Otherkin

[Nancy Drew 39]

ego

[Nancy Drew 39]

I am pretty sure that there is common agreement in scientific community about what person may or may not be. Derailing from that is always bad and causes things like flat earth society.

Spoiler:

[Nancy Drew 39]

Spoiler:

At the heart of the question for me isn't whether someone identifies some way or not, it's whether that is a healthy thing to do. It seems easy for me to think of possible identities in the scope of all identities where the answer to that is very obviously yes or very obviously no. Although less obvious than more extreme examples, a webcomic character still seems like it's pretty obviously on the unhealthy side of the line.

The follow up question to the whether its unhealthy side of things, is whether it can be changed, for something as constructed as a webcomic character, that seems like it should be changeable. There is nothing intrinsic to a fictional character.

All of those thoughts sound a lot like criticisms of other identities I consider valid though(not that my consideration is worth anything). Hard line to walk.

Why? You are making pretty ar8itrary lines in the sand. My identity as Vriska has 8een empowering, and increadi8ly helpful for my self realiz8tion, I get genuine euphoria from it. Even 8esides that, I don't think an identity lived genuinely could 8e unhealthy, and 8y what metric? Therapy is a farce and spits ND people out even more fucked up than when they went in most of the time in my experience. Also it's vile to even think a8out what you mean in the last st8ment, that if I could 8e changed, what if? I am very happy with myself right now, and no you are wrong, this identity has 8een intrinsic to my expression since I discovered it 5 years ago.

the thing I'm curious about is how you identifying as Vriska relates to the existence of Vriska as a character? are you and the character Vriska the same or are you two discrete entities?

Two discrete entities

Is it ok to call her Vriska? Or is that like putting yourself on a firstname basis with someone on the forum just because you happened to find out their name through some means?

It is my firstname, 8ut I'll allow it may8e for some of you

@vriska, is there a specific reason for replacing letters and sounds with the 8s? I'm not sure if that was ever explicitly spelled out. is this 'quirk' (for complete lack of a better term, sorry) related to the Vriska persona you're identifying with, or is this a separate thing done for another reason?

Yes, it is quintessential to the character, and thus to my identity expression. I can explain whatever you want me to a8out the quirk itself. It's actually one of the most legi8le ones.

Normalcy has pretty clearly defined lines. If you can comprehend that and still go on as normal, good for you. If you cant comprehend that you're simply dumb and going forward you'll only harm yourself. I assume you're young when i say these, if you're old and still have this attitude you're fucked to begin with. But dont take the tolerant attitude of this site for granted - it has very accepting people. Not everyone is like that, and if you dont realize this and expect the world to react logically to you then you're in for a surprise.
I'm saying all this for your sake. Keep demonizing me if you want however. All im asking is for you to think about your actions and how people interpret it.

Quit making yourself out like every fucking "let me just help the poor kin grow up" demon asshole, and may8e I won't take it that way. I know how intolerant people can 8e, I've experienced the depths of it 8eing queer as fuck in the south, and 8eing online and getting harassed 8y people like you. You want me to change, and it isn't for myself, it's all a8out you. Also I could talk a lot a8out "logic and reason" and how most of it as used 8y most people is utter trash horseshit and mostly is just used to permit a8lism and eugenicist gar8age a8out NDs.

I am very curious, could you please explain the ND connection, because I know quite a few NDs, I may possibly be borderline ND myself and none of them have referenced this. Thanks.

[Nancy Drew 39]

except for the post readability with the 8's thing that's got accessability issues

I need to reread their posts because they substitute “8”s for both “B”s and any word with “ate” in it.

[Nancy Drew 39]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otherkin

http://otherkin.com/who-and-what-are-otherkin/

[Nancy Drew 39]

"Otherkin are a subculture who socially and spiritually identify as not entirely human." (Wikipedia)

I see no issue here. Where did issue arise if this is both the bare minimum and literal definition of Otherkin?

"..otherkin is an umbrella term for people who don’t identify as wholly human on some level." (otherkin.com)

Again, I see no issue.

Sorry, I didn’t realize you’d already referenced my link. I’m starting to see the ND connection a bit more after reading that.

[Nancy Drew 39]

viewtopic.php?p=12185678#p12185678

Just clicked on it. People were being really horrible to her in that thread, here it was only one person.

