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Post Post #8675 (ISO) » Sat Sep 03, 2016 12:37 pm

Post by RachMarie »

In post 8671, mastin2 wrote: And, the special town players were carried by a single individual (RachMarie), being
this
close to having been eliminated. So the special town almost did lose, in spite of their massive power, and the normal town was one or two different night actions away from being fucked over.

They didn't need every bit of strength I gave them. But they needed most of it.
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Post Post #8676 (ISO) » Sat Sep 03, 2016 12:45 pm

Post by mastin2 »

In post 8604, Cerberus v666 wrote:Town had 4.5 kills,the undead had a non-consecutive vig that they only used N1.
Town had the lynch and three vigs, scum had two kills plus a cult/kill.
The undead are a net-neutral half-kill, because the undead were written in such a way that I intended it to be possible for them to EITHER play as town OR play as scum. They were closer to town than to scum, but they were not pure town. They were special-town. They ended up playing as if they were purely town! They ended up assuming they were purely town! But when answering about their wincon, I was very deliberately elusive because telling them they were town would have been an outright lie.
In post 8607, Cerberus v666 wrote:To go deeper, town had 4.5 kills (one which was unstoppable, the lynch, and 3 of which would only work on 78% of town, confirming those it failed on as town, with false clears on 3/9 scum ), and a total of 5 BP vests. Scum had 2.5 kills(2 potential strong), and one full vest, and another conditional full vest.
I've acknowledged the faults here, but to go into them in more detail: I'd have changed the way the champions worked, such that their BP was communicative rather than cumulative. I'd also have made you full-BP rather than conditional-BP. As for the undead's 2x BP: see above. They weren't purely town, and had the potential midway through the game to morph into scum. Giving them that two-shot bulletproof was meant to give them a way to survive an onslaught of both scum
and
town, because I anticipated these practically-third-party-players to be targeted by BOTH, and have the disadvantages thereof.

In short: the Undead Risen Slaves needed to be powerful, because they needed to be able to be pitted against BOTH the town AND the scum: they needed to eliminate the scum, but they would potentially come into conflict with the town and thus, they needed a power set that was a combination of town roles and scum roles, which is why they were built the way they were.

People keep on saying the undead were town, and in practice, they were. In the actual game, after everything was said and done, they ended up playing out exactly as if they were extra town members. But when I designed the game, they were meant to be, effectively, a message:
"This is how you design a THIRD PARTY ROLE, and do it RIGHT".
The cult, which was called a cultafia, wasn't a third party; it was a flat-out scumteam.
But the undead? The undead risen slaves were meant to be third party. Their roles had a survivor aspect to them, but it was far more complex than that. They could have been scum, or they could win with town, but could not win with scum.
In post 8614, Frozen Angel wrote:and I really beleive this setup needed way more millers.
BAD idea.
Really bad idea.

Not because the millers wouldn't be believed.

Because they WOULD be.
All of them.

Like, all of them, all of them. If claimed on D1.

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This is like literally the first game of mine WITHOUT millers. (Well, unless you count the undead risen slaves and individual nosferatu showing up as an ambiguous threat to Expedience.) I know my own mod meta, and while I do try to subvert it, I also am quite aware of assumptions players are likely to make.
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Post Post #8677 (ISO) » Sat Sep 03, 2016 1:14 pm

Post by mastin2 »

In post 8655, RachMarie wrote:oh gods you brought tears to my eyes again Mastin what a beautiful love/death scene.
I know, right?

It was SO good.
And I didn't get to post it!
In post 8666, Firebringer wrote:For someone who tells me that flavor and reading into it doesn't matter, its funny for mastin to tell us to use the flavor to make a defense.
That's easily explained by a divide in mindset between my thoughts when designing the game, and my thoughts when observing the game.

