Maplewood Village - game over - [MATURE CONTENT!]

[Lady Lambdadelta]

So, I'm gonna poke the bear a bit, in a respectful way of course. This beginning disclaimer is to mostly say I didn't read the scene in question very deeply, came home after going out for a few hours, went 'holy fuck, this blew up', went to bed and still went 'holy shit'.

Using a magical realist way to make someone essentially down for something (what Nacho called voodoo bullshit) abridges someone's consent, and is rape. Do I think Dreal meant anything by it? Nope, and from what I read he's since apologized--there have been romance novels with worse rape scenes and as a English Lit major/Education minor I just finished a 18th Century lit class where there was not one, but two attempted rape scenes (I use the word attempted because the would be rapist never actually committed the act, he just attempted to). Was it offensive to me as a non-rapist bisexual man in 2017? Fuck yes, but

Pamela

itself was generally offensive to modern sensibilities. I have read books where it is mentioned (sometimes fairly graphically), mostly in works that are meant to biopic in nature, an acknowledgement that it happened.

The problem again, is I'm 36, going back to college and can interact with such a thing as an adult; and generally university policy is such that I can pull my professor aside and go 'this doesn't work for me' and we can work something out. People may or may not want to interact with it in a mafia game. It's also 2017 and we've come a ways from the bodice ripper novels of the 60s, 70s, and 80s; sexual consent is king (and it should be!) and people have their own beliefs and belong to a diverse amount of sexual community...can I use the words sexual culture? Some people are understandably triggered by even the mention of non-consensual date rapist (magical realist? voodoo date rapist? I don't know anymore) sex, no matter how it might have worked for the character in the game. The players matter.

I'm actually not going to spend a lot of time angry at Dreal (or anyone), this is something that he wrote a novella through the game flavor on, would of made a frankly interesting novel (although you'd find my tastes eclectic), and I don't think he meant much harm in it. I think in this case, on the internet, as a community, it's more

productive

to frankly talk about these issues when they come up then to

scream at each other as being rape apologists/art hating philistines.

So, what's the points here?
*It's a little too late for Dreal to do anything but apologize and promise essentially to be clear what such a flavor would involve. If you want to involve a list mod or moderation on the topic, feel free but the cat is out of the bag.
*Future mods

need

to be explicit on what kind of flavor may be included in their game that might trigger their audience (their players), while hanging comes with the landscape and so does murder in the game of mafia (sorry if this surprises you), other things out of it might need to be more explicit. Players need to be well-informed the experience they're about to consume.
*We're a community of

incredibly

diverse people, and it's OK to go 'you stepped on my boundary there. Not cool.' It's even OK to go to adminstration and go 'this part of this game made me feel X' and they can have a say in how future games like that are handled. At the end of the day, tho', we share this space and so telling people they are rape apologists or overreacting is burning bridges. We can be civil to each other outside the game. I respect a ton of users in this thread (also, hi, Nacho) so let's this continue, if it must, in a respectful conversation.

Yo let me be clear I have no issues with NCN when it's done and handled in a manner that is befitting its tone, which is 1) not publically, generally but if you have to 2) advertised as such.

The guy made a mature mafia game where he advertised no NCN and then put in NCN. That's not ok. That's strictly not ok. See: the dick metaphor.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

TL;DR: Just because you may be OK with it someone may not be, a 'what might appear in this game' should be explicit for future games, we need to treat each other better than candidates for major political parties because we get to share this space together, and I respect all of you.

yes I'm glad you've found a moral high ground to stand on. Good for you.

Now that you're there, can you tell me how players should feel about being told "hey there won't be any NCN in this game, don't woryr if that's tha thing you're put off by (or for some people possibly triggering negative memories for)" and then the game has this thing and you feel uncomfortable so you complain to the mod in post game and he tells you:

"It's not rape".

That's not an apology (which you said he did but "I'm sorry you feel that way" has not and never will be an acceptable apology), it's not even close to sensitivity. It's bullshit.

[chesskid3]

clearly we don't treat each other better than political candidates based on recent moderator actions

[Ghostlin]

So, I'm gonna poke the bear a bit, in a respectful way of course. This beginning disclaimer is to mostly say I didn't read the scene in question very deeply, came home after going out for a few hours, went 'holy fuck, this blew up', went to bed and still went 'holy shit'.

