Kingdom Hearts - Game Over

[mastina]

Can you talk about shiro a bit more? I was pretty much hard town-reading FA's stuff, especially the ATE-spam, especially around when she ragequit, so I'm kinda struggling to see shiro as scum even if his iso has been fairly boring. Why is that boring ISO to you more scummy than, say, oversoul?

This is another post which makes me think Shiro is town btw: it's backtracking out of a solid townread, setting Shiro up for a mislynch down the road.

[mastina]

This is still scum with a greater awareness of the gamestate than they are letting on. It is also showing an immense focus on self-defense and an utter lack of actual scumhunting. House Connington did BUNDLELOADS of scumhunting. It was honestly shitty reasons for the most part, yeah. But it was ACTUALLY REASONS. Actual reads, with actual pushes. And that is utterly absent from Maxwell Puckett here.

And do you think that I'm bussing here?

Like, you've proclaimed that you don't bus (as if I'm sufficiently familiar w your scum meta to know that for sure), and have decided that I MUST know this about you and properly factor this into my read of both you and anyone you're pushing, while blithely not really giving a shit about the flip of it, which is really lazy reasoning on your end, and fraknly makes me wonder if you're just trying to bullshit it all while actively trying to fake your towntells.

Btw pay attention to the bolded.

At the time, mhsmith was voting MaxwellPuckett.
mhsmith was also pushing Oversoul as being scum.
This is him essentially admitting that, yes.
He actually

was

bussing.

[mastina]

Do you TR mhsmith? Want to help me wagon him?

VOTE: mhsmith0

OK, why do you think I'm scum?

We could also lynch within {Steven Quartz, mhsmith0, Shiro, Titus}, because the wagon is bad.

idk why mhsmith0 seems to be lurking this game.

are the closest thing to content you've had on me, except i don't understand why you seem to think that inactivity is AI for me, and I don't see why you actually TR mastina here, beyond "her wagon was bad", which is basicaly circular reasoning unless there's something of actual substance there, which I haven't seen from you. Why is she town?

^This is another instance of an interaction that I see as potential scumbuddies for what it's worth. This one's actually a reasonably likely one, too.

[mastina]

Mastina must go

This is kind of an empty SR here, on a slot you naked voted but otherwise haven't talked about. I liked the naked vote when it happened, but there's been nothing at all from you since. Why is mastina scum? Is she buddying you? Is she bussing me? I'd really like to get SOME kind of content from your slot, especially since the hydra was basically a big nothingburger

I'll admit I have conflicting feelings about this one though. On the one hand this is pretty blatant coaching.
On the other hand, would mhsmith actually coach a scumbuddy in-thread especially when I'm reasonably sure off of past experience in prior scumgames that Anti always gives scum daychat? I don't think so.
On the one hand this is distancing without pushing.

On the other hand this looks to me overall like setting up a mislynch down the road.

Overall the other hand is what I'm feeling more of though. I don't think Not_Mafia is scum here.
I really don't.

[mastina]

VOTE: oversoul
I guess I'll listen on Titus if someone wants to push it, but if she's trying to save her buddy I'd rather just flip her buddy first

(This isn't relevant but in hindsight if I had seen this post I would have NEVER EVER voted Titus yesterday and woulda parked my vote on mhsmith but I'm only just now reading this post so this is the first I'm learning of it. Whoops.)

[mastina]

It makes a lot of sense that last scum would be a roleblocker based on the Titus role, which raises Alisae's stock a bit.

Also off of Ramicus's role, which specifies that he can be roleblocked.

[mastina]

(snip)

Holy hell kill this
VOTE: Statler

I still maintain that this is not very likely the way you go in to bus a scumbuddy.
Like.
Honestly.
This was in of itself.
One of the original reasons I townread Not_Mafia.

This post alone is literally 50% of the reason why Not_Mafia was an early townread of mine and Oversoul a scumread of mine.
It was just blatantly scum from Oversoul and not in a scum-voting-scumbuddy way.

[mastina]

And yes, I'm a little annoyed about the implication that you didn't do so.

I was focused on other things at the time.
I'm a little bit busy as-is right now and I want to get to the analysis you gave for me but I haven't had the ability to set aside the time to really look at it in-depth yet.

[mastina]

but I like the fact that she scumread Overlord for saying she couldn't read him.

?

I am with you there. I do not remember seeing her reasoning for scumreasing me at all. Another classic Martina thing to do.
Also, Steven Universe have you played with Mastina other than the game you keep mentioning?

The more I look at this the more I think Creature as not scum and Steven Universe similarly so.

[mastina]

Has Statler even addressed the votes on them? I did a shitty veto + f but could not find anything.

So while I acknowledge this could be a scum player continuing to distance/bus their scumbuddy, I don't think it was doing so. Oversoul's sole content at this point was pushing Not_Mafia and defending himself from me. If Not_Mafia were scum, then I'd expect Oversoul to be doing other things. To make his push on Not_Mafia not stand out so much.

Plus, there's the angle that I don't think the scumteam sets things up where they have one lurkerscum (Oversoul) dueling another lurkerscum (Not_Mafia). What is the benefit from having done so? As lurkerscum, they wouldn't need to make this effort at all. Nobody would be paying attention to either of them.

If you want you can push the idea of "because nobody was looking that's what makes it good distancing", but it more reads to me as Oversoul trying to deflect attention off of him (a lurker) and onto a different similar player (a different lurker) that isn't scum. Oversoul was under some early pressure. I don't think he wanted to die. I don't think he had in mind from the get-go a bus. Instead I think that he wanted to deflect attention away from himself--and why would he deflect attention away from himself if said attention was onto a scumbuddy?

I lack the words to explain this properly but I just really don't think Not_Mafia is scum being distanced here. I really, really think that Oversoul is deflecting attention away from himself in an attempt to hide his scumminess. Which works best when deflecting onto town.

[mastina]

VOTE: Mastina

Yes I realize I'm a sucker for people picking a fight with me when they know it's not something they're going to win (just like I tend to scumread people picking a fight with me when they are under a reasonable belief it's something they WILL win), but this is just flat-out ridiculous as an angle to take as scum.

What's the hope here?
That voting his strongest defender will make people play the wifom game and think he's not that stupid as scum?
That voting me will make me townread him even harder? (Well it worked but be honest do you think Not_Mafia actually has the brains to think of a move like that?)
That voting me will look like such a stubborn denial of reality that he can't be scum?
That there's still interest in lynching me when that ship has long-since sailed?

I don't see it.
What I see is a player who is true to my original description, way back in 30: town, no matter how much you would hope him to not be out of whatever annoyance you may hold.

[mastina]

"Btw it's at about this point I would normally vote, but I'm voteless outside of mylo/lylo, so."
If this claim is true, which went from like 95% to 70 something after Mastina continues to refuse to vote, then if Mastina votes when we think it could be lylo or mylo and there actually is a vote, then we know that it is. The rest of the post was explaining why that doesn't lose the game to a quicklynch.

I keep going back and forth on mastina. One the one hand, I don't think this claim makes any sense coming from scum. At least as a gambit. For that reason I believe the vote limitation. I do believe there is probably more to her role though. However, this is all not alignment indicative. I think some of her responses have been awful. Egotistically referring to myself, but for whatever reason Mastina gets under my skin with her wrong reads of me. Now, itlepip, what do you mean we would know it is Mylo/Lylo?

For what it's worth on my first pass-through on this I didn't mention this one way or another because I could see it both ways and that remains true. I can see this as being an interaction with town but my instinct is more inclined right now to be that he's talking to a scumbuddy. His push here feels fundamentally different than his push on Not_Mafia. When pushing Not_Mafia he gave at least the illusion of doing something, but his question here is flagrantly him doing nothing. It's an empty interaction, thrown out for the sake of having an interaction.

[mastina]

Itlepip, please address my comment (or the comments if others around that time) concerning the setup.

This is another one of those "could be either" ones which when I look at it now I just feel like it's empty.

[mastina]

If not Not_Mafia for you, then who?

MaxwellPuckett > itlepip/Alisae > Creature. In that order.

[mastina]

Wait you were voting SW the entire game, what do you mean 'pip can be town'. You haven't even mentioned Sly this game. Like I just read your whole iso is like 3 minutes, and it sucks and it isn't going to help anyone sort you or find progressions. Also 100% not trying to avoid learning LaTex, wtf even is this program.

Yes, yes I was. My vote was kind of rotting there which is why I moved it to Sky. I don't think his posts are authentic. They have this forced feeling to them. I get the impression his posting is more "I have to post to look active" rather than I think xyz.

I'm curious why you eventually find yourself on the same wagon with me after this post.

I believe I noted this interaction before, but looking at it now the reaction just feels off, RE: Oversoul/itlepip. The interactions between them feel forced and insincere. Yes we know Oversoul was scum and so he's going to be forcing everything to some extent but this is a two-way dynamic. The interactions between itlepip and Oversoul simply don't look organic and natural in a scum-town way. Furthermore, there's the weird focus especially with things like the bolded. The whole thing feels like distancing, feels staged, with them not actually having anything backing it.

If memory serves in spite of itlepip noting this he didn't do anything with Oversoul, and Oversoul went out of his way to keep an itlepip townread in spite of noting things which should have called the read into question. It's just all kinds of fake. And his focus on Sly is something I don't think he pushes if they are scumbuddies. Yes, it's not exactly a grand display of scum theater, but it's the subtle, small, nuanced nature of the push which makes me feel like it is genuinely a scum-pushing-town thing rather than scum-distancing.

Which, again.
Is why I feel like Alisae shouldn't be getting so much leeway and why the SlySly hate is unjustified.

[mastina]

I'm not convinced that Oversoul would go out of his way so blatantly to orchestrate that townslip with itlepip.

No need to.
There's no need for the scum to plan a slip and then plan an interaction around the slip.
If itlepip is scum I'm sure the slip is something he developed in a spur-of-the-moment type deal, and then after the fact the scumteam would just roll with it.

[mastina]

If not Not_Mafia for you, then who?

MaxwellPuckett > itlepip/Alisae > Creature. In that order.

