Metal Gear Solid V: The Phantom Pain (GG)

[fferyllt]

Ugh.

There was plenty wrong with my play, but getting shot down over the Ranger/Elbirn connection made me mad then and depresses me now.

[Ranger]

My gripe exactly.

People didn't pay attention to the dead. The closest was Kate Bishop, but they never followed it through and pushed it strongly.

[Ranger]

(As ffery just noted.)

[T-Bone]

GET WEKT NOOB

[Xtoxm]

Ugh.

There was plenty wrong with my play, but getting shot down over the Ranger/Elbirn connection made me mad then and depresses me now.

What do you mean, shot down? You refused to hammer Elbirn and instead forced through the PB deadline lynch.

[fferyllt]

I couldn't even convince my hydra partner of that read, so I wasn't about to push it through.

[Nero Cain]

Painbringer (8):

DiamondSentinel

, Nero Cain,

T-Bone

,

Kate Bishop, Expedience

,

Elbirn

,

Metrion, GuyInFeezer

My reads were pretty wrong and I feel a little bad but my play was no where as near as bad as Ranger and Muffin are pretending it was.

I bet that happened cause of a scum-sided set-up too amirite?

You do realize that my point was to disprove Titus' claim that "no town was scum reading me!" right?

[T-Bone]

Even though I quoted you... you're not the one really arguing the scum sided setup angle.

[G[o]dz]

I don't think anyone is arguing that the entire reason mafia won is the setup, but the setup did give you a huge advantage (and no, it's not by any measure brilliant play that you're able to make lynches happen on unlynchable mafia...), I'm pretty sure the setup was mafia-sided and you didn't win because of some grand manipulation that will be remembered even a month or two from now; you won because of solid play around a flawed setup.

If you honestly think it wasn't mafia-sided, then bet a decent sum of money on it and I would be willing to programmatically calculate the EV to prove or disprove it. I'll even do you one better; all you have to do is bet on whether town's odds of winning were better than 4/9.

[T-Bone]

That's exactly what you're arguing and you're wrong. The alignment of the unlynchable role isn't relevant because that slot was not lynched twice because people thought it was scum. It was a lurker lynch, and then the correct MyLo play. Those two lynched were just more mislynches. No one needs mathematical proof to see the blatantly obvious, that set up balance had very little to do with the outcome. You take away the unlynchable role and suddenly this us a very town sided setup and the fact you are blind to this baffles me.

[PeregrineV]

The setup was not extreme. I've played a (town) role that handed out BPs each night. Those BPs were only good for as long as another player (unknown to me) was alive. I kind of consider this the inverse, since I was able to be affected by night actions when I performed the Nk. Meaning I could have been watch, tracked, killed, blocked, etc. if I took any night actions. I'm not sure, but I think I did most of the kills this game, because we were willing to take that chance. I agree with Tbone that the scumteam put forth effort (in both the main thread, the neighborhood, and the night actions) to make every day and night work out in our best interests. I really feel my major part of the team, aside from pulling in town no-lynches, was to get the team to avoid bussing. There was no reason for it, but it came up multiple times. And it would have been a tool we used, had it became necessary.

If you were killed early and don't know why, it's because you were on the right track, or pushing hard on someone we wanted to keep.

I also think the scum team powers (except for the conditional unkillable) was overall not very scum-sided, unless used wisely.

Here is my role PM, until Cabd gets a chance to post them.

PeregrineV

Hello! Welcome to Metal Gear Solid 5: The Phantom Pain Mafia Edition.

Your role in this game is as follows:

Win Condition

As a player with the Scum faction, you win when all town players are dead; or nothing can prevent this from happening.

Name and Role

Tretij Rebenok: Child of Hate

Passive Abilities

Inhabit: While The Man on Fire is alive, you are immune to all roles in the game (this includes the daily lynch). You may still choose to make the nightkill, but doing so disables this passive for that night.

Active Abilities

You have no active abilities.

