ITT we make fun of Amercan education

[Adel]

Well, United States colleges seem to work. Why don't we use that template? I have no background in educational theory, but it seems to be logical.

As Yos said, they work, basically, because the professors are under no compunction to pass you. You don't feel like going to class? Who gives a shit, it's your money. I'm just as happy to type an 'F' as an 'A' if that's what you earned. I'll bend over backwards to help my students learn the material if that's what they really want. And my pay doesn't depend one iota on how many passing grades I give out.

do you approve of college administrators using class attendance (both total enrollment and students' % of days attended) as inputs for determining tenure and pay?

[crywolf20084]

Well think about it this way... Why don't professors use the same standards about missing classes/using it as apart of your grade across the campus.

I can miss as many classes as I want for my chem stuff, you just can't make it up anything missed, but with my math class, miss more than 2 classes your attedance

grade

is now a B+.

And my Math prof wasn't joking when he said if the entire class gets all A's that he'd get a raise.

And the grading scale varies greatly too. My chem class anything from a 90-100 percent is an A.

I've had an English prof that based your entire grade for the semester on three pieces of work. And even there, it was hard pressed to get an A. No point system there.

And my Biology class last semester had the tradition 90-93% is an A- 94-100 is an A.

Same campus, same college, yet there is no consistency.

[Yosarian2]

That's because college professors have a lot of flexability about what to teach, how to teach it, and how to grade stuff, a lot more then individual teachers in high school do. Which IMHO isn't a bad thing; when you get a really bad professor it makes it even worse, but giving a good college professor that kind of flexability makes the class a lot better.

[The Fonz]

One site I found mentioned the national average is 54%.

As I said, that is the 5 year graduation rate, some more people do graduate eventually just not in 5 years.

Well, I can't find an overall figure for the UK... but out of the top 100 UK universities (there are 113 in total) there are precisely two who have a graduation rate under 70%. And the top fifth of UK unis have graduation rates over 90%.

[JDodge]

Well think about it this way... Why don't professors use the same standards about missing classes/using it as apart of your grade across the campus.

I can miss as many classes as I want for my chem stuff, you just can't make it up anything missed, but with my math class, miss more than 2 classes your attedance

grade

is now a B+.

And my Math prof wasn't joking when he said if the entire class gets all A's that he'd get a raise.

And the grading scale varies greatly too. My chem class anything from a 90-100 percent is an A.

I've had an English prof that based your entire grade for the semester on three pieces of work. And even there, it was hard pressed to get an A. No point system there.

And my Biology class last semester had the tradition 90-93% is an A- 94-100 is an A.

Same campus, same college, yet there is no consistency.

It's because colleges aren't about teaching their students, they're about making money. So really, they don't give that much of a shit because it's too much of a hassle for most people to transfer. It's the same reason why they try and get people with high test scores to make their college appear more prestigious.

[Thok]

Same campus, same college, yet there is no consistency.

Why should there be? Even in the same course, professors don't agree on what topics should be emphasized, because different topics are more important/interesting to them in their own work.

A lot of what college is for is to get people to figure out how to manage their schedule, decide what tasks should be prioritized, and assess what their supervisors want from them. All of those tasks are important in the real world.

[Trojan Horse]

A reply to crywolf's latest post, from a professor's perspective:

Well think about it this way... Why don't professors use the same standards about missing classes/using it as apart of your grade across the campus.

I can miss as many classes as I want for my chem stuff, you just can't make it up anything missed, but with my math class, miss more than 2 classes your attedance

grade

is now a B+.

Too many professors. Too many different types of classes. No way could the school reach a consensus on what kind of standard to use.

And my Math prof wasn't joking when he said if the entire class gets all A's that he'd get a raise.

If everyone in one of my classes got A's, that would raise some serious eyebrows (unless the class had just a few students). I definitely wouldn't get a raise, and if they thought there was some hanky-panky going on, I just might get fired.

No school should have a policy where extremely high overall grades can lead to the teacher getting a raise. Too tempting to fudge the numbers.

And the grading scale varies greatly too. My chem class anything from a 90-100 percent is an A.

I've had an English prof that based your entire grade for the semester on three pieces of work. And even there, it was hard pressed to get an A. No point system there.

And my Biology class last semester had the tradition 90-93% is an A- 94-100 is an A.

Well, I use slightly different grading scales for each of my classes. Depends on what the curve turns out to be for each class. Same comment as before: different kinds of classes may need different standards.

Same campus, same college, yet there is no consistency.

No way to avoid it. Live with it.

[Goatrevolt]

50-60%? WOW.

when i first read this I thought you meant college students spent 50-60% of their time playing WoW.