[Nancy Drew 39]

Re: Accessibility:

I do think you should use a color besides blue for those who are visually impaired and/or colorblind. The blue doesn't blend too well with the color on MafSilver, and if you ever play a mafia game, the blue will also blend in quite a bit when you are using PTs. (Those have a purple background.) My advice would be to use purple instead if that is not too much of a bother. (Granted, you will need to find another color for private topics, and that isn't necessarily easy to do.)

This color rel8s to my 8lood color, it's as important to the expression as the 8's are.

Ircher is however not wrong, if you ever have to post in one of the private PTs, it will probably not show up unless you either use either bolded text and/or increase its size.

[Nancy Drew 39]

Spoiler:

At the heart of the question for me isn't whether someone identifies some way or not, it's whether that is a healthy thing to do. It seems easy for me to think of possible identities in the scope of all identities where the answer to that is very obviously yes or very obviously no. Although less obvious than more extreme examples, a webcomic character still seems like it's pretty obviously on the unhealthy side of the line.

The follow up question to the whether its unhealthy side of things, is whether it can be changed, for something as constructed as a webcomic character, that seems like it should be changeable. There is nothing intrinsic to a fictional character.

All of those thoughts sound a lot like criticisms of other identities I consider valid though(not that my consideration is worth anything). Hard line to walk.

Why? You are making pretty ar8itrary lines in the sand. My identity as Vriska has 8een empowering, and increadi8ly helpful for my self realiz8tion, I get genuine euphoria from it. Even 8esides that, I don't think an identity lived genuinely could 8e unhealthy, and 8y what metric? Therapy is a farce and spits ND people out even more fucked up than when they went in most of the time in my experience. Also it's vile to even think a8out what you mean in the last st8ment, that if I could 8e changed, what if? I am very happy with myself right now, and no you are wrong, this identity has 8een intrinsic to my expression since I discovered it 5 years ago.

the thing I'm curious about is how you identifying as Vriska relates to the existence of Vriska as a character? are you and the character Vriska the same or are you two discrete entities?

Two discrete entities

Is it ok to call her Vriska? Or is that like putting yourself on a firstname basis with someone on the forum just because you happened to find out their name through some means?

It is my firstname, 8ut I'll allow it may8e for some of you

@vriska, is there a specific reason for replacing letters and sounds with the 8s? I'm not sure if that was ever explicitly spelled out. is this 'quirk' (for complete lack of a better term, sorry) related to the Vriska persona you're identifying with, or is this a separate thing done for another reason?

Yes, it is quintessential to the character, and thus to my identity expression. I can explain whatever you want me to a8out the quirk itself. It's actually one of the most legi8le ones.

Normalcy has pretty clearly defined lines. If you can comprehend that and still go on as normal, good for you. If you cant comprehend that you're simply dumb and going forward you'll only harm yourself. I assume you're young when i say these, if you're old and still have this attitude you're fucked to begin with. But dont take the tolerant attitude of this site for granted - it has very accepting people. Not everyone is like that, and if you dont realize this and expect the world to react logically to you then you're in for a surprise.
I'm saying all this for your sake. Keep demonizing me if you want however. All im asking is for you to think about your actions and how people interpret it.

Quit making yourself out like every fucking "let me just help the poor kin grow up" demon asshole, and may8e I won't take it that way. I know how intolerant people can 8e, I've experienced the depths of it 8eing queer as fuck in the south, and 8eing online and getting harassed 8y people like you. You want me to change, and it isn't for myself, it's all a8out you. Also I could talk a lot a8out "logic and reason" and how most of it as used 8y most people is utter trash horseshit and mostly is just used to permit a8lism and eugenicist gar8age a8out NDs.

I am very curious, could you please explain the ND connection, because I know quite a few NDs, I may possibly be borderline ND myself and none of them have referenced this. Thanks.

Actually not borderline only maybe with Aspergers, I’ve been officially diagnosed with some kind of neurologically based learning disability and ADD. Anyway, still curious about this, thanks.

[Nancy Drew 39]

Yes, can definitely relate. I’d be a millionaire if I had a dollar for everytime I’ve read some idiot claiming my ADD isn’t real.

I’ve even seen the EEG results firsthand but it’s just so extremely soul destroying to nevertheless be told that it’s either just in my head or that my condition doesn’t actually exist so totally agree, it’s just an ignorant NT bias.

[Nancy Drew 39]

Far too often, baseless or biased “logic” is based off of emotion and the fact that too many people are threatened for whatever reason by anyone who they perceive as different from them in a way that makes them uncomfortable, so their “solution” is all too often denying that other person’s reality. Agree, there’s an entire deplorable history of horrific cruelties and injustices perpetuated on anyone who has deviated from the norm in such a way.

