Cyberpunk Mafia [Game Over!]

[Tammy]

Hi!

VOTE: Brian Skies

[Tammy]

I protest! You must sign. I always sign in my hydras because it's just PROPER!

How do you expect people to read you otherwise???

[Tammy]

With the exception of Titus's last big ass post, I'm all caught up. I guess I'll read that later, but those kinds of cases make me glaze.

Titus - what makes ds' showmanship Amy different than machine mafia?

Diamond sentinel - you. I got not remember me, but I am one half of imperium from machina mafia. If you are town here, I'm going to need you to step back and calm down. The way you're approaching the game isn't doing yourself or the game any favors and you're making the game a little hard to read because I'm getting small inklings you're town but your push and approach is just inviting a wagon and it's harder to decipher if scum are pushing you because of your approach.

I will tell you this, and I'm not sure why anyone else hasn't pointed it out, but those 100% scum tells you're claiming are absolutely not scum tells. They're both null tells. I get you de played a game or two, but that is not enough to meta. I've played with dgb for a few years now and scum or town, she quite often posts reads lists just like that. Her activity isn't completely alignment indicative either, especially when the game has just started.

Please just stop. Unless you're scum, then by all means carry on.

I'm going to go play pool and drink some beer actual content later.

[Tammy]

Okay so beer and tiredness don't actually make for good mafia posts. I've been staring at the screen trying to collect my thoughts and it's all like Ferris Bueller in there. Probably has something to do with the fact that I read the game between classes today too. Also because I don't know a good number of you guys and one of my starting points for reads is how people are reading the game, and right now I'm just kinda scratching my head a bit here.

Super early game is not my forte but I usually have a handful of town reads I feel pretty decent here and right now I'm squinting at the majority of the game, so that's a big ol sad face. I do like Varsoon a decent amount though; that's probably in part due to the claim though, so tentative. Some tonal things I liked about beeboy, though I wasn't a fan of his early play. Leaning towards liking Brian Skies. That's about it a big pile of nothing not worth writing home about or even really making post about ha!

I have a few things to say about ds/dgb, but I'm holding on to that to see if he responds to me or what he does next, so that will wait.

Titus - I know you don't like to meta but I know that you do meta behaviors? (I'm tired finding it hard to word properly, you should have heard my lectures today.) Anyway, the major thing that I remembered from machina about diamond sentinel is that sort of showy/cockiness and you had him as a pretty strong town read in that game even though iirc he garnered a bunch of suspicion. Since you guys have played together several times it surprised me that you included that as part of your reasoning for scum reading him. I'll look back at machina though. I didn't really start getting into that game until day two.

Eh, I was going to go back and read some iso's but I'm super tired and I have a 14 hour day tomorrow, so I'm going to sleep. Sorry for being a big pile of mush!

Oh wait, I don't really get the town reads on r&l or drixx. Kind of a reminder to myself to read back through them and figure out why I was concerned there.

[Tammy]

I'm drunk!

Also I've been drinking nd I need to go to sleep.

The people I think I like right now: Varsoon, Anxiety, Maxous, Diamound Sentinel. (I'm trying to decide how much to tell you why I like DS right now, and I probably will later.)

People I'm most suspicious of right now: Drixx, Yosarion2, SnarkySnowman

I agree with Varsoon that the snowman wagon is the tits so

VOTE: snarky snowman

dwlee is also weird but he's allspice 14 or something so I mean who goes oh I think someone is scum because they're scum reading someone I think is really strong town for like reallyweak ass reasons/ I mean what?

Anyway, when I get homeroom my skating lesson in the morning I'll talk about my reads, so see you then!

[Tammy]

That's why I wasn't inclined to give flavor. I don't think it'd save me, and it used up a trump card in a hopeless situation.

Okay not gonna wait, this is one of the many I think point more to an actual town role. He thinks his flavor is a trump card. The mafia are provided with flavor claims, yes, but this still feels real.

And this is why those of you who are all oh he was preparing a fake claim but that didn't pan out so he went vt but didn't do flavor oh look caught boy don't make sense.

Mafia are given fake claims, so there's no preparing there. I also don't think he sounded like he was preparing a pr claim that fizzled.

What I do think is that those that are hanging on to that scum read are doing so because it's easy. The only one I really understand is DGB because holy shit was the case against her bad, so I can see her thinking it was a scum case.

Yosarion feels like he's phoning in the scum read. Like "oh look guys here's this textbook scum doing all this textbook scum stuff" in a monotone voice with absolutely no insight whatsoever. Actually that's what's bothering me the most about Yosarion. and in part it might be unfair. I've never played with him, I don't think, but I have this idea of him due to his seniority around here that he'd be a bit more insightful when he feels like he's just phoning it in. And has he really never heard of scum theater before? If I look and find he's played with mollie, my vote is going on him and never moving off, and regardless seriously you can't deduce the term scum theater? (That's when two scum go at each other for theater's sake btw...you know theatrical distancing? I think you know this though. I think you're trying to sound busy.)

Okay I think I'mgoingto goto sleep. See you after practice tomorrow and I'll try to make this make more sense!

[Tammy]

okay so apparently there's no way to search who's played with whom. Yosarion have you never played with mollie?

[Tammy]

3. The mafia is provided with flavor claims.

[Tammy]

Tammy is town.

Tammy is one of the players I respect the most in terms of ability, don't underestimate her.

As much as I appreciate the compliment has either of you ever seen me as scum?

[Tammy]

There's a part of me that wants to lynch diamond sentinel because he is unpleasant and he's a bit full of it and doesn't listen to other people and he hammered town early one day in machina mafia just because he was tired of the game and thought he was leaving the site so why not apparently, so in part I don't trust him on my team. Also, his flip would really help me sort out some of my reads because if I'm wrong on him being town then maybe some of the people I'm looking at cross-eyed are actually town and I can figure that out and if he's town like I think he is I can maybe figure out who was going for the easy ride.

But gosh does his attitude sound like town here. Cocky, unpleasant, not making a whole lot of sense in some ways, but town.

Also, those reading him as scum because he's a hypocrite or making bad push should probably read more mafia games or something. You're not scum because you're a hypocrite or making a bad push. IF it were that easy town wouldn't lose as often as it does.

[Tammy]

But I'd rather lynch scum is what that should say.

I really need to go to sleep now though!

[Tammy]

the push is terrible you're right. Evyerone is right there. I'm just this is the guy who in machina mafia declared that lld was confirmed town to him because scum had him in her top town reads because no scum would do that. when I pointed out why he was wrong he proclaimed that she wasn't even the previous night kill's scum read and he'd been studying the night kill because it meant something. When I pointed out that he in fact was completely wrong and that in the very last reads list that the n1 night kill had had her as his biggest scum read, he completed ignored it because it just didn't fit with what he wanted to project on the game.

Like he actually had the nerve after that to proclaim he was the only one who knew what was going on. In this game he actually acts proud of being a VI while getting annoyed at nt being listened to.

It's why I won't be sad if he's gone. Unfortunately I think he's town, a town mess, but town. While I think there's a better chance for scum elsewhere I won't vote for him but I'll shed no tears if he goes.

And with that, I"m passing out.

pedit: to brain

[Tammy]

I am in an extremely crappy mood. Apologies ahead of time if I'm bitchy.

[Tammy]

Okay that made me laugh. I'll not suspect Varsoon for several days at the very least

[Tammy]

Actually that's what's bothering me the most about Yosarion. and in part it might be unfair. I've never played with him, I don't think, but I have this idea of him due to his seniority around here that he'd be a bit more insightful when he feels like he's just phoning it in. And has he really never heard of scum theater before? If I look and find he's played with mollie, my vote is going on him and never moving off, and regardless seriously you can't deduce the term scum theater? (That's when two scum go at each other for theater's sake btw...you know theatrical distancing? I think you know this though. I think you're trying to sound busy.)

It wasn't that I "didn't know what he meant". It was that the suggestion seemed obviously absurd in this context, to such a degree that I found it scummy. And when I tried to question catdog about it snd tried to get them to explain their badgirls vote, they basically just refused to answer the question.

You accuse me of "phoning it in", but I am not, at all. In fact I'm pretty sure that I personally have already caught 2 scum. I do not think that either DS or catdog is going to flip town at this point.

Tammy's attack there was really weird. I explained in some detail wht catdog's theory of "scum theatre" makes no sense, and Tammy accuses me of not being able to figure out what the words meant? What the heck is that?

But isn't that exactly what scum theater is? Two people going after each other or having a reaction in such an awkward/staged way that it looks like theater?

And really is that what you're going to get after me for? I say we haven't played together and that you're not living to some preconceived notion of how I think you would be playing, with no meta evidence whatsoever, and note that my suspicion of you might be unfair due to that, and what you bristle at is something that objectively really could only be something of a misinterpretation, misremembering or misunderstanding of what you meant?

[Tammy]

But gosh does his attitude sound like town here. Cocky, unpleasant, not making a whole lot of sense in some ways, but town.

Last game I gave DS a free ride for most of day 1 for exactally that same reason. Turned out he was the SK. Not falling for that again.

He was also the same in machina mafia as town. The way that he's mocking people about his flip sounds like town not like scum pretending they have a town role. There's also the him thinking he had a trump card with his vt flavor thing that I'd be really surprised if it came from scum.

[Tammy]

I'm not liking DGB recently. They seemed really committed to the diamondsentinel lynch but then they just start voting someone who is (at least) claiming to be catching up. I don't understand their want to vote a lurker instead of a top scum read.
VOTE: Goofball

You have too many posts to be making a post like this.

[Tammy]

Tammy you threw me in the suspicious pile but I didn't see any reasoning. Penny for your thoughts?

Nothing concrete yet. I get a consultant vibe from your posts. I wouldn't wagon you over it, but it does make me look at you a little more closely.

[Tammy]

Tammy, Read me. I haven't sorted you yet fully but I am leaning town on you. I feel we absolutely disagree with each other on DS but I see you're accounting for my thoughts which is something. I think for now, we're going to agree to disagree on DS. If you town read our slot, I am going to need clear instructions on how to work with you because I don't know your definition yet. I know I probably should but I am slower on the social uptake which is why I hate D1.

Why no read on Dwlee and beeboy? Saying Dwlee is young and wierd isn't really a read. Those two were major wagons there.


Good

Ha. Okay that was a mouth full

I think the best way that I can explain what I mean is by pointing you to mafiaception as I think as a whole town did really well at working together in the way that I mean. But I think games like that come along so rarely when there's just some kismet of trust that people are willing to listen to someone else and balance their own reads that way.

I think town (people) work together best when they listen to each other and bounce ideas off of each other. I'm not expecting for people to change their reads just because I say someone is a different alignment than you think, but I do want to be listened to. What frustrated me in machina was when Nacho and I gave some very good reasons why snowman and yakko were town, according to the gamestate and their behaviors, and it got discounted as coaching or wifom. It was also likewise frustrating to narrate why we both, especially nacho, felt good enough to read Bork (Random Encounter) and get ignored.

