"Happy holidays" is bullshit Christian normativity.

[BROseidon]

Oh my god this thread is painful to read.

I just finished page four and I want to jump through the internet and yell at everyone for being wrong.

[BROseidon]

Like, every time you want to use the "you're choosing to be offended" argument, please stop.

And realize that you're being an asshat.

[BROseidon]

Also every intent argument is bullshit because intent doesn't matter.

[BROseidon]

Also the capitalism arguments are bad because capitalism is an imposition of Protestant ethics on Western Europe. If you disagree with that, you need to read

The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism

.

So you're really just replacing one religious imposition with another.

[BROseidon]

Nope, I get to be too!

TSQ should probably mention that

[BROseidon]

Insert semi-serious argument about the removal of Armenians from American cultural narratives so that we can be allies with the nation that genocided my ancestors

[BROseidon]

When I'm not phone posting on a plane, I'll give you a serious response.

Or maybe someone else will beat me about how you're basically condoning every -ism ever

[BROseidon]

And I'm sorry that you missed the point enough to include that last jab.

I mean, what would you wish me, the poor schmuck behind the cash register to tell people during the holiday season? I'm serious about this. Let's channel this injustice towards something better. If you had to pick, what would the preferred greeting be? And, to follow, if the answer is nothing related to the major holidays of the season, should I also do the same during Halloween or Chinese New Year or Summer Solstice or any vaguely-religious holiday?

"Have a nice day"

[BROseidon]

So just because Christmas is the largest holiday in most Western cultures, why does 'Happy Holidays' have to be associated to Christmas? I wish people happy holidays when there are numerous holidays ongoing such as in the month of December, or late Jan/Feb when you have numerous Asian holidays, or March when you move into Persian holidays. It's what it is, happy holiday to be wished upon others when there's a holiday, nothing more nothing less.

You're also from a place where the social context of this thread doesn't exist, which colors your perspective.

"Happy holidays" doesn't have to mean "Merry X-mas and some other holidays that are only important because CHRISTMAS," but that doesn't change that in practice it does. Sort of like how "chink" doesn't have to be a derogatory word for Asians, but in practice it is.

[BROseidon]

Let me rephrase that:

Good intent doesn't make an action good. You can still support systemic oppression while having good intent.

[BROseidon]

Aegor holy shit it does not communicate the same thing. One is completely blank, the other is implicitly supporting Protestant hegemony in the US.

It's the difference between addressing me by my name and by "hey faggot," just a lot more subtle

[BROseidon]

Apparently religious oppression is really hard for people to see.

[BROseidon]

I think Christianity is bad and should be replaced with darwinist socialism as dominant cultural force.

Also it's Protestantism, not Christianity that dominates.

JFK was attacked for being catholic when he ran for president. Granted, non-Protestant Christians have it better when it comes to these issues, but it's sort of like how masc gays have it better than fems

[BROseidon]

Apparently religious oppression is really hard for people to see.

Probably because religion is naturally hard to see. Most people don't exactly wear it as they would a name or a skin color.

But it's literally the same issues.

Every time.

It feels like I have to explain the same concepts here that I am in the ferguson thread or guys p2 (occasionally), just framed in a slightly different context.

[BROseidon]

But what do you do when they're not getting it in any categorization, and you're having the same argument with them every time?

[BROseidon]

So just because Christmas is the largest holiday in most Western cultures, why does 'Happy Holidays' have to be associated to Christmas? I wish people happy holidays when there are numerous holidays ongoing such as in the month of December, or late Jan/Feb when you have numerous Asian holidays, or March when you move into Persian holidays. It's what it is, happy holiday to be wished upon others when there's a holiday, nothing more nothing less.

You're also from a place where the social context of this thread doesn't exist, which colors your perspective.

"Happy holidays" doesn't have to mean "Merry X-mas and some other holidays that are only important because CHRISTMAS," but that doesn't change that in practice it does. Sort of like how "chink" doesn't have to be a derogatory word for Asians, but in practice it is.

So if you're wishing some 'Happy Holidays' during some non-Christmas time of year, you'll still associate it with Christmas? Please, that's just absurd.

Your point isn't germane because that doesn't happen in the us.

[BROseidon]

Two things here to respond to BROseidon:
1) I regret my word choice re: "choosing to be offended." Obviously people can't just choose to shrug everything off. That said, I cannot and will not apologize if someone is incapable of not-being-offended by a societal norm that I happen to be fine with but another person happens to disagree with. That's probably a bit on the harsh side, but *shrug*? Can't make everyone happy.
2) Intent absolutely matters. At the end of the day, if I wish someone Merry Christmas, Happy Holidays, or any other greeting or form of goodwill, I'm going to feel better for it -- certainly much more so than if I said "Happy Holidays" with the intent of insulting someone or margianizing them. The former (wishing goodwill) reflects well upon me as a person. The latter (intent to insult or demean) reflects poorly on me as a person. In this sense, intent absolutely matters. The argument that "it doesn't matter" is an untenable position. To use an admittedly imperfect analogy, intent is why involuntary manslaughter and murder are separate charges with separate proof requirements and separate sentences.


That said, there is one thing that I want to point out regarding Shea's necro. I have a number of Jewish friends and acquaintances, and this is the only instance I've ever heard of someone being offended that "Happy Holidays" is offensive to "Jewish people" in general. I don't understand why Shea feels he can speak for the Jewish population as a whole when empirical evidence suggests that the issue is not societal but more a conflict with his own personal ideology. If there is proof that this is an issue with the Jewish population as a whole and that my experiences are an outlier, I'm willing to listen.

Re your points:

1) It was a societal norm for the longest time to call gay men faggots and physically assault them, so much so that the police in SF in the 70s condoned (and maybe even took part in) this behavior. By your logic here, I, as a gay man, would have had no right to be offended by that because "well, that's the norm and I won't apologize for it"

Societal norms are defined by the majority group that systemic oppression supports.

Societal norms support systemic oppression.

It really shouldn't be that hard for anyone on this board to understand.

2)

You don't have to be aware of the fact that you are perpetuating systemic oppression to perpetuate it.

Good people can be led to do bad things very easily. "Nicer" people are more likely to be willing to inflict pain at the command of a superior than "mean" people like Shea. "Nice" people can do terrible things because they don't understand what they're doing, or don't want to disrupt the status quo (which is how you get atrocities like the Holocaust. I don't care what your intent is when your actions serve to directly on indirect oppress me or anyone else

3) "Some people in this minority say it's okay, so it's obviously okay"

Because internalized oppression is clearly not a thing.

Because even people in the minority don't necessarily understand the systems that oppress them (see: the Mattachine Society condemning the Stonewall Riots, or the Black celebrities condemning the post-Ferguson protests)

Asking people within a minority group to justify their anger at something is a form of invalidation and oppression

[BROseidon]

“I believe that in ways large and small, peaceful and sometimes violent, that the biggest threat to the future of our children and grandchildren is the poison of identity politics that preaches that our differences are far more important than our common humanity" --Bill Clinton

That isn't to say that our differences are not relevant or that the cause is morally wrong, but, I mean, look at the vitriol in every single one of these threads. It devours us all.

It's also important to note Bill Clinton's historical position as a man supported by literally every system of oppression in the US.

You know what destroys me more than working to improve people's understanding of social justice issues? Systemic oppression.

[BROseidon]

Okay I take that back. I don't think Bill had class privilege the way that, say, Mitt Romney did growing up.

