Game of Thrones

[DeathNote]

Spoiler:

I like how in depth the characters are and I won't deny that you are correct but from a producer and sadistic fuck perspective, Sansa should be murdered by Arya. It would have a huge negative impact and shock factor which is one of the major reasons the series is successful... on film at least.

Just saying... Martin would kill someone like that not because of their own person reasons but because it makes for a entertaining story.

[Claus]

Spoiler:

I like how in depth the characters are and I won't deny that you are correct but from a producer and sadistic fuck perspective, Sansa should be murdered by Arya. It would have a huge negative impact and shock factor which is one of the major reasons the series is successful... on film at least.

Just saying... Martin would kill someone like that not because of their own person reasons but because it makes for a entertaining story.

Spoiler: What would Martin do

I definitely agree with you that it would definitely be extremely shocking and sadistic. And I also agree with you that the TV series is successful because of the shock factor (along with very high production values)

That said, let me defend Martin a little bit here. If you read ASoIaF carefully, you will come to the conclusion that Martin is NOT a sadist. Even when he is writing a violent and many times unjust story,
he still is a romantic at heart.

He wrote in the books that "men's lives have meaning, not their deaths". He also has the scene where Brienne decides to stand her ground against seven bandits, knowing full well that it would lead to her death,
because she felt that the had to protect a house full of defenseless peasants ("I have no choice and no chance"). He wrote time and again about Jaime lamenting on how a true knight should act, while reflecting on
Brienne and Loras. The Hound becomes a silent monk to atone for his sins. I could go on and on, but this is getting pretty long.

To conclude, I could imagine D&D choosing to do this on the show. But Martin? No way -- he wrote five huge books about his personal views of how a fantasy story should be
written (on his own words "What is Aragorn's tax policy?") -- he is not going to crush his carefully crafted world for a quick thrill.

Spoiler: Some more on Martin and twists (Red Wedding)

Just to give one example of Martin not writing bloody scenes just for the sake of bloody scenes: The red wedding is considered to be a huge "twist" in
the books. But if you read carefully, you will see that the wedding was many seeds in the first two books:

- Dany has a vision about the red wedding in the House of the undying
- Patchface gives a prophecy about the red wedding;
- Theon has a nightmare about the red wedding in the crypts in winterfell;
- Roose sends orders for a third of the northern forces under his command to be ambushed by the Lannisters, with the result that Robbs army is weaker during the RW;
- Walder Frey sends the "nice" Freys away from the Twins, so that those who cannot be trusted are not around during the preparations of the RW

That is what is so cool about Martin's writing, even when he writes something shocking and sadistic, it does not come out of nowhere: the world building is there, quite solid in the background.

P-EDIT: Sorry Zoro, removed... (even though I was just saying "this insane thing won't happen", but oh well).

[zoraster]

Kind of shitty to post spoilers for episodes unaired if you don't warn you're specifically doing so.

[Wraith]

BTW I've been seeing fanboys seriously argue that the lake battle and time weren't a huge error because it would've taken five days for the lake to re-freeze thick enough to support the weight of the wight army.

Seriously.

[Rhinox]

The most plausible head cannon I've heard is that the NK set a trap in order to get a dragon, intentionally holding off the attack until dany was about to arrive, and also explains the presence of the super convenient anchor chains.

[chamber]

And they just happened to survive with no food or fire in subzero temperatures for a week?

[Annadog40]

They ate white walker meat.

[zoraster]

you can survive for 5 days without food (of course fighting afterwards...). The temperatures substantially more problematic. Maybe they huddled around flaming sword.

[Annadog40]

They could also be like penguins and shuffle around each other. Then sleep in a pile or something.

[Rhinox]

And they just happened to survive with no food or fire in subzero temperatures for a week?

Well they were pulling a sled. Stands to reason they had some supplies with them. Like, they did have dragonglass weapons with them even though it was never stated explicitly. The problem i have is that it only seems they were there for like, overnight, and not almost a week.

[pirate mollie]

yeah, rhino, i was wondering that too.

also

Spoiler:

I think the night king is a targaryen. he walks through fire and can control a zombie dragon. ueah, he is a targaryen.

