A Mid-Scummer Night's Dream - D.S. al Fine

[Regfan]

I'm pretty concerned that drealm is using this "herp derp I'm just weird" angle to cover for scumslips. I just don't see a way that town thinks things through and comes to the conclusion that we should lynch hebi before LLD.

Eh, we've had this conversation a few times if you're talking about way back on D2/D3, probably a ~10 page version of it with Me/Brian/Dreamlz where both Brian and myself found a huge issue with that from him but it's not been the only time I've been ????????? with how he's thinking this game and I can say it now that the game's well and truly over, I felt the same about him when I was spec'ing Deddedded and he was town there so I think it's plausibly a case of us just approaching games in very different avenues. If he's stated it more recently than that (ie. today) then I've missed it at some point but if he did I have less of an issue with that now since "order" is really irrelevant now, it's just about hitting every time. I'm more at a LLD+Hebi+ 1 of Dreamlz/TWIE spot right now which isn't hugely different from where you are but other than "Thinking LLD was buddying Hebichan" what's your read on Hebi here?

[Regfan]

Looks pretty inevitable that we're NLing here, if Math isn't voting there's no point doing so, can't lynch scum without their vote but can easily lose the game without it. Doing it via the deadline expiring is fine since it hopefully means I'll have time to have a last conversation with Math tomorrow since work ruined me today.

Don't like both sides of the Dreamlz/TWIE interaction over the last few pages, nor do I like the Ceph/TWIE interactions, plausible it's just a case of them being used to each other outside of this game but TWIE completely ignoring responding towards my question and Ceph just shrugging TWIE's attitude off as "He does this as town" without trying to get anything from him is pretty ??? especially considering the situation we're in right now.

Still think it's probably Hebi+LLD+1, have gone into why I think Hebichan is mafia in pretty big detail for you recently Math, wouldn't mind you looking at that.

[Regfan]

TWIE, does this usually work for you as scum?

I don't like this :/

Yeah, I didn't like TWIE's response either though? They both come out of it looking awful but I'm not sure if this is an exchange that makes a huge amount of sense as partners? Like the "What about this game" "Grabs links and quotes" feels like a really weird distancing/theater type avenue to go through?

[Regfan]

Did the dream just restart the vote count after Dreamlz vote and that's the entirety of it? Or are we really going to have votes reset every single time someone votes because if it's the latter than this game's already lost and this is just a horrible mean slow roll and if it's the former then that's one seriously weird dream where I'm wondering the purpose of it. Would normally really stress that not voting early here is the right move and it's probably what we should do but it's awfully tempting to try and find out if it's actually worthwhile super devoting time to this or if it's already over.

@Math - You get a chance to do much reading overnight at all?

@Dreamlz - Got a link to an instance where you've been in a LYLO as town recently for me look at, also got a link where you've early voted in LYLO too?

[Regfan]

Jesus christ the thread exploded while I was away.

Reeeeeeeeeally contemplating a LLD/Hebi/Dreamlz world right now, I'm going to read through the meta links that Dreamlz provided and see if voting his quickly is something he does as town but the vote being that early, the response towards the vote being removed and the interaction about why he hadn't voted again afterwards combined with Hebi playing the "I want to put these two to the side and lynch elsewhere, can I vote TWIE" feels like scum just creating a theatre situation where they'll win by trying to make to make us think X/Y are unaligned and leverage that to potentially either get a lynch elsewhere or have the other cleared upon their flip.

Still don't really see the scum reads on Cephrir, so if that's a read you still hold and somewhere you're even contemplating voting today Math then I need to you to promise me you'll talk it out before dropping down a vote there.

[Regfan]

Cephrir, would like this though;

Try and type your read on ever player in two lines per play, completely unfiltered ad unedited first thoughts that come to your mind.

[Regfan]

@LLD - The point that Math is getting at is that from your point of view if Dreamlz is town the games over if he's not going to unvote you and most scum teams would have had a chance to blitz you at this point (Think TWIE is the only person that hasn't been online since) so therefore he's either confirmed scum to you or the world where you're both town is a world we are never winning.

[Regfan]

Drealmerz is a fucking distraction, I want to spend my time finding the 4th Townie.

It's you, it's Hebi, it's me and there's one more.

Why would I vote Drealmerz, when I can do that at any time, instead of just focusing on figuring out which of TWIE and Reg is scum?!?!!