[BROseidon]

Also am I allowed to say Happy Holidays if the intent is to piss off Bill O'Reilly?

I would say yes, but I'm also an asshole.

[BROseidon]

Social Justice, by that you mean "bullshit excuse to hold oneself superior to their fellow humans"?

Because by and large that's what it appears to be.

It would be great if they didn't fight discrimination with reverse discrimination and hate with hate. But that's exactly what they do.

I do not necessarily agree with this. I believe the majority of the serious people in this movement do have the best in mind, it's just that the movement itself's ideals tend can easily be misconstrued as demonization of ruling classes in society which can in term mislead people's best judgment(also since 'social justice' is kind of the big thing right now, there are a lot of people who don't really understand the movement but are in it for the social status). There are always opportunists in every sort of group or movement(this person being a relatively recent big-name example), of course, but they are the exception--not the rule.

The "demonization of the ruling class" is ultimately people who don't have (or think they have) bias not understanding that not having bias doesn't mean that they don't support systemic oppression, and then getting upset when you say that they support systemic oppression because they don't understand what that is.

If you support Capitalism and/or the "Holiday Season," you are supporting Protestant hegemony.

If you don't think Darren Wilson should have been indicted, you are supporting Racism.

If you support the war on drugs, you are supporting Racism.

If you favor Republican tax policy, you are supporting Classism.

If you support the Keystone Pipeline, you are supporting Racism (and arguably the continuation of the genocide on Native Americans)

etc, etc

That doesn't mean that you have personal biases against any of the groups in question, but that doesn't change that you are supporting policies that systematically oppress those groups and ultimately cause them damage.

Like,

I legitimately don't understand how it can be so hard for people to understand that their identity colors every interaction they have. Psyche can't have an interaction where is blackness and queerness doesn't color it. I can't have an interaction where my queerness doesn't color it. Shea can't have an interaction where his Jewishness doesn't color it. Sometimes those identity traits aren't germane, but the vast majority of the time they are.

[BROseidon]

And yes, you're right that there has always been and likely always will be some level of inequity. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't fight it.

The fact that wealth and racial inequity has been on the rise since Reagan is also something worth noting. For a lot of people, things haven't been getting better, they've actually been getting worse (and from a wealth perspective, that's most of the Americans on this board)

[BROseidon]

No, it's because it forces everyone to abide to a holiday schedule established by Protestants around the holiday they deem most important.

[BROseidon]

Christmas is mostly a secular holiday now, yes. It's a big consumerism event. The "meaning" of Christmas is more for symbol now. It's about as religious as July 4th.

Consumerism and American capitalism are a product of Protestantism, so your swap-out is null here :/

[BROseidon]

(I've already mentioned that earlier in the thread)

[BROseidon]

Christmas is mostly a secular holiday now, yes. It's a big consumerism event. The "meaning" of Christmas is more for symbol now. It's about as religious as July 4th.

Consumerism and American capitalism are a product of Protestantism, so your swap-out is null here :/

No, it's not, and let's stop pretending like mass cultural adaptation of capitalism is some offensive thing just like mass cultural adaptation of a religion.

Fucking hell.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Protes ... Capitalism

[BROseidon]

There isn't an issue of systemic oppression in the US based on Football Fandom.

I will not be murdered for not being a football fan.

I will not be denied a promotion for not being a football fan.

I will not be unable to run for public office for not being a football fan.

Huge straw man there.

[BROseidon]

And wishing someone a happy 4th of July otherizes those from other countries who don't care about the fourth of July.

Also, in what way is new years religious? Christmas at least has religious origins even if most people no longer care about that, but what is wrong with wishing someone a happy new years/wishing someone a happy holidays and referring to new years?

Happy New Years is fine, and your question is a non sequitur

[BROseidon]

There isn't an issue of systemic oppression in the US based on Football Fandom.

Yeah, it's a thread about people being wished "Happy Holidays".

Which helps sustain a system of religious oppression.

I feel like I'm talking in circles here.

[BROseidon]

A song about rape plays in your head when you say "Happy Holidays?"

That's new.

[BROseidon]

There isn't an issue of systemic oppression in the US based on Football Fandom.

Yeah, it's a thread about people being wished "Happy Holidays".

Which helps sustain a system of religious oppression.

I'm sorry the happiness of others offends you?

No, but systemic religious oppression, especially as it connects to homophobia and a lesser degree race, does.

And it in fact quite directly adversely affects my life on a day-to-day basis.

[BROseidon]

People are going to be offended at Happy Holidays = Happy New Years because you're ignoring non-solar-based calendars.

I also don't really believe in calendars or birthdays, so...

[BROseidon]

But "happy holidays" might refer to New Years. As has been said, it refers to all the holidays which take place around this time period, at least one of which is secular.

You're ignoring what it actually means in practice ("Merry Christmas and these other holidays that happen to be around Christmas") in favor of pedantic theory that isn't relevant to the issue.

[BROseidon]

To be fair, if you're going to be faux-upset at Happy New Year's, you get to be faux-upset at the fact that we use this calendar and year numbering methodology

Yeah pretty much.

I mostly get upset when people get upset at me for forgetting their birthdays, though, given that I forget my own sometimes.

[BROseidon]

Majiffy don't ever change.

Okay I don't actually mean that but 10/10

[BROseidon]

But "happy holidays" might refer to New Years. As has been said, it refers to all the holidays which take place around this time period, at least one of which is secular.

You're ignoring what it actually means in practice ("Merry Christmas and these other holidays that happen to be around Christmas") in favor of pedantic theory that isn't relevant to the issue.

"these other holidays that happen to be around Christmas" includes New Years.

Which doesn't change the fact that the holiday season is a construct around Christmas.

[BROseidon]

Like, New Years is fairly tangential to that.

[BROseidon]

But "happy holidays" might refer to New Years. As has been said, it refers to all the holidays which take place around this time period, at least one of which is secular.

You're ignoring what it actually means in practice ("Merry Christmas and these other holidays that happen to be around Christmas") in favor of pedantic theory that isn't relevant to the issue.

"these other holidays that happen to be around Christmas" includes New Years.

Which doesn't change the fact that the holiday season is a construct around Yule.

FTFY.

Christians got the date from Pagans. We then got the date from Christians.

Okay, but the Pagans aren't the ones who imposed it on the modern US.

Although it is why everyone else celebrates Christmas on the wrong day, and why I have to work during my Christmas.

[BROseidon]

I mean, like, even if the song was about rape(and it's disputed, considering the song makes much more context when you remember it was written in the 1940s), that's just being dishonest and you know it.

Marital Rape wasn't legally recognized until like the 80s or something. Does that mean that all marital rapes before that weren't really rapes?

The song is pretty blatant coercion.

[BROseidon]

You say these things like I don't agree with them. I've pretty much always subscribed to the Avenue Q model of race relations.

I'm attacking the aims. What do you plan to do to fix these? Like, the best way I can think to put it is, yes, celebrating Christmas or participating in Capitalism is an act of capitulating to the Protestant Hegemony and the systemic oppression of other religions. But there is literally no way to not do that. You, yourself are reaping the benefits of the Protestant Hegemony right now! I mean, I guess you can go to Iran or North Korea or some other place in the world that does it's best not to participate in the world economy, but, like, :/.

The whole thing is futile. Labeling people as oppressors does not help, either. Even if you don't intend to, they take it as a indictment of their character.

"Fix" is the wrong word. "Mitigate" or "make less" is more appropriate.