Go back and look at Creature's thread presence around the time of the fake dayvig - do you believe that scum!Creature would hang around in thread when that happened? Because I think that he'd have to have gained a huge amount of confidence as scum to do so.

The only reason Creature is included is because I have literally everyone else as town my love.
Even Creature is far more likely town than not.
It's just that if I run out of places for scum to be yes he's one of the first I'd hang after that.

Not_Mafia ~= Creature in my reads in fact (I waver on exact positioning), but you specifically asked me if not Not_Mafia then who, and thus my answer excluded Not_Mafia.

[mastina]

(Also btw fuck the idea of trusting in a tracker to win the game. That's one of the reasons why I'm not going to give Alisae a pass off of claim.)

[mastina]

What was your opinion of itlepip at this point in the game?
For what is worth, I think there is sketchy shit going on with SlySly and KeySkies, but I think it is town sketchy shit.

So I've already explained my stance on why the MaxwellPuckett interactions in the infamous Oversoul wall are sketchy-as-fuck, but these two stand out to me on a second go through. I get conflicting stuff on players like Creature and Not_Mafia, but here, the first seems oddly out-of-place and the second seems like scum backtracking out of something they genuinely didn't see coming.

If Oversoul were SlySly's scumbuddy, he would have known exactly what SlySly's role would be and exactly what SlySly was planning to do: what he was going to claim and when he was going to claim. But here I think Oversoul shows a reaction where he genuinely didn't know about what SlySly was going to do. He also shades SlySly in spite of unvoting him: he calls SlySly's claim "sketchy shit", and while he calls it town-sketchy-shit, he's still setting up for a second SlySly push down the line.

In contrast the bit about itlepip is just so out of place. He's asking another hollow, flat question about the slot he has allegedly already sorted as town. Why does Oversoul care about plantsy's read on itlepip specifically? I can understand caring about plantsy's reads if he's intending to fake a scumread on plantsy, but why itlepip specifically? It stands out as being insincere, in a scumbuddies way.

[mastina]

Arguably, if you look at both slips Ramicus should be the one that is immediately suspect considering he made the slip after itlepip and saw that itlepip was getting townread for that slip. That makes it much more likely Ramicus could have fabricated the slip. However, at that time, you run against that line of thinking with the townread on Ramicus and a scumread on itle out of seemingly nowhere.

There's also this.
I know it's tempting to go.
"Oversoul wouldn't be that blatant, would he?"
But.
I really just think.
Oversoul was in fact that blatant.

In essentially saying, "Why the fuck did you scumread my scumbuddy's townslip and yet townread this town player's townslip?"
That's what Oversoul's beef with plantsy seems to boil down to.

[mastina]

I've never been good at finding scum (except for newb scum for whatever reason). So I'll just stick with trying to form the best town bloc. From strongest to weakest. Most people are null this game.

KeySkies
SlySly
Imperium (Tammy don't make me regret this)
itlepip
Jae

And for what it's worth if there's scum in here it is itlepip/Alisae. I just really don't think it's SlySly.

Look at how SlySly is lumped in there with KeySkiies. Yes. That is something scum have reason to do as well. But I fully believe that Oversoul was treating them as a packaged deal. While them being a packaged deal COULD be a scum-Oversoul having a convenient excuse to townread a scumbuddy, I just don't think he would do so, it's hard to vocalize why except with the thought of it just feeling like not a scum tone, not a scum way of doing it essentially. The way Oversoul handled it, the way Oversoul went about it, I just think that SlySly is town here and if there's scum here it'd be itlepip.

[mastina]

Also for what it's worth: I don't think Creature is overall this active as town.
He's got a two-page iso this game which isn't exactly the easiest of feats. (Yes I know he can fluff post, butstill.)
This is a bad way of explaining it.
And yes I know I need to read his posts more.
But when he gives content I've usually been satisfied with it.
And when he posts I've largely liked his posting.

I do need to take a look at his interactions.
But overall I don't think he's scum.

[mastina]

Mhsmith's push honestly felt far more forced to me than anything else so far so VOTE: Msmith. I get the logic behind those kind of early pushes but I don't believe he believes what he is saying in his posts. Also trying to figure out loved or hated or 'test' them is stupid and you guys should stop. Loved is almost certainly a real claim and claiming hated is 90% true. It doesn't tell you anything either way to who cares.

This post is a little bit weird: he is voting for mhsmith and says he doesn't like mhsmith, and yet he's saying not to test the loved/hated...when mhsmith is the aforementioned hated claim. He makes absolutely no acknowledgement of this. In that he's simultaneously soft-defending mhsmith while placing a vote down on mhsmith.

[mastina]

Hi Max
137 is all the thoughts I have
Max can probably die though, he seems on to me.

This interaction also felt a bit forced for what it's worth.

[mastina]

I agree that there were many unnecessary words in that post, but I don't get why meaningless words in one long post is so much worse than meaningless words in small posts. The read that mastina wanted a longer more in depth post without really much to say is true, but I don't think that is very scummy.

I also don't like this btw. It does read as a white knight of me to get on my good side early-on.

[mastina]

That said man this is an easy lurk scum start of the game so far and the more we pressure a reactive player like that slot, the easier it is to coast by.

I would feel a lot better about this statement if he were to have actually attached names to this statement! (Basically it's the Tywin Lannister issue in a sense.)

You'd think that this part would be that:

I still have limited reads and not the best game sense, so I would rather see pressure on smith who I think is almost as scummy but with a fraction of the content.

...But it's really not? It's unrelated. "I think scum are in easy lurk coasting mode", and "I think mhsmith is scummy and lacks content". There is a stream where you can connect the ideas, yes. But as presented in the post, the two are largely disconnected. They're in the same paragraph but they FEEL like two entirely different, separate thoughts. Two split trains on different tracks.

I don't think this is presentation, either. I don't think this is a playstyle quirk where itlepip just had bad wording and thus the ideas meant to be connected were not. I just flat-out think that the thoughts were unrelated, or originally meant to be with the thought of connecting them being an afterthought. That any resemblance between the two is either coincidence or tacked on at the very end as something he didn't set out to say.

(For the record the mhsmith push was itself something I see as null btw.)

[mastina]

Does anyone like anything mhsmith has done so far? Like his iso is aggressively bad and it is annoying that nobody else seems to care.

I realize this is a push on scum, and an early one at that, but.

I'm pretty sure itlepip is capable of explaining things?
I'm pretty sure itlepip is capable of describing the whys and hows of things?

So if he really felt this way.
Why the lack of an actual push on mhsmith?

It's one thing to just sit there and say a player is scum and ask why nobody else is supporting it.
It's quite another to give reasons, reference posts, create a case, and so on and so forth and actually PUSH for the lynch.

In other words, itlepip was saying mhsmith was scum, but he wasn't PUSHING mhsmith as scum and I'm pretty sure itlepip as town is more than capable of doing exactly that? I don't have the best of memory recollection of itlepip (I've only seen a handful of his games that I can vaguely recall), but I remember specifically his ability to produce a large volume of words on players he wants to push.

Why was that absent?

[mastina]

743: love this post, but

I am also super scared by Mastina from it

, if I switch my opinion and want to kill her later this sort of posting is going to make it impossible.

I feel like there are things in this post that I don't like outside of this that I could also quote.
But I also just have this overwhelming feeling.
This is something I felt at the time but couldn't reference because For Us was at the time ongoing and by the time it wasn't I had forgotten about this, but.

This post gave me a very.
Very.
VERY.
Strong sense of deja vu.

[mastina]

{Imperium Mastina Jae}
mild town{

Oversoul: Some decent posts

RM Key: overconfident town}
Null{Plantsy: haven't analyzed yet, hard slot Leon: back and forth mild good posts and bad SW: no clue Sly: none of their posts I can remember without looking back, but I do remember some content. RL:Didn't like slot till huge emotion burst, now we wait till Shiro actually does something}
mild scum/can kill{Ram msmith SQ: forgot was playing Max Creature }Another game where I can only get townreads...

Ooh look at what I found. This readslist is pretty atrocious. The townreads are all explainable enough, save the critical one: Oversoul. What were these "decent posts" of his? At the time, Oversoul's last post was 843. Which of his 14 or so posts was itlepip calling good? If Oversoul were a proper townread as itlepip implied there should have been a proper explanation. Yet there wasn't.

Most of these null explanations are pretty bad as well, but most of the scumreads are also unexplained. In particular, why not fix the read on Steven Quartz with an iso? What makes Ramicus and MaxwellPuckett be scumreads?

[mastina]

pedit dejavu why?

Because it's almost word for word what Human Sequencer said about MariaR in For Us.

[mastina]

Wait you were voting SW the entire game, what do you mean 'pip can be town'. You haven't even mentioned Sly this game. Like I just read your whole iso is like 3 minutes, and it sucks and it isn't going to help anyone sort you or find progressions.

This is ADDRESSING OVERSOUL. I repeat. 950 is addressing Oversoul's 949. Immediately after itlepip had said this:

{mild town

Oversoul: Some decent posts

}

I repeat.

{mild town

Oversoul: Some decent posts

}

{

mild town

Oversoul:

Some decent posts

}

Why the 180 on Oversoul like that? When he had literally just gone over the slot before and come to the complete opposite conclusion about Oversoul's posting? The whole spiel sounds ridiculously fake and artificial. itlepip's stance on Oversoul is not a genuine read whatsoever.

[mastina]

BTW rereading it Creature you need to do a readlist because you literally only have 1 read so far and it isn't even on the person you are voting for.

Almost the pot calling the kettle black.

itlepip had given reads--yes. He had. In 916. He did basically nothing to progress that forward. essentially all his posting following that is largely empty: hollow pushes he doesn't follow up on and actually use the contents of. What did he do with, say, 1334? Most of his posts read as barely more than prod dodges at that stage. Throwing shit around but not actually looking for any of it to stick. Something to look good while not actually doing good.

[mastina]

At the time stuff like 641 is better than anything you had from Sly, Ram, creature, Max. Trying to sort any of those slots is a pain in the butt, Over has gone down after whatever 949 was, but overall just a meh slot in a game with a lot of meh to crap slots.

This is also about the most convenient stance to take on a scumbuddy and essentially

the very fucking thing people accused me of doing

. (As in, the thing which is my scum meta.) Saying that, yes, this slot which is scum is indeed scum, but no there are better pushes, essentially.

