Star Wars (Spoilers)

[TwoInAMillion]

My only complaint is that things seem to be moving slower and don't have the same epic feel as the classic and prequel trilogies.

[TwoInAMillion]

i'd argue that the attempt at "epic scale" was one of the critical problems with the prequels, much like Marvel movies. It leads to faceless, characterless battles and what not.

Well, it is space opera.

[TwoInAMillion]

But then what's the point of his arc? Like, be a hero, but don't be a hero for no reason? It's not really clear what we're supposed to take away from it. The message is really murky, which is why you get to the end of the arc and feel like it was pointless. Where does Finn stand at the end of all of this? I have no idea. He just seems confused.

Finn is a much weaker character than Rey imho. He had potential in TFA but didn't really mature in TLJ like he should have.

[TwoInAMillion]

I predict in Episode 9, Rey finds out she is a skywalker, Kylo Ren is converted back to the light side, and a much bigger threat is revealed for Episodes X-XII.

[TwoInAMillion]

Apparently Mark Hamill apologized for criticizing Rian Johnson. I don't know if it's genuine or if Lucasfilm/Disney asked him to or if he wants to stay on good terms with the producers.

[TwoInAMillion]

I predict in Episode 9, Rey finds out she is a skywalker, Kylo Ren is converted back to the light side, and a much bigger threat is revealed for Episodes X-XII.

I think those movies will be entirely new characters, though.

I doubt it, that will be Rian Johnson's new trilogy.

[TwoInAMillion]

I don't want her to be a Skywalker tbh.

Yeah but there needs to be a Skywalker presence somehow.

[TwoInAMillion]

Ben Solo is a Skywalker.

True, but theres no drama with just one person.

[TwoInAMillion]

Plenty of drama.

How? Family drama inherently requires more than one person involved.

[TwoInAMillion]

No more family

That's like, the essence of Star Wars/space opera.

[TwoInAMillion]

Star wars expands past that.

It's still space opera.

[TwoInAMillion]

Star wars expands past that.

It's still space opera.

Yes genre must act as limitation on storytelling not a way to enhance it

That's like having a western that plays as a New York City romantic comedy.

[TwoInAMillion]

Family doesn't end in blood.

Who said anything about blood? Drama means the focus of the plot centers around related characters.

[TwoInAMillion]

You guys are thinking way too much about this. It's called suspension of disbelief.

[TwoInAMillion]

i rank ROTS higher than ROTJ. I feel it had a more serious tone and the characterization and writing was better. It seperated itself from its prequel predecessors while ROTJ was a step down from ANH and TESB.

[TwoInAMillion]

I liked rogue one. Not an above average star wars movie, but still plenty enjoyable.

[TwoInAMillion]

There are also people who sheep their opinions aka the prequels.

[TwoInAMillion]

[TwoInAMillion]

I think some people are just a little confused because Han was mostly the same, but Luke wasn't. When you get something you don't expect it makes some people uncomfortable. But the fact is Star Wars is going in a new direction and people just need to deal with it.

[TwoInAMillion]

EU was mostly about the classic characters, the movies are going to be less and less that way.

[TwoInAMillion]

It's also quite possible that there will be some setup for X-XII which could be interesting.

[TwoInAMillion]

It's also quite possible that there will be some setup for X-XII which could be interesting.

The next trilogy is supposed to be unrelated to literally everything

No that is Rian Johnson's trilogy which is different from X-XII.

[TwoInAMillion]

Wait wat

https://www.usatoday.com/story/life/mov ... 850180001/

[TwoInAMillion]

That’s not saying there will be an X through XII

No but it's not saying there won't be. And with TLJ at $1B globally already it would be silly for there not to be.

[TwoInAMillion]

My point is that for all intents and purposes the likely format will be for there to be "saga" films alternating with Johnson films every year.


2021: Episode X
2022: Johnson film 1
2023: Episode XI
2024: Johnson film 2
2025: Episode XII
2026: Johnson film 3

[TwoInAMillion]

Space doesn't instantly kill you.