[BROseidon]

PEOPLE STARTED SAYING HAPPY HOLIDAYS BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T WANT TO OFFEND PEOPLE WHO DIDN'T CELEBRATE CHRISTMAS.
Even that was ridiculous. If I'm a Christian, I'm going to wish someone Merry Christmas, because it's that fucking special to me. And if someone wishes me Happy Kwanzaa or Happy Hannukah, I'm going to smile and thank them or wish them well back. Because nobody is fucking oppressing you or being a dick by GREETING YOU COLLOQUIALLY.

NOW SAYING HAPPY HOLIDAYS OFFENDS SOMEONE BECAUSE PEOPLE DON'T BELIEVE IN HOLIDAYS OR SOME SHIT.
Who the fuck FUCKING cares!? Then DON'T wish people happy holidays, wheee, the end! And if you're offended that someone is taking time out of their day to wish you well... in literally the most harmless way possible... in a way that it takes a significant amount of effort to see hostility or negativity in... then like, I don't know, man. You've got a whole host of other issues wrong.

I'm not religious in the slightest and I don't fucking care how someone greets me because motivation and intent is more important than me trying to find a negative connotation with everything. IS SOMEONE DOING IT TO BE A DICK? Then yes, it's okay to be pissy about it. IS SOMEONE DOING IT AND YOU'RE TAKING IT NEGATIVELY BUT THEY PROBABLY DIDN'T KNOW OR MEAN ANY HARM BY IT? Then no, stop being pissy and let a little light in your life.

The issue ultimately comes down how as a society we've decided that Christian holidays are the ones we'd build our vacation schedules around (Winter break = X-mas, Spring break = Easter).

We could, you know, just not hype it all. Sort of like how we don't hype Ramadan or Yom Kippur and Rosh Hashanah

[BROseidon]

causing you to portrait Christmas as equally evil as the Inquisition.

Nowhere have I expressed magnitude.

Saying something is a problem is different from saying it's a huge problem, or ranking it on a scale of problems.

[BROseidon]

Winter Break? Winter Break = end of a semester. You can blame the Julian calendar for that one, chief.

Uh, that's just not true.

Our academic calendar is designed around 1) letting kids help on the farm and 2) cutting it at x-mas.

[BROseidon]

semester (from the Latin meaning "six-monthly")

there maybe this illuminates things a bit more

Okay.

Why do we use semesters in the first place?

[BROseidon]

We could, you know, just not hype it all. Sort of like how we don't hype Ramadan or Yom Kippur and Rosh Hashanah

Psh, I always got off of school for all those holidays as well.

I got Yom Kippur K-8 because I went to a private school that was 1/2 Jewish.

[BROseidon]

If I'm remembering my demographics correctly, the second most common religion in America is not Judaism, but Islam. Why don't they merit concern in the holiday wishing scheme?

Religious oppression is particularly targeted against Muslims and Athiests in the US

[BROseidon]

Aegor holy shit it does not communicate the same thing. One is completely blank, the other is implicitly supporting Protestant hegemony in the US.

It is not blank any more than omitting black history from an American textbook is blank. Silence on an issue communicates a message that is less explicit than an affirmation but no less present. It conveys notions of what it is acceptable and noteworthy.

Apparently religious oppression is really hard for people to see.

We really, really need to address your errant and wanton use of the word "oppression."

From the OED: "Prolonged cruel or unjust treatment or exercise of authority, control, or power; tyranny; exploitation. Also: an act or instance of this...The action of forcibly putting down or crushing."

Wishing someone "Merry Christmas" may normalize a particular religion, but I fail to see how it involves forcibly suppressing the beliefs of others or how it is cruel or unjust treatment. Wishing someone "Merry Christmas" does not inherently prevent that person from believing whatever he wants, nor does it constitute any exercise of formalized authority or control in an unjust or cruel way, assuming benevolence.

Even establishing an official state religion does not inherently constitute religious oppression so long as freedom to practice other religions is present.

Re your points:

Asking people within a minority group to justify their anger at something is a form of invalidation and oppression

Is expecting everyone, whether a part of the majority or minority, to justify their anger at something also a form of invalidation and oppression? Is your issue that requests for justification are made at all or that they are disproportionately leveled against members of minority groups?

I am afraid that I still do not see how asking someone to justify an emotional response is inherently problematic in any way.

In many ways this is in and itself a byproduct of oppression. It is saying "your feelings matter because of how they make me feel" which is not the point at all. I'm not trying to make you feel anything, and how you feel about your actions is not the point. The point isn't how you feel about doing something that oppresses people, the point is understanding the feelings and the situations of those you oppress.

How should those feelings and situations be used and why? I am not seeing the chain of reasoning that leads to letting the feelings of others guide one's decision-making process. From this post it seems that your primary concern is ensuring that people are not "assholes," but ultimately that just means "confirm to my yet-unspecified code of conduct."

1) Silence on the message of what time of year is important is... exactly what I'd like, actually.

2) You seem to think that this topic is the entirety of religious oppression in the US. It's a small cog in a much, much larger machine that ends with me being beaten by some religious nut jobs for being gay. Is it even close to one of the largest cogs? No, but it's still a cog.

3) You're still being a dumbass, then

[BROseidon]

I also feel it's a militant, proselytising religion based on falsehoods more blatant than any other religion. And unlike other religions, it doesn't have mad subcults who want to return civilization to the 7th century.

Christianity.

[BROseidon]

In Ireland, the Islam minority are attempting to ban percussion instruments in national schools because it is "against their beliefs."

If they succeed, they discriminate against my children and their right to play percussion instruments.

True or false?

PEdit: Actually, I have read the Koran. Not all of it, and not studiously, but I have.

The children should have the right to withdraw from classes where percussion instruments are being played.

[BROseidon]

They get more hassle from law enforcements sometimes

have you ever interacted with the police in the USA? srs question

No, I haven't.

Presumably they're more vigorous with Muslims than others.

I have no idea why this is questionable - 80% of the 9/11 bombers were Saudi Arabians.

I mean, sure, they could be completely neutral. That's the price you pay for a 9/11 style catastrophe.

Then you get to shut the fuck up instead of pretending to know anything about what it's like.

Almost 100% of school shootings are done by straight white men. Clearly I should treat all straight white men like shit, right?

[BROseidon]

Can you tell me what shariah law is called in the Bible?

Evangelism and 2000 years of violence.

[BROseidon]

But you can't have both. That's the thing. This isn't a two-choice question. Either you get your equality, and periodically people blow themselves up as martyrs - or you get discrimination, and you get to meet up with your family and ask them how their children are.

This is literally wrong.

[BROseidon]

The fact that Israel is both less discriminatory and more effective at combating terrorism should tell you that you're literally just wrong.

[BROseidon]

Can I have inequality AND bombings?

That's what we have right now because of people like TSO!

[BROseidon]

I dunno, the fact that TSO's being outright racist towards me is pretty deplorable.

[BROseidon]

I dunno, the fact that TSO's being outright racist towards me is pretty deplorable.

Does that make him your enemy?

Serious question.

No, but it means I have zero respect for him.

[BROseidon]

Although not having to deal with how to emotionally deal with people who hold bigoted views of you is an aspect of privilege that makes it easy to tell people like me and Psyche that we're "dealing with it wrong," if that's the implication you're going for.

[BROseidon]

Nope, just a terrorist because my family's from the Middle East.

We'll ignore that my Christianity is older than all of yours.