I don't understand how voting Dreamlz stops you from attempting to try and get a read on TWIE? Run me through how they're related please.

Edit: Eh, I don't actually hate that explanation. Can you go over your Ceph!Scum and Hebichan!Town reads since you seem very confident in those and "LYLO is a time to consider all options" in your own words, so what have you looked at with either of those today and reconfirmed those reads through?

[Regfan]

I don't want to sort LLD/Drealmerz because I'm not confident I can read LLD.


It's really that simple.

Then wouldn't reading that duo by attempting to get a read on Dreamlz be what you should be doing, not putting them both to the side?Where I'm sitting is that I think you+LLD are very likely, so you doing this "lynch elsewhere" feels like it's you attempting to minimise the chances we hit today and if the world is actually You/LLD/Dreamlz your stance actually guarantees that we'd be missing toda, that's a huge concern I've got with your posting so far today.

[Regfan]

You both calling each other "Fake as fuck" and "Beetlejuicing all over the thread" is just going to pad the pages here and get us nowhere, if you're both town we've already lost so there's little reason for the two of you to actually interact with each other and I'll let you know straight up I'm not letting AtE type shit impact my vote today.

Understand that's what your initial intention was LLD so focus on "getting reads".

[Regfan]

aalso, reg, weren't you "contemplating" this same scenario for like three days now? are you done contemplating yet?.

Eh, I still don't feel 100% that I have the whole team locked down, I'm pretty confident in a few things;

- Math being town, I really don't like Ceph/Dreamlz scum reads/statements of contemplating her being mafia but weirdly find Cephs backflip on that stance harder to believe and follow (re; his "I can't remember good reasons for it other than the role) when I think there's literally dozens of strong reasons why they're town here.

- LLD being scum making you almost a certainty to be scum and the same vice versa, I think you two are super super likely together here.The one world where you're not scum is a Ceph/Dreamlz/TWIE one which feels wrong but it's something that I'm going to be taking a look at re; their interactions today.

Pretty much the worlds I'm considering are;
LLD/Hebi + 1 of Dreamlz/TWIE/Ceph in descending likelihood
Ceph/Dreamlz/TWIE

[Regfan]

Drealmerz is a fucking distraction, I want to spend my time finding the 4th Townie.

It's you, it's Hebi, it's me and there's one more.

Why would I vote Drealmerz, when I can do that at any time, instead of just focusing on figuring out which of TWIE and Reg is scum?!?!!

I don't understand how voting Dreamlz stops you from attempting to try and get a read on TWIE? Run me through how they're related please.

Edit: Eh, I don't actually hate that explanation. Can you go over your Ceph!Scum and Hebichan!Town reads since you seem very confident in those and "LYLO is a time to consider all options" in your own words, so what have you looked at with either of those today and reconfirmed those reads through?

I've never been more confident of a town read in my life than I am of Hebi being town. especially since my hide on her was night 1, before the scum knew a hider existed, so the likely hood of the "non dream receptive false positive" is super minimized with her.

but even without that she's town. that's never changing.

Cephrir is something I need to consider as we go, but the fact is, I can't see you and TWIE being scum together, so if I eliminate MAth from the pool because she's town, drealmerz is scum and hebi is town... only one of you can be scum which PoE'd Cephrir to the last slot?

Your reasoning re; "Hid behind her before scum knew my ability" is actually fairly solid reasoning and something I can understand from you, the whole "Even without that she's town" is something that I need you to elaborate on, put it this way, I think you're scum together, you convincing me that she's town here works towards convincing me that you're town here and increasing the odds that I vote Dreamlz, so actually work with me here, I don't give a fuck if you think I could be scum or not, just tell me what she's done this game that you think points towards her being town over scum and comment on my issue with her read progression on you throughout the entire game.

[Regfan]

IN BOTH OF YOUR WORLDS.

DREALMERZ IS SCUM.

HERE'S A SIMPLE THOUGHT EXPERIMENT.

IF YOU THINK I'M SCUM WITH DREALMERZ FUCKING HELP ME LYNCH HIM. THINK I'M BUSSING? GREAT! HOP ABOARD, MOTHERFUCKER.

Reading comprehension required, I almost typed that in caps.

I think LLD+Hebi+Dreamlz, LLD+Hebi+TWIE & LLD+Hebi+Ceph are all possible worlds that I think are possible listed in descending strength order.

[Regfan]

Just telling me that you live with her and know how she plays does JACK SHIT for me.