I did a bit of research and you're right. She still wouldn't have lasted that long, though, much less stayed conscious and saved herself with powers she'd never used before.

Rey had never used the jedi mind trick in TFA but she did it anyways. Leia is the daughter of The Chosen One and The Force can do amazing things so it's not that unbelievable.

[TwoInAMillion]

Was thinking tonight about how the scope of the series is kind of fucked.
The way it's set up, we basically don't really have any kind of overall context for the state of the rest of the galaxy.
We don't really know what the Republic is, who's leading it, why we should care about it, why it has a rebel force operating within it rather than just having Leia be a part of the Republic fleet.

Why is the First Order so powerful at the start of the first movie? Like, realistically, the Republic hears about the First Order shooting up, you just had Palpatine. Like. So recently. It's such a stretch to think that the Republic would be apathetic that quickly. How do you let them get that out of control and not just be like "fuck these idiots we're killing them, we're not doing this shit again".

I get that there's Imperial infrastructure, but it's kind of hard to believe that they were able to create a weapon like that in such a short period of time after being defeated, all without anyone finding out until after the entire Republic is destroyed.

Just some kind of context on what the hell happened would help explain a lot, primarily because it makes the entire focus of the trilogy on the Empire and the Rebellion again and we have absolutely no scope on anything else going on. I'm not really sure how you do this without it being dry for audiences, but it would definitely help if Disney wasn't so invested on requiring that these movies try to be engaging for kids 100% of the time.

When Leia calls for the rebel's allies and no one answers, it just kind of rings hollow because you would think people would really want to deal with the First Order when they literally just murdered a bunch of planets. Or at least just explain why no one would come or establish who those allies are and why they might not come.

More backstory for Snoke, probably in terms of how does Luke know him. If you'd had Snoke be some kind of hermity old teacher helper at Luke's academy who turned out to be a Sith Lord in disguise or at least establish what it even means for Snoke to have reached out to Kylo, you just get a much clearer picture of what happened and maybe actually have some kind of clue about what to think of him when he actually gets confronted. They already did flashbacks, don't think it would be that much of a stretch to flashback and help us understand one of the most important parts of the Kylo/Ren/Luke relationship, which is literally the most important relationship in the movie.

Cut Canto Byte and flesh out what's going on better and TLJ feels a lot more sturdy to me.

[I swear, I actually like both of these movies too, lol
this is also word vomit, don't read it]

Why is the first order so powerful? Think about it. Han is back to smuggling and Luke is hiding out on a backwater planet. Kylo Ren is the most powerful force user in the galaxy.

We will probably get more Snoke backstory in IX.

It's a good thing we don't have a lot of backstory on the Resistance and First Order, because then it would be like TPM.

[TwoInAMillion]

Space Opera focuses on single people being huge influences on the galaxy at large, even if it's not "realistic". It's just the way it is.

[TwoInAMillion]

Space Opera focuses on single people being huge influences on the galaxy at large, even if it's not "realistic". It's just the way it is.

space opera can still have worldbuilding

It can, but it's more focused on interpersonal relationships.

[TwoInAMillion]

I think that's part of the reason it's not as prevelant in the sequel trilogy. Since more attention was placed on it previously, it's not as necessary here. We take a lot of it for granted. As star wars viewers, we know that the fate of the resistance and the first order is going to rest on what happens with Rey and Kylo Ren, and I think most are okay with that.

[TwoInAMillion]

I'm sure Abrams was consulted as well. I don't see it as any different from Kershner, Kasdan and Lucas for Episode V.

[TwoInAMillion]

John Williams confirmed for EP 9. Could be his final star wars score.

[TwoInAMillion]

TLJ is on pace to earn about $600M-$700M less than TFA.

[TwoInAMillion]

Yep, Star Wars fatigue set in at some point, I think.

[TwoInAMillion]

I kind of agree. I think it will be profitable but not a hit.