[BROseidon]

Although not having to deal with how to emotionally deal with people who hold bigoted views of you is an aspect of privilege that makes it easy to tell people like me and Psyche that we're "dealing with it wrong," if that's the implication you're going for.

Careful now. Making assumptions about people based on their skin color is the thing you hate that others do.

Yeah, but inferences from loaded questions are great!

[BROseidon]

I dunno, the fact that you have a serious, SERIOUS complex about discrimination to the point where you feel me airing my views on a public forum while never once making a personal attack towards you is "outright racism" is pretty bad too, BRO. Might want to have a look at that one.

"Here are negative things about group X, to which you belong"

"You're being racist towards me"

"lol no I'm not"

You're not fucking serious, are you? If you came in here and said "fuck all faggots," you'd be personally attacking every gay person on this board. You've done that, but it just so happens that there aren't a lot of Middle Easterners on this board.

[BROseidon]

So is saying that most terrorism is perpetuated by Middle Easterners, when that's verifiably false.

[BROseidon]

It's like saying "Black people always cause race riots" in the US despite the fact that the largest race riot in the US was white people rioting and destroying Black Wall St.

[BROseidon]

But I guess white people going around and shooting people isn't terrorism.

[BROseidon]

That would be relevant if you weren't spewing straight up anti-middle eastern and islamophobic sentiment.

[BROseidon]

They get more hassle from law enforcements sometimes

have you ever interacted with the police in the USA? srs question

No, I haven't.

Presumably they're more vigorous with Muslims than others.

I have no idea why this is questionable - 80% of the 9/11 bombers were Saudi Arabians.

I mean, sure, they could be completely neutral. That's the price you pay for a 9/11 style catastrophe.

Then you get to shut the fuck up instead of pretending to know anything about what it's like.

Almost 100% of school shootings are done by straight white men. Clearly I should treat all straight white men like shit, right?

I have no idea why this is questionable - 80% of the 9/11 bombers were Saudi Arabians.

I mean, sure, they could be completely neutral. That's the price you pay for a 9/11 style catastrophe.

Ah yes, "the price" every Muslim should pay for a few brainwashed extremist fundamentalist kids being manipulated by crazed, power-hungry terrorists.

Because that's fair.

Let me lay out the position you guys are taking.

You want equality for all, and that is a lovely thing to want. You don't want Arabs or Muslims to be singled out or be given special treatment anywhere. You want them to be treated the same as everyone else everywhere, in places like airport terminals. Again, that's great.

But you also don't seem to want suicide bombings, or phone calls informing you your uncle is dead because he was in a cafe in New York and boom. You don't want to watch TV news bulletins which detail the biggest buildings in the country collapsing and everyone in them dying with planes stuck in the sides. And again, that's great.

But you can't have both. That's the thing. This isn't a two-choice question. Either you get your equality, and periodically people blow themselves up as martyrs - or you get discrimination, and you get to meet up with your family and ask them how their children are.

Which do you want?

Like this post, for instance.

[BROseidon]

I'm not Muslim. I'm Christian. Christians exist in the Middle East, and have for thousands of years.

I'm saying that blanket-searching an entire class of people is both racist and ineffective. The TSA could easily be made both more effective and more efficient.

[BROseidon]

And, I'll admit, straight up, I don't like Islam - it's more contradictory than other religions, leads to extremism more easily than other religions and its teachings and cultures are less to my taste than other religions.

It's no worse than Christianity. Except you minimally are culturally Christian, so you're okay with it.

[BROseidon]

But I guess white people going around and shooting people isn't terrorism.

ter·ror·ism
The use of violence and intimidation in the pursuit of political aims.

Edit: Merriam-Webster:
terrorism noun (Concise Encyclopedia)
Systematic use of violence to create a general climate of fear in a population and thereby to bring about a particular political objective. It has been used throughout history by political organizations of both the left and the right, by nationalist and ethnic groups, and by revolutionaries. Although usually thought of as a means of destabilizing or overthrowing existing political institutions, terror also has been employed by governments against their own people to suppress dissent; examples include the reigns of certain Roman emperors, the French Revolution (see Reign of Terror), Nazi Germany, the Soviet Union under Stalin, and Argentina during the “dirty war” of the 1970s.

War on drugs and the militarization of police are forms of terrorism against black people by that definition, so...

[BROseidon]

Naw Psyche because people are 100% in control of their everything and aren't shaped by the systems in which they exist

[BROseidon]

Armenian apostolic

[BROseidon]

What's the appropriate response to:

"You're cute for a black guy"

"You're so masculine" (to a gay guy)

etc etc

You either begrudgingly let it slide or you try to educate people about the issue.

[BROseidon]

So just because Christmas is the largest holiday in most Western cultures, why does 'Happy Holidays' have to be associated to Christmas? I wish people happy holidays when there are numerous holidays ongoing such as in the month of December, or late Jan/Feb when you have numerous Asian holidays, or March when you move into Persian holidays. It's what it is, happy holiday to be wished upon others when there's a holiday, nothing more nothing less.

You're also from a place where the social context of this thread doesn't exist, which colors your perspective.

"Happy holidays" doesn't have to mean "Merry X-mas and some other holidays that are only important because CHRISTMAS," but that doesn't change that in practice it does. Sort of like how "chink" doesn't have to be a derogatory word for Asians, but in practice it is.

So if you're wishing some 'Happy Holidays' during some non-Christmas time of year, you'll still associate it with Christmas? Please, that's just absurd.

Your point isn't germane because that doesn't happen in the us.

Ok, if we're going to argue the US, are Americans responsible for having the knowledge of holidays in other cultures?

Would you be offended living in some other country where people only wished you 'happy holidays' during their holidays but not yours (say, thanksgiving, independence day, possibly christmas, etc.)?

To address the not-bold, the point is that there are other religions in the US that are systemically oppressed by Protestantism, so it's not "having knowledge of holidays in other cultures." It's straight up "we're doing things the Protestant way, and if you don't have an important holiday there, we're going to make it important. If you don't have a holiday there, we'll literally invent one."

Saying that Protestantism is the "religion" of the US is like saying white is the "race" of the US. It has the majority/plurality, but there are very large numbers of other people.

The bolded is, again, not germane to the conversation. We're talking about a specific point in the system of religious oppression in the US, and thought experimenting about other potential systems and issues does nothing to address that.

[BROseidon]

Can you stop being pedantic? You're not actually contributing to the conversation while being not correct a lot of the time.

[BROseidon]

but generally, I think that TSQ is quite right. it can all be summed up to, how comes you don't greet us with happy holidays during september-October, where we usually have at least 4(!!) holidays?

Because it's more than just a "let's make Jews happy" thing?

The point is that we don't say "Happy holidays" around the important holidays of non-Protestant religions.

[BROseidon]

Regardless, this entire conversation seems silly.


Appreciate the good will of others, recognize that you are in a sort of cultural minority, educate others charitably when they err factually about something.

The only way not to express culture is not to say or do anything at all.

That there are things that the minority can do doesn't mean that the majority isn't doing anything wrong. The burden goes both ways.

Have the serenity to accept the things you cannot change,
The courage to change the things you can,
And the wisdom to know the difference.

And of course the group in power is the arbiter of what can and cannot be changed

[BROseidon]

What I do give a shit about is people. Individuals.

I don't care about the system or whatever.

"I care about individuals, but I don't care about understanding why entire groups of individuals are consistently disadvantaged in our society.

[BROseidon]

Regardless, this entire conversation seems silly.


