Monogatari Series Mafia (Game over, with monkey magic)

[Kagami]

Scum innocent child is also the same as a Loud N0 Cop who investigates a GF.

The difference in all these that makes one ok despite the equivalent function is that it's allowable for things that are understood to be investigations to result in a moderator lie.

[GuyInFreezer]

Scum innocent child is also the same as a Loud N0 Cop who investigates a GF.

The difference in all these that makes one ok despite the equivalent function is that it's allowable for things that are understood to be investigations to result in a moderator lie.

That is not bastard but somewhat unorthodox and extremely unlucky as hell. Also the fact that the cop result won't be worded as "mod-confirmed town"

[GuyInFreezer]

Now if that announcement was worded as "mod confirmed town", now THAT's bastard.

[Kagami]

You can even think about how it would play out and it becomes obvious that my alteration of the bastardry question nicely handles the current intuition.

If there's a Scum IC, and the mod says "XXX is Town," town will lose and be furious post-game.

If there's a Scum Compulsive Loud N0 Self-Copping Godfather, and the mod says "XXX has been cop-investigated and the result is 'Town'," the town will be much more critical of the announcement.

[GuyInFreezer]

Town can always ask the mod if the announcement is mod-confirmed. If that was a true innocent child the mod will have no problem answering "yes".

[Kagami]

GiF, is there any instance of a reasonably anticipate-able lie that is not related to an investigation result?

Are there any deceptions in an investigation result that would be a non-reasonably anticipated lie?

[GuyInFreezer]

Hidden miller who received the VT role PM is one of the fun non-reasonably anticipated lie.

There are no role interaction involved, VTs are expected to return innocent result to cop without any role interaction and yet because the VT was actually a miller with no one knowing the fact that there was any hidden millers that would be non-reasonably anticipated lie, thus bastard.

There are not much examples for reasonably anticipatable lies that are not related to investigation result other than stuff like mafia miller. No matter how much you think the chance of those showing up they technically does not violate how they work. It's a slap to the face, yes, but it's one of those "technically not bastard" roles that I would like to call "unorthodox".

[Kagami]

If the answer to both is no, or the exceptions are few and exotic, it suggests that the current clause is identical to the much more concrete suggestion I've presented.

I still think that GFs of all forms should not exist in a non-bastard game, but at least with the change it would be more clear to the players what's possible.

p-edit: hidden miller is less bad than framer, which is explicitly whitelisted

[GuyInFreezer]

It is explicitly whitelisted because it was commonly used. Otherwise that's the very concept of the non-reasonably anticipated lie.

[Kagami]

(Framer is also a role that should not exist, and thankfully is extraordinarily rare).

[GuyInFreezer]

Or if you want the different example, different sanity cop without any indication of it whatsoever.

[Kagami]

Hidden Miller has two components though, both the lie to the cop and the lie to the player. The lie to the player is not acceptable by the proposed suggesiton, so it doesn't break the equivalence.

p-edit: that too.

[GuyInFreezer]

non-reasonable lie comes because of the lie to the player that no one knew about so I don't really know what you're trying to ask then.

[Kagami]

Is it possible your game has any of the following: cults, mid-game alignment changes, secret win conditions, un-divulged non-randomness in player role/alignment generation, direct moderator influence during the game, or any other lies that are not the result of a player's role interacting with an investigation result?

[Yes/No]

^How about this?

[Kagami]

If it's unclear what I'm trying to do here, it's that nailing down the bastardry questions would do a lot to make it clear to players what is and is not possible.

[GuyInFreezer]

I know what you're trying to do there obviously.

Here's a fun thing that I just realized though. Did you realize that the current question doesn't block jesters?

"cults, mid-game alignment changes, moderator lies that cannot be reasonably anticipated (for example, Godfather, Tailor, Miller, Ninja, and mechanics like that are generally fine. Telling someone they are a reflexive doctor when they're actually a PGO is not), secret win conditions, un-divulged non-randomness in player role/alignment generation, direct moderator influence during the game?"

[Kagami]

Closed games will still be unbalance-able until mods start explicitly stating that they will not include roles intended to deceive investigators, but it would be a start toward a glorious future.

p-edit: Jesters aren't really bastard, just stupid.

[GuyInFreezer]

I wouldn't just rule it out as investigative results only, because what you posted allows mod giving Doctor Role PM to PGOs.

[Kagami]

How is that not a lie?

[GuyInFreezer]

Jesters aren't really bastard, just stupid.

So you won't mind seeing jesters in non-bastard game?

[GuyInFreezer]

How is that not a lie?

Oh nvm I read it wrong.

That looks passable.

[Kagami]

Jesters aren't really bastard, just stupid.

So you won't mind seeing jesters in non-bastard game?

As long as they don't end the game, who cares? It's a bad design decision, but bad design has never been considered bastard.

[Kagami]

Like, it's not bastard to have a scum N1 infinite vig, it's just stupid.

[GuyInFreezer]

Framer is also a role that should not exist, and thankfully is extraordinarily rare

Stuff like this always gives me an idea...

/runs

[Kagami]

If your goal is to make questions that give your /ins information about whether they'll enjoy the game, I would include:

12. Are there scum-controlled roles that are intended to cause investigation results to be deceptive?