If I am arguing pretty solidly for why someone is scum or town, I want to be listened to. You've probably played with me enough to know that me making a solid read means something and it means that I've already weighed and deliberated. (One of my biggest weaknesses in mafia is that I have a tendency to subordinate my read to someone else who sounds more sure than I feel, so if I'm bucking everyone else and giving a solid read, that's something to come from me.) I have no problem with someone pointing out what points are weak, but I don't like being wholly dismissed like how we were in machina. Hell Nacho's pointed out in lots of games why my cases or reads are weak or faulty and though yeah it's frustrating when I'm not being dismissed I'm more likely to listen and reassess then decide where to go.

I'll account for people's thoughts and experiences and I want the same in return. Doesn't mean we'll always end up on the same side of the lynch, but if people can account for each other's strengths and weaknesses, it can go a long way.

Does that help?

I had beeboy as an early leaning town read (just wasn't on my mind during my tipsy catchup) and I have no idea what to do with dwlee. He is weird and makes no sense, but he is also young, so I'm just not sure and I keep forgetting that he's playing until I see him post.

(Also, I don't generally pay attention to wagons because wagons and votes don't really register with me unless that's been a focus and my focus. It's just not what I look at early in the game unless it's someone that I absolutely hate the votes on.)

[Tammy]

But isn't that exactly what scum theater is? Two people going after each other or having a reaction in such an awkward/staged way that it looks like theater?

I made it quite clear that I understood that that was what they were accusing Badgirls of, why I thought that theory made no sense, and why it and was a really bad reason for Catdog's vote.

I really dislike that post. He sees person A attack person B, sees person B get pissed and lash out at person A, and then just calls that "scum theatre"? Just seems like a weird and bizzare conclusion to leap to.

The rest of Catdog's voting history isn't great, either. Joined the mindless page 1 banwagon, which is meh. Jumped from badgirls to DS briefly, which, ok, but IMHO it just draws attention to how bad the badgirls vote was in the first place (I guess this was still based on that weird theory that Badgirls and DS are somehow scum together? Or something?) Then bails on that wagon very quickly to vote Dwlee99 instead, for weak to no reasons. Pushes the Dwlee wagon hard for a while, mostly just with repetition. Calls DS scum again, but keeps his vote on Dwlee instead.

Catdog's posts just feel off. I mean, not as far off as DS's posts, but still off.

So if you actually read that post, your "Yos is pretending to not understand what the words scum theatre mean" statement was just bizzare.

Although looking at my post history, though, I do see why you got confused. I did later ask CatDog "what does scum theatre mean". That's not because I couldn't figure out what they meant, it was because I was trying to get them to actually spell out and say "I thought BadGirls was scum with DS" if that was in fact what they thought. And then rather then explain themselves, they pretty much just dodged the question, which I didn't like.

But ok, if you just skimmed my posts and didn't really read them in context, I can see why you might have jumped to the wrong conclusion. Which then of course raises the question about why you'd flip out like that and demand to know "if I'd ever played with mollie" without bothering to go back and read my posts first.

And really is that what you're going to get after me for?

Well, you haven't done a lot else yet this game. And, it was really weird that you made a big deal about something that made no sense and demanded to know if I'd ever played with Mollie (which, by the way, I have) and basically flipped for no good reason, when if you'd actually read my posts it should have been quite clear that I understood what Catdog meant and, in fact, that that was why I was trying to question them, so I wanted to you explain yourself.[/quote]

I don't recall "flipping out". I don't typically reread a game early day one especially when I'm having difficulty keeping caught up in real time as it is. I was quite busy this week and kept up in between classes and responsibilities. When I read the post where you asked what he meant by scum theater it pricked me because it's a phrase that's been in use quite regularly in recent years and I thought for sure you've been around and played with Mollie, who basically coined the term, therefore that question felt like scum trying to look busy. I dwelled on that that day before I posted it and by that time I was convinced you were just playing coy scum.

Basically you're saying, I understand that you misunderstood and could have if you'd not gotten the context. How dare you not go back and read the context for something you misunderstood even though you thought you understood quite well.

[Tammy]

But let's get serious here.
I'm immune to drugs/poison, so...
it's likely that there's a poisoner in the setup.

I've asked the mod if there's a difference between drugs and poison, waiting to hear back on that.

^ Something varsoon did as third party in UNIMUM. This is what initially gave me pause about his slot.

I'm laptop only, but I've also got a lot of free time.
Regardless; no excuses.
You're in the game, you're liable for your content.

Can you give more explanation for your Diamond Sentinel scumread?

This is where varsoon goes on his TERRIBLE dgb scum push. Dgb missed a little time and varsoon went all over her to blow up smoke and try to push ANYTHING other than the growing Ds wagon..

Are you arguing that Varsoon is 3rd party in this game?

If so, why are you claiming he's trying to push anything other than the growing DS wagon?

[Tammy]

PV tends to get a pass because unfortunately this is his play style and does this every single game. He's lynchbait due to it and even though some people think he can't be read, his alignment does tend to become clearer as the days continue because he will end up posting and what he does choose to post on, though usually weird as hell, is quite readable.

[Tammy]

Thus why I want PV vigged at some point.

And not BBT or Snowman? LOL

I've already said. Snowman typically posts later in the game, and is easier to read. I've never played with BBT so I don't know if he's a compulsive lurker.

I just looked at machine and he definitely posted more than this, gave reads, and was rather endearing in his posting. Which is way more than he's doing here.

[Tammy]

Allrighty ho. I've got to do some other things but I will try to be back tonight. I'll be doing this officially tomorrow, but I'll be going V/LA for this week starting tomorrow afternoon. I'm going out of town. I'll still be around a bit as I'll have access to the internet by way of phone, but it will be sporadic and when I get a chance.

People I feel relatively decent about being town in a variety of degrees: beeboy, varsoon, maxous, anxiety, aeronaut, diamond sentinel????????? I think he's town, but you guys have me nagging worry

People I'd not mind wagoning today: SNOWMAN, catdog, (muffin, dwlee - suspicions, I'd vote to hammer but have reservations on actually wagoning.)

People I suspect but wouldn't wagon today: Yosarion, Drixx

[Tammy]

(And, by the way, I don't believe that you actually tried to search, since I literally played with Mollie in my most recent game and you would have found that if you took like 15 seconds to search).
.

If you actually believe this then you believe I'm posturing scum. Why aren't you voting me?

Or better yet, why don't you tell me how to find if two people have played a game together. I assure you I did try to find out.

Your weird shade throwing is really weird. Surely you can do better than that.

And yes, if you were acting like you didn't know what a phrase means that is pretty common then I'd think you were scum trying to look busy and to make someone else look bad and would vote you for it. Considering how often I change my mind on my reads, that's not a very serious threat coming from me, but man color me depressed if this is your town play and I'd looked forward to playing with you for years for....this?

[Tammy]

Also, cute, but that's not flipping out. That's me thinking I'd caught you acting obtuse for something you should quite well know.

[Tammy]

eople I'd not mind wagoning today: SNOWMAN, catdog, (muffin, dwlee - suspicions, I'd vote to hammer but have reservations on actually wagoning.)

How come BBT didn't make the list?

That's who I was forgetting. I knew there was someone else.

[Tammy]

(sigh)

You made a post that seemed to totally misrepresent me in a really strange way. And from your choice of words, it seemed that you were making a big deal about it (maybe you weren't serious when you threatened to "vote me for the rest of the game", but that was how I read it).

I asked you about it, because your post didn't make any sense to me.

I am thinking this is a minor nothing that got blown up into something it's not, especially since when I made that post I had forgotten I made that one-liner you seemed to be referencing, so I guess we should start over.

Tammy, what do you think about CatDog and the weird reasoning he gave for voting BadGirls in that early post, and then the way he avoided answering questions about it?

Heh, well when I've had a few I tend t be very confident in how I feel.

Starting over sounds good, though I'm going to crash, so I'll look back at cat dog and your question tomorrow.

[Tammy]

Sorry I did not come back last night! Long drive through a couple states and I passed the fuck out. Although it won't actually do much for this game now that we're going into night:

mod - I am v/la until Friday

Yos - I don't find catdog's reasoning for voting Badgirls there weird or problematic nor do I find the scum theater claim weird. Their interaction has been somewhat weird. In Machina mafia, ds basically used titus as a crutch and did whatever she said, and I'm gathering from their interaction there and briefly what I skimmed of his iso in the saga game that he tends to have a more friendly deposition towards Titus. Him being a bit abrasive where they are concerned goes against expected interaction between them (and is part of where I think DS might be town because he's definitely not trying to keep on her good side at all, but this is something that I don't think is a very strong reason for him being town.) It doesn't bother me too much when people don't answer a question, especially early game. They could have missed it, forgotten to answer it, something? IDK I just keep asking if it's important to me until I do get an answer.

I have a general don't like their posts, good contender for scum feel there. Oh wait hey, it's their points against varsoon that I don't like. It's not that they think he's scum while I think he's town, it's that the points brought up don't make sense in any way that I think comes from town. If they were their real feelings, I'd expect to see some underlying paranoia there, but it feels matter of fact, not paranoia, just bland points given.

I wish Snarky wasn't hammered so quickly, I start to begin to pull together the game starting in the second half of day one

I still think that beeboy, varsoon, anxiety, maxous, aeronaut are town. Still thinking town on diamond sentinel; my only doubts stem from how certain a bunch of other people are on him being scum.

I'm actually of the mind that I like dwlee's read change on dgb. I don't much like the post or the reasoning for it because that is weak. You can absolutely change your mind on a direction or a scum read or the intensity if you pick up something new, but I do like his complete 180 on the read there. She went from his strongest town read to his scum read based on one post. It's something that I see more often come from town. I've never played with him though, so I'm not sure if I'm not giving enough credit. If he typically does this intense read changes based on one post as scum, then this point is moot.

Someone made a point about BBT not voting his strongest scum read but voting a more null read, and that's a good point. Not sure what to think of him after he showed up. DGB is right that BBT constantly promising to catch up is a scum tell, but the one thing that did give me pause was him requesting for why DGB had him as a town read. He knew DGB shouldn't be reading him as town and pressed her why. It's a very small thing but a small thing I liked. Regardless, if he keeps promising catch ups never to come, he is probably scum.

Whoever posted that DGB putting herself in her town list is a scum tell, it's not. DGB always puts herself in her town lists. It's completely null. That said I am a little worried about DGB. I'm no kuribo and I agree with him that she really can't be read day one, but there are a couple little things that have me keeping an eye on her. The thing is they're play style things she does as town too, and basically right now I'm having an internal debate if this is town DGB or the town-mimic DGB.

I don't like that Drixx is focusing on the people who suspect him as much as he is. It's day one, people have laid out suspicions, nothing concrete (you still feel like a consultant by the way), and no one is voting him but he's being sure to point out that we have't given any reasons. I'm not a fan of this behavior at all.

I'm starving and am going to get some breakfast. If the thread is still open, I'll try to post some more before the lock. I'm not sure I really have anything more to add though.

[Tammy]

*disposition towards Titus, not deposition :p

[Tammy]

@DGB: You don't see DS' vote as coming off of meta experience from SaGa Frontier Mafia, where you were generally lurky as scum?

The game just started... I had a Dr's appointment downtown at 10... then the bank... then pick up some glass... then grocery shopping... then I had a art exhibit at the library to set up.

DS is scum.

Over explained real life excuses scum tell.

Two can play at that game. And to boot, you are committing your very own scum tell.

Also, dgb you know your silly reaction scum tells aren't the way to read me. The last one you drove me into the ground with was a very town me.