[Nancy Drew 39]

Only for game critical things though. Posting here, fuck that. You don't have to read my posts, put me on ignore.

This is very close to my

mod color

and even so, I wouldn't have a problem with you using your color in a game I modded. Although I've used this color since the first game I modded at MS, I'd be totally willing to switch to a different hue for specific games.

Nearly every mafia game on-site has posts with colorful mod text. I've never been asked to change my color because someone found it difficult to read. Bolding probably also helps with mod post legibility, but still, if the MS userbase has accessibility issues around font colors I'm surprised it hasn't been more of a topic of conversation in the past.

I’ve always hated the dark blue background in the private PTs.

[Nancy Drew 39]

Far too often, baseless or biased “logic” is based off of emotion and the fact that too many people are threatened for whatever reason by anyone who they perceive as different from them in a way that makes them uncomfortable, so their “solution” is all too often denying that other person’s reality. Agree, there’s an entire deplorable history of horrific cruelties and injustices perpetuated on anyone who has deviated from the norm in such a way.

We're talking about someone who literally thinks they are a character from a shitty webcomic. That isn't anyone's reality. Don't gaslight people into thinking this shit is okay. The last thing we should do is validate these people.

I’m

“gaslighting”?

[Nancy Drew 39]

Express yourself how you like but don't expect to be taken seriously.

If anyone is guilty of this, it’s YOU!

[Nancy Drew 39]

Far too often, baseless or biased “logic” is based off of emotion and the fact that too many people are threatened for whatever reason by anyone who they perceive as different from them in a way that makes them uncomfortable, so their “solution” is all too often denying that other person’s reality. Agree, there’s an entire deplorable history of horrific cruelties and injustices perpetuated on anyone who has deviated from the norm in such a way.

We're talking about someone who literally thinks they are a character from a shitty webcomic. That isn't anyone's reality. Don't gaslight people into thinking this shit is okay. The last thing we should do is validate these people.

Lol, do you realize you are the one doing the gaslighting? You are like exemplifying the most harmful disgusting person I could imagine, I hope you never come into contact with anyone actually vulnera8le.

+1

Exactly! Who are you @Aura to treat her this way? She isn’t harming anyone is she, so why are you being so awful to her?

[Nancy Drew 39]

She literally lashes out at anyone who doesnt accept the concept? And of course its going to hurt her like wtf this is so unhealthy

I can't believe anyone would stoop so low as accepting kin but I guess thats this site for you

Whatever reason you perceive this as so extremely threatening to you is YOUR issue and your issue alone, not Grip’s or anyone else’s.

[Nancy Drew 39]

Aura isn't really going about this in a constructive way but she also isn't wrong. It's pretty inconceivable to me that this never has a material harmful effect on her. Acting like it wont or that she really is a webcomic character isn't helping her, its hurting her in the long run to avoid conflict. I'm sure all of us engage in harmful behaviour. I drink too much soda, lots of the forum drink too much alcohol, some smoke. We all use mafiascum. But we all recognize those behaviours as negative, and don't have people encouraging us to continue doing it.

I think attempting to act like some armchair psychologist of something you don’t understand or someone you don’t actually know personally is counterproductive, especially when she isn’t hurting anyone.

[Nancy Drew 39]

It's a self fulfilling prophecy chamber. You're threatening her with harm and saying she deserves it/brings it on herself/whatever

He’s assuming he knows what she needs better than she herself who’s actually lived it, he obviously can’t.

[Nancy Drew 39]

It's a self fulfilling prophecy chamber. You're threatening her with harm and saying she deserves it/brings it on herself/whatever

He’s assuming he knows what she needs better than she herself who’s actually lived it, he obviously can’t.

Thats like saying a meth addict knows better because theyve lived the experience of smoking meth

Are you seriously kidding me with this?

[Nancy Drew 39]

If you don't like talking to normal people you can always crawl back to whatever tumblr hole you came from

You really need to just stop, this is bordering on abuse now.

[Nancy Drew 39]

Some users are stupid as fuck but I think we can all sort out which ones they are.

[Nancy Drew 39]

Yes, let's return to a time where catching the plague would most definitely kill you, if not be increasingly painful.

Return? This is the present day, unfortunately but there’s already a thread about that.

