Tarot uPick II - GAME OVER

[Aj The Epic]

VOTE: Vedith

[Aj The Epic]

I have nothing to add... However, notscience may be around to add something (Was posting yesterday).

[Aj The Epic]

Can we wait a day to see if notty shows?

[Aj The Epic]

It's been a day. Do you want to send this to night now?

[Aj The Epic]

Alright.

VOTE: Night

[Aj The Epic]

I have an innocent result on Perpetual Nonsense.

[Aj The Epic]

I'm 90% certain it's Notty and not Kami. Kami's got investigative roles, finds a miller who refused to out and claims RC miller over outright scum. There's very little scum motivation for a mafia rc/investigative joat to come out and claim anything but 'guilty' there.

[Aj The Epic]

It does take 3 to get a lynch, so scum can't hammer out unless consensus of town votes.

[Aj The Epic]

Bert, you still around?

[Aj The Epic]

VOTE: NotScience

I just don't see the scenario where Kami is scum and me doubting prior day reads is a good way to lose.

[Aj The Epic]

kagami makes a good point. she would coach people to be not dumb/useless

i'm now leaning more toward a "everyone gets along happily" ending
and if we die, then at worst the other 3 have to figure out the day.

Here's the issue: If scum wants to, they can send a lylo with Kami/NS/Myself for basically no cost unless you can block a kill on yourself. Personally, I'd like the chance to win this but the advantage today is there MUST be a town majority in the vote on any lynch achieved (at least 2 of three town will be on the lynch).

If we plan on No-lynching, scum has the choice to choose if they have an advantageous position to nk and take this happily ever after option (it's in their hands) or send a 3 person lylo without you. That's not really a fantastic situation for the town.

[Aj The Epic]

If you're so sure I'm scum I don't see why waiting a day matters

But sure, whatever you say

For one, being able to win the game is kinda important. Don't forget scum have a 'no one wins' button tonight if there's no lynch.

[Aj The Epic]

This game started 5 months ago. I think we all lose if this ends in a draw.

[Aj The Epic]

VOTE: NotScience

I just don't see the scenario where Kami is scum and me doubting prior day reads is a good way to lose.

Why don't you see a scenario where Kami is scum?

I've explained this multiple times. What benefit did Kami gain by keeping me alive d3? Do you think that slot has planned almost 6 days down the road to predict they could use my benefit in some sort of mylo/lylo situation? Otherwise, why not just take the kill?

[Aj The Epic]

Either way, their claim is perfectly well known to be accurate...

And investigative cop roles on mafia are very rare, unless someone else would throw in suspicion of a mafia role cop for whatever reason.

Pre-edit: My worry about that is that given a stump on either side, you can't reasonably reincarnate scum and giving it to anyone but the 'most town' would be strange. You can make an argument for it not being dropped on Tammy but this was N1 dropped wasn't it? I thought that Tammy/Fluff had suspicions somewhere in there.

[Aj The Epic]

I'm also praying pretty hard that "they could have lynched me" isn't the only reason you're voting this early; we've been playing this game for 5 months, the FINAL DECISION deserves a little more time than two days or so.

I'll not lie that it's a major factor contributing to it but even if we look at other stuff, such as NS' presence this game vs Kami's, their vote records and such, Kami has played a more-town game. Helping you lead the Brantz wagon, voting idiocy even after the lover claim, being on Pisskop (although both wagons were technically correct). All the earlier game decisions until the town faltered (around Kling/Bcade time) was made with a town motive. I don't think you go that long playing town and THEN try to solo out a win. Are there flaws here? Yeah. If I wanted to go over a 6k post game and show town motivation, though, I think I'd find more from Kami.

Looking at Fluff, who sits on Kuroko after the wagon dissipates, Ika and Konowa, jumps on Brantz when it's an obvious lynch, there's much less town motivation there. To me, NS took more of a sheeping approach to the game after that day and just relied on others to make the decisions for him. We've had way a lot of time with Kami leading to see where their stance lies and I think the main holding argument against them is "Lololol they're still alive in mylo". I don't want to let myself vote on that logic, either.

And it's not like this is a 2-day decision: I've had it in my mind that the final scum was PN or Fluff for a while. To think that, I've obviously been entertaining the idea that there's an elaborate ruse going on by NS to keep you around, which makes sense if the plan was to sheep your reads the majority of the game.

