So I’m getting banned...

[panthaleon]

Anyone who holds a position of 'love the sinner, hate the sin' but believes themselves not to be homophobic is delusional. And homophobic.

But yeah it sure is a shame that the moderators don't let Conservatives just shit on gay people all the want. What a bunch of liberal cucks.

[panthaleon]

A Marxist reading of Mafia would probably commend the fact that all townies regardless of their role have equal access to the means of forming a wagon.

[panthaleon]

That's gotta be so stressful though

Unless the worldview is something, like, thinking Andrew Lloyd Webber has any value as a composer. Even then I would struggle.

[panthaleon]

We can just rehash the Protestant v Catholic fight. That is a fun use of time. It's like hot potato but with problematic behaviors well known as cultural touchstones.

[panthaleon]

Wait I googled Humanism and there's apparently Posthumanism. This speaks to me.

[panthaleon]

People are welcome to be homophobic asses in their private time, but I don't think it's unreasonable for them to be asked to not spread it around.

PEDIT:
Hot take -- homophobes are bad people imo

[panthaleon]

Nah I'm just Portland trash. I get a sniff of anything that resembles irony or postmodernism and I get very excited.

[panthaleon]

Psyche why are you so intolerant. I don't mean anything personal when I say that your love is inferior and immoral. Everyone has bad, self-destructive impulses that society deigns to allow them to indulge in.

(I'm I conservative-ing right?)

[panthaleon]

I mean gay people can't imagine what it's like to be persecuted as a Christian in today's society :/

[panthaleon]

It is 2019. If a person cannot be bothered to address the ideas they were taught, it's not really fair to demand queer folks take time and stress to deprogram them.

If James Brafin wants to know why he received such hostility for saying gay sex is inherently immoral, he has an entire internet of information. If someone has access to that information and chooses to instead stick with their ideas, they are a bad person. Maybe someday they can stop being a bad person and be a good person. But a good person does not behave that way.

[panthaleon]

> yay frigging me, poking the angry pants lion. why does having a conscience and moral fiber feel like drawing the short straw so often

That was mean

But like whatever I don't have the energy for this. I'm sure some tolerant, rational person will reach out and properly deprogram people. In the meantime I'll just continue being called a fag on the streets and remind myself it's not their fault that they're like that, and they're the real victims of society.

[panthaleon]

I do not need to vent. My issue is not that I have no outlet for frustration. I shout down bigotry with no tolerance, because I believe that if I can help one closeted kid, one self-hating gay realize that they have value as a person and that the folks who would try to belittle them do not, I will have helped them. I would have loved to see anyone take a stand when I was growing up. Maybe I would feel better about myself.

But instead apparently this backfires because people feel an obligation to defend the Persivuls and the James Brafins of the world, and I do not have the energy to deal being told that I am radicalizing them by being angrier than I should be. The OP here was whining because he couldn't publicly talk about how immoral gay sex was or compare gay marriage to unrestricted access to cigarettes. But the issue kinda is that he can and that's just fine and something gay people have to accept with a smiling face so as not to scare of the people who might be undecided about the humanity of queer folks. It is exhausting.

But if people are just going to round me up some angry, hateful problem, that's not really something I can handle.

PEDIT:
All that stuff that Psyche has said, but with his words since he says stuff calmly and people prefer to listen to calm people.

[panthaleon]

To give myself a defense, it's not like I'm following anyone into a game. I have kept my political views firmly in the Trump thread, the politics thread, and the Trump Thread: Redux.

Though I think at the end of the day people might misunderstand my intentions as changing the minds of homophobic folks, but that's never really been my goal. Like I have never really been into radical forgiveness or the deprogramming vibe for those people who struggle to see past their religious upbringing to whatever the queer experience is. There are more patient people than me who do great work. I recognize the extent to what I can do is point out when things are not ok. I then pray that someone is confused as to why something is Not Okay and why this person has responded with such hostility. Or at the very least they stop whatever the behavior is, which is good enough.

Like I don't really think I'm unreasonable, but what do I know. But like I don't really think I can turn off the instinct to react with hostility to something so old-school homophobic as 'I disagree with the lifestyle' or 'the act is immoral.'

[panthaleon]

EFFIE TRINKET MY KWEEN

(There will be a Hunger Games themed LSG soonish and i am generating hype)

[panthaleon]

Vegan is prob more moral or whatever, but I really like milk, cheese, and chicken. I am a monster.

[panthaleon]

It's k I've long since come to terms with the fact that I probably end up in hell. Also that future generations will judge me harshly for everything I am doing now. I think it's healthier to live this way.

[panthaleon]

But Vonflare, like, what is your point?

PEDIT:
Aren't there entire fields of study devoted to the question of what ethics even is?

[panthaleon]

You can join the club, Cheetory. We have jackets.

