how good is vonflare at laser tag [game over]

[Ausuka]

I think that it was one minor point you had for him, and not as major as you seem to be suggesting here- you even described it as a "skim" of his meta.

"skim" meant I only read a couple games of each alignment, but the point stuck across those games
I'm also not suggesting it's the biggest reason to scumread him; I detailed the major reasons for scumreading Tora in 2084, and have since remembered that his post count is another reason to scumread him

That's one reason, and while it's not a bad reason it's not too compelling to me when there are more reasons than that to believe Dunnstral is scum (which I outlined in 2108.) If this one point is worth a lynch today in LYLO, why wasn't it worth that yesterday?

Why?

Because in the world where Invis is town he could have been hammered (unless you think dunnstral/chickadee/myself are all scum, which I know isn't true)
On the other hand "maybe scum can't manage to coordinate a hammer" has been said so many times, scum are probably saying it too and it might just be true, which is why I unvoted
Do you think there's any chance invis/dunn are tvt?

Yeah. This is an inactive game, you need many scum to come online, it's possible that town voting town only occured recently, and the absence of the Tora/Purr slot could throw a wrench in the works. But tbh I'm willing enough to bet the game on a Dunnstral vote that I'm not very concerned about that.

[Irrelephant11]

I'm actually really confused why this is my first time seeing 2108????

[Irrelephant11]

Like I am 100% certain I have never read these words, weird

[Irrelephant11]

He quickhammered Gamma when d1 was super important and had weird progression into doing it. He suspected Gamma super early d1, forgot about it and then hammered with the justification of "oh we don't need Cobbler's thoughts if gamma is scum" - yeah well what if he's town? His defense of Toranaga was suspicious regardless of Tor's alignment - he kinda just jumped into defending him and won't respond about why he was so certain that PP would have re-evaluated is read. Additionally he accused Maria of "just a naked vote that won't gain any traction so she can coast through the day on a baseless read while hoping townies start to wagon me." which a) doesn't really make any sense because I think if you want to coast through the day on a naked vote that won't get any traction, you don't exactly want people to focus on your target, and b) he is basically doing literally the exact same thing as he's accusing Maria of doing wrt/ voteparking Maria and not trying to push any wagon that will gain traction.

All of this still applies and it applies even more now that MariaR is DEAD and Dunnstral is the one who benefits from that because, guess what, she would have voted for Dunnstral today. He pretended that he didn't see the kill flip which is garbage and just a fake townslip. Why would you not read the kill flip? It's literally vital information and there is no reason to just ignore it. Dunnstral's read on Invis came out of absolutely nowhere. The push on Invis was completely artificial and generated today. In the span of eight posts he decides Invisibility is scum LITERALLY FOR PUSHING HIM WHEN HE HAD AN ENTIRE WAGON OF PEOPLE VOTING FOR HIM YESTERDAY and for coasting (which applies to almost half of the playerlist and this is more Invisibility's playstyle than actually coasting.) There is no progression before this, it's a sudden rush into voting Invis. And despite even saying Tora was guilty of the same thing, he tries to push me into voting Invis when I turn up in the thread using the logic of "no quickhammer so scum between us" - multiple people have pointed out that this isn't true already and he's just ignoring that because it's not convenient? I can't imagine it would be easy to get 5 people online at one time especially since they most likely have varying timezones, and this is an inactive game where people aren't turning up as much as usual.

speaking of which, why aren't we lynching him? He's still not getting quick lynched and there's 5 scum alive, I wonder why that is

This is playing dumb. He KNOWS about the possibility that he himself could be scum, he doesn't actually totally lack awareness of the situation.

In addition to this he was also tunneling on Maria for the entirety of d2 as an excuse to do absolutely nothing. Like, he kept acting like people were actually going to vote MariaR, which obviously wasn't the case, and complaining about how we won't consider MariaR as a wagon when it has exactly 1 member and nobody else was ever going to consider joining.

MariaR seems awfully content to sit back and let Titus get lynched considering she apparently knows I'm scum

This is outstandingly hypocritical considering that even though the Maria wagon was obviously never going to happen, Dunn just said "oh let's vote Maria!" as if that was going to get anything done.

VOTE: Dunn

such a scum vote

is there someone else you'd like to lynch Dunn?

Not really

This read on NM totally disappeared here. He also pushed NM a bit later, here:

Is there a punishment for voting first?

And yet you didn't vote and also seem to hold no opinions

But apparently voting Invis out of nowhere is the better option.