My thoughts when designing the game: flavor wouldn't matter.
My thoughts when observing the game: apparently, flavor does, in spite of my efforts.
So, my thoughts when designing the game say, sure, it wouldn't have made a difference.
My thoughts when observing the game, though, are that players were doing flavor spec. The players were thinking flavor mattered. So if you had claimed to be this flavor character, your odds might have gone up.
In post 8673, Toogeloo wrote:Mastina also claimed that the Town Champs never used their special vig shots which would have been more negative town utility that she was hoping for.
Also, Bacde never used his vig, in spite of me reminding him every night he had one.
Vigs, statistically speaking, are more likely to hit town than scum.
I mean, strictly speaking: Bacde wasn't a vig. It was third party, so if anything it was closer to a serial killer than a vig.
But the fact remains, he never used it once he was the last alive.
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Post Post #8678 (ISO) » Sat Sep 03, 2016 1:18 pm

Post by Cerberus v666 »

Undead Risen Slaves were most certainly not how you design third parties.
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Post Post #8679 (ISO) » Sat Sep 03, 2016 2:37 pm

Post by Albert B. Rampage »

it was fun Mastin. well done! gg
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Post Post #8680 (ISO) » Sat Sep 03, 2016 3:06 pm

Post by Nahdia »

i like the idea behind the special town but really i think ut would have been unreasonable to expect that faction to ever decide on playing as scum for a variety of reasons. i dont dislike how you did it here just because a lot of this game was riddling stuff out, but the whole concept would proooobably be more interesting to see in action if you were more overt about the possibility of being town or scum from the get-go.
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Post Post #8681 (ISO) » Sat Sep 03, 2016 3:08 pm

Post by Nahdia »

i mean, at the end of the day, we had the town wincon (eliminate threats rather than 50%).
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Post Post #8682 (ISO) » Sat Sep 03, 2016 3:21 pm

Post by RachMarie »

I still think this is one of my most favorite posts from the unspoilered dead thread :lol:
In post 450, Luna Fox wrote:
In post 6110, RachMarie wrote:can we please not derail the discussion back on your balls again Wake.
:lol:
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Post Post #8683 (ISO) » Sat Sep 03, 2016 3:27 pm

Post by mastin2 »

Miscellaneous Commentary (Part One)

When I designed things, I wanted everyone to have some level of paranoia. I was getting awfully frustrated, since instead of SOME paranoia, it seemed like players were having OVERWHELMING paranoia. I was also worried that if I intervened in a certain way, there would be no paranoia. Eventually, this problem corrected itself, settling down into just the right levels, where I actually expected the paranoia to be. A level where town and scum equally benefited/suffered from it. Confusion caused town to submit actions hurting town, but also helping town.

The game was always going to be a puzzle, but it was meant to be solved primarily by scumhunting, with roles being used to fill in the gaps. Information at the disposal of the town was meant to give them the edge necessary to survive the onslaught of chaos and disorder and general kill-happy populations in the game, where they would be able to sift and sort through what I had given them thusfar and make deductions, deductions that would piece by piece get closer to the setup as it was, but probably never fully getting the whole thing.

So many people thought (wrongly) they had figured it out, when I was practically screaming at them the correct answer. Even the scum fell into this, at various points in time, when the answer was right before everyone: a simple trick. In spite of there being six town factions (undead, vampire, individual, west, east, north), all of them together comprised the town; in spite of being separate, the individual nosferatu and undead risen slaves share a wincon which made them special, there were two mafia, and there was a cultafia which nothing was known about.

It didn't help that I was bombarded endlessly with a string of question after question with these complex mechanics. Now, mind you. I'm autistic, so that gives me a brain-wiring that is different from most. So two people asking a question which might mean the same thing could receive two different answers because they worded it slightly differently, and my brain therefore interpreted the question (meant to be the same) in a different way.

Different ways of asking wasn't the only problem; different roles would also have different responses because their wincons were different. For instance, an obvious divergence: I had to give a different response to the undead risen slaves than I would to those with a pure town wincon, because the undead risen slaves
weren't
purely town. In short, I didn't quite have a standardized response, aside from: "Go read the game mechanics." When I had designed the game, I was expecting the game mechanics to be self-explanatory.