Using a magical realist way to make someone essentially down for something (what Nacho called voodoo bullshit) abridges someone's consent, and is rape. Do I think Dreal meant anything by it? Nope, and from what I read he's since apologized--there have been romance novels with worse rape scenes and as a English Lit major/Education minor I just finished a 18th Century lit class where there was not one, but two attempted rape scenes (I use the word attempted because the would be rapist never actually committed the act, he just attempted to). Was it offensive to me as a non-rapist bisexual man in 2017? Fuck yes, but

Pamela

itself was generally offensive to modern sensibilities. I have read books where it is mentioned (sometimes fairly graphically), mostly in works that are meant to biopic in nature, an acknowledgement that it happened.

The problem again, is I'm 36, going back to college and can interact with such a thing as an adult; and generally university policy is such that I can pull my professor aside and go 'this doesn't work for me' and we can work something out. People may or may not want to interact with it in a mafia game. It's also 2017 and we've come a ways from the bodice ripper novels of the 60s, 70s, and 80s; sexual consent is king (and it should be!) and people have their own beliefs and belong to a diverse amount of sexual community...can I use the words sexual culture? Some people are understandably triggered by even the mention of non-consensual date rapist (magical realist? voodoo date rapist? I don't know anymore) sex, no matter how it might have worked for the character in the game. The players matter.

I'm actually not going to spend a lot of time angry at Dreal (or anyone), this is something that he wrote a novella through the game flavor on, would of made a frankly interesting novel (although you'd find my tastes eclectic), and I don't think he meant much harm in it. I think in this case, on the internet, as a community, it's more

productive

to frankly talk about these issues when they come up then to

scream at each other as being rape apologists/art hating philistines.

So, what's the points here?
*It's a little too late for Dreal to do anything but apologize and promise essentially to be clear what such a flavor would involve. If you want to involve a list mod or moderation on the topic, feel free but the cat is out of the bag.
*Future mods

need

to be explicit on what kind of flavor may be included in their game that might trigger their audience (their players), while hanging comes with the landscape and so does murder in the game of mafia (sorry if this surprises you), other things out of it might need to be more explicit. Players need to be well-informed the experience they're about to consume.
*We're a community of

incredibly

diverse people, and it's OK to go 'you stepped on my boundary there. Not cool.' It's even OK to go to adminstration and go 'this part of this game made me feel X' and they can have a say in how future games like that are handled. At the end of the day, tho', we share this space and so telling people they are rape apologists or overreacting is burning bridges. We can be civil to each other outside the game. I respect a ton of users in this thread (also, hi, Nacho) so let's this continue, if it must, in a respectful conversation.

Yo let me be clear I have no issues with NCN when it's done and handled in a manner that is befitting its tone, which is 1) not publically, generally but if you have to 2) advertised as such.

The guy made a mature mafia game where he advertised no NCN and then put in NCN. That's not ok. That's strictly not ok. See: the dick metaphor.

And that was my point. My long, boring point about respecting other people's boundaries and being clear on what a flavor includes.

My other point is I don't think Dreal was even thinking 'heh, I'm going to include this sexy blood drinking bit and squick everyone out'. It was probably closer to 'I like this bit, I'm going to include it because I wrote it up and I don't think anyone's gonna have a problem with it'...

...and he probably should of reconsidered the bit, to be honest, but we're here now. I'm not excusing Dreal here. I'm not excusing the bit. All I'm doing is sharing my feelings about it and what we might be able to learn as a community in the future about it.

[Cabd]

The actual flavor text was bad and yeah it's forgivable etc.

The reason I personally took it beyond that was this post:

Also I'm pretty upset about defining rape as consentual here. That's very not okay.

there's no rape

Because that erases the victimhood and experiences of a LOT of rape survivors.

[Ghostlin]

TL;DR: Just because you may be OK with it someone may not be, a 'what might appear in this game' should be explicit for future games, we need to treat each other better than candidates for major political parties because we get to share this space together, and I respect all of you.

yes I'm glad you've found a moral high ground to stand on. Good for you.

