Monogatari Series Mafia (Game over, with monkey magic)

[FakeGod]

if I can't get a proper shame and name from a game like this, then where would I get my fix

[Kagami]

Also, I know the Dom slot's role, and it's town for sure.

Oh hey this makes it kinda easy.

Let me pseudo claim a bunch of stuff just in case I die.

Hypothetically, if I were a:

Tracker- N1: Varsoon goes nowhere, N2: Bob goes nowhere
Doctor- N1: Vampirate, N2: Fink
Cop- N1: Lufan is innocent, N2: Ika is innocent
RB/JK- N1: CB, N2: ZZZX
Watcher- N1: Nobody visits Vampirate, N2: Nobody visits Miko
Gunsmith- N1: Katsuki has no gun, N2: Maxwell has no gun
Weak Visitor- N1: Varsoon, N2: Bob

I think a real miller claims in this post. I don't think it is right to blame it all on TIP.

I thought this was a great post, btw, and now it's obvious why!

[Wisdom]

name and shame ofc

every townie who quicklynched a slot with wisdom in it

[Bicephalous Bob]

Also, I know the Dom slot's role, and it's town for sure.

Oh hey this makes it kinda easy.

Let me pseudo claim a bunch of stuff just in case I die.

Hypothetically, if I were a:

Tracker- N1: Varsoon goes nowhere, N2: Bob goes nowhere
Doctor- N1: Vampirate, N2: Fink
Cop- N1: Lufan is innocent, N2: Ika is innocent
RB/JK- N1: CB, N2: ZZZX
Watcher- N1: Nobody visits Vampirate, N2: Nobody visits Miko
Gunsmith- N1: Katsuki has no gun, N2: Maxwell has no gun
Weak Visitor- N1: Varsoon, N2: Bob

I think a real miller claims in this post. I don't think it is right to blame it all on TIP.

I thought this was a great post, btw, and now it's obvious why!

it was such a stereotypical scum paper trial

TWIE being scum also was a very reasonable thing to speculate given his behavior/results; it was a town mistake to think that scum miller was the only way that TiP could have been wrong.

I considered these possibilities:

1. TWIE was a scum miller (very unlikely)
2. TWIE had another town-looking role on the list (why not claim that one?) and
a) pulled the results on town out of thin air (very risky)
b) got his results from another member of the mafia (very risky, needlessly ties them together)
3. TWIE's modifier wasn't miller but something TIP had mistaken to be town-only (possible, but I couldn't think of a town-looking modifier that made sense for a scum tracker)
4. TIP confirmed a plain tracker as town (do you really expect us to consider this?)

which one am I missing?

[Kagami]

#3 is the most reasonable, and sort of the correct one.

There are a lot of possibilities for it, especially considering the zaniness of some of the roles in the game. Weak Rolestopper, as an example, would be a reasonable scum role designed to interfere with Town on Town investigations that TiP could easily have mistaken for "Town only" and would fit the post. Faking "went nowhere" tracking results would generally be easy with any number of other roles that could exist on the scumteam (roleblocker, as an example that we actually had, and Varsoon was our block target N1, not track target).

There's also rubbish like explicit rolecop GFs that return false results (as Cabd had in Tales of Vesperia)

I think that once TiP and then Fink died, there was strong reason to consider that TiP was deceived. The post you were suspicious about belies our plan, which was to keep TiP quiet about TWIE's role by telling him "results" while leaving it open for us to claim just about anything once he was dead.

Of course, none of that changes the fact that TiP had a guilty on TWIE and somehow interpreted it as an innocent for sure. Even if everyone successfully speculated the possibility that TiP was not a Miller Tracker, it's unclear if it would ever be a good idea to lynch someone confirmed town by a rolecop over even almost-confirmed town like Skybird.

[GuyInFreezer]

Mafia PT: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 3#p7078153
Neighbor PT: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 8#p7244908
Dead PT: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 9#p7244919

[Bicephalous Bob]

eh, #4 was the closest to the truth

Weak Rolestopper

wasn't on the list, although I get your point

explicit rolecop GFs that return false results

was this bastard? if not, would this still pass the new definition of bastard? (GIF?)

Faking "went nowhere" tracking results would generally be easy with any number of other roles that could exist on the scumteam (roleblocker, as an example that we actually had, and Varsoon was our block target N1, not track target).

point taken

[GuyInFreezer]

As far as I know godfather of any kind is not considered as bastard.

[Kagami]

Cabd's role was that Orcinus, if his role was scanned in any way, he would return any role he liked with the default being Even-night Hider.

We role-copied him and got an even-night hider shot.

