Texas Hold'em - what would you do?

[Davsto]

I want to say "but it worked so it wasn't a bad call" because the reaction would be great but I'm not sure if it's worth it

[Kmd4390]

I want to say "but it worked so it wasn't a bad call" because the reaction would be great but I'm not sure if it's worth it

It's not

[Zachrulez]

I wouldn't have called that pre-flop, but once you caught your 7s, the hand was yours. You got lucky. Lucky isn't a bad thing in poker, but don't count on it too often.

I'm actually shocked that with as much as I've learned about the game since this, my answer doesn't change. I was reading the scenario going "oh God, I hope my past self didn't encourage this play".

Always be wary when you have three of a kind in case the other guy already had a pair. Might not happen often, but when it does you can lose big.

Being full housed by a pocket pair is not something I'd be worried about happening often enough to be discouraged by playing a set all out. If they have a big pair it's possible to put them on the full after the flop if you pay enough attention to how it was played pre flop. If they boat you with a smaller pair, they just hit a better hand than you, it's going to be difficult to fold a set in that situation unless you have a great read on your opponent.

[Kmd4390]

I was playing in a WSOP event at the Rio and had 77. No one raised pre flop before me, so I three bet. Two callers. Flop comes out Q87. Guy in front of me bets six times the big blind. Keeping in mind he didn't raise pre flop, I figure he's at two pair at best. I min raise to isolate. Other guy folds. This guy goes all in for more than I had. I call. He's got 88. So I'm with prana. It happens and sucks when it does. Still no way I should have folded or anything though.

[Zachrulez]

I'd probably just call a raise with medium pair too. You can reasonably eliminate QQ with someone that just calls your raise cause most people will reraise with QQ. 88 though makes sense to just call so it's a possibility and I'd probably be a tad uncomfortable facing a big bet in that situation.

That said I doubt I'd lay that hand down either. (The actual odds of an overset against you are so low that it would be foolhardy to fold a set without 100% certainty that your opponent holds a larger one.)

[Kmd4390]

I dunno, I just don't like those hands when you're not heads up. The odds of an over card on the board being enough to beat you are just so much higher with more people in there. Any pair under 10s I'm much more likely to either raise or fold than to just call. I've learned from that and a few other hands that not everyone thinks like that though. My league's main event with a Vegas trip on the line, a guy did the same thing with 9s. I checked my big blind with A8. Hit top pair with the 8, thought I was good. When he came over the top I figured he was just trying to steal the pot like he'd done a couple of times already. And of course I ended up going out on that hand.

The one that really surprised me though was when someone did it with Jacks. Again, I'm big blind and hit top pair. I had 10 5. Big tournament in Atlantic City and only two tables left so blinds and even antes are huge and every pot matters. I put out a min bet on the flop which was probably 20% of my stack. Guy calls again. Dud on the turn. I double my bet. He calls. Dud on the river. I'm all in. He calls and flips up the Jacks. I bubbled.

I just feel like it's such a waste of those hands to call and then there's like a queen or something on the board and three or four players with cards. You've got to figure you're beat. I've heard people say they're doing it because they're hoping for the set and will fold if it doesn't come but that's no better than playing suitedcards because "lol suited". (Exception being a small blind or maybe even button with no raises then maybe it's not the worst thing in the world). I'd much rather go heads up and actually win the pot than hope to get lucky.

[PranaDevil]

I wouldn't have called that pre-flop, but once you caught your 7s, the hand was yours. You got lucky. Lucky isn't a bad thing in poker, but don't count on it too often.

I'm actually shocked that with as much as I've learned about the game since this, my answer doesn't change. I was reading the scenario going "oh God, I hope my past self didn't encourage this play".

Always be wary when you have three of a kind in case the other guy already had a pair. Might not happen often, but when it does you can lose big.