Appreciate the good will of others, recognize that you are in a sort of cultural minority, educate others charitably when they err factually about something.

The only way not to express culture is not to say or do anything at all.

That there are things that the minority can do doesn't mean that the majority isn't doing anything wrong. The burden goes both ways.

No, but it's our responsibility to constantly educate the majority. Duh.

[BROseidon]

[BROseidon]

Although my ex is actually entirely like that. It was really weird having conversations because he'd be like "oh my god I feel so bad about that [insert less well off person here]," and I'd be like, "That individual person's suffering bothers me less than the systems that placed him there."

Together we formed a complete empathy.

[BROseidon]

The only reason the system bothers you is due to the suffering of the individuals.

I prefer to stick to the root of why we care about these things.

Edit: I really hate to say this but this is the kind of thing I think Kant was *hack* *cough* HRM

right

about. People, not society, are at the root of morality.

Disclaimer to say that I don't present these as objectively true, this is just the meaning I find for myself in ethics.

YES!

But you can't help those individuals without fixing the systems!

[BROseidon]

And of course the group in power is the arbiter of what can and cannot be changed

If you keep thinking that, you'll never have the courage to change anything.

You realize I'm attacking majority groups that try to dictate how minorities go about fighting for better treatment, right?

[BROseidon]

I was thinking the other day about something along the lines of how to change a prevailing culture - minority individuals have to succeed within the existing system, and those individuals then have to exert their influence along with the disadvantaged group expressing their opinion in order to make societal change. Allies from within a majority group helps too, and that type of assistance becomes more likely with successful members of a minority.

Individuals have the capacity to succeed within almost any given system in today's world, but when you look at demographics as a whole, there are some groups that are simply less likely to succeed at the same level as others en masse.

/rambly thoughts

It's a weird thing.

In terms of Harvey Milk, for instance, he was only able to get stuff done because of SF redoing how city council members were elected. When it was a city-wide election with the highest x vote-getters, he got crushed. Then districting happened, and he only had to win the Castro and Lower (Upper?) Haight. To (roughly) quote the movie: "We only have to get the faggots and the hippies? We can do that!"

So I'm not so sure if it's succeeding within the system as much as it is being able to find a platform to get your voice out there, which will often require using your privilege in other capacities (largely class privilege, probably), but I don't know if it's 100% necessary.

[BROseidon]

The only reason the system bothers you is due to the suffering of the individuals.

I prefer to stick to the root of why we care about these things.

Edit: I really hate to say this but this is the kind of thing I think Kant was *hack* *cough* HRM

right

about. People, not society, are at the root of morality.

Disclaimer to say that I don't present these as objectively true, this is just the meaning I find for myself in ethics.

YES!

But you can't help those individuals without fixing the systems!

But... the system would be fixed if all individuals treated all other individuals with equal amounts of respect.

Now do you see why our positions are equally valid?

And I'm saying that's a naive way to approach it, because we don't live in a world where people hold explicit biases (as much). It's a lot more about subconscious bias and systems that disproportionately damage certain groups.

You won't fix the problem by fixing all the individuals. It's like trying to treat all the symptoms of the disease without treating the disease itself.

[BROseidon]

I'm honestly not sure how much you can treat people once they're set. How do you explain to an HR person that they're subconsciously discriminating against people with Black or Latino names?

I'd view it more as improving sanitation, etc, to prevent the plague from spreading.

[BROseidon]

Human Resources.

The people who do hiring at big companies.

[BROseidon]

Mathdino, are you saying that if you can't see someone you don't care about them?

It seems a little flip, but that's the core of the problem. People don't bother thinking about people they can't see. How many black people does an average upper class white male deal with in an average day? How familiar is he with what the suffering does to them? The people he sees, the people he knows, are the people who generally are benefiting from the status quo- the people who are harmed by that quo are literally out of sight, and thus out of mind. That's the ultimate point of ghettos- to separate out the people who stand as evidence of the system's damage from the people who have the power to change that system.

This is a really good point.

The average white person has something like <2% Black people in their social circle. I don't remember the exact number, but it's really low

[BROseidon]

The real question is whether there can be a manifest majority culture that still has respect for minority cultures. I believe the answer is yes, which is why I do not believe that there is any problem with saying "Merry Christmas" or anything like it. Accept the goodwill and move on.

The problem with the Christmas thing is that it's damage that has already been done and will continue to be done, so it doesn't currently fit in an accepting majority culture.

[BROseidon]

that seems to me like a whole new brand of special

And race is largely about how others categorize and treat you. If that weren't the case, well, I'd be called a terrorist a lot less.

[BROseidon]

Strawmanning doesn't make you look any better.

[BROseidon]

Oh my god, it's like everyone's intentionally trying to miss the point.

[BROseidon]

There's a pretty far jump from celebrating something and systemically forcing everyone around you to celebrate the same thing as you.

[BROseidon]

When you say happy holidays, what you are actually saying is "I think everyone should be celebrating Christmas right now, and I will make you celebrate it with me with a thinly veiled code word for Christmas."

Reading comprehension is hard, let's go shopping.

[BROseidon]

Although I guess if you're the type of person who wants to be outraged whenever minorities are outraged about anything short of genocide, I can see how you would miss that.

[BROseidon]

When you say happy holidays, what you are actually saying is "I think everyone should be celebrating Christmas right now, and I will make you celebrate it with me with a thinly veiled code word for Christmas."

Reading comprehension is hard, let's go shopping.

I mean, you could read all the other words around it where he complains that the Jewish celebration of Hannukah is elevated to Christmas-level and he finds that very condescending.

But you're right, your out of context line does support your position.

Although I guess if you're the type of person who wants to be outraged whenever minorities are outraged about anything short of genocide, I can see how you would miss that.

Okay, that's a cheaper shot than usual. What's on your mind?

1) ...That supports the point about it being forced-celebration of Christmas (Hannukah is only relevant because X-mas. This has already been beaten to death).

2) Because intentionally misreading the point of... this entire argument is incredibly exhausting and makes me not want to deal with you in any capacity. You (and others) are intentionally being antagonistic dicks about this (and across multiple threads), because apparently me/Shea/Psyche/anyone is not allowed to be outraged unless it's so bad that the majority pre-approves our outrage. Meanwhile, the fact that someone got offended and shut down a relatively inane activity gets completely vilified by absolutely everyone.

Does it not bother you that the shutdown of the popularity polls elicits more universal outrage on this site than the massacre/arguable genocide of African Americans in the US, or the systemic oppression of non-Protestants in the US? Because that's really, really fucked up.

But I guess your (and by "your," I broadly mean people on this site) fun is worth more than my colored(ish) body.

[BROseidon]

Yes, I want to take that step.

But taking that step requires not having to justify the existence of a problem in the first place (which is what you and others force people like me/Shea to do in the first place).

The simplest and most basic solution is increasing the number of vacation days and not having any default holidays be religious ones.

[BROseidon]

But taking that step requires not having to justify the existence of a problem in the first place (which is what you and others force people like me/Shea to do in the first place).

Just gonna quote this again to make sure I'm crystal clear about how much of a dick move you just pulled.

You don't make someone have to justify a problem over and over and then say, "Well, why aren't you offering solutions." You don't get to take the moral high ground there.

[BROseidon]

Yes, I want to take that step.

But taking that step requires not having to justify the existence of a problem in the first place (which is what you and others force people like me/Shea to do in the first place).

The simplest and most basic solution is increasing the number of vacation days and not having any default holidays be religious ones.

