A Mid-Scummer Night's Dream - D.S. al Fine

[Brian Skies]

Could be scum/Town/¯\_(ツ)_/¯/Town

[Brian Skies]

What about his play seems to be town-indicative for you? I know you just said you don't have any reason to scumread him, but I don't know anything about his play, and thus don't understand what his scumrange is or why people think he's outside of that scumrange.

[Brian Skies]

There's also not really anything in his play that makes me think he's done anything this day phase other than just hang out in the background.

[Brian Skies]

There's also not really anything in his play that makes me think he's done anything this day phase other than just hang out in the background.

I say this and then I look back at his posts and get conflicted feelings again.

[Brian Skies]

I'm going to sleep. I'm sure you guys will figure something out.

Pretend my reads don't exist and that I'm open to lynching whomever.

[Brian Skies]

Hug team!

Brian Skies
Sakura (moved up 2)

You're neat~

Regfan
Varsoon
Lady Lambdadelta (still waiting a bit on claim)
Hebi (Moved up 3 )
Smith (Moved up 3)

I don't know about you

Desp (moved down 2)
Nosferatu
drealmerz7
NoticeMeSenpai (moved up 1 )
Imperium (moved up 1)

Try a bit harder

Rope suits you well

Syryana (moved down 1)
Cephrir

I would put nos with my lean tr's but I don't think there on that level for me

What's the reasoning behind the tier changes?

[Brian Skies]

I voted dream 3 and then dream 2.

[Brian Skies]

You forgot drealz.

[Brian Skies]

Why're you self-voting?

[Brian Skies]

i won't need to, i just said fuck it and used my ability last night. i will explain everything sometime toDay.

How did you use it if everyone was roleblocked?

[Brian Skies]

In no particular order

Desp
Dreal
Maria
Imperium
Reg

--Line of Lynchability--

hebichan
Lady Lambdadelta

Syryana
Sakura Hana
mhsmith0
Ceph

[Brian Skies]

Hebi's reads?

Reg
LLD
Syry
Sakua
mhs

--Line of Lynchability--

Desp
Dreal
Maria
Imperium
Ceph

[Brian Skies]

You won't.

[Brian Skies]

why do you want to eat a lynch? Seems worse than not lynching obv town.

I rather be lynched when we have a ML then none at all and given my actions were "scum play" (even though I have a

very

different outlook on the end day) If getting me lynched so people will focus on the real scum I'll happily do it regardless of my role,

What makes you think we're not lynching?

[Brian Skies]

and given my actions were "scum play" (even though I have a very different outlook on the end day)

Also what?

[Brian Skies]

Pedit: I don't understand your question. I don't think you're "not lynching"

I thought you meant you would rather be lynched than us not lynching. Reading again, I believe you meant you'd rather be lynched before MYLO/LYLO.

[Brian Skies]

Last night's nightmare blocked all non-factional night actions.

Things this setup is:

Lie-Free

At no point will the mods, role PMs, or any other info generated by anything other than players lie to you. We further certify that nothing about the information presented here will be misleading or deceptive in nature.

i won't need to, i just said fuck it and used my ability last night. i will explain everything sometime toDay.

When I get back, I fully expect people to have explained why they're ignoring Ceph's claim.

[Brian Skies]

and I didn't bother reading last night because I was like "screw reading if there are scum vigs or something"

Lol. That sounds like me.

If Brian or anyone else feels like explaining how I'm somehow scummy that'd be cool too I guess

Not so much scummy as I haven't had any reason to think you're town, and have found you outside of my townpile due to constant bouncing around and failure to establish any sort of reads to hold you accountable for. I know you started off going through and talking about a bunch of baku associatives, but that abruptly ended before you reached the part of the game regarding my case against hebi

(who I secretly think could be town but is forever doomed into my 'could lynch' pile because I hate the way she claimed)

. I'm also not a fan of your Maria push, but that probably has more to do with me just disagreeing with you rather than me finding anything about it scummy.

Fun Fact: hebi appears 114 times in just the first page of my iso.

[Brian Skies]

Smith, have you played with Maria before?

Yes I have, and I don't feel like I'm close to an expert at reading her, which is a big part of why I'm still considering the possibility that I'm actually wrong here (even though I really really don't think I am)

@drealz: Maria's hammer was almost certainly a scum hammer, but I think it's probably accurate that she's not enjoying herself at all, I just think that it's not really AI, and I don't think it's helpful to really go down that route *shrugs*

Why was Maria's hammer "almost certainly a scum hammer"? The nature of her defense doesn't really make me think that she's scummy -

she prefers scum and considers herself as better as scum and the laying down and getting lynched because she's frustrated doesn't seem like a scum response in this scenario

.

The reason I ask is that if you don't have a lot of experience with both sides of Maria I find it a bit odd that Tammcho would expect you to know the bolded. I can't really explain particulars but it bothers me. Maybe I'm overthinking it?

VOTE: MariaR

I don't think Nacho expects Smith to know the bolded, and it reads to me like he was just giving his 2 cents on Maria here.

[Brian Skies]

I hate the

way

you claimed, not the fact that you did claim.

[Brian Skies]

4) I pop in with a wall talking about how I think nos is town, then vote maria with a fairly clear "I'd rather wagon her" vote

I go back and forth in whether nos-Maria makes sense or not (some early stuff seems kind of skeezy if you just assume scum!maria) but this is also just openly and blatantly sheeping maria, and I guess I don't quite see how it's obvscum even ignoring the Maria part?

I'm also nit sure at all how to interpret Maria's hesitance on nos wagon now after being perfectly willing to hammer a non SR in drealz knowing that it'd cut off discussion for the day (I really struggle to believe she came up with that whole post in the very same minute I unvoted which seems like a ridiculously unlikely reaction, nit to mention the post itself didn't read at all like "lol imma fake this hammer for *reasons*), which kinda makes me waffle on whether nos is being saved or maria figures it'll go through anyway (very very possible) and wants to keep hands clean a bit.

I don't know where you were indicating that you thought Nos was town in your wall post. Your Nos-read seemed to be going back and forth actually, and your conclusion here reads more like you were setting up a Maria push regardless of the Nos-flip.

TLDR I'll hammer nos before bed but it's basically a null wagon and I think I'd always prefer Maria here.

VOTE: mariar

Really nit sure if we have the bodies to flip it tho so idk

Your follow up vote post here also sets your Nos read up as a nullread, not as a townread.

3) Regfan eggs her on to hammering (if she's town I think this is fairly skeezy on his end, though OTOH I don't see where the scum wagon possibilities were so I'm not sure what scum!reg's mostive there is other than maybe inducing a fuckup that kills two townies and wastes away day 3???)

This is another one of those bizarre comments from you where it feels like you're setting up another scumread (while simultaneously setting up a path for you to back out of the read). And I'm not sure why you think it's skeezy on his end to ask for her to hammer if she's town.

[Brian Skies]

Also, Smith, if your impression of Nos at EOD yesterday was that you thought Nos was town, I don't get why your initial reaction is to wagon the person that doesn't want to lynch Nos instead of, y'know, talking to her about the read.

[Brian Skies]

Also, don't like drealmerz's general response to pressure - read there is trending towards scum.

What about it didn't you like?

Also, what was your impression of LLD's complete 180 flip onto the Dreal wagon yesterday?

[Brian Skies]

i realize you're locked in to your partnership with lld but

1)

i didn't ask you and

b)

you didn't even understand what i said

also, colored vote counts are lame @mod.

I'm loving the switch from numerals to letters.

Also, what is this colored vote count you speak of?

[Brian Skies]

I no longer want to lynch Dreal.

Also, Color Wheel hasn't moved.

@Brian: Why were you no longer okay with lynching drealmerz here?

I didn't like the way the wagon built up and thought the claim was town.

[Brian Skies]

I actually cannot believe that Drealmerz genuinely believes NMS can be scum.

I would lynch Drealmerz solely based on this, for the record. Given the dude was present for the entire NMS/Me interaction, there is NO FUCKING WAY IN HELL he genuinely is espousing a theory world in which NMS is anything but town. Fucking..... I don't care about my prior reservations. That shit is unacceptable for a townmindset.

I thought this was a pretty lame reason to flip onto Dreal, especially after she was so confident about Dreal being town earlier. And it gave me really bad vibes about the entire thing.

Spoiler: LLD Quotes

God, I just... Dreal feels town to me wrt the Baku lynch.

If you think they're both scum, then vote LLD. I don't know why that's so hard for you.

Honestly, can we do Desperado lynch today instead? I feel way more confident in that, and this whole interactions feels fucking weird for Drealmer scum, you know?

dreal is town here. dreal can play better than he did vs lld if he wants. he really doesn't care which means he probably town.
NoticeMeSenpai is heading more towards scum. Their low-key OMGUS vote on me combined with no reasoning other than a reason which they then said they were also doing in the next sentence shows that they are completetely BSing it.
mastin/varsoon makes sense with the defence from them.
Desp is still just lynchbait.
-baku

not again!!!

silly drealmer! get your head out of your ass and into the game!

it's here! really! but where to begin?

well on who you think is most likely scum, how about that?

hmmmmm, probably LDD, maria not sitting too well either

LDD?!?! REALLY!? WHY?!

ehh, can't really articulate it, that slot just gives me bad feels more than others is all, like each of their posts is carefully done as to not say too much but still seem like they're contributing and gamesolving

it also seems like they got the wagon they wanted going going and are set and done for the Day

This is probably the fakest psot I have seen in this game so far

These two posts, are a big contributor to it.

And then NMS said they'd lynch Dreal out of policy, and I didn't like that either.

What was town about the claim?

I'm Tatania from Midsummer Night's Dream

I'm vanilla but I'm dream receptive

top TR is smith (though his waffling around and willingness to vote anywhere raises eyebrows, I actually understand it)
then NMS

I'm not TRing anyone else and most of you are in a big gloppy pile of "yeah I'd lynch that" (which is why the smith waffling doesn't reduce him to a lean)

what else do you want from me?

My role isn't actually alignment indicative, My role is just that I am the target for dreams more often.

Dreal's claim felt solidly town, in that he was immediately willing to share it (and oddly enough, he later claimed that he was crumbing something else although I just thought he was crumbing dreamer all game). He also dropped the flavor and I find the flavor believably town.