I do like the pulling out a scum tell on me when I note my suspicion of you as if I don't know the best way to deal with a town you is to kiss your ass subtly and then kill you.

Come now, surely you jest.

[Tammy]

Mmmmm Tammy

There is a lot of non-game related banter in your posts.

You know what I think about that?

Scuuuuuumtellllllllll

Actually you know what? There's not. I'm pretty self absorbed so I just skimmed. This is exactly the way I've played, with probably less off game talk than there normally is from me because of lack of time, so you just bringing this up looks like wall sticking but fake wall sticking since you've said before that the way to read me is through my emotion.


How come you haven't been reading people's emotions this game? You just keep calling people scum. That's what looks like mimicking by the way.

[Tammy]

Bah, in theory no night kills are nice, but they really do nothing to help me round out my reads :/. Also, I dreamed yosarion died and I woke up thinking the game started while I was drunk and was rethinking some of my suspicions.

My first thought when I saw the hammer, other than frustration cuz really, was that dgb was probably town from it. She garnered a bit of suspicion yesterday and would have known she was hammering town and I'm not sure she damages her credibility that terribly on day one with how the day was going. I'm not a fan of the hammer or the reasoning, but I'm just not sure it comes from scum her in this playlist because I'm just not sure she would expect to get away with it, and I don't think she'd do something likely to harm her team like that as scum on the first day. I still don't like the way she omgused me or tried to reaction test me when I mentioned being uncertain of her. I expected the omgus or a stronger focus on me for mentioning it, but I thought a town her would give a different reaction, not exactly sure what though as it's been a long time since I expressed suspicion of her in a game, just different I guess. And I also thi this is so far away from my scum game that the omgus even felt a bit weird, but who knows.

Anyway!

Not sure who I want to vote for at the moment as I need to go back over yesterday but I'm going to go back to playing skyrim as I have a master vampire to kill so I'll do that later

[Tammy]

VOTE: DS

Worst opening \/ote

Also I am not forgetting about you Dwlee.

somewhere I missed the point where I was supposed to care.

This response feels weird.

[Tammy]

VOTE: DS

Worst opening \/ote

Also I am not forgetting about you Dwlee.

Why is it a weird opening vote?

Especially considering one of your last posts from yesterday also indicated dissatisfaction or suspicion regarding the hammer?

I agree. why you felt you need to vote when someone else stated their intent ? and why you didn't w8 for the claim?!

I don't abide by this new site meta of dancing around the hammer. It gives the scum way too much time to prepare their fakeclaim.

Can you find me a game where you do this as town?
I am following your logic but I disagree with it and want to make sure you are legit.

[Tammy]

What are you doing Maxous?

Is that the only comment you have today?

[Tammy]

VOTE: DS

Worst opening \/ote

Also I am not forgetting about you Dwlee.

somewhere I missed the point where I was supposed to care.

This response feels weird.

Is it the wording? I don't like the way it was worded, but it's too late for that now.

It just felt wrong.

[Tammy]

@Tammy, Did I just read a case about DGB being too dumb to scum from you? When hammering there completely stopped my thoughts on Snowman or anything that happened in quite awhile?

Good

I don't understand the second sentence.

As to the first, not at all. I don't think dgb is dumb at all. As scum, she doesn't want to do things that will directly let her team down, which is why lurking for a while was actually somewhat of a town tell for her. When she wants to she has a very good scum game, and based on the way she was playing and pushing yesterday, I'd say if scum she was putting in the effort to not let her team down.

Dgb, as town, is rather unpredictable. She reaction tests and has certain scum tells she will push people for. She's very likely to get a read she feels very strongly in, or exaggerates how strongly she feels it and will push it for all its worth.

That unpredictability and changing reads on a whim is one thing that would carry her through in some player lists as she could ride on her reputation for doing things like that.

However, I do believe as scum she's smart enough to take note of the environment and judge how her actions would be taken the next day. I think that most people would react like diamond sentinel did in this game as not everyone thought she was town in the first place and there aren't that many people familiar with her or her play style. So, in this particular situation, I'm thinking she'd be less likely to hammer as scum here.

I've thought about potential reasons this doesn't work, because scum have definitely lolhammered before. I have! But as scum you tend to do what you can get away with or maybe do something silly like that if you're not caring about going down. Her play doesn't suggest that and I don't tank she thought she'd be able to get away with it.

Does that make sense?

[Tammy]

VOTE: Tammy

Bad

That's a pretty silly vote.

[Tammy]

@Tammy, Did I just read a case about DGB being too dumb to scum from you? When hammering there completely stopped my thoughts on Snowman or anything that happened in quite awhile?

Good

I dunno. I doubt that anyone would have hammered after such a PR claim. Honestly, it seems like a move scum would do to incriminate the next wagon (ergo, me).

So, that's why my vote is on DGB. Fmpov it's me v. her

This doesn't make sense.

Scum or town she couldn't have known he was a pr. How does snarky being town incriminate you? You also weren't the next largest wagon.

[Tammy]

Tammy if you have things to say I suggest you don't hold back today.

Bad

I have no idea what you're trying to do or prove. I'm town I know both of your heads respect my abilities, so I have no idea why you're trying to intimidate me but I will not play along or be intimidated by you.

Take your silly act elsewhere.

[Tammy]

Anyway in case that's a vig kill varsoon gave you and you're threatening me with it:

The reason I'm inclined to believe diamond sentinel and his vt claim is because if his belief that his flavor was a trump card. I'm also a vt, but my flavor is arcade junkie, not wage slave, and when I got my role pm I also thought it was a sort of trump card that I'd be able to identify a real vt with. When I saw ds claim vt but without the flavor I was going to ask him if he played pac man or something to see how he'd respond. So, vts all probably have different flavor, and I'm just not sure a mod provided fake flavor claim would give him that same feeling of trump belief.

So, if that is a vig kill, go for it. I'll still flip town, and the town should probably inquire into why varsoon gave it to them and why after showing no suspicion on me before they used it on me.

[Tammy]

Tammy if you have things to say I suggest you don't hold back today.

Bad

I have no idea what you're trying to do or prove. I'm town I know both of your heads respect my abilities, so I have no idea why you're trying to intimidate me but I will not play along or be intimidated by you.

Take your silly act elsewhere.

We will determine whether or not you're town when you go on offense. Time to turn the pressure cooker on and make lunch. I'm hungry.

Bad

have fun with that!

[Tammy]

Tammy if you have things to say I suggest you don't hold back today.

Bad

I have no idea what you're trying to do or prove. I'm town I know both of your heads respect my abilities, so I have no idea why you're trying to intimidate me but I will not play along or be intimidated by you.

Take your silly act elsewhere.

I respect your abilities, that doesn't mean we think you're town. You're dodging reads on the major wagons and essentially saying DGB wouldn't hammer BC she'd be scumread for it when that hammer came soon after I announced we were catching up.

I am not thrilled with your play here Tammy but I think DGB needs to die today.

~Titus

I'm not dodging anything.

No, once again you are reading what I'm saying and reducing it without even trying to understand the behavioral analysts I'm doing.

I'm not interested in interacting with either head of you're going to play the bullying intimidation game or just hand waving what I'm saying.

I'm also having a really hard time accepting your vote on me coming from town you guys. I'm more inclined to believe that if you guys were town, you'd actually give me breathing space to do my thing. Trying to browbeat me to produce anything actually produces the opposite because I'll not do shit.

[Tammy]

ABR, we need to put our heads together but I hate the spontaneous claim from Tammy her.

~Titus

Lol

Please stop. Just stop.

[Tammy]

Can we use it at our own discretion or do you want to have a say in how it's used?

Bad

Go full ham. That's what I intended for you to do.

Tammy if you have things to say I suggest you don't hold back today.

Bad

We would never vig you over Peregrine, you must know that. Your claim is too early. I didn't threaten you, I just asked you to attack.

Bad

Reads like a threat to me.

I was going to claim yesterday just like I said I was thinking about.

You have absolutely no idea about me as a person or a player if you actually think this is the best way to deal with me or get a read on me. You both have played with me before, attacks come when I feel them, sometimes not at all. And I sure as hell don't attack on command.

And just for this before I'm going to be more passive and wafflier than usual. So nanny nanny boo boo and all that jazz.

[Tammy]

VOTE: Drixx

Ooh talk to me about this!

[Tammy]

ABR, we need to put our heads together but I hate the spontaneous claim from Tammy her.

~Titus

Lol

Please stop. Just stop.

Btw I wasn't loling at the in thread conversation. I was loling at the not liking the spontaneous claim from me. Shows absolutely no understanding of me.

As if under a vig threat I'd claim vanilla so that the game understood why I was leaning town on diamond sentinel instead of a claim to save my own ass.

Like is this real life?

[Tammy]

You're dodging reads on the major wagons and essentially saying DGB wouldn't hammer BC she'd be scumread for it when that hammer came soon after I announced we were catching up.

I am not thrilled with your play here Tammy but I think DGB needs to die today.

~Titus

I thought I asked yesterday, but can you please explain what I'm dodging? You have to be speaking of yesterday because surely you're not accusing me of dodging major wagons...today...when the thread had been opened up for a couple hours.

So, the only logical thing is you're accusing me of dodging reads on the major wagons yesterday but when I look back at yesterday that doesn't make any sense at all. And not even moonlogic not sense, just no sense. I was on Snarky's wagon and said more than once I liked the wagon. I town read diamond sentinel, and you and I even had a conversation about it. I was iffy on dwlee, but by the end of the day came out with liking some of his posts which was a town lean there. So what was I missing? Who was I dodging?

I already said that you were reducing my explanation on DGB, and I'm not essentially saying that. I spent some time considering her hammer and what it meant for her and her alignment. She'll call this the paranoia scum tell, but she has a good scum game and I wouldn't just underestimate her by thinking she wouldn't do it, but looking at her approach to this game and the environment of the game I find it less likely. I'm not 100% convinced I'm right about it, but it's what I have. Why do you think she's scum and should die?

What does you saying you were catching up have to do with her hammer?

[Tammy]

Diamond Sentinel - Being a VI is nothing to be proud of and no matter what you say it does harm town and harms games. At the very least, being unpleasant makes games unpleasant. You seem to get pissy because people don't listen to you, but guess what? People do not listen to VIs. So you want people to listen to you? Be less unpleasant, work with people more, scumhunt, don't be antagonistic for the fuck of it, don't be a VI and don't brag about being a VI.

And don't bring up machina mafia about how your VI ways don't harm town. Granted you were not the only town issue that game, but hammering early just because you were tired of the game and were planning to leave the site? Actually thinking on that makes your vote for DGB because her hammer was awful and she should die a bit comical in retrospect.

[Tammy]

Okay well having someone be a mason, and someone I was suspecting, I guess makes up for the no kill. Although he misspelled mason in the crumb The claim actually makes sense for his play. One thing I didn't like was his focus on wanting reasons for people merely suspecting him, but being near confirmed town does change some of the ways you approach the game. My main issue with Drixx was he felt very subdued in the way he was interacting with people, and the town game I've experienced with him and read of him had him being rather dramatic. But I felt like shit for suspecting him just for that if he was just doing his part to not have an overly dramatic and unpleasant game and I know what it feels like to be suspected just because you're not yelling or bitchy, so I just called it a consultant vibe while I figured out if it was alignment relevant or not.

