and I strongly suspect people are lazily town reading it for its length and the fact that Matt says very sensible things. But when you look beyond the individual points, the angles Matt takes are very tenuous and logic behind them is stiff. The Reasonably Rational attack just isn't strong. The first point is just a swipe at an innocuous early-game question.

Spoiler:

Ika did look like he was soft claiming neutral to me. It looked like he was testing the waters to see if he would be instantly PLd if he claimed or not.

Ika sometimes does strange things that don't make sense though, so there's really no way to tell until he gets around to telling us what he was doing there. I personally can't read ika if my life depended upon it.

I don't understand why you wouldn't have immediately brought this up if this was a concern of yours. It's weird you served this as an afterthought, only after Cephrir responded to Ika. If this was how you felt, I don't get why you wouldn't just directly confront Ika for answers about his role - he's in the game, you can ask him. The bolded portion is just especially bizarre to me. You're taking such a passive stance about your confusion of ika's alignment when there's things you easily could be doing to elucidate the situation. It looks like posturing.

This point about the timing of the ika comment is bunk and it's really just an artifact of how a conversation between

twenty

people is going to go. Of course there's going to be a lot of conversations going on that you're not directly involved in at a particular time. There's nothing particularly sinister about Reasonably Rational jumping in on another conversation. There's also nothing particularly sinister about the whole "direct engagement" issue either. The way I see it, it's more of a playstyle difference than anything.

The last two points are more addressing perceived flaws in fundamental scumhunting principles.

The subsequent attacks on BotLane and Spiffeh don't look legit. I don't fully understand the nature of the scum read on BotLane, but the little I see are snipes at little things.

Spoiler:

This is Spiffeh's voting history over 20 pages and every case he's made:

I bet Ank was chatting in his scum chat outside his hydra and that's how he slipped. Wagon pls

VOTE: BotLane

@Kthx- What do you think about Spif's suspicions?

Nervous?

In case it wasn't obvious my vote wasn't entirely serious. It became more serious after BotLane asked someone else what they thought of my push on them. This came off as self-conscious and insecure. So I'll keep my vote for now.

He voted BotLane and said the vote became legitimate at this point.

I don't like that in post 98 Peregrine ignores the relevant discussion to comment on something that is pretty much pointless.

VOTE: Peregrine

This is the only time he references a scumread on PV the entirety of the game (despite providing a reads list now)

I agree with Heartless about NS. I disliked the "confused onlooker" role he tried to take on to kind of acknowledge the situation but not commit one way about it which I find scummy. Idk if that makes sense but it does to me.

This is the only time he references a scumread on NS the entirety of the game (despite providing a reads list now)

Ok yeah

VOTE: davesaz

Btw I think RR has obvtowned at this point and the fact that they have the most votes is stupid.

Votes dave. This is the only time he references a scumread on dave the entirety of the game (despite providing a reads list now)

What are your strongest scumreads?

Performer, Teridax, maybe MonkeyMan (although someone said earlier that they expect shitposts from him?). I'm scum reading d3x head of Botlane but the Ank head seems business as usual so idk about that one.

These are Spiffeh's current scumreads. What happened to dave? What happened to Peregrine? What happened to NS? Peregrine and NS have barely provided any substance, where did those reads go? There's no story to his reads. The reads he does provide (all listed in this post) are so shallow

Anti's already pointed out a few of the weaknesses in the Spiffeh case (Post 458). I'll restate it by saying that the volume in a large game means that reads won't necessarily have a smooth, consistent feel to it. I would especially expect this to be true of players who are just kind of posting whatever's on their mind at the time, which is what Spiffeh comes off to me as. I also don't really fault Spiffeh for not narrating the blow-by-blow on reads that faded or changed.

Another thing that's really bothersome to me is Matt's political maneuvering around Antihero. The first red flag:

Spoiler:

because out of the 17 other people in the game, there might be someone else townreading that entrance and i would like to hear why.

That's not what I was trying to ask. Clearly you aren't townreading my entrance I want to know why

/shrug

there's really not that much there to town read. the push on RR is mediocre and i actually think the ika angle is kinda' bad.

I don't agree, it was weird. It's not like that's my biggest issue with the game. A lot of the opinions I had were explored prior to my entrance in the game. The things I pointed out were things people didn't mention prior to my replace in

The first time Antihero confronts him about his reasoning on the RR read, Matt just sort of pushes off of him and excuses it with "everyone already said everything else."

From what he's said about us, there's a pretty reasonable expectation he should be on our wavelength:

Spoiler:

Read the game. I had a lot of questions that Heartless would ask on spot.

yeah...

the spiffeh attack isn't good either.

I cared for a moment how you felt because you're my strongest townread, but whatever, you'll change your mind.[/quote]
He's not trying to coordinate his vote with ours to wagon a common scumread though. He also apparently has absolutely nothing to say about Performer, the person we're voting and someone who Antihero posted a case on.

tl:dr
If you're town reading Matt, you're a lazy dipshit with your "long post is good" horse blinders on if you don't actually articulate why you have the town read. We're scum reading both occupants of the slot and we're not buying what Matt's selling.

[Heartless]

I'm looking into my crystal ball and I foresee 5 pages of lengthy back-and-forth TvT arguing that disengages everyone else from the game

oh no, guess we better shut the fuck up now then.