[PeregrineV]

I don't think anyone is arguing that the entire reason mafia won is the setup, but the setup did give you a huge advantage (and no, it's not by any measure brilliant play that you're able to make lynches happen on unlynchable mafia...), I'm pretty sure the setup was mafia-sided and you didn't win because of some grand manipulation that will be remembered even a month or two from now; you won because of solid play around a flawed setup.

If you honestly think it wasn't mafia-sided, then bet a decent sum of money on it and I would be willing to programmatically calculate the EV to prove or disprove it. I'll even do you one better; all you have to do is bet on whether town's odds of winning were better than 4/9.

I'm pretty sure that the odds of town winning are around 50%, but, slightly less due to the lack of guilty body language that real life players put out. Someone can quote it, but I think it's about 45%?

[PeregrineV]

My gripe exactly.

People didn't pay attention to the dead. The closest was Kate Bishop, but they never followed it through and pushed it strongly.

They never do. The dead town are usually just as much right or wrong as town ever are. But, being dead, you can no longer question them about their reads, so players tend to ignore them more as the game goes on. An NKA may help give the dead players a little more credibility, but NKA can be faked almost as well as it can be accurate.

[PeregrineV]

Ugh.

There was plenty wrong with my play, but getting shot down over the Ranger/Elbirn connection made me mad then and depresses me now.

Don't let it get to you. It's a game, it's over, and you'll play again, and you may win or you may lose. Don't be depressed, sign up for another one instead!!

[ika]

this game look perfectly fine overall i dunno what godz is going off on cus the whole argument hes making is bais

i mena if he can make a program and exeucte it and show us the math behind every role doing an optimal play then maybe.

cus i mean scums can be all picked off in one night cycle. town cna not so even something like that i would argue to be townsided

[G[o]dz]

THE BONERIZOR,

You're conflating poor game balance (this game was almost certainly nowhere close to balanced but that's a side point) with poor game design. For example, no one would call it unbalanced two have a 2-person neighborhood where both neighbors are mafia, but it is extremely poor game design. The mafia win wasn't some extraordinary feat of manipulation - a majority of the mafia team didn't play well, with you being the only exception. You were able to capitalise on some flaws of the setup that I do not think town should have reasonably expected to be in play. The unlynchable role wasn't just bad from a balance perspective, it was an extremely poor design choice because no town should reasonably be expected to think, "oh, this guy that we literally cannot lynch isn't necessarily town because maybe one of his buddies is enabling it!" Likewise, the most reasonable explanation for someone getting a result on a ninja shouldn't be "ninja-bypassing" modifier...

If you're going to claim that your win wasn't largely attributed to the setup, then so be it. You're free to believe that if that's what you honestly think. But here are the facts: it was 12:4 and town got two mislynches before LyLo, you had roles that are not going to exist in the

vast

majority of games and nobody on your team, apart from you, was being read as town for any sort of play reasons.

Mods need to learn how to design role madness games properly.

[ika]

and you know how to design better? all i see is pointless words from you and no real backing it up....

I mean tbone already pointed out all the roles that could basicly end scums in one night so ya its very townsided IMO

[T-Bone]

Town got 4 mislynches, thanks for playing. You keep throwing out 12:4 like it's unbalanced or something, when in fact (other than being an even number) it's the right amount of scum for a playerlist that size. You keep throwing around the word balanced but I don't think you understand what that means. It's not the set-up's fault if player's make assumptions about roles. It's not the set-ups fault that the town couldn't get their stuff together. Hell DS slipped IN THREAD (which I yelled at him badly for) that maybe PV is unlynchable because of another scum role. DS slipped quite a bit this game with his inside knowledge. Is it the fault of the set-up that no one picked up on it? No, just like the set-up had very to do with the overall win of the scum team. We didn't have a single way to interfere with night actions. All we did was interfere with the lynches. I essentially led every single lynch in the game. Is that the set-up's fault too? That SINGLE fact is what caused the outcome of the game. T-Bone, a member of the mafia, directed ALL THE LYNCHES. We can argue semantics about how much effect on the lynches I had, but every single lynched happened because it was the outcome I wanted. Ranger pointed it out best, we had Elbrin, I said I wanted pidgey, pidgey got lynched. We had Elbrin again, I said I wanted PB, I didn't hammer Elbrin, and PB got lynched. We could have played a vanilla game and with the way we played vs. the town played we would have won, nothing to do with the set-up, and that's something you can't seem to wrap your head around and I don't know why.