So hopefully this is just a better indicator of his town playstyle, but it also makes sense coming from a mason.

[Tammy]

talk to me about muffin, somebody. I could go there. I prefer ds/dwlee.

Yosarian /dgb maybe too? They are not performing well at all here.

bbt is unfortunately town

I'm going to go make some lunch and then I'll be back, but can you talk to me about why bbt is town. I hated pretty much every single one of his posts the past couple pages.

[Tammy]

VOTE: DS

Worst opening \/ote

Also I am not forgetting about you Dwlee.

Why is it a weird opening vote?

Especially considering one of your last posts from yesterday also indicated dissatisfaction or suspicion regarding the hammer?

I agree. why you felt you need to vote when someone else stated their intent ? and why you didn't w8 for the claim?!

I don't abide by this new site meta of dancing around the hammer. It gives the scum way too much time to prepare their fakeclaim.

Can you find me a game where you do this as town?
I am following your logic but I disagree with it and want to make sure you are legit.

beeboy I don't think you answered this.

[Tammy]

I might be wrong but BBT is one of those players who I find looks townie as scum and scummy as town. He is obviously very off track but the way he is hamfisted about it makes me think hes probably town.

if you can explain otherwise, I'd love to hear. I'm taking your reads with more merit than usual, tammy.

Why would you take my reads with more merit than usual?

I'd have to take a look at BBT's town game to see what you're talking about. My only town experience with him is from a really long time ago where I was an alt and was only in it for a short time. My limited memory from that wasn't that he looks scummy when town, but long time ago, so.

Anyway, the way he's pushing his read felt fake as fuck and I had flashbacks from team mafia when he was weirdly over aggressive and kept attacking llamarble for nonsense. Practically everyone and their brother town read him for that nonsense and thought I was silly for suspecting him for it.

[Tammy]

Calling anyone out, not just aeronaut, for not posting yesterday was pretty silly. It was Saturday, the game thread had just been opened, people do have lives. It's pretty frustrating when people act like you're supposed to sit here 24/7 refreshing the page.

Also, votes and pleas on peregrine are pretty much a wasted effort. He'll probably never see the votes or the posts.

[Tammy]

Catdog - Why are you taking my reads with more merit than usual?

[Tammy]

Eventhough I like most of what yosarian posted yesterday I'm having doubts now because of this:

I still think Snarky is going to flip scum.

Wondering if it's the classic "town expect scum to know what a player flip so I'll pretend to get the flip wrong." (despite Snarky's claim and reads after hammer making it look like a town flip) move.

I hated that post too. I also didn't like this post as it was along the same vein:

Well, DS still has yet to make a post that looks town to me.

[Tammy]

I wish Gorkington were here :/ He's the resident expert in reading Titus. I was growing a bit suspicious of a Drixx/BG pairing because there has been no communication between the two and I thought they were avoiding each other, but I guess that's scrapped. But the way the push on me was done felt really weird. In Mafiaception, one of the things that was leading me to suspect Titus was that she gave me a townread too easily. Usually when town* Titus suspects me for weird things, but as scum she finds reasons to town read me. So, I expect weird suspicion, but this felt like a mimic of suspicion. Like okay check, make sure to suspect Tammy some so she doesn't get suspicious of a too easy town read, but it didn't feel right. The Good and Angry post where she's bitching about her interaction with ABR felt really off and fake.

So yeah, I need Gorkington. So, hopefully P5 is town, doesn't post and Gorkington replaces in. I'm pre-buddying

I had another thought, but I'm running out of steam and need to do some Sunday cleaning and prepping for work, so hopefully I'll remember whatever it was.

Oh, I don't really have much of a read on Muffin. He reminds me a bit of Mastermind of Sin who basically did nothing day one regardless of alignment because day one. I'm pretty sure muffin did this in HU2 on day one and I was convinced he was scum because of it and he started picking up day two and after. So, I'll wait and see what he does and hopefully it's not just focus on p5 which is a completely useless endeavor.

(She read me pretty easily as town in Mafiaception, so this isn't an every single time thing.)

[Tammy]

*machina mafia I mean, she was scum in mafiaception.

[Tammy]

Eh I've caught up but I'm getting ready to run out the door so this will probably be disjointed until I can make a proper post tomorrow.

*crossing fingers Gorkington is peregrine's replacement*

DGB - I love emoticons almost as much as exclamation points!

BBT - Why would I be bothered that you of all people* have me as a null? (*Not being condescending but don't we have exactly one finished game together in which your team killed me the night I replaced in?)

Yosarion - Is your town read really on BBT because he's pushing for reactions and not going for easy lynches? Really?

Catdog - I'm pretty proud of butterfly mafia, but I'm not sure why you would give my reads more merit than usual because of it. Have we not played together since then? I don't feel really all together this game yet, and why would you give my reads more merit than usual if in this game I've said that I suspect you?

Brian - Last I saw your reasons for suspecting Maxous was because he ignored your question and a bit of omgus. I don't really follow your suspicion on him. Care to help me out?

I don't really care about all the claims; I don't think it ruins the game in any way and makes it impossible for town to win. Maybe it will turn out to be beneficial as who scum choose to kill can be more useful than usual. I do think it's silly to spec what muffin's role might be though.

I've got to head out. If my team shows up late, I'll try to get the rest of my thoughts down. If not, tomorrow tomorrow I'll see y'all tomorrow!

[Tammy]

Sorry I've been absent; I forgot how rough the week after spring break is. Anyway, I'm in a super good mood because I finally completed a move in practice this morning I've been working on for months!!! I will be around on and off for the next few days. So!

I have a couple things to do before making an actual coherent post about other things, so this is self-aborbsed me time agogo.

I'm a little confused with the role interaction between catalog and Brian. I was thinking that catdog was going to say they protected me last night and that was the thing that they knew. I think I was a likely target for the night kill last night, and though now it's rather silly in retrospect at the beginning of the day when I thought ABR was threatening a vig on me, I thought it was because they tried to kill me and failed and that was a way they could get rid of me.

ANyway, Brian you should ask what version of jailkeeper you are because I thought that a watcher would still see you visit me. But if it's the one version where all actions stop then that might make sense. I'll need to map out the actions to see what makes the most sense here.

But I do believe that both of them would target me so :/

Though Hiplop - If I can at all help it, I don't make night kills when I'm scum. I think the only game I did when there was someone else who technically could was when I had a delaying passive where anything wouldn't be revealed until a day later, and that was strategic.

DS - It isn't even a little bit a maybe guilty on me. One, see above. Two, I could believe me being the nightkill here. Three, we have no idea what other roles are out there that could have interfered with thing if I weren't the night kill. And more importantly, read my first post of the day. That post never comes from a scum me who's just had their kill blocked.

Not sure what to think about Maxous' reason on his vote on me. When I saw the vote I thought it was because I asked Brian about his read on Maxous and I thought he just didn't have enough experience with me to know that I like to work with people that I've played with and have talked to as I've gotten suspicion for that before. But then his reasoning that I could be scum with the game in my pocket? On day two? I'm used to weird paranoia every now and then, but usually it comes from newbs or when I'm alive longer than they think I should be. I'm mostly concerned about this because I'm not seeing frills of paranoia around the edges of the vote and his play towards me that I'd like to see if this really is paranoia. So, it's just felt throwaway, but I don't know what to think about it because I thought he seemed pretty town yesterday, but I also haven't had a chance to look back at yesterday like I've been meaning to.

[Tammy]

You're dodging reads on the major wagons and essentially saying DGB wouldn't hammer BC she'd be scumread for it when that hammer came soon after I announced we were catching up.

I am not thrilled with your play here Tammy but I think DGB needs to die today.

~Titus

I thought I asked yesterday, but can you please explain what I'm dodging? You have to be speaking of yesterday because surely you're not accusing me of dodging major wagons...today...when the thread had been opened up for a couple hours.

So, the only logical thing is you're accusing me of dodging reads on the major wagons yesterday but when I look back at yesterday that doesn't make any sense at all. And not even moonlogic not sense, just no sense. I was on Snarky's wagon and said more than once I liked the wagon. I town read diamond sentinel, and you and I even had a conversation about it. I was iffy on dwlee, but by the end of the day came out with liking some of his posts which was a town lean there. So what was I missing? Who was I dodging?

I already said that you were reducing my explanation on DGB, and I'm not essentially saying that. I spent some time considering her hammer and what it meant for her and her alignment. She'll call this the paranoia scum tell, but she has a good scum game and I wouldn't just underestimate her by thinking she wouldn't do it, but looking at her approach to this game and the environment of the game I find it less likely. I'm not 100% convinced I'm right about it, but it's what I have. Why do you think she's scum and should die?

What does you saying you were catching up have to do with her hammer?

Titus you never responded to this.

What reads was I dodging?

Why is DGB scum who needs to die?

What does you saying you were catching up have to do with her hammer?

[Tammy]

Which day one wagons?

[Tammy]

I need to catch up here. So if ABR says we are down, we are down until I catch up.

Good

Also here is your "I'm catching up post". This is not mind-blowing. You literally said I am down until I catch up.

I would maybe see you had a point if I squinted and did a few shots if you bothered saying oh something along the lines of "I'm catching up right now please don't hammer until I give my thoughts." But hey guess what you did not do? Any of that.

You didn't even say you were catching up. In fact you don't even make a post after that. You don't complain about the hammer at all. DGB hammered one hour after you make that post. You don't post, and I'm pretty sure that part of your argument here is that you read quickly, though you never return.

In fact, the game was left over the entire night. I had time to make a post before work. You? You never return.

So, I'd really like to know how what you saying "I need to catch up" has anything to do with DGB's hammer and how it makes her look scummy in relation to you???

[Tammy]

What day one wagons you think I dodged giving reads on should be really easy for you to say considering your oh so uncomfortable about it.

[Tammy]

DGB, why did you hammer while knowing (I presume you thread the thread) that I was attempting to catch up?

Claim stalls are unacceptable and you know that.

We need to push back against this new site meta that allows people to diddle forever while they are at L-1.

It wasn't a stall. That's absurd. Given how fast I read, you could have let me contribute.

Again, you were presuming Snowman knew site meta in your response.

Here you go. Why are you including given how fast you read and how you couldn't contribute, when you didn't even come back within 8 hours after that "catching up" post you made.

[Tammy]

*shrug* If I had noticed Snarky was at L -1 I might have approached it differently. You're objecting to the phrasing.

Second, I said I was catching up and I didn't make a catchup post then because I went to bed when I saw DGB had hammered basically saying she thought I was useless at best. Snowman was lynched and DGB's hammer was bad IMO.

You're still not answering who I dodged giving reads on.

No, you didn't say you were catching up. You said you needed to catch up. Also, fast reader extraordinaire, did you not notice that Drixx posted that he intended to hammer in 30 minutes 30 minutes after your post?

This is just blowing hot air, this is beyond the over-egotisitcal Titus that thinks everything is about her and everyone should follow and listen to her. I know you're going to say it's not about ego, but your play suggests otherwise. Someone hammering when you did not explicitly say you were catching up and wanted to post thoughts doesn't make the game or their actions about you. Stop acting like it does because this just reads fake hot air as does your assertion that I dodged giving reads on the major wagons, when in that very post you just responded to I pointed out how you were false in that assertion in the first place.