Take hebi's claim and why I hate it so much. She doesn't claim her flavor and she doesn't claim her role. It is incredibly vague in that she just says it doesn't lean her alignment in any way and she parrots the same statement NMS made about their claim much earlier in the game.

Spoiler: NMS Quote

For better or for worse, our role dictates we are disproportionately likely to be affected by dreams.

She doesn't claim Dreamer, so we couldn't have been able to tell if that was what she was claiming at the time. She also doesn't claim her flavor, so we have nothing to measure her claim by. And regarding the last part about her parroting NMS, it's hard to tell if she honestly believes that or if she is just hoping to either appeal to NMS or just get more information from them. If town, this was just a really shoddy and lazy claim. If scum, it feels like an attempt at an information grab.

[Brian Skies]

I hid behind Claire night one because she mentioned she was dream sensitive

When did this happen? I may have missed it.

I also visited Claire because I had a town read on her, I hadn't crumbed any targets, and I felt I would be more useful alive (and could have been a nightkill for certain people).

Regardless, the fact that I am alive at all after visiting Claire night 1 confirms she is not scum. No Godfathers, no nothing. I successfully hid behind her, and did not die.

Okay. I did have hider as a possibility for you, but I crossed it off because I didn't find any crumbs.

Who did you target last night?

[Brian Skies]

@Brian - Our reads have somehow massively diverted, your reads in Post 2554 are pretty ??? to me at a lot of places, the Maria/Desp/Dreal reads I'm not getting either your read in general or the strength of your read there and the Smith & Sakura placements I'd bet the game on being wrong; want to run me through your town reads on the three I listed and I'll go over the two I think you're wrong on? No real rush getting to it since I can't commit to a heavy reread until the weekend anyway.

I think you're confusing a reads list with lynchpools. Although everyone above the line is definitely a townread for me. I'm not going to explain why I think someone is town. It's a lot of work to do, especially for a game this size, and if I'm wrong, I don't want to be the reason why people don't look into it. Although, if there's something you don't like about my townreads, I don't mind you telling me and we can have a discussion on it.

Now, if you were looking for a reads list, it would look like this:

Desp, Maria, Reg, Imperium, dreal
Sakura
hebi, LLD
smith
Syry
Ceph

[Brian Skies]

Oi, isnt it a bad idea for LLD to say who she targeted last night? she was roleblocked so it's more likely she'd try again tonight.

No? The way I see it, we already know everyone was roleblocked, so the main issue of improperly clearing someone as town when they shouldn't be is off the table. I don't see why her claiming who her target would have been would be an issue since she can still change her target for tonight for any variety of reasons.

[Brian Skies]

So who did you target last night?

[Brian Skies]

Oh, did you actually crumb it?

[Brian Skies]

Okay, I found something passable. So I'm fine with your claim.

Still waiting on Ceph to explain how he didn't scumslip today.

[Brian Skies]

I'm not really going to fret too much about it because I'm pretty sure it was mentioned that she was busy and then had a fever on day 1.

We can always send her to hide behind someone sketchy, and if she's still around in a few days, we can revisit her then.

[Brian Skies]

I also visited Claire because I had a town read on her, I hadn't crumbed any targets, and I felt I would be more useful alive (and could have been a nightkill for certain people).

Also the part about her choosing to visit a townread because she didn't get a chance to crumb anything seems fine to me based on what I remember of her situation on Day 1.

[Brian Skies]

These Hebi votes are seriously questionable. And by seriously questionable I mean the girl isn't scum and yet there's a big wagon on her so there's def. scum influence here.

LLD's first post of Day 2.

[Brian Skies]

And your thoughts on Ceph?

[Brian Skies]

I'm going to be honest with you in that I'm not actually thinking too much about the LLD claim because I'm pretty sure Ceph just scumslipped here and I don't particularly see an issue with letting LLD live another day and maybe seeing if she either catches a bullet or scum for us.

[Brian Skies]

What part of "I wanted to be shot at" did you not understand? The whole goal was to look as vulnerable to a shot as possible and then dodge the shot. If there's no kill that night, well, guess who I lynch the next day?

What if scum hits a bulletproof vest?

[Brian Skies]

A random dream-receptive player will be able to send another player a one-shot bulletproof vest. The vest must be given tonight.

[Brian Skies]

Can you not?

[Brian Skies]

that or some form of informed townie or weak type role

These were the ones I had it narrowed down to yesterday, but leaned towards the former based on failure to find a crumb. Hider makes sense to me. Flavor is a bit iffy to me, but I'm admittedly not familiar enough with the Wheel of Time series to know if Aviendha was/wasn't a dreamwalker (and I can't find anything online to point definitively in one direction or another).

Still think it's possible she's telling the truth here and she's not my first choice for a lynch. And clearing targets as town before suiciding onto scum

is

what I'd consider optimal play for that role.

Fair enough re; not going into them in depth. Not quite sure I understand the difference between a lynch pool and a reads list though, barring a player I really think is -EV to have around as town, I'm never including a town read inside a lynch pool and it'll only be scum reads / null reads so mind just running me through where you're actually at with Sakura since the difference in your placement of your read and lynchability of her is hard to follow. I'll also take more words on your Cephrir scum read since you seem pretty confident in that one and it's not something I'm sharing. What do you think of the way he's discussed claiming / his role (If you want to hold off answering this until he has actually claimed that's fine).

It's more like, I have townreads, weak townreads, nullreads, and scumreads. But I'm not the type of person that's confident in getting a lynch onto a scumread or nullread. Giving out a pool of players that I want to lynch (scumreads and null-scum reads) and then a pool of players that I'm okay with lynching (other nullreads I'm unsure of and maybe weaker townreads that I wouldn't miss) seems to make it easier to get something done and compromise if I can't get what I want.

I would still lynch LLD/dreal and could compromise on smith, Nos, syr, Sakura (convincing would be needed on the latter group though).

So when I make a post like this, I'm saying I think LLD/dreal are probably scum. Smith, Nos, Syry, and Sakura are all nullish reads that I would not miss and would compromise on if I can't get what I want, although none of them are players I think are particularly scummy.

In no particular order

Desp
Dreal
Maria
Imperium
Reg

--Line of Lynchability--

hebichan
Lady Lambdadelta

Syryana
Sakura Hana
mhsmith0
Ceph

In this, I'm mostly saying that I'm not currently interested in lynching any of Desp, Dreal, Maria, Imperium, or Reg. I have hebi and LLD in their own group since I feel like their alignments are dependent on each other. And everyone else is either scummy (Ceph), null-scummy (Syry, who to me seems to just be coasting), or in the null-leaning scum (Smith) to super weak town (Sakura) range.

Regarding Sakura, there isn't anything in her posts that I don't think could have been faked. I know she's indicated she's a power role and that she'd like to claim, but that's pretty much the only reason I have her where she is as far as reads go (this is not an invitation to claim). I also tend to forget that she's indicating being a PR, so that's why she keeps slipping into my lynchpile since I don't have anything else that makes her lean either direction for me.

I don't like the way Ceph indicated being a role that needed to hammer without playing towards that in any way outside of his [two?] softclaims. I find it odd that his claim seems to have changed, and if scum, I do think he could have missed the part about all non-factional actions having been blocked last night (especially since it wasn't something that was made public until daystart). I find his reads incredibly lazy (largely just OMGUS), and I did like the case (albeit not very strong) Maria made about him in this post, mainly in that I've had a similar impression on his play this game. I will also include that Cephrir did move his vote from Baku to hebi here just after I decided to sheep you and turn Baku into a wagon, something I think should be noted, especially if Ceph was bussing and suddenly decided that he didn't want a wagon there. I also found Baku's comment about Ceph's vote in this post incredibly awkward, and still have no idea where Baku was planning to go with that one and reads to me as distancing.

Regarding Maria, I find it hard to believe she's scum with Ceph, largely in that I don't see her trying to drive his lynch that hard near deadline if they're partners. Granted, I do think it's possible she's the type to just hard bus a buddy (I don't actually know anything about her play outside of Civ Mafia), but I don't get how doing so at that particular moment would benefit her, and she did seem pretty frustrated after the fact. I'd still lynch Ceph before her if that were the case. The Dreal-hammer is something I'm not holding against her because of the looming deadline, and same thing for the hammer on Nos. I get that she had Nos and Dreal in the same area as far as her reads were concerned, but she explained she actually had Nos as a weak townread. With deadline looming and the immediate alternative being her either getting run up or lynched, I don't see how this scenario was anything other than a Lose-Lose situation for her, and I completely get why she'd ask to be vigged there. Sadly, I don't have anything else to townread her other than gut, and I don't really want to defend a self-voter, but I still get enough warm and fuzzy feelings from her overall play that I'm pretty much completely uninterested in voting her right now.

I don't know Smith and don't know why people are townreading him. He entered into the game with a bunch of observations about Baku interactions, but without any conclusions, it's just busy work. I found his issue with Maria not being here immediately after she said we may end up with a no lynch to be taken largely out of proportion (as if people couldn't possibly have other obligations ), and felt he was mostly just looking for something to attack rather than trying to understand where she was coming from. I'm also not a fan of his bouncing around with almost zero reads, and some of his hammer stalls could have been intentional, either in that he didn't want to actually hammer the wagon or he didn't want the blood on his hands. I'm especially not a fan of how he treated Maria around the Nos wagon, and still think he should have been more open to discussing that read with her if he truly thought Nos was town (which wasn't the impression I got out of his EOD wall post). It seemed to me like he was mostly just setting up a jump onto Maria there. Not condemning him to die, but I'm definitely not a fan of his right now.

If there is a townread I'm wrong on, I would bet on it being Desp (after that, probably Imperium, but only because I get random Ceph-Imperium distancing paranoia). I had stronger feelings on Sunlit earlier, but I mostly just remember thinking this post was pretty town and didn't get any of the fencesitty or wishy washy impressions that were expounded upon by Nos. Most, if not all, of his comments in there feel pretty genuine to me and I can see why he thinks the things he does. Hilariously, his comment on Baku is hidden in the Nos spoiler, but I think that's probably just coincidence. I like Desp's entrance into the game and had pretty much the exact same feeling as he did in this post. While frustrating at the time, I do think this post was very town from Desp, largely in that I had not considered how LLD's guarantee would be confusing, but if you assume that Mason's are the only role that could guarantee that, then it makes sense, and I'm not sure how easily that reaction can be faked. The reason why I said I would not stand in the way of his lynch is because I did misread him in The Sexy Brutale, and am currently not confident enough in my ability to read him to derail a wagon on him.