What's so good about the Invis wagon then? Irrelephant, for all your talk of my vote on Dunn being a "bad vote" and me being scum for it, there's no reason for your vote given at all, and it seemingly came out of absolutely nowhere at all, other than suspecting Toranaga for flaking? Flaking isn't a scum strategy, that's not how it works. If you flake, you cannot win. Your replacement is part of the game, you aren't. It is not a strategical move. Mafia are not going to flake to advance their win condition. Not to mention the fact that Tora and Dunn could easily be scum together. If you believe scum only bus when it's totally optimal you are flat out wrong and the only thing from either of them that really comes close to real bussing is Tora's "let's lynch Dunn for Maria" at the start of d3. And even then he would've known that wouldn't actually happen!

Okay I started by trying to snip this post to make it easier to respond to but it's already got a lot going on so here are just my thoughts:
-To start, Purrcocet has already joined the dunnstral wagon, so you basically have to decide between Tora and dunnstral being scum here (unless you think purrcocet is going in hard on a scumbuddy in lylo)
-You're 100% misrepping my case on Tora. You make it sound like I was like "Oh tora replaced out? Must be scum" when the replace-out is 0% of my case. I think Tora's votes have been opportunistic (was on both wagons with basically no reasons), his engagement with the content of this game was crap, his stances were inconsistent, and his push on dunnstral this game day was extremely convenient. Not to mention his laissez faire attitude was basically openwolfing given how he refused to internalize the importance of early lynches in this setup even as a bunch of people explained it to him
--> As a sub-point, "MariaR died so Dunnstral has to be scum" is like the most WIFOM-y thing you could say about the nightkill here. Assume dunnstral is town and you are scum for a second. What would be the easiest mislynch you could get here by using the nightkill effectively?
-My vote on Invis did not come from out of nowhere. I've clearly been acting on some false assumptions, including townreading both dunnstral and invis (I seriously doubt both are town here), so I've been re-evaluating. Invis' play has basically been "tunneling" in the exact same way you're describing dunnstral's "tunnel" on MariaR. The difference fmpov is that
--> A) dunnstral's felt more personal, and therefore more understandable
--> B) Invis jumped on multiple mislynch wagons when it became convenient to do so


after writing all that out it occurred to me that dunnstral/invis both being conf!50/50 t/s is actually not really that helpful of information, because all of you are conf!50/50 t/s given this is lylo. I hate this game day and am prepared to complain about this setup lots post-game

[Invisibility]

he makes good pushes
on town

good as in good at getting people to agree with him or good as in good reads

[Ausuka]

He quickhammered Gamma when d1 was super important and had weird progression into doing it. He suspected Gamma super early d1, forgot about it and then hammered with the justification of "oh we don't need Cobbler's thoughts if gamma is scum" - yeah well what if he's town? His defense of Toranaga was suspicious regardless of Tor's alignment - he kinda just jumped into defending him and won't respond about why he was so certain that PP would have re-evaluated is read. Additionally he accused Maria of "just a naked vote that won't gain any traction so she can coast through the day on a baseless read while hoping townies start to wagon me." which a) doesn't really make any sense because I think if you want to coast through the day on a naked vote that won't get any traction, you don't exactly want people to focus on your target, and b) he is basically doing literally the exact same thing as he's accusing Maria of doing wrt/ voteparking Maria and not trying to push any wagon that will gain traction.

All of this still applies and it applies even more now that MariaR is DEAD and Dunnstral is the one who benefits from that because, guess what, she would have voted for Dunnstral today. He pretended that he didn't see the kill flip which is garbage and just a fake townslip. Why would you not read the kill flip? It's literally vital information and there is no reason to just ignore it. Dunnstral's read on Invis came out of absolutely nowhere. The push on Invis was completely artificial and generated today. In the span of eight posts he decides Invisibility is scum LITERALLY FOR PUSHING HIM WHEN HE HAD AN ENTIRE WAGON OF PEOPLE VOTING FOR HIM YESTERDAY and for coasting (which applies to almost half of the playerlist and this is more Invisibility's playstyle than actually coasting.) There is no progression before this, it's a sudden rush into voting Invis. And despite even saying Tora was guilty of the same thing, he tries to push me into voting Invis when I turn up in the thread using the logic of "no quickhammer so scum between us" - multiple people have pointed out that this isn't true already and he's just ignoring that because it's not convenient? I can't imagine it would be easy to get 5 people online at one time especially since they most likely have varying timezones, and this is an inactive game where people aren't turning up as much as usual.

speaking of which, why aren't we lynching him? He's still not getting quick lynched and there's 5 scum alive, I wonder why that is

This is playing dumb. He KNOWS about the possibility that he himself could be scum, he doesn't actually totally lack awareness of the situation.

In addition to this he was also tunneling on Maria for the entirety of d2 as an excuse to do absolutely nothing. Like, he kept acting like people were actually going to vote MariaR, which obviously wasn't the case, and complaining about how we won't consider MariaR as a wagon when it has exactly 1 member and nobody else was ever going to consider joining.

MariaR seems awfully content to sit back and let Titus get lynched considering she apparently knows I'm scum

This is outstandingly hypocritical considering that even though the Maria wagon was obviously never going to happen, Dunn just said "oh let's vote Maria!" as if that was going to get anything done.