[panthaleon]

I believe that if I can help one closeted kid, one self-hating gay realize that they have value as a person and that the folks who would try to belittle them do not, I will have helped them.

You'd help them more if you helped them realize that they have value as a person...and so do the folks who would try to belittle them.

Objectively nah. I am very comfortable with the position that people who put down gay folks are without value

But, like, continue the exhausted argument about how the Good Ones are the gays that don't make you have to think about that they're gay or whatever.

[panthaleon]

Nah

[panthaleon]

Careful psyche. You'll get into the straight people who 'keep that part of their lives to themselves.'

[panthaleon]

I feel sorry for whatever circumstances landed this poor dude in Persivul's orbit.

Also hey @mods can we get a ruling on whether it's ok for people to keep saying they 'disagree with being gay.' It's like actually a really fucked up thing to say.

[panthaleon]

The depth of their commitment is so irrelevant. You don't get half points for only wanting to deport people of color instead of exterminating them.

[panthaleon]

I desperately hope that being against white nationalists isn't so controversial black-and-white stance I'm taking.

I also feel like there's some fundamental misunderstanding that this is somehow the only way I communicate? Really I save this particular rhetorical style for Persivul and his ilk.

PEDIT:
Milo Yiannapolis is a right wing provaceteur paid to bring white nationalism into the spotlight. Because he's a troll and a terrible example of anything

[panthaleon]

Persivul do you believe a person is tolerant if they vote to make/keep gay marriage illegal, but fail to pass the legislation to do so?

[panthaleon]

I do not believe someone like Persivul has the intellectual honesty or capacity to be changed from the horror show that are his political views. So instead of meekly standing by when he says something like "believing mixed race people shouldn't exist is just a difference of opinion" in order to avoid offending people who might be undecided on the humanity of mixed race people, I believe there is a moral imperative to get them to stop their damaging behavior.

Which, like, related, Persivul what the fuck

[panthaleon]

do you type all this with a straight face persival

No, more of a troubled face. I don't think demonization of opponents is good for society.

Have you tried not being a demon

[panthaleon]

I wonder if Persivul sincerely believes all white people deep down would prefer to live apart from black people, or that all straight people are made uncomfortable by gay people

[panthaleon]

I mean they didn't ban James Brafin did they?

[panthaleon]

Oh My God Persivul found something I've posted at him that he feels like he can easily take down through Cold Hard Logic and is now willing to acknowledge it

Nice

PEDIT:
Why is it wrong to believe some things like "Mixed race/gay people are humans worth the same respect as anyone else" can be black and white?

[panthaleon]

Yeah we can discuss that, but that doesn't really appear to be the level at which Persivul is approaching the discourse.

[panthaleon]

Yeah we can discuss that, but that doesn't really appear to be the level at which Persivul is approaching the discourse.

We were discussing if people with minor prejudices are trash (or not and until what point) regardless of their other qualities, right?

I mean sure, but at this point Persivul seems to have stepped a bit beyond that right? So maybe whatever thing Persivul is talking takes precedence because it is a much worse and more toxic take?

I would talk to him about it, but apparently he and I are on the outs now

[panthaleon]

Ank, you might be missing the step where the responses are about how "disapproving off homosexuality" is in itself intolerant and fucked up, and good "it's their personality" is bullshit conservative dogwhistling.

[panthaleon]

Being calm is not the same thing as being civil. Just because Persivul isn't swearing doesn't make what he's saying any less awful to experience. But then a cornerstone of the gay experience is being told to smile at someone when they say they disagree about your existence.

Which, for those playing at home, is an opinion Persivul has and is ok just saying.

EDIT: I hate auto correct

[panthaleon]

This is not misrepresentation. You have stated you believe gay people should not exist. The underlying implications are that my existence is immoral, faulty, and less than that of my heterosexual counterparts. Your sentiment exists only to denigrate gay people, and is the same rhetoric used to restrict rights, promote inequality, and in some places justify their execution.

Your rhetoric is not harmless just because you're to self involved to think about what weird opinions you feel obligated to share.

PEDIT:
I respond to Persivul because he is so fundamentally and harmfully wrong that I feel the act of not responding and tacitly condoning his behavior puts me at fault as well.

[panthaleon]

Would I prefer that people not be gay because god? That's a weird way of wording it, but if I'm getting the gist right, that fits me reasonably well.

Additionally you've repeatedly said you disagree with homosexuality. Actually what else can that possibly mean?

PEDIT:
I would have a more charitable way of responding to that sentiment if it wasn't a flagrant long-standing dog whistle. I made a whole thread to answer that nonsense. If you ask the, I'll be happy to answer

PPEDIT:
Hard disagree. If you see something that is bad, you speak up. Full stop.

PPPEDIT:
I mean a side effect is that the more Persivul talks, the more likely he is to be banned and I will count that as a win too.