[Tammy]

Dwlee and Beeboy. I still don't know where you stand on them.

@Dwlee, Not even close. DGB is probtown if you're town, not confirmed town.

Tammy, I did answer that question about which wagons.

Good

Where was that? I must have missed it. Is it too hard for you to just rattle off the names again since you apparently answered it once?

[Tammy]

Tammy, I make no qualms about my ego. Call me fake all you want but I expect to be allowed to catch up. I wasn't. Period. I am not going to like that. That's irrespective of it being me though.

You can quarrel with me not using magic words or not realizing Snarky was at L minus 1, but to claim people couldn't see I was catching up is absurd.

Dwlee and Beeboy. I still don't know where you stand on them.

@Dwlee, Not even close. DGB is probtown if you're town, not confirmed town.

Tammy, I did answer that question about which wagons.

Good

Where was that? I must have missed it. Is it too hard for you to just rattle off the names again since you apparently answered it once?

I literally quoted the post in my reply. Like really Tammy, what's with you today?

Did not see that. It was the last post on the page.

You don't know where I stand on beeboy and dwlee? Really?

I'm going to let you go read my iso, then you can get back to me. If it makes you so uncomfortable you should be reading me. You're obviously not. I even wrote a post specifically to you where I talked about both of them and my take on early wagons. AND in that post that you responded to today, which I wrote a few days ago, I talk about dwlee.

[Tammy]