VOTE: Dunn

such a scum vote

is there someone else you'd like to lynch Dunn?

Not really

This read on NM totally disappeared here. He also pushed NM a bit later, here:

Is there a punishment for voting first?

And yet you didn't vote and also seem to hold no opinions

But apparently voting Invis out of nowhere is the better option.

What's so good about the Invis wagon then? Irrelephant, for all your talk of my vote on Dunn being a "bad vote" and me being scum for it, there's no reason for your vote given at all, and it seemingly came out of absolutely nowhere at all, other than suspecting Toranaga for flaking? Flaking isn't a scum strategy, that's not how it works. If you flake, you cannot win. Your replacement is part of the game, you aren't. It is not a strategical move. Mafia are not going to flake to advance their win condition. Not to mention the fact that Tora and Dunn could easily be scum together. If you believe scum only bus when it's totally optimal you are flat out wrong and the only thing from either of them that really comes close to real bussing is Tora's "let's lynch Dunn for Maria" at the start of d3. And even then he would've known that wouldn't actually happen!

Okay I started by trying to snip this post to make it easier to respond to but it's already got a lot going on so here are just my thoughts:

-To start, Purrcocet has already joined the dunnstral wagon, so you basically have to decide between Tora and dunnstral being scum here (unless you think purrcocet is going in hard on a scumbuddy in lylo)

Yeah and I've chosen Dunn.

-You're 100% misrepping my case on Tora. You make it sound like I was like "Oh tora replaced out? Must be scum" when the replace-out is 0% of my case.

but you said it was scum-indicative for him though.

I think I would still be willing to vote Tor-slot? I just finished a game with Toranaga and his postcount here is absolutely AI.

I think Tora's votes have been opportunistic (was on both wagons with basically no reasons)

This isn't necessarily scummier than being on both wagons while giving reasons for it and "opportunistic" isn't really a good scumtell? Any scum can form reasons if they want to, and this is the same reasoning you used against me in Watchmen Wanted and what you used on Titus earlier. Besides, Chickadee was also on both wagons and didn't really have any reasoning for that.

his engagement with the content of this game was crap, his stances were inconsistent

This means nothing unless you elaborate on what you mean by it.

his push on dunnstral this game day was extremely convenient.

I mean like if someone is nightkilled swearing that someone else is scum it really isn't a horrible idea to follow the dead person.

Not to mention his laissez faire attitude was basically openwolfing given how he refused to internalize the importance of early lynches in this setup even as a bunch of people explained it to him

Except people were actively following that attitude and the only one who mentioned this pre-Gamma lynch was me? and like I didn't do it in an incredibly obvious way and I can sort of see how you miss that. Also again I was pushing this yesterday and if you believe it's scummy I don't understand why you refused to vote Toranaga yesterday? Like you just didn't consider it and even went to find a new wagon, and if these points are so compelling to you I don't get why you ignored them yesterday. Today would be much easier if we had lynched Tora over Titus.

--> As a sub-point, "MariaR died so Dunnstral has to be scum" is like the most WIFOM-y thing you could say about the nightkill here. Assume dunnstral is town and you are scum for a second. What would be the easiest mislynch you could get here by using the nightkill effectively?

I kill anyone and win the game probably. Nobody actually does NKA which has been proven by everyone collectively ignoring Maria's death. And you're failing to consider that it's LYLO- i.e if I want Dunn dead I leave Maria alive so she can vote Dunn, then scum quickhammer and win.

-My vote on Invis did not come from out of nowhere. I've clearly been acting on some false assumptions, including townreading both dunnstral and invis (I seriously doubt both are town here), so I've been re-evaluating. Invis' play has basically been "tunneling" in the exact same way you're describing dunnstral's "tunnel" on MariaR. The difference fmpov is that
--> A) dunnstral's felt more personal, and therefore more understandable

Tbh I have no idea what this is supposed to mean.

--> B) Invis jumped on multiple mislynch wagons when it became convenient to do so

Penguin and Dunn also jumped on the Gamma wagon for little to no reason. Why is Invis in particular scummy for this? You could also say this about pretty much anyone who jumped on Titus because they were bored or whatever.

Besides I think Invis being blank is sorta a stylistic thing? Like I don't think that Invis as town would be spewing logically backed content and four paragraphs to go with every vote he makes.


after writing all that out it occurred to me that dunnstral/invis both being conf!50/50 t/s is actually not really that helpful of information, because all of you are conf!50/50 t/s given this is lylo. I hate this game day and am prepared to complain about this setup lots post-game[/quote]

[Ausuka]

ignore that last bit please, I should've removed it but forgot to.