This is also true...

[Goatrevolt]

do you approve of college administrators using class attendance (both total enrollment and students' % of days attended) as inputs for determining tenure and pay?

I personally don't think that's a great measurement. Professors can simply require attendance as part of the grade and have nearly perfect attendance from anyone who at least cares about their grade at all. On the other hand, I have statistically done quite a bit better in classes that did require attendance. I subconsciously justify skipping class by basically blatantly lying to myself and saying that one class isn't going to really affect how well I perform or how much I learn in that class for the entire semester (basically true). The only problem is that I tell myself this lie many times throughout the semester, and end up skipping a lot of classes, that collectively do affect my grade.

I'm all for stricter professors and professors who require attendance simply because I personally am more motivated to succeed in those classes (and do so). I just don't think that's a great way to determine the worth of a professor. The best professor I've had (a physics teacher freshman year), for example, did not require attendance and was relaxed about turning in homework. He simply was an excellent teacher and was very interested in helping students learn. Some of my friends were mechanical engineers, and they said he actually held a review session for one of their ME tests (despite not being an ME professor) and they were able to easily understand and ace the test afterward. That right there is the mark of an excellent professor who cares about students and how much they learn, and should be given great pay/tenure, etc.

I think the best way to determine pay/tenure is to use student reviews. Most classes require you to fill out an anonymous review of the professor at the end of the year. I think those are a great way to gauge how well a professor is doing. I use student reviews to decide which teacher to take if I have an option between different professors, and it hasn't failed me yet.

Well think about it this way... Why don't professors use the same standards about missing classes/using it as apart of your grade across the campus.

I can miss as many classes as I want for my chem stuff, you just can't make it up anything missed, but with my math class, miss more than 2 classes your attedance

grade

is now a B+.

And my Math prof wasn't joking when he said if the entire class gets all A's that he'd get a raise.

And the grading scale varies greatly too. My chem class anything from a 90-100 percent is an A.

I've had an English prof that based your entire grade for the semester on three pieces of work. And even there, it was hard pressed to get an A. No point system there.

And my Biology class last semester had the tradition 90-93% is an A- 94-100 is an A.

Same campus, same college, yet there is no consistency.

I think the lack of formal rules in how a class should be run is generally a good thing. For example, my computer science classes are almost always setup such that projects make up the majority of your grade. If the university had in place a system that 50% of every class grade must be taken from tests, for example, then the CS department would be forced to either place quite a bit less emphasis on projects, despite that being the focal point of their classes, or find a way to translate projects into tests (Hey, this test is actually a take home programming assignment!)

Most classes I've had run the same grading scale in terms of A-F (with some minor variety), but even if a rigid scale were in place, professors could still create their own scale simply by curving. I don't think there's any way to regulate that effectively and I'm not sure it's worthwhile to do so.

I also agree fully with what Thok said. One of my computer science professors spends a decent portion of class periods simply talking about how wrong other CS professors are because they think X should be taught instead of Y (or making fun of the business department).

[Caboose]

(8:26:13 PM) soccerh888: someone test me on polyatomic ions
(8:30:56 PM) soccerh888:

tartrate

I actually don't see that one much in Chem, but it's C₄H₄O₆^2-
Ones I see most are: sulfate/ite, carbonate, nitrate/ite, oxalate, hydroxide, hydronium, phosphate, chlorate, acetate, and ammonium

[Caboose]

Just to prove that American education doesn't completely suck, this is just off the top of my head (don't make fun of me too much if I miss something):

(8:25:56 PM) CryWolf20084 entered the room.
(8:25:56 PM) soccerh888 entered the room.
(8:25:56 PM) CaffieneDeity entered the room.
(8:25:56 PM) Porochaz74 entered the room.
(8:25:56 PM) jdodge1019 entered the room.
(8:25:56 PM) jathan84 entered the room.
(8:25:56 PM) The Fritzler entered the room.
(8:25:56 PM) everlong1289 entered the room.
(8:26:06 PM) soccerh888: srsly tho
(8:26:07 PM) CryWolf20084: *shoots Jathan down*
(8:26:13 PM) soccerh888: someone test me on polyatomic ions
(8:26:16 PM) jathan84: k
(8:26:18 PM) jathan84: bromate

BrO₃^-

(8:26:19 PM) soccerh888: woo
(8:26:23 PM) soccerh888: umm
(8:27:00 PM) soccerh888: ah nvm
(8:27:08 PM) soccerh888: bromate's not on my list
(8:27:14 PM) soccerh888: we only have a few terms
(8:27:17 PM) soccerh888: like the sulfides