I already think your alignments are near lock to be the same here, I'm not trying to argue that if you're town you're wrong on her. I'm saying I think the world is you're both town or you're both scum here, you convincing me that she's town here therefore obviously works towards convincing me you're town here. So what has she done here SPECIFICALLY that I should be town reading or you think is outside of her scum range.

[Regfan]

Yeah I'm going to walk away from the computer before I actually end up all caps posting.

LLD - I'm hoping to actually solve the entire game here today, that means determining the scum team and obviously lynching correct. If you can convince me that Hebichan is town here then the teams exactly Ceph/Dreamlz/TWIE and we can chain lynch them and win the game, from your position this should be a very straightforward thing to answer.

[Regfan]

I'll be back in a few hours, I'm hoping this thread hasn't filled with 30 pages of useless shit in the meantime.

I've got a few hours reading I'll commit to this game tonight but really want to work towards voting soon, don't want a repeat of the offsite LYLO game I played where we ran it down to deadline and panic lynched.

[Regfan]

This entire conversation feels like it's going nowhere, I don't find LLD's explanation and decision hiding behind Hebichan problematic at all, if she's town here and is fairly solid at reading Hebichan then that's a perfect N1 hiding choice, you don't use the Hider as a cop and hide behind an unknown player in the early game, you want to survive and going on someone you're fairly sure is town is the move to do so, especially if you think they won't be shot.

I have much more of an issue with the attempted hide behind the Imperium slot N2 (?).

And god I suck, I really do need to close this and actually take some time to think about it away from the thread.

I'll not take 5+ days, or at least hope not because will imagine we'll all lose our mind if it goes that far with the current gamestate.

[Regfan]

The whole "Reg/Ceph/Math" don't vote until the others have, or "I'm not voting until Ceph/TWIE do" type things are really silly and come across as scum motivated type stances to have, at this point it's a case of if you're 100% locked into a stance of someone being scum or very confident then voting helps reduce worlds, if you're not confident then you should be discussing who you think might be scum and why; I'm working towards hopefully voting in the next day or two since the more this is playing out the uglier the insults/interactions are getting, reading I did last night ruled out the LLD/Hebi/Ceph world that I was considering so I'm really only looking at three worlds now; LLD/Hebi/Dreamlz, LLD/Hebi/TWIE, Dreamlz/TWIE/Ceph.

Cephrir, would like this though;

Try and type your read on ever player in two lines per play, completely unfiltered ad unedited first thoughts that come to your mind.

Fair warning this is going to be a stack of waffles because I'm quite unconfident.

TWIE: A few town pings from Syr, then nothing forever. TWIE himself I have no confidence in reading because I've mislynched him for this kind of play before.
hebi: I remember townreading her strongly back D1/D2 when Imperium was offering to die for her, but she's done fuckall since then and her inability to see me as town is driving me up the wall.
dreal: He's a hard read for me and has been all game, because he always feels like he lives on another planet; his priorities don't make sense to me nor do the things he chooses to read into. I've just slotted him as null all game and hoped we wouldn't get here.
LLD: I know she's been busy but god I've just wanted so badly to see a little fire and some believably town play. There have been places where I thought she was bending over backwards to reach the conclusion she wanted to reach wrt her role and scumreads.
Reg: I agree that you were doing some good gamesolving and leading early on but I feel like you should be panicking now and you aren't. Also, why are you still alive? However I'm not going to consider hider-godfathers because that's just so cruel and stupid, so this is off the table right now.
Math: Probably town for being Sakura. Frustratingly insane.

Thanks for this, there's a few players where your thoughts seems..entirely undeveloped though? Like admittedly seem to have put TWIE/Dreamlz to the side a lot and done minimal to actually try and get a read on them and when I questioned TWIE on things yesterday you'd jumped in to defend him stating this is meta and that you're fine with it which is ??? if you're struggling to get a read on him yourself, like that combined with your 'hard meta town read' on Syranana earlier makes me worry about you two being a team a lot.

[Regfan]

Yeah, nah I really really can't see this being 14:3, particularly with Cabd and Ffyer as the mods, there's pretty much always 4 scum here.

[Regfan]

Really dislike both sides of the LLD/Dreamlz interaction when they're talking about TWIE in Post 4943 and Post 4945, the pot shots and accusations feel so fake.