[Brian Skies]

Ceph.

[Brian Skies]

I already figured this. I just enjoy giving you a hard time.

[Brian Skies]

Don't see how that would prove anything, unless Imperium just confirms it. That would be interesting.

[Brian Skies]

Yeah, sure, I can wait.

[Brian Skies]

Does it not include Nos?

[Brian Skies]

I'd comment about Brian's stuff but having now had him completely ignore my (repeated) point about the fact that I was accusing Maria of HYPOCRISY

I know exactly where you were going with that accusation, and I don't see what that has to do with my read on you at all. Just because you're arguing a different point doesn't mean I don't think you weren't really trying to understand Maria's position there, which is what I'm really getting at.

[Brian Skies]

The VC I got shows 6/4/2 for day (I guess 3 people didn't vote?? and at least two are wrong or lying? maybe i don't understand how dreams getting hammered works) and 8/3 for night (which still seems to show some nonvoters

Did you know that if you remove Nos, Varsoon, and NMS from both votecounts and yourself from the second one that your total number of votes will probably add up (assuming Imperium did vote)? If true, it does indicate that there is probably a liar in the first vote. But it's a really weird thing to lie about, imo.

[Brian Skies]

The substantive part of it was the specific accusation that I was attacking Maria for not being here, even though that was very clearly not what I was attacking her for.

Just because I'm not saying 'Smith attacked her for being a hypocrite' doesn't mean I'm not talking about it.

DO I HAVE TO SPELL EVERYTHING I SAY OUT FOR YOU?

You've also (it seems) shown no real interest in engaging with any logic others have put down about why I'm town

What have they said that makes you town?

[Brian Skies]

in fact i can guarantee that NMS/Varsoon are in there because I got my results before night started

Then idk. The utility of your role makes no sense to me and feels more useful to scum than it would for town. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Brian Skies]

We know scum used a Global Roleblock. So to me, if scum can tell which vote is going to win the dream vote, they can decide if they wanted to use the roleblock after the moonrise phase.

There are too many holes with your claim. I'm not really condemning you yet, because idk if you or someone else is just overlooking something really important, but I don't get what the point of your role is.

[Brian Skies]

You're claiming to have being given a dream vote at moonrise that takes into account all the players up to that point, no?

But if someone dies, then your votecount suddenly becomes ineffective because you have to account for the people who can no longer account for their missing votes. It also doesn't lead to finding scum outside of wild speculation. And it's not like you've claimed you can do anything else with this votecount.

[Brian Skies]

Start with regfan (who I think you're TRing?), then look for others. If you cared about my read, I feel like you should at least be aware of it?

Who do you think that wall was in response to?

[Brian Skies]

Oh, right, 'hole' probably wasn't the best word choice for it.

I just don't understand how it's supposed to help town, but it makes some sort of sense to me as a scum role?

[Brian Skies]

Who do you think that wall was in response to?

Well in that case the ? becomes why you completely ignored his arguments and just reiterated your own instead of engaging with arguments that you're now admitting you were aware of.

Because I don't care about what he said regarding you? I get why he might townread you, but it just doesn't do it for me. So I gave him the reasons why I think you could be scum,

which is what he asked me for

.

[Brian Skies]

Because I don't care about what he said regarding you? I get why he might townread you, but it just doesn't do it for me. So I gave him the reasons why I think you could be scum, which is what he asked me for.

So basically sorting me isn't a priority for you, basically. Gets a bit of a eyebrow raise, but I guess it's a conceivable thought process.

No, it means I don't agree with his statements and I'm waiting for him to respond to me about what I've said about you.

[Brian Skies]

No, it means I don't agree with his statements and I'm waiting for him to respond to me about what I've said about you.

Is "ignore what someone else says, say what you want to say, and only engage on the terms you want to engage on" a standard approach for you?

Yes, actually.

Do you find it necessary to comment on every single thing someone else says, even if you either don't have anything to say about it or don't think it's necessary to do so?

[Brian Skies]

No. OTOH if someone I trust is explicitly disagreeing on me on something I care about, I feel like I'd usually care about engaging their arguments rather than being like "eh fuck that I'm just gonna say waht i want to say"

Wtf do you think Reg and I are doing right now? He's given his piece, I've given mine, and now I'm waiting for his thoughts on it.

What about an ongoing discussion do you just not get?

[Brian Skies]

No. OTOH if someone I trust is explicitly disagreeing on me on something I care about, I feel like I'd usually care about engaging their arguments rather than being like "eh fuck that I'm just gonna say waht i want to say"

Wtf do you think Reg and I are doing right now? He's given his piece, I've given mine, and now I'm waiting for his thoughts on it.

What about an ongoing discussion do you just not get?

Typically when i have an ongoing discussion I engage with at least some of the other side's arguments as well. I guess I'm weird?

Or maybe I'm just weird.

I don't get why you're so butthurt about me scumreading you. It's not like you've addressed anything I've said outside of the Maria hypocrisy thing either.

[Brian Skies]

If anything his play this day phase has strengthened my town read there.

Vague statement. Probably just his topic sentence.

The way he's gone about phrasing and discussing his MariaR scum read comes across very genuine.

Not sure what he meant about this, but I'm pretty sure 'it looks to me as though Smith was setting up a jump onto Maria' and 'his comment on Reg where it feels like he's doing the same thing' from me contradicts this point of his (both of which I've mentioned in some capacity).

Especially when combined with things like him already thinking and looking ahead as to how her scum flip impacts other players alignments

See my comments above.

how he's interacting with her

Vague. I also mentioned that I had the opposite opinion and explained why.

and even how he's discussing the possibility of being wrong on her

I didn't address this, but that's because I didn't care. Not really something I don't think can be faked, and it could just be because you're realizing that the Maria wagon may not go through and are giving yourself to back off.

Bad reason but I also town read his confusion re; what happened last night and him thinking it was Mayhem.

Not a reason I would use to townread anyone.

Happy now?

[Brian Skies]

Here's that thing where you're basically saying you didn't read or care to read why people are TRing me (you're now suggesting you WERE aware, but it's not waht you said, so *shrugs*)

No, that is me saying I don't understand why you're being townread at all, based on my own feelings of your play.

This is also just false on the surface.

My ACTUAL entrance was largely a bunch of discussion about hebi and an opposition to her wagon

My stuff explicitly on baku came later, and there wasn't much of it, and it's a bizarre thing to be focusing on at all as if this was either a main focus of my content (false), the thing I came in on (false), or that I drew zero conclusions (it's probably fair to say there was some hedgy stuff in there, but it was somehow zero conclusions or useless or busy work)

Like, if you're town, maybe actually reading my ISO instead of just relying on your vague recollections of what you thought I was doing would help?

Why does it matter which you did first? You still did it shortly after you came into the game. Sure you talked about the hebi wagon, but you're admitting that your baku observations were pretty hedgy (which is why I said they lacked conclusions, particularly because they were just sitting there collecting dust). I was hoping there would at least be some semblance of reads or opinions based on that, but those never came. And you still never addressed my comments on hebi, even when I asked you about it, and it did irk me that your read through those interactions abruptly ended before you got to the point where you could discuss that with me.

So yes, I did focus and am focusing on it because I asked you a question and expected a response from you, which has still yet to come.

Do you actually know scum to hammer stall? Do you think my reaction to bouncing off of drealz seconds before maria tried to hammer was non-genuine? Do you care about any of these things? Or are you just hemming and hawing and going "gee whiz smith's 'stalling' (NAI) thing might somehow be scum-indicative"

wrt the low amount of reads stuff, how do you expect townies with few reads to be behaving? ESPECIALLY townies that have had their strongest SR (mine on Maria) get thrown into doubt? If your concept here is "town!smith would be shitting out more reads for the sake of producing content" idk why you'd think that of me specifically or frankly of almost anyone

Frankly speaking, my impression of you has been either really lost/confused town or scum keeping their options open. So yes, if there is very little for me to judge you on and I have doubts on you, then I'm going to pressure you on it.

Hammer stalling is not something I find scum-indicative, but it is something I can find telling depending on the person who was about to get hammered. It's no secret I wanted Ceph lynched yesterday, so yes, I'm going to wonder what the motivations there are for you to stall a hammer there (as either alignment). Same for dreal, same for Nos. I don't have an issue with you pulling your vote off of dreal (never said I did and it wasn't a hammer vote anyway). I do have an issue with the way you interacted with the Nos wagon, AND explained why.

Also, no, I don't expect anyone to just be spitting out bullshit reads to have content. But if you're going to go through the effort of talking about Baku spew, then I do expect some sort of reads or conclusions to result out of it. Otherwise it just seems to me like you're pretending to be doing something when you really aren't.

So at that point in time I was SRing Maria, not SRing nos (you're correct in your note earlier d3 that it was null instead of town, but I don't see at all why the difference mattered in the context you were discussing?), and Maria was not SRing nos. What was there to discuss with her? I presented my nos thoughts, voted Maria, and like 2 minutes later she hammered. What in the world do you expect town!smith to have done differently, either right after the wall, or in the like minute after Maria's hammer and before thread locked? Immediately posted "lol nice scum hammer"? Crocodile tears about how horrible it was that we ML'd someone? I have literally no clue what you would have expected out of town!me at all wrt the nos wagon, especially right at the end, so I'm just at the whole thing rn

Let me ask you a question.

Deadline is looming.
Player Y is at L-1 and about to get hammered.
Player X is asked to hammer, but doesn't want to hammer the wagon because they think Player Y is town.
The immediate alternative is to wagon and lynch Player X.
You townread Player Y and scumread Player X.

What do you think will happen if you vote Player X and Player X is town? What do you think will happen if you vote Player X and Player X is scum? Do you expect Player X to want to get lynched as either alignment, especially over a player they have slotted as a weak townread? Do you think running up Player X is more likely to save Player Y, especially if you, yourself, say you are willing to hammer the wagon yourself?

TLDR: I have every right to push back on your shit case.

I don't have an issue with you addressing my case, but that's not what you were doing. You were complaining that I wasn't engaging with Reg even though I clearly was.