Are you talking about ideas like "students can take X number of days off per year and therefore can use them for whatever holiday"? Because there are problems with that plan.

Doesn't work as neatly with academic calendars.

I'd argue that a swap to the international system there the school year starts in January and ends in like December with more frequent, short breaks would make a lot of sense, but there would be a lot of resistance to that for other reasons (i.e., killing the internship)

[BROseidon]

There's a pretty far jump from celebrating something and systemically forcing everyone around you to celebrate the same thing as you.

I know right? Because "Happy Holidays", which can and has been said at any time of the year and is supposed to be inclusive, is forcing you to celebrate "something".

Hey Kublai, here's my response to 779

[BROseidon]

The simplest and most basic solution is increasing the number of vacation days and not having any default holidays be religious ones.

Do you wear a t-shirt saying "I am a Muslim/Jew?"

If not, how are people magically supposed to know who the minority dictates greetings can be said to? (This is best-case scenario from your pov, but anyway).

The only way to never offend anyone seems to be, in this scenario, to never say it.

Oh wait, that's systematic oppression of the majority.

No, it's not.

You're a fucking moron if you believe that's oppression. Linguistic codeswitching is a thing that... only minorities have to do, actually, because the standards of gay-sounding speech, AAVE, chicano English etc are considered "bad," whereas you can use almost any white accent and not get deemed incompetent right off the bat (the only exceptions are the ones associated with poor people, like Appalachian English)

[BROseidon]

There's a pretty far jump from celebrating something and systemically forcing everyone around you to celebrate the same thing as you.

I know right? Because "Happy Holidays", which can and has been said at any time of the year and is supposed to be inclusive, is forcing you to celebrate "something".

Hey Kublai, here's my response to 779

Well... Look, when I wrote 779, it was more aimed at the racial problems in America. I mean, there are literally are people dying over the issue and possibly more to come in the future. The safety and future of an entire race of people is a more pressing issue than pointing out how one of the few attempts by the hegemonous Christian religion to be acknowledging and tolerating of other religions at the time of their biggest religious celebration is invalid because it also includes themselves.

Freedom of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness are important.

Freedom from otherization isn't a thing.

Have you read the Ferguson thread?

Because there are people who don't think it's a problem there, also.

And the solutions there are relatively straightforward (body cams on cops, prosecution for cops external to the cop/DA system that incentivizes DAs not to indict, demilitarization of the police, increased sensitivity and use of force training for cops, etc)

[BROseidon]

you can use almost any white accent and not get deemed incompetent right off the bat

I make assumptions about people with long island/jersey accents :-/

I only do it if they have a fake tan and giant bulging muscles/look like Snooki.

[BROseidon]

I bet there are studies out there on how people judge people with certain dialects.

There are.

It's largely class driven (i.e., southern accents, because the south is poor, are viewed as "dumber" and "nicer." People with NE or NY accents are considered assholes, etc)

[BROseidon]

The simplest and most basic solution is increasing the number of vacation days and not having any default holidays be religious ones.

Do you wear a t-shirt saying "I am a Muslim/Jew?"

If not, how are people magically supposed to know who the minority dictates greetings can be said to? (This is best-case scenario from your pov, but anyway).

The only way to never offend anyone seems to be, in this scenario, to never say it.

Oh wait, that's systematic oppression of the majority.

No, it's not.

Oh, so what you're saying is it's not oppression to force the majority not to speak phrases about their festivals

in a benevolent manner because ...the minority wills it?

Good god, you are a straight up bigot. Seriously, I have a huge fucking problem with your "minority rules" bullshit.

The bolded part is the part that's wrong.

The reductio ad absurdum version of your argument is that it's religious oppression that Christians can't go around murdering non-believers.

[BROseidon]

Like if I told you you couldn't speak about your Armenian heritage in an educating manner the only difference between it and my point is that I am a majority member, yet you'd probably
claim I am discriminating against you.

The minority should be not be constantly appeased over the needs of the majority.

THE ENTIRE POINT IS THAT IT'S NOT BENEVOLENT. THE WHOLE POINT OF THIS EVERYTHING IS THAT THE "HOLIDAY SEASON" IS NOT A BENEVOLENT CREATION, BUT ALSO PART OF SYSTEMIC RELIGIOUS OPPRESSION.

GET THAT INTO YOUR FUCKING HEAD BEFORE I JUMP THROUGH THE INTERNET AND BEAT IT THERE.

[BROseidon]

Now watch as I get banned for "threatening violence" while TSO supports systemic violence against non-Protestants in the US.

Because in the US you're allowed to support systemic injustice so long as you just SAY you aren't. That makes everything okay!

[BROseidon]

You're right, I'm not. I'm relatively well off, all things considered.

That doesn't mean I'm not gonna call you out on supporting systems of oppression that hurt people.

Not getting to oppress others is not a form of oppression. Although I guess you're also the type of asshole who gets upset when people call you out for using "gay/retard/etc" in a derogatory way.

[BROseidon]

As a compromise, yes.

No marriage>gay marriage with straight marriage>no gay marriage with straight marriage

[BROseidon]

He doesn't :/

[BROseidon]

That doesn't mean I'm not gonna call you out on supporting systems of oppression that hurt people.

It's

Christmas

- a religious celebration where presents are given, decorations are put up, holidays are had, etc.

You actually thinking this is "a system of oppression that hurts people" is a sick joke which shows how skewed your worldview is.

I don't understand how you can be this dense.

The practicalities of what Christmas is are irrelevant. It could be anything from a giant orgy to an attempt to summon Satan, and the point would remain the same.

That non-Protestants in this country are forced to live their lives in a way acceptable to Protestants, and the forced celebration of Christmas by all is part of that system.

And Aegor's post is so fucking stupid that it's not worth responding to.

[BROseidon]

And I not-so-kindly point you to Hanukkah and Kwanza.

[BROseidon]

I'm only forced to celebrate it on the wrong day. Merry not-actually-Christmas, I guess :/

Jews are forced to celebrate Hanukkah as a pseudo-Christmas.

Kwanza was invented for people without Christmas.

Etc.

[BROseidon]

It's like you're asking me "So tell me more about how you're expected to not act gay when you're around straight people"

When my entire lexicon switches between gay and straight environments.

[BROseidon]

Thank you UT.

[BROseidon]

I don't understand

how you can be this dense.

The practicalities of what Christmas is are irrelevant. It could be anything from a giant orgy to an attempt to summon Satan, and the point would remain the same.

That non-Protestants in this country are forced to live their lives in a way acceptable to Protestants, and the forced celebration of Christmas by all is part of that system.

And Aegor's post is so fucking stupid that it's not worth responding to.

LITERALLY ad hominem this time. Literally. (at the bottom, the top isn't actually ad hominem, that's just an insult)

What are you arguing for, Bro? Amusement/diversion (my reason)? Because you're used to it? Because continuing to argue and insult people is the right thing to do? Self righteousness? To prove your point of view is superior?

To actually convince and educate people?

Because you're doing an absolutely terrible job at the latter, and in fact you're making your position seem even worse than it is as a result of the way you portray it. Which is self-righteous as fuck and a philosophy seemingly (note the 'seemingly') centred around an individual superiority complex. It's off-putting.