You are excusing people for inconsistent or untimely behavior (Spiffeh, RR) by saying the game is hectic and we should expect inconsistency rather than just letting people respond on their own.

oh. we. just. ruin. everything.
hump a rump a dump a dump fud;lksajlk;asmviorajfw;lkdsj;lkajdksajfeiJLKF;JDSALKF;DSALKSAM;JSAD;LFA;OIEWF ARGH THE RAGE

they already did respond on their own. but even if they didn't, the case just sucked. people just lose interest in reads, that's how larges go. fuck, look at what happened w/ me and my bpc read in this game.

here, let's just get to the goddamn bottom of it once and for all. why would spiffeh letting go of reads scummy? just at the most basic level?

[Heartless]

yeah... i'm meaning to be rude either, but my tone will make it seem that way. that's just because i'm a rude and awful person, but there's no fixing that now.

[Heartless]

they already did respond on their own. but even if they didn't, the case just sucked. people just lose interest in reads, that's how larges go. fuck, look at what happened w/ me and my bpc read in this game.

here, let's just get to the goddamn bottom of it once and for all. why would spiffeh letting go of reads scummy? just at the most basic level?

It's more so that I don't think Spiffeh is actually THINKING this game, which goes along with his posts lacking any content and which goes along with him forgetting his prior reads. I think if he was legitimately putting thought into the game he wouldn't be having inconsistencies in his reads. Both his lack of much content and his inconsistencies make me think he is not thinking about the game, as in not putting effort into scumhunting - that is NOT what I would expect of town-Spiffeh

you think spiffeh's posts lack content...?

i don't agree with that

[Heartless]

i figured out that i can keep my fly up by using a key ring.

that was pretty significant.

oh and also we have wagons on performer and firebringer (bpc's slot).

personally, i'm waiting with bated breath for this big reveal from performer on why he voted bpc. the way he's made me wait for it, it should really tickle my funny bone.

[Heartless]

you know as well as i do that kind of meta is the worst.

[Heartless]

yeah... for a while i tried just wearing sweatpants.

people constantly mistook me for a meth dealer though so i had to stop.

[Heartless]

Everything's OK.

Spoiler:

Summary of our combined reads.
Town: BotLane, Cephrir, davesaz, HerryPanther, ika, Maxous, PeregrineV, Reasonably Rational, Spiffeh
Scum: MattP, Nobody Special, Performer

a few updates:

matt moves to town
kthnxbye moves to town
reasonably rational drops out of town
vedith moves to scum

[Heartless]

sorting limbo, more on the scum end of the spectrum

there's:
>scum reading the bpc slot to begin with
>you asked for the case on performer then once you got it you did jack shit.
>the noise:signal in what you've got so far is incredibly high

[Heartless]

The Maxous kill makes RR definitely look worse

Maxous seems especially like a scum kill based entirely off his reads.

my main thing is their stance (or lack thereof) on performer

but... yeah, that too.

[Heartless]

kthnxbye moves to town

Why?

the way he threw his weight around with pushing that performer wagon.

[Heartless]

I'm still basking in that fantastic lynch, TBH.

Also, trying to figure out who kills ika (vig or SK)

money's on vig

strangercoug loves his vigs

[Heartless]

so......

you think the scum kill failed?

what's your theory on the kills?

[Heartless]

VOTE: Teridax

And Heartless - Your read changes are garbage - just saying.

Owie

. That stings.

Is it as bad as, I don't know, your lethargic Monkeyman push was on Day 1?

You were perfectly content sitting on that static vanity wagon for the majority of Day 1, that is until the floodgates opened on the Performer wagon with Max's vote. At that point, you made sure to lay it on thick (Post 562). I did like the line about the trunks and goggles, though. That was cute. ^_^

[Heartless]

VOTE: Vedith

[Heartless]

Or what? You're going to continue taking pot shots at us?

[Heartless]

matt, ceph, i don't think your votes are going to do what you're hoping.

if you want a pressure wagon, vedith is DEFINITELY the way to go b/c while he's been here he's very much been on the sideline and being very conservative with his pushes. let's make him get out here and do some dogfighting.

[Heartless]

I actually am thinking about it and am second-guessing a vedith push right now for a reason I don't really think is productive to expand on

he's used "it's stupid to vote me" line as scum before so no,

no soft-claimy for him.

[Heartless]

ceph

matt, ceph, i don't think your votes are going to do what you're hoping.

if you want a pressure wagon, vedith is DEFINITELY the way to go b/c while he's been here he's very much been on the sideline and being very conservative with his pushes. let's make him get out here and do some dogfighting.

lickety, your vote is on no one. vote scum. vote vedith.

[Heartless]

...

is there a reason you're really self-conscious?

[Heartless]

whatever. tth can deal with you.

i probably won't be around at all tomorrow. for efficiency's sake, i'll go ahead and have the frustrating conversation i know is sure to eventually arise.

vedith

: they're pushing an easy mislynch! aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaeeeeeeeeeeyyyyyyyyy

someone else

: well... surely vedith wouldn't push a universal townread like that

me

: he didn't push shit. he's been making jabs from the shadows and sitting on his ass from the get go.

someone else

: but... scum only make easy pushes

me

: oh yeah? who's vedith voted? let's see, the stiff hard targets of... fucking monkeyman and lurkaderp mastin hydra. oh, and the dead man walking yesterday. that one too.

someone else

: but ... but... but... he softclaimed

me

:

some other dipshit

: TOWN V TOWN

me

: i fucking hate you.

vedith

: :trollface: U MAD BRO

vedith's scumbuddy

: yeah, this whole thing is stupid and wasting time. GOSH

someone else

: but...but...but.but.aubbdsa./jflksadfo;esaijf;oajf3;oijaojeo3jwo3wijf
/someone else shits their pants and then chews a scab off their big toe
/i invent a new obscenity and throw a bottle at the wall

[end scene]

tth's turn in the barrel now.
night everybody.

