So I’m getting banned...

[McMenno]

kk only wants trans kids to feel unwelcome not racist kids

[Amrun]

I respond to Persivul because he is so fundamentally and harmfully wrong that I feel the act of not responding and tacitly condoning his behavior puts me at fault as well.

Not picking lost or pointless fights isn't condoning it, its just not picking a fight you know you won't win.

To someone reading it who may be struggling with that identity, it can be seen as tacitly condoning it.

The suicide rate in the LGBTQ+ is higher than in any other and it’s well documented that adult and community support and acceptance reduces suicide in this demographic.

https://www.thetrevorproject.org/2019/0 ... btq-youth/

Idk

Honestly, I think that these issues are complex enough that even just understanding the other side is productive in the long run even if it's not necessarily a "correct" viewpoint. At the very least, this is a very significant reason for how I've been able to handle people who are bigoted towards me and others close to me.

Just shouting down the opposition isn't really helping anything, and to people who might not have thought of such things before, it really is offputting. This is exactly how I stopped going to the discussion side of the forums back in 2013 before I realized I was within the grouping myself. I'd never put much thought to either side at that time and my only real opinion reading through discussions like this is that those resorting to shouting and aggression immediately were kind of hard to take seriously.

I’m not condoning yelling etc. I think there are ways better to approach it than others. Just wanted to let you know that the belief that doing nothing is harmful is not unfounded. You don’t need to share that belief but I thought it would help you to understand why others might hold that belief, in the interest of communication etc that you were espousing.

[Firebringer]

Am I the only one that gets the impression that this entire debate is more a communication problem than a moral problem

That's like every debate I see with massively diverging views

Oh good I'm not crazy then!

Welll.....

I wouldn’t go that far

But in this instance you are sand

[Firebringer]

Sane*

[Psyche]

it was totally a moral problem

[popsofctown]

imagine we could also just breed cows that are cold and unfeeling

Artificial meat is kind of essentially this, it is cool that the outlook for that technology looks really good right now.

[Creature]

I'm alright with artificial meat if it isn't the same shit as the plant-based meats I see around.

I don't see my diet ever being centered around soy.

[Persivul]

Would I prefer that people not be gay because god? That's a weird way of wording it, but if I'm getting the gist right, that fits me reasonably well.

And that in no way says that I don't think they don't have a right to exist.

Additionally you've repeatedly said you disagree with homosexuality. Actually what else can that possibly mean?

Just what it says. It in no way says that I don't have a right to exist.

I similarly disagree with heterosexual adulterers. Similarly, it doesn't mean that I don't think they have a right to exist.

Thieves, heroin users, drunk drivers, liars...the list goes on, and includes plenty of things I'm guilty of myself. I disagree with those things, but it doesn't mean I tihhnk they don't have a right to exist.

You're reading in what you want, because you're the type who enjoys being a martyr.

[Persivul]

I assume he's thinking of something like sexual abstinence

No, I don't require my friend to be abstinent. Gays can do as they please. I think it's sin. So what? I'm live and let live. Plenty of gays are as well. They don't all want to think that a whole lot of people hate them and want them wiped out.

[Creature]

Egh, not gonna compare gays to thieves and drug users

I'm ducking out

[panthaleon]

ITT Persivul compares consensual love between two gay men to drug use, theft, illegal activity, and adultury. Neat. He also appears to think that gays have collectively deluded themselves into thinking homophobes exist?

I'll call up my gay buddy who was found beaten, lit on fire, and left for dead on the side of a train track and tell him to stop trying to play the victim.

So guys how do you deprogram this? Or am I just supposed to grit my teeth until the boomers all die off?

PEDIT:
"I am going to duck out" this is my surprised face

[Amrun]

Would I prefer that people not be gay because god? That's a weird way of wording it, but if I'm getting the gist right, that fits me reasonably well.

And that in no way says that I don't think they don't have a right to exist.

Additionally you've repeatedly said you disagree with homosexuality. Actually what else can that possibly mean?

Just what it says. It in no way says that I don't have a right to exist.

I similarly disagree with heterosexual adulterers. Similarly, it doesn't mean that I don't think they have a right to exist.

Thieves, heroin users, drunk drivers, liars...the list goes on, and includes plenty of things I'm guilty of myself. I disagree with those things, but it doesn't mean I tihhnk they don't have a right to exist.

You're reading in what you want, because you're the type who enjoys being a martyr.

Is this a real, sincere belief? I laughed when I read it - I thought it was a troll.

[Kublai Khan]

ITT Persivul compares consensual love between two gay men to drug use, theft, illegal activity, and adultury. Neat. He also appears to think that gays have collectively deluded themselves into thinking homophobes exist?

I'll call up my gay buddy who was found beaten, lit on fire, and left for dead on the side of a train track and tell him to stop trying to play the victim.

So guys how do you deprogram this? Or am I just supposed to grit my teeth until the boomers all die off?

Well, if you want to deprogram him, start by taking a big step back and not arguing while emotional. Bringing up a personal anecdote that he has no connection with is not going to convince him of anything.

Second, read his actual arguments and engage him instead of appealing to an invisible audience. He acknowledged that gay people have the right to exist. That sounds like it should be a baseline obvious given thing, but many conservatives don't acknowledge even that. That's a point of agreement. Build on it.

