Mass Effect Mafia - [Game Over]

[mhsmith0]

ego post (I'm the sub).

PS Was that just a hammer?

[mhsmith0]

anyone have key sections or moments I should be looking at, or should I just kinda read through and see what catches my eye? I'm not going to be voting any time soon obviously.

[mhsmith0]

yeah i'm not quick voting anyone. I'll be catching up over the next 24 hours or so most likely. Unless there's just flagrant evidence that TTH is mafia that you want to point me to.

[mhsmith0]

define "guilty". Not Turian? not human or turian or salarian? something else? Sorry for asking possibly dumb questions, but ther'es >3k posts to read at this point and I've barely even started to catch up.

PS Humans, Asari, and Turians combined have a clear majority of votes (14/19 if I'm counting right). Given that this is the case, why has your cop guilty result not been enough to kill TTH already?

[mhsmith0]

I'm not trying to get you to out your role. But you are asking me to hammer without knowing what's going on.

[mhsmith0]

Things I am currently confident about regarding the game state:

1) Suzune is not the billionaire this game
2)

[mhsmith0]

I mean, I guess that Varsoon and beeboy are almost certainly not lying about their claims too, so that's #2 then.

[mhsmith0]

sky just said she'd hammer. so I'd guess TTH won't skate by. I'm just not comfmortable quick voting without knowing what's actually going on.

[mhsmith0]

mhsmith, claim your alignment please.

Are we mass claiming? Or is this just special for me?

ninjad: @bb: yeah I thought that was BS-y too

[mhsmith0]

mhsmith, claim your alignment please.

Expedience, justify your alignment fishing.

[mhsmith0]

*crickets*

[mhsmith0]

Is Exp the last Geth or something? I'm trying to figure out who'd actually be incentivized to ask that kind of question.

[mhsmith0]

But that's basically a wolf claim, right?

[mhsmith0]

There is a 0% chance his role pm has a factional kill and he decides not not opt to use his human fake claim so I don't give a shit I am intervening here.

What?

No, it's not basically a wolf claim. My deepest condolences to you for replacing into a scum slot. Would you care to explain why you have a scum role PM?

Your alignment fishing is weird as hell. If there's an actual reason for it I'm all ears. Otherwise I have ZERO interest in alignment claiming, and find this whole back and forth suspicious.

[mhsmith0]

MHS, in post 888 Expedience scum reads your predecessor and in post 2936 he puts you on his lynch list. But he doesn't really talk about why he is reading you slot as scum.

If he wants to make a case, that's on him. I'm not claiming anything just because he wnats me to.

[mhsmith0]

Agreed. Time for me to actually go back and read all this stuff I guess. Sounds like TTH is generally accepted as being a wolf, if the claims hold up I'm not going to object to a hammer, but I'm not going to do it myself without actually going back and making sure that I understand the game state (i.e. that the claims DO legitimately hold up).

[mhsmith0]

I'll sheep the anonymous poster who's totally not beeboy
VOTE: suzune
I suppose I'll consider a zakk case if people want to hard sell that instead.

[mhsmith0]

Still think we should lynch Asari tbh

Here's the thing: this game state is ESSENTIALLY a fire vs ice multi ball w weird survivor neutrals thrown in.

There are:
6 town humans
2 ice (salarians)
2 fire (krogans)
6 sort of survivor neutrals (turian/asari)

Going after the neutrals is largely wasteful. What we want to see is an ice or fire lynch, and then either cross-killing of each other or targeting the neutrals. Once the krogans and salarians are dead, the humans auto win. But if we have a neutral lynch and, say, two more human deaths, then we're pretty much screwed. So basically krogan deaths are a bit better than salarian deaths, but either one works really well.

[mhsmith0]

Slightly better because the asari neutrals outnumber the turian. Like, if there were four outed wolves and we knew exactly their factions, we'd lynch a krogan today and go from there. But the main thing is to lynch a wolf.

[mhsmith0]

I'll sheep the anonymous poster who's totally not beeboy
VOTE: suzune
I suppose I'll consider a zakk case if people want to hard sell that instead.

?

Why? I would think that you would put a little more thought into this considering the crap that has been posted before. Further, last game I seen you in you were EXTREMELY conservative with your vote. Here you are just randomly throwing it on someone as a sheep without any real reason. Considering the slot you replaced into, a very strong FoS on smith. This is off...

One thing you may (or may not) have noticed in 1775, the game you modded (I assume you mean that and not 1782) was that (IIRC) I got a lot more conservative with my vote as the game condensed and votes mattered a lot more. With a larger roster and no real likelihood of any kind of quick lynch, I don't see the issue with being looser and more aggressive with my vote.

Also, speaking of 1775, I wonder why you think h_a's slot in this game is especially wolfy. In 1775, h_a was a non-CC'd PR (in a game where that would clearly fit in as the 3rd PR), and I was practically begging the board for a counter claim because his postings looked so bad. So I guess the question wrt h_a would be, why do you think his body of work was MORE suspicious than it usually is?