[TwoInAMillion]

yes. I predict $750M globally.

[TwoInAMillion]

It'll probably be a lot like Rogue One, good, but a bit of a clusterfuck.

[TwoInAMillion]

I liked Rogue One, not as good as TFA or TLJ but still good.

[TwoInAMillion]

They need to make a Gonk movie.

[TwoInAMillion]

TFA is not a rehash of new hope ffs

nothing tilts me more

New superweapon that's shaped like a planet.
First Order instead of the empire
New desert planet
Protagonist is a nobody.
Innocent civilians are killed.
Droid convinces protagonist to stay with her.
Antagonists pursue droid.
Protaganist discovers force powers.
Bar filled with strange aliens.
Father figure is killed.
Rebels destroy superweapon at end.

This isn't a rehash?

[TwoInAMillion]

I feel like Episode IX won't have the same "end of story" feeling as Return of the Jedi because of the likelyhood of the X-XII trilogy.

[TwoInAMillion]

Whose opinion is this?

[TwoInAMillion]

Disney's new cash cow is the best summary you can give Star Wars. It'll be bled dry until everyone forgets or hates it and tossed into the bin. It's unfortunate because I've been a huge fan of the series since I was a kid.
The Last Jedi is probably the last Star Wars movie I'll ever watch. It was terrible. Poorly written from start to finish which inadvertently retconned a bunch of established canon, even from the Force Awakens.

To me it was the best of the post ROTJ movies. It went in a completely unexpected direction that still makes sense for the future of the series and I appreciate that.

Rei is a completely unlikeable character. She's a Mary Sue that's great at everything, could do no wrong. Luke wasn't the best character introduced but he had a lot of character development, and we saw him grow as a person whereas Rei is just thrown in and is immediately put into Godhood. One of the most bland and boring characters.

She's definately not great at everything. She has obvious relationship issues where she longs for her parents even though they abandoned her. She wants Luke as her mentor and he won't mentor her. She's probably in love with Finn, someone she will never have. And her Resistance is on the verge of collapse. So I'd say she has plenty of faults.

I don't see the purpose of Finn other than Disney saying "Hey! We can be diverse!"

That's typical of someone that is probably a white male. For years Star Wars was criticized for not being diverse enough and when they have a black man and white woman as their leads they are criticized for being too diverse. This is just a case of people wanting to find something to compalain about.

Poe I kind of like as a character but there's also just no development with him. I thought they were going to do something with him in The Last Jedi when random purple hair girl had a dumb plan that was going to get everyone killed from start to finish, but nope...Leia thought it was a great plan that decimates their only remaining fleet.

He's not a main character. He's kind of like the Chewbacca of the original series or the Jar Jar of the prequel series. Not every character is going to have the same amount of development.

[img]Snoke%20was%20a%20missed%20opportunity.%20Showed%20off%20amazing%20power%20only%20to%20be%20killed%20off%20immediately%20after%20by%20the%20dumbest%20way%20possible.[/img]

Oh yeah because Emperor Palpatine had so much development in the original trilogy. It was only in the prequels that we saw more development. They wanted to focus on Kylo Ren and I feel that's a good decision.

[img]Ren%20is%20a%20lesser%20version%20of%20Anakin%20in%20the%20prequels.%20Because%20we%20need%20more%20of%20that.[/img]

Not even remotely the same. We new what was happening to Anakin. We don't know what's going to happen to Rey in Episode IX.

And Luke's character was tarnished. He redeems the 2nd most evil person in the galaxy that has massacred millions if not billions of people, never giving up on him, only to see a slim future of what might be with Ren and he decides to murder his nephew in his sleep only to have second thoughts mere moments before delivering the blow? What...WHY?!

Because you shouldn't kill someone because of what they might do in the future. It's the classic should you kill Hitler when he is a baby question. Luke was taking the high road and it bit him in the butt but at least he has morals.


[img]Thanks%20Disney.%20George%20Lucas%20wasn't%20the%20best,%20but%20I'll%20take%20him%20over%20this%20travesty.[/img]

The prequels weren't bad but the sequels are better.