And to be fair...they were. Many people in the signups gave me PMs along the lines of, "Hey, I want to ask you something", I was like, "Sure, shoot", they read the mechanics post, and were like, "actually, nevermind, the mechanics post answered it for me". I built it to be as thorough and detailed as humanly possible, to answer any possible concern, so when people were questioning me, most of my answers were just paraphrasing the mechanics post, restating its words differently, maybe slightly elaborating on them, and giving them a more clear answer, but it was still a frustrating mess to be in: people thought there were all these contradictions, and I was trying my damnedest to face 28 players bombarding me simultaneously often from multiple sources (private chat, PM, topics, game thread), so keeping that in order was...well, not very easy, and I do apologize for that.

Another thing to apologize for was the miscalculation in balance. Now! Granted. This was a role madness, multiball, cult, game. It was ALWAYS going to be swingy. I underestimated the town's strength and overestimated the scum's, even if only slightly, though, and that led to a gamestate where the players doing the best at surviving were the lurkers, because the players who were active were self-destructing, drawing all sorts of negative attention to themselves be it town or scum. Not ideal.

A fun fact about the colors this game which people didn't seem to notice: I decided that the west empire would be red because of the desert. I decided the northern tribes would be cyan because of that color's association with ice. I decided that the east kingdom would be yellow because of their plains, with the undead risen slaves as orange to be close in color to yellow, and individual undead as green to represent their jungles. I decided silver for individual vampire to represent their pale skin, and gray for individual nosferatu for much the same reason.

Black was chosen for isolationists because of its tie to the night. Crimson was chosen for the wulden because it's a typical scum color aside from red, and blue was chosen for the individual humans for the same except on the pro-town side. I wanted scarlet for individual wuldens, though later learned the board doesn't support that color, and chose brown for individual lycans, both thanks to how close they were to the wulden color. This, of course, wasn't picked up on, just like the relationship between names, that I told you about in , wasn't.

You know all those character names? They weren't random. This wasn't from a source material, though; it was my head. So, how were their names meaningful? Because I had pre-assigned certain names to certain places, as per the documentation both in and in the modding PT. This is actually where some of the nation/location check value could be found: certain regions would make more sense for a character name's origin than others.

Speaking of the names: the names for the individual factions were easy. West/East/North, easy. Cult, easy. I had a little bit of trouble naming the Wulden, Isolationists, and Undead Risen Slaves, though. This might not have seemed important, but with a FACTION COP in the game, and the possibility of people flavor-speccing (I didn't expect them to use it so heavily, but I wasn't blind to the possibility it could exist), I knew that I needed to pick their names carefully. To this day, I'm not happy about my selections, because I think choosing the faction name "Wulden" for the Wuldens solidified the idea of race = faction (the opposite of what I wanted), and the name Isolationists did not properly convey...well, anything.

So overall, I think that this will be the largest-scale game I will ever do. Largest on flavor. Largest on mechanics. Largest on number of players. Largest on everything. It was a TON of work, at every stage. I quite literally devoted the last three months of my time exclusively to this game, at the expense of all other activities. It was a lot to think out, every minuscule flavor detail to enrich the world of Agnigi. Every mechanical interaction, and how to deal with it all. Every bombardment I was assaulted with. Every day that I needed to read posts, and deal with them as effectively as possible. (I received many players complaining about other players at various stages of the game, and playing the literal definition of moderator, I had to do my best to smooth things over.)

It was all a lot of work, a love letter to mafiascum of me giving my heart and soul to a game, which I wanted everyone to enjoy. Which I wanted to be a blast, I wanted to be a good thing everyone would enjoy, so I hope I at least partially succeeded there. To be honest, when I designed the game: I advertised it with the line, "This is a game that I absolutely guarantee you: if you don't play, you'll wish you had!" and also, "I absolutely promise you: this is not a game you'll want to miss." That's because when I designed it, I wanted it to be a game which, without any shadow of a doubt, would be game of the year material.