[mhsmith0]

mhsmith0 are you an alt? or is that your main

main

[mhsmith0]

@FAQ: why do you think that's clearing for math? presuming that neither math nor dwlee knew each other's alignments, what specifically makes it clearing for either? Or do you think that dwlee did in fact know math's alignment?

[mhsmith0]

Permission to Garcia?

???

I did not say he was especially scummy - what he was is particularly absent. I don't recall a single post of his that had any real impact and he was basically hiding under the radar the whole game. That leaves my read on that slot rather empty and then I have some suspicions on how you enter the day. Ill have to take a look back and see about the first part of my charge about your voting pattern. I remember you going entire game days without a vote - that is a rather large change from a straight up sheep on a post that is quoting garbage.

h_a was simply absent. Not active lurking, or even regular lurking. Just flat-out gone. His last post was May 24. My first post was June 10th. I have no idea why you'd want to AI read that.

PS I can clear that up: in 1775 the only game day I went without a vote was the last one. Since toasty sold this as a wolf argument against me... I ENDED days 1 and 2 without votes after unvoting late in day. I don't think I was especially aggressive about throwing around my vote in that one, but I'd say I was mainly hyper-conservative towards the end. OTOH that game took like two months (and did kinda get boring towards the end) so it's possible that my memory isn't as great as I think.

I can, however, point you to ANOTHER game where I was super aggressive with my vote.
Newbie 1691
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go
On day 1, in a 7v2 game (as town), I voted for a bunch of different people on day 1 (UTL, KAAG, YA, Aero/Thor IIRC). So again, I don't think that being loose with my vote is necessarily telling wrt my meta. I'll admit that it was an usually loose vote compared to my norm, though. OTOH, this is a 3000+ post game with like 16 remaining players and a whole lot of crap to slog through. And it's a game where I haven't been around since the beginning. So I'm not really sure where there's much of an issue that comes from being pretty open about sheeping something along the lines of what I sheeped. Especially early day, when we're nowhere near any kind of hammer.

That said, presuming Suzune is just a Tularian after all...
UNVOTE:

[mhsmith0]

@FAQ: why do you think that's clearing for math? presuming that neither math nor dwlee knew each other's alignments, what specifically makes it clearing for either? Or do you think that dwlee did in fact know math's alignment?

*sigh

Go back and read dwlee's flip. It is pretty clear that he had a good indication about Math's alignment. He was likely trying to signal the killing factions to target math when that dumb plan exploded in his face.

More seriously, ok I'll go back and read it.

[mhsmith0]

How about other than the Asari?

Then we need Krogan lynch, Salarians are not a threat right now because turians numbers are small

This needs to die as it is probably Salarian. Anything that shoots is a threat that needs to be eliminated.

Threat? Yes. Priority threat for humans ? No.

Just to be clear, this is you claiming Salarian, right? i.e. you're salarian but even so we should lynch an asari or a suspected krogan over you? I want to make sure I'm not mis-understanding you here, or that you might be a human just going really wacky or something.

[mhsmith0]

How about other than the Asari?

Then we need Krogan lynch, Salarians are not a threat right now because turians numbers are small

This needs to die as it is probably Salarian. Anything that shoots is a threat that needs to be eliminated.

Threat? Yes. Priority threat for humans ? No.

Just to be clear, this is you claiming Salarian, right? i.e. you're salarian but even so we should lynch an asari or a suspected krogan over you? I want to make sure I'm not mis-understanding you here, or that you might be a human just going really wacky or something.

You can't actually expect him to claim salarian, that would be suicide

I mean, yeah it would be, but it kinda seems like she(?) is. Or has some really daft idea about town blowing its lynch power by targeting neutrals instead of actual wolves, and is doubling down on it by arguing that somehow the salarians are not any kind of threat.

[mhsmith0]

Let me guess, you are also asari and totally agree with and are in complete lock step with MathBlade and bee boy?

Tell me I'm wrong

Tell me

1) I'm not claiming faction
2) I'm not claiming faction
3) I'm not claiming faction

Now, what do you think of shiro's actual postings? Is she town with a daft idea or a salarian? I feel like those are the only two reasonable options here.

[mhsmith0]

@zakk: I'm down with lynching krogans or salarians. I'd prefer krogans. But since either faction dropping to one severely incentivizes the other to finish them off (and thus practically forces a counter-shot attempt), what matters most is getting one of them. So if shiro IS in fact a salarian, we should lynch her (barring an obvious krogan on the board). If she's just a human with a wacky idea then we shouldn't. I'm getting the feeling she's more or less salarian claiming, but then again maybe she's just really in love with her idea. I lean salarian here, but if there's a solid argument for her to be human I'm very much listening.

[mhsmith0]

Varsoon, you mispelled beef boy, I don't think the mod will accept that

[mhsmith0]

Actually, what if beeboy was really salarian all along.

[mhsmith0]

Rap songs

[mhsmith0]

Didn't sky confirm ooba?

Math do you really wanna lynxh this face?

Umm...

shiro you are a charmer you were obvscum but for some reason people just wouldn't lynch you ~Anti

I mean, I don't know that you're for sure salarian but if you are I'd rather you gone from the game, cute
pictures and all.