[Regfan]

i won't argue with that.

i am somewhat of a gut player these days and when things don't just come to me i'm left a bit lost.

i didn't want twie to be lynched purely for being twie, and i've seen things end badly when people try to kill him for that reason. i wasn't trying to say he was town, only that that logic for an attack on him wasn't sound.
^i get shit for doing this quite frequently as me shooting down an attack is perceived as defending when i don't see it that way.

My qualms not with you explaining the type of player he is meta wise, it's that I don't see any instance where you actually attempted to sort or get a read on him and shot down people questioning him (Not scum reading, questioning) which makes a lot of sense if you're together, much less if you're town.

[Regfan]

Lets make this simple:

There is no world in which I am scum correct?

Cephrir TWIE and Drealmerz have intent to vote LLD

If they are the entire town + you you have a team of me/LLD/Hebi

This is a world you are not considering. This means there is at least confirmed scum in Cephrir/TWIE/Drealmerz yes?

Correct.
Sort of correct?
Correct.
Correct. And yes, I'm 100% that there's at least one scum in that list already?

[Regfan]

And this is LyLO correct.

So if you know scum is in one list you go with the other side.

Which means we lynch Drealmerz right?

Which of your worlds had Drealmerz scum in it?

Worlds with Dreamlz = TWIE/Dreamlz/Ceph or LLD/Hebi/Dreamlz

[Regfan]

Yeah, I think I am give me a few minutes, on a work call at the moment, want to process it a little more in my head.

[Regfan]

LLD and Hebi are on Drealmerz and Day isn't over so those would be the only two world yep.

And if LLD and Hebi are bussing then we let them lol.

So you with me? And ready for day end?

Okay, finished my call.

If it's LLD/Hebichan/Dreamlz then lynching Dreamlz here is fine and doable with them bussing each other votes.
If it's Dreamlz/Cephrir/TWIE then lynching Dreamlz here is fine and doable with their votes and mine and yours.
If it's LLD/Hebichan/TWIE we lose by lynching Dreamlz, but if it's LLD/Hebichan/TWIE we probably lose via Dreamlz being mslynched at some point anyway?

Like I get where you're coming from in that lynching Dreamlz beats the most worlds and beats the worlds we can beat.

Just how confident are you in it not being the last world? If you don't think it's the last world then voting Draemlz is fine.

[Regfan]

Reallllllllllly hate Dreamlz reaction to all of this, also hate how this peak of activity is while I'm at work.

Would much rather be home thinking this through right now.

[Regfan]

I'd not be home from work for like ~11 hours and I'm worried to thread will go to shits by then.

[Regfan]

I've voted Olympic medal too ftr.

[Regfan]

I'd rather vote while we're both around I think which sadly is now? Odds are super low any Americans will be around when I get home.

If you're happy to rule out Hebi/LLD/TWIE then we're doing Dreamlz since he's in both remaining worlds, if it's that exact world it's going to hurt though.

[Regfan]

Fuck it then, I'm sorry if I'm wrong.

Vote: Dreamlz

[Regfan]

I think? that's everyone that hasn't voted yet posting after my vote with no blitz which really hopefully means I'm right here.

[Regfan]

Yeah no quickhammer is a really good sign.

FTR if I die tonight I still think the LLD/Hebi/Dreamlz world is slightly more likely than the Dreamlz/Cephrir/TWIE one.

[Regfan]

Don't discount Hebi/Dreamlz/LLD entirely please.

[Regfan]

Thanks for the game, glad it's over; got away with murder here to be honest.

Have lots more thoughts that I want to put down but will go into them when I get home tonight, is there access to the Dead QT yet?

[Regfan]

Okay some thoughts;

Frankly I don't think either town or scum played

great

as a unit at all, we ended up winning because we managed to get a little more cohesion than the town did and had a few night actions go our way. I think there were plenty of townies that were very accurate with their reads either throughout the entire game or at certain sections, all of [Mhsmith, NMS, Cephrir, Maria, Brian, Serra, Imperium, Varsoon, Floodgates and Hebichan] had decent games re; read accuracy but the problem was the ones that could have done something about those reads died before they had the chance to and the rest were far too passive when it came to actually pushing through a lynch which gave us control to just re-divert attention to a townie that's being misread somewhere. It happened D2 when town were going to correctly lynch Syrana near the end of the day phase and we hard pushed it through on Nos, it happened when the Maria lynch occurred and again with Desperado. I think a lot of those players I listed need to take away from this game that they need to actually try and put together stronger cases behind their scum reads and secure that the lynch actually lands there otherwise town will just passively sit around until near the end of the phase giving us a huge amount of control.