Sulfide is S^2-, but it's only one atom

(8:27:18 PM) soccerh888: nitrides
(8:27:20 PM) jathan84: citrate

C₆H₅O₇^3-

(8:27:32 PM) soccerh888: and a few assorted ones
(8:27:37 PM) soccerh888: like permangante

MnO₄^-

(8:27:39 PM) soccerh888: ammonium

NH₄⁺

(8:28:08 PM) jathan84: thiosulfate

S₂O₃^2-

(8:28:15 PM) jathan84: that is a sulfide
(8:28:22 PM) soccerh888: I MEAN LIKE SULFITE AND SULFAT Sulfate =

SO₄^2-

, Sulfite =

SO₃^2-

(8:28:23 PM) soccerh888: E
(8:29:05 PM) jathan84: fine i'll make this easier on you
(8:29:08 PM) jathan84: pick 2 out of 3
(8:29:15 PM) jdodge1019: don't bug him
(8:29:17 PM) jdodge1019: he's doing horribly
(8:29:19 PM) jathan84: thiocyanate

SCN^-

, phosphite

answer soccer gave is correct

, tartrate

previous post

(8:30:15 PM) soccerh888: um
(8:30:26 PM) soccerh888: this is an educated guess on phosphite
(8:30:30 PM) soccerh888: PO3
(8:30:36 PM) soccerh888: charge of -3?
(8:30:38 PM) jathan84: yes
(8:30:41 PM) jathan84: k
(8:30:41 PM) soccerh888: woo
(8:30:42 PM) jathan84: 1 more

other log picks up

[ShadowLurker]

You obviously googled

[Caboose]

You obviously googled

Or I obviously just know them?
I got an 800 on the Chem SAT II. I'm not as stupid as my username would suggest.

[JDodge]

You obviously googled

Or I obviously just know them?
I got an 800 on the Chem SAT II. I'm not as stupid as my username would suggest.

omg cheater

i am going to report you to the COLLEGE BOARD

[klebian]

You obviously googled

Or I obviously just know them?
I got an 800 on the Chem SAT II. I'm not as stupid as my username would suggest.

you didn't really prove that "american education doesn't completely suck"
you just told everyone you like trying to show off...

[SilverPhoenix]

You obviously googled

Or I obviously just know them?
I got an 800 on the Chem SAT II. I'm not as stupid as my username would suggest.

you didn't really prove that "american education doesn't completely suck"
you just told everyone you like trying to show off...

More specifically, you're trying to show off with

a standardized test score

. Example: I know someone who got a 2390 on the SAT. He definitely isn't the smartest person I know, and is lazier than I am (and I'm pretty damn lazy, unfortunately). Oh, and we roughly got into the same caliber engineering schools (His highest was Cornell, mine was Johns Hopkins).

Just saying. Really, once you get into college and get the credit, the scores don't matter anymore. Although the college credit

really

really

helps if you get a lot. I'm loving my 21 credits that I don't have to take boring, 100+ person college classes for.

Note: AP credit is literally the best thing about the American education. If they had things like along the way (like as far back as elementary school) where I could skip classes with tests/demonstrations of knowledge, I would have been so interested in school that probably wouldn't have become so lazy. XD

[Yosarian2]

Um, he only referenced his standardized test score when Jath didn't believe that he actually knew chem. Really people...

[klebian]

pretty sure jath was being facetious
this thread was not made seeing if others knew the polyatomic ions too; i'm sure a good amount of us knew those (i knew all except for tartrate but posting that in this thread was quite pointless)

[Adel]

I know someone who got a 2390 on the SAT.

lol.

back in my day, 1600 was the max score. I guess you kids really are lots smarter than we were.

[Caboose]

Um, he only referenced his standardized test score when Jath didn't believe that he actually knew chem. Really people...

^This.

back in my day, 1600 was the max score.

...until they added that stupid essay.

[shaft.ed]

I know someone who got a 2390 on the SAT.

lol.

back in my day, 1600 was the max score. I guess you kids really are lots smarter than we were.

they were trying to keep the scores from falling, so instead of adjusting the curve they just added 800 points

[Yosarian2]

I know someone who got a 2390 on the SAT.

lol.

back in my day, 1600 was the max score. I guess you kids really are lots smarter than we were.

When they figured out that most people who show up in college are unable to write their way out of a paper bag, they added a third section, writing, for another 800 points.

[scotmany12]

And yet most colleges don't even look at the writing section.

[Yosarian2]

And yet most colleges don't even look at the writing section.

Really? That's bizzare. Especally considering how many smart college students I knew who were just so incredibly bad at writing they had to take the freshman Expository Writing class 2 or 3 times before they passed it.

[animorpherv1]

++ for Candian Education