[Brian Skies]

Also @brian: thanks for haflway engaging w what reg said after my basically pulling teeth on the subject. It doesn't really seem like you've said anythig materially more substnative than "hey I disagree" but I'll at least do you the courtesy of looking closer when I have more time/energy for it

I don't really know how 'hey, here are some things I'm concerned about that Smith that directly go against your thoughts on the matter' is halfway engaging.

[Brian Skies]

Let me ask you a question.

Deadline is looming.
Player Y is at L-1 and about to get hammered.
Player X is asked to hammer, but doesn't want to hammer the wagon because they think Player Y is town.
The immediate alternative is to wagon and lynch Player X.
You townread Player Y and scumread Player X.

What do you think will happen if you vote Player X and Player X is town? What do you think will happen if you vote Player X and Player X is scum? Do you expect Player X to want to get lynched as either alignment, especially over a player they have slotted as a weak townread? Do you think running up Player X is more likely to save Player Y, especially if you, yourself, say you are willing to hammer the wagon yourself?

Also a follow-up question, I guess.

I know you said you thought Maria was probably avoiding the wagon because you just thought she didn't want the blood on her hands. She already knew Dreal was basically a VT. Nos hadn't claimed up until then, and people were asking her to just lynch him (and he wasn't really around anyway). So why do/did you think Maria-scum was willing to keep Nos-town around over Dreal at that point? How does that benefit her?

[Brian Skies]

What happens if player X is a VT who townreads player Y: player X would probably NOT hammer player Y, who she townread and who (as far as she knows) could well have been an important town PR - whether she accepts the wagon on her or whether she instead makes an active effort to push someone else as scum depends on the player, of course, but yeah the hammer is NOT what you expect from a VT there

I'm not really getting this. Maria only had Nos as a weak townread, not a 'OMG, THIS IS DEFINITELY TOWN GUYS I WOULD RATHER DIE THAN SEE THIS LYNCHED' like what Imperium did in relation to hebi. She doesn't

know

Nos is town, so why should she fall on the blade for Nos, regardless of her alignment?

[Brian Skies]

I was talking right at the end, when nos was hanging around at L-1, and Maria's objection existed but at the same time was soft enough that it probably would never have actually swung the wagon away from Nos.

So in a scum!Maria world, it's not a preference thing, it's much more of a "well this wagon's going through regardless, I can basically do waht I want" sort of thing. And scum soft objecting to wagons that will go through wtihout their help is kind of a common thing imo.

But it's not like your play really did anything to either 1) deter the wagon from going through (despite you saying you thought Nos could be town, you still said you'd hammer it) and 2) you were pushing the immediate alternative of lynching the potential hammerer (like, what do you think is going to happen?).

I'm still not understanding what you were expecting to happen regarding Nos the instant you voted Maria there.

Other than that, I'd say I'm fine with the rest of the explanation you gave in 2908.

[Brian Skies]

Point me at people you want to look at and I'll go do that.

Desp, Ceph, Imperium

[Brian Skies]

Ceph is town as shit

Because...?

[Brian Skies]

It's probably related to everyone else's relative towniness.

[Brian Skies]

I acknowledge that my reads are probably garbage. But I haven't been advertising them as anything else, so...

[Brian Skies]

if the scum can't vote at all, i think they should've split.

it also makes my role waaaaaaaaaaay good.

Kinda like a sensor role?

Assuming you're town here, then there's probably at least two scum in those that claimed to vote for Dream 2 on Day 1.

Let's say I'm wrong on Desp and he's scum. Who do you think is probably lying out of {hebi, LLD, Sakura, Dreal, Syry}?

[Brian Skies]

Dream 2 on Day 2, not Day 1.

That's what I meant.

Because the way I see it, we can blow up that entire pool in like one or two days since LLD claimed hider (who we're still not lynching today; same for hebi). There's probably a much better way to do it, but I'm thinking lynch Desp (mostly because he seems to be the person most people are scumreading anyway), and then send LLD to hide behind one of Sakura/Syr/Dreal (preference on not Sakura). Depending on who dies tonight, we can decide which of Syr/Dreal (maybe LLD) to lynch tomorrow. If no scum flip, Sakura gets NK'ed, and LLD is still around (with a potentially second cleared townie at the least), we can lynch her and/or hebi then. If we don't get at least two scum from that, then we lynch you.

[Brian Skies]

I'm a bit worried about publicizing LLD's targets

If LLD dies, it's either because she found us scum or she died with a townie (thus shrinking our lynchpool). It would also confirm hebi as town, shrinking the lynchpool even more.

[Brian Skies]

There are other things to be worried about, I guess. But let's keep it simple.

[Brian Skies]

I'm a bit worried about publicizing LLD's targets

If LLD dies, it's either because she found us scum or she died with a townie (thus shrinking our lynchpool). It would also confirm hebi as town, shrinking the lynchpool even more.

it's the latter that i'd like to avoid because i currently have no intentions of ever lynching her

I don't understand. Are you afraid hebi will get NK'ed?

The goal is to narrow down and lynch scum.

[Brian Skies]

I'd say it's reasonable with vests in play. Don't get why you're asking (I can venture a guess, but don't want to go down that rabbit hole again).

[Brian Skies]

Spoiler: Original Dreamcount

I forgot desp.

Syryana 2/2
Regfan 1/1
Cephrir 3/X*
MariaR 1/1
Brian Skies 3/2
Imperium
drealmerz7 2/2
Desperado 2/1
Sakura Hana 2/1
hebichan 2/1
Lady Lambdadelta 2/1
mhsmith 1/1

Total above for day: 3, 6, 2
Total above for moonrise: 7, 3

...Huh.

Spoiler: New Dreamcount

Syryana 2/2
Regfan 1/1
Cephrir 3/X*
MariaR 1/1
Brian Skies 3/2
Imperium
drealmerz7 2/2
Desperado 1/1
Sakura Hana 2/1
hebichan 1/1
Lady Lambdadelta 2/1
mhsmith 1/1

Total above for day: 5, 4, 2
Total above for moonrise: 7, 3

Result for day: 6,4,2
Result for moonrise: 8,3

I feel like this is a waste of time. Although now I'm heavily doubting you just made up your role.

[Brian Skies]

I didn't say that. I just said I don't think he's making it up. Please refer to 2852.

Either way, he still said he got his dreamcount at Moonrise or something. And that's what I'm still working through right now.

[Brian Skies]

I love a whole 'because wagons' argument as much as the next guy, but d'you mind showing some work if you're going to say something like that?

Sure, let's just chalk it up to Cabd and move on. Better than me feeling like I want to shoot myself rather than having to think about it.

[Brian Skies]

Sakura, what's your read on LLD?

[Brian Skies]

Sorry, that was a stupid question.

I kinda think the reasoning would be obvious, but yeah it's something I'm mulling over.

I changed my mind. I do want to talk to you about this and want to know what it is you're mulling over.

[Brian Skies]

More like unlikely to be the case.

[Brian Skies]

not when she was selfish with the results and took over a day to reveal what her actual role was

the entire thing fucking reeks and i have no clue why everyone is just glossing it over after she LIED ABOUT WHY SHE TARGETED HEBI

like, she didn't fully claim for the entire day and wasn't forthcoming with her results, drawing a full counterclaim from the masons

then when she finally did claim, she lied about it

and we're all just good with this???

No, and it's why I want to talk to Smith.

[Brian Skies]

anyone who townreads hebi needs to explain why she isn't dead already

Probably because LLD first indicated an inno on hebi yesterday and the mason lovers just died.

[Brian Skies]

Debatably we should ALSO be having the bp receiver claim since LLD (if town) can just visit there and if LLD lives, receiver is also conftown (if LLD town anyway). That, by the way, was why I was asking if it made sense for there to be a strongman here.

Disappointing that this was what you meant, but eh.

The reason why I called it a rabbit hole was because I thought Reg was an odd choice for LLD to call out like that in her post and that it could possibly have been her attempt at fishing out a potential vest, even though I still think it's possible that she just didn't know about the vest to begin with. Forgetting about the vest is not something I don't think town couldn't do, but if she's fakeclaiming here, then I think it's possible that she was planning on attacking Reg, shooting him, and then hiding behind the hider claim (OMG SCUM SHOT ME GUYS) or just hoping to get confirmation from Reg on whether he has a vest (shoot no one or someone else, but probably still just shoots Reg here). And then she can just claim ignorance of the vest and back out of the attack entirely. If scum had a strongman ability, then idk if that makes this play more important, since then they'd have an idea of where they can use the ability, although based on the kill choices and Reg still being around, I don't really think them having access to one is the case.

[Brian Skies]

VOTE: LLD

[Brian Skies]

That was because I was either going to lynch Ceph or blow up his lynchpool of potential liars. I no longer want to lynch Ceph and the lynchpool doesn't exist anymore.

[Brian Skies]

Also still not lynching you today.

[Brian Skies]

Sakura, why do you think Desp is scum?

[Brian Skies]

It first started with his read of both me and drealz on Day 1, where it were opposites besides neither of us having done anything

He should probably back it up, but do you have an issue with his explanation for his difference in reads? Also, didn't you question why Imperium wasn't scumreading you at some point on Day 1 for not really doing anything? Not sure why you think it's weird for one slot to do so and not another.

his reaction to my first vote on him on D1

Because...?

and that's when he started pushing this logic that hebi, me, lld and Nos were some sort of scum team that were voting together everywhere together

I don't really think you're all scum together, and I don't think scum all vote together like that anyway. But you were all pushing the same counterwagons to hebi, were you not? Do you just find him thinking that there's probably scum in this pool of players to be completely unreasonable?

Also not as strong, but he's been consistently wrong on his reads, baku, Varsoon, Nos and myself, I heard that while it's ok for town to be wrong, being consistently wrong it's usually scum?

I don't really think this is the case. The only examples off the top of my head are in smaller games like Newbies or Micros or Minis, but I think town are perfectly capable of just being wrong all the time.

Who else do you think is scum?

[Brian Skies]

Everything I signed up for is pretty much no longer present so you're getting even more apathy than you were before sry bout it

I'm only in this game because ffery invited me. If the people who actually signed up for this game to play aren't even playing, then why the fuck am I here?