[panthaleon]

Amrun hitting the point I was dancing around ty.

Creature that's what they like to say, but they never take the next step in realizing how fundamentally unreasonable it is to ask a population to be celibate for your peace of mind.

[panthaleon]

Counterpoint: the abuse and denigration of queer people isn't novel, and coddling people who are just grappling with this reality for the first time does a disservice to those actively suffering. Likely genuinely it is 2019. If the equality and humanity of queer folks is a novel consult, these are people who either need to ship up or shut up.

We would not tolerate someone who actively discussed how the role on a women is subservient to her husband, no matter how new the concept of women's liberation was to them.

[panthaleon]

When someone calls me a faggot, it is cold comfort to think about how they probably just haven't understood the queer experience enough to understand how damaging that is

[panthaleon]

ITT Persivul compares consensual love between two gay men to drug use, theft, illegal activity, and adultury. Neat. He also appears to think that gays have collectively deluded themselves into thinking homophobes exist?

I'll call up my gay buddy who was found beaten, lit on fire, and left for dead on the side of a train track and tell him to stop trying to play the victim.

So guys how do you deprogram this? Or am I just supposed to grit my teeth until the boomers all die off?

PEDIT:
"I am going to duck out" this is my surprised face

[panthaleon]

Christians? They are occasionally deluded, mostly harmless individuals that collectively leverage the societal control they wield to harm some of the most vulnerable groups in American society, choosing to disregard any tangible consequences by either attributing it to God's will or framing things in the context of an uncertain afterlife.

KK I don't quite understand your point except insofar as you seem to think as long as Persivul isn't literally calling me a fag, whatever else he does can't be that bad in comparison.

First: telling a person who is being insulted to not be emotional about it is kinda fucked up. Trolls like Persivul say things knowing it causes emotional reactions, and an emotional reaction is not automatically an invalid one. Persivul is calm because he is doing the abuse and doing the attacking. He gets the luxury of being calm.

Second: I will not throw Persivul a bone for having the baseline decency to say that gay people have the right to exist. That is the barest minimum of what he can do, and as a hot take I expect that from everyone. He has no real arguments or appeals, except for his interpretation of a several time translated religious text from 2,000 years ago by which I do not live my life.

Third: I don't believe I am going to convince Persivul of anything. He is a 50 some odd year old man and if he hasn't figured out how to be less of a homophobe, some random person on the internet isn't going to change him. I am going to continue engaging him because the more he shares how he really feels, the more likely he is to feel some consequences for such a toxic belief. And if he doesn't get banned, maybe someone conservative-adjacent will see just how bad the ideology looks.

[panthaleon]

I'll call up my gay buddy who was found beaten, lit on fire, and left for dead on the side of a train track and tell him to stop trying to play the victim.

jesus fucking Christ. Who the fuck are you arguing with?

You're reading in what you want, because you're the type who enjoys being a martyr.

They don't all want to think that a whole lot of people hate them and want them wiped out.

I am concerned Persivul is laboring under some delusion that things aren't that bad for queer folks, so I thought maybe a helpful anecdote might point out why some gay people "think that a whole lot of people hate them and want them wiped out."

[panthaleon]

Rule One of being a conservative troll is no never commit to a substansive position. The longer you dance around what you mean, the more you force your opponents to try to guess what you think. You then complain about them misrepresenting your position and claim victim.

Like god for all my 'being too aggressive' at least people understand exactly what my thoughts are.

[panthaleon]

KK I don't quite understand your point except insofar as you seem to think as long as Persivul isn't literally calling me a fag, whatever else he does can't be that bad in comparison.

I mean you specifically asked, so I answered.

If you think Persivul is a troll, then you're losing by getting riled up and continuing to respond.

If you think there's a possibility that Persivul isn't a troll, then you're losing by straw-manning his arguments.

I ask again, what are you gaining by continue to engage with this?

Just because someone is trolling to get an emotional response doesn't mean that their actions are not harmful. I read a lot of bullshit growing up, and I am not the only gay kid who experienced that. For someone who is vulnerable and in pain, seeing Persivul compare being gay to being a heroin addict is damaging. Especially when it is just left there with no one acting to stop that.

I would like to see Persivul stop posting his shit hellscape takes, or get banned for them. If he suddenly discovers a heart, that would be a cool side effect.

PEDIT:
Why do people think that the real bad guy is the one responding to people saying hateful nonsense

[panthaleon]

This is not misrepresentation. You have stated you believe gay people should not exist. The underlying implications are that my existence is immoral, faulty, and less than that of my heterosexual counterparts. Your sentiment exists only to denigrate gay people, and is the same rhetoric used to restrict rights, promote inequality, and in some places justify their execution.

Your rhetoric is not harmless just because you're too self involved to think about what weird opinions you feel obligated to share.

