BooneyToonz XII: Corporate Boontrigue (Game Over!!!)

[Asuka]

I'm not saying scum played flawlessly or that town didn't win this off dayplay, but in a large game with two strongmans there is literally no reason to think there would be no protective roles like a doctor. Why do you think scum would think those roles are squishy? Doctor is an iconic role and BP is generally regarded as a niche role. "Scum have a strongman" I don't think leads to "thru setup spec, town has no doctors" makes any sense. In that sense, no, "town rolecop" is not a "squishy" role.

[Elsa Jay]

Vigilantes and rolecops are squishy....

Not when they got doctors.

Bah. This is why Open Setups are best. The aftermath doesn't devolve into retroactive balancing.

[Liger_Zero]

I don't think it would be useful to argue about the setup with the mods here. I don't believe they want to hear feedback on it. I will say personally didn't like it but don't really think the setup caused scum lose in this situation (though it did play a factor in just process of elimination of roles and clears) but if you played this setup more than once it would probably always end in a town win more than 90% of the time it was run.

[Liger_Zero]

Skitter you played exceptionally well, I was really hoping you had gotten apathetic and lurked out. Xtoxm I also underestimated and thought would be easier to manipulate. Was fun playing with you both.

[the worst]

Thanks, Liger. Sorry that you didn't enjoy the setup.

I'm comfortable with feedback and think the suggested tweaks make a lot of sense; just want folks to know that we did the things we did setup-wise for a reason.
I agree this wasn't won mechanically, and that was the comment which irked me.

[skitter30]

Skitter you played exceptionally well, I was really hoping you had gotten apathetic and lurked out. Xtoxm I also underestimated and thought would be easier to manipulate. Was fun playing with you both.

Thanks
Wasnt apathetic, i just tend to be very indecisive and it takes me a while to actually cast a vote that i know could be game-ending, even if i'm p confident that its right

This was my first time in lylo in like months!

[popsofctown]

After looking at the setup as the whole (which required me to go through both mod isos, eugh), I found it pretty questionable.

If I was making tweaks, I would suggest informed modifiers on the scums letting them know there are two fully bulletproof players they need to deal with. If the cornerstone of the balance of this setup is the strongman kills being given to the scum implying that they need to counter town resiliency, it shouldn't do any harm to make that more explicit. If I wanted to discover what the moderator had in store for me more gradually by testing out my powers I'd probably be in a D&D forum right now.

[Flavor Leaf]

I’ll update this to the BT archive soon.

[Flavor Leaf]

BooneyToonz Discussion if you have any questions or thoughts for the BooneyToonz series, or if you’d like to mod a BooneyToonz.

[the worst]

After looking at the setup as the whole (which required me to go through both mod isos, eugh), I found it pretty questionable.

If I was making tweaks, I would suggest informed modifiers on the scums letting them know there are two fully bulletproof players they need to deal with. If the cornerstone of the balance of this setup is the strongman kills being given to the scum implying that they need to counter town resiliency, it shouldn't do any harm to make that more explicit. If I wanted to discover what the moderator had in store for me more gradually by testing out my powers I'd probably be in a D&D forum right now.

I don't mind this feedback at all. thanks.

[Creature]

Being informed about two BPs isn't very enough though. Specially when scum has to first kill immediate PR threats before killing the BPs and the strongmans need to survive long for that.

Still, as you can see, even if scum hit PRs every night, they still can't get rid of them all before LyLo.

[Liger_Zero]

For reference, nearly 3/4 of the town was a power role. So us shooting blindly we would have hit town power role almost every-time. The setup demands mislynching power roles, the role cops messing up actions, us using strongman on bulletproofs (and even then, universal backup could take its spot), you have to also consider we have to prioritize killing the people who can check us or the bulletproofs because and if going for rolecops we had to know for certainty there wasn't some other protective that could stop our kills which we assumed wrongly. Because from our standpoint this game was so slanted that wasn't even out of the realm of possibility. Also don't have a strongman get lynched because otherwise you have players you definitely can never kill.

also I very much regret that I didn't push harder in the night to switch our kill onto skitter like I wanted us to do for night 2. I thought Blake would have been more likely to shoot more town players for us than risk it for us and that her being vigilante was only a small threat for her shooting me and maybe we could have mislynched. Though looking back now, I am not sure I could have pulled that off since every move I made after Titus lynch didn't pan out or was poorly executed.

[the worst]

Yeah definitely. This setup necessitates dayplay but I don't think any BooneyToonz game ever has been role lite.