I don't have an explanation for the role cop outside of "maybe it's a town standing thing". Then again, "Choosing town cred over a scum RC is a pretty acceptable call" (rough paraphrase). Did scum have roles that were going to be caught out by an RC? Probably not because they all got lynched almost immediately after fakeclaiming and the RC came through too quick for them to worry about it.

To me, the body of work this game by kami is much more town than Fluff's.

[Aj The Epic]

I don't get that last part. "Meta damage by lynching me"?

[Aj The Epic]

If that really were the case, you could point to the fact that I played like complete shit and still made it to lylo.

[Aj The Epic]

Every single interaction I've had with every scum in this game has been them being indignant that I'm scumreading them and them trying to defend themselves. In the Water hood especially so.

Can you quote any of the non-Brantz interactions?
The Water hood is meaningless to me; I don't have access to it.

Spoiler:

I believe the claim.

Why are you voting him then

Why are you voting him then

Is Town ascetic-izer a strong role? No. It's a terrible role, that, if compulsive, could even be considered negative utility.

So why do you put an elemental restriction on it?

On the other hand, it's a very powerful scum role. It eliminates the need for a ninja, and prevents suspicious scum from getting copped.

It especially makes sense if there are no other Water element scum.

then hy would I claim at all?

you know, I dont even care. Youre looking for a reason to ream me.

Whatever. Talking sense into you is like talking to a wall.

Youre clearly eager to lead us down this road. I hope you like where it takes us.

Ive stopped caring. GL.

Whatever. Talking sense into you is like talking to a wall.

I've tried to engage you several times both here and in the neighborhood. You've ignored everything I've asked, mostly by responding in complete non-sequiturs.

You guys should see the turd sandwich that is the water hood. Ive seen toddlers with more cohesion and less reach than that

omg thats so cute. >.< Tell everybody about how I slipped about how I had elements instead of backing klingon up.

I already explained that you didnt realize that only a few had the warning about it.
Besides that's not the reason for the scumread, i never said it was, i was more disagreeing with Kling saying you were town for outing you having that discrepancy too.

reach for the skies

Cuz thats what youre doing. You tried to convince the hood to vote me for shit reasons.

but hey, at least youre trying, unlike wof and mastin.

err kagigami

vote: kagigami

whats happening in the hood is you're all trying to powwow a lynch on me,

refusing to give people other than me a case on me

, and being all butthurt that I called you out here.

I don't know if it happened with Wisdom/Idiocy... but Wisdom was probably trying to throw more people off once it became clear the town was taking a 2-for-1 on them. Obviously this isn't the entire page or two worth of posting, but it's good reference for when it starts.

[Aj The Epic]

Probably was apparent that Kami was never going to support him. In the water hood and in the thread, it was very obvious that Kami had no intentions of really letting him get out of attention and once they decided to lay a vote down, there was no chance for kami's support.

[Aj The Epic]

They felt enough pressure to claim... A fake claim at L-5?

At first I thought you were going to imply a distancing tactic by pisskop/kami but you saying Pisskop 'wasn't likely to get lynched' implies you believe that vote came through for other reasons. Care to enlighten me?

[Aj The Epic]

1. If he votes for a higher wagon at that point, he's 'saving his own ass'.
2. Kami is refusing to throw him a bone and seems convinced he's scum
3. He IS at that point basically slated to be lynched (5 people on him, next largest wagon is ika with 2).

Obviously, he needs to gain town points as fast as he can to impede the momentum hitting his wagon. Town has been on a hot streak (though I guess we don't know it quite yet, but he does) and with a brantz lynch d1 into a scum dropping D2, Scum is getting rolled with a pisskop lynch. For the same reason that people can be seen as town for taking on 'prob town' with well structured arguments (though he kinda missed the last part), he's probably hoping that going after Kami would give him a chance at surviving if he can make a good case or throw suspicion that way.

[Aj The Epic]

Any asymptotic thoughts?

[Aj The Epic]

Really hasn't worked that well apparently.

[Aj The Epic]

I'm caught up because I don't think AJ's tunneling comes from a legitimate place but I also don't believe you believe this push

My tunnel doesn't come from a legitimate place? There's only two people it could be and I don't believe that Kami is scum. This isn't rocket science.