[Brian Skies]

and then he just keeps to have stuck with that and making evidence to fit his theory rather than coming to a conclusion due to evidence, his reads seem static.

This one? I agree that some of his reads seem static, but I don't think they all do. I do think he's been adjusting them based on the wagons (see his Ceph read going up and down for example). What about his theory do you think is lacking support?

[Brian Skies]

I don't really think you're all scum together, and I don't think scum all vote together like that anyway. But you were all pushing the same counterwagons to hebi, were you not? Do you just find him thinking that there's probably scum in this pool of players to be completely unreasonable?

I saw people voting my scumreads so I followed, i had mentioned before who I was willing to lynch, but somehow he decided to completely overlook that.

This isn't really what I asked you. I just want to know if you think him suspecting the pool of {You, hebi, LLD, Nos} to be completely unreasonable based on the wagon dynamics he cited.

[Brian Skies]

I think we look at the game a bit differently in that I'm generally far less willing to compromise on weak town reads or players that I have mostly as null unless I really have to, always try to make sure I'm getting a scum read lynched unless I'm in a weird position like this where I'm not super confident in anyone being scum.

I usually find myself with a completely different view than most other players (I have no idea why this is). I also don't really compromise on weak town reads, just that I feel like I'm still in compromise mode since I haven't really felt like this playerlist does anything to push reads or wagons and am probably still in the whole deadline compromise mode that I was in EOD yesterday. Also, like I said before, Sakura was someone I kept forgetting was indicating to be a PR, and considering that's the only reason I had her as a townlean, she kept slipping back into my lynchpool.

I get where you're coming from with your Ceph scum read in that post but it's not really a read I share and there's a few stuff from his this day phase that I'm reading ~townish and not really interested in lynching there at all,

think you're moving more towards me with that read too

.

Yes.

Think Sakuras claim in Post 3025 makes her literally confirmed town, very much agree with Hebichans Post 3035 and Post 3036 in there's not going to be a scum role that allows them to distribute all powers available via the mechanic in the game, would make the entire mechanic super irrelevant and it's not a role she can fake claim since her knowing who gave the vest N1 or who will give out a certain item in future days confirms she actually has it. Not to mention it's a role she has very little reason to actually claim in this manner since she'd be restricting who receives the abilities doing so too. She was pretty obviously town before the claim but with it no one should ever be scum reading her or even contemplating her as scum here anymore.

I wouldn't say confirmed town or obvious town, but I do think it makes her very likely town, especially since it puts a target on her back and I don't see her claim being either false/or something she can ride out on. Also, like you said, it's something she can probably confirm if she does end up sticking around.

I'll go over my Mhsmith thoughts for you once more in more detail when I'm not at work but suffice it to see I think we're looking at him very differently here?

Mhsmith are players I'd literally bet the game on being town

It does seem that way. I also would not bet the game on Smith being town. Not even close. I'd love to hear your thoughts on what I've said about him and why you're so confident here.

I'm kind of on the opposite situation with you about Desp in that I didn't town read Sunlit, I didn't like Desp's replacement but I've misread him before too (quite recently actually) which is making getting a confident read on him pretty tricky.

Sunlit is a slot that I can understand being scumread, but I just don't think it's scummy. It mostly feels like something that's really easy to jump on and just looks bad in relation to the scum that we flipped. It reminds me of Staeg in this game.

probably pretty unlikely to lynch LLD at all today since I think if she's town there's potential for her to die visiting scum and giving us more information as well as preventing her mslynch and providing us with a clear if she doesn't die. In the world she's scum there's still scum outside her and on a reread I think the world where it's Hebi/LLD+1 is pretty unlikely, there's a few interactions between the two of them that are looking unaligned.

Normally, I would be pretty okay with letting LLD live another day. However, there is enough disagreement between my reads and everyone else's that I keep coming back to her as the best lynch. I still think the claim makes sense on the surface, but outside of that, her play mostly boils down to defending Hebi, relying on her claim, or tunneling Desp. I'm not fond of her post claim play, and I don't think she's really doing much to really gamesolve here.

I still find the flavor for her claim iffy (although don't really want to lynch someone based on flavor), and not willing to write her off as town for forgetting about the BP vest for the reasons I've stated here. I'd actually like your thoughts on that, particularly because it doesn't seem like Smith likes to talk to me about anything I direct towards him.

So that means I'm effectively only really voting inside the following pool today;

Syryana
MariaR
drealmerz7
Desperado

Right now, my not-lynching pool would be {Reg, Ceph, Sakura, Dreal, Imperium}. Ceph I think is probably telling the truth and he just massively misplayed his role. I think Sakura is likely town for her claim and still think Dreal was town EOD yesterday with the way he was reacting to his wagon and his claim (although he needs to knock it off with is empty promises of catching up and playing the game). I also think Tammy was town here.

I think Syry was probably town. While I disagreed with his Varsoon push, I do think that was probably a town push, and he did drop his push there after I engaged him on it. I don't really get any malicious intent out of him and am willing to trust Ceph on his read on Syry. There are also some other things, particularly in that I don't think he made any attempt to fake any of his reads (pretty sure he was faking them pretty hard in Gay Mafia III and his reads here don't look anything like his reads there). And I do think it's highly probable that he was trying to catch up here but was overwhelmed. I've already talked about Desp and Maria. I'm feeling less confident in them now, but still think I'm right on both of them.

Hebi cannot be scum unless LLD is.

I've already talked about LLD and Smith. My preference is on LLD, but I do think there's a good chance Smith can be scum too. Barring something major heppening to my reads, I don't see myself voting outside of those two today.

[Brian Skies]

I would have gotten everyone to claim their dream votes each day phase. There's really no other way to get a full dream count and cross check with your results.

[Brian Skies]

There are other ways to disguise your motivation for confirming dream votes before the night phase, particularly if you're a player that likes to delve into mechanics. I don't consider Ceph one of these players.

[Brian Skies]

I'd make a snarky comment about captain obvious

Are you referring to me? Because, like, Ceph literally asked me.

[Brian Skies]

I suppose that could have helped but it seems more likely the scum team would have at least one person who would see how out of character that was for me.

Eh.

Asking for president claims on day 2 I still don't agree with, as it let's scum know today is a bad day to lie about it.

Yeah, probably just a bad draw for you. Also, I think it's something we'd need to have established on the onset rather than just randomly doing it after Day 1.

[Brian Skies]

implies nos voted didn't count tho)

you're left with a drastically nerfed counting ability. Hard to really tie votes to slots in a meaningful way when two known town slots are ??? on the vote counter

There was one fewer vote on the Moonlight Phase count than there was on the Day Phase count. Since it's assumed a Day Phase vote would just carry over to the Moonlight Phase in the event someone votes in the Day Phase and not the Moonlight Phase, it can be assumed the person we lynched {Nos} did vote and have their vote counted. The only other scenario is if someone votes for a dream during the Day Phase that gets eliminated in the Moonlight Phase, but the only players that claimed to have voted for Dream 3 are Ceph and myself, and it matches with the results Ceph claimed (so it's unlikely for the missing vote to be a result of anything else other than Nos being lynched).

Unless you think town would just lie about it, a dead townie's claimed votes would be reliable as far as a vote counter goes.

[Brian Skies]

And Desp.

[Brian Skies]

oh you only wanted our votes for day two

i've only voted for a dream twice; dream 2 day 1 and dream 1 day 2. haven't voted during moonrise.

[Brian Skies]

The reason why I called it a rabbit hole was because I thought Reg was an odd choice for LLD to call out like that in her post and that it could possibly have been her attempt at fishing out a potential vest, even though I still think it's possible that she just didn't know about the vest to begin with. Forgetting about the vest is not something I don't think town couldn't do, but if she's fakeclaiming here, then I think it's possible that she was planning on attacking Reg, shooting him, and then hiding behind the hider claim (OMG SCUM SHOT ME GUYS) or just hoping to get confirmation from Reg on whether he has a vest (shoot no one or someone else, but probably still just shoots Reg here). And then she can just claim ignorance of the vest and back out of the attack entirely. If scum had a strongman ability, then idk if that makes this play more important, since then they'd have an idea of where they can use the ability, although based on the kill choices and Reg still being around, I don't really think them having access to one is the case.

^Indicates that I think it could've been a planned reaction?

[Brian Skies]

It could also just be me being incredibly paranoid.

[Brian Skies]

The issue I have is mostly the target you chose.

[Brian Skies]

I'm talking about Reg, not you.

[Brian Skies]

In terms of voting, reg's vote has some basis from the previous day, evidenced by his post linking to the posts where he sets that up on the previous day. I have a great fear Regfan may be scum setting that up, but for the moment that's paranoia. Something to mind for later, but not right now.

@LLD -

Can you run me through the "I'm going to mention I scum read Reg because I want to get it down before I get possibly shot" type thing if you're a hider? Since it wouldn't be possible to die via a direct shot from my understanding of the role. Did you crumb hiding behind anyone last night, if so who, where and why?

What part of "I wanted to be shot at" did you not understand? The whole goal was to look as vulnerable to a shot as possible and then dodge the shot. If there's no kill that night, well, guess who I lynch the next day?

I'm still not sold on you, but that was the plan before chaos reigned.

This is what I'm talking about.

[Brian Skies]

I forgot about that. Lol. Maybe Nos just didn't vote (or it didn't get counted because we lynched him). As it stands, though, I don't think there is anything to gain from sorting through your claim.

[Brian Skies]

I wouldn't say you're a weak mechanical player, just that it's not something you typically focus on.

[Brian Skies]

The way I'm looking at it here is that if she's mafia she's never endgaming here with a claim of hider, that means if she's mafia we're never going to lose to her at all and if she's mafia she's got partners alive a this point still. If she's town here on the other hand lynching her today would be pretty catastrophic given we're removing the potential for her to die hiding behind mafia giving us a guilty and preventing a mslynch and preventing us from getting more clears. Like if she's town here and she doesn't die tonight, her stating she hid behind X and is still alive means that if we lynch her tomorrow instead of today we're getting effectively an additional clear.