[mastina]

UNVOTE: but annoyed.

I actually liked 1474!

...Until I saw this.
And then I just went all sorts of at it because the whole exchange went from looking like frustration which might even be town frustration to instead looking like putting on a show. Which is exactly what I feel like I saw. 1474, with 1480, looked good. Yet when he almost immediately unvotes like this after that, the whole exchange just feels forced and faked because if the emotions were real then I don't think he'd be so easily swayed away from his course of action.

Which is why it looks like a show, an act.
A town player emotionally compromised isn't going to withdraw the moment it becomes inconvenient because they genuinely feel the way they are saying they do, and thus, they are going to make moves which are--tactically speaking--mistakes.

A scum player who is putting on a show is going to withdraw the moment it becomes inconvenient, the moment their continued presence begins to lose them favors instead of gaining them favors. And this is EXACTLY the feeling I get from itlepip's unvote here.

[mastina]

mastina read this scumgame by Oversoul and note the ease with which he interacts with his partners (Sonic Boom, hydra of Titus and Metal Sonic; Bacon and Egg, hydra of Wisdom and GiF) and you'll probably want to reconsider your interpretation of the ones with Not_Mafia in this game.

Quick skim tells me no, not really. His treatment of his scumbuddies there just feels like something altogether different from his treatment of Not_Mafia.

[mastina]

I am liking Max a lot more and plantsy a lot less in the last few pages.

I realize this doesn't mean anything if MaxwellPuckett is town, buuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuut.
Remind me to point this out to y'all if MaxwellPuckett flips scum.

[mastina]

itlepip is in this game I remember you
VOTE: itlepip

^This vote feels very very very very very fake.

[mastina]

I gotta say yeah 308 makes me wanna vote FA just cause Ive experienced what RM is putting down before and I haven't even read yet lmao

This also stuck out to me as scum coasting.
On that note I'd like to reiterate: a lot of MaxwellPuckett's posting will be me pointing out how Maxwell is essentially doing nothing because that's the majority of what's there to see.

[mastina]

Guess who just got hecking prodded
I'm on page 8 of my readthrough
VOTE: plantsy
Bad entrance.
(<3 to u though)

What was bad about plantsy's entrance, Max?

[mastina]

I wanna play but my catchup rn is at like, page 20. Jae i appreciate you keeping rl in mind, ill let u know that its really just me being lazy abt catching up, im ok. =:)
Still though, thanks. <3
Anyway, did someone claim Sora already? Thats kind of a pain. Who wants to tldr recent events so I can play while i finish catching up?

MaxwellPuckett, the entire step of the way, just has an aura of being fake. It's not the lack of content frequently (though that's also a problem), it's not the lack of quality of the content (though that's also a problem), it's just that everything MaxwellPuckett posts at this point in the game feels utterly hollow.

In particular while this whole post sounded artificial, the last three sentences (bottom line/paragraph) stand out above the rest as just being so...
...Empty. There's no emotion in them. There's no passion. There's no life. There's just a dull emotionless "oh, that happened, well that sucks" to it.

That is not the MaxwellPuckett I know as town. The MaxwellPuckett I know as town is full of life and energy and pushes strongly from the get-go, yet this MaxwellPuckett is lackluster and lifeless.

[mastina]

I don't buy she actually feels like re-evaluating them.

I don't recall saying I did.
Because to be honest I really don't.
The only reason I'd ever have for wanting to change my reads is just how much wish-fulfillment, "too good to be true" would be within them.

I'm not really posting with the intention of changing my mind.
I'm critically analyzing, sure, yes. I'm more than willing to point out things which make me doubt my reads.
But I'm also explaining as clearly as I can why in spite of that doubt I am overall choosing to stick by and stand by those reads.
And I am pushing the reasons for them.

That's not the best way of wording things; it's actually pretty shitty.
But basically.

I might not know

exactly

who the scum are.
But I feel like I have a reasonably good idea of who the scum AREN'T, with at least a fair indication of who the scum could be, and this is me showing most of my process.

I'm not wasting your time by showing reads like Imperium/JaeReed/Leonshade. (And mostly not plantsy either.) These are reads everyone already knows and shares and are universally town meaning there's no risk of a moronic mislynch. What I AM doing is showing things like SlySly, Not_Mafia, and the like, where things aren't as clear-cut and explaining my overall stance there, be it good, bad, or somewhere in-between.

This isn't me tunneling, so much as it is me having a few specific beliefs and sharing them, start to finish, with others. The scales in my mind have their weights constantly shifting, but I'm showing the overall picture as it were, the essence of my viewpoint, my stances, and my feelings. Is it possible you are town, why yes, yes it is. But do I think you are town, not really no. And I'm not going to lie and say I do when I don't.

[mastina]

Ah, I love the smell of dead scum in the morning.

<3
I'll read this tomorrow but I should mention this now for nerds out here something vaguely relevant to this game:
For the first time in my life, tonight I got to watch Hercules. <3

[mastina]

So I'm trying to figure out something here. Mastin is his strongest scum read and he'd been pushing her decently. I'm trying to figure it if this is a case of him jumping onto a growing town wagon he was fake scum reading or he jumped on in the fifth position because he thought he needed to be on this wagon for the town cred.

Good money's on the latter!

[mastina]

mastina itlepip's tone in this scumgame (I believe his most recent) is far more assured than what he's displayed here.

Is there a non-multiball game you could link to? Fire and Ice is a multiball setup meaning genuine scumhunting regardless of alignment. (That being said I will grant you the itlepip of that game was incredibly fake and the itlepip of this game isn't as obviously fake, so.)

[mastina]

what rock were you living under during the 90s?

I'M TELLING YOU I'VE WANTED TO SEE THE FILM SINCE THE NINETIES BUT FOR WHATEVER REASON MY PARENTS NEVER THOUGHT OF LETTING ME AT THE TIME AND NOWADAYS THEY THINK DISNEY IS TOO PAINFUL TO WATCH FOR SOME ABSURD REASON.

[mastina]

Just as long as she's seen Xena, I'm not *too* worried about her.

What to expect from me:

[mastina]

(But seriously,

Just as long as she's seen Xena, I'm not *too* worried about her.

I'VE ALWAYS WANTED TO, I KNOW, I'M TERRIBLE I NEVER GOT THE CHANCE TO WATCH IT EVEN THOUGH I WANTED TO IT'S ONE OF THOSE SHOWS ON MY WISH-LIST OKAY)










(Guess I know what we'll be watching on our next date. )

[mastina]

I haven't seen either.

Double-date time.

[mastina]

(Xena was a TV show. I'm crying for your soul.)

(I knew that much. But it and the series which spawned it, the live action Hercules, are things I want to see which I've always wanted to see. I LIKED THIS SORT OF THING AS A KID AND IT WAS JUST SOMETHING I WISH I HAD MORE OF.)

[mastina]

VOTE: SlySly

HURT: SlySly.
Please claim.

[mastina]

I'm Ventus. Informed BG neighbor. I protected KeyS both nights.

Not what I was expecting.
I was more under the impression you were going for a passive of always targeting Sora, and/or having some watcher-type ability (maybe Voyeur, maybe watcher) which would be a Sora passive.

[mastina]

bodyguard + white mage + split jailkeeper seem awkwardly strong in combination; I'm not really confident that SQ could be telling the truth here.

I'd lynch SlySly first.

[mastina]

Looks like bookieing me was the right choice

I still don't think Not_Mafia is scum here.
I really, really don't.

But I really, really wish I could.
I really, really wish I did.
Would make my life so much simpler and easier if he were scum.

At this point.
He's the type of player who I think is town but.
I'm just.
I'm not going to fight against his lynch.
He's just.

Not. worth. it.

[mastina]

So it is possible the protectives are town.

I believe this to be the case!
But if one were scum Steven Quartz would not be my first call.

[mastina]

JaeReed
plantsy
Leonshade
Imperium
KeySkiies

Steven Quartz
SlySly
Shiro
Creature

Not_Mafia

MaxwellPuckett/Alisae

Remains about this readswise for me btw. I'm mostly compiling this for my own sake but essentially.

If there's scum in the top tier then the town as a whole should universally agree right here and now to concede on the spot no questions asked.

I remain confident in Steven Quartz being town.
I still think SlySly is town.
I still think Shiro is town fairly strongly.
Creature I go back and forth on but is still more town than not.

I still don't think Not_Mafia is scum but at this point I don't care about advocating this.
And I still don't like either MaxwellPuckett or Alisae.

[mastina]

I'm just going to abuse my conftown'd ness and lurk until Plantsy's dead.

A good way to ensure you'll make it to lylo I'll give you that.

[mastina]

After BIOCHEMISTRY, I'll likely ignore associatives.

I mean.
I told you then that scum fucking bussed.
And this game I'm telling you this game too.
Scum fucking bussed.

[mastina]

SlySly [2] -

Oversoul

, itlepip
MaxwellPuckett [6] -

Ramcius

,

plantsy, JaeReed

, Creature,

mhsmith0

, Shiro

Oversoul [9] - MaxwellPuckett, Creature,

Leonshade

, Steven Quartz,

mhsmith0

,

plantsy, Imperium

, Shiro,

KeySkiies

Not Voting:

Oversoul

, SlySly,

Titus

, itlepip, Not_Mafia,

Ramcius

,

JaeReed

, mastina

I mean.
Off the Oversoul wagon the possible scum are SlySly/itlepip/Not_Mafia. Is there a combination there you think is all-scum? If not, then scum fucking bussed with mhsmith and at least one scumbuddy (possibilities being MaxwellPuckett/Creature/Steven Quartz/Shiro) also bussed.

On MaxwellPuckett the only non-mastina wagon D1 aside from the lynch wagon on Oversoul we had mhsmith there and also Shiro/Creature too. (Okay so this kinda sorta does look bad for Creature/Shiro I'll admit. But there's damn-good reason both are below others on my readslist I suppose.)

[mastina]

So max and Not_Mafia are the last scum?

This is the type of posting which instinctively I want to call more scum than not but which vaguely experience tells me to resist the urge of.