In fact, I'm going to be nice and make things easy for you here's me dodging and not talking about beeboy or dwell in Post 439, Post 815, Post 822, Post 941 and Post 1159

~~~

I need to talk about my yosarian read when i get back from my meeting as it's causing me problems :/

Also ABR how I read you is somewhat mitigated by the fact that you are in a hydra and how it could affect your scum game. Also in mafiaception I felt really right about you do to how you were playing the game after scum got lynched and continued to do so and how scum dealt with you. I don't have that here, so it makes it harder.

[Tammy]

At the moment I'm kinda inclined to believe catdog, but if they are scum then I was not the nightkill because they would have known better than to say noone visited me when clearly someone would have in that case. I doubt they would claim watcher, just the tracker part, unless it was a mistake. But they could easily go er I mean tracker I guess?

[Tammy]

Oh also when I caught him by tracking him in Butterfly mafia, hipplop was just kinda subdued about his role and a lot less dramatic and frustrated. I'll have to go back and look at that game again though.

[Tammy]

Okay I apologize as I've had a few so some of this might not be too coherent. If not, I will clean it up tomorrow.

First off Yosarian I want to say if you are town I am very sorry. I have never played with you, but I have seen your posts in the forums over the years. I've seen people talk about you being a good player. People that I respect a lot have expressed how much they enjoy playing with you. From that I have built up in my mind what type of player you are as town, and you haven't met this player I've built up. I thought if you were town, you'd be a guide of sorts or at least insightful to some degree, but you're not. So, I'm sorry because I can imagine how frustrating it might be for someone to be reading you based on a reputation they don't know first hand and it might seem unfair. And I'm especially sorry if it turns out that you are town and that you are right about things that I'm looking at you cross-eyed for.

That being said, you did say yourself that you've been playing for 11 years and I do believe that I'd have similar issues with your play without the aforementioned reputation expectations. I think.

Anyway, my main problems with Yosarian's play is that it is extremely superficial and shallow. Sure, DS didn't do himself any favors at all yesterday but Yos' post where he claims that DS didn't make one post that looked town was a little overboard and felt fabricated to be like really guys I think this guy is scum. It's the same type of feeling I got from the after Snarky lynch post where Snarky looked pretty town but Yos made sure to get in that he really thought Snarky would still flip scum. This reaches twitch factor times ten. Then there comes the weird reads and reasonings.

Take for instance his BBT town read. He reads him as town for:

I like BBT's play here. (page 45-46) He Seems more interested in scumhunting and getting reactions from people then in trying to look good or hit easy lynches. Likely town.

I also like the Muffin wagon.

Yosarion - Is your town read really on BBT because he's pushing for reactions and not going for easy lynches? Really?

It looks to me like BBT is really scumhunting and trying to figure out people's reactions. The play looks town motivated to me.

I mean at this point in the game, the best way to tell the difference between town and scum is that town are really scumhunting while scum are pretending to scumhunt. I think BBT's scumhunting looks real, I think catdog's scumhunting looks fake.

After BBT spent an eternity promising to catch up, he came in and attacked R&L for meh reasons. Yosarian is immediately swayed by that and points to one game of meta where he apparently had a bad scum game. What I'm having a hard time accepting is that someone with eleven years of experience gives a town read on someone for attacking a hard target, which is what this really looks like it boils down to. I pointed out that this was exactly what BBT did in Team Mafia. Choose a widely townread player and attack the fuck out of them. He got townread for that by nearly everyone else. Yosarian brings up a game where BBT played poorly as scum, but I had already had this conversation with catalog about BBT and our differing reads. Yosarian shows no indication of reading that and if he thinks that catdog is faking scumhunting why would he just completely miss that conversation (maybe I'm a bit self-absorbed too)

During Rosarian's catch up he makes several comments on the claims that "Argh" sound so fake. But one thing that bugs me okay two. But one - I claimed VT. When Yosarian got to that post he made this post:

And then right after I agree with her, Tammy claims VT for basically no reason with one vote on her, or am i missing something? Really dislike that play.

Which makes absolutely no sense at all considering my claim post was:

Anyway in case that's a vig kill varsoon gave you and you're threatening me with it:

The reason I'm inclined to believe diamond sentinel and his vt claim is because if his belief that his flavor was a trump card. I'm also a vt, but my flavor is arcade junkie, not wage slave, and when I got my role pm I also thought it was a sort of trump card that I'd be able to identify a real vt with. When I saw ds claim vt but without the flavor I was going to ask him if he played pac man or something to see how he'd respond. So, vts all probably have different flavor, and I'm just not sure a mod provided fake flavor claim would give him that same feeling of trump belief.

So, if that is a vig kill, go for it. I'll still flip town, and the town should probably inquire into why varsoon gave it to them and why after showing no suspicion on me before they used it on me.

Which I think very clearly identifies that I thought it was a vig threat I was responding to. The day before Yos got after me for not double checking a context I didn't think I misunderstood, but here I clearly say I think I'm responding to a vig threat, so I'm lost. I mean sure if you want to say my conclusion to the even was silly that's one thing, but I think it was clear, which makes his frustration about my claim feel wrong on every level.

Also, he clearly still suspects Diamond Sentinel so if you're going to continue suspecting someone I've explained my town read on, why not engage in that? That's where the superficial feels especially comes in. There's no insight, there's no digging deeper, there's no attempts to figure people out.

And this is the overall trend of his game. He tries to sound too confident that people are scum. He's not digging to figure out alignments and is just overall phoning it in.

I want so hard to push for his lynch right now but at the same time I'm tugged by this feeling that I have expectations I'm not sure i should have so.

I'd have really really loved it if Maxous had done something in conjunction with voting me because otherwise it feels throwaway and weird.

I just lost this post and somehow retrieved it so I'm submitting and continuing in the next post!

[Tammy]

okay I lied. I'm going to sleep as I have practice in the morning so I'll pick up tomorrow with my thoughts.

[Tammy]

I'd have really really loved it if Maxous had done something in conjunction with voting me because otherwise it feels throwaway and weird

I would of..but then you went MIA on me and I got lazy afterwards

Your last post was a bit better though, it was the first time you had a bit of conviction going after somebody in the game.

..I think I might go just back on Muffin. I think he's getting away with murder here and the more claims we get the more i'm convinced he's fake-claiming this shit.
like, compare him to how dwlee, catdog and even BS handled their abilities on the first night and revealing them today and look at Muffin who a) didn't bother clearing someone when he had a chance and b) claimed in a really indirect manner to get the heat of a wagon off him.

A bit better than what? And if the previous wasn't good, then how come you didn't comment/push any of that. Literally the only reason you've listed for suspecting me is that I might be scum with half the people in my pocket, and if that's the case shouldn't you be talking to other people about why they're town reading me? I might not have posted for a couple of days, but they certainly are, so you just left that out there hanging but with nothing behind it and no real attempt to figure it out.

[Tammy]

Tammy, a lot of your post boils down to "Yos has been playing for 11 years and I don't understand where a lot of his reads come from so that bothers me." That doesn't really make sense at all to me (why would my play become *simpler* and over time?), but I get it all the time. I always use a combination of logic and gut and intuition when scumhunting, especially when we don't have a lot of hard facts yet, because that works much better then trying to use pure logic 100% of the time. I can't always explain my reads very well, but I still share them so the rest of the town. And at least in the last several games I've played, my reads have turned out to be quite accurate for the most part (although not always of course), even when I can't explain them.

It's not that at all. I just reread my post and I don't know where you got this conclusion from, and considering that while I have not played with you I have read your posts and interactions with people in forums and you don't demonstrate an inability to understand where someone else is coming from, this reduction of my post to a very inaccurate interpretation is bothersome.

I never said your play should be simpler. I never said I don't understand where you're getting your reads. Your reads read extremely superficial to me. Like you're reading the surface of posts but not digging into the player motivations. It's not deep enough. It's *too* simplistic. It reads very robotic.

Using a combination of gut/logic/intuition/emotion while playing isn't confusing to me because that's how I play as well so it's something I do understand quite well. Which I use the most depends on what type of mood I'm in. I don't mind people not being able to explain reads very well or even weird reasonings for reads because that's almost everyone save people like regfan, and I'm not able to explain reads very well all the time either.

Absolutely none of that is my problem. My problem is that your reads and reasonings look like you pushing things that you can plausibly push. Like okay this person is exhibiting textbook scummy behavior A; I can push this and question this and scumread this with no retribution. This is what your previous Diamond Sentinel and Catdog scum reads feel like. I didn't like your reasoning for your BBT read, not that I didn't understand you. It was because it similarly felt weak. I'll look back at that muffin thing and if I have a chance reglance at team mafia game, but he was widely townread in that game because he did the very thing you're town reading him here for, and I will dig my heels in for this until he does something that actually looks town because everybody - including my team - told me I was wrong to suspect him because he was so obviously town.

(And again sorry if I'm being an unfair jackass and you are town here.)

During Rosarian's catch up he makes several comments on the claims that "Argh" sound so fake. But one thing that bugs me okay two. But one - I claimed VT. When Yosarian got to that post he made this post:

And then right after I agree with her, Tammy claims VT for basically no reason with one vote on her, or am i missing something? Really dislike that play.

Which makes absolutely no sense at all considering my claim post was:

Which I think very clearly identifies that I thought it was a vig threat I was responding to.

I saw that, but it didn't really make sense to me. Did you really think Varsoon was about to day-vig you or something and you had to hurry up and claim? For that matter, if you really thought you were going to get vigged, why would you think a VT claim would help avoid that?

Yeah this is the conversation that you should probably reread and it boggles my mind that you missed that whole conversation because you were catching up right there. You took the time to note that you hated my claim, thereafter ensued an entire conversation about it, and you completely missed it? It's on page 41.

But to summarize. Varsoon gave something to BadGirls. When Badgirls asked if there was a particular way that he wanted them to use it, Varsoon told them to go full ham as he intended. Three posts later BadGirls tells me to not hold back if there's anything I wanted to say that day and they had already voted me. It read as a vig-threat to me. You can say that was silly of me to think that and maybe it was but that's how it read to me.

I didn't claim to save myself, which I already said, and it's in my very claim post that I was explaining why I was town reading DiamondSentinel. I considered claiming day one so I could explain because a large part of my read after he claimed was based on how I approached and felt about my own role when I got it. If I were trying to save myself of course I'd claim a role, I'm not a moron. I was claiming because I wanted to explain my DiamondSentinel read.

Anyway, I have a general policy that the town should generally lynch people who claim VT, for tactical reasons. I mentioned that on day 1. The fact that all I did was grump about your VT claim and didn't actually vote you for it should actually indicate that I don't find you terribly suspicious.

My complaint had nothing to do with you maybe not finding me suspicious and not voting me there. You had gotten after me the day before for getting the context wrong, but I had in that very post that I thought it was a vig threat I was claiming for yet you just mentioned not liking it because of having one vote on me. It had nothing to do with the vote on me and I explained it in that post. You also complained about other claims and didn't comment on the actual stuff that was going on in the thread. IIRC one of the only things you actually did comment on that had to do with gameplay was liking BBT essentially because effort. The things you chose to comment on during your catchup felt fake and throwaway rather than commentary on the actual game.

It's harkening back to my earlier complaint that your play feels surface level.

Also, he clearly still suspects Diamond Sentinel so if you're going to continue suspecting someone I've explained my town read on, why not engage in that? That's where the superficial feels especially comes in. There's no insight, there's no digging deeper, there's no attempts to figure people out.

Actaully I'm not really suspecting DS at the moment. A lot of DS's recent play doesn't really make sense as scum. [/quote]

But you did in that moment because the very post after you posted your dislike of my claim, you quoted a post of DS's and said that he was still responding poorly to pressure which would suggest still suspicious of him because otherwise what was the point of the post?

And this is the overall trend of his game. He tries to sound too confident that people are scum. He's not digging to figure out alignments and is just overall phoning it in.

I certanly am not "phoning it in".[/quote]

Again if you're town, I'm sorry for being the jackass who's hounding you for not playing to certain expectations when you're just trying to do your thing, but it certainly feels like phoning it in. I don't really have time to meta these days but I'll try to at least find a game to skim through.

[Tammy]

They were posts where I was talking about one or the other, not both. You acted like I didn't have reads on either.

439 - leaning town on beeboy
815 - In a response to you, leaning town on beeboy, don't know what to do with dwlee
822 - Town on beeboy, would hammer dwlee as he's not a town read but wouldn't like to wagon
941 - beeboy still town. And it most certainly does talk about dwlee. I liked his read change on DGB, thought it more likely comes from town.

How can you not know where I stand. I'm not going to work or interact with you if you act obtuse. Is there a reason you're so fixated on dwlee and beeboy. Do you find beeboy suspicious and that's why you're trying to discredit my read as stale? Is there a reason it should have changed? Do you also suspect dwlee?

Here's one of my biggest problems with you Titus. You're using inflated language to try to make me look bad. I don't think this comes from town you. I realize that you like to say you don't use meta, but you have played with me enough to know how I operate with reads and reasonings. If you think back to mafiaception, just how long did it take me to decide on a read on you? I'm pretty sure I finally decided you were scum and voted you within 24 hours of the deadline. It similarly took me a good long time to be confident in a read on BBMolla. Now, that's just one of the more recent games you've played with me, but you're accusing me of dodging reads on players when that isn't even the case. And really I want you to explain why these two matter. They weren't the wagons most likely to go through yesterday but you've fixated on these two, which I didn't dodge at all. One of the ones you accuse me of dodging on was one of the people I actual leaned town on early on and said so. But now you're trying to discredit that read by calling it a stale town read. So at first you get after me for dodging it, but then when you're proved to be wrong, you can't bother to go oh I was wrong about that, you try to save face by calling it stale.

I can see not drawing the conclusion that I was leaning town on dwlee at the end of yesterday, but considering I had the line "It's something that I see more often come from town." that's an indication I'm leaning town there. I did include a caveat that if that was typical scum behavior for him specifically then I could be giving him too much credit but considering noone countered that it was, it doesn't matter.