[TwoInAMillion]

The ewoks are a vietnam analogy where the scrappy underdogs overwhelm a superior force through wits and knowledge of the terrain. This happened in real life so I'm not sure it is duex ex machina.

[TwoInAMillion]

Star Wars is way deeper than that come on!

[TwoInAMillion]

George Lucas was drafted for Vietnam but did not deploy due to diabetes so I think it heavily influenced him.

[TwoInAMillion]

It would also mean he was writing a film to celebrate the North Vietnamese. Unpopularity of the war aside, that seems unlikely.

He has a Buddhist political philosophy. I wouldn't be suprised for him to put Anti-American Colonialism into his movies.

[TwoInAMillion]

The death of Americana.

[TwoInAMillion]

The Force is purposely ambigous. It's supposed to be like an all encompassing religion that anyone of any religion can relate to. And Jedi didn't use it in the OT because they were being hunted down and slaughtered for being Jedi.

[TwoInAMillion]

They will surprise us and not resolve everything in Episode IX and build up for Episode X.

[TwoInAMillion]

Plus Kylo Ren can lie about it *gasp*!

If you think JJ Abrams or Rian Johnson have any originality to them, or the capability to take a risk, you'd be dead wrong.

Last Jedi whether you like it or not is easily the riskiest star wars film ever made by a HUGE margin.

Agreed. If they had made TESB 2.0 fans would have been upset so either way there was no pleasing fans so the writers did the right thing to move the franchise forward.

[TwoInAMillion]

I mean, the "who were Rey's parents?" is a pretty boring storyline to me. Like why does it matter? I had just assumed that the "Rey's parents were nobodies" was the Disney bubblegum toeline of "HEY KIDS, U CAN B ANYTHING YOU WANT!" I'd also thought about Rey+Ren being brother and sister making her Han and Leia's daughter.

That would be extremely boring and an awful choice.

What exactly is wrong with them being noone important?

Because.. then, why bring it up?

Because it obviously bothers Rey.

[TwoInAMillion]

I mean, the "who were Rey's parents?" is a pretty boring storyline to me. Like why does it matter? I had just assumed that the "Rey's parents were nobodies" was the Disney bubblegum toeline of "HEY KIDS, U CAN B ANYTHING YOU WANT!" I'd also thought about Rey+Ren being brother and sister making her Han and Leia's daughter.

That would be extremely boring and an awful choice.

What exactly is wrong with them being noone important?

Because.. then, why bring it up?

Because it obviously bothers Rey.

Right, but Rey isn't a real person. This is fiction. Why bring up a mystery only to have it not pan out to something that advances the story or deepens a character?

You're making assumptions, you haven't seen episode IX yet.

[TwoInAMillion]

I think the point is that the PT and OT established that your parental lineage is an extremely important thing. Society has sort of implicated that if you are adopted or orphaned you shouldn't care who your biological parents are and that what you have should be enough, but Star Wars has created a strong counterargument to this through Luke and Anakins stories. Rey's story is currently not resolved so I don't think you can argue that the resolution is unfufilling.

[TwoInAMillion]

I think Kylo will try to leverage his genetics against Rey in Ep IX.

[TwoInAMillion]

Luke had a good reason for being Jaded, he is almost personally responsible for the rise of Kylo Ren and The First Order. Obi Wan thought he could do better than Yoda and he thought he could do better than Obi Wan and he couldn't. That sort of leads to the idea of fate over personal choice. Maybe it's just fated that there will be another evil to rise up. I mean it's kind of childish and irresponsible like the person that blames God when everything goes wrong. But Jaded Luke is more interesting than ROTJ 2.0 Luke.

[TwoInAMillion]

Will Solo: A Star Wars Story have a $200M opening weekend? I'm guessing yes, even with the bad publicity.

[TwoInAMillion]

Yeah, the reshoots and director replacements aren't a good sign, but most people will see Star Wars no matter what.