Being full housed by a pocket pair is not something I'd be worried about happening often enough to be discouraged by playing a set all out. If they have a big pair it's possible to put them on the full after the flop if you pay enough attention to how it was played pre flop. If they boat you with a smaller pair, they just hit a better hand than you, it's going to be difficult to fold a set in that situation unless you have a great read on your opponent.

If your three of a kind is one card in hand, and two on a table, you have trips, not a set. A set is two in hand, one on the table, as a set is legitimately stronger than trips.

I was playing in a WSOP event at the Rio and had 77. No one raised pre flop before me, so I three bet. Two callers. Flop comes out Q87. Guy in front of me bets six times the big blind. Keeping in mind he didn't raise pre flop, I figure he's at two pair at best. I min raise to isolate. Other guy folds. This guy goes all in for more than I had. I call. He's got 88. So I'm with prana. It happens and sucks when it does. Still no way I should have folded or anything though.

The very second that guy donk bet, I'd have mucked those 7s. Any half decent player with a hand checks to the original raiser, let them bet, then raise. The fact he jammed on the flop tells me that first, he's an awful player (and to be to his left on a cash table), and two, he has a solid hand.

The one that really surprised me though was when someone did it with Jacks. Again, I'm big blind and hit top pair. I had 10 5. Big tournament in Atlantic City and only two tables left so blinds and even antes are huge and every pot matters. I put out a min bet on the flop which was probably 20% of my stack. Guy calls again. Dud on the turn. I double my bet. He calls. Dud on the river. I'm all in. He calls and flips up the Jacks. I bubbled.

In fairness, the jacks were fine (nobody knows how to play jacks, they're on the edge of what you should do), playing T5 was where you went wrong... never play T5. Even if it flats round to you in the big blind, unless you flop a house, muck that shit first chance you get, as even a single pair is likely beaten by someone else.

I just feel like it's such a waste of those hands to call and then there's like a queen or something on the board and three or four players with cards. You've got to figure you're beat. I've heard people say they're doing it because they're hoping for the set and will fold if it doesn't come but that's no better than playing suitedcards because "lol suited". (Exception being a small blind or maybe even button with no raises then maybe it's not the worst thing in the world). I'd much rather go heads up and actually win the pot than hope to get lucky.

Nah, if you're on the button and it's flatted all the way round, perfect time to raise big. Clearly (bar possibly the first caller, so if you know they're a good player, don't do this) nobody thinks much of their hand, so most will be folding, if not all, to any decent sized raise. If your hand is shot, then muck, but anything semi decent you want less people in there, even 79 suited, raise that because with everyone in, and a flop coming down 68T, another guy could have, say 9T or 9J, and if the card they need appears, you're stuffed. But a raise pre should get rid of that hand.

[Zachrulez]

I dunno, I just don't like those hands when you're not heads up. The odds of an over card on the board being enough to beat you are just so much higher with more people in there. Any pair under 10s I'm much more likely to either raise or fold than to just call. I've learned from that and a few other hands that not everyone thinks like that though. My league's main event with a Vegas trip on the line, a guy did the same thing with 9s. I checked my big blind with A8. Hit top pair with the 8, thought I was good. When he came over the top I figured he was just trying to steal the pot like he'd done a couple of times already. And of course I ended up going out on that hand.

The one that really surprised me though was when someone did it with Jacks. Again, I'm big blind and hit top pair. I had 10 5. Big tournament in Atlantic City and only two tables left so blinds and even antes are huge and every pot matters. I put out a min bet on the flop which was probably 20% of my stack. Guy calls again. Dud on the turn. I double my bet. He calls. Dud on the river. I'm all in. He calls and flips up the Jacks. I bubbled.

I just feel like it's such a waste of those hands to call and then there's like a queen or something on the board and three or four players with cards. You've got to figure you're beat. I've heard people say they're doing it because they're hoping for the set and will fold if it doesn't come but that's no better than playing suitedcards because "lol suited". (Exception being a small blind or maybe even button with no raises then maybe it's not the worst thing in the world). I'd much rather go heads up and actually win the pot than hope to get lucky.