Probably not explaining where I am with this as clearly as I could be but the gist of it is that I don't really want to take the risk of lynching a claimed investigative on D3 when there' most certainly multiple mafia players still around regardless of LLD's alignment. As for her actual play I don't think I disagree with your assessment of it at all, I think she's sort of chiming in when the game talks about the three players you've listed and the lack of reads and elaborated thoughts on other players in the game is very much ???? as is her claiming to have attempted to have hidden behind Imperium. tldr; of where I'm at is I don't want her anywhere near endgame but think tabling her for 1-2 days and hoping she self-resolves if she's town or provides us with more information before actually lynching there is optimal play here.

You're basically saying that you think she's scummy but we can't lynch her because she claimed investigative, which is like the biggest pet peeve of mine and one of the reasons I wanted to blow my brains out in Shaman Mafia (where I knew TTH was scum, she claimed a really shitty and obnoxious investigative role, and I couldn't lynch her because people have this huge adversity to lynching claimed power roles). I don't think leaving scummy investigative roles just because is a play I take ever, especially if the alternatives that are being presented to me are players I think are probably town.

And it's not like you're saying 'this person really seems town to me,' which is something I would get, but it's not. And if she's scum, what does getting one or two more results actually net you? Just speculation on whether she lied about whether she faked an inno result while we probably hand scum free mislynches.

I actually read Syranas push on NMS? more genuine than his Varsoon one and thought that sort of the comments he made when doing it are something scum are really unlikely to fall back on but outside of those few pushes his EOD2 posts and play as well as his fall off this day phase hasn't really been warming and there's not enough there that I'd consider moving him on the Sakura/You/Smith or Cephrir/Imperium type piles.

I don't actually remember the NMS push and only commented on Varsoon because that's the one I remember (probably because that's the one I actually engaged him on). We also pretty much exploded EOD Day 2, so not really gonna fault him for falling off the face of the earth today.

[Brian Skies]

Smith, I want you to take everything that's been said about Ceph's claim into your backyard and shoot it.

[Brian Skies]

You're basically saying that you think she's scummy but we can't lynch her because she claimed investigative, which is like the biggest pet peeve of mine and one of the reasons I wanted to blow my brains out in Shaman Mafia (where I knew TTH was scum, she claimed a really shitty and obnoxious investigative role, and I couldn't lynch her because people have this huge adversity to lynching claimed power roles). I don't think leaving scummy investigative roles just because is a play I take ever, especially if the alternatives that are being presented to me are players I think are probably town.

And it's not like you're saying 'this person really seems town to me,' which is something I would get, but it's not. And if she's scum, what does getting one or two more results actually net you? Just speculation on whether she lied about whether she faked an inno result while we probably hand scum free mislynches.

Eh, that's not really it at all. I think there's a chance she's scum here, there's issue I have with her play but put her claim aside I wouldn't say I've got a stronger scum read on her than the 4 names I've listed, I probably wouldn't even say that the read on her is on the same level of the other 4. If I had a strong scum read on her here I'd get what you're saying and she'd be a fine lynch but I'd rate the odds of her flipping scum probably around ~40%? right now, maybe marginally higher and on that ~60% instance where she's town mslynching her here really really hurts and isn't a risk I'd take.

I'm going to be honest with you right now. The only two scumreads I have are LLD and Smith. If I can't get either of these, and absolutely have to go into the lynchpool you're trying to present me, the only person I'd accept in her place is Desp. And if he flipped town, I would absolutely tunnel and demand her lynch tomorrow in return.

Your whole "I can't decide between Maria/Desp/Syry/Dreal' is pretty much hogwash to me. And if you can't accept an LLD lynch because you're too scared of making a big play (and one that's probably on scum), then at least go for the one that will actually make a dent in people's reads lists and force people to stop sitting on the Desp wagon that's been around since Day 1.

[Brian Skies]

Smith, I want you to take everything that's been said about Ceph's claim into your backyard and shoot it.

Sorry, but I don't have a gun this game

Then beat it to death with a bat or something. Just stop talking about it.

[Brian Skies]

Wrt 1208 my sense was that moment in particular was NOT especially likely to swing the lynch (I think it was like 6/3 Baku then?)
Yeah

VOTE: Baku

I hate all these wagons but let's pray I'm wrong

Made it 6/3, with 8 to lynch, and it's just kind of HARD I think to as scum push hard to save a buddy in that spot? Like, a Baku flip was fairly likely to come day 2 given town!desperado lynch, and then hebi gets grilled on it and... I guess I don't think she feels confident enough to carry a day end that looks awful and that looks even worse if Baku gets lynched and flips scum there, which even wth hebis push would have just generally seemed likelier?

Like in a town!desperado world I'd more naturally suspect Maria who flipped back to desperado right after hebi flipped (and then went right back after hip pushed Baku back to six), and even there im more "well it's possible" than "LOCK WOLF SAVING BUDDY AND GIVING UP WHEN IT WASNT GONNA BE A SAVE"

The opinion change bit in regfan's 959 might be a decent point though? I'll look into that in more detail when I have time I guess.

I said stuff about hebi here and would appreciate your thoughts on it since you seem to be looking in that direction anyway.

This was one I brought up on Day 2. Although it's really old and I'm not sure how much I care about it since we're not lynching hebi today regardless.

Debatably we should ALSO be having the bp receiver claim since LLD (if town) can just visit there and if LLD lives, receiver is also conftown (if LLD town anyway). That, by the way, was why I was asking if it made sense for there to be a strongman here.

Disappointing that this was what you meant, but eh.

The reason why I called it a rabbit hole was because I thought Reg was an odd choice for LLD to call out like that in her post and that it could possibly have been her attempt at fishing out a potential vest, even though I still think it's possible that she just didn't know about the vest to begin with. Forgetting about the vest is not something I don't think town couldn't do, but if she's fakeclaiming here, then I think it's possible that she was planning on attacking Reg, shooting him, and then hiding behind the hider claim (OMG SCUM SHOT ME GUYS) or just hoping to get confirmation from Reg on whether he has a vest (shoot no one or someone else, but probably still just shoots Reg here). And then she can just claim ignorance of the vest and back out of the attack entirely. If scum had a strongman ability, then idk if that makes this play more important, since then they'd have an idea of where they can use the ability, although based on the kill choices and Reg still being around, I don't really think them having access to one is the case.

I was expecting a response to this, although I probably should've put it in the form of a question (so my bad).

If there was anything else I've asked you that you didn't respond to, I don't remember.

[Brian Skies]

If desp flips town I will completely vote LLD with you. Then reg.

Why Reg?

[Brian Skies]

I know what the issue is. I don't care about the issue.

[Brian Skies]

No, I'm not willing to let scum get 1+ free days of riding a fakeclaim because I subscribe to the school of 'roles are earned, not claimed.'

[Brian Skies]

Ok so tell me, what was the difference between drealz claim and LLD's claim. If they need to be earned not claimed, I recall you said before that drealz claim felt town or something, does scum never claim VT on your games or is it something else.

VT isn't a power role, for one. I'm also pretty sure Dreal was crumbing it since his first post. I said more on it here. I'm also not scumreading his play.

LLD didn't even begin to indicate being a PR until Day 2. I do find the flavor iffy, and I scumread her play outside the claim.

Claims are important. I do think the way people claim and the way they handle it can be telling. But 'play' trumps everything. And to me, LLD's play is scummy enough that I think it's at the very least worth a deeper look than 'we should just let her live for another day or so.'

[Brian Skies]

Because I was scumreading him at the time.

[Brian Skies]

Also:

He also

dropped

claimed

the flavor and I find the flavor believably town.

Uh, what?

Does that make more sense?

[Brian Skies]

Like are you seriously suggesting someone's alignment can be determined by the flavor?

No, of course not. But in a game where people have avoided doing so and avoided giving any hints as to what the flavor could be, I do think immediately claiming it is a good sign. Also, if a flavor is sketchy, then I do think that's something that should be accounted for (although like I said before, not a reason I actually want to lynch anyone for).

[Brian Skies]

I no longer want to lynch Dreal.

Also, Color Wheel hasn't moved.

@Brian: Why were you no longer okay with lynching drealmerz here?

I didn't like the way the wagon built up and thought the claim was town.

I actually cannot believe that Drealmerz genuinely believes NMS can be scum.

I would lynch Drealmerz solely based on this, for the record. Given the dude was present for the entire NMS/Me interaction, there is NO FUCKING WAY IN HELL he genuinely is espousing a theory world in which NMS is anything but town. Fucking..... I don't care about my prior reservations. That shit is unacceptable for a townmindset.

I thought this was a pretty lame reason to flip onto Dreal, especially after she was so confident about Dreal being town earlier. And it gave me really bad vibes about the entire thing.

Spoiler: LLD Quotes

God, I just... Dreal feels town to me wrt the Baku lynch.

If you think they're both scum, then vote LLD. I don't know why that's so hard for you.

Honestly, can we do Desperado lynch today instead? I feel way more confident in that, and this whole interactions feels fucking weird for Drealmer scum, you know?

dreal is town here. dreal can play better than he did vs lld if he wants. he really doesn't care which means he probably town.
NoticeMeSenpai is heading more towards scum. Their low-key OMGUS vote on me combined with no reasoning other than a reason which they then said they were also doing in the next sentence shows that they are completetely BSing it.
mastin/varsoon makes sense with the defence from them.
Desp is still just lynchbait.
-baku

not again!!!

silly drealmer! get your head out of your ass and into the game!

it's here! really! but where to begin?

well on who you think is most likely scum, how about that?

hmmmmm, probably LDD, maria not sitting too well either

LDD?!?! REALLY!? WHY?!

ehh, can't really articulate it, that slot just gives me bad feels more than others is all, like each of their posts is carefully done as to not say too much but still seem like they're contributing and gamesolving

it also seems like they got the wagon they wanted going going and are set and done for the Day

This is probably the fakest psot I have seen in this game so far

These two posts, are a big contributor to it.

This is what I said about the Dreal wagon (which if you notice, I wasn't on).

[Brian Skies]

Spoiler: Dreal v Brian Quotes

lynch hebi today

lynch LLD tomorrow

resume scumhunting based on the unfoldings of that

I no longer think hebi is scum. LLD maybe, but you want hebi first for some reason. LLD is claiming to know hebi is town, so logic dictates that you'd have to lynch LLD first if you think one or both are scum.

lynch hebi today

lynch LLD tomorrow

resume scumhunting based on the unfoldings of that

lmfao what

I have a really weird brain and I see avenues and angles to gamesolving that are really hard for me to describe/explain

if LLD somehow happens to be town it is going to be nearly impossible to rewagon hebi, in my view

Well, obviously. Unless you just think LLD is lying town. In which case, what makes you think that would stop someone from Reg from still trying to push that wagon?