Now that you're there, can you tell me how players should feel about being told "hey there won't be any NCN in this game, don't woryr if that's tha thing you're put off by (or for some people possibly triggering negative memories for)" and then the game has this thing and you feel uncomfortable so you complain to the mod in post game and he tells you:

"It's not rape".

That's not an apology (which you said he did but "I'm sorry you feel that way" has not and never will be an acceptable apology), it's not even close to sensitivity. It's bullshit.

I agree that if it's all Dreal did, it is bullshit, and we should try something closer to "It wasn't right for me to put it in there, I wasn't really thinking about it, I'm sorry." (Or something to that affect.) I agree with Cabd's point that non-consensual sex shouldn't be negated as non-rape, and that negates many, many sexual assault victims. I agree that Dreal should of included a warning about the rape scene (I'm frankly running out of adjectives to call it so let's just call it what it is).

I even agree that people have a right to pissed off about it, I am even roughly at the point of "what the fuck did I just play", which is not something I normally say even after the trippingest balls mafia game.

If you sincerely feel this game is beyond the pale then administration and list mods exist for a reason. I'm sorry I even remotely tried to play nice here.

[Varsoon]

I'm fairly certain drealmerz7 was defending the fiction he wrote and not attempting to erase the victimhood and experience of actual rape survivors. He didn't write that "The fictional situation that I wrote should serve as a parallel to all situations in which a real person is coerced into sex and I am saying it isn't rape." He did not write "It was not rape when real human beings were similarly coerced into sex." He wrote "there's no rape," which, in this context, tells me that drealmerz7 did not intentionally write the scene as a rape scene, and that he is defending that it is not a rape scene within the fiction that he has created.

I'm not seeing this as a campaign on drealmerz7 part to offend people or condone rape, either.

It's fine to express where you think drealmerz7 took a misstep in writing the fiction of this game, but taking it beyond that doesn't seem all that helpful.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

TL;DR: Just because you may be OK with it someone may not be, a 'what might appear in this game' should be explicit for future games, we need to treat each other better than candidates for major political parties because we get to share this space together, and I respect all of you.

yes I'm glad you've found a moral high ground to stand on. Good for you.

Now that you're there, can you tell me how players should feel about being told "hey there won't be any NCN in this game, don't woryr if that's tha thing you're put off by (or for some people possibly triggering negative memories for)" and then the game has this thing and you feel uncomfortable so you complain to the mod in post game and he tells you:

"It's not rape".

That's not an apology (which you said he did but "I'm sorry you feel that way" has not and never will be an acceptable apology), it's not even close to sensitivity. It's bullshit.

I agree that if it's all Dreal did, it is bullshit, and we should try something closer to "It wasn't right for me to put it in there, I wasn't really thinking about it, I'm sorry." (Or something to that affect.) I agree with Cabd's point that non-consensual sex shouldn't be negated as non-rape, and that negates many, many sexual assault victims. I agree that Dreal should of included a warning about the rape scene (I'm frankly running out of adjectives to call it so let's just call it what it is).

I even agree that people have a right to pissed off about it, I am even roughly at the point of "what the fuck did I just play", which is not something I normally say even after the trippingest balls mafia game.

If you sincerely feel this game is beyond the pale then administration and list mods exist for a reason. I'm sorry I even remotely tried to play nice here.

Let's say I've grown exhausted of people who try to see the good in all sides of things, and it isn't our job to ensure that we take the most charitable interpretation of things, or that the sensibilities of someone who promised there would be no rape scene, and the delievered a very explicit one, aren't my concern.

Had Drealmerz simply said "yep, I understand where you're coming from and I can see why you would take my scene that way. I was in the wrong, I promised nothing like this would be included in the game and this didn't just toe the line, it stomped on it. It wasn't my intention and I certainly didn't originally see that scene as going too far, or I wouldn't have included it in my game. I deeply apologize to anyone who was bothered by the content in my game, and I will strive to do better in the future." I would have been like "yup, ok, dude was an idiot, fucked up, clearly doesn't have a concept of what consent and rape actually are, but that's fine it's a teachable moment and if he does it again in the future we can point to this and say "you've learned nothing your apologies don't mean anything".

But he didn't do that, he didn't offer solace, remorse or even just admit any fault.

He stood back to the wall and chose to say "I did nothing wrong".

And then had two of his friends come in and say "he did nothing wrong I don't see any rape here".