Gotta be careful with "Top pair" because overpairs are a thing. Some people do like to trap with a good pair. Frankly I think it's begging to get yourself beat with 2 pair or something else like a straight or a flush when you do that but some people apparently think it's a money move.

Top pair weak kicker, good kicker, and bottom two pair are hands that people play like they're invincible and it's actually pretty easy to lose holding those kind of hands. They are not really good all in plays most of the time and the pot size should be managed with them if possible.

If your three of a kind is one card in hand, and two on a table, you have trips, not a set. A set is two in hand, one on the table, as a set is legitimately stronger than trips.

I use the words interchangeably. It's not important unless you actually need the words to make the distinction that "trips" can't beat a "set" in the regards that making "trips" against a "set" turns a "set" into a full house. I don't need the words the understand that.

[Kmd4390]

Prana, you'd really fold there when 88 and QQ were the only hands that could possibly be ahead?

On the 10 5, I don't fold where I can check. I was big blind with no raises. When I flopped top pair, it was a pretty decent hand.

The last one, I don't necessarily disagree in cash play, but in a tournament, tighter play is usually better.

Zach, yeah but people usually bet big pocket pairs. Two pair, sure. That's one thing I need to be better at reading especially with a weak board.

[PranaDevil]

Prana, you'd really fold there when 88 and QQ were the only hands that could possibly be ahead?

When he ships straight into me after the flop? Definitely. Clearly a complete donk bet where he was so excited he had a great hand that couldn't be beaten. Seen the same thing happen regularly enough to get out of there and lose cheap.

On the 10 5, I don't fold where I can check. I was big blind with no raises. When I flopped top pair, it was a pretty decent hand.

T5 with top pair is still massively weak. By all means check if you are the big blind, but unless the flop gives you a house or something, you're behind. T5 is one of the worst hands possible as even if you hit, you're still losing to so many other options.

The last one, I don't necessarily disagree in cash play, but in a tournament, tighter play is usually better.

Yeah, as a general rule I'll agree. But even then, stealing chips is great for keeping ahead of the curve, even with mediocre hands. Plus, the less people seeing the flop with you, the stronger your hand. I'd much rather see a flop with a single idiot who played AA badly, than a flop with 9 others who hold crap but were priced in. For a start, reading other players is easier if there are less in, as they should have better than average hands if you made them pay, thus the chance of some idiot with A4 off is reduced then if you let them get in cheap.

A good general rule is never flat the blind pre. Always raise or fold. If it's not worth the raise, don't play it.

Zach, yeah but people usually bet big pocket pairs. Two pair, sure. That's one thing I need to be better at reading especially with a weak board.[/quote]

[Kmd4390]

The odds are much higher he's got two pair or a strong ace though. If you assume every strong bet has you beat when you're holding a monster, you're going to end up folding almost every hand. I say this as a player who is usually tightest at the table.

I still disagree on top pair being weak in that spot, but I have nothing more to add on that.

[PranaDevil]

Nah, two pair isn't as strong, especially if you play the 7s right to make people with bad hands fold (as you did). You know the hands out there are pocket pairs, suited connectors, and idiots who think any ace is a good ace. That means the hands someone is jamming on you with are 78 suited (two pair) or they've hit a set. Maybe the odd chance of over pairs, but that would be stupidly dumb.

I'd say the higher likelihood based on play is someone set mining and getting lucky. Anyone slightly decent plays any other hand differently, and a bad player would be inclined to all in with the over pairs right out of the gare, or call to the river only to wonder why their aces were cracked.

As for the T5, you're losing to over pairs, two pair, sets, straights, flushes , top pair with better kicker... T5 will lead you up shit creek a hell of a lot more than it will lead to a win, and the rule of thumb should always be to ask yourself what you are planning to hit with it.

[Kmd4390]

You really don't think AQ would be in there?