I don't think LLD is lying town, but then that didn't even cross my mind until you said it

I think she's either using hebi or in cohorts with hebi - if I'm wrong about that, well, no surprise really, I'm not too good at townplay in the early game and even worse when it's with a good portion of players I have little to no familiarity with

interesting "from reg" in there...

I meant 'like Reg'.

Either way, there's no world where lynching hebi before LLD makes sense right now.

I think she's either using hebi or in cohorts with hebi

So you think that either:
A) LLD is scum and hebi is town or
B) LLD and hebi are both scum

???

In both scenarios, LLD is scum to you. Not really sure why you

need

to have hebi first here.

Either way, there's no world where lynching hebi before LLD makes sense right now.

just the world inside my brain ( :

OK, but Hebi and I are both town, and you're not lynching either of us today, so what are your other reads, Drealmerz?

that's what scum would say, you see my issue? combined with your shittastic "claim", I just want you both dead

so what are your other reads, Drealmerz?

varsoon is very possibly scum, sakura has been pinging me pretty good, and maria is freaking me the fuck out playing an uber-town game that I've only seen hints of in late games when she's town or when she's scum, but never that good as scum

I've got a few TRs but I don't like to share those

I think she's either using hebi or in cohorts with hebi

So you think that either:
A) LLD is scum and hebi is town or
B) LLD and hebi are both scum

???

In both scenarios, LLD is scum to you. Not really sure why you

need

to have hebi first here.

beacuse I could be wrong about LLD and if I am, hebi is going to be a hard lynch to secure - I'll repeat that again if I need to...

I think she's either using hebi or in cohorts with hebi

So you think that either:
A) LLD is scum and hebi is town or
B) LLD and hebi are both scum

???

In both scenarios, LLD is scum to you. Not really sure why you

need

to have hebi first here.

beacuse I could be wrong about LLD and if I am, hebi is going to be a hard lynch to secure - I'll repeat that again if I need to...

If you could be wrong about LLD, then A) how is hebi scum here and B) why are you trying to secure hebi's lynch in any scenario?

You really need to unpack this for me because I'm having a hard time believing you're doing anything other than making sure you rope hebi so you don't have to use a bullet on her.

I'll try but, I think you're just missing the simplicity of "I don't know and this is how I am reading the gamestate atm"

I have a really weird brain and I see avenues and angles to gamesolving that are really hard for me to describe/explain

A) how is hebi scum here and B) why are you trying to secure hebi's lynch in any scenario?

it'd be that they're the one actually toying with LLD, at this point it's so jumbled for me between the two I can't see straight, in order to see straight and make sure I get flips on them both

all I can do is play how I can best see avenues for figuring out the game, and currently this is it

Well, I'm telling you that hebi isn't getting lynched before LLD today. So if you want to lynch both, then your only option is to lynch LLD.

hebi was at like L-4 with imperium at L-1 (I think?) and LLD comes in and pushes the "noooooo hebi today" ruckus - it just STINKS to me

either town-LLD is playing right into scum-hebi's hands, vice versa, they're in cohorts, or I'm totally off - yep, I'm that good! it's definitely one of those 4 options! hahhha

Well, I'm telling you that hebi isn't getting lynched before LLD today. So if you want to lynch both, then your only option is to lynch LLD.

so it appears (and I say that as reluctant agreement given the apparent status of everything, not facetiousness)

the only thing the claim has done for me has been to make me go "oh okay so maybe they have some relation in their roles and maybe that is why I've felt something funny between them since the beginning of the game" but then logic comes in and says "if that is the case then they shouldn't be behaving the way they have to draw attention to their relation and so it's less likely to be that because why would townies do that?"

If you think they're both scum, then vote LLD. I don't know why that's so hard for you.

The big issue I had with Dreal was that I couldn't understand why he wanted to leapfrog LLD's soft and lynch hebi and thought that he could have either been a partner with LLD or that he was just scum trying to line up mislynches.

also can't believe you think there are going to be 2 investigatives that were able to get N1 results and the game doesn't have a fucking godfather

I also think the godfather thing is okay from dreal and don't know why he didn't just say that when I asked him about his hebi/LLD thing earlier.

And then he got pressured and said this and I was like, 'oh okay, that kinda sorta makes sense now.' Although, in my mind, I was substituting 'godfather' with 'counter,' because that's what made sense to me.

[Brian Skies]

This is what I said about the Dreal wagon (which if you notice, I wasn't on).

Oh woops, seems like I made a mistake when I went through your ISO. I could've sworn you were voting him at the time, my bad sorry.

It's fine. I'm pretty sure I was voting him before then, but I didn't join the second wagon.

[Brian Skies]

So let me get this straight, outside of drealz play you only scumread him because he wanted to leapfrog LLD and lynch hebi, but after he mentioned the godfather possibility it all made sense and cancelled that?
OR
Did the claim have anything to do with your change of read? You did say something like that, I disagree with the flavor thing being useful whatsoever but eh, probably a difference in way of thinking.
OR
Both?

Some combination of no longer feeling as strongly about the Drealz/LLD thing as I did before, not liking LLD's jump onto Dreal, and thinking the claim was probably town.

[Brian Skies]

but scum can't receive dreams

Why do you think this?

[Brian Skies]

@brian: how confident are you (a %age would be nice) in your LLD read that you'd be willing to forgo potential clears to lynch her today?

Enough that she's my preferred lynch. %'s are dumb and I don't use those.

[Brian Skies]

but scum can't receive dreams

Why do you think this?

it makes more sense that dreamers receive dreams, I don't think scum are classified as dreamers
it makes more sense for balance that scum can't receive the boons
it looks like we have a lot of weakish town roles and a lot of VTs who are dream receptive and scum had a universal block, becomes wayy too much power potential for scum I think?

12. Dreams may also grant power roles to players. Unless specified, these may be held onto or used the same night. Dream recipients are chosen randomly unless an ability states otherwise.

Even if scum are dream receptive, they would be vastly outnumbered by town and at an inherent disadvantage as far as receiving dreams would go. It makes sense to me that even if they were dream receptive, they would need some abilities to counterbalance this inherent disadvantage. Also, the rules on the mechanics are incredibly vague as far as which alignment can or cannot receive dreams, so to me, we can't just assume that scum can or cannot be the recipients of dreams.

[Brian Skies]

Assuming you're town, you should consider whether, every time you're this confident in a read on a claimed investigative, you would have a net positive by lynching scum early, or a net negative by denying a town PR more investigations (and if genuine potentially drawing the NK). It's also worth considering that in this relatively large game with roles being given out we may well have other options for sorting LLD.

I wouldn't be voting her if I didn't genuinely think she was scum. I understand what optimal play is, and am the type to go for what I consider optimal play if I think the person in question is town or am just really unsure. However, I'm also the type to lynch players I think are scum regardless of what they've claimed.

You think that it's still early and that it's

only

Day 3. To me, it's

already

Day 3 and we're down two mislynches (Nos; the mason lovers).

I have no interest in being taken for a ride by the scumteam just because people are too scared to lynch a claimed investigative role. I don't think that's good play and never will. If you don't like the lynch choice, then you can either A) convince me that she's town, B) talk to me about my second preferred lynch (Smith), or C) convince me that another lynch will flip scum.

[Brian Skies]

Also acceptable.

[Brian Skies]

Are you sure you're not just (fake-)tunnelling here to avoid having to deal with the other wagons? Even if you think LLD is 100% the right lynch, I don't think it's happening.

What wagon would I be avoiding? Other than Smith, who is being voted by the person you're voting (and for what seems to be a joke), I think everyone else is town (or Hebi, who isn't getting lynched today).

[Brian Skies]

If you guys think Desp is scum, I will vote him, but only to see what he flips and get {Sakura, hebi, LLD} to stop voteparking.

[Brian Skies]

VOTE: Desp

[Brian Skies]

If we're lynching Desp here and he flips town I want LLD to visit inside the [MariaR, TWIE, Dreamlz] pool (Think if we're missing here complete confirmation that we're still somewhat on the right route and there's scum inside there is needed, plus if she lives and clears someone in this pool that's a huge gain).

You should narrow it down to one name so we know who to lynch if she dies.

[Brian Skies]

If we're lynching Desp here and he flips town I want LLD to visit inside the [MariaR, TWIE, Dreamlz] pool (Think if we're missing here complete confirmation that we're still somewhat on the right route and there's scum inside there is needed, plus if she lives and clears someone in this pool that's a huge gain).

You should narrow it down to one name so we know who to lynch if she dies.

egh, issues with this were discussed already, best to not telegraph where she's going

sakura - that was a me-specific thing - scum likes to latch onto me and not let go if I do certain things on D1

And then if she dies, we'd have wasted it. Stop being bad.

[Brian Skies]

Like, if Desp flips scum, then idc if we telegraph it or not since Reg seems to be targeting people he thinks are probably town.

But if you expect her to potentially hit and die on scum, then you want to know who to lynch IF THAT HAPPENS.

[Brian Skies]

If we're lynching Desp here and he flips town I want LLD to visit inside the [MariaR, TWIE, Dreamlz] pool (Think if we're missing here complete confirmation that we're still somewhat on the right route and there's scum inside there is needed, plus if she lives and clears someone in this pool that's a huge gain).

You should narrow it down to one name so we know who to lynch if she dies.

Huge problem with that is if the target is scum and mafia have a roleblocker they have a way of creating a surefire false clearance.

So?

Why are you going for a suboptimal play when there's no reason to presume the existence of a roleblocker?

[Brian Skies]

Just pick one name for the Desp-town pile.

[Brian Skies]

Because if she doesn't I'll votepark her tomorrow.

Well if she survives and Desp flips town, I might do it anyway.

[Brian Skies]

By the logic of teh 'rolestopper,' we aren't getting clears either. SO might as well.

[Brian Skies]

LLD, if Desp flips town, hide behind Dreal.

He claimed VT anyway, so if you die with him, no huge loss.

[Brian Skies]

Could be a 'you choose another person' type thing like the vest was.

[Brian Skies]

I also voted 2.

[Brian Skies]

Also, my day 2 hider claim was so tech, lol.