Which is fucking unbelievable.

If you wanna know why I won't "play nice" as you put it, it's because there are still people who will take advantage of people who play nice and use them as a shield to hide behind. So they don't need to admit any fault, they can hide behind any number of things.

So I'm gonna stand on this soap box and damn anyone who tells me to be more moderate.

[Ghostlin]

The actual flavor text was bad and yeah it's forgivable etc.

The reason I personally took it beyond that was this post:

Also I'm pretty upset about defining rape as consentual here. That's very not okay.

there's no rape

Because that erases the victimhood and experiences of a LOT of rape survivors.

And this is a valid point. Frankly, I was closer "how might someone do this in a mafia game in a consensual way for players to enjoy (enjoy is the wrong word here--enjoy is a synonym of 'like' and I can't 'like' a coerced rape by proxy scene) a game with such a flavor without someone getting sideswiped by it. And really, it's being explicit that such a scene exists full-stop.

[Cabd]

"This game contains scenes involving rape that may be disturbing to some players. Player discretion is advised"

^If that line had been in the signups thread, NONE of this would have been happening.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

"This game contains scenes involving rape that may be disturbing to some players. Player discretion is advised"

^If that line had been in the signups thread, NONE of this would have been happening.

YUP.

Just to reiterate that in all my words, this is also another thing that would have solved the problem 10000%

[Ghostlin]

"This game contains scenes involving rape that may be disturbing to some players. Player discretion is advised"

^If that line had been in the signups thread, NONE of this would have been happening.

Exactly. Well, people might still be complaining about the mechanics and what-not, but that's secondary; it wouldn't attract nearly the attention the inclusion of the scene did.

[Varsoon]

LLD, I wouldn't say that I'm drealmerz friend. He's a dude I know on a website. Just because I am not campaigning against him does not make us 'friends'. Take a breath and stop conflating this into a conflict that it isn't.
As I wrote earlier, there's a place to have a discussion about the differences between temptation and coercion in regards to sex, and that place should likely not be in the post-game of a mafia game.
Furthermore, I've outright advocated that drealmerz (and any mod) never run an 'explicit' 'mature' or 18+ game on this site. This simply is not the place for such a thing.
I've only stated that I understand the reality in which drealmerz wrote a scene that he does not see as a rape scene, and he has defended that piece of writing. People are free to disagree, be offended, and express where drealmerz has made a mistake, but that discussion should be civil rather than inflammatory and should seek to make the site a better place.

P-EDIT:
Seeing as drealmerz didn't envision the scene as a rape scene, that sort of disclaimer would've never been written. We can talk preventative measures all day, but the reality is that drealmerz doesn't see the scene he wrote as a rape scene, and if you think that it is one, you should express that. I definitely think that it could be interpreted as one and is certainly over the line when it comes to what I find acceptable on-site, and I've expressed why. If your intention is to see this sort of thing not repeat itself, try to explain to drealmerz why the scene he wrote could be interpreted as a rape scene.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

LLD, I wouldn't say that I'm drealmerz friend. He's a dude I know on a website. Just because I am not campaigning against him does not make us 'friends'. Take a breath and stop conflating this into a conflict that it isn't.
As I wrote earlier, there's a place to have a discussion about the differences between temptation and coercion in regards to sex, and that place should likely not be in the post-game of a mafia game.
Furthermore, I've outright advocated that drealmerz (and any mod) never run an 'explicit' 'mature' or 18+ game on this site. This simply is not the place for such a thing.
I've only stated that I understand the reality in which drealmerz wrote a scene that he does not see as a rape scene, and he has defended that piece of writing. People are free to disagree, be offended, and express where drealmerz has made a mistake, but that discussion should be civil rather than inflammatory and should seek to make the site a better place.

P-EDIT:
Seeing as drealmerz didn't envision the scene as a rape scene, that sort of disclaimer would've never been written. We can talk preventative measures all day, but the reality is that drealmerz doesn't see the scene he wrote as a rape scene, and if you think that it is one, you should express that. I definitely think that it could be interpreted as one and is certainly over the line when it comes to what I find acceptable on-site, and I've expressed why. If your intention is to see this sort of thing not repeat itself, try to explain to drealmerz why the scene he wrote could be interpreted as a rape scene.