I'm not sure I succeeded: the game wasn't quite perfectly balanced, and there's been a lot of postgame bitching, which there was also plenty of during the game: "mastin isn't telling us our alignment" "mastin this game was broken" "mastin this game is predictable", dead thread, PM, scum threads, and so on and so forth. I meant for the game to be "Frustratingly Fun": for players to be frustrated at the difficulty level involved, but for it to still be, first and foremost, primarily, FUN! I wanted it to be a game everyone would enjoy, and everyone would come away from thinking, "I would play this game again", or similar. Given the reactions, I don't think I quite got it down, in spite of my work as a moderator. Being there as much as possible, with VCs, with answers, can only take you so far, so I don't think I quite made my mark as I wanted.

Still! While I didn't get that, "Oh, yeah, this was definitely THE game of the year!" reaction I was hoping for, while I didn't nail down things perfectly, while I did make a fair share of mistakes, I think that I did succeed overall: this was a momentous game. It was massive. It was grand. It was an epic project, which I shared with the world, from start to finish, taking you along for the ride. And I hope the rollercoaster was worth it in the end.
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Post Post #8684 (ISO) » Sat Sep 03, 2016 3:28 pm

Post by mastin2 »

In post 8679, Albert B. Rampage wrote:it was fun Mastin. well done! gg
That means a lot coming from you. <3
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Post Post #8685 (ISO) » Sat Sep 03, 2016 3:43 pm

Post by RachMarie »

BTW Mastin I always knew I was town just like kinda 3 rd party WITH town and that I could not win without town, I just hedged early on to keep from being nked by the scum but not so much I got lynched in the day was a tight balance, I relaxed more after I recruited Wake and his balls :lol:
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Post Post #8686 (ISO) » Sat Sep 03, 2016 4:09 pm

Post by Klingoncelt »

In post 8525, Nahdia wrote:it was probably best the undead were given the possibility of a traitor. yeah it made us blow up but if it hadnt been there, we would have been insanely powerful.

pretty funny that we tried recruiting No Retreat who ended up being the most wary of the New Humanity Treaty in the end.
I have to disagree.

In a group of fairly normal players it would be an interesting mechanic. Unfortunately our group had a special snowflake that made it clear that she didn't like neighborhoods and was doing all she could to create dissension and drama.

It cut down on the entire group's potential enjoyment of the game.

Luna Fox's shenanigans also led to my being force-replaced, the rest of the group, herself included, being nightkilled, and my replacement having to work super hard to get through each day.

Yeah, I was dumb, I took her bait and got all reactive, I'll freely admit to that, but she should have been force-replaced along with me.

Which calls into question Mastin's modding.

Henceforth I will WOTC Luna and her alts to the inner circles of hell. She's more concerned with being a special snowflake than actually playing the game. I will never sign up for a Mastin-hosted game, because she plays favorites.

That's what I have to say on the matter.
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Post Post #8687 (ISO) » Sat Sep 03, 2016 4:41 pm

Post by mastin2 »

Yeah, about that Klingoncelt:
I received multiple complaints, not just from Luna Fox, but from
literally every member of the faction
about your actions.
You used some highly-abusive language.

The first time it happened, I gave you a warning: I told you that if it happened a second time, I was force-replacing you.

It happened a second time, BUT, the other players in the topic told me you had cooled down, you had improved, that you had smoothed things out with them.
I still made it clear that if you acted that way a third time, I was force-replacing you.

And then you acted that way a third time.

That's not playing favorites.
That's me enforcing my rules:
Have fun, but don't be a jerkass. Seriously,
I'll force-replace you if you prove toxic to the game's atmosphere.
I made the call that you were being toxic to the game's atmosphere. You had, by THRICE violating the same rule (not once, not twice, but THREE TIMES) shown that you were not going to improve your behavior any time soon. The abusive language you were using, especially aimed at a particular player, was not acceptable, and need I remind you: your two PMs to me after the decision were made
continued this
, even further than before.