[mhsmith0]

@Smith

So you say my sweet talking skills are a reason to lynch me even though you are unsure? Ooook good to know.

@Math
Oh hush you. You know what I mean.

@shiro: I'm saying your sweet talking is not a reason not to lynch you. If you're salarian we should lynch you for that regardless of cute pictures. If you're human we shouldn't lynch you, again regardless of cute pictures.

[mhsmith0]

Party Boat is so wrong about me. I don't know where he gets off telling me not to out his stupid little PT and then does it to make me look scummy. I told him that I am pretty busy IRL right now. I'll let you all know too. I work for a living, we are adding an addition on the house right now, and I'm doing a show that opens in 3 weeks. So yeah, I don't have time to make a hundred posts right now. In 3 weeks the show will be over and I'll have a lot more time for this.

So Party Boat neighborized me so he could figure me out. But does he actually take the time to do that? No. The PT is all of 19 posts long. I asked about who made the room because we have a flipped Geth who could put two people in a neighborhood and read what they said. I am not going to assume that we don't have other people that can read PTs. You've all read his post where he thinks I'm scum because he doesn't see why I asked. Tough shit on him. IMO he is scum reading me and took absolutely zero time and effort to determine my alignment. All he has done is make the damn PT so he can now proclaim I am scum.

Shame on you Varsoon. You've seen me enough to know I'm not scum.

But I honestly don't give a fuck right now. Town, if you lynch me you will be definitely hurting yourselves. I've all but claimed human if you read my damned posts. Since I expect to be NK'ed if you don't lynch me I'm going to post some other stuff so it will be out there for your information.

that sure is defensive whining and not any actual reads

like as I said in there- it's totally possible I'm wrong about you being scum, but not giving detailed reads because someone could be watching the QT is the stupidest cop-out I've heard all game. I claimed that I was a neighborizor to you, unlike the Architect junk that CKD dealt with and has since died, and asked you to either give me a list of people you wanted dead or give me some detailed reads, and you did neither and gave me 2 half-assed reads and another vague scum read that I knew was 100% wrong and had TOLD YOU THAT before you even bothered posting it. If you want to not die post some reads that have enough effort into them that someone in the game can tell they're not faked scum bullshit.

+1. I also feel pretty good about Party Boat being town tbh. Right now my town pool is:

Non-cc'd best friend claim: CKD
Likely human: FAQ2, Party Boat, ooba, Cake Effect (presuming boat is telling the truth)
Turian: Varsoon, Suzune (apparently)
Asari: Beeboy, Mathblade

My caution is that skybird is likelier salarian than krogan, but at this point either is acceptable. To wit:
- 401 believes varsoon, but not beeboy
- 2702vote zakk for content, then unvotes for content in 2873. seems like posturing more than scum-hunting.
- 2839over-defensive. not faction specific, just generally wolfy
- From 2575 - krogan I feel like would be tempted to hop on that wagon quickly for distancing
- 3679discrediting beeboy
- 3834 specifically telling off varsoon for voting her.

VOTE: skybird

[mhsmith0]

I'm sorry sky bird but this sounds pretty OP for a human role.

[mhsmith0]

It's like a super op joat. N1 you have tth's power, n2 a cop (alignment? Exact role?), n3 a pretty op wagon analyzer (multi simultaneous shot friend/foe cop), and I don't see how n4 "frame" is a town power at all.

[mhsmith0]

She said she could only analyze a small wagon, likely keeping it from being completely crazy OP.

[mhsmith0]

That is bullshit. The larger wagon makes it less op of all you get is your alignment or not. They could have also analyzed Hebichan's wagon at some point when it had 5 people or less. This is fishy.

Well, frankly the whole thing is fishy. The claim itself (even if just mainly true) seems pretty unlikely to be a human claim. Most human flips are been crap powers. There was one role cop, and the other human flips have been kinda junk powers, while non human flips have been better (although the turian pt cop probably wasn't that great of a power).

[mhsmith0]

Ugh I don't wanna lynch skybird

Why not? Do you think her claim is plausible as a human?

[mhsmith0]

Partially her claim,
partially boats http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 1#p8018181
Partially Poe,
Partially an ISO of very little scum hunting

Nothing slam dunk (other than her claim), but it adds up to a pretty good case IMO. Probably salarian instead of krogan but that's acceptable IMO.

[mhsmith0]

@MathBlade: We are NOT LYNCHING NEUTRALS. WE ARE LYNCHING WOLVES. PERIOD.

[mhsmith0]

No need to catch up. Everyone has proclaimed that I am scum. I am a town JoAT and I've revealed my results for N 1-4. I'm honestly not sure who is scum at this point, other than I know it is not me.

Then sell us that shiro is actually mafia instead of a human with a silly idea. Or sell us on someone else. "I'm a JOAT I can't believe no one believes me" is not scum-hunting.

[mhsmith0]

No need to catch up. Everyone has proclaimed that I am scum. I am a town JoAT and I've revealed my results for N 1-4. I'm honestly not sure who is scum at this point, other than I know it is not me.