[Aj The Epic]

This is getting really bad.

[Aj The Epic]

Guess it's not the most productive place to start with, but any thoughts you want to share?

[Aj The Epic]

Why when you're going to call Kami scum do you take a side route to throw shade at the series of events that took place from my slot, Notscience? It's not fluid with the rest of your train of thought.

[Aj The Epic]

I'll realize your train of thought isn't good? What?

[Aj The Epic]

I'm back from Christmas. Be here for more later.

[Aj The Epic]

UNVOTE:

I don't get you and notty. You spend an entire post talking about why the other is scum and then as a sidenote go "Oh well Aj could be, too" but never address it. I know Kamigami is playing the "Oh well scum miller impossible thus I'm not voting him" but this isn't enough of an excuse then to still consider it and be willing to needlessly throw the entire game over that insecurity. Say all you want about a precedence it would set if it occurred, but you're telling me you're willing to lose a game over that?

[Aj The Epic]

Yes, I'm willing to lose for that, but I don't think that's the case anyway.

If you don't believe it is the case, why keep mentioning it? If you think there's a possibility, why not give it some actual thought? This middle ground of suggesting it's there but doing nothing to address it is not proper.

[Aj The Epic]

I think Bins has been gone for a while.

[Aj The Epic]

What are your thoughts right now, AJ?

Kami's push for a no-lynch now doesn't make sense for town, considering their prior position. I don't believe that FG wants this ending in a draw under any circumstance. Especially because it assumes "no lynch means game ends happily ever after". The scenario here for kami!scum would be no-lynch, kill PN, claim wifom on Notty and rely on my ties to believing Kami!town over Notscience to endgame where PN can't stop the lynch. In 3-man lylo, it already would have occurred earlier.

The only question is then why no-kill into today in the first place. Avoiding possible wifom scenarios, is there a reason this occurs? They don't know I get cop, but they did suggest that I postured like I had a cop shot waiting. If they suspected a cop-shot, the chances of them winning with a kill is 50/50 considering I'd obviously cop one of notty/pn. But if they don't figure this, I don't see any benefit to take a no-kill. They'd be better off taking a 3-person Lylo unless they suspect I won't vote with them.

I'm toying with the thought that this point for a NK is just a way to eliminate PN who's blocking their current path to victory (NS lynch).

[Aj The Epic]

VOTE: Kamigami

[Aj The Epic]

It's not over, you're at L-1.

[Aj The Epic]

A.) The positional change to not wanting a clear victory doesn't fit anything FG said earlier.
B.) The actions you described you would take do not add up. There's no way you throw away my support in any situation.

[Aj The Epic]

So I'm playing under context of a hammer since I knew notty voted but it wasn't recorded. Already messaged about it, though realistically I should've played it safer. Was worried PN would unvote though.

In the HEA scenario? No, actually. Had you taken it at face value, it actually indicated I was scum if it hadn't been policy.

[Aj The Epic]

I mean, Notty hadn't posted in 37 days on Fluff so I feel a bit robbed. At the same time, winning this game had me conflicted in many ways.

[Aj The Epic]

VOTE: Aj The Epic

No reason to delay this now.

[Aj The Epic]

But yeah, I saw 2 votes and figured that if PN could be persuaded off of Kami, that was basically the end for me. I spent a lot of time trying to maneuver these last few days into a situation where I had a chance to win and think it worked fairly well, considering we had two scum left with only one towny ever being lynched (lover of Wisdom) when I started this crusade.

Echo's objective when he left was for me to get one townie lynch so you guys couldn't have a perfect game.

Pre-edit: I actually discussed the scum miller to myself in the PT after plot died. Yeah, the odds of that specific scenario being played out was very low and incredibly powerful. But it was because I misplayed so hard that it worked. At the same time that Scum Miller or GF are somewhat unbalancing, from our perspective so is a cop... I think that if a scum miller was more common, it would invalidate investigative consistency of a role cop, but the same risk is always in place with godfathers.