I do not replace players lightly. I also don't warn them lightly. (For instance, rb once or twice came close to a warning with his posting, among others.) But if one player is proving detrimental to
multiple
players (it was not just Luna Fox, as you claim, but all your undead teammates), damn straight I'm going to tell them to either improve their game or leave mine. And you didn't improve.
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Post Post #8688 (ISO) » Sat Sep 03, 2016 5:05 pm

Post by Nero Cain »

I am bored so I'm going to play devils advocate here.

Is that too much mod interference? I know it was in your "rule" set but shouldn't it be up to the games players to deal with "toxix" players?
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Post Post #8689 (ISO) » Sat Sep 03, 2016 5:14 pm

Post by Nahdia »

In post 8688, Nero Cain wrote:I know it was in your "rule" set but shouldn't it be up to the games players to deal with "toxix" players?
I for one certainly don't think so.
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Post Post #8690 (ISO) » Sat Sep 03, 2016 5:39 pm

Post by Frozen Angel »

In post 8660, mastin2 wrote:The only hints I was expecting people to take from the flavor was the expectation that the characters Nicholas Schroder and Alexis Galenos were both good guys. (Making a claim of them to be innocent child lite.) I was also expecting that people would think maybe, just maybe, instead of actually being in the game, they could instead exist as scum fakeclaims. (I also wanted people to think that maybe they could be evil, but I wasn't convinced they'd actually think that.)

Anything else, correct or incorrect, was not something I anticipated. I expected some flavor speculation to happen, of course. But you have to keep in mind: all scum had the option to request FAKE FLAVOR. Not just a fake role PM. Fake flavor for every night. Nobody, not even once, over the course of the game, asked me to do this for them, in spite of them having that power, because they didn't think it necessary. (That, or they forgot.) The speculation was, therefore, inherently going to be flawed.
ehem

as mod you must think about the effect of all your actions. Correct or Incorrect , your flavor POE'ed 2 scums in this game :]
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Post Post #8691 (ISO) » Sat Sep 03, 2016 5:41 pm

Post by Frozen Angel »

In post 8665, mastin2 wrote:You might've done better if you realized that the fakeclaim I actually DID make for you had a name.
You missed it and improvised your own.
But I gave you the name Nick. Galenos.
As in, a secret child of Nicholas Schroder, and Alexis Galenos. (The concept of naming the boy after the father is nothing new, after all.)
If you had kept 100% to the flavor of that role, then both Expedience and RachMarie would have recognized that the role was clearly making references to both of them, references which you could NOT be making up, and therefore references that MUST have come from the mod, giving validity to your claim. You would have been one happy family!
...Except you were trying to murder them all. Small detail.
I didn't saw that name ... Like yeah .....
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Post Post #8692 (ISO) » Sat Sep 03, 2016 5:45 pm

Post by Frozen Angel »

After skimming all your recent posts all my previous points remains.

You made an impossible town to break. With a massclaim and a full scan with just your invastigatives in 2 nights , the game would have been over

I think you did a great job keeping all these stuff together though, this flavor was briliant but I still think 5 man masonary , 3 man uncultable bulletproof confirmed viges and all te investigaves you put down in this game were just Too much for any scum to destroy in any manner.
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Post Post #8693 (ISO) » Sat Sep 03, 2016 5:49 pm

Post by Frozen Angel »

and stop telling us that the new treaty were not pure town

They were all PURE towns.
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Post Post #8694 (ISO) » Sat Sep 03, 2016 5:51 pm

Post by Frozen Angel »

In post 8677, mastin2 wrote:Vigs, statistically speaking, are more likely to hit town than scum.
Not in a setup with 1/3 confirmed towns.
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Post Post #8695 (ISO) » Sat Sep 03, 2016 5:54 pm

Post by Klingoncelt »

In post 8687, mastin2 wrote:Yeah, about that Klingoncelt:
I received multiple complaints, not just from Luna Fox, but from
literally every member of the faction
about your actions.
You used some highly-abusive language.

The first time it happened, I gave you a warning: I told you that if it happened a second time, I was force-replacing you.