Then sell us that shiro is actually mafia instead of a human with a silly idea. Or sell us on someone else. "I'm a JOAT I can't believe no one believes me" is not scum-hunting.

explain to me the reasoning behind this post.

if you think skybird is scum...why do you care about any of this?

Because I THINK skybird is mafia, I don't KNOW that she is. Maybe she can convince me I'm wrong. Or maybe she's a wolf and will accidentally spew her buddy. That works too.

[mhsmith0]

Okay, vote me. You have been saying it since the beginning. Everyone has been gunning for me since day two.

Right before I die I will leave all my notes so that the other townies can figure out the game. However I noticed that despite the need to constantly call me scum, the heat has been off this phase. So someone is worried about something.

Or (most) people have finally figured out that voting neutrals isn't going to take hold.

UNVOTE: I will not gain traction on this today. But I will do this before then end.

VOTE: Duppin
This is a better choice for right now.

Cool. Why? I see "Duppin, had a really short ISO." previously in your own ISO. Just that or is there something more?

[mhsmith0]

i'm down af for this plan ^

I can potentially live w this plan. OTOH, who are our best options otherwise? Sky wants shiro (lol if they're actually partners and that was distancing). Mathblade/Suzune are neutral, I don't think it makes sense to lynch there. I had a town read on boat, although i guess I'm willing to re-look at that if there's a good case. Other than that, maybe inside PV, duppin, KTS?

Overall I still think that skybird is our best case right now, but who do you guys think it should be instead if it's not her?

[mhsmith0]

Well I'm getting pretty tired of this. Either lynch me or look elsewhere.

Tell us who you think we should lynch then. You don't like shiro, you don't like Party Boat. Anyone else? Want to build a case?

[mhsmith0]

Dammit missed the anniversary page top

[mhsmith0]

mhsmith why should we lynch party boat?

i want you to build me a case.

Because he's a person, not a boat. Clearly.

I mean, I have a town read on him, so I think we SHOULDN'T lynch him, but that's just me. But if you want to build a "lynch boat" case, I'll listen.

PS If this is a sarcastic rejoinder to my "why don't you build a case on someone" to skybird, I think it's falling kinda flat. Like, I've built a case on skybird, and I think she's mafia. If she is actually town, then she should do the actual work of building a case on someone else. "Screw you guys for not believing me" isn't doing it for me, and it shouldn't do it for you either.

[mhsmith0]

Yeah i'm not building up a make believe case on boat. Here's why I have him as a town read:

1) I'd be SHOCKED if Party Boat was Salarian. I get that theater is a thing and all, but if that's theater between him and E&A then I'd be really surprised.
2) Since Party Boat actually seems to (more or less) understand how voyeur works, I don't see how hebi would have screwed that up. And for that matter, I don't think his hop onto the hebi wagon seemed like bussing particularly.
3) All the Geth are dead.

Conclusion: Party Boat is town or neutral. Therefore not lynching him. Ta da.

[mhsmith0]

Now, if I'm missing something important, have at it. But he seems really unlikely to be salarian or krogan in my eyes.

[mhsmith0]

Sure. Party Boat was pretty hard after E&A early on, and the celebratory post after their death didn't seem fake at all to me. wrt Hebi, there's a shorter time frame there, so I think it largely speaks for itself. Also, page 1 suggests pretty strongly that all the Geth are dead

[mhsmith0]

+1 on both math and zakk. No deaths is shocking, but I'll definitely take it. And at least right now shiro seems like the best option.
VOTE: shiro

Ninjad: @cake: why PV and not shiro?

[mhsmith0]

There are TWO killing factions. For both of them to fail to kill is really weird. Unless this game is REALLY like fire/ice Mafia and cross kills cancel or something.

Anyway, I'll listen to the PV case if you wanna make it.

[mhsmith0]

He's Krogan

Because _____?

[mhsmith0]

I think we should let KTS decide whether or not he wants to replace out. :/
We shouldn't try and force him out of the game if he thinks playing in this game is fine we should leave it be.

+1

[mhsmith0]

And people thought boat wasn't town. lol.

[mhsmith0]

Asari are now the strongest faction by quite a bit, btw

Salarians are fucking stupid for not shooting at them

Hopefully we lynch a mafia and then tonight Krogan and Salarians cross-shoot. If we get one then it seems super likely IMO.

[mhsmith0]

@math: FWIW, the game started getting unbalanced once two of the first three deaths were geth. lol if both mafia factions targeted Ranger N1.

@zakk: that's why it makes sense to try and lynch a krogan. Once the krogans get nerfed, the asari are likely to fall in line. Though a salarian lynch doing the same for the turians (and nearly forcing the krogans to shoot at salarians and vice versa for a night, which if a krogan is NK'd gets the result we want wrt the asari) is nearly as good.

[mhsmith0]

I think Shiro L-1'd it, I think FAQ is 7 votes, not 8. Might have miscounted htough.

[mhsmith0]

Scum have EVERY reason to shoot us

To FORCE you to win with them

and that includes BOTH scum teams

Which leads you to want to avoid lynching mafia first... why?