[Heartless]

I'm going to do this as well because I sorta feel like I am the weakest link in this game so its going to take more work for me to get anything. I'll share my thoughts on this when I'm done.

let's tie up a few loose ends mr poopybutthole:

Since Ika is dead, why kill him? IIRC, some people were saying they soft claimed 3p. This needs to be looked at to see if that person(s) would NK them.

ok.... from the time you came in you've been hyperfocused on the ika kill and ignoring the maxous kill and i'm kind of wondering why.

You're smarter than that Mastin. It was one thing when kthxbye didn't wonder who Performer was the counterwagon away from, but

you

not knowing isn't like you.

I'm not getting this. What's wrong with what mastin2 has said? Further more, how are you gunna say what someone is and is not capable of? It comes off as pretty OMGUS if you ask me.

ugh, i hate this post

one, what are you criticizing here, and two, are you insinuating omgus is a scumtell or what and if not why did you make this point?

[Heartless]

im going to restate my assertion that this catch up crap is bad.

asso inserting peoples names into posts it to make them look scummy is bad.

Since I dont know who thia head is and theyre doing that obnoxious as shit catchup-post-by-post and I may have uneesolved feelings for mastin this should be roped with extreme iritation

...

idgi

[Heartless]

lickety

Spoiler: click here

I'm going to do this as well because I sorta feel like I am the weakest link in this game so its going to take more work for me to get anything. I'll share my thoughts on this when I'm done.

let's tie up a few loose ends mr poopybutthole:

Since Ika is dead, why kill him? IIRC, some people were saying they soft claimed 3p. This needs to be looked at to see if that person(s) would NK them.

ok.... from the time you came in you've been hyperfocused on the ika kill and ignoring the maxous kill and i'm kind of wondering why.

You're smarter than that Mastin. It was one thing when kthxbye didn't wonder who Performer was the counterwagon away from, but

you

not knowing isn't like you.

I'm not getting this. What's wrong with what mastin2 has said? Further more, how are you gunna say what someone is and is not capable of? It comes off as pretty OMGUS if you ask me.

ugh, i hate this post

one, what are you criticizing here, and two, are you insinuating omgus is a scumtell or what and if not why did you make this point?

Spoiler: but don't click here

poop

[Heartless]

Who do YOU have as Scum right now?

You seem to be defending yourself quite actively right now. Is there a reason for that? Like maybe you don't want to give anyone any ideas?

You can just have this instead. As your comment is so fucking stupid...

Scum wise. I'll go with MonkeyMan, Teridax and probably someone early on my wagon trying hard for a counter.

wow, the lengths you go to just keep ducking me are absurd.

[Heartless]

nope, it's just another example of giving a veiled scumread on us.

[Heartless]

Mastin? I assume that is where my vote is on? Well, they seem more interested in asking for votes on themselves than anything else originally. It's a pretty good way to get town cred as "scum wouldn't do that".

I'm a little interested in what you're referring to here. There were several things I didn't like about the hydra's early play, but I don't recall this being one of them.

[Heartless]

I support this wagon.
VOTE: Reasonably Rational

[Heartless]

Well, I know I personally thing its usually better to flip the better player (no offense Vedith), but I like the idea of these two wagons growing simultaneously.

How are you making the determination of who's "better"?

[Heartless]

No, I meant it as a straightforward question.

For all the posts they've made this game, they've done remarkably little and they failed to back the Day 1 scum lynch. Throwing out a judgment like "better player" has to have some sort of basis and I'm curious about what that is.

Whenever you have time, I'd also like to hear about what your issues with mastin are.

[Heartless]

Where did she do that? o.O

[Heartless]

-NS didn't really do much (I got a read, but I forgot what it was), but when I look at LickedyQuickety, I just think "town". There's things here and there that vaguely support it, I suppose, but I just get this overwhelming feeling about the slot being town.

Vague support for "here and there" things constitutes "too much credit" for you?

How low is your self-esteem?

[Heartless]

I did not read mastin's "If I Did It" post. I see what you're talking about now.

[Heartless]

oh what?...

i turn my back for 2 seconds and the vedith wagon crumbles?

[Heartless]

Because we somehow should have known he was scum? Hindsight bias is awful. Using hindsight bias to try and make someone look scummy means you aren't really thinking things through ... or that you have an agenda and are scrambling for reasons to prop it up. You don't strike me as particularly stupid, so I'm going to assume you don't actually believe everyone knew yesterday that the eventual lynch was "the Day 1 scum lynch" when in nearly every large game the day one lynch ends up taking out a townie. That leaves just you starting with a conclusion and scrambling for some reason to justify it.

That's just really bad.