[Aj The Epic]

The wager percentages where all the same. The only difference was my cop wager was actually a time machine (Leave the town for a day and night phase). I had been rolling for it and never got it. It didn't matter late into the game since I couldn't use it without basically a suicide (no scum left, by definition a town win) but it would've been super helpful to have in my back pocket earlier. And I seriously never rolled a single item, though I did try for both a watcher and mod message once.

[Aj The Epic]

Technically, I think just because of my role, town and scum had equal-ish power. Almost all of our roles had some insane negative utility. Wiz a lover and his role element-afflicted. Echo's had a 2 shot cop and a movie vendor. Pisskop had a strongman (1) and something else. Idk what brantz had. Traitor (who I, d1, thought was aneninen and that's why I pushed that so hard) and gambler. Town had a vig so we did have some counter to it but obviously never saw it used.

Pre-edit: Actually, if the consent is given to release the scum PT, Wiz/Echo were begging me to claim Miller. It was my first scum game back and I was incredibly confident that would just result in me getting killed since I play horridly in large games.

[Aj The Epic]

Did you actively have me as scum? I think you might've before the RC but after I never felt any threat of being voted from you.

[Aj The Epic]

Yeah but I wasn't surprised at being scum read early due to the fact that every large game I've ever played, I've been scum read early. It was actually addressed to sakura but hey

[Aj The Epic]

Well, I guess they'll get him if he straight up claims scum

Fuck. Me.

[Aj The Epic]

On the no-kill nights, I understand I was giving my team hell with it. However, I think my decision was correct (even though fucking vote counts... Btw: I read the vote count first before hammering, but read it backwards. Kami was voting for notscience, not the other way around... I also knew notty hadn't unvoted).

Kami was, even having me as scum, the most for-sure help I had. Notty was the one I had always planned on incriminating and PN... I gave up a long time ago actually trying to mislynch them because apathy and because there really wasn't anything for it. The advantage, as I spelled out, of a lylo situation is less voices. However, Nacho was in this game and I felt his read/grasp of the game was such that he wouldn't take Notty out in any situation and I couldn't afford to kill Notty. So with the town having three town voices in minimum, I felt I held no advantage in a lylo situation over a mylo one. Remember that in both situations for the correct lynch to be achieved, all town must be in consensus. And I banked so hard on Kami not wanting me lynched. However, you can't take Kami to lylo. Just stupid because then I have to kill PN? It didn't make sense. PN/Notty didn't

feel

like they could be baited into believing the miller claim, which I understood was my wincon in staying active.

Had Nacho not been alive, I would've probably taken PN and notty to lylo. In that hypothetical, Nacho no longer has the staunch voiced support for Notscience and maybe I can work with PN. But the other thing was, a town consensus seemed so unlikely (and probably was). Therefore, playing the odds on the larger consensus was my final decision. The innocent read was completely needed to assure it didn't go to night because I wasn't going to allow this game to go HEA in any situation (was the reason I was able to make a second NK knowing I had full control of that). And I didn't think I could justify ME staying alive over a third NK when I was 'rolling for cop'. Therefore, if we went to another Night, PN died and I had reason not to. Only later did I have any inkling that I could play for another night when Kami started talking about wanting a HEA scenario. I really decided though that kami was eventually going to wisen up and thought I had the hammer vote on them.

Only note is next time I hope we make a note a little less than a month in that one player isn't counted in voting unless they're on their original hydra. I figured NotScience was the account we were using.

[Aj The Epic]

Also I didn't really want to make a case because that would've lead back to my shitty play in the early days. Kinda just had to accept the needling.

[Aj The Epic]

Muffin what prompted your posting style anyways? I mean, as soon as Echo saw it was you, you kinda became the insta-kill he needed but I think you'd have done more damage had you played normally.

[Aj The Epic]

Also if it is needed, I give my consent for the scum PT to be revealed. Echo was against it for reasons of people would know who he was but that's kinda null/void now.

[Aj The Epic]

I too prefer not being overwhelmed in large games and have yet to figure out how to avoid such. Then again, in 1 day you had half the posts that I did in the entire game.

I just don't get large games. There's too much shit going on and I can never really be comfortable in them. Generally leads to me being lynched d1/d2. Before this game, I'd never been passed d4 in a large.

[Aj The Epic]

Have you thought of perhaps you personally drawing tarrot cards for each player and devising a role off of that card draw?