[mastina]

Should I claim?

At this point a failure to protect you would be basically a scumclaim (Imperium needs none, KeySkiies is covered, etc.), so you should be fine. <3

[mastina]

Err...by fine, I mean, fine to NOT CLAIM.
Stupid ambiguity.

[mastina]

I think Maxwell is too genuine to be scum rn tbh.

The problem with that is almost every fucking player this game has been genuine.

Even mhsmith had some genuine in his posting; that didn't make him town.

In another game being genuine or not genuine might be useful in townreading/scumreading players. But I've come to the conclusion that in

this specific game

, using it is worthless.

The townbloc is town for other reasons aside from genuineness.
The players outside the townbloc are outside the townbloc for other reasons aside from genuineness.

Genuineness might help enhance aspects of a read.
And in some games be useful enough to be the basis of a read. (I'd even wager most games!)
But in

this specific game

.
I don't think it's enough.

[mastina]

But I like claiming. *whines*

Down boy/girl. Sit. Stay.

[mastina]

If Maxwell's scum, then regardless of N_M's alignment, I see mhsmith as the only scum on that Maxwell wagon. Creature is a pretty strong townread at this point, and I don't think scum was interested in bussing anyone D1.

What would be a good idea to check out if you believe this is true is the stance of the players on Oversoul near, but prior to, the gladiate on him. Specifically, those off the wagon (itlepip/Not_Mafia/SlySly) compared to those ON the wagon (MaxwellPuckett/Creature/Steven Quartz/Shiro).

People who changed stance post-gladiate = more likely scum by your theory, yes?
...Of course my theory is that no the scum had no fear of bussing and did so freely but that's me and this is you, so.

Looks like scum as a whole was pretty spread out, which is more support for the lurker/low communication theory of the scumteam.

This was more or less my conclusion. VCA of D1 was like deja vu to camn's revenge. There was a lack of cohesion altogether, suggesting scum were by and large happy with the gamestate.

However.
Problem:
With the

possible

exception of Creature. (Who you're townreading anyway.)
That doesn't exactly help narrow it down, now, does it?
Who

wouldn't

you call a lurker? MaxwellPuckett? (In the lynch pool; largely inactive for large swathes of the game.) Steven Quartz? (Not out of the lynch pool; not exactly known for content.) Shiro? (Not out of lynch pool; known lurker.) SlySly? (Not exactly a lurker but certainly low-content. And not out of the lynch pool.) itlepip? (Alisae's in the lynch pool; itlepip is a lower-poster.) Not_Mafia? (Don't think I need to explain this one.)

It's true no matter what the scumteam is.
Literally any combination of those names.
I would call a lurker scumteam.

Though that does remind me of a technique I haven't used much: pair analysis.
This would actually be a viable usage of it!

The possible pairs at this point are:
Creature-MaxwellPuckett
Creature-Steven Quartz
Creature-Shiro
Creature-SlySly
Creature-Alisae
Creature-Not_Mafia

MaxwellPuckett-Steven Quartz
MaxwellPuckett-Shiro
MaxwellPuckett-SlySly
MaxwellPuckett-Alisae
MaxwellPuckett-Not_Mafia

Steven Quartz-Shiro
Steven Quartz-SlySly
Steven Quartz-Alisae
Steven Quartz-Not_Mafia

Shiro-SlySly
Shiro-Alisae
Shiro-Not_Mafia

SlySly-Alisae
SlySly-Not_Mafia.

Those 20 scumteam combos are the only possibilities at this point. It's just a matter of eliminating them through processing things. (Something I think I could manage if I could actually get my head coherent.)

[mastina]

I'm sorry you're having a bad day.

You two look like you could both use a hug from your girlfriend. <3

[mastina]

I just get a lack of scum from him, moreso than a presence of his town game.

The problem I have with accepting this as a valid defense is that this is true of basically the entire playerbase right now this game.

Who

isn't

in the "lack of scum" category?

Very few players.

I prefer my townreads to be based off of things which make a player town (which all the townbloc has)--not things which make them simply not be scum (which is all the players outside the townbloc essentially).

[mastina]

K.
I'm Aqua, a modified Hider. I can't target players, only flavour. I don't get any feedback on who I target, but I'm basically a normal hider besides that. Just w/o a lot of the utility, unless I get tracked or something similar. Should I claim past targets too?

This is me.
Still not moving my vote.

[mastina]

Well, I guess we will have to seek scum in SlySly/SQ.

OR

Here's an idea.

If we think there's scum in the roleclaims which makes sense since this is a fucking role madness game and the scum are going to claim power roles.

We lynch off of scumhunting, not off of claim.
And thus ignore MaxwellPuckett's claim altogether and run MaxwellPuckett up anyway for being the scummiest player we have.

[mastina]

{KeySkiies, Imperium, mastina, Leonshade, plantsy, Alisae, Steven Quartz}
{MaxwellPuckett, Creature}
{N_M, SlySly, Shiro}

I want to trust your top tier to be accurate. (The names in there I otherwise wouldn't are Alisae and Steven Quartz.)
The game gets much easier if I can.

But the scum are going to have real roles or if not, fakeclaims which they can't easily be caught by.

Still.
There is some utility in potentially maximizing role usage.

We do need to lynch a player.
So we do need someone we won't get utility out of.
You're busy discussing how to make MaxwellPuckett self-vig which I'd be interested in if I thought it was ever legitimately going to happen (it won't).
But included should also be SlySly protecting you. KeySkiies is covered by Steven Quartz. (Though honestly I'd personally prefer Steven Quartz to protect Leonshade or plantsy since quite frankly a scumteam who'd kill KeySkiies is a scumteam who is asking to lose; he really doesn't need to be protected because he's helping the scum, so.)

Imperium is bulletproof. Scum can risk that not being full bulletproof if they want but if they're wrong and it is, well then they hand the town an extra lynch, so. They're free to try but probably won't. My death is no big loss so I certainly shouldn't be included. This would theoretically leave Leonshade and plantsy open to the nightkill (unless as I want Steven Quartz protects one of them), but I'd rather you live than them. I value all three of yours' reads about equally in spite of how all three of you have differing reads. The teamwork is about equal, the accuracy is something hard to establish one way or another, and so on and so forth. What makes me want you to be protected is simple:

plantsy

should

be open to attack. Now. plantsy is town. Period. End of discussion. No ifs, ands, or buts. Buuuuuuuuuuuuut. In spite of them being town. Of those in the townbloc, they are probably the most doubted as such. (Well I'm probably more but I'm not important, so.) They are the first of the townbloc people would suspect if they began to suspect the townbloc. They are also a slot which BoonSkiies is voteparking with zero intention of moving--being the vote target of the IC might be tremendously stupid on the part of the IC, but it goes to demonstrate a principle.

It's daring the scum to make a sub-optimal play, essentially. If scum kill plantsy. For a start it forces BoonSkiies to move their world view. It also affirms the townness of the rest of the townbloc. It gives strength to it. It would reaffirm our positions and give us greater conviction. Now, obviously. No deaths in the townbloc is better than deaths in the townbloc. But I think that you can maybe understand what I'm trying to say here? Not sure if it comes across well. It's essentially that scum killing plantsy is the worst possible kill they can make, yet we want to force them to make it instead of a better kill.

Soyeah. SlySly should be parked on defending you.

[mastina]

Ok, Jae. I dont believe that claim at all lmao

Sadly.
Neither do I.
And yet I

still

don't think he's scum in SPITE of that claim.

[mastina]

mastina itlepip's tone in this scumgame (I believe his most recent) is far more assured than what he's displayed here.

Is there a non-multiball game you could link to? Fire and Ice is a multiball setup meaning genuine scumhunting regardless of alignment. (That being said I will grant you the itlepip of that game was incredibly fake and the itlepip of this game isn't as obviously fake, so.)

Micro 592 (scum with Maestro)
Micro 591 (SK)
Mini 1792 (scum with AlpacaAlpaca, played under an alt)
Micro 620 (scum with FrozenAngel, same alt)
n1689 (scum with bluebloodedtoffee)

Okay admittedly his scumgame looks pretty consistently awful and his iso this game...doesn't, so.
Point in favor of Alisae.

[mastina]

<3

<3

[mastina]

Are you fully caught up yet?

Just about!

Btw one thing I should note is that convenient claims are more likely to be scum claims.
SlySly's got a bodyguard; he doesn't die, it can be conveniently said he simply protected the wrong person.
MaxwellPuckett's got a flavor hide; Max doesn't die, it can be conveniently said to simply not be a flavor in the game.
So that's something to consider.

That being said I don't think SlySly's scum and even if I did then I'd still want to force him to not kill a player I want alive and the player I most want alive is JaeReed right now.

[mastina]

Creature I go back and forth on but is still more town than not.

What changed because you seemed pretty darned convinced earlier?

I can answer this question with two words.
It'll sound like a nonsequitur, but it actually IS your answer:

I'm town.

[mastina]

Fine. I'll just ignore everything from your slot then.

Well I'm getting nightkilled.
You know why I'm getting nightkilled.
Because I need to play mediator between you two and I think I can do a damn good job of that and with me gone that won't happen anymore, but.

Please don't do this.
You need to work together here.

We have a townbloc which is lock-town.
There's a matter of hashing out the details:
SlySly/Steven Quartz/Creature/Shiro/Not_Mafia/Alisae/MaxwellPuckett.

We have seven names to sort through.
And we have seven players to do it. (Nacho/Tammy/Plot/nancy/Jae/Leon/me.)

Quite literally.
QUITE LITERALLY.
If each of us were to 100% sort ONE player.
Just one.
With 100% accuracy.

We would have the game won.
That's all it'd take.
So please.
Work together.

We can figure out how to get consensus here.

[mastina]

Also you've ignored most of my content and I has sads

?