Granted, his entrance to the game was pretty bad, as I think Cerb pointed out, but bad entrance doesn't automatically make someone scum nor does it draw a vote from us. If we voted for everyone who made a bad post in a game, we would have to constantly move our vote around to pretty much everyone.

haha FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCK OFF

first off, you completely took that out of context of the conversation going on
second, you're just being whiny and justifying your own ineffectiveness with "eh, day 1 iz just random anywayz fjieposajfoieajfoepaijf"

[Heartless]

Clearly the scum team went and actually looked at what we did in SU, because we're being wagoned for absurdly bad reasons. On the up side, there's a really good place to look for scum candidates.

...oh awesome, so the room's filling up with egos now. that's cool.

[Heartless]

Cephrir is like the calculated sassy person you want to bring with you everywhere

you know....

i'm actually thinking max was a pr snipe

[Heartless]

Yay! now lets all talk about how this is wrong to do in a game.

it's wrong to do that in a game. especially the way you're doing it.

[Heartless]

you know....

i'm actually thinking max was a pr snipe

Why?

he fits the profile.

i think he pushed his scumreads while trying to disguise the fact that he was doing so.

i don't know, i don't think i can explain it well, but i don't know how reliable nka's going to be here and it feels like you're relying on it a lot here.

[Heartless]

LQ voted you before making post 994.

Not that that is the only reason your vote for him is terrible, but it's one.

hi ceph.

when was the last time i called you a sucker?

[Heartless]

LQ voted you before making post 994.

Not that that is the only reason your vote for him is terrible, but it's one.

hi ceph.

when was the last time i called you a sucker?

Probably last time you thought I was town, so never.

you're a sucker

[Heartless]

He's not doing anything, his vote on performer is for 'placing out because others', which is obtuse as sin when yopu could just call Performer a drama queen, and performer's only interaction with him is a late fluffball.

p sure he was talking about ns

[Heartless]

yes

[Heartless]

ask mr. i-let-anyone-into-my-pants about "burn"

he'll know what i mean

[Heartless]

i haven't been in my head for years now. that place is fucking awful.

[Heartless]

i don't know, man...

tth thinks you're scum too and she's pretty sharp.

[Heartless]

Vedith is a bad vote, and you all should be ashamed of yourself for thinking he is scum (even though I myself do it like at least once every game I play with him)

that's some pretty heavy duty white knighting for someone who was voting him earlier

[Heartless]

Heartless, you scum?

Don't answer this question, its rhetorical.

i was more driving at eliciting what makes you think vedith is town

but... yeah, weird and unwarranted threats of a scum read are cool too

[Heartless]

he said you'll lose like a VT in 610

congratulations on not knowing who you're talking to

[Heartless]

I respect your scumhunting skills, but Vedith is off the table today.

yeah... about that. the combined reads list tth posted earlier has since gone to hell in a handbasket and we need to legit sync up really soon.

[Heartless]

vedith, repost

Mastin? I assume that is where my vote is on? Well, they seem more interested in asking for votes on themselves than anything else originally. It's a pretty good way to get town cred as "scum wouldn't do that".

I'm a little interested in what you're referring to here. There were several things I didn't like about the hydra's early play, but I don't recall this being one of them.

[Heartless]

Firebringer seems town.

you're a sucker

[Heartless]

Heartless, is there dissonance there on the subject of our slot, or did you really just forget that the Vedith wagon was partially dismantled by you moving your vote from Vedith to us?

it's over a lot more than you

something before you start needling me on "hydra dissonance": i don't change tth's vote, regardless of how much i may disapprove of it. when we sync, i'll either get on board with it or we'll find a vote we both like. this is hydra'ing 101.

[Heartless]

yes, that was me bitching about the vedith wagon falling apart and tth changed the vote.
tth USUALLY writes longer posts than i do, but she always uses standard capitalization. there's a guide for ya'.

[Heartless]

Cerb takes my vote off all the time. He has no respect for me really

i have absolutely no problem admitting that tth is smarter than me so...
yeah, i don't mess with her votes.

[Heartless]

i don't know, man...

tth thinks you're scum too and she's pretty sharp.

I did

not

say that, Anti. Shows how well you listen to me.

I said I have concerns about that slot:

*

I was already scum reading the

previous occupant of the slot, Nobody Special

. His early posts struck me the same way they struck Antihero, summarized by: Post 151, Post 154, and Post 413.

*

Leaving Maxous out of the nightkill analysis

. There's a couple possible reasons for the asymmetrical nightkill analysis Lickety's been engaged in. The more generous interpretation of this is that he's simply lost on the Maxous kill and therefore ignores it. I got a similar take-away message from Post 849. There's some things wrong with this viewpoint. There've been enough people expressing a town read on Maxous so the kill is very far from untraceable. A more paranoid, and more believable, interpretation is that he's hunting for ika's killer because he already knows full well who killed Maxous and tracking down ika's killer is a lot higher priority of his. What makes this worse is that he apparently thinks there's an SK (Post 982). This leads to believe the night kill speculation is really disguised SK-hunting.

*

The way he voted Vedith the first time around

. This is in Post 756. I don't fault him for actually voting Vedith when Antihero asked him to but the accompanying explanation really freaks me out because it's so stilted. The justification feels over-explained and there's this odd favoring of the general ("universally Town read player") over the specific that leads to a weird cognitive disconnect between the reads and vote. It would've felt more natural if he said

he specifically

was town reading us. Antihero picked up on this in Post 757 and said something. Lickety's joke-y, sarcastic reaction to him in Post 756 exacerbates my concern.