[Liger_Zero]

I don't think you get the point I am making that we were forced into situations in which we had to go certain routes that left us weaker as a whole. Like when I say "this wasn't really a mechanical win" I am not saying mechanics played no part. The mechanics played an enormous part in who ended up in LYLO and if the game wasn't designed in the way it was, the playerlist at LYLO would have been pretty different, which would have affected the game state more.

We didn't have options to do strategic killings. We had to continually play catchup, and then at the end town got it together and won but everything beforehand says they shouldn't and a large part of why they were able to do it was because of how setup designed forced scum to do certain actions.

Does that make sense? I am not sure I am making that clear. I don't mind that the setup favored town. I mind that the design of this setup was trying to force us to behave in a certain path when we should have had a bit of freedom.

[Liger_Zero]

For instance I wanted to break up the Ausuka/SKitter block, but there was no real way to do that in the game, but I also never had the option to night kill them because I had to get rid of role-cops.

[the worst]

I get the point you're making; this conversation is a rabbit hole. we could go back and forth on this for ever. you guys killed the even night rolecop on an odd night and vice versa; i agreed with your preference to kill skitter earlier in the game and have no idea why the vig had to die when her reads were poor, etc., etc., etc.

there was a lost kill potential from suboptimal kills there.


like i appreciate the point you're making but also need it to be noted that your nightkills were generally not optimal (even outside of the semi-uninformed strongman argument), so the case that it was impossible for you to remove strong dayplay from the game isn't strictly true

i still very much appreciate what you're saying, though. fwiw i strongly prefer setups with less reliance on power roles. booneytoonz games are very consistently far away from that. some critique on this setup is fair but this isn't a situation of "scum played brilliantly and lost due to a setup"; it's "scum played ok in a townsided setup and town won via dayplay". it's harsh, but i need to be honest to respond to your feedback in a meaningful way. i feel like #2237 was more of a cop-out answer than you were looking for.

[Liger_Zero]

I just wanted to ensure you understood what I meant, I didn't think you did at first. Not trying to beat a dead horse here honestly. Just wanted us all on the same page. I appreciate you listening because I was honestly not expecting you to after I saw the initial posts in post game so when you responded to me I didn't want you to take me the wrong way.

[popsofctown]

I wouldn't have played as jestery day 1 as I did if I drew PR, I don't think. So the scum can maybe bear some criticism for adding 1 more power role to the setup than the mods did since "mislynch anybody but the chicken running around with his head cut off" was a pretty reliable algorithm for hitting a PR.

[the worst]

Yeah for sure. Sorry for brushing you off a little before; I figured I'd sound like a downright prick if I came in with the "sub-optimal nightkills" argument if you just needed to let off some steam, didn't totally register that you were looking for a more detailed answer.

I think we are on the same page. I do definitely appreciate the constructive feedback from you some others have provided.

[Xtoxm]

I wouldn't have played as jestery day 1 as I did if I drew PR, I don't think. So the scum can maybe bear some criticism for adding 1 more power role to the setup than the mods did since "mislynch anybody but the chicken running around with his head cut off" was a pretty reliable algorithm for hitting a PR.

so you did that to yourself intentionally? interesting
i have a theory that a vt volunteering for the d1 lynch in these games so the town prs can all get into action would be good for town

[Xtoxm]

I don't think you get the point I am making that we were forced into situations in which we had to go certain routes that left us weaker as a whole. Like when I say "this wasn't really a mechanical win" I am not saying mechanics played no part. The mechanics played an enormous part in who ended up in LYLO and if the game wasn't designed in the way it was, the playerlist at LYLO would have been pretty different, which would have affected the game state more.

We didn't have options to do strategic killings. We had to continually play catchup, and then at the end town got it together and won but everything beforehand says they shouldn't and a large part of why they were able to do it was because of how setup designed forced scum to do certain actions.

Does that make sense? I am not sure I am making that clear. I don't mind that the setup favored town. I mind that the design of this setup was trying to force us to behave in a certain path when we should have had a bit of freedom.

i felt exactly the same way in BTE fwiw. almost every kill was out of necessity. it's a mechanical battle to get yourselves to lylo without the game being solved.
i think you could have delayed/forgone the jesus kill here. his reads were bad, and there were 2 scum he couldnt get a useful result on.
i was kinda surprised that the people who sr me kept dying.

[Asuka]

I wouldn't have played as jestery day 1 as I did if I drew PR, I don't think. So the scum can maybe bear some criticism for adding 1 more power role to the setup than the mods did since "mislynch anybody but the chicken running around with his head cut off" was a pretty reliable algorithm for hitting a PR.

There was only one scum on your wagon, though. You were pretty much exclusively lynched by town.

[Xtoxm]

(although that said, you guys

did

get it to lylo with still a shot at winning, so gj on that)

[Something_Smart]

Scum topic is now open.