As it happens you were not one of the two people I was talking about when I said his "Friends" so.... yeah

[Varsoon]

Wheh. I was worried there. I thought you were clumping everyone who didn't outright jump down drealmerz throat as his friend/ally in some sort of weird rape campaign.

I feel that my solution of abstaining from running games with mature/explicit/sexual flavor is far easier than trying to navigate the complexity of understanding the nuances of how one's fiction may be interpreted and appropriately giving warnings about it beforehand.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Wheh. I was worried there. I thought you were clumping everyone who didn't outright jump down drealmerz throat as his friend/ally in some sort of weird rape campaign.

I feel that my solution of abstaining from running games with mature/explicit/sexual flavor is far easier than trying to navigate the complexity of understanding the nuances of how one's fiction may be interpreted and appropriately giving warnings about it beforehand.

Yeah I'm not here to just lump everyone together. Like, Ghostlin has the right of most of it, I just disapprove of the play nice approach, and have expressed why I feel this way.

I differ from you in that I think it is fine to run 18+ things on MS, but you gotta label that shit properly, and if we can't be able to do that, or put actual rules in place punishing people who break those expectations, then yes, we should put blanket restrictions down.

Having this not happen is more important than having the ability to run 18+ games, at the end of the day. I'd like to think we could do both, but we'll see.

[nancy]

But he didn't do that, he didn't offer solace, remorse or even just admit any fault.

???

Yes, I am sorry it comes off as rape (I can see how it does too now that ppl have said it, for me it wasn't - I have simply been trying to get ppl to understand, it's not "continuing to defend", it's continuing to try and explain, I think being understood / having understanding can be more important than just an apology, but wasn't meaning to not apologize for a bunch of ppl reading something and going GRRRRBLEAHALKDFHALKMNFEWR rape?! certainly the furthest thing from my intentions!) Seriously, I do not like rape at all. I am a super non-aggro guy and it's the farthest thing from my mindset. It is gross and I am sorry it came off like that, I should have been more careful, I could have / have been more explicit with its consensual and enjoyable erotic nature that it was intended to be.

[Tammy]

The actual flavor text was bad and yeah it's forgivable etc.

The reason I personally took it beyond that was this post:

Also I'm pretty upset about defining rape as consentual here. That's very not okay.

there's no rape

Because that erases the victimhood and experiences of a LOT of rape survivors.

No it really doesn't. You are taking a post from the very beginning of the conversation and acting as if it's the end of the conversation and there wasn't more. This is from what I can tell the first mention of it. So in his response to you, he wasn't even aware people thought of that scene he wrote, as a consensual scene, to be a rape scene. His response was not denying anyone's victimhood, he was denying the existence of it being in his game because he didn't see it or write it that way.

Let's look at what happened when it started being spelled out, which you guys are conveniently acting as if doesn't exist when it does.

Also I'm pretty upset about defining rape as consentual here. That's very not okay.

this. give a murder game content like this by all means, but i really wouldn't call that consensual.

Also I'm pretty upset about defining rape as consentual here. That's very not okay.

this. give a murder game content like this by all means, but i really wouldn't call that consensual.

):

he was totally into it in his heart and body though, anyone who wasn't wouldn't have been susceptible

he really enjoyed it, the only reason there's a "black out and don't remember" element is because I can't tell the player anything about what happened to them at Night actionwise but also want to subtly hint at something maybe having happened

the Skilled Hunter (Dave) wouldn't get tempted by her allure because of being devoted to his family, etc.

definitely never intended to get anywhere close to rape :\

So when it's pointed out what the rape scene thing was in reference to and it didn't seem consensual, he defends himself here yeah because hey his intention was that it was consensual.

I get you would prefer he'd immediately say I'm sorry for a rape scene, but his first impetus is to try to explain his intentions that he never intended it to come across as rape and as if rape was okay. Like he says he never intended it to come close to rape.

Now the conversation would be great if it turned to why this was rape and why it came across as rape in a reasonable, meaningful way, but it didn't.

the Skilled Hunter (Dave) wouldn't get tempted by her allure because of being devoted to his family, etc.

yeah you're right date rape drugs don't work exactly the same on people devoted to their families and they can't be raped

get the fuck out

that is why it is NOT what happened here

that's my whole point, and yet you misconsrtue it backwards

This is changing the conversation from his meaning and intention. This is teetering quite close to an actual straw man argument.