*

A few scattered things here and there that didn't deserve their own bullet point

: using OMGUS as a buzzword to push a scum read (Post 738), saying he'll do a Performer reread in Post 809 and not following through, and scum reading a soft target while attaching an unnecessary qualifier (Post 867).

[Heartless]

nor do I have the right type of thought disposition to take all aspects of the game into account.

I'm going to take a whole post by itself to call bullshit on this.

Bullshit.

[Heartless]

You're saying because I said I thought something was OMGUS that that is reason to suspect me? help me out with this one.

Antihero already tried to get this out of you and you gave him an incomplete answer.

How is OMGUS alignment indicative, in general and in this instance with mastin and Reasonably Rational?

[Heartless]

nor do I have the right type of thought disposition to take all aspects of the game into account.

I'm going to take a whole post by itself to call bullshit on this.

Bullshit.

You're free to be the second on the wagon right after RR.

I'm not going to move our vote until after Antihero and I get on the same page. The antagonism isn't necessary at all.

[Heartless]

What would you like me to say? "Its not bullshit, I sincerely feel that way"?

It doesn't matter what I like, and I haven't dismissed the possibility that you just really sell yourself short.

Going into emo mode and tell me to just vote you isn't going to help me sort you.

[Heartless]

LQ is not lynchbait

[Heartless]

no

plz explain it to mse like you weould explain it to a dr unk guy

it wont be a stretch at allllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll

[Heartless]

Its easy.

MM votes RR
MM is asked about their lack of content
MM says "nothing happened" O.o
MM Gets pressured
MM has a lot to say in defence

Conclusion: Why say anything if "nothing has happened" yet?

...

what?

[Heartless]

the conclusion does not follow b/c saying things in defense isn't reliant on "things happening"

seriously youres understimating how durkn i am apparently.

hold my hand and spell EVERYTHING out in this logic chain. assume nothing.

[Heartless]

awesome this is a newbie game now

srsly whats up w the hard town read on herry? all it takes to win your undying loyalty is a well placed wk?

pshhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

[Heartless]

awesome this is a newbie game now

srsly whats up w the hard town read on herry? all it takes to win your undying loyalty is a well placed wk?

pshhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

I love newbie games!

I believe it was Herry's observation that led to performers lynch. I saw no reason for Herry to bus at that point in the game.

al;kasldfkjad;ofijawoerfasdflk

OHWHAT

DUDE SCREW YOU. YOU READ THE GAME TWO TIMES MY ASS. I MADE THE GODDAMN WALLPOST.

[Heartless]

yes lq it was that. it wasnt the ppl who ACTUALLY voted performer or posted cases.

seriously he wasnt even the first perso to call performer scum (that would ALSO be me). i dont buy it for a second. hes in your "townbloc" because he defended you from that big meaniehead twie.

[Heartless]

conversely ceph, matt, and us are in the poohpooh zone because were big doodyheads.

get over yourself.

[Heartless]

cue "youre talking to me like you know im town SCUMSLIPZORZ popkopoohfff" in 3...2...1....

im going to have to wear a wig after this game

[Heartless]

jfc

[Heartless]

ok im going to be at a comp in a couple hours this is going to be for frustrating than talking to titus

[Heartless]

I have a crazy theory that I have yet to give up on that I came up with within my first 10 games played. Care to here what it is? It goes like this: Whenever 2 or more people agree 2/3 on both voice and vote it is a strong indication that they are Scum together. I'm pretty sure this is really not something studied too much or at least I haven't seen anything documented on it and the math may be a bit barbaric, but the point is, when people agree to a certain level it only makes sense that they share much of the same knowledge as each other and this is accentuated the more knowledge they share together. Mafia most often know who most of the members of Town are and what each others roles are so they share this common bond of information that psychologically cannot be hidden to a level that cannot be detected.

have you played any game that wasn't a newbie game?

srs question

[Heartless]

I'll know your alignment soon enough.

no that's not a soft, you nerds

-Panth

Why did you feel the need to clarify that?

so scums don't figure out I'm cop and NK me. like duh, obviously.

Mastin does long-winded WIFOMy self-reflecting posts every opportunity she gets, it means nothing

ew

MM can be in my tentative Scum reads right now.

ewwwwww

Care to elaborate on these "eww's"?
I fail to see the 'grossness' especially in LQ's post, which I interpret you find more scummy because of your added w's

oh yeah, how foolish of me.
i could've just called him stupid or bad and been done with it while i chuckled to myself.

much better ceph, good work.

[Heartless]

...i have absolutely no idea how that quote got into that post...

[Heartless]

the pixies never existed when kurt cobain blew his brains out

[Heartless]

Very positive town:
Firebringer
Harry Panther

yeah...
i don't know about that

spiffeh pretty solidly town to both of us

[Heartless]

This is why I will make sure you live.

i hate you

[Heartless]

I could really go for a kermit the frog acting like a news reporter right now.

[Heartless]

you know...

i kinda' want to vote firebringer.

[Heartless]

VOTE: firebringer

[Heartless]

whoops...

looks like i've gone and done it.

[Heartless]

That's an odd vote Heartless. What for?

wild air up my ass and reasons i'm too lazy to talk about right now

ah fuck

[Heartless]

There were also a ton of sketchy votes on BPC yesterday.

such as...?