[mastina]

plantsy, Leonshade, Imperium:

As soon as possible, can you five give readslists?
Can be combined OR separate for hydras, whichever is most convenient. It can also come with the caveat that you're not ready to call it final, that you need to do whatever it is that you need to do. But right now I'm looking to compile our readslists and see if I can form an optimal plan/order from it. Jae's is in 4384.
Mine's this:

JaeReed
plantsy
Leonshade
Imperium
KeySkiies

Steven Quartz
SlySly
Creature
Shiro

Not_Mafia
Alisae
MaxwellPuckett

(Thereabouts anyway)

[mastina]

I'm going to be doing a project and it might take a while but I'm hoping to narrow 4483 down. A prerequisite of this technique is when isoing a player assuming they are scum, so bear that in mind; I'm not calling the player scum so much as I am dealing with a hypothetical scenario of them being scum and what that would mean.

Spoiler: Steven Quartz Iso, relationships

So how should someone read you if they don't have meta?

Listen to someone who does have it.

please stop telling us details of probably the main way to protect sora.

Coming from someone who wanted me lynched, yeah......

Possible Alisae scumteam.

@itlepip So you couldn't care less about the Wall? What if I told you that if I die without activating the Wall, Sora dies together with me?

See, itle wants me lynched because he knows that if I die without activating the Wall, said conftown will die the first night after I go.

please stop telling us details of probably the main way to protect sora.

I got dejavu
That's exactly the type of comment scum would make for the towncred: 'Stop telling us what we don't need to know, except we know it already'. Exactly the kind of move someone would do for towncred. That and the fake rage at me voting the biggest wagon along with that brief silence after I mentioned the true purpose of the Wall..... no doubt you asked your mates how to get around it, and when I mentioned the 'expiration date', you no doubt were elated you could get around the Wall. But you cannot. Walls are made to protect.
Yeah, things aren't aligning in your favor.....
VOTE: itle
Scum must be purged.

This however makes a Steven Quartz-Alisae scumteam slightly less likely.

Scum: plantsy, itlepip, mastina

If Steven Quartz is scum rule of three could apply, but it's also possible this is all three town names. (Or Steven Quartz is town, but this is looking at interactions from the assumption of the slot I am isoing being scum, to try and weed out unlikely pairs.) Given Steven Quartz's vote progression, the latter

does

seem more likely to me. (That being, SQ as town or all three as town.) In other words, I don't think itlepip is listed there as distancing.

I'd like to hear from Yume personally.

All I have to say is 'I told you so'.
VOTE: Alisae
Are you gonna listen to me and mastin now or will this be a repeat of SU2?

...Which by this point is pretty cemented.

VOTE: MaxwellPuckett
Watch me get onto the biggest wagon to gain lotsa town cred like a boss.

Possible MaxwellPuckett bus.

@Shiro You do realize scum can fake their towngame in order to be townread?

@Shiro You do realize scum can fake their towngame in order to be townread?

Yea but they are pretty much public masons, everything seems too real

And you think that's impossible standard for scum players to achieve? I mean, look at me. I am treated as idiot at best, and yet I was able to fool town for quite a while in Spring Fever. If someone like me could do that, then the better players can do it too. So don't be fooled.

This doesn't read as scum-scum to me, so Shiro is slightly more likely to not be paired with Steven Quartz. Actually make that quite a lot less likely.

VOTE: Oversoul

This is not outside the realm of being a bus.

First off, it's 'them'. Second off, maybe my Wall protected them

First, I was referring to the role. I'll say him, her, them, it, whatever I want. I don't care about those getting knots in their panties over a pronoun. I'm highly doubting you protected Sora. I'm highly doubting Sora was visited/targeted.

Even if I didn't protect Sora now, that's no reason to endanger them in the future with reckless moves such as stopping one of two moves, that when combined, protect them permanently. So kindly drop yourself out of this conversation and stop answering for Ram.

I'll stay in it now that you asked me to leave. I'm not talking for Ram, I'm talking for me. I'm thinking you and your wall are full of shit.

So humor me, why do you think Sora was not targeted rather than being protected by me? Better yet, tell me more about how scum are content with leaving an IC, who helps with POE against them, alive? Entertain me.

Slightly less likely for SlySly to be a StevenQuartz partner.

Overall conclusion: Steven Quartz is not very likely to be scum at all.
IF Steven Quartz were to be scum, however, then these are the teams I would look in to:
Creature-Steven Quartz

MaxwellPuckett-Steven Quartz

Steven Quartz-Not_Mafia

Those are the only three I'd call probable.

[mastina]

Really?
tbh mastina, from your PoV, I'd read her vote on me today as a bus and then her getting off the bus.
What made you think her voting me today made it seem like she wouldn't be bussing me?

The scum are down two members for a start.
Additionally this isn't out of the blue; Steven Quartz was suspicious of your slot before any other.

That makes a scumteam of you two preeeeeeeeeetty dang unlikely.

[mastina]

Hey, I heard a rumor my stubborness is contagious. I hope not.

~Titus

*cough cough* I'm 100% certain Creature is scum and will not compromise on anything
VOTE: Creature
*hack wheeze*
-Gamma

Putting this outside the spoiler to say I actually kinda like this post a lot (not that it matters that much), though this doesn't actually say one way or another if Creature-Not_Mafia is viable or not. (I'm reasonably certain Gamma would equally vote a scumbuddy and not vote a scumbuddy, so.)

Also I'd make an early guess at Rylai and Lina being a buddy of mhsmith0
-Gamma

This one is out of spoilers as well because in contrast to the above this one's a godawful post. But it does have the effect of once more reaffirming my belief that Shiro isn't scum, at least not with Not_Mafia but also probably just not in general, too.

OMFG
Did FA really just post this
After seeing ME get caught out for it in Code Geass?
-Gamma

(I'm probably going to quote the entire iso out of spoilers aren't I?) I do like this post even though I recognize it could be fake. A benefit from it though is that regardless of Not_Mafia's alignment it once again continues to make it incredibly unlikely Shiro is a partner.

Spoiler: Oh hey I get to do Not_Mafia Iso relationships

Damn MS quoting, ignore all of those.

This feels very handwavey. Scumpoints for this.
-Gamma

"Btw it's at about this point I would normally vote, but I'm voteless outside of mylo/lylo, so."
If this claim is true, which went from like 95% to 70 something after Mastina continues to refuse to vote, then if Mastina votes when we think it could be lylo or mylo and there actually is a vote, then we know that it is. The rest of the post was explaining why that doesn't lose the game to a quicklynch.

Nevermind. This guy is probtown. I think that scum would be aware of the fact it says it's 13:4 in the setup post.
-Gamma

I feel like this one should tell me something about Alisae-Not_Mafia but I can't read it as town or scum. If I had to make a call, I'd loosely guess not-scumbuddies though.

Creature seems to be artificially inflating his post count. probscum since his activity is a reliable tell for him. The more active the more likely he's town. This false activity suggests hes trying to fit that.
VOTE: Creature
-Gamma

Similarly so for this. It's hard to get a read, but loosely looks not-scumbuddies.

SlySly and itlepip probtown
idk on Shiro, was sring them early, have them town in my notes but don't remember why
Creature scum for being fake
mhsmith is an artifact scumread and should probably be resorted
Oversoul, Maxwell, Leonshade, and SQ are shades of null (SQ I feel I could lose just because I feel like they're going to be like SnarkySnowman)
-Gamma

SlySly is there presumably for the claim and itlepip for the townslip. This post tells me once again Shiro's not a scumbuddy, though it doesn't say much at all. Really, Gamma did a good job of making it so that if he's scum he could be scum with almost anyone since I'm really not getting much from this at all.

So, not much help but does eliminate Not_Mafia-Shiro at the very least so slightly narrowing things down.
I will say it makes Creature/Alisae/SlySly slightly less likely to be partners but not by much, not to the point I'd eliminate the pairings.

[mastina]

Spoiler: SlySly Iso relationships

Hey SlySly, who should I wagon?

Whoever you think is scummy.

This is an incredibly natural and organic interaction which I find INCREDIBLY unlikely to be scum-scum.

Creature, nice to see you again! Your ever changing avatar kinda threw me off for awhile until your page of spam then the memory of you came back full force. I've seen this style from you as both scum and town. Usually you're that way out of the gates. Your delayed start has my brain questioning you a little, but it is summer time and people do get busy. I see you're anxious to sheep and more than willing to wagon hop. You town, bro?

This banter I also quite like as not being scum-scum.

I'm trying to add you and Ram

uh what? Either you don't know how town circles work or you don't know how voting works but either way this makes no sense.

You just don't know me.

Not to the level of Creature interactions but this does make it slightly less likely to be SlySly-Alisae. In fact,

I'm trying to add you and Ram

uh what? Either you don't know how town circles work or you don't know how voting works but either way this makes no sense.

itus asked me who was in my town bloc. I said I was trying to add Titus and Ram. Make sense now?

Make that quite a bit less likely.

Oversoul - I could vote him
Creature - just going with what I remember from reading him before this trip, I could vote him
MaxwellPuckett - null
itlepip - voting me, obv good candidate for rope

This once more makes SlySly-Alisae look rather unlikely. However the other interactions aren't so good.

Assuming Town:
Not_Mafia
Maxwell

Hellooooo possible scumbuddies!

I may be imagining things, but reading D2 so far immediately struck me as Creature and Maxwell reciting scum chat plans.
VOTE: Creature

This cements Creature as not a scumbuddy while also looking rather bad for SlySly if MaxwellPuckett is scum.

So, possible scum, but only on the following teams:

MaxwellPuckett-SlySly

Shiro-SlySly

SlySly-Not_Mafia

.

[mastina]

Spoiler: Shiro Iso relationships

Your silence and no posts was strongly town lookin

Swear to god the towniest thing about MaxwellPuckett is how there's literally no scumteam which isn't working with MaxwellPuckett. This is a rather plausible buddy interaction.

Dunno, I really feel icky about the way she sorted Max though, Townread nothign that is supposdly highly complecating and she cant explain it that developed to null when he posted??? It is very weird and if she is scum max could be scum with her and she tried to fake it

This does make me feel slightly better about that though. It still could be scum voting a townie while shading scum, but it doesn't read that way.

I am not opposed to it, simply thinking about it. Max to my knowledge tends to post big empty posts as scum which is kinda absent here (unless I missed osmething) which gives me some pause. Then again I haven;t played with him in quite a while to know if that has changed.

But this is a little inducing.