[Tammy]

^^ ObvTitus

@Tammy Your last post has an f***ed up quote tag. Can you fix and spoiler?

~Titus

Nope!

[Tammy]

Titus - What do you think about Yosarian? Because you keep dodging giving a read on him.

[Tammy]

Titus please read that yosarian (one of my personal scumhunting heroes) post and tell me that is not fucking scum? Like I'm sorry but he would NEVER push that piece of shit as an actual case

I'm not sure on Yoyo. I've only played with him twice before and Mollie told me the warmest things about him, but I thought his cases were shit too there. Turns out ABR was sending major false positives and that fucked with all my reads (and is why we hydra). The other time we played I was dead D1 because trolololol everyone is roleblocking vig.

Plus one person's "shitty" is another man's gold mine.

Good

Why would I think you are pretty town on yoyo when this is the last thing you said about him?

Actually you know what Titus? I'm done with you. I don't think you're town here and I'm not going to interact with you or try to work with you this game. You aren't actually processing anything I'm saying and you feel fake as fuck. You reduce things to an incorrect level all the time and I'm so sick of it. My read on Yosarian has nothing to do with burden of proficiency and I never said it does. I'm astounded by your interpretations of things because I know you're a smart person, so why are you acting obtuse.

My problem with yosarian is the way he's reading the game. I've said that. If you want to talk to me about his reads or my issues with him talk about that but you're attacking me for piddling little shit like beeboy and dwlee who again why are you fixated on them?

Why are you getting after me for not reaching out to form groups of people to work together? Why are you expecting that's how I'm going to play the game?

I'm done here. Lynch me if you want because you can't understand me or how I play. I'm just done. Every single time. Every single game. You say you want to work together with people, but just as in machina mafia that means that you get to discredit, misinterpret other people and act all superior because you're all about your ego, but really all you want people to do is what you say for them to do.

But this game this feels intentional. You feel obtuse for the sake of it. And I don't negotiate with terrorists so step off.

[Tammy]

Oh also when I caught him by tracking him in Butterfly mafia, hipplop was just kinda subdued about his role and a lot less dramatic and frustrated. I'll have to go back and look at that game again though.

Went back to this. Hiplop's fake claim there was eh. He countered the cop and just overall sounded really fake. This is hindsight bias but he was like ARGH this is why I hate getting these roles because I always get mislynched with them always ALWAYS!!! Ack Alack.

We are in somewhat of a different position here because in that case we had tracked him to the kill and he had to make something up to try to explain that away.

As far as the claim goes I'm torn. I would believe it's possible that he would watch/track me night one. I do have a tendency to die early and when he was on the scum team in butterfly they let me live because I tend to die early.

I was a bit thrown off by the tracker/watcher claim based on him saying that he knew stuff and that's why he was telling people I was town. The watcher at first didn't fit with that, but if he is tracker and followed me to nowhere then it makes sense he knows something. UT said this game was a bit swingy and if it's anything like Anything Goes then there are probably a good number of roles about. Typically in a scum team, the goon does the killing because the rest of the team is roled and is using their roles, so the fact that I went nowhere is a pretty good indication of being the vt I claimed. Unless I'm a ninja I guess. But since they said don't worry about it for today, then all that make sense.

Tracker/watcher could be a scum role too, and there's a part of me that is remembering American Revolution when I replaced in and my predecessor had fake claimed watcher and I got caught immediately by a wrong guess for the watch result. I "went back and reread my results and found that they were differently worded." For some reason the game bought that and I ended up winning. But this doesn't feel like when I pulled that.

I admit I could be a bit swayed by oh you watched me in case I died; I have a tendency to like people who protect me and shit. I did feel a bit weirded out when he said he was taking my reads with more merit than usual and when I asked why he said it was just a feeling. I, again, though was expecting a protection claim because if I was the night kill last night and he had protected me then I could see his logical conclusion being that I was the attempted night kill target ergo maybe I was on track with my reads even though I suspected him too. But the tracker/watcher combo in which he saw nobody visit me doesn't make sense with that.

But the play around the claim and the frustration feels real. So, yeah I just don't know.

Part of my hesitation here is my troubling read on yosarian. I just don't think he's town, but I'm having trouble with it, and it did take me back when catalog agreed with that day one when I was suspecting them also.

I kinda want to stick my head in the sand with this one.

[Tammy]

A bit better than what?

than most of your posts?
I didn't like your vote on snowman
I don't like your scum-read on Titus
You're playing more reactive in general than what I'm comfortable with.

that's the cliff-notes version

the back and forth with Yos looks better than your previous 2 scum-reads. I'll have a think about it.

I voted you because Muffin wasn't being lynched, I had no interest in a catdog wagon and I wanted to put my vote on someone I thought is scummy. So I did.

What didn't you like about my vote on Snowman and how come there's nary a peep about it from you until the mysterious scum-Tammy got people in her pocket thing.

You're still not talking to anyone who actually is town reading me, which you should be doing if you think they're in my pocket.

What's wrong with my scum-read on Titus? Why is she town?

Where is my reactivity less than comfortable? Is this any different than our previous games together?

[Tammy]

Wait, Maxous you didn't like my vote on Snowman but you thought he was scum??? What about my vote didn't you like then? Was our reasoning for scum reading him different?

[Tammy]

DGB, HELP ME! PLEASE!

ABR says Tammy is town but left and made a snide comment about well if you're dumb you can make an ass out of yourself by pushing it. He's left though after we refused to lynch CatDog and Muffin. I just need help here. Getting reads out of Tammy as wagons happen is hard. I can't get a read on her because all her positions are after the fact. For instance, Maxous is a larger wagon and we're getting near

Her interaction with me is just wierd. She's saying I'm discrediting and recycling my thoughts on CatDog but then basically discrediting them. I'm so frustrated with her. I'm trying to figure her out and can't. What am I doing wrong here? Tell me. Help me. Beat me over the head if you need to.

How now brown cow?

I really really do not want to get into a back and forth with Titus but I can't help but point out the what the what here and just flat out lies.

(Also, I forgot to respond to the herd mentality thing. I have never argued for a herd mentality in games. That's mollie's thing, and it's something I have never agreed with. The only thing I can think of Titus associating me with herd mentality is me arguing that the town was acting like lemmings just following Titus and her bad arguments in machina mafia and not thinking for themselves, which was the truth, but has nothing to do with herd mentality. )

Titus is accusing me of dodging giving reads on people who are wagoned. Though I've given reads as I get them. I don't give reads before I have them. I never have, I never will. The reads she's accusing me of dodging on, I most certainly did not. I gave reads on the major wagons from yesterday. This has been pointed out but Titus refuses to admit she's wrong. Saying I don't know on someone is most certainly a read. I'm not going to fake it until I make it and when I felt I had something to go on, dwlee got a leaning read from me by the end of the day.

When it was pointed out that I did, in fact, give a read several times on beeboy, instead of acknowledge that she was wrong and misread, she tried to discredit that with it being stale. But her primary accusation was that I dodged it, which I didn't.

Here again she's trying to be sticky on the dodging giving reads on the major wagons thing. There is no dodging. Not knowing is not knowing. It's easy to take a stand when you're scum. When you're town and don't know the setup, it's a little more difficult. I'm clearly trying to reason out and figure out the game; there is no dodging.

How are my positions after the fact? There's been exactly one flip so far. I thought he was scum. He was town. I was wrong.

You mention Maxous but I had him as town yesterday. I'm trying to figure him out right now in part because Brian finds him suspicious, so I'm taking that into consideration and his position on me is really strange. I'm not to scum there, but it doesn't feel natural.

I have never mentioned Titus' read or reasoning on Catdog. And I haven't discredited catddog. I've tried to make sense of the claim with their play, which I do whenever someone claims, but there's been no discrediting.

What the interaction has boiled down to has been Titus accusing me of dodging reads I didn't dodge. When I point out the times I did talk about those reads I was dodging, she discredits one of those reads I was dodging as "stale" and then the other as she couldn't magically deduce my read from what I've said. This is moving goal posts on me and not acknowledging when the aforementioned incorrect accusation was proved wrong. Then I get accused of making an argument I didn't make. Then she won't answer why she's fixated on those two particular reads (unless I'm missing it again, point it out to me if so, thanks!). Then when I point out she, in fact, is dodging a read, which by her own definitions saying "I don't know" is not giving a read, she claims to be town reading that person really hard and I should be able to deduce that magically. She then reduces my argument to what I did not say and asks why I'm not playing in a way I don't play in the first place.

[Tammy]

Also I want to point out that she wants DGB to tell her why she's reading me as town and to bang it into her head if she has to, but last I saw she was reading DGB and scum and was discrediting and reducing my reasoning for a town read on her in the first place, so why is she wanting DGB to go all Yoda now?

[Tammy]

Oh well that weakens a potential connection I thought I saw between yosarian and bargirls. I thought that yosarion's whole double voting thing, but going back and checking it, was an indication that he knew they were given that and he was trying to cover it, but I hadn't gone back to see if bargirl's really had a double vote so. :/

[Tammy]

@Tammy:

regarding the snowman vote -

I agree with Varsoon that the snowman wagon is the tits so

VOTE: snarky snowman

there's no reason given here why snowman is scum. this is more about buddying the wagon on him.

your eventual reason on him is...lurking? no reads? meta? it's ambiguous

-

yes, I believe Bad Girls is town. What I don't like about your interactions with them is

a) how you were simultaneously discrediting them as if you were talking to town but are also calling them scum at the start of day 2.

b) How you claim you are unable to read Titus but didn't just try to address ABR more because....being in a hydra affects his scum game? If you're so unable to read Titus I dunno why you wouldn't just try with the other head you

are more able with

I think there was a third reason I can't remember atm.

-

Where is my reactivity less than comfortable? Is this any different than our previous games together?

because scum players are more interested in self-preservation than town players? Especially given the VT claim
I don't know about the previous games. I probably should go have a check I suppose

Yes, early game I helped someone I was town reading wagon someone I didn't like and yes it was based on meta. It was an early day one wagon.

You also thought he was scum, and I want to point out that you made not one peep about my lack of reasoning for that read. Also, can you point out to me how you give reasons for all your votes? I'll note that in the case of your vote on me, it took a while before you gave reasoning for it.

It appears that your *actual* big reason for scum reading me is that you don't like that I'm scum reading Titus which is what?

I'm not completely unable to read Titus. I find her extremely difficult to read but I do have some markers for reading her and I've ended up being right more often than not on her. I just find her really hard to read. That doesn't mean I'm not going to try to read someone.

Where was I discrediting them? If you mean me thinking that a hydra who I know respects my town game interacting with me weird, hell yes I was questioning that. In tarot card when metal sonic's alt started interacting with me in a way that made no sense for how much I know he respected me as a player, I called that out for being scum. Some people thought I was making an emotional read and that I was pissed, but I wasn't, I was arguing that his interaction with me didn't make sense for town. I was right and he was scum. Badgirls start of day interaction with me was hitting those same notes.

Being in a hydra absolutely affects your game and especially so for people who hate being scum and have a hard time keeping up the energy to post. When you're scum in that situation, you have someone to help keep you energized. The drain effect isn't so pronounced. I literally explained how and why my way of reading ABR doesn't translate to here.

Riddle me this? Why are they town? Why are they town to the extent that my scum reading them is scummy to you?

Does Titus' flat out lying not bother you? Does Titus' reducing my reads to something they're not not bother you? That just reads town to you then? If so, you'll just excuse me not taking anything you say seriously then.

Also, you've played too long to make a claim that scum are more self-preserving as town. You have to know it's a personality trait and anyone who thinks that a vt should be expendable for lynch purposes is stupid. Town should never accept their lynch except in certain outlier instances.

[Tammy]

@Tammy, If you want to talk, we can talk later like game tomorrow. If you don't want to talk, then don't talk to or about me. I frankly am running low on patience to try and understand you, in the immediate moments.

You've never mentioned my reasoning on CatDog is the problem. Your last post on CatDog is essentially my biggest gripes that I've expressed about CatDog. :S You could literally rip most of your complaints about CatDog and trace them back to my posting. You basically stole it.

Also, the "I didn't know" clearly misinterprets the tenor of my posting to cherrypick one comment. I don't get how you play like at all. I don't get how you're spouting things that make ZERO sense to me whatsoever (regardless of alignment) and how you're townread for it.

~Titus

\

If you're town here, I need a break from you big time. I'm so fucking done with you. And what's fucking frustrating is that I just agreed to hydra with you so I guess I have to grin and bear it.

If you're scum you're doing what you have to to play to your win con, but I am so fucking done if I'm dealing with your town game again.

Like did you really fucking accuse me of stealing your read on catalog. DID I FUCKIGN READ THAT RIGHT????????????

I'm done. I'm done. I'm fucking done.

[Tammy]

It appears that your *actual* big reason for scum reading me is that you don't like that I'm scum reading Titus which is what?

At the time of your vote you had given 2 scum reads and I didn't like how you pushed either of them.
that is the most basic level, actual reason I thought you were scummy.

but look, fine - I'll drop the read on you for today.
I feel like I'm getting dragged into something I don't want to get dragged into

Well at the time of my vote I had voiced suspicion of 3 people actually.

What didn't you like about how I pushed either of them

at the time of my vote?

Why did you not say anything about it at the time?

I don't want you to drop the read on me; I'm trying to understand your read and thus you.

If you're going to say that my suspicion on someone is bad for the reasons you've given, how come you can't answer my questions? It should be pretty simple.

[Tammy]

What didn't you like about how I pushed either of them

at the time of my vote?

Why did you not say anything about it at the time?

I don't say every suspicion I have of somebody as soon as I get it.
So what?
What are you suggesting? that I'm retroactively making up reasons to scum-read you?

That's exactly what I'm saying. This has been a developing narrative not a natural one. Did you answer what problems you had with my suspects at the time of my terrible snarky vote?

Also, the progression has gone. Naked vote, Tammy has people in her pocket (which would suggest paranoia), not doing anything to figure that out, to not liking the snarky vote, to not understanding if my meta explanation was r0meta (is that right), to not liking my scum read on Titus and somehow discrediting her, to not liking that I'm trying to read someone that it's hard for me to read.

Did I miss something? Because I would have expected any of that during the back pocket comment. So, yes this looks like an after the fact narrative not one naturally developing.

If you're going to say that my suspicion on someone is bad for the reasons you've given, how come you can't answer my questions? It should be pretty simple.