[Heartless]

You people and your pagesplosions.

Ten since my last post.
I now need to read over twenty pages, most of which will no doubt be pointless TvT drivel. (For instance, anyone vs. LQ.)

And it's late at night, and I don't really feel like doing that right now.

Just...guh. You're losing your focus, here. I've skimmed some, but mostly I can tell just from page numbers alone, you wouldn't be making this much noise if we were still focused where we

should

be, on players like Vedith.
So I'm going to go to bed tonight.
I fully expect another five to ten pages, and more votes piling up where they shouldn't be because people are going to utterly ignore this post or find it scum or what have you, point being they won't see it as a town player who is right about this whole thing, and won't respect it, and whatnot.
It'll be a pain, but I'll just trudge through them. Tomorrow. I'm going to put you back in your places. I might even step into the leadership role, for however brief a time period it may be, but I'll be there, if for no other reason than to SLAP SOME SENSE INTO THE PEOPLE WHO

SHOULD

BE DOING THIS.

*grumble, grumble, gripe gripe*

tth and i are still kind of out of sorts over here.

once we get back in sync, we'll return to our regularly scheduled programming.

[Heartless]

To everyone trying to form a counterwagon to RR...

what's up with that?

you're basing a case on associatives w/ unflipped players

what's up with that?

[Heartless]

Firebringer looks town and was the main "counter wagon" (if you can call it that) yesterday so I am comfortable adding him to my town list.

I think Firebringer has a few days of reprieve for being the counter wagon to scum.

i'm going to save everyone a lot of grief and go ahead and break it to ya'll that this is meaningless.

don't believe me? ask mr. panther punt over here from open 609. he knows.

...OR alternatively you can realize that a scum-town wagon-counterwagon dynamic is something that needs to be PROVEN not ASSUMED.

i mean fuck, i don't even think you can call it a "counter wagon" because the performer wagon took off AFTER the bpc wagon hit apex. if anything, performer was the counterwagon to bpc and scum filling the counterwagon role REALLY doesn't mean jack shit for firebringer's alignment.

now, for firebringer himself you can go back to how that performer read played out:

Peregine is Null.
Maxous town leaning.
Nobody Special isn't being helpful, don't know him kinda doubt that is from scum though.
Performer town with all the pressure on him.

he was initially townreading him for there even being a wagon (fucking lol) in the first place

he didn't stick with it long though

How is Performer scum?

How is Performer scum?

I'll repost Antihero's wall.

Spoiler:

am i just going to get another half-assed townread?

b/c if so, i'll gladly let my horses kick you in the face

what do you mean half-assed townread? wtf
Ved's obvtown to me

i didn't mean "the intensity of the read" when i said "half-assed." i meant it was for vague, craptacular, throw-away reasoning and just lazily tossed out there where it writhes impotently and uselessly

...and that's the adjective that best describes Post 310, btw

HALF

ASSED

half of it's ass and the other half is covered in shit.

you have (or at least appear to have) read the thread in some detail because you're referencing VERY SPECIFIC things people said ("Not seeing your point about a difference between “wagon and WAGON.” A wagon is a wagon.")

when it comes to MAJOR THINGS like why people have voted the bpc wagon (WHICH HAS BEEN TALKED ABOUT THREE GODDAMN TIMES AND REPEATED BY TTH FOR GOOD MEASURE), your thoughts are scattered to the fucking wind

that's because there's no thoughts to be had, and what you're actually doing is trying to find the way to best present it to where you look like you're following along and participating. you happen to be pretty bad at that.

and you're doing this instead of attempting to scumhunt.
because you're scum.

didn't hear another word about him after that, even though his wagon really picked up steam after that. this is also a place where the heartless fanboying is NOTICEABLY absent.

this isn't town who had a legit town read. there would be some sort of follow through. this is a buddy who cut his losses after he realizes performer can't be saved.

the rest of the day was p much a pointless shouting match with rr, so, yeah anyone townreading that can enlighten me.

[Heartless]

A scumteam killing ika?

oh yeah, you just reminded me.

the only way the whole "not knowing ika was dead" thing would've been a townslip is if you buy into the idea that ika was the scum kill.

which no one does afaik

[Heartless]

oh god... mastin...

we uh... we got some issues.

[Heartless]

i mean... yeah fine lq is a townread (i'm still trying to get tth happy w/ it, but it'll happen)

my vedith scumread has softened pretty considerably and i really don't have a read on herry. in fact, panther's attempts to be cute kind of ping me, but i'm still waiting for a REALLY SOLID townpost from the slot and i haven't seen it yet.

[Heartless]

There's been a lot of buzz about RR over the past few days, but having recently played a game with Drixx, I have yet to really see anything that is strongly scum-indicative here.
I'm feeling the Vedith wagon though. I dislike the way he got onto the Performer wagon in 562; the post felt a bit forced to me, like he's wrestling with the decision to bus his partner. Vedith's 606 is an odd question to ask someone you believe to be scum in twilight, and it's oddly specific. His vote on Teridax in 676 makes little sense, is never substantiated, and it seems like he's been ducking lately to avoid attention. And his back and forth with LQ on page 37 etc looks like the Vedith!scum I knew from my previous game.