I think I feel better about voting there now

Vote:Max

This

could

be a bus vote especially by bandwagoning on others' reasoning piggybacking off of their momentum.
Could be.
But I really don't think it is; it shows some thought processes which look unique and original and the vibe from it was reminiscent of when Shiro efforted in Steven Universe 2.

Titus, i feel this is saga frontier Max, I am getting reminiscence of his play there. Where he was lurkish then pushed a bit and made empty posts. Don't you think so? Usually I don't want to use meta too much but his play here has been unremarkable regardless.

Anyway yea, max is being bleh, he posted empty stuff as I would expect of scum him and mostly self meta to simply defend himself instead of doing something. It is icky.

Fun fact I think he knew I would figure his thing out since I was advocating for it back in saga and then again in another game which is my guess why he tried to buddy me by calling me obvtown. <--Talking about Max

Also Max as I have said needs death. I am pretty damn confident he is scum and explained why. His Townread on.me that went from me being obvtown to having to do with fa and me being pretty townie after I called it out. And let's forget he originally scunread fa and said he could vote there cause he agreed with rm.

VOTE: Maxwell Puckett

I endorse this vote.

Shiro actually went on the offensive here. Which to be honest the scariest thing is I don't remember Shiro doing as town but what it does tell me is that Shiro is unlikely to be a MaxwellPuckett partner.

Oversoul is a nullread of nullness, I quick ISOed to remember what they were even doing. Meh coasting a lot could be anything, I kinda don't like how they wanted to be townblocked so early with Imperium.

Creature to my experience with him is lurky, though I will say that I found his approaching a little bleh, he was talking about wagons and when I opted him to check my reasoning he said he was uniterested, when I proded for him why he said well he didnt say anything and voted somewhere random. I wouldn't put him in a scumpile but for a null read he hasnt given me a good impression

These interactions aren't the greatest either and I'm not getting the ability to eliminate a scumteam from them.

Null
Sly and ittle(ittle is on the townie side but eeeh I wouldnt put him there)Ram(I know that with how many posts he has and how much he is discussed I should have an opinion but I just don't feel strongly either way),mhsmith

Creature is absent from this list. This is unfortunately not something helpful to me since it places basically all the key names remaining RE: Shiro in one spot.

This wagon is boring

why Max is town?

Spoiler:

He isn't

More for why Shiro's not scum with Maxwell. Incidentally, I missed this for Not_Mafia and it turns the MaxwellPuckett-Not_Mafia team into bold for what it's worth. (Thus why I have it outside the spoiler tag.)

Overall looks reasonably town and in Shiro's favor is one of the few who is unlikely to be partnered with MaxwellPuckett, though not impossible to be scum. Were Shiro scum, I'd look into these:
Creature-Shiro
Shiro-SlySly
Shiro-Alisae

[mastina]

Spoiler: MaxwellPuckett Iso relationships

itlepip, Creature, Titus, and Shiro are town
Oversoul, Jaereed, NM scum?

So I hate the unexplained itlepip and Creature townreads here.

Imo Creature is def town.

I kinda sorta think this may indicate not-scumbuddies though.

Leon: So Creature's a strong TR
I guess it's about priorities. Early-game I found it a little weird that he was saying he was bored or didnt have a lot to say
But tbh, I do believe it now. The way he's been approaching the game has followed a pattern of posting when interested and just not contributing much when there isnt anything he cares about. Scum could do this too but its harder, imo, for scum to be disinterested for a few reasons
He looks like town who's playing a game for fun and doesnt really care about 'looking' like a good towny, and just wants to find scum and play

He does bring this up himself in980 which kind of dampens the effect tho
Still, the actual renewing and weaning of interest looks legit from here and doesnt appear to be Creature trying to fake that to look like his town meta. (Ftr I dont really have meta on creature but its not relevant to this anyway except to say that creature brought up his meta)

Asides from that and general townfeelings and lack of scum from creature there was the whole thing where he wanted to wagon me and then brought up the bookie thing in 2719 which is just like. Its a really weird scumplay

This reminds me, why

are

you still scumreading me Creature, is it just 2703?

I do not think this is how a scumbuddy goes about defending a scumbuddy.

Pedit Creature u didnt answer why i was scum i remember, was it just what i pointed out from your iso? And maybe u can answer/repeat what the arguments for sly scum are

And creature fair enough, whyre you townreading mastina/not townreading sly?

Nothing else Creature? I grabbed two random towngames of Sly, 150 for the entirety of Timeshift, a little more in Witch Trials where he got lynched d4, and in undertale he had the most i saw for him w almost 400 and survived til night 3. Here he's approaching 100
Tbh it feels like a lot of your reads are based on post impact

Good for Creature as town, bad for Max-Sly.

I expect to be scumread considering the pattern w smith and oversoul. Less so do I tolerate claims of knowing me from one game (yes Alisae that one's for you), or that my tone is faked. Its fine if it

feels

fake

but please check your confbias. Its unending

VOTE: Alisae

What part of going to bed did you not just fuckin read alisae

While this

could

be scum distancing when they think they're doomed.

I actually don't think it is? The bolded in particular.

Overall not a lot definitive except that MaxwellPuckett really looks like scum, but what I

can

say is that the possibilities have narrowed:
MaxwellPuckett-Steven Quartz

MaxwellPuckett-SlySly

MaxwellPuckett-Alisae

MaxwellPuckett-Not_Mafia

(Underlined = less likely if you hadn't figured that out. Bold = more likely.)

[mastina]

Spoiler: Alisae Iso relationships

Hi Max
137 is all the thoughts I have
Max can probably die though, he seems on to me.

This does not look like scumbuddy-to-scumbuddy right off the bat to me on review.

VOTE: Creature Tried isoing them and there was literally nothing to talk about.

This vote is utterly detached from everything else in the post in an incredibly awkward way, but if it were a bus I'd expect there to be something more to it, a different quality. Timing? Location? Content? It'd be different somehow, hard to describe, but this does not look like a scumbuddy vote.

You'd think I'd get more than that, but no, that's about it.

MaxwellPuckett-Alisae

Shiro-Alisae

Alisae-Not_Mafia

Is what I'm left with.

[mastina]

Spoiler: Creature Iso relationships

I got bored.
VOTE: Statler and idk

Immediately right off the bat this makes me think they are not a scumteam. What Creature is saying here is essentially he decided to get serious and this is what he came up with to push.

VOTE: Statler and Wandolf

This also helps.

Though, I still feel I'll play this game. As long it isn't just scrolling through Rilay and Lina posts.

I realize scum

can

express this viewpoint of a scumbuddy, but I don't think they DO. At least not like this.

Steven Quartz and mhsmith0 are there because?

This is also not a callout I'd expect Creature to make if Steven Quartz is a scumbuddy.

Titus, is Steven Quartz town?

Another such instance. Creature looks like he's genuinely asking about Steven Quartz with no agenda. More than that, even if he were scum, this is not a question you ask about a scumbuddy. Not like this anyway.

Btw, can someone read Steven Quartz?

Stuff like this is also ridiculously genuine too.

Incidentally, already between these you've gotten it so that Creature basically has no viable partner.

We could also lynch within {Steven Quartz, mhsmith0, Shiro, Titus}, because the wagon is bad.

Literally these are the names Creature can be scum with and he's saying to lynch within there. I don't see that as scum at all.

Basically Creature is like guaranteed town at this point because who the fuck could he be scum with? Literally

no-one

. I kinda sorta stopped reading early because nothing would convince me otherwise. Creature is town.

[mastina]

This is what I've got left.

MaxwellPuckett-SlySly

MaxwellPuckett-Not_Mafia

MaxwellPuckett-Steven Quartz
Steven Quartz-Not_Mafia
Shiro-SlySly
Shiro-Alisae

MaxwellPuckett-Alisae

Alisae-Not_Mafia

SlySly-Not_Mafia

Thereabouts.

[mastina]

^If you have a scumteam in mind I've eliminated, go over the part where you see me eliminating it and state your reason for disagreeing.
If you have in mind eliminating a scumteam I have listed, go ahead and point out why you think that scumteam is unlikely/impossible.

[mastina]

Btw what triggered the avatar change?

Which one?
From my favorite avatar to the speakeasy one--the SUPP.
From the SUPP to the sketch--me wanting to change.
From the sketch to the filtered sketch--implosion made a thread and I went "sure why not" and it'd have been rude to not use the results and I figured I might as well.
Also if it looks terrible it's incentive for me to finish the colored version of the sketch.

[mastina]

@Plot what do all the symbols mean?

It's a mostly-intuitive system to read; what's not so intuitive is staring at it and discerning what Plotinus's interpretation of it would be. (I can kinda sorta do that when I focus on it but I'm feeling kinda lazy and just want to passively not-really-aggressively-but-not-not-aggressively ask for help in doing so. )

[mastina]

I owe Jae a date today (I'm only here because I'm waiting for my breakfast to be done; once it is I'll eat it and then I will be theirs), so no content today; it'll have to wait until tomorrow.

[mastina]

Would Not_Mafia fakeclaim roleblocker as town?

Sadly.
Yes.

But I'm not going to defend him doing so.
Just sigh in disappointment that I don't actually think he's scum even though everything is so much easier and simpler with him as scum.

[mastina]

1. If not protecting me is a scumclaim, why should I not just claim? I don't follow your reasoning here.

I don't see it giving the town info we can't already reasonably deduce; I do see it giving scum info they could really use.

2. How did you know a quickhammer had happened last day phase?

Honestly I just hit the wrong button. (The plan was to go into my iso, find my second-to-last post, and go from there since I knew my last post was a prod-dodge.) Instead of going to the first page I went to the first unread page.
Alisae and mhsmith's combo-hammer was literally

right

below my post. I knew Titus was close to a lynch, I saw the votes, I went to check the last votecount and entered mod-skim-mode looking for votes/unvotes that would confirm it was indeed a hammer, and it was.

So happy accident combined with me doing some last-minute checking, essentially.

[mastina]

This is horribly messy and I'm not sure I got everything, honestly.

I feel bad that you're doing that work for me and yet in spite of you doing it for me I'm not in the proper mindset to take advantage of it. I actually

have

what I asked for. I have scum deaths, AND I have a town mislynch. I know what scum isn't now and a fair idea of what scum IS.