It happened a second time, BUT, the other players in the topic told me you had cooled down, you had improved, that you had smoothed things out with them.
I still made it clear that if you acted that way a third time, I was force-replacing you.

And then you acted that way a third time.

That's not playing favorites.
That's me enforcing my rules:
Have fun, but don't be a jerkass. Seriously,
I'll force-replace you if you prove toxic to the game's atmosphere.
I made the call that you were being toxic to the game's atmosphere. You had, by THRICE violating the same rule (not once, not twice, but THREE TIMES) shown that you were not going to improve your behavior any time soon. The abusive language you were using, especially aimed at a particular player, was not acceptable, and need I remind you: your two PMs to me after the decision were made
continued this
, even further than before.

I do not replace players lightly. I also don't warn them lightly. (For instance, rb once or twice came close to a warning with his posting, among others.) But if one player is proving detrimental to
multiple
players (it was not just Luna Fox, as you claim, but all your undead teammates), damn straight I'm going to tell them to either improve their game or leave mine. And you didn't improve.
The third time was what I referred to. Luna was stirring the pot with a very big spoon. It didn't help that I had no access to the faction PT at first. It didn't help that I was being scumread for being V/LA ( - and what the fuck is up with that? NO ONE should be scumread for V/LA,
EVER
.)

The first two infractions I was in large multiball games (plural,) ongoing so I couldn't say what needed said, but in those games lurky Scum was helping Town lynch the low-hanging fruit during the Day, then at Night Scum would kill the Town-aligned PRs. Guess who ultimately won.

Town was playing the same way here, exactly the same way. I was well past frustrated and halfway through furious by then. Fuck, Town, just hand Scum the game on a silver platter round about page 4 or 5 and let's be done with it.

But I did settle down after #2. #3 was entrapment.

Whatever.

It's done and done.

Out.
Klingoncelt: "The whole scumteam slipped on page 1. It's the new meta. Sheep me because my reads are so accurate that whoever I name gets mod-converted to scum."
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Post Post #8696 (ISO) » Sat Sep 03, 2016 5:54 pm

Post by Nahdia »

In post 8693, Frozen Angel wrote:and stop telling us that the new treaty were not pure town

They were all PURE towns.
except there was a condition in which we became scum

though really, it seems unlikely the condition would have been fulfilled.
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Post Post #8697 (ISO) » Sat Sep 03, 2016 5:55 pm

Post by Frozen Angel »

Staticly speaking Bacde was a bacup vig for this town that could screw us all up after even passing the two shinigami vigs who couldn't get touched Not a serial killer. There was no Third parties in game.

When you make such Joined wins you must assume what will happen if The factions really bound together like the way they did.

It doesn't matter that you assumed undeads will be treated like third parties or whatever. It didn't happen in this game and I bet it won't in 9/10 of times. So you muct count them all Town. with that the game was really really crooked in balance view.
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Post Post #8698 (ISO) » Sat Sep 03, 2016 5:58 pm

Post by Frozen Angel »

In post 8696, Nahdia wrote:
In post 8693, Frozen Angel wrote:and stop telling us that the new treaty were not pure town

They were all PURE towns.
except there was a condition in which we became scum

though really, it seems unlikely the condition would have been fulfilled.
thats what I'm saying.

Mastian using that as a defense for telling us the town was broken in half and you guys were scum is not something I can accept at all. You all were Pure towns based on the way your role pm's were written and who everything turned out.

You might have been turned to scum AFTER rejecting the treaty which was AFTER everyother scum's death so to other scums you were all pure towns
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Post Post #8699 (ISO) » Sat Sep 03, 2016 6:00 pm

Post by Nero Cain »

tbf, I helped to antagonize Celt and I'm sorry about that. I kinda feel like there is a fine line between to much mod interference and being a good mod. I only read the first like 10 pages of the mason thread so maybe I'm not informed enough but I didn't see much of a need to replace Celt.
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edited c.s. lewis quote b/c limit
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