Third, decide what your overall goal is. Persivul isn't violently assaulting gays, he's not trying to deny them rights, he's apparently friends with one... It seems like he's pretty tolerant of gay people despite the fact that he doesn't particularly care for it himself. So, what is your end goal in engaging with Persivul? To get him to love the very concept of gay love?

[Persivul]

ITT Persivul compares consensual love between two gay men to drug use, theft, illegal activity, and adultury. Neat. He also appears to think that gays have collectively deluded themselves into thinking homophobes exist?

What sorts of things are Christians comparable to in your opinion? If you're honest, I'll bet it's worse than anything I've said.

[Firebringer]

I'll call up my gay buddy who was found beaten, lit on fire, and left for dead on the side of a train track and tell him to stop trying to play the victim.

jesus fucking Christ. Who the fuck are you arguing with?

[Psyche]

Third, decide what your overall goal is. Persivul isn't violently assaulting gays, he's not trying to deny them rights, he's apparently friends with one... It seems like he's pretty tolerant of gay people despite the fact that he doesn't particularly care for it himself. So, what is your end goal in engaging with Persivul? To get him to love the very concept of gay love?

obviously im trying to hook up with him

[panthaleon]

Christians? They are occasionally deluded, mostly harmless individuals that collectively leverage the societal control they wield to harm some of the most vulnerable groups in American society, choosing to disregard any tangible consequences by either attributing it to God's will or framing things in the context of an uncertain afterlife.

KK I don't quite understand your point except insofar as you seem to think as long as Persivul isn't literally calling me a fag, whatever else he does can't be that bad in comparison.

First: telling a person who is being insulted to not be emotional about it is kinda fucked up. Trolls like Persivul say things knowing it causes emotional reactions, and an emotional reaction is not automatically an invalid one. Persivul is calm because he is doing the abuse and doing the attacking. He gets the luxury of being calm.

Second: I will not throw Persivul a bone for having the baseline decency to say that gay people have the right to exist. That is the barest minimum of what he can do, and as a hot take I expect that from everyone. He has no real arguments or appeals, except for his interpretation of a several time translated religious text from 2,000 years ago by which I do not live my life.

Third: I don't believe I am going to convince Persivul of anything. He is a 50 some odd year old man and if he hasn't figured out how to be less of a homophobe, some random person on the internet isn't going to change him. I am going to continue engaging him because the more he shares how he really feels, the more likely he is to feel some consequences for such a toxic belief. And if he doesn't get banned, maybe someone conservative-adjacent will see just how bad the ideology looks.

[panthaleon]

I'll call up my gay buddy who was found beaten, lit on fire, and left for dead on the side of a train track and tell him to stop trying to play the victim.

jesus fucking Christ. Who the fuck are you arguing with?

You're reading in what you want, because you're the type who enjoys being a martyr.

They don't all want to think that a whole lot of people hate them and want them wiped out.

I am concerned Persivul is laboring under some delusion that things aren't that bad for queer folks, so I thought maybe a helpful anecdote might point out why some gay people "think that a whole lot of people hate them and want them wiped out."

[Firebringer]

Amrun has really bad posts in this thread.

[Creature]

This thread has become half "guess what Persivul actually thinks" and half veganarchism

[Kublai Khan]

KK I don't quite understand your point except insofar as you seem to think as long as Persivul isn't literally calling me a fag, whatever else he does can't be that bad in comparison.

I mean you specifically asked, so I answered.

If you think Persivul is a troll, then you're losing by getting riled up and continuing to respond.

If you think there's a possibility that Persivul isn't a troll, then you're losing by straw-manning his arguments.

I ask again, what are you gaining by continue to engage with this?

[panthaleon]

Rule One of being a conservative troll is no never commit to a substansive position. The longer you dance around what you mean, the more you force your opponents to try to guess what you think. You then complain about them misrepresenting your position and claim victim.

Like god for all my 'being too aggressive' at least people understand exactly what my thoughts are.

[Firebringer]

if he is a conservative troll you are letting him win by arguing with him and getting mad about it.

btw don't think he is a conservative troll but yeah, ill echo what KK said. You should at least stop straw manning him.

[panthaleon]

KK I don't quite understand your point except insofar as you seem to think as long as Persivul isn't literally calling me a fag, whatever else he does can't be that bad in comparison.

I mean you specifically asked, so I answered.

If you think Persivul is a troll, then you're losing by getting riled up and continuing to respond.

If you think there's a possibility that Persivul isn't a troll, then you're losing by straw-manning his arguments.

I ask again, what are you gaining by continue to engage with this?

Just because someone is trolling to get an emotional response doesn't mean that their actions are not harmful. I read a lot of bullshit growing up, and I am not the only gay kid who experienced that. For someone who is vulnerable and in pain, seeing Persivul compare being gay to being a heroin addict is damaging. Especially when it is just left there with no one acting to stop that.

I would like to see Persivul stop posting his shit hellscape takes, or get banned for them. If he suddenly discovers a heart, that would be a cool side effect.

PEDIT:
Why do people think that the real bad guy is the one responding to people saying hateful nonsense

[Firebringer]

probably because the only one who sounds truly hateful in this conversation is you. Persivul has an unpopular opinion but doesn't appear to actually hate anyone. Not approving of homosexuality doesn't equal "I hate all gays" or "I want all gays to die" or "gays don't have the right to exist" or whatever you want to insert.

I feel like that has been explored so much that you should get that.