On a quick reread, I also don't really like MonkeyMan. [reasons cut] But he hasn't really been all that active, so I don't feel like pushing on him right now will be very fruitful.
Getting this Vedith wagon back on track will, though.
VOTE: Vedith

:townposting:
And :goodpost: at that!

i disagree.

i mean... it's not... terrible, but it lacks that smoking-gun, a-ha! moment that really gives good cases their BANG

[Heartless]

why the fuck is everyone drinking the koolaid on panther?

idgi

[Heartless]

/ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

you're killing me, smalls

[Heartless]

why are you here?

[Heartless]

Spoiler:

Firebringer looks town and was the main "counter wagon" (if you can call it that) yesterday so I am comfortable adding him to my town list.

I think Firebringer has a few days of reprieve for being the counter wagon to scum.

i'm going to save everyone a lot of grief and go ahead and break it to ya'll that this is meaningless.

don't believe me? ask mr. panther punt over here from open 609. he knows.

...OR alternatively you can realize that a scum-town wagon-counterwagon dynamic is something that needs to be PROVEN not ASSUMED.

i mean fuck, i don't even think you can call it a "counter wagon" because the performer wagon took off AFTER the bpc wagon hit apex. if anything, performer was the counterwagon to bpc and scum filling the counterwagon role REALLY doesn't mean jack shit for firebringer's alignment.

now, for firebringer himself you can go back to how that performer read played out:

Peregine is Null.
Maxous town leaning.
Nobody Special isn't being helpful, don't know him kinda doubt that is from scum though.
Performer town with all the pressure on him.

he was initially townreading him for there even being a wagon (fucking lol) in the first place

he didn't stick with it long though

How is Performer scum?

How is Performer scum?

I'll repost Antihero's wall.

Spoiler:

am i just going to get another half-assed townread?

b/c if so, i'll gladly let my horses kick you in the face

what do you mean half-assed townread? wtf
Ved's obvtown to me

i didn't mean "the intensity of the read" when i said "half-assed." i meant it was for vague, craptacular, throw-away reasoning and just lazily tossed out there where it writhes impotently and uselessly

...and that's the adjective that best describes Post 310, btw

HALF

ASSED

half of it's ass and the other half is covered in shit.

you have (or at least appear to have) read the thread in some detail because you're referencing VERY SPECIFIC things people said ("Not seeing your point about a difference between “wagon and WAGON.” A wagon is a wagon.")

when it comes to MAJOR THINGS like why people have voted the bpc wagon (WHICH HAS BEEN TALKED ABOUT THREE GODDAMN TIMES AND REPEATED BY TTH FOR GOOD MEASURE), your thoughts are scattered to the fucking wind

that's because there's no thoughts to be had, and what you're actually doing is trying to find the way to best present it to where you look like you're following along and participating. you happen to be pretty bad at that.

and you're doing this instead of attempting to scumhunt.
because you're scum.

didn't hear another word about him after that, even though his wagon really picked up steam after that. this is also a place where the heartless fanboying is NOTICEABLY absent.

this isn't town who had a legit town read. there would be some sort of follow through. this is a buddy who cut his losses after he realizes performer can't be saved.

the rest of the day was p much a pointless shouting match with rr, so, yeah anyone townreading that can enlighten me.

mastin, if you're going to continue to pooh-pooh me, address this plz

[Heartless]

do you have any games w/ firebringer as scum, mastin?

[Heartless]

I do. He isnt scum

go away

do you have any games w/ firebringer as scum, mastin?

Admittedly no.

I just don't think you're right. I think you're chasing ghosts when you have a goldmine

right

in front of you that you were looking at but got spooked away from.

...but you're going to base your town read on one-sided meta anyway...

fucking a

[Heartless]

you know what mastin?

let's have it your way

VOTE: pisskop

[Heartless]

i'm sick of your shit. you replaced in on your own and you antagonized everybody and made a big to-do about catching up on a 30 page game. you clearly don't want to be here but that doesn't stop you from being a dick by refusing to play the game and then imposing your shit-ass attitude on everyone else.

i'm so fucking over it.

i'm done.

[Heartless]

Heartless is like;y town due to what I think I know of TTH, so I can only assume its bad play/emotions.

congratulations on not knowing who the fuck you're talking to.

[Heartless]

I can already tell this game is wearing on Anti so I am banishing him from posting in this thread for the next couple days and will be stepping in as the primary poster for the hydra.

The current gamestate looks like a little bit of a mess so I'm going to unvote while I sort through what exactly is happening here.

UNVOTE:

[Heartless]

Okay. Just want to make sure your mental accuity is akin to a Middle-Schooler's

Pisskop, I think it would be beneficial to take a moment to reflect on how you're adversely effecting the health of the gamestate. It's clearly not just Antihero you're clashing with and I think being insulting like this is only putting people off and making the group dynamic more dysfunctional.

[Heartless]

Hes welcomre to push for it, but he should know Ill fight it with ever post I have. My reasons are several games lterally 4 clicks away.

Ive modded games where he is scum, Ive been his scunmbuddy, and Ive powerlynched his scum ass as town. Are you going to argue he can change his meta 180^o in one game?

I would argue it's entirely possible.

Meta doesn't really speak to the point that Anti made about Firebringer's behavior around the Performer wagon, not that I'm a fan of building reads on meta to begin with. The whole assumption behind using meta as a basis for reads is that a player isn't cognizant of his own style and tells. I would fully expect Firebringer, as scum, would try to replicate his town meta as closely as possible especially considering that several other people on the player list have experience with him.