[PranaDevil]

AQ is a slight possibility, but the sudden all in makes me think unlikely as the idiot willing to donk bet against you on the flop is the same guy who would all in pre with AQ before anyone else has bet.

[Kmd4390]

*shrug*. A lot of people go nuts when they hit a flop

[LlamaFluff]

I think the call on the shove is the right thing. QQ is out of the range unless they are ultra tight, you are more hoping they didn't flop better set or aren't going crazy with some open ended/flush draw. Opening for that much reps a hand they don't want someone chasing to more than anything else (unless flush draw on board)

KQ, A8, TT... maybe some T9 or a random AX if there is a flush draw on the board where they have you on a one pair hand and even if you call they are still on what they presume to be a 40-60 at worst. Essentially the way the hand played the only thing you are dead in the water with is someone who is overbetting 88.

[PranaDevil]

Except for the fact that someone who flats pre, calls a raise, then open jams on the flop instead of checking to the original raiser is already a crap player. QQ is entirely in their range of "catching" someone (in their head).

My rule is that when someone raises before the original raiser on the flop, is they're a crap player (true more often than not by far) and they have a killer hand and haven't a clue how to play poker being calling and going all in.

It's not just what's out, it's how things happened pre that are very important too. And all signs point to "donk that landed a set".

[Zachrulez]

The odds are much higher he's got two pair or a strong ace though. If you assume every strong bet has you beat when you're holding a monster, you're going to end up folding almost every hand. I say this as a player who is usually tightest at the table.

I still disagree on top pair being weak in that spot, but I have nothing more to add on that.

I'm not saying it's weak per say, I'm just saying it's not as strong of a hand as people think, or as strong as people seem to like to play it. Cautious play will save you a lot of money.

[LlamaFluff]

Where player was matters. With two callers it would matter where the player sat. If they were to act after you I could buy a QQ limps more than if the BB flat called raise and call with QQ where three betting there is a good move. Even then I think you put the player on AQs over a set that is beating you after that flop. Because what is making that shove? AQ, AA, KQ, maybe JJ if they have a read on you, any two pair, if two to a flush on board a lot more can justify the shove as well.

I think it remains that the reaction to the shove represents someone who wants to push you off a hand, which rarely is something bottom set is in trouble against. Why does 88 jam there? Scared of a straight/flush? Wants to try and bait AQ to call? You are only losing to two hands there, and quite a few will play that similarly. I know im not great at this though, I just make minimal money on low stake tables and tournaments, but if a call bets and then jams your raise I think that is hard to get out of in that spot.

[PranaDevil]

With the first bit about where the player is matters, that's true, but as said, it was flat called pre flop until the raise, therefore anyone with anything slightly decent should be raising (though... outside of maybe calling early to induce a later raise from someone else, there's a solid argument to be made that flat calling the BB pre is a bad move to begin with as you get zero information beyond the fact you priced everyone in. If I'm on the button with T5 and 7 other players have called the BB, I'll call that shit, as if I do hit somewhat decent (flop a house, flush draw, top pair with the 5 etc), I know that both no bugger has anything, and I got in cheap. If I miss, or have hit weak, then it doesn't take a huge raise to find that out on the flop either.

However, it reads like the QQ could limp after and you could understand that. Personally, anyone going to the flop and simply flat calling with QQ (that wasn't a flat call in the UTG or UTG+1 position aiming to trap) is a bad player straight away, as you not only gain no information, you are looking to get screwed over hard by someone hitting 2 pair, or trying to hit a straight or flush just because they got in cheap. So, again, a decent player wouldn't be there with QQ come the flop, only a bad player.

As for the second bit, I'd argue that the shove is less someone wanting to get you off a hand (that's something a good player would do, and they would know better timing. Namely let the original raiser c-bet the flop, then go over the top for the maximum value in getting you off the hand, plus the knowledge that you haven't hit if you check behind), and much more someone seeing they hit big, and just going for it in the hope you'll call because you had something pre.