PEDIT:
I respond to Persivul because he is so fundamentally and harmfully wrong that I feel the act of not responding and tacitly condoning his behavior puts me at fault as well.

Look it's that thing what where I said what I said about how what Persivul is doing is damaging.

Also imagine unironically saying that the person criticizing a homophobe is the real hateful one.

[panthaleon]

Being gay is not a choice someone makes. You cannot disagree with someone's fundamental nature of being. This is more like disagreeing with someone for having brown eyes.

[panthaleon]

I've usually tried to avoid the historical context because that feels like actual hell to discuss with a religious person. Like I don't think I could emotionally handle someone trying to explain why the Church was justified in their previous decisions.

EDIT:
Also sidebar, but I would also like for someone to justify their icky feelings about gay people with something other than their religious text of choice. Like this isn't a rational opinion someone develops. It's a lizard brain response developed by upbringing or indoctrination.

[panthaleon]

I am sorry the thing that groups in power have used to persecute and kill people isn't interesting enough for you. That doesn't really change the past or how the past informs the present context.

PEDIT:
Nice take Flum. I don't even mean this patronizingly and I hope you don't think I hate you as a person. I do like to believe that I am kindhearted and patient about, like, everything that isn't this.

[panthaleon]

sexuality should be as integrated to your identity as which hand is your dominate. Not that important! Unless you play sports I guess....

Neat. But your desired outcome doesn't really change historical context. As long as people seek to denigrate gay people, they going to identify by that marker.

You know kind of like people used to call left-handed people satanic and beat that out of them. People then could very easily identify with the shared struggle of being left handed. That's actually a pretty dope analogy, firebringer.

[panthaleon]

Would I prefer that people not be gay because god? That's a weird way of wording it, but if I'm getting the gist right, that fits me reasonably well.

Additionally you've repeatedly said you disagree with homosexuality. Actually what else can that possibly mean?

I mean like I responded with this KK.

Also friend you still seem to think that ignoring Persivul is a valid response and are ignoring the reason I am saying that response is invalid. Do not patronize me about this, please. I have tried very hard to explain why 'ignore the troll' is bad advice.

[panthaleon]

Firebringer your quips are fun and all, but they don't really address the historical context at all. Whether you personally feel the Church should have persecuted gays doesn't change the fact that they did and we live in a culture built upon that.

[panthaleon]

I mean I am sure Persivul tolerates gay people as long as they don't talk about it, don't kiss in public, don't hold hands, don't have children, don't go to parent teacher conferences, don't make a big deal out of it when he says something homophobic, don't try to put their relationship on par with a straight marriage, and don't make it a part of media.

Which like, you know, is fair I guess. That's on us for shoving our lifestyle in his face.

[panthaleon]

Persivul Milo Yiannapoulos is not a valid source

[panthaleon]

I mean if you are sincere, we both dream of a world where sexuality is as impactful as was hand you write with, but in order to do that, the underlying prejudices have to be addressed and either resolved or eliminated.

[panthaleon]

I mean I am sure Persivul tolerates gay people as long as they don't talk about it, don't kiss in public, don't hold hands, don't have children, don't go to parent teacher conferences, don't make a big deal out of it when he says something homophobic, don't try to put their relationship on par with a straight marriage, and don't make it a part of media.

I have a gay couple as clients. In meetings with them they wore what appeared to be wedding rings. Didn't bother me.

When the IRS made married filing joint available to gay couples married under state laws, I called them to ask if they were legally married (they weren't). Didn't bother me.

Oh thank god Persivul was willing to comply with the law whew. He didn't even ask them to remove their wedding rings. I think by his definition, this proves he's not homophobic.

[panthaleon]

Yes

[panthaleon]

Wait where did the post go

[panthaleon]

This is not misrepresentation. You have stated you believe gay people should not exist. The underlying implications are that my existence is immoral, faulty, and less than that of my heterosexual counterparts. Your sentiment exists only to denigrate gay people, and is the same rhetoric used to restrict rights, promote inequality, and in some places justify their execution.

Your rhetoric is not harmless just because you're too self involved to think about what weird opinions you feel obligated to share.

PEDIT:
I respond to Persivul because he is so fundamentally and harmfully wrong that I feel the act of not responding and tacitly condoning his behavior puts me at fault as well.

[panthaleon]

I would buy that if I didn't know plenty of well-socialized straight people who don't find the concept of homosexuality repulsive and sickening.

[panthaleon]

and the chainsmokers

Ok this is too far now you're reported

[panthaleon]

If you're saying race shouldn't be a big deal I agree.

Since this has come up a couple times, it's important to distinguish that often when minority folks say it shouldn't matter, they mostly refer to the barriers and systemic issues being addressed. Often when conservatives say it, they mean that they don't want to keep hearing about it