CAn you do a thing and answer that question that sent Anti into his tizzy?

I relooked over Heartless ISO, I was not given a question.
Just alot of questioning everyone else about me and Heartless calling me scum.

You know, the standard stuff.

You could offer an explanation for why you didn't pursue a defense on a professed town read who was being aggressively wagoned.
While you're at it an explanation on the the reversal of the Vedith read would be nice. In retrospect it looks a little random to me.

[Heartless]

Now on the whole I didn't defend, I honestly saw performer as town more because the pressure on him felt like it was being done by scum scapegoat. It was circumstances around him.

I'd be more inclined to believe this if you were scum reading anyone from the Performer wagon at the time.

Vedith, because this feels like normal town vedith for me. His belief that I am scum gives me more belief he is town. We often scum read each other and I will agree some things he has done has batted my eye, but right now he is town. It wasn't random.

I guess what I'm more trying to get at is when the lightbulb moment was for you. I don't think Vedith's cheekiness would be hard to fake as scum, so is it something else?

[Heartless]

Heartless, I am pretty sure you are just going to tunnel me for next several pages.

All I can say is I am pretty sure you are town and your poking the wrong place.

I'm not tunneling and I have no intention to tunnel. I'm following up on Anti's points.
Next, I intend to look at what's going on with everyone in the game and where my vote's going.

[Heartless]

I have sudden niggling doubts about Heartless and i think I could support a hairytiger pressure tomorrow

Why?

[Heartless]

no pressure. hows that definitive and complete iso of everyone going?

@Heartless

Who said I was isoing anyone?

Really at this point I'm going to take inventory of mine and Anti's town reads and see what the highest probability scum read is. This is going to have to wait until this evening since I have other things to do until then. Breathing down my neck is not going to make me do it quicker.

[Heartless]

Thats a fair chunck of what I expect from them as town, at least some of the time.

Our town win rate is 75%.

What's yours?

[Heartless]

You can't complain about relevance if you mouth off.

To insinuate we don't do anything as town is insulting and outrageously false. Nor is it accurate to what's happened in this game.

[Heartless]

You're spending a lot of time trying to discredit our reads.

I'm starting to think it's a scum tactic.

[Heartless]

Like omgus er'eone! PK says he has a different conception of my playstyle than I do! Totes he scums, let me not deliver what I promised to try to bullrush it.

Where did I say I was bullrushing something and what exactly did I promise that I didn't deliver on?

Let's get one thing straight, my schedule does not revolve around this game. I have classes to go to and research to do and it pays just a little better than what I get from playing this game. If I stop in on and off throughout the day to comment on little things, it's because I don't have time to gather thoughts and write a wallpost.

[Heartless]

Why would the BP respond to a backup-BP claim by saying

That was a pretty awful claim.

That's ridiculous

I could have sworn I remembered Performer claimed one-shot. Am I misremembering that?

[Heartless]

You're spending more time trying to fight off what is essentially a self-note than just doing your own thing.

Do I look like someone who needs a defense?

Spoiler alert: you're not one of our town reads. I'm trying to figure out if your read has any basis or you're trying to fake paranoia and you've responded by furiously trying to change the subject and minimize what you said. If it were really a self-note, you wouldn't have bothered to say it in the game thread.

I like RR's claim and it's certainly testable if there's a vig. I think it's a suboptimal lynch.

[Heartless]

I'm the Backup 1-shot Bulletproof.

Yup.

If RR's claiming full bulletproof, it's understandable that a one-shot modifier claim would very out of place.

[Heartless]

I like RR's claim and it's certainly testable if there's a vig. I think it's a suboptimal lynch.

Can you restate this please. Because the way you state is here is highly scummy.

I believe RR's claim and I think they're town.

VOTE: Vedith

[Heartless]

Our collective town read list now includes:
Cephrir, davesaz, Kthxbye, LicketyQuickety, mastin2, MattP, Reasonably Rational, Spiffeh, TheWayItEnds

Leaving everyone else in the muddled mess:
BotLane, HerryPanther, Firebringer, MonkeyMan576, PeregrineV, pisskop, Vedith

Botlane and Monkeyman are on the town side of the middle.
As much as Antihero's fussing about the HerryPanther town reads, I think Post 316, Post 317, and Post 318 would be a weird scum-scum interaction. The Vedith case might not have "BANG" due to herr's presentation of it but it makes enough sense. HerryPanther's on the town side of the middle for me.

[Heartless]

hey guys

someone is still a dirty rotten scumbag
i'll give you a hint. his name starts with "fire" and ends with "bringer"

plz tell me if you give up and want me to tell you who it is. i bet you'll never guess.

[Heartless]

Town vig and vengeful townie plus

1. Town BP
2. Scum BP

???
Which seems more likely?

@pisskop- are you voting RR?

Would also a accept Mastin lynch and probably Panther lynch.

vengeful + scum bp = ewwwwwwwwwwwwww grooooooooooossssssssssssss

[Heartless]

It looks like LQ was just caught in a slip and has nothing to say in defense

huh?

[Heartless]

I think Post 316, Post 317, and Post 318 would be a weird scum-scum interaction.

ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

not that weird.

[Heartless]

hey

hey peregrine

VOTE: herrypanther