because when I see things like "I'm so fucking done" and "I'm not gonna take you seriously if you town-read Titus" then that's a pretty cue to stop the line of conversation.[/quote]

So you have a problem with my discrediting bargirls, where again? And I'm scummy for scum reading Titus. But you have absolutely no issue with her flat out lying and discrediting me? She's super town for it?

[Tammy]

Oh well that weakens a potential connection I thought I saw between yosarian and bargirls. I thought that yosarion's whole double voting thing, but going back and checking it, was an indication that he knew they were given that and he was trying to cover it, but I hadn't gone back to see if bargirl's really had a double vote so. :/

I believe it was related to vote counts because I had a similar impression. But I thought it was mostly people moving their votes around and joining wagons without UT remembering to adjust the vote tally as the same people left the wagon.

Well yeah it was just a mental note for me to check on and if so would point out, but since it doesn't exist and that's not what varsoon gave them it's moot.

[Tammy]

Oh I thought aeronaut replaced out

[Tammy]

Does Titus' flat out lying not bother you? Does Titus' reducing my reads to something they're not not bother you? That just reads town to you then?

Hell yeah these things bother me. Her lying, patronizing, and willful ignorance, they bother me. I'm not having fun. Tammy is right on 75% of what shes saying. Titus always gets scumread in every game, I know what I signed up for. I'm just focused on knocking the scum out faster than we can get bandwagonned, and that's not possible until we can make connections from the night actions N2. We're just spinning our wheels fruitlessly.

Bad

I'm sorry you're not having fun. Titus does get scum read a lot, and I defend her when I get a town read on her. She's worse this game than usual in the way she's being and speaking and then acting like she's being reasonable. I'm having a really hard time seeing that come from town her. I'm used to seeing the condescion, the over inflated ego, and the dismissive ness towards anyone who has a different opinion than her because she's always right even when she's wrong she'll twist it to make herself believe she's in the right.

This will be the last game I play in that Titus also plays in for a good long while if you guys end up town because she's only getting worse not better despite her after game posts about how she's going to work in communication.

I'll interact with you, but I'm going to try to ignore Titus and whatever eventual lie or discredit she comes out with next.

[Tammy]

Pretty busy this weekend but my biggest suspects right now are in the pool of yosarion, badgirls, maxous, bbt, beeboy, aeronaut.

Cat dog - you watched Brian skies right?

[Tammy]

This game confuses me.

What???

[Tammy]

You're a vt and not a high priority kill for a scum team. There's a claimed tracker/watcher, potential cop, and a mason. There was also the jk but obvious death last night so moot.

Why the hell would a scum team kill you therefore why would someone give a np to someone who's probably not going to die over more priority kills.

I'm confused.

[Tammy]

That is one sticky dwlee read.

[Tammy]

Sorry two games of meta isn't shit. It's too small a sample size and we don't need you anyway.

If you want to, feel free to explain how they're town though! With specifics.

[Tammy]

@tammy:

do me a quick favour.
let's assume you were targeted for a night-kill on the first night.
who do you think would push for that kill as scum

Not to sound egotistical but I think I'd be a decent nightkill for anyone here. The only people I thought might die before me if they were town were yosarian and dgb.

[Tammy]

I've never played a large theme before. I'm struggling to keep up with everything that's going on.

Have you seen me play as scum Bee?

Surely you jest?

Here's your scum iso from the recently ended large theme Paint Mafia game:

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go

[Tammy]

While I am suspicious of BBT, I am also very suspicious of BadGirls. My brain is pretty fried at the moment, so I'll have to wait a couple days to explain why I don't like BadGirls much though.

I very selfishly would probably like to lynch BadGirls though because if I'm wrong then I think I'm looking at this game in a weird way whereas if I'm right then that can help me with the whole game and my reads on other people based on things Titus has said and some of the things she's gotten after me for.

cat dog should not be holding onto whatever they have as it's not productive. I mean I could see reactions or something but in this situation it's silly. DGB has been cleared by a cop result and if they have countering information holding onto that information is denying the town time to analyze it. Like basically all we can assume is cat dog is claiming to have tracked dgb to brian, but dwlee is claiming to clear her. If that's the type of information they have, I would expect something other than "hold vest close!" So, I"m just like yeah whatever.

[Tammy]

I need to think about some of my reads with Maxous' town flip. I thought that Titus giving that to-do over Maxous getting wagoned instead of muffin coupled with Maxous suspecting me for suspecting BG leaned towards him scum.

So glad I don't have to actually make a case on Titus, but I need to reread through them to see if that pool I had yesterday still stands.

I didn't get any emoticons night one (I was wondering why she was asking), but I wouldn't have since I was jail kept by Brian night one.

Diamond Sentinel needs to calm his ass down though. We're not just going to be following his lead. You don't proclaim yourself town leader, you earn it by building respect and trust. I'm getting a feel of the clusterfuck that was machina mafia right now and snooze seriously.

[Tammy]

Going to bed, so get here tomorrow, but I'd ds is retracting his vt claim then a large part of why I town read him is gone.

Beeboy - whiny did it take you so long to change your dweelee read?

[Tammy]

I'm okay with a catalog lynch because titus accusing me of stealing her read on catdog and discrediting him at the same time is mehsville.

But it feels like r&L is a totally wasted use of confirmation. I'd much much prefer beeboy as confirmation, though he claimed ascetic so not sure if he has an action, or anyone else more likely to actually be scum and partnered with Titus who I think is not R&L. Also why can't it be BBT?

Also yosarion being self-watcher that is conveniently also a cop isn't a definite town role. I haven't had a chance to read back through titus though and I need to do that.

[Tammy]

I'm a little drunk right now so I might be around for a little while!

[Tammy]

oh hey my fake joking april fools title that sleepy should totally remove is actually accurate!

[Tammy]

Oh yosarian should never have had BG as his top town read considering how much he's been around a while and I'm going to just guess he's played with ABR before. He didn't question them for shit as far as I remember. Just hard town read them for ?????????? I'll give Maxous a pass but Yosarian? Nope!

Also remember how much beeboy tried to discredit the lynch with "their meta aint pingin me mayen!" beeboy is doing this thing where he's not actually relying on shit in this game but keeps referring to vague meta excuses for why he has his reads.

Also beeboy kept a sticky as shit dwlee read until today.

I'm having hard time accepting that yosarian is just leaving it up to the group to decide who he should clear. Like wtf is up with that shit?

NOPENOPENOPENOPENOPENOPE.

[Tammy]

also i'm going to sleep i think.

[Tammy]

I hate this game with the fire of a thousand suns, and if I was indeed the night one kill, Brian I shake my fist at you!

Peregrine is probably town, and Diamond Sentinel you have no right to tell someone else there not a good scum hunter while calling me iffy.

The two people I want to look at the most right now are beeboy and Yosarian and if you guys could keep yourselves from quicklynching that would be fucking awesome.

Peregrine - I don't get your reasoning for suspecting Diamond Sentinel due to the VT claim. Am I reading that right? I know there are VTs in this game because I am one and the manner in which he claimed his matched what I thought about my role upon getting it, so I think he is one and not on a scum team that was given multiple VT claims. I do think it's entirely possible that the scum team has multiple vt flavor claims, just that the way he claimed his and thinking it was a trump card looked far more town.

Anyway, I want to reread through some stuff and talk about some stuff, and I will be around all weekend on and off, so please no lynching.

[Tammy]

Dwlee - Are you claiming you were role blocked last night?

[Tammy]

VOTE: DrippingGoofBall

Inexcusable hammer.

DGB is probz town.

Dwlee this is your first post of day two. Why did you say probz town here? A couple posts later, you're saying that she's town, but why did you say probz here?

[Tammy]

Yos what is BS talking about?

Bad

I donno, but it looks like you may really have a double vote. Unless there's another explanation for this, Brian is probably telling the truth. Which means he's likely town; if a scum had that ability I don't know why he'd use it on you, especially not this early in the game. Unless it's just one of those "hey look at me I've got this conformable power" thing scum sometimes do, but, meh. Likely town for now.

I'm just putting this here because I don't want to forget about this post. Pondering.

[Tammy]

Dwlee - Are you claiming you were role blocked last night?

I can't answer this.

It's pretty important considering that Yosarian is claiming to be role blocked.

Are you claiming to have been role blocked all this time?

Not answering things that can clear up things for town is doing nothing but being obstructive and definitely not helping town

[Tammy]

I could lynch Aero or Yos but Pere really shouldn't be allowed to live another day.

Because you find him scummy or because you don't like that he's inactive?

[Tammy]

Yosarian - I'm still trying to wrap my head around your uber super strong town read on badgirls for reasons I can't comprehend. But you said this when I mentioned it after their flip:

Oh yosarian should never have had BG as his top town read considering how much he's been around a while and I'm going to just guess he's played with ABR before.

Yeah. I thought this looked like town ABR, I was wrong. I will say that I started to question that yesterday after they were on aweful Muffin lynch.

Here's my problem with this. They were pushing muffin the entire day. They were claiming he was definitely scum and were pushing for his lynch.

This is the only interaction you had with them about it:

I don't see how Muffin could be town with his actions so far. He and DS and DGB are where I prefer to go.

I know this is going to sound strange, given how little info he's given us, but Muffin's semi-claim and his related behavior actually makes a fair amount of sense to me. It seems more plausible then not at the moment, pending a more detailed explination tomorrow.

And here are your mentions to and about badgirls after this post in which you tell them that you believe it. They don't agree and continue pushing for the muffin lynch that you think was awful:

In [post=2115][post] they are your top town read. (In fact really day one you get after anyone who so much as votes for them.) (Also want to note here that you have muffin listed as a mild town read, this is important for later.)

I don't see any reason to massclaim, ABR.

Varsoon and Badgirls are both obvtown, and I don't care who is or isn't bulletproof. Let's just move on.

This is a post that I don't understand coming from you at all. ABR, your obvtown top town read, out of nowhere suggest a massclaim and claims VT and you don't even sneeze at him while getting after everyone else who claimed? They're also still on muffin and it doesn't bother you at all?

Here's your reaction the next day:

I can not believe you guys lynched Muffin yesterday. What the hell was that, seriously.

I guarentee you that most of the scum group were on that wagon, trying to lynch a claimed obvtown cop before he got his one investigation off. It was such a terrible wagon.

I'm going to go back and catch up, but when I'm done, I will be voting someone who was on that wagon.

You never called him obvtown the day before. You had him as mild town. Your reaction to the lynch also does not match how hard you tried to sway people off the wagon the day before, so the reaction looks fake.

Muffin - 10 (R&L, BadGirls, Maxous, beeboy,

DGB

, CatDog, BBT,

Drixx, Varsoon, Brian Skies

) Lynch!

BS is dead town, Drixx is confirmed-ish town, Varsoon is probably town, DGB is also mostly confirmed town.

There are probably at least 2 scum on this wagon. Between R&L, BadGirls, Baxous,Beeboy, CatDog, and BBT.

First, though, we need CatDog to show up and claim his results from last night. If we believe them, then we can proceed from there.

Granted here you're not just writing them off as town still, so there is that.

[Tammy]

oops broken post tag that should be Post 2115

[Tammy]

Okay thank you!

I'll need to checkback and see if catalog claimed to be role blocked night 3. I remember seeing they didn't have a result and wouldn't say if they targetted someone, but since they had three shots, it would be kinda odd for them to save it.

[Tammy]

Because you find him scummy or because you don't like that he's inactive?

Because I couldn't live with myself if he is scum and wins the game.

Well it looks like he's starting to do stuff so he should be readable from that. I'm really not interested in a lurker lynch for policy on day 5 when we have at least 3 scum still alive.

[Tammy]

due to the nature of this setup we didn't action last night.

Didn't expect to be nightkileld because we figured scum either a) has roleblocker or b) is going to try to flashwagon us.

okay night three they took no action, maybe.

[Tammy]

Nobody is ever interested in a PL but it needs to happen.

Should have happened Days ago.

You're right, it should have happened days ago if it was going to happen.

But today? With the state this game is in? I mean if he's scum, yay, but if he's town it just make this game worse. So, read his play today, and maybe just maybe if we actually use this game day and you know play mafia instead of quicklynching like rabid dogs hopped up on crystal meth, maybe he'll actually post content and be read.

Do you have a problem with what he posted yesterday?

[Tammy]

Diamond sentinel - you are everything I hate about mafia these days. You are making this game a remake of the disastrous shitshow that was machina mafia.

[Tammy]

I'll respond to yosarion later.

[Tammy]

Oh well far be it from me to get in the way of a town block

Carry on captain

[Tammy]

Hey guys, let's start doing things. Mafia wants this game to die down, and that's what's happening here.

If you want people to do things, you probably shouldn't criticize the one person who actually is capable of getting things done when they get a chance to do things.

Why do you care anyway? You've got a great town bloc to do the work and sweep scum with. Nobody else needs to do anything. You guys got this!

[Tammy]

mod - replace me. Thank you.

[Tammy]

Well done, Dwlee. This was a major upset considering the odds. Varsoon, Yosarian, Tammy, Nacho, BBT, you guys done goofed big time.

? We were night killed while calling Dwlee the final scum and pointing out that his claimed role made no sense.

Congrats scum.

Thanks for running it UT!

[Tammy]

Hey guys, remember when I reused a fake claim that my teammate already used?
HILARIOUS!

I thought you were going down to protect the team.

lol yeah, lets go with that lol. Makes it far less embarrassing

Don't be embarrassed! You're not the first person to do it, and at least you were a replacement. People have reused their buddy's claims while not being a replacement, and heck your scum buddy in gumball used the sample vt role name as his fake claim, and no one realized it.

It happens.

[Tammy]

Well done, Dwlee. This was a major upset considering the odds. Varsoon, Yosarian, Tammy, Nacho, BBT, you guys done goofed big time.

? We were night killed while calling Dwlee the final scum and pointing out that his claimed role made no sense.

Congrats scum.

Thanks for running it UT!

That ability is why I fought for you to be the NK night one. Luckily Dwlee shot you when he did. You scare me when I am scum.

Thank you! I'm always surprised when I'm a night one kill though because the early game is usually my weakest. In most games I don't think I really start piecing things together until day three, and then that's usually when I die.

[Tammy]

It's best to me to kill the people you cannot control. Eventually, you would have caught me anyway. I thought you might have been SK because you lived and a bodyguard was dead.

It was legit frustrating to try and scumhunt you and people shut down talking to me. I just withdrew for awhile.

Irony is the SK was in a PT with me.

I swear I didn't mean to drive you crazy. :$

Heh, kanye told me after a game several years ago that he was never taking me anywhere close to lylo again because he can't count on me doing what he wants me to.

I thought you guys were scum who was given a dayvig and had tried to kill me the night before but couldn't so you needed to come up with a reason to scum read me for the dayvig not to look so scummy when you shot me. I know people thought that was insane, but it's also funny that there turned out to be a dayvig giver in the game. Most of the reason why it was frustrating was because I felt like the kitchen sink was being thrown at me and I didn't understand the scum hunting because some of the things you were coming after me for didn't make any sense. Once I realized you were scum, a good deal of my frustrations dissipated.