[mhsmith0]

Can we stop screwing around with neutral lynches that obviously aren't going to happen and actually try to lynch actual mafia? ffs.

[mhsmith0]

I wasn't talking to just you, that was @all. We're not lynching Asari or Turians. We're lynching mafia. Preferably Krogans, but Salarians work too.

[mhsmith0]

Yep FA_Q2 I believe fits that bill.

Ok so why FAQ? I'm not sympathetic to his "boy that was fast" argument, but otoh it didn't seem like there was much of any reasoning behind it, more like a "eh sure we can lynch there why not" sort of thing.

[mhsmith0]

Anyway let's get some FA_Q2 votes going.

Cool. Why is FAQ krogan though?

[mhsmith0]

DID SOMEONE SAY L-1?

More seriously, is there an actual case here? I'd thought faq seemed pretty reasonably townie. Though maybe I'm just being a dumbass.

[mhsmith0]

Dunno but they are scum.
Pinpointing a Krogan lynched is going to be really hard if you want ground breaking evidence considering the E&A lynch showed that scum will mess up there nearest ally in hopes of looking town.

Ok so why is faq a wolf? Salarian would be acceptable for a lynch.

[mhsmith0]

Looks like Exp is mislisted, but the others add up to 15.

[mhsmith0]

I also have a question for everyone else but the asari claims. Do you think the krogans could be fake claiming asari?

Oh, absolutely.

Yeah I really doubt it. The only way this works at all as a gambit is if there is communication between the Krogans and asari, and I doubt that Beeboy (if Krogans) could have id'd enough asari day one to avoid getting outed by a guilty. I mean, MAYBE Beeboy is a godfather or something, but that stretches belief and would require varsoon and other turians to be too lazy to check for the possibility.

Probably ditto on math blade too. MAYBE math blade and Beeboy coordinated... But at some point it's just not likely.

[mhsmith0]

But truth to be told I'm inclined to believe your claim unless you get counterclaimed.

Doc+lightning rid = no kills last night makes a lot of sense tbh

[mhsmith0]

Hmmm. I actually like a FAQ2 lynch still

After reading more about who would have made sense to protect, and when, I'm leaning "well-made fakeclaim"

VOTE: faq2 again

Why? What specifically about his claim seems off? You indicated that you were suspicious of the n4 protect, but are hopping back on his wagon before he can even discuss that action. Bad vote.

[mhsmith0]

See 3838

Right now my town pool is:

Non-cc'd best friend claim: CKD
Likely human: FAQ2, Party Boat, ooba, Cake Effect (presuming boat is telling the truth)
Turian: Varsoon, Suzune (apparently)
Asari: Beeboy, Mathblade

I'd lynch outside that group. Leaning zakk, but am not 100%. His hop back on far looked pretty sketchy though.

[mhsmith0]

Suzune seems turian mainly from varsoons interactions. I can dig around if you want, but it seems super likely to me.

I've found faqs play generally towny, and I don't think he fits particularly well in either krogan or salarian (though admittedly I didn't love his wagon reaction). If you disagree, what am I missing?

[mhsmith0]

Suzune claimed human though. (at least from what I remember).

As for FAQ2 I already explained why I voted on him.

That's right you did, it's everyone else that basically just said "eh screw it let's vote there". Sorry got mixed up.

[mhsmith0]

Ok fair enough. If this is bullshit we're lunching you tomorrow though.
VOTE: FAQ2

[mhsmith0]

I think we may even be at like L+1 now lol.

Ps if faq flips salarian, suzune as a buddy wouldn't totally shock me, but I think she's likelier just turian. Either way varsoon seems to have been protecting her, though I'll need to re read to be sure.

[mhsmith0]

actually i think i know who i'm gonna protect bc it's an easy choice

they shoot at me instead of you ckd, because i have a town utility and you don't other than being conftown

or maybe i'm wifoming them into trying to take a shot at you


we'll see. in any case... the scum who FAQ2 *ISN'T* should be shooting at the other faction. otherwise they are stupid as fuck

Both Mafia factions should be trying to cross kill. Should have last night too fwiw.

[mhsmith0]

To encourage both Mafia factions to cross kill.

[mhsmith0]

I have explicitly been trying to get both factions to cross kill for a while now. Go back and re read my ISO. I'm either being pro town or I'm faking it. Arguing that I'm on the surface being scummy with it is ridiculous.

[mhsmith0]

If I'm Mafia, then I'm... telling the other faction that I'm gunning for them? As theoretical wolf, this helps me how exactly?

[mhsmith0]

not like they're gonna fall for that. free* town deaths? they should TOTALLY try for that

Well the krogans already cross killed when they were trying not to. Imagine what both factions could do if they were actually trying to find the other.

[mhsmith0]

not like they're gonna fall for that. free* town deaths? they should TOTALLY try for that

Well the krogans already cross killed when they were trying not to. Imagine what both factions could do if they were actually trying to find the other.

how do you know what they were trying to do?

Well I guess hebichan could have been lying. I figure she was actually telling the truth there.