People who debate like you are why ignorant people mock social justice, brother. Good people with the potential to be great will always defend themselves against any generalisation about them being part of ANY system or negative pattern. This is for the same reason that people despise racist arguments made against them, or statements like "You gay people are all [can't come up with a way to finish this, insert adjective". Whatever prejudice you feel, whatever offence you're taking, when you go around shitting all over people, well

I won't say they feel the same offence you feel because I can't know that. But it's pretty damn similar, and it's why people don't change their beliefs. Because beliefs and ideas strike more to the core of one's identity than gender, race, cultural upbringing, sexuality, etc.

No one likes to be generalised or diagnosed.

Have a great day-that-happens-to-be-Christmas.

Before you go on in life, you should probably learn what ad hominem actually means. I called Aegor's post stupid b/c it wasn't germane to anything being discussed. I didn't attack him in any way.

[BROseidon]

I'm only forced to celebrate it on the wrong day. Merry not-actually-Christmas, I guess :/

Jews are forced to celebrate Hanukkah as a pseudo-Christmas.

Kwanza was invented for people without Christmas.

Etc.

And those inventions are a choice to partake in.

It's a choice. It's not oppression. Not even close.

Everything is a social construct.

Doesn't mean we don't use those social constructs to oppress people. We do it all the time, actually!

It doesn't matter whether or not I choose to partake in anything, Protestantism still exists and still is an oppressive force in our society!

[BROseidon]

Well, Telo, I read your post three times and I have no idea whose side you are on or why you quoted my post.

I'm not coming down on a 'side'. I'm just stating a truth.
I was expounding on what you said. That's why I quoted you.
I was just pointing out that Christmas started the exact same way as Kwaanza. As a co opt of another holiday.

Jesus wasn't born in December. The only reason we celebrate his birth in December is because the pagans were already having winter festivities during that time and Christians usurped their holiday.
The Christians tried unsuccessfully to get the pagans to stop their rituals. When they failed they decided to combine them. That's why we have Christmas trees (pagan symbolism in a Christian tradition) and Jesus' birth celebrated in December when according to biblical scholars he wasn't born in December. More likely it was late fall.

So who cares that Kwaanza is a rip off of Christmas since Christmas is a rip off too. And who knows, the pagan holidays were probably a rip off of something else. People like celebrating so happy holidays is not bullshit Christian normativity. Happy Holidays is bullshit human normativity because -people- like holidays. All people not just Christians

So Happy Holidays because they're all made up anyway.

STILL missing the point.

[BROseidon]

No one is forced to celebrate Christmas. Are you erecting a Christmas tree at gunpoint? Stringing up lights while your family is being held hostage? Or does it simply bother you to be in the presence of an open celebration of something that you dislike?

On 4th of July, Seattle has fireworks that are loud. I can hear them from my house. As an immigrant who cares nothing for wars of independence, I am being oppressed, what with the national holiday and all.

If I walk through Capitol Hill, I see rainbow flags. There is a state-sanctioned Gay Pride parade annually that closes down certain roads. As a member of the Westboro Baptist Church, I am being oppressed.



Your definition of oppression is so far removed from actual oppression -- the type of oppression for which I provided the OED definition in this very thread -- that it detracts from that actual oppression and makes you look intellectually puerile. You should really, really sotp.

1) Reduction to absurdity isn't relevant here. I bet you're the type of person who says "why didn't she fight back" about rape victims who freeze, too.

2) You're right, disruptive displays of patriotism do fit into a broader systemic oppression of immigrants!

3) Oppression happens against identities/cultures, not beliefs.

[BROseidon]

Also dictionary definitions mean little because of their lack of dynamism. No serious linguist will say, "Well, look in a dictionary" about anything.

[BROseidon]

Merry Christmas <3

Edit: (I also haven't read 95% of the thread but anyone who gets offended by 2 words- whichever of the two phrases - has some serious issues)

There are plenty of ways to make 2 words offensive.

Someone aggressively yelling "fucking faggot" at me unprovoked is a signal to run for my life, so...

[BROseidon]

Also dictionary definitions mean little because of their lack of dynamism. No serious linguist will say, "Well, look in a dictionary" about anything.

CAN YOU FUCKING READ YOU ILLITERATE TWAT

[BROseidon]

The rest isn't germane to the topic at hand. "I don't like how you're arguing" has nothing to do with the validity of the argument, and is generally a tool used by the oppressors to keep the oppressed in line.

[BROseidon]

I'm sure Montgomery had wished that African Americans had protested in ways that didn't wreck the municipal economy.

I'm sure the people dining at restaurants where sit-ins were happening wished the protests happened in a manner that didn't disrupt their lunch.

I know that straight people in the 70s wished that the LGBT community wasn't "so gay/promiscuous/etc"

etc etc

[BROseidon]

Also, it's funny how in the same post where you incorrectly calling me out on an ad hom, you spend the entire post ad homming me.

But you're in the majority so it's okay.

[BROseidon]

(well, not the entire post, but decent chunks of it)

[BROseidon]

That's valid. I let my emotions get the best of me there.

[BROseidon]

By the way, I forgot to mention that whether dictionaries are dynamic is related to the debate about linguistic prescriptivism (v. descriptivism, which is clearly what BRO is attempting to posit as preferable).

And there are linguists on both sides.

This is literally just not true.

Linguistics is implicitly descriptivist.

Source: Graduated with honors in linguistics.

[BROseidon]

Point 1 is irrelevant because force/coercion doesn't require violence. That's why I brought in the rape point; a lot of societal pressures and conditioning can force us to behave in certain ways sans violence.

Point 2... nothing really to add there

Point 3, fine, let's put it another way. They're not being oppressed because they aren't being forced to partake in the parade or see the parade, and the group in question used the proper means to get permits, etc. The parade itself isn't disruptive outside it's immediate vicinity (the way that, say, fireworks or rioting are), and the only issue in question is going to be certain roads getting shut down (where you will have workarounds you can use). And if you're going to argue that to members of the WBC, the approval of LGBT people's is oppressive, then you're being pedantic and just need to stop, because the argument for why that's bullshit is fairly straightforward.

Also, the issue here is that everyone knows Aegor is a huge troll. He baits people into ad homming him, and then they get banned. Honestly, if I were a mod, I would consider his behavior a bannable offense in the same way that it's illegal to jump in front of a car and sue the driver. I've had multiple people tell me "Aegor's a troll, stop feeding him," and other people have come into thread basically expressing the same sentiment. Me being outright aggressive towards him is no worse than him being troll-baity and passive-aggressive towards people. Yes, I shouldn't have said what I said, but he also shouldn't do 95% of what he's done in this thread.

[BROseidon]

"People who debate like you are why ignorant people mock social justice, brother" is at best condescending and at worse an attack on me as a person, so...

[BROseidon]

The point about the car was that Aegor baits people into getting into trouble (sort of like how people jump in front of cars to get the lawsuit).

[BROseidon]

Also dictionary definitions mean little because of their lack of dynamism. No serious linguist will say, "Well, look in a dictionary" about anything.

CAN YOU FUCKING READ YOU ILLITERATE TWAT

and Aegor trolls another ban

This isn't a new sentiment, either.

[BROseidon]

Being able to do that is an aspect of privilege.

I can't detach myself from my beliefs on sexuality, race, etc, because these are things that quite tangibly adversely affect me on a regular basis.

[BROseidon]

These aren't beliefs we're talking about here. We're talking about systems that hurt people. Which is the entire point of this thread, and something that gets missed over and over again.

[BROseidon]

wait, are you saying that not spending time with my family is a choice? I mean, wouldn't it be better if it would be more acceptable for people to be with their families and have Christmas as optional?

So.. Thanksgiving?