I

should

be able to take advantage of the data and use it but I'm just kinda...
...In a slump as it were.

That zone where you don't really feel like doing anything but you know you need to do something.
I'm kinda sorta mentally and maybe emotionally/physically drained, petered out as it were.

I'm just not passionate, energetic, about anything we're doing and I don't know how to fix that.

Essentially I feel like I've already contributed everything I have to contribute--that I've done everything useful that I can do. That everything extra is just...going in circles, working for the sake of working rather than for the sake of scumhunting.

[mastina]

(Basically I don't know what to do right now. I can fake it. I can fake doing things right now but I've run out of ideas for things which feel actually productive. I don't have any more ideas. I don't have any magical gamesolving past what we've already got. Establishing the townbloc was a solid step. And past that point. It's just a matter of degrees of sorting. And there reaches a point where I just don't know what I can do extra. I'm at the point where I've given everything I know I actually

believe

in, essentially--anything extra wouldn't be me believing it as much as it'd be me guessing at it, if that makes sense.)

[mastina]

I could see Scar being a thing much more if he were humanoid although that's probably a bad reason to think less of him.

I very much sincerely doubt Scar is in this game.

[mastina]

Your prod-dodge was 20 minutes before while saying you might not get to the game that day...

To be honest it's also possible I accidentally hit the 'read newest posts' button for this game when aiming for the 'read newest posts' button for Night and Day. I just remember rather distinctly that I did something I didn't mean to do, caught an event I otherwise would not have caught, was glad I did so, and then had to post about it.

Gods, you make me so jumpy sometimes.

Hey, protecting me would be a scumclaim at this point, so. I'll be among the first in the townbloc to die. I'm a double-voter who is in the townbloc and can be rather influential at getting people to work together. Scum want that gone. I am telling people not to protect me. Scum have a wide opening. So at this stage literally the only reason scum have for not nightkilling me is because I am asking them to nightkill me.

[mastina]

Absent = not literally absent.
Absent = in that player's top-town tier, essentially.

MASTINA:
Creature (essentially absent)
Steven Quartz/Vedith
Shiro (largely absent)
SlySly
Not_Mafia
Alisae
MaxwellPuckett

NANCY: (Creature, Shiro absent)
Steven Quartz/Vedith
Alisae
SlySly
Not_Mafia
MaxwellPuckett

PLOTINUS: (Creature, Shiro absent)
{MaxwellPuckett}
{Steven Quartz/Vedith}
{Alisae, SlySly}
{Not_Mafia}

JAEREED:
{Creature} (Essentially absent)
{Alisae}
{Steven Quartz/Vedith}
{Shiro, MaxwellPuckett}
{SlySly}
{Not_Mafia}

LEONSHADE: (Creature absent)
{Alisae, Shiro}
{SQ/Vedith}
{Maxwell, SlySly}
{Not_Mafia}

This is what I have right now. I'm trying to make something from this but my brain's just not making the links it should be.

[mastina]

That kinda went over my head, too. <3

The townbloc's readslists.

[mastina]

Please walk me through the night actions that everyone should take.

One protective on you.
The other on Leonshade.
(Which I'm not sure but that's something that needs to be decided in advance.)
Beyond that...I don't have an idea of optimum play for the night actions.
If I did I'd have contributed something but I do not.

And I know it was some of the town's lists it was just... I couldn't work out the purpose for it

Neither can I.
It's something I wanted to get use out of but I can't quite get it. I had an idea but I can't make it reality, essentially.

The hope was that by overlapping all our readslists the scumteam would magically be revealed, but.
I got nuthin'.
I feel like I have an A, and I have a B, and the desire is to produce D, but to produce D I'm missing a C, as it were.

[mastina]

The second seems clearly to be the better option given that unless Max is roleblocked we have a definite result on the table tomorrow and getting essentially a Bulletproof IC in Imperium seems far more optimal than confirming Shiro's alignment one way or the other.

Personally at this stage if Imperium were scum I'd be letting them win 100% of the time.

I'm never getting paranoid of them.
In a 3p lylo between them, me, and some other player I'd lynch the other player.
Nothing will ever change that.

For that reason, I kinda sorta selfishly don't really have a desire for Imperium to become conftown.
Buuuuuuuuuuut.
I recognize that I'm not the whole town and all it'd take is the scum nightkilling me to remove that.

[mastina]

Who's the proposed alternative lynch to NM? Sly and SQ are claimed protectives who probably aren't scum together. Max has the potential to be either useful or die tonight, if the claim is real. No lynch is out of the question with this town lead. plantsy townreads Shiro, and I think I agree (more based on FA than Shiro). And I think Ali is town here. Creature is part of the townbloc and out of the question.

The problem is, at least one of those names

is

scum.
No ifs, ands, or buts. SlySly, Vedith, MaxwellPuckett, Shiro, Alisae, Creature. At some point you're going to need to make a judgement call because one of them IS scum, more than one if Not_Mafia is town.

[mastina]

I just hate her stance on NM.

So do I.

[mastina]

Creature:

current townblock that everoyne agrees on is

you, us, imperium, jae, mastina, leonshade, keyskies

imperium and us would put

shiro

in there too.

I would almost put Shiro in there too, but he's not quite there for me.

[mastina]

Sure, though, do you know how mastina plays scum?

I do! And I can tell you this isn't how she plays as scum!

[mastina]

SlySly are you at all willing to protect outside KeySkiies?

No

Okay, enjoy being tomorrow's lynch.

And that is something which will happen btw.
You can say it won't all you like.
You can claim it's terrible all you want.
Put on all the bravado in the world if you must.
Insist that it's anti-town all you like.
Rant, rave at us for being terrible, claiming that your action was the best, that you were infallible.
Won't change things at all.

If either Leonshade or JaeReed dies.
So do you.
Period.
No ifs, ands, or buts, you get lynched.

That's what will happen.
Doesn't matter if you agree with it or not.
You can strongly disagree with it for all I care, matters not.
This is no empty threat.

This is a guarantee.

[mastina]

Yeah, ill go plantsy or Mastina today. Let me know when everything wraps up. Maxwell is town. Actuall, I'm not too opposed to lynching NM. I kind of like the people voting him.

Case n point on why Boonskiies being wide open will have the scum not give a damn.

[mastina]

Yeah well I softed enough that scum would know everything anyway. It's town that clearly doesn't get it.

The town who actually matter get it! No need to claim please.

[mastina]

Another great one for post-game with conftown being correct and mastina continuing to deny

Unless you're saying plantsy is scum.

My statement stands.

BoonSkiies, quite seriously, has plantsy/myself as their top two scumreads.

So my stance remains: scum don't give a damn if BoonSkiies is wide open, I'd frankly consider it a personal favor if they wasted their nightkill there.

[mastina]

I get lynched when I don't protect the IC, too.

Past games don't matter.

What matters is THIS game.

This game I'm saying protecting the IC will get you lynched; not protecting the IC will prevent your lynch.

[mastina]

I honestly don't get the way you've treated my slot this game mastina.

Maybe because you think I'm treating you in a way I'm not actually treating you? I'm reading this post and my only response is: "What? I'm not doing that. ", and I don't know what to say beyond that except that I'm not?

[mastina]

This site is all about past games. What percentage of this game has been spent discussing past games?

Yeah don't go pretending you didn't understand what I was saying.

This site is all about past games when it comes to PLAYER ACTIONS.

When it comes to ROLE ACTIONS I couldn't care less about what you did in a prior game. What matters is how you use your role THIS GAME.

Hide behind a past game and you get fucking lynched.
Do what is best FOR THIS GAME and you don't get lynched.

That. simple.

[mastina]

And that was in fact the obvious thing.

[mastina]

Ftr when you said to me the thing way earlier about Fractals I immediately exclaimed to Plotinus "oh maybe they're follower!" so I'm glad we were on the same wavelength there!

I mean.

The reference was pretty blatant.

[mastina]

Because he didn't do anything last night.

He could be scum with the other scum as ninja who just didn't act last night (mhsmith was alive and thus likely strongman killed), butstill you're more right than not.

[mastina]

Btw if we're playing the 'claim-our-flavor' game to its conclusion at any time you can ask me to claim since I've softed at least once or twice.
(There was a way I considered softing but which wouldn't be the most mastina of ways to soft so I didn't, but. I am Leonshade is my nonclaiming flavor hint.)

[mastina]

Like, my actions so far have been objectively trash.

No they do a good job of confirming Vedith as almost assuredly town. <3
And, hey. Scum probably would have actioned with a role, so.
It does increase the likelihood that Alisae is town.

[mastina]

How does double voter work in with Simba?

I'm not the flavor expert and my role PM doesn't exactly give any. My double-vote passive ability is called the Proud Roar if that helps and I've got a single line of text stating I'm the king of the Pride Lands. (Kinda hard to paraphrase a single sentence but I don't want to get TOO close to the original.) So beats me.

Also that was fast.

[mastina]

(It might also have to do with courage? The sentence mentioned that and vaguely I'd think courage would be an important theme of a game centering around heart, so.)

[mastina]

...My actions here have been objectively trash. I've been approaching it without trying to get a guilty so much as confirm actions, though, given the ninja. So maybe. Meh.

Well confirming mhsmith as scum wouldn't have exactly helped much, now, would it? (And you know he's the killer for both prior nights pretty much 100% or if not him a ninja who you CAN'T TRACK, so.) You really can't catch scum with your power this game. Just confirm town which you've done a decent job of doing.

[mastina]

Oh hey this page looks very useful! It even has a familiar image right at the top!

[mastina]

I guess because it's powerful? hmm...

To be honest I'm looking at the page for proud roar and I don't get what makes that make sense as a double-voter in any iteration of the ability. Honestly the stun effect would make it more of a roleblocker but I'm not one. Dealing damage isn't exactly a unique ability given I imagine essentially everything deals damage. Depleting enemy HP might be a slightly more unique effect, but even then I don't see how that'd translate to double-voter rather than something like a vig outside of Heartless sharing my viewpoint of a doublevoter being a nerfed vig.

But I'm not the flavor expert, so maybe someone more in the know can tell me what the link there is.