[TwoInAMillion]

It's been pretty highly advertised in the last few months.

[TwoInAMillion]

If you're any kind of star wars fan it will appear on your yahoo wall at the least.

[TwoInAMillion]

what search engine do you use?

[TwoInAMillion]

Same diff.

[TwoInAMillion]

Pretty much any Star Wars movie, or any sci fi movie for that matter, can be picked apart. It's called suspension of disbelief. Star Wars is about having a good time for 2 hours, not about having an academy award winning screenplay. A lot of the OT fans don't like TLJ because it's different from the other movies, unlike TFA which was a lot like the OT. They just need to get over it.

[TwoInAMillion]

Pretty much any Star Wars movie, or any sci fi movie for that matter, can be picked apart. It's called suspension of disbelief. Star Wars is about having a good time for 2 hours, not about having an academy award winning screenplay. A lot of the OT fans don't like TLJ because it's different from the other movies, unlike TFA which was a lot like the OT. They just need to get over it.

Ok...So what films exactly can you break down on why they don't work? Interstellar for example. Amazing all around sci-fi film. The music, the plot, the characters, this was a great sci fi film. I'm not asking for something arbitrary like "There's no such thing as space wizards!" Point out some glaring plot holes in the movie(s), or answer the ones I already pointed out in the above post.

Star Wars - Space samurai mixed with a wild west basically, my belief is already suspended but it's not going to be outright broken if the plot is inconsistent and broken and it doesn't follow it's already established rules. I can't immerse myself in a film like The Last Jedi when it's blatantly taking a dump on every film before it, including The Force Awakens. Does that make sense on why I hate this movie?



I don't get it, I expressed why I didn't like this film, and broke it down point by point as to why it doesn't make sense or why it makes it bad. You originally defended it by trying to point out why so and so is good, but the moment I show you these glaring plot holes or overall weak characters it's "well, every Star Wars and sci fi movie can be picked apart." Uh...? The movie is open to criticism. The Black Panther is open to criticism. Every movie should rightfully be criticized on how or why they are bad films or what the films are specifically lacking in. The Last Jedi had a decent soundtrack. Not anything I'd write home to mom about, but the musical scores were solid. The visuals were great, best in the series. And that's pretty much where my praise of it ends.

So no, I'm not going to get over it. As I said, I'm a fan of Star Wars, but I'm not going to blindly defend terrible films just because the name "Star Wars" is in it or because Disney took the reigns on the franchise.

I respect your opinion, I just think you are overthinking it, suffering from star wars fatigue maybe, and are a bit over nostalgic of the OT. I try to understand that Disney bought the rights to star wars to make money and that the new movies are not going to be the same as the old movies. Star Wars is not going to be like Interstellar most of the time, it's a completely different genre.

[TwoInAMillion]

For the record, I do think there are to many Star Wars films coming out and that it's probably diluting the quality of the movies. I don't think TLJ was one of those movies though.TLJ was better than any movie besides ANH and TESB imho.

[TwoInAMillion]

It goes like this.

Episode VII: Say how awesome EP IV-VI is and how awful I-III is.
Episode VIII: Crap all over Ep VII.
Episode IX: Firmly end a new great trilogy and hopefully start a new trilogy

I'm fine with this, I think Johnson probably thought he was being subtle in how he was handling TFA and didn't realize Star Wars fans would see through what he was doing, but I see nothing wrong with this approch. It sets up Ep X-XII nicely, which is the main point.

[TwoInAMillion]

How would you plan on accomplishing that? Recast Rey and Finn as 80 year olds in Episode X?

[TwoInAMillion]

The Skywalker saga is what drives star wars. You could have spinoffs only for awhile but after awhile you would eventually need to go back to the main story.

[TwoInAMillion]

They're not gone though. With Luke being Vader's son and Luke being the galaxy's savior that has pretty much implied that lineage is as important as anything in the star wars universe and can't just be ignored. The Skywalker line won't just go away.