Thanksgiving is another really problematic holiday, but for other reasons. Like, y'know, genocide.

[BROseidon]

Everything is really bad - I propose we hold Armenian Day on Christmas, where instead of our usual celebrations, we buy Armenian people houses.

IIRC it was actually illegal for Armenians to have property in California for a really long time because of the wave of immigration that was in response to the genocide, so...

[BROseidon]

wait, are you saying that not spending time with my family is a choice? I mean, wouldn't it be better if it would be more acceptable for people to be with their families and have Christmas as optional?

So.. Thanksgiving?

Thanksgiving is another really problematic holiday, but for other reasons. Like, y'know, genocide.

Ugh. It's like you're trying to oppress us into becoming Jehovah Witnesses.

I mean, we could have a friends/family day that wasn't historically grounded in "that one time the White people didn't genocide the Native Americans." That would be pretty cool.

[BROseidon]

In some places (where I grew up and my parents still live) not celebrating = bad shit. So you have to celebrate to avoid bad shit.

Seriously? Where is this? I will go there next year and sit in the middle of town square and not celebrate because I want to see exactly what "bad shit" will happen.

Pick any place in the South other than, like, Atlanta or Austin. Like, literally any place.

[BROseidon]

I'mma pass that off to Cooldog, since he has experience in that domain.

[BROseidon]

I think I'll start my own religion which basically revolves around being anti-stuff I don't want to do.

Perhaps the same could be said of all religions!

[BROseidon]

I'm serious about this. If there is serious oppression, then let's get the ACLU on this.

If it's the "I'm feeling pressured to do something I don't wanna" type of oppression, then I sympathize, but I ain't gonna mobilize.

Florida is pretty bad. They're forcing religious displays on government property.

... By witch you mean they are forcing all religions to have equal representation on government property.

I find all religions being put on public display far more offensive than none at all. Furthermore the only reason why it was allowed is because butt-hurt weak-willed Christians enforced it.

Also the constitution.

[BROseidon]

Always brine first for juicer chicken!

[BROseidon]

Turkey is also just objectively terrible.

[BROseidon]

Turkey is amazing though

Anything that can be done to turkey can be done to chicken. And the chicken will taste better.

[BROseidon]

Turkey is also just objectively terrible.

I agree mostly, but I actually like thin sliced turkey on my sandwiches.

Sandwich meat is this weird space where shitty meats are fine because you just use mayo/mustard/etc to cancel out that it sucks.

[BROseidon]

I think turkey is sort of a white thing. (does that make me racist?)

White people have a propensity for eating bland food, so this checks out.

[BROseidon]

Also, pointing out that European and neo-European cuisines are generally bland relative to the rest of the world isn't really racism?

[BROseidon]

It's not their fault that they went thousands of years without spices!

[BROseidon]

None of those food statements are racist, except for the part where the chicken and watermelon thing is used to attack the intelligence of black people

[BROseidon]

Like, you didn't use it in that way in this context, but that's how it's often done

[BROseidon]

When you make fun of someone's whiteness, it's like making fun of someone for being well-off or for having a particularly good day. It just doesn't have the bite that making fun of someone for being poor or disabled or black.

Context really matters, and it surprises me that you don't see that.

Hey Psyche, don't you think positive racial stereotypes are also bad?

That would be germane if stereotypes about white people were a thing that mattered.

[BROseidon]

Uh...

1) Your response, broadly, isn't a response to what I said. Stereotypes, both positive and negative, don't exist about white people.That's part of being white that you don't get if you are any other race.

2) To describe my language as "harsh" is... well, uh...

3) "Whiteness" is only gaining those connotations in very narrow circles primarily of non-white people. Among the vast, vast majority of the population, that isn't the case. That's why we're having these conversations in the first place.

Go watch ANY news channel talk about the recent protests or the Mike Brown/Eric Garner deaths. Every news pundit is adamantly denying that it's about race.

The Tea Party, for the record, is a case where two things happen. One, they conflate race and class ("I'm not rich therefore I can't be privileged in a more subtle way"), and two, they're in the "2nd from the bottom" position where they are more concerned with staying above whoever is below them than actually improving their own state (there's some weird psychological shit that goes on here that makes people behave this way)

3) The ultimate goal is... yeah, ending racism. Right now, whiteness is a blank slate. If someone is white, you already do assume a set of cultural values and beliefs, but those are deemed as default and unvalued. It would be pretty great if everyone got that treatment, wouldn't it? It would be great if a resume with the name "Jamal" would get the same response rate as one with "John." It would be great if black people weren't incarcerated more extremely and at a higher rate for activities they do at no higher rate than white people (hi war on drugs). It would be great if the police wouldn't kill a black person in the US at the same rate lynchings happened in the south during Jim Crowe.

It would be nice to eliminate similar systems across gender, sexual orientation, religion, class, etc.

[BROseidon]

The fact that you would think anything else re: 3 is pretty fucking bullshit, btw.

[BROseidon]

Stereotypes, both positive and negative, don't exist about white people.

what

What is a white stereotype that isn't actually just a stereotype for something else (i.e., "white girls love starbucks" is less about white people and more about affluent people in burbs/cities)

[BROseidon]

The issue with compromise is that you need a more extreme initial position to have something to compromise towards

[BROseidon]

Each year I like Christmas less.

[BROseidon]

My and others' saying of "Happy Holidays" offends Shea, and I understand that, so I'll try to be more receptive to the situation around me, though for the most part I live in a small Christian town and thus I'll keep saying "Merry Christmas", but like, if I ever find myself amidst unfamiliar folk, I'll probably not say any sort of season's greeting. I don't think I would anyway, unless provoked.

This is the correct solution.

[BROseidon]

Also I'm going to just start greeting people with "HAPPY FEAST OF WINTERVEIL, CHAMPION!"

Real talk - I would want to punch you in the face if you greeted me this way.

Fucking worst thing ever.

[BROseidon]

I'm kind of enjoying it.

[BROseidon]

That's what Christmas is about!

Actually it's about converting pagans to Christianity. And capitalism.

But I digress...

[BROseidon]

Peter Theil, Milo Yiannapolis

If I could turn 2 gay people straight, these are literally the exact 2 I would choose.

[BROseidon]

Gregorian New year's also happens then.

Which is, shockingly also Christian in origin!

[BROseidon]

tl;dr of what's going on:

Shea's still correct

People are still being whiny about the whole thing

Now there's the added bonus of people being annoyed that we go through this every year.

[BROseidon]

That's what Christmas is about!

Actually it's about converting pagans to Christianity. And capitalism.

But I digress...

actually the pagans converted the christians
That tree's got nothing to do with baby jesus

A perfect 5/7 joke.

Also, while you all celebrate Christmas on your pagan day, I'mma celebrate pagan Christmas AND real Christmas.

[BROseidon]

I find it strange when people change lyrics to Christmas music to make it more inclusive.

Growing up, my school had a Kwanza song we would sing as part of the holiday season. It was a pretty bad song (like all holiday songs TBH), but hey I know the principles of Kwanza as a result.

[BROseidon]

Mina you're making excellent points. Christian-raised non-religious folks often forget how much a Christian upbringing changes their view of "culture". Plenty of people I know don't celebrate Christmas and it's annoyingly patronizing to insist that they are the problem.

Basically this.

The US is a super Protestant country, even in places that are not very religious, because so much of our core cultural values are rooted in Protestantism that you can't really escape it.

[BROseidon]

Also happy Kwanzaa everyone. Umoja is a good value, probably.