He points out again that that wasn't his intention.

He's just been attacked and accused of making rape okay and making a rape scene; his first impetus again is to clarify his intentions which was not to condone an act he finds abhorrent.

it was the exhaustive sex that made you pass out and not remember, not the supernaturalness

she used HER BLOOD, to tempt you SEXUALLY, on a primal level sort of thing, her blood didn't contain an element that roofied you, it simply bonded your fluids in a way

it wasn't the blood that made you not remember at all, and I understand ppl are saying it seemed like rape and I understand that, but it really wasn't intended as anything but consensual

Again he's trying to clarify the point that that wasn't his intention but he's starting to understand that people interpreted that way.

again, he passed out and didn't remember from the exhaustive sex and drained spent fluids

in my mind, when I wrote it, he consented, wanted it, enjoyed it, and the memories might come back to him someday and he won't regret them and will be like "ohya we banged, I did want that, it was great!"

the blood didn't have an influence on his memory or passing out at all, it was more a deep pheremonal connection instilled

I really did not have anything nonconsenual in mind when I wrote it and should have been more explicit in how consensual it was. It sucks it comes off the other way for sure.

I DO NOT CONDONE RAPE.

ffs ppl

Here he's starting to come to an understanding of what people are seeing and where he still didn't mean it that way he literally says he acknowledges now that he should have made the consensuality explicit and that he does not condone rape.

then how about apologizing for the way it was presented instead of continuing to defend and having to add to what you'd written, because your intentions clearly did not come across.

I did think I had. but to be clear!

Yes, I am sorry it comes off as rape (I can see how it does too now that ppl have said it, for me it wasn't - I have simply been trying to get ppl to understand, it's not "continuing to defend", it's continuing to try and explain, I think being understood / having understanding can be more important than just an apology, but wasn't meaning to not apologize for a bunch of ppl reading something and going GRRRRBLEAHALKDFHALKMNFEWR rape?! certainly the furthest thing from my intentions!) Seriously, I do not like rape at all. I am a super non-aggro guy and it's the farthest thing from my mindset. It is gross and I am sorry it came off like that, I should have been more careful, I could have / have been more explicit with its consensual and enjoyable erotic nature that it was intended to be.

Here he does apologize and says he was trying to get people to understand his point of view, which is normal. If someone accuses of you of doing something wrong, your impetus is to defend yourself, to explain yourself and to make yourself clear that you didn't do what you were accused of. He acknowledges that it could come across the way it was, he acknowledges that he was trying to explain his thoughts because he thought understanding was more important than saying I'm sorry that understanding where he was coming from is better than a platitude.

To suggest that he never acknowledged and he never said anything is just wrong.

[Tammy]

Young sexy lumberjack seeks young virgin bride who enjoys long walks in the forest alone with inability to scream.

Inquire within.

And while we're talking about things that come across not okay and sexual. I took this as an add for a planned sexual assault and murder.

Why is this okay?

[Tammy]

"This game contains scenes involving rape that may be disturbing to some players. Player discretion is advised"

^If that line had been in the signups thread, NONE of this would have been happening.

Would have been a fine thing to advertise and I'm sure he would if he conceived of what he wrote as being rape or thought it would be interpreted that way.

Which is clear from what he wrote that he neither intended it to be written that way or expected it to come across that way. It being brought to his attention last night is literally what made him aware that people could interpret things this way.

[Tammy]

And then had two of his friends come in and say "he did nothing wrong I don't see any rape here".

Not even remotely what was said.

I'm sorry though did you play in the game? Or were you riled up and brought here by friends in discord channels trying to vilify someone to come help put them down.

[Tammy]

And yes, friend or not, if I see someone being trashed unfairly or misunderstood, I'm going to defend them or try to explain where it's clear they're coming from.

[chesskid3]

And yes, friend or not, if I see someone being trashed unfairly or misunderstood, I'm going to defend them or try to explain where it's clear they're coming from.

really cuz the dead QT wherein you were the trasher would disagree

[Porkens]

If I ran a game in which all the roles were different pictures of my dick, would any of you like to /in?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Porkens' Pork Ends?