I thought your day 2 play was okay. I thought your day 3 hider play was atrocious. But you were able to capitalize on the random 'what if someone isn't dream receptive' speculation later on. I thought that was very well-played and worthy of a win.

Congratulations on your victory.

[Brian Skies]

Maybe it was your Day 4 hider play I thought was atrocious. Either way, congrats to the scumteam.

[Brian Skies]

I don't know what happened on that night. But since you didn't know who had the watcher, I don't think you had a choice but to claim a different target.

[Brian Skies]

I don't think this game was that scumsided and it's why you shouldn't try to outguess the mod.

[Brian Skies]

as i have more trouble in with that dream choices were not obvious at all in what they would do

^My only complaint.

[Brian Skies]

I think the difference is that I'm not really thinking about how a Normal Closed Setup should look like, because this isn't one.

The main mechanic is the dreaming mechanic, which is largely protown. Just based on probability, it's very unlikely for scum to get their hands on one since they're vastly outnumbered by town. Add in a role that takes the RNG completely out of the equation, and you end up with a setup that can easily swing heavily in the town's favor depending on how good the person's reads are. In order for scum to tilt the game back in their favor, they would either need to play well or the person who received the role to play poorly (or some combination in between). In exchange, Mafia were only given a single 1-Shot Global Roleblock.

To me, this game feels more mountainous rather than anything, and that's how I was treating it. And town mostly ended up losing because of relatively poor play and getting a bad draw on dreams.

My only complaint is that the game advertised that things would be spelled out as they were happening, and I felt that they were rather vague instead.

The mods didn't include a hider fakeclaim in the setup. Scum added that in and people were fooled by it. That's not the mods' fault. Nor is it their fault that people were assuming roles were non-dream-receptive or that scum couldn't receive dreams, speculation scum were able to take advantage of.

This game was also advertised as 'Non-Beginner-Friendly,' and if you wanted your hand held, you could have signed up elsewhere.

[Brian Skies]

to say nothing of the tone of it which is a whole other issue

And your post, which is clearly taking shots at the mods, has perfectly acceptable tone?

I agree that the lack of reward in relation to the challenge was a problem. The dreams were vague and difficult to decipher, but the mods also thought the dreams would be obvious to figure out, and that probably played into their setup's design.

[Brian Skies]

sorry, that's not on the players, and that's not "I guess you just want your hand held".

I'm going to be quite frank with you. I told you guys LLD's play was probably scum and that her flavor didn't make any sense, and instead of listening to me and realizing that she hadn't crumbed her day 1 role (which is a huge red flag for any hider role), you all continuously ignored the scumminess of her claim and let her evade a lynch for

days

. Including past 'the day before lylo' which is the endpoint for most scummy claims and other roles that have outlived their welcome.

I think the biggest issue was that you were all 'hoping' there'd be some role to save you all or hold your hand, and you blaming this on the mod just sounds like an excuse for town failing to make the right play.

[Brian Skies]

If there is one reason I can point to as to why town are going to lose this game, I would say it's because most of the town have been in this mindset that they have to play not to lose for several rounds now. And I don't think that's how Mafia should be played at all.

^I stand by this. And after losing Shaman Mafia because the town wouldn't listen to me on TTH (who had a scummy investigative claim) and Gay Mafia III (where I literally had to steal a gun from one scum to shoot a different scum that was clearly a scum doctor), I think town losing this game to LLD's claim will be better for this site's meta. Even if it only serves as a wake-up call to the players that played in this game.

[Brian Skies]

I agree with you that town didn't get much help.

I just think that if the dreams were more explicit in what they did, scum would've been in a really bad spot. All they got was a 1-Shot Global Roleblock. On the flipside, consider making all the dreams stronger in town's favor. Scum were already very unlikely to get anything from them just based on RNG. Sakura's role made it worse by removing RNG altogether and requiring them to either play well or get on her good side (which would be like finding a needle in a haystack). Reg got lucky this game because not only did he hardbus his buddy for towncred on Day 1, he somehow returned the vest to her as well (which is a very unlikely thing to happen). And it's not like scum ever got anything out of it since they refused to keep the vest for themselves.

On the flipside, had Sakura's choices not gotten wrecked immediately every night, some of these abilities could've turned the tide on scum (aside from Reg, I'm pretty sure she only picked town). Imagine if there were full Cop/Watcher/other roles being given out and scum didn't have anything to combat them with.

I feel like town just had really really bad luck.

The Lover thing was also probably unnecessary, but eh.

I also think you're being too hard on the mods and failing to see how they might have thought this was fair or balanced, all things considered.

[Brian Skies]

Like, was this game perfectly even, no. And I'm not arguing that. I just don't think the setup was as bad as people are making it out to be because we pretty much got the worst case scenario as far as how things played out.

[Brian Skies]

When scum get a free global roleblock (which kind of BLATANTLY suggests that town power is something other than essentially zero), that's on design.

Also, from what I recall, the ACTUAL town power that was distributed pregame wasn't even affected by the roleblock (albeit not useful, although it probably would've worked out better if this town cared more about coordinating dream votes).

As far as scum not needing to scumhunt PR's, I don't really agree, because you have a mechanic that can essentially hand out more power back to the players and essentially reward good play.

[Brian Skies]

So basically im currently at.
I need to figure out whether hebichan is actually cleared or not, smith's obviously town regardless but...

Desperado

(5):

NoticeMeSenpai

,

Varsoon

,

hebichan

,

Sakura Hana

,

Nosferatu

hebichan

(1):

Brian Skies

Varsoon

(1): Syryana
Cephrir (1): MariaR

Not Voting (7): Imperium, drealmerz7,

Desperado

, Lady Lambdadelta, hiplop, Regfan, Cephrir

This is something i have a hard time understanding.
If hebichan is town, then that means the entire wagon on Desp at this point was town and scum did nothing.
Which is what i meant by saying that i may need to 1v2 LLD and hebi or at least 1v1 one of them.

FWIW, I thought this was hilarious.

[Brian Skies]

I just think that if the dreams were more explicit in what they did, scum would've been in a really bad spot.

Uhh... how?

Basically zero dreams had the power to carry; the closest by far was the “dead person comes back” but and even that is mediocre and plenty of dead people just shit post anyway. Vig and bus driver a bit dangerous for scum too, except scum can get one or the other anyway.

Dreams like one shot rolecop, temporary hood, bodyguard (the traditional trash town power) etc. ... scum dont really fear any of those. Maybe LLD worries about the rolecop given her claim but 3/4 were goons and vanilla is vanilla.

Like...

1-shot watch
1-shot rolecop
1-shot vig and 1-shot bus driver
Neighborhood
1-shot governor
1-shot dead actions identifier
1-shot Mass motivator
1-shot bodyguard
1-shot BP
1-shot hider
restless spirit

You basically rand one of these every night, and town STILL has no real power to carry. Governor, dead actions identifier, etc. all of those are basically useless.

In, say, a day 3 publicly announced dream vote of governor vs all loved vs yolo random gladiator, there’s no real accountability for who votes where because scum don’t fear any of those. Town probably doesn’t vote the gladiate but so what? Governor is useless anyway, and good fucking luck if scum picks up that PR (which is blatantly possible too, whether Sakura role lives or not).

You have a 1-Shot Watcher, a 1-Shot Vig, a 1-Shot Governor, and a 1-Shot Hider, and you don't think any of these can help turn the game around? Not to mention you don't even have to worry about someone crumbing it on Day 1 and immediately dying to the scumteam like many players on this site?

I also don't understand why any of these roles have to 'carry' the game? Why can't any of them just be good enough to help the town solve the game and win?

[Brian Skies]

Regfan and LLD both played really well and I don't recall seeing a lot of traction heading in the direction of TWIE either.

That's because everyone insisted every day we had to focus on LLD and drealmz and no one let me chase other people.

Your play made perfect sense to me. But I don't think you following LLD around and helping her push her wagons was the greatest idea.

[Brian Skies]

When scum get a free global roleblock (which kind of BLATANTLY suggests that town power is something other than essentially zero), that's on design.

Also, from what I recall, the ACTUAL town power that was distributed pregame wasn't even affected by the roleblock (albeit not useful, although it probably would've worked out better if this town cared more about coordinating dream votes).

As far as scum not needing to scumhunt PR's, I don't really agree, because you have a mechanic that can essentially hand out more power back to the players and essentially reward good play.

That would be true if the one shots were useful instead of mainly junk. Or if scum didn’t have equivalent odds of getting powers once Sakura died.

I mean shit, man, Sakura dies and scum rands governor and saves scum is an obviously possible outcome (and just TRY to imagine if that happens in LYLO or [preuming mods ban that in MYLO/lylo] brings the game to LYLO/MYLO). Like, we got FAR from the worst rand of it all and it was still blatantly scumsided.

Like, scum governor. Scum vig. Scum bus driver. All realistic outcomes, basically by design.

Totally. But once again, just based on probability, scum start off with what, approximately a 4/17 chance to get the first dream? That's less than 25%. And then, on top of that, they're at the mercy of the reads of Sakura's role.

[Brian Skies]

but towns are supposed to “solve” for those dreams even on nights when all dreams are useless?

I 100% think the dreams should've been more explicit (and they were advertised to be spelled out for us to begin with), which you're ignoring for whatever reason because...?

[Brian Skies]

Unless Sakura targets town that gets yolo loverizer or gladiated or something because dreams weren’t understood.

And 25% ish for scum picking up the ONLY remotely useful powers 8n the game is ridiculous.

To say nothing of how the obscured flips enabled useless theorizarion like “scum might be non receptive”, or, for that matter, how it blatantly incentivize role claims since flips would tell town nothing (try and guess my role from my title for instance - it apparently wasn’t even obvious I was dream receptive )

All of this is a literal non-factor to what I'm saying, since my opinions on the setup are based on the idea that town should've had a clearer idea of what each dream did (which was advertised and what I've said in each of my posts).

[Brian Skies]

But even if dreams were fully public... who cares? The dream powers mainly sucked anyway

I think this is just your opinion, and you're entitled to it.

You think town on this site need a ton of power to have a fighting chance, which is a perfectly acceptable position to hold.

I disagree, but it's not like I'm going to sit here and tell the mods to make games harder for town when I roll town like 90+% of the time.