[mhsmith0]

also ckd, i knew exactly why you didn't die last night

and yes, i knew he was trying to draw out a counter-claim

and yes, i tried to avoid this happening but then you started trying to steer to PV

who, don't get me wrong, is a terrific lynch choice

but it's not 100% like FAQ2 is for me, so i can't in good conscience condone that today

i would like if salarians shot at KNOWN asari tonight
i would like if krogans shot at salarians as much as possible tonight (unless FAQ2 is salarian, then they should shoot at KNOWN humans or turians obv)



i think that even though we can't win together, those would be the optimal choices (if FAQ2 is krogan)

Whichever scum faction faq isn't (my guess is he's salarian fwiw), has a huge incentive to eliminate the other shooting faction. Which means that faqs faction needs to try and get them instead. Which is good for the rest of us.

[mhsmith0]

Lolololol wolves.

[mhsmith0]

Given faqs chainsaw of suzune, she's probably just last salarian (I find varsoons "I didn't get a result" on her WAY more credible now that we know there was a RB).
VOTE: Suzune
Ps lynching a Krogan is cool too, but those two teams have managed to avoid overlapping kills pretty consistently, so imo eliminating a killing team entirely is optimal today.

[mhsmith0]

Which? Faqs chainsaw or varsoons no result?

[mhsmith0]

I'll sheep the anonymous poster who's totally not beeboy
VOTE: suzune
I suppose I'll consider a zakk case if people want to hard sell that instead.

?

Why? I would think that you would put a little more thought into this considering the crap that has been posted before. Further, last game I seen you in you were EXTREMELY conservative with your vote. Here you are just randomly throwing it on someone as a sheep without any real reason. Considering the slot you replaced into, a very strong FoS on smith. This is off...

This was what I was talking about. IIRC someone was talking about that on day 5 or day 6 as making FAQ suspicious, but i forget who that was.

I suppose the counter-argument here is that the vote itself was pretty mediocre and that FAQ was simply looking for something to attack, and that therefore it didn't necessarily indicate suzune as his teammate, but I don't know that there's a better salarian possibility out there.

If there's a solid krogan case out there I'll listen too, but IMO optimal play is to finish off a scum faction and then deal with the second afterwards.

[mhsmith0]

VOTE: Suzune
Guilty result.

Guess she's definitely not turian then
(Was admittedly considering that she might just be turian somehow).

Not human or salarian or turian (if I understand varsoon ability right), not asari (given all the asari votes on her). So Krogan. Works for me. And if varsoon simply abandoned his salarian ally that's cool too.

[mhsmith0]

Suzune is being awful, probably last salarian unless varsoons guilty eliminates salarian, in which case she's Krogan. Would rather her, can compromise onto power lurker pv if I have to.

[mhsmith0]

Salarians did a huge bad number on this game tbh, like zero Asari deaths with two Asari revealed. That is a whole new level of bad. Like legit bad, what were they thinking ? That somehow the Asari would go away ?

How funny would it be if BOTH of the Turian shots came from the Salarians? We already know Nahdia was one, I have no real clue which faction wanted Klingon vs Nos on N3.

That the krogans would go fuck it and kill Asari for lolz ?

Is this directed at me? If so then the ally of the Turians should kill the Asari. The Asari are the most powerful. My intention is to get them to cross kill.

It was directed at the last salarian so... maybe?

lynching Krogan!suzune today promotes scum to cross kill and that wins us the game.

IF I WAS KROGAN I WOULD BE YOU ALLY AND I WOULD NOT PUSH TO HAVE YOU LYNCHED EVER!!! BECAUSE I CAN ONLY WIN WITH YOU!!!

Does that make sense to you. I cannot physically be Krogan and want you lynched.

It might be WIFOM or something... but I think it's likelier beeboy is just trying to fake push you as krogan when he really thinks you're salarian (or turian though that seems a bit less likely I guess). Then again I don't know what beeboy's thoughtspace really is so *shrugs*

[mhsmith0]

PS I'd rather lynch Suzune but am willing to hammer PV instead. Anyone have last words before I do?

PPS I think there are 7 votes on him: duppin mathblade shiro suzune zakk beeboy varsoon

[mhsmith0]

Well in that case...

Did someone say L-1?
VOTE: PeregriveV

[mhsmith0]

That's OK I'm like 80% sure I just hammered and it's twilight.

[mhsmith0]

Gg all! Was a lot of fun! Whoo asari!

[mhsmith0]

Obligatory

[mhsmith0]

Smith got fear killed by both wolf factions. Yeah, that's what I'm gonna tell myself lol

[mhsmith0]

Also thanks to both mods you did a great job! <3

[mhsmith0]

You'd have killed a human but asari had the numbers and the option to king make either side.

[mhsmith0]

You'd have killed a human but asari had the numbers and the option to king make either side.

Would have prefered to either lose or win tbh.

I tried really hard to win this

You played well. Nature of setup leads to this unfortunately

[mhsmith0]

I wanted to be dead night 1 and I survived the entire game lol.