I haven't had a full look at the setup and the potential dreams but I think the setup was scum sided, not to the point where we had a huge advantage that town couldn't come back against but enough so that I'd say this is probably 55/45 scum/town before roles being handed out. People need to remember that while the dreams didn't actually end up giving town a lot it potentially could have and we were just as in the dark about what's coming up as the town making it harder for us to move around, had the masons been a little less obvious and town had 1-2 good dreams it'd have been an uphill battle for us. Regardless, I don't think it's the setup that cost the town the game, it's most certainly was a case of town losing it via not having any cohesion when it comes to agreeing on which scum to lynch, it allowed us to create divisions inside the town and link players together.

Will post the rest later.

[Regfan]

Few other small things I guess;

I really should have been given more flack for the choice of giving the vest to Sakura, handing it to a townie was literally a must do since LLD or TWIE claiming to have it was a scum claim and no one claiming it is a complete outage but were I town there's no doubt in my mind I'd have give it to one of the trio of Floodgates/Imperium/NMS. A few people touched on this briefly, mostly Mhsmith but town didn't really converse about this like they should have and most people shrugged off the point when they shouldn't have.

Similarly LLD mixing up her reasoning behind hiding behind Hebichan saying that she did it because Hebichan claimed that she's affected by dreams when she claimed that D2 and LLD hid behind Hebichan D1 was a huge point that only Desperado really ran with, LLD covered it up with a semi-decent explanation but it most certainly should have received more attention.

TWIE shouldn't have been allowed to skate by as much as he did, people need to learn to pressure/question players like him and if you get nothing out of them just outright consider lynching them, you don't want someone in LYLO that you have zero read on, hasn't stated many reads and isn't likely to start.

But yeah, town overall need to start reading what others are typing and think about things more rather than just getting into spam wars.

[Regfan]

I very strongly disagree with that assessment there Mhsmith but it's clear we see balance very different and there's a reason I've stopped reviewing games inside the NRG, they make setups ridiculously town sided for the most part, think this certainly could have been better balanced and think having 'clues in flavour' and things like that is the type of modding I don't really like but I don't think this setup massively tilted the result, town just having zero chemistry did.

[Regfan]

Could just drop the conversation, don't think anyone's attempting to be malicious and it's just a disagreement/misunderstanding.

Instead lets focus on how much a noob Floodgates is, lynching mafia getting shot N1 and still losing, only

really

bad players can do that.

[Regfan]

God damn i hate scum.

Also this. Being scum is the worst, especially in a game lasting this long. Both heads of Morph are now no my hit list.

Especially the one that enjoyed me replacing in as scum, trust me I know which one of you that was!

[Regfan]

And yeah like you said town never really did stuff. It seemed like a constant theme of everyone saying LLD was probably scum and TWIE was probably scum but never really bothering to try to lynch either of them. I think that was a huge reason why you were able to coast so blatantly, you kind of fit in with town just sitting around passively not really gamesolving. I think you played really well though, you were town enough in the first couple of days to carry you through and you basically carried the team. I think if anyone with less of a commanding presence had been in your slot this would very possibly have been a town win.

Thanks but yeah, the night kills should have been a fairly big give away about our entire scum team, we were shooting people that were a) Fairly accurate with their reads, b) Had some sort of control of the day phases and c) Would mean leaving alive players that suspected each other, people brought it up a bit and Cephrir and Mhsmith as well as a few other players like MariaR brought up the "Why's Reg alive" and "He's not actually solving" which frankly was very accurate and very hard to respond to, I'd have played this

very

differently as town but again no one got together to lynch, we were just standing back a lot waiting for when we actually needed to chime in, your assessment of LLD mostly posting to push people scum reading her isn't off base at all and Syranas vote on Dreamlz was something he thought was actually the hammer. I don't think any of us scum members had a strong game here, all of us were strongly suspected by several townies throughout the game and none of us can really look in a mirror and say "Played that awesomely" but town being so passive, lurking so much at times and then turning up to spam post rather useless things made this game workable for us and we did decently with that.

Could just drop the conversation, don't think anyone's attempting to be malicious and it's just a disagreement/misunderstanding.

Instead lets focus on how much a noob Floodgates is, lynching mafia getting shot N1 and still losing, only

really

bad players can do that.

Truth hurts? What do you get when you put two noobs in one slot? Two dead noobs.