Yes, other stuff does happen, and every occurrance can happen as everyone plays different, and even the pros will change it up to try and confuse each other (plus deliberately playing badly can be a viable tactic to confuse people. I'd damned sure do so against someone like Hellmuth as it makes sense to do so), but when it comes to donks they will always, without fail, donk bet, and the easiest way to spot a bad player is to see the one who will call a pre-flop raise, only to then raise themselves before the original raiser. Barring trying to give off an aura of a bad player to trap people later on, it's an instant sign the person doesn't understand how to obtain information on other player's hands, and is, thus, a donk.

[LlamaFluff]

Like I said, you can get out of it, and its clear the player isn't the best. Problem is there are so many hands that he would probably shove that you are still beating. Its one of a few situations:

1) He has a good draw
2) He is on AA or KK
3) He is on AQ, KQ, QJ
4) Two pair
5) Has QQ or 88

I think you have to assume scenario 2 and 3 are the most likely situations with the post-flop bet. If he was on something he was sure is winning, he wouldn't lead out and just raise after the c-bet. When he jams a re-raise you have to be nervous, but I think you have value either way. Anything but QQ/88 you have dominated, and I think he has that at such a small percent of the time that you want to make the call. AA, KK, AQ, two pair... all of them probably act the exact same way. Maybe a third of the time you are drawing dead, but I think you are at least hitting a 50% chance to win.

[PranaDevil]

The reason you're assuming he wouldn't lead out, is the very reason he "is" leading out. A decent player, any decent player, would never lead out in front of the original raiser. I could see an argument for a small "test the waters" raise if you have a really strong hand, to also make it seem like you're a bad player and get them to re-raise even more. However the fact they flatted pre, then open jammed the flop tells me they "know" they have a killer hand, because they are a donk, and that is cut and dry donk play.

Any ace, in donk land, is worth playing stupidly big pre-flop (A7? Yeah, get all the chips in), same with pocket Kings apart from the odd idiot who has the mindset of "I want to most possible players in this hand to get money off them all", they might flat it pre, and then wonder why their Aces or Kings got busted, while loudly berating everyone else for "playing shitty hands" (had a fair share of them in the casino, from both sides of the table).

I mean, I can understand why someone would still call (the "I've got a set!" mentality), but considering it's a small pot at that stage (flatted all round, then a 3x raise that had nobody else in it), I'd fold that unless I was desperate for a double up, and even then it would depend on where I was. If I had a long gap before being a blind again, then it's safe to muck, while if I'm due to be the blind in just a couple of turns (say, a 6 handed table), then yeah, under 10 BB and needing chips, I'd call and hope. But if I had chips to play with, no way am I gifting them to the super donk. I'll bide my time and let him gift me his chips.

[LlamaFluff]

There is just a lot of information we don't know at this point. If its a loose player, its a snap call. If its a tight player you might want to get out of there. If you are getting some sort of 2:1 odds due to stack sizes, I think you have to call.

While I might be scared of a set there, you are looking at probably 20-30 big blinds in dead money. If you have less than that I think you have to call just for pot odds unless you are ultra-confident you are up against a better set. I know I get too into pot odds when making calls at times, unless you think he has the better set over half the time, I think you have to make that call.

Maybe if it was A87 flop its different since that removes a big pocket pair from jam range, but I just don't see how its not long term +EV to make that call putting him on AA, KK, AQ, A8, Q8, T9 etc half the time. He signifies strength, but when only two hands beat you and quite a few more would make that shove, especially out of a loose player. If its an ultra-tight players, sure. If you are near a pay bubble you see as significant, sure. Most of the time though, even if you have a donk read, I think odds say call. There is just so much other stuff he can easily make that shove with and be really confident he is way ahead with.

[PranaDevil]

Think this is one of those agree to disagree situations. Though I do agree regarding the fact if it is a loose player you should call. Just figure a loose player would have already bet in that position.