[mastina]

Btw RE: Tracker(/Follower)/Watcher/Ninja/Backup, worth mentioning:
Biochemistry is a thing which is potentially relevant.
How it'd be relevant, not quite sure, that would depend on what you'd want to ask exactly, but it's Anti's just-completed game where we got a glorious view of how he treated that sort of role so I figured it'd be something worth bringing up.

From it, for instance, you can reasonably deduce that Antihero's not going to give town a backup to a scum role, or scum a backup to a town role. You can therefore reasonably deduce that JaeReed is town, regardless of Alisae. The thing in question would be whether Alisae is legit a backup of JaeReed, or if Alisae just has a fakeclaim of being a backup to JaeReed, which is...a bit trickier. It seems like a pretty shitty fakeclaim to give scum though so it's something which remains more likely than not to be something making Alisae more town than not.

[mastina]

Yell and scream and attempt to intimidate all you want. I'm guarding Sora. That's the only confirmed townie in the game.

And I'm telling you that if Leonshade or JaeReed die that you hang for that.

[mastina]

This is intent to vote N_M btw.

I mean I'd vote but given I'm a double-voter me voting would leave him open to self-hammering, so.

[mastina]

That's why I assumed you weren't voting him.

It is indeed and this is one of the OTHER reasons I fucking hate the double-voter role:

I am really bad at math.
(Just ask Reasonably Rational's heads they would have QUITE the story to tell you about that.)

[mastina]

(Incidentally in that game I was ALSO a vig. A vig who that day phase had a double vote via mechanics.)

[mastina]

(Basically I was under the impression I was placing Reasonably Rational to L-1, but I was actually hammering them--completely and entirely by accident, through a math error on my end. If I were a singlevoter it'd have been L-1 but with our double-vote it was a hammer, so.)

[mastina]

(Also I was in a hydra and my hydra partner submitted a nightkill on the IC. Which was RadiantCowbells. He still pins the blame on me though because it's funnier that way. My sin was not in stopping my hydra partner from making that submission, not in having submitted it. Also it failed so no we didn't kill the IC.)

[mastina]

So the perfect role to induce a mastina rant about how you hate your role?

Yes.
The one and only reason I ever wanted to use the vig that game is that it was essentially an open game where players with specific roles were known to hold specific powers for specific alignments--in the case of our role, vigging on the same night there was a scum kill would mod-confirm us as town.

Otherwise, hydra be damned. I'd never have submitted a nightkill and I'd have been tempted to stop my hydra partner from making a nightkill. (Also go do your thing my love. <3)

[mastina]

(Reading I was actually potentially theoretically a quadruple-voter. I was under the impression RR were at L-3, and thus our double-vote--the minimum we could do--would be safe, and that the more extreme 3 or 4 votes which coulda been the hammer...wouldn't have been. But they were actually at L-2. I was also almost entirely absent from the game; 95% of the hydra's posting was my hydra partner and our night actions were my hydra partner's up until he replaced out. This is the game for the curious. I was fighting a hydra flake but once I went solo had no choice but to play.)

[mastina]

Why is plantsy's slot not dead yet?

Because the town is actually competent!

[mastina]

I would be ready, but I'm willing to wait for Imperium.

(Also I can't vote without placing Not_Mafia in selfhammer range, so.)

[mastina]

I don't understand why Sly has decided to protect Key and only Key when he has this perspective on ICs in general:

And you weren't on Andy WHEN DESPERADO HINTED HE WAS FUCKING DIEING because why again?

Because Innocent Child is just a glorified VT.

I do; it's because SlySly is scum.

[mastina]

And that's a very weak reason for a townread.

Do you want me to interject with subduing paranoia or would you prefer to keep it Jae-specific?

[mastina]

And that's a very weak reason for a townread.

Do you want me to interject with subduing paranoia or would you prefer to keep it Jae-specific?

My intention was never just to keep it Jae-specific.

Well in that case allow me to give my feedback.

Leonshade is town in every way he could be without being town by role. (And even then that's mainly due to a lack of roleclaim by him; I strongly suspect that were he to roleclaim we could add his role to reasons he is town.)

I have seen Leonshade as scum, outside of WWF which doesn't really count as a scumgame for any of the scum players there. (Wasn't one for me, wasn't one for Priscila, wasn't one for Leonshade, etc.) He is respectably good, but he's not at a level where he is uncatchable. It is true that he can grow his scumgame. Fuck, I nominated him for Rising Star for DAMN good reason and it's that he's competent as both alignments. When Leonshade started this game, I'll admit that I was a little bit unsure of him--he started out a little bit sketchy, both activity-wise and content-wise.

...

However

, the level of growth and depth I have seen from Leonshade since then is outside of what I have seen from his scumgame. That kind of exponential growth is POSSIBLE, sure. But it is incredibly improbable. Leonshade has shown a strong presence the whole game, in reasoning and in reads. It's not just that, either. He's also made me FEEL like he's town, something which he hasn't done in a scumgame yet but HAS done in a towngame.

For him to be scum he would have made great strides in his scumgame. Is it impossible for him to be scum, no, I respect him enough where I have to acknowledge he could indeed have made that leap to the next level of absolute don corelone level scumplay. HOWEVER. There's more to it than meta. There's more to it than his actual play and actual content this game. (Both of which are town.)

There's also his interactions with scum, and just as importantly, scum's interactions with him. In particular, the mhsmith-Leonshade interactions do

not

read as scum theater. mhsmith is, by his own admittance, a pretty shitty scum player. I flat-out don't think mhsmith is capable of faking the level of interaction he had with Leonshade. Even if you think LEONSHADE could pull it off. (And even that's a stretch!) To think that mhsmith could also pull it off is a stretch.

That isn't something any scum player could coordinate behind the scenes. Nor is it something which I believe would arise from a clash in scumteam personalities. Leonshade from what I know of his scumgame works REALLY well and synergizes RIDICULOUSLY well with his scumbuddies, so the idea of him having an intense non-alignment-indicative fight with a partner is basically thrown out the window for me.

The only possibilities then are that the fight was scum theater, planned out, or that Leonshade is simply town. Leonshade in my experience tends to avert bussing reasonably heavily. He might distance weakly with his scumbuddy but by and large for the MOST part he's not going to flat-out bus them. And even if so, mhsmith isn't going to so strongly reciprocate. The level of intense emotions and head they displayed isn't viable as scum-scum interactions.

Furthering that. Leonshade has basically been vocalizing a lot of my thoughts before I have. This is not something he could intentionally do. This is admittedly not something which makes him lock-town in of itself, but it's a good indicator that the player is thinking along the same wavelength...especially since his thoughts are not carbon copies of my own. He

does

differ from me. His thoughts have been SIMILAR, but not literally identical to mine.

His posting is filled to the brim with gamesolving. And I'm not talking in the mechanical sense which scum love to hide behind. (Easy example, Reasonably Rational.) I'm not talking in the easily-subverted sense where scum can figure out ways to circumvent the plans of the town's mechanics off of their own given roles. I'm talking in a scumhunting way, present the whole game.

He's not hiding behind mechanics.
He's not hiding behind townbloc coordination.
He's not hiding behind anything.
He's out in the open and strongly pushing stances.

His interactions were town, both ways. His meta is town. His play is town. His content has been town. His approach has been town.

His scumgame improving can account for some of these, yes.
But at some stage you have to accept that "but he COULD have improved his scumgame such that..." no longer works as an explanation for ALL of those

at once

.

Think of him as me. (Yes I know bad idea he's not me but humor me.)

Yeah

it's possible that I've made great strides to my scumgame such that I could fool you. That my play could be scum, that my meta could be outdated, that my interactions could be scum-scum interactions. Yeah it's possible. But when you compile it all up it's not very probable, now, is it? Same basic idea. He COULD be this good as scum isn't enough for me to kick him out of the townbloc. What I'd require for that extreme action is reasons for him to be scum. Not reasons that he theoretically could be scum (paranoia); actual reasons he legitimately genuinely could be scum. And I don't have any of those on him.

[mastina]

Mastina, did you have anything that you wanted to bring up with me?

Just did. So unless that leaves you with something you now want to bring up, I'd be ready too.

[mastina]

VOTE: Not_Mafia.

[mastina]

VOTE: Not_Mafia.

[mastina]

(It never hurts to be sure.)

[mastina]

So this is a 100% 1v1 right?
VOTE: Alisae.
To be honest while MaxwellPuckett being scum would be more rewarding this is the more realistic option for me.

[mastina]

Derp.
Wrong name.
VOTE: Shiro.
YOU KNOW WHAT I MEANT.
But anyway. To be honest. It really shouldn't matter if this is 100% a 1v1, last scum caught, guaranteed to be a town win, just a matter of order.

[mastina]

Holy shit I was about to quote from hood and realized that would get me modkilled

Oh. my. god.

If you told me you had some secret neighborhood I'd totally buy it because this is the sort of interaction I'd expect from lolneighborhoodz.

I WAS TALKING TO YOUR HYDRA ABOUT THIS.

YOU CHEEKY LITTLE FUCKS I WAS RIGHT.

(Okay so I was wrong about the members butstill...details.)

[mastina]

Derp.
Wrong name.
VOTE: Shiro.
YOU KNOW WHAT I MEANT.

Btw if people are curious how I derped and initially voted Alisae, it literally went like this (keep in mind it was like 4 AM at the time and I was tired and ready to go to bed):
"Maxwell is in a 1v1 with a gif-poster"-->"Alisae is a gif-poster"-->"vote Alisae". Of course what I WANTED was to vote Shiro, the

other

gif-poster. (Because my brain did accurately identify Maxwell being in a 1v1 with a gif-poster, just in its tired state doing the WRONG gif poster.) But my brain made the wrong move and needed to be corrected after the fact.

[mastina]

this game wouldn't have been this much of a success for town if tammycho didn't roll hercules.

Also scum used really suboptimal night actions; town used mostly-optimal night actions, so.

[mastina]

Subject: The Realm of Darkness

Also why does mastina think she is night kill worthy?

I didn't. That was bait, attempting to make myself more appealing as a nightkill. I was trying to sell to the scum the idea of, "I'm valuable to the town", so that they'd waste a kill on me rather than other members of the townbloc.