[G[o]dz]

You keep throwing out 12:4 like it's unbalanced or something, when in fact (other than being an even number) it's the right amount of scum for a playerlist that size.

... Right. OK. There's not a lot of point in continuing this discussion.

[T-Bone]

Here's the thing you NEED to take away from this. We worked our asses off for this win. DS, Elbrin, and I played HALF the game with a three man scumteam until PV came in (and even then his frequent absences were not easy to deal with). I had a stressful job of managing two PTs, worried that every time I posted in the scum PT I accidentally posted in the neighborhood. But instead of taking the loss gracefully like everyone else you are marginalizing the results of the game by complaining about the set-up and blaming the set-up for the town's loss. That pisses me right off because you are dismissing all the stress and effort we put in to win this game. You're shitting on it instead of taking it gracefully, and if you can't take the loss gracefully there is no reason for you to be posting in this thread, because you are wrong, and you are just spiteing everyone who played.

[G[o]dz]

I mean tbone already pointed out all the roles that could basicly end scums in one night so ya its very townsided IMO

If you do not have any idea what balance means, then you should probably not discuss balance as though you have any idea about it.

It's not the set-ups fault that the town couldn't get their stuff together. Hell DS slipped IN THREAD (which I yelled at him badly for) that maybe PV is unlynchable because of another scum role. DS slipped quite a bit this game with his inside knowledge. Is it the fault of the set-up that no one picked up on it?

Um, actually, a lot of why town didn't get their stuff together is the setup's fault. Poor reads aside, we

did

only get two mislynches before LyLo. It wasn't four. Even in the best of circumstances, where town doesn't lynch the unlynchable mafia at all, we get three mislynches before LyLo for a total of four incorrect guesses.

Also, yes, it is the setup's fault that town doesn't pick up on "slips" (it's questionable whether that can even be called a 'slip'). Mafia slip a lot in games. I'd wager that in the vast majority of games, mafia slip some sort of setup knowledge. Do you know why town doesn't ever pick up on it? Because town doesn't know the setup and cannot be reasonably expected to know the difference between what is a "slip" and what is speculation, theories, etc. Suggesting that town should have been able to distinguish between X player suggesting crackpot ideas and Y-mafia legitimately having inside knowledge is ridiculous.

But really, I don't care. If you feel you outplayed town during the day without the aid of the setup, then so be it. That is your opinion.

The facts I stated still stand. You can choose to ignore them or call them incorrect if you so wish.

I mean, kudos to you. You apparently had a tough time winning. I don't think that's something to be proud of in a setup like this, but hey, you won. I personally do not think that the mafia team played at a level above and beyond anything I've seen from any other mafia team that's ever played the game. You are free to disagree if you think this was just one heck of a mafia team that played much better than your average team.

[T-Bone]

We're not playing the game anymore. You are so obviously wrong, have been told by multiple people, and you're still blue in the face arguing otherwise. You are wrong and it's not the set-up's fault that you're too blind to see that either.

[G[o]dz]

Right. Being told I'm wrong by people who don't have the first inkling about how to create a good setup isn't exactly strong evidence that I'm wrong.

What exactly are you suggesting I'm wrong about?

[T-Bone]

This isn't a mafia game anymore, don't even begin to try and strawman me.

[G[o]dz]

OK. You can believe what you want to believe. This was clearly an above-average mafia team and the setup didn't play a big part in how the game turned out.