[Nancy Drew 39]

[Nancy Drew 39]

Spoiler:

[Nancy Drew 39]

How can I prove something to you when you reject the idea of objective truth existing? You could claim the sun is blue and I could cite studies saying that it isnt only to be told that color is a social construct.

https://www.learning-mind.com/objective ... difference


https://www.yext.com/blog/2020/07/is-tr ... has-to-say


https://www.gotquestions.org/objective-truth.html

[Nancy Drew 39]

Anybody who brings up Hitler/the Holocaust in an argument knows they have already lost the argument and is just throwing one more disrespectful and reactionary thing in there.

This is dumb and if y'all want to bug someone who has found an identity that makes them comfortable and happy y'all need a better hobby. Again this could include kittens and/or puppies.

+1

Don’t forget the meth addiction one as well.

The holocaust denial seems to be the stock argument that everyone who has a bad case seems to autojump to to make their point and in this case, it’s not only offensive to people like AG but to anyone who had ancestors who were actual victims of that atrocity.

[Nancy Drew 39]

Spoiler:

I tried responding to this with laughing crying emojis but the site crashed
So just assume i responded to this with laughing crying emojis and drumpf monke

Ok.

[Nancy Drew 39]

If you give a child a big bag of candy, they will be very happy.

However, it is not healthy for them to eat all of that candy.

I am merely trying to take away the candy. Not all of the candy. Just most of it.

However, other people in this thread insist on giving the candy back. Not only this, but they suggest that I am mean for trying to take the candy away.

In this situation, being "nice" leads to a child having diabetes and being "mean" leads to a healthy child who eats a reasonable amount of candy.

We see that niceness does not equate to kindness.

Are we again back to the meth argument but this time you’re throwing up diabetes? Someone seriously ought to make a stand up comedy routine our of all of the bizarro examples you keep coming up with.

So your point is what exactly? AG needs to spend way more time at the dentist? lmfaoooo

[Nancy Drew 39]

[Nancy Drew 39]

It's not on us to decide whether it is or isn't harmful to a person. If they aren't harming anybody else, then we can just leave them be. Sure we may want them to consider whether or not it's harmful to them, but it's their life to live how they see fit, we don't need to be awful about it at them.

+1

[Nancy Drew 39]

Nancy those are some quality animal gifs

[Nancy Drew 39]

Of course none of us are capable of evaluating someones mental health over the internet. But if there is a giant fucking red flag, ignoring that in favour of enthusiastically supporting them rather than suggesting they actually get evaluated by a mental health professional is irresponsible. I could talk more specifically but I'm trying to make my point more general out of respect for her desire to not be analyzed.

If she says she’s content, why should she even bother?

Therapist: Why are you here exactly?

AG: Well meaning internet folks told me that despite being perfectly happy with my life, this was actually necessary . . . for reasons.

[Nancy Drew 39]

People seek therapy when they’re unhappy, if she says she isn’t, I don’t see how it’s anyone’s place to tell her she needs to see a shrink.

Anyone who’s actually been reading her posts would realize that she’s been struggling for some time and this has helped her more than anything, we should all be so lucky. Her solution is obviously not mine but if she’s happy and not hurting anyone and her posts express clear cohesion and clarity of thought, why can’t people just accept that and stop being meddling busybodies wrt her life?

[Nancy Drew 39]

Of course none of us are capable of evaluating someones mental health over the internet. But if there is a giant fucking red flag, ignoring that in favour of enthusiastically supporting them rather than suggesting they actually get evaluated by a mental health professional is irresponsible. I could talk more specifically but I'm trying to make my point more general out of respect for her desire to not be analyzed.

i don't think anyone needs to 'enthusiastically support' anybody, just let them exist without weird threads psychoanalyzing them in their first two weeks on site.

that person AG actually seems remarkably eloquent about her identity (which she shouldn't really have to be). you (the users of this site) should welcome her on her own merits as a user.

+1

Exactly.

[Nancy Drew 39]

It's not on us to decide whether it is or isn't harmful to a person. If they aren't harming anybody else, then we can just leave them be. Sure we may want them to consider whether or not it's harmful to them, but it's their life to live how they see fit, we don't need to be awful about it at them.

I mean, Vriska won't listen to my advice unless she asks for it which is why I'm not engaging with her that much or bothering.

I've heard otherkins getting lumped in with transgenders really damage the transgender movement (see the attack helicopter copypasta)

And I've personally learned avoiding reality is not a good long term solution to living a fulfilling life and seen the results of both in other people. So i am concerned for her.

so flum it's a minor thing but transgender people are usually not referred to as 'transgenders', it's a sort of derogatory inflection (although not on the level of a serious slur, of course).

i also think saying "Transgender people have struggled due to otherkin" is just a wrong statement. blaming a tiny and politically powerless minority of individuals (otherkin) instead of the reactionary majority that actually does make it hard for transgender people kind of helps that majority oppress yet another group instead of actually working against it.

just what i think.