Your and varsoons continued survival was one of the strangest aspects of the game tbh

[mhsmith0]

Fwiw, I'd say the game became unbalanced when turians and asari were allowed to claim in thread without consequence. Narrowing down # of humans SEEMS like a good idea but it also narrows down the space where Krogans and salarians can hide out.

Salarians especially had a strong incentive to hunt asari when e&a and two turians died (and shooting a turian instead of Beeboy was a ???????? move). Beeboy and math were claimed asari and survived the whole game, and I was fairly obvious asari and lasted a few nights. Meanwhile (per hebi) the Krogans were (sub optimally) aiming at humans and (even more sub optimally) missing (including I think hits on both geth ranger and asari me).

In a well designed game there's a mechanism to prevent neutrals from outing and controlling the thread. In this game that mechanism was the hostile scum factions. That mechanism for the most part wasn't used. Sub optimal night kills were (IMO) why it was fair for Krogans to draw instead of outright win.

[mhsmith0]

The worst thing in the game is that I couldn't have done shit to win from the start. At least that's how it feels.
I'm going to make a game with a third party who have an unwinnable wincon (that they think is winnable) and specifically invite all the Asari players and specifically put all the Asari players on this team and then tell everyone else that the Asari-shits can only win if EVERYONE ELSE IN THE GAME DECIDES THEY DO.

/in

[mhsmith0]

Zakk I think had solid night actions. Not sure anyone else really did and that includes me, who tried to give a journal to freaking FAQ2 my first day (and couldn't because I misread my role pm lol)

[mhsmith0]

For the curious, here's a gm post game comment on a similar issue (except in this case it was a scum leaning neutral who was SUPPOSED to be held in check by a town lyncher role)

Spoiler: .

Lyncher Role - Bromley and the d2 town suicide

With the very best of intentions this game was unbalanced when Zoomzip ignored his VC and did not vote to lynch Niakan on d2. Niakan was convinced that Constantine was the lyncher role given his dogged pursuit on Niakan.

Constantine made one of the biggest blunders to sabotage this town when he outed himself and ATE's roles unnecessarily in response to Niakan's d2 lie about finding ATE guilty. However, he was absolutely right about Niakan d2 and the need to lynch him based on Niakan's behaviours. Instead he was patronised and marginalised in thread. And pointing out to him that Niakan was independent is more of the same. If one examines what Niakan was doing you will see that he was the best scum hunter in the game - problem was he was hunting them so he could 'negotiate' in thread with them and protect them at all costs since they were his 'flock' (more on this later)

The following is what I wrote to ZZ after he exploded n2:

*sighs* Oh well, what can I say...there were a couple of infamous incidents of players (allegedly) not playing to their win conditions in Rolan's games I think and so rules at that time began to include a rule of "play to your win conditions" or I will Mod-kill you. These incidents caused some anger amongst GMs and players alike as the games were unbalanced/subverted as a result.

Play to your win conditions is so basic, so fundamental - it is essential to the balance of any game design

Fortunately, these incidents passed and this rule had gone back to the redundancy I always imagined it to be. I thought it redundant here. Seemingly not.

By giving you that win condition I have tried to give you the hard-wired motive to prioritise something potentially town essential to keep Niakan in check.

What follows is essentially my GM AAR as the town is surely doomed.

Niakan is certainly playing to his win conditions and is self-evidently trying to destroy the town as quickly as possible by outing every role he can manage to help the mafia kill royalty. While also outing his role to make sure they don't kill him. Even not prioritsing your 'personal' VC I don't see how it turned into doing the opposite of the other half. How is lynching a double voting townie or Robert Cecil better than killing a confirmed no-town multiple-liar destructive behaviour Jesuit priest? Niakan is pulling exactly the same trick he tried in Crunkus's recent game when he comes in at day end to try and make the town his bitch. Creating an environment of panic and confusion after lurking for the rest of the game day. How is that trick still working? Lynch the bastard.

The town knows Niakan is not town. Jesuit priests may not have been directly involved in this plot but they are enemies of the state. How likely are his claims that his non-town VCs are actually aligned with town VCs as he claims? If they were town aligned he'd be...town aligned and not be an enemy of the state. You personally know he is lying as he claims more than one priest in the game. Your PM tells you there is only 1. Why is he lying? Not to help the town clearly. How is his previous lie about his cop result therefore a pro-town scum trap? It cannot be. He isn't town and his claimed VCs have nothing to do with such a trick. In fact, quite the contrary since he needs to survive and he has totally exposed himself. So why is he lying?

So irrespective of all this I cannot understand how the town imagines the combination of Niakan not being town and his behaviour means he should not be lynched? Incredibly not a single person comments on him not being town and it is my belief that most if not all those living still think he has claimed town. He certainly went back to calling himself loyal when no one noticed. You still put him in Blue for example when he admits to being green.

He claims his VC is for a loyal Catholic to live? What are the odds that a Catholic priest distinguishes between loyal and disloyal Catholics? His job is to look after Catholics. That's why he is hiding underground and risking his life literally every day he remains in England. He can therefore win with town or scum, but he needs catholics to live. The mafia killed a loyal catholic n1. He knows that the faction 'richest' in Catholics are the scum so if he can help them win quickly he can win. He tells a lie and disappears for 48 hours (or whatever) which is incredibly anti-town and what does the town do in a protect the King game?