[xyzzy]

votecount 3.08

3 players voting for Dunnstral (Invisibility, Ausuka, Purrcocet)
2 players voting for Majiffy (Chickadee, Chara)
1 player voting for Invisibility (Dunnstral)

5 players not voting (Not_Mafia, Alchemist21, Majiffy, Cobblerfone, Irrelephant11)

with 11 players alive, it takes 6 votes to lynch.

the current day will end in (expired on 2018-11-04 15:30:00).

mod notes: Not_Mafia has been prodded.

[Invisibility]

lol

[Majiffy]

VOTE: Dunn

[Dunnstral]

VOTE: Majiffy

I spoonfed you guys the invis scum lynch, it's not my fault if we lose because Majiffy was dumb town

[Cobblerfone]

VOTE: Dunn

And my reads are lining up, though I do wonder if you’re scum why you waited so long

VOTE: Majiffy

I spoonfed you guys the invis scum lynch, it's not my fault if we lose because Majiffy was dumb town

See this is the kind of thing that makes me want dunnstral out of the game, but it’s lylo and I’m towreading him. Maybe if we survive the day we can lynch him tomorrow (when it’s no longer lylo).

I’m quite exhausted from switching back and forth from working on a C language programming project and a (self-selected) mafia Android app project, however, both will be done tomorrow, so I should be able to be more attentive here on Wednesday. I’ll still read and probably post once tomorrow.

Right now here are my reads: chikadee and dunnstral are town. Chara and irrelephant are probably town. I am wondering about team configurations and if I finish my projects early tomorrow I’ll try to see who could be scum with whom even if my reads are wrong

[Dunnstral]

If majiffy is town we already lost so not sure why me moving to majiffy following their naked vote on me (UNEXPLAINED, btw) means I should be the one out of the game, but OK

Again, Majiffy faffed about all day then naked voted me, probably doesn't deserve to win anyway so I'll vote him out yeah

[Not_Mafia]

VOTE: Majiffy

This is the most unboring vote

[Invisibility]

nm vote dunn

[Majiffy]

No no we can Lynch me this is fine

[Purrcocet]

Ur town read is scum Cobbler
Majiffy isn't

[Irrelephant11]

invis/ausuka/purr/majiffy are town

or

chara/nm/dunnstral/chickadee?

I choose the latter

VOTE: Majiffy

[Alchemist21]

VOTE: Majiffy

[Irrelephant11]

is that hammer?

[Alchemist21]

votecount 3.08

3 players voting for Dunnstral (Invisibility, Ausuka, Purrcocet)
2 players voting for Majiffy (Chickadee, Chara)
1 player voting for Invisibility (Dunnstral)

5 players not voting (Not_Mafia, Alchemist21, Majiffy, Cobblerfone, Irrelephant11)

with 11 players alive, it takes 6 votes to lynch.

the current day will end in (expired on 2018-11-04 15:30:00).

mod notes: Not_Mafia has been prodded.

2

VOTE: Majiffy

I spoonfed you guys the invis scum lynch, it's not my fault if we lose because Majiffy was dumb town

3

VOTE: Majiffy

This is the most unboring vote

4

invis/ausuka/purr/majiffy are town

or

chara/nm/dunnstral/chickadee?

I choose the latter

VOTE: Majiffy

5

VOTE: Majiffy

6

Should be the hammer unless I forgot how to count.

[Ausuka]

Sorry for not being convincing enough. gg. Thanks for modding xyzzy.

[Majiffy]

Thank god this shit is over

[Invisibility]

ugh

[xyzzy]

votecount 3.09

6 players voting for Majiffy (Chickadee, Chara, Dunnstral, Not_Mafia, Irrelephant11, Alchemist21)
4 players voting for Dunnstral (Invisibility, Ausuka, Purrcocet, Majiffy)

1 player not voting (Cobblerfone)

with 11 players alive, it takes 6 votes to lynch.

the day has ended.

mod notes:

Majiffy

OMEGA

³² But the color that the magnets were on didn't matter; the solution to the puzzle merely required that they all be lit up.

you are a

townie

! you win once no members of the mafia are alive.

as long as you are alive, during the day, you can vote and post in the game thread.

from

The Gospel of Toronto, As I Recall It

by xyzzy

Chapter 18

¹ Having finished all their laser tag games, the group decided to go to Ikea, because there was an Ikea, and why would you not go there? ² They planned to just go to the one Ikea. There's no reason to go to more than one Ikea in a single day -- they're pretty much the same inside. ³ It would be very strange if they went to two Ikeas in one day. There would be no reason for that. ⁴ Just one Ikea pretty much covers all the possibilities when it comes to things that you can experience in an Ikea. ⁵ They've got the same toasters in each Ikea. ⁶

Yes,

everyone agreed.

We'll go to just one Ikea.

the mafia team of

Not_Mafia, Chara, Alchemist21, Irrelephant11, and Dunnstral

have won!