Weren't you permabanned vij?

yeah im pretty sure they just forgot to press the button that stopped me from posting for whatever reason. i don't really follow mafiascum anyway but this thread is classic mafiascum - interesting and infuriating in half measure. i imagine zoraster will be by to press the button correctly soon (also I cannot see and thus cannot post in the speakeasy or mish mash areas)

Why were you banned? You have some of the most intelligent posts in the entire thread. :/

[Nancy Drew 39]

He uses the tiger skin.

[Nancy Drew 39]

I'm going to come in with a hot take, but there isn't really a brightline difference between Grip's belief about her identity and a religious person's belief about theological events, in terms of how they should be regarded. If one is an atheist, for example, Jesus, the biblical character who displays a number of divine powers, is as fictional for you as Vriska is, and a lot of Christians make SIGNIFICANT more life decisions of SIGNIFICANTLY more impact on the course of their life and SIGNIFICANTLY more harm to the lives of others based on these beliefs than Grip's use of the number 8 and blue text. Most atheists/agnostics nevertheless manage to find the tact to not bring it up to Christians at every opportunity and constantly talk about how harmful it is their basing their life around what the atheist believes is a fictional character. I suspect most have the capacity to do the same here.

I'll admit that special care must be taken regarding not allowing the weaponization of otherkin against trans people, and I think the metaphysical backing of gender is stronger than the metaphysical backing of fictional character identity and the institutional harm faced by trans people is much more dangerous and powerful than that faced by otherkin, so I don't expect a "buy-in" on the notion as I would on trans (that is, I wouldn't morally judge someone for not ACTUALLY thinking Grip is Vriska vs someone who doesn't think a trans person ACTUALLY is their stated gender), but other than that if someone tells you what they identify as and how that impacts how they wish to interact with you, just do it.

Good point. Cult members are often happy, but I'd be very concerned if one of my friends or family joined one even if they're happy.

If you're talking about all sects of Christianity in general, the comparison only works if they started identifying as Jesus. Religious Christians usually try to model their life off how Jesus lived, but don't think they're Jesus themselves.

Cults aren’t a great comparison because by that very definition, they are brainwashed, so comparing AG to a cult member is an insult regardless if that was your intention or not.

[Nancy Drew 39]

Calling a cult member by definition brainwashed is also insulting but surely there couldn't be any around to object.

No it’s not because the word by definition is a pejorative term. Even people who are actually in cults don’t use that term to describe themsrlves.

No one in Jonestown or the Branch Dividians referred to themselves that way.

[Nancy Drew 39]

Calling a cult member by definition brainwashed is also insulting but surely there couldn't be any around to object.

No it’s not because the word by definition is a pejorative term. Even people who are actually in cults don’t use that term to describe themsrlves.

No one in Jonestown or the Branch Dividians referred to themselves that way.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult

In the English-speaking world, the term cult often carries derogatory connotations.[10] In this sense, it has been considered a subjective term, used as an ad hominem attack against groups with differing doctrines or practices.[6][11] As such, religion scholar Megan Goodwin defined the term cult, when used by the layperson, as often being a shorthand for a "religion I don't like."[12]

[Nancy Drew 39]

A Branch Davidian or Peoples Temple member would know you're talking about them when you say cult though.

But the point is no one would ever describe themselves as belonging to one - in the present tense.

[Nancy Drew 39]

And by you I mean anyone not you specifically, I don't know your feelings on this obviously.

I was just making the argument correctling what Fulm was arguing as being in any way comparable with AG because she is choosing her identity with a clear head and 100% of her own volition.

Brainwashing otoh, implies some form of gaslighting or manipulation that the individual in question did not consent to. As in many cults, some members may experience sleep deprivation for example, love bombing or guilt tripping etc. so I wouldn’t necessarily call anyone who belongs to a cult “happy” because they probably didn’t knowingly choose what they were getting into.

Cults generally involve some form of communal abuse. In Scientology for example, they have this organization called “Sea Org” which is a kind of an institutionalized form of child abuse.

Spoiler:

[Nancy Drew 39]

Yep, this thread probably won’t get alot of action for awhile now.

[Nancy Drew 39]

I found an interesting video about this.