Constantine outs himself and ATE! WTF? He can call Niakan a liar without doing any of that. You out to validate Niakan (is this absentee somehow more important than the King that you make the King less safe to protect him?). WTF? This allows him to out himself to narrow the search further and keep him safe from the night kill. He then looks around and makes sure he goes after Kian who is not outed. kian is outed and lynched. What Kian is doing voting on anyone but Niakan is beyond me. We have an uncounter-claimed Cecil - how can he possibly be scum? Kian goes on about N0 messages when I have repeatedly confirmed no N0 actions.

Everyone's role is historically accurate. If everyone claimed the mafia are screwed unless they can fake a good claim, but of course that is why this is a protect the King game to stop the town doing that. What we have instead is the town partially outing as much as it can without making any reciprocal demands on the mafia. I have literally no idea what the town is doing. It has committed suicide on d2 and I am in despair of them. The inhibitor to Niakan playing this way was that he knows someone wants him dead. Someone who is hard-wired to want him dead if he takes liberties.

The mafia now know who the King is. They had 50:50 odds to kill him N2 but missed.

Incredibly to me no one on d2 even mentioned that Niakan had admitted to not being town. People kept talking about him being loyalist sided and relating that to ZZ's cop result. Constantine pointed out he could be Godfather, but the thing was you already knew he was! He got a loyal subject result when he isn't a loyal subject. He admits that - ergo the cop result must be false.

More in a bit

In this game, neutrals running amok benefited TOWN because they could freely hunt the opposing scum (which I was pretty much openly doing in thread even if I was doing a crap job of it) and were basically unlynchable. The check in this ability was the fact that opposing scum had a hard-wired incentive to NK them. Once the continued survival of varsoon and bee boy made it clear that the scum wouldn't bother to do this, the game became drastically town sided (before people decided that lynching confirmed town late was a good plan for some reason)

I'd also say this is why lurking was NOT incentivized by the game design. As long as salarians were trying to kill Asari, and krogans trying to kill turians, looking townie shouldn't have been particularly dangerous. But instead both scum factions chose to try and target humans, with the somewhat predictable consequence that they would sometimes miss and sometimes miss badly and accidentally shoot friendlies.

PS varsoon, you PROBABLY needed to find a way to convince the salarians in thread to eliminate the Asari. That's a hard line to toe though. But I think that was your only path, to get your kinda teammates to balance the scales. Then again, the downside was that pointing this out might have gotten the krogans on you. Once e&a and two turians died, though, it was nearly un winnable for you, due to circumstances outside your control.

[mhsmith0]

It kinda was. CTR gmd my first ever game, earlier this year(based on lambert simnel), this was one he did a couple years ago based on the gunpowder plot
Post game was at
http://www.playdiplomacy.com/forum/view ... 16&t=29748

[mhsmith0]

Yeah man, the fact that E&A flipped Salarian despite being so against me really rubbed me the wrong way

And then the same w shiro being Krogan but anti asari. The wifom this game

[mhsmith0]

It's all good. As much as I bellyache, I enjoyed playing with you all.
Cakez saving me from Beeboy's rubbish kill was 10/10

If I'd lost this game I might be salty for cakey for that but fortunately it worked out

I was also getting worried about math needlessly antagonizing town by proposing to intentional lynch humans. I think Beeboy dying would have made this game hard mode for asari lol.

[mhsmith0]

Turian gave a gun to asari and asari protected turian. What a country!

[mhsmith0]

RC was the dominate head in this game while we were playing,

I take no responsibility for actions in this game.

VOTE: Frozen Angel

wolfy post, passing the buck

[mhsmith0]

Yeah just make a vig instead of someone who can give kills to their enemy, like wtf. ;_;

I didn't want a purely Turian controlled kill though with no resource for the Asari to counter.

honestly i think that role was fine. optimal play was probably to give varsoon the gun, but varsoon might die so maybe send the gun to someone else (other than the claimed asari). it gives the gun maker something to think about, and is potentially pretty OP if played really well. Like, if Party Boat discovers Nahdia as a Turian and contacts klingon, then suddenly you have an interesting set of connections where klingon can feed nahdia guns every night and she continues to live. It's an unlikely outcome, but not impossible.

[mhsmith0]

Weren't people scum-reading ranger? If that was the case, why would either scum team shoot her? Like, it's 50-50 ranger is an ally (and if not, she can be pushed/lynched D2 for the town credit anyway), whereas you KNOW that varsoon (for krogans) and beeboy (for salarians) is very likely an enemy. idgi, although idgi for a bunch of night actions across the game so *shrugs*

[mhsmith0]

Can we get a report/list of night actions at some point? Would be interesting IMO.

[mhsmith0]

I liked when I black mailed Varsoon and derailed the thread for like 25 pages :')

^ reasons why salarians and krogans are supposed to be a check on turians and asari

[mhsmith0]

Btw will PTs be released at some point?

[mhsmith0]

<3 to all especially Asari bros