While there is reason to consider even-night hider as a possible scum role, the actual role would not fall in the bucket of "moderator lies that can be reasonably anticipated."

[GuyInFreezer]

Cabd's role fits in the variant of the Tailor, even though a bit unorthodox.

[Kagami]

It's a godfather at best, not Tailor. The way it interacted with other roles makes it far outside the realm of "reasonably expected lies."

Realize that it's only because of Cabd sort-of-directly interceding (by saying that we can't copy modifiers, though even-night was allowed) that we didn't copy Compulsive All-Town Shooting Vigilante.

[GuyInFreezer]

Wait are you comparing Kaiki role with Cabd's role?
Because mine was simply a investigative-immune role which returned vanilla to rolecop and only messed with Gaen's role.

[Kagami]

No, I was just stating possibilities for TWIE scum. I just that particular possibility is absolutely, unequivocally bastard.

[Sakura Hana]

Huh, speaking of, why didn't i consider the possibility of a Tailor, since Tailor isn't bastard?

[Kagami]

Because tailors don't interact with rolecops, and any role that would cause a rolecop to get a role like "1-shot Friendly Neighbor" on a scum player is outside the realm of "reasonable expectation" unless you reasonable expect just about anything (in which case, nothing is bastard).

[GuyInFreezer]

It's a godfather at best, not Tailor. The way it interacted with other roles makes it far outside the realm of "reasonably expected lies."

Realize that it's only because of Cabd sort-of-directly interceding (by saying that we can't copy modifiers, though even-night was allowed) that we didn't copy Compulsive All-Town Shooting Vigilante.

The role itself is a glorified Tailor. AFAIK the role couldn't use its power of the role he chose to disguise, right? Explicit rolecop godfathers aka tailors are not considered as bastard and considered as reasonable moderator lies.

Of course I have no idea what Cabd had in mind when he designed the setup but that kind of interaction is certainly not the first time he used it. I was in Tales of Abyss where Tammy's flavor vendor (basically a public flavor cop) gave scum a title based on his fakeclaim. So it's not really an "unreasonably expected lies" but rather his choice of action resolution.

[GuyInFreezer]

Because tailors don't interact with rolecops

, and any role that would cause a roleUcop to get a role like "1-shot Friendly Neighbor" on a scum player is outside the realm of "reasonable expectation" unless you reasonable expect just about anything (in which case, nothing is bastard).

Uh no?
Tailors are designed to explicitly mess with rolecop.

[Kagami]

Ummm, a tailor is a Godfather-izer. Has nothing to do with rolecops.

[GuyInFreezer]

Oh right, MS tailors are different from EM tailors. Excuse me for confusion.

[Kagami]

I'd recommend you change the text of the "Bastardry Question" in that case.

[GuyInFreezer]

Now that the confusion is settled I'll have to come up with different example.

Some people uses the role "Actress" in a game that's not considered as a bastard game. What the role does is that the role can change his role name to whatever she investigates so that she can explicitly fool the rolecop. I've used it in PvZ, I believe Titus used it in her large theme, and I'm pretty sure if I dig deep enough I'll be able to find more examples.

Your example of rolecop rolecopping "friendly neighbor" from a scum is absolutely possible in the case and is reasonably expected. As I've said, what Cabd chose to do there is a bit of unorthodox side, but as far as the line of bastardness goes, it's still within the boundary of "non-bastard" element.

[Kagami]

Is there even a reason for the "moderator lies that can reasonably be anticipated" clause? Why not just ban moderator lies except for deceptions associated with investigation results? As it stands, I might anticipate a Death Miller or Scum Innocent Child, so does that make them ok?

[GuyInFreezer]

Death Miller receives a VT role PM, and is not functioning as a vanilla townie.
Scum innocent child is not functioning as an innocent child because innocent child must be confirmed town.
PGO who received a doctor role PM is not functioning as a doctor because he wasn't a doctor in the first place.

Godfather is viewed as town from cops but cannot function as town.
Actress acted a friendly neighbor is viewed as a friendly neighbor but cannot function as friendly neighbor.

The difference is the view vs function.

[Kagami]

What you're really getting at is that there is a whitelist of roles and that there is no well defined equivalence. The whitelist is functionally that the moderator can lie about investigation results, or include truthful investigation results that are deliberately intended to deceive the investigator.

A town player getting an Informed Townie role telling them that a scum player is Town is bastard. A town player getting a N0 Cop shot on a Godfather is fine, though it has the same result.

[GuyInFreezer]

But you're right.

The term "reasonably expected lies" is too vague and probably needs a rewording.