I don't understand what arya plans to do with sansa. also can brienne just step on peter baelish and put every1 out of their misery. god the guy is gross.

Unlikely. The Night King was created from a First Man, while Targs are Valyrians. He was created to help protect the Children of the Forest from mankind, which place him before the Pact between them and no less than 10,000 years before the first Targ came to Westeros.

Spoiler:

did the targaryens spring up independently from the first men? if they did, then what makes the first men the "first" men? the night king wld explain the significant exchanges between him and jon snow (how they looked at each other), jon's return from the dead and drogon's reaction to jon. I think a dragon, even a zombie dragon, only follows a targaryen. the night king seemed to know that he cld revive it and can control it. I don't think just any white walker cld do that.

[pirate mollie]

Spoiler:

I like how in depth the characters are and I won't deny that you are correct but from a producer and sadistic fuck perspective, Sansa should be murdered by Arya. It would have a huge negative impact and shock factor which is one of the major reasons the series is successful... on film at least.

Just saying... Martin would kill someone like that not because of their own person reasons but because it makes for a entertaining story.

Spoiler:

I agree but I will never give up the fantasy that some1 nks peter baelish in a horrific way. sure she cld kill them both but that wld be op. arya is meant to ride into the sunset and see what is beyond westeros and the desert land.

I keep getting the sneaky suspicion that sansa will turn into a wight tho. mebbe that is how arya kills sansa.

[AniX]

yeah, rhino, i was wondering that too.

also

Spoiler:

I think the night king is a targaryen. he walks through fire and can control a zombie dragon. ueah, he is a targaryen.

I don't understand what arya plans to do with sansa. also can brienne just step on peter baelish and put every1 out of their misery. god the guy is gross.

Unlikely. The Night King was created from a First Man, while Targs are Valyrians. He was created to help protect the Children of the Forest from mankind, which place him before the Pact between them and no less than 10,000 years before the first Targ came to Westeros.

Spoiler:

did the targaryens spring up independently from the first men? if they did, then what makes the first men the "first" men? the night king wld explain the significant exchanges between him and jon snow (how they looked at each other), jon's return from the dead and drogon's reaction to jon. I think a dragon, even a zombie dragon, only follows a targaryen. the night king seemed to know that he cld revive it and can control it. I don't think just any white walker cld do that.

Spoiler:

The First Men, as a title for a group, seems to refer to the ethnic group that originally traveled from Essos through the landbridge (later destroyed by the Children) of Dorne into Westeros. They are the First Men only so much as they were the first men in Westeros, not that they were the original ethnic group all other humans emerged from. They populated all of Westeros until the Andals, a different ethnic group, arrived and conquered the area, leaving the First Men only really left in the north. It was only around 4,000 years after that the first Targ, a Valyrian (as were all Dragonlord houses) arrived in Westeros.

I think it is far more likely the King thought he could revive and control it because he has the power to revive and control any living thing.

[xRECKONERx]

the pacing issues were very obvious the last episode and even the director admitted it was a problem

the issue is that GoT set its own pacing early by spending an entire season watching Brienne & Jaime travel to KL on the road
and now we get that timespan jumped in the span of a few minutes

if the Brienne & Jaime pairing happened now, one episode would have Catlyn telling Brienne to take Jaime and the next episode they'd be at King's Landing

or Arya/Hound

or LF/Sansa

i mean really any of the pairings we've started caring about were due to spending enough time just watching them talk and walk

now that we're in the endgame there isn't time for that and im not sure there is a good way to fix it

[Rhinox]

one episode would have Catlyn telling Brienne to take Jaime and the next episode they'd be at King's Landing

might happen all in one episode even


Also, kinda disappointed they haven't even mentioned theon/yara/euron the last 2 episodes. In 704 Theon wanted to ask dany for help rescuing yara. I get 706 was primarily a north/beyond the wall episode, but there's no reason they couldn't have fit in a quick discussion between theon and dany in 705 to set up whatever resolution of that plotline they have planned for the finale.

And I wish the growing relationship between dany and jon was done better. Up until the scene on the boat the only indication there was any "spark" between them was because other characters had to keep telling us, pretty much breaking the number 1 rule of storytelling (show don't tell). It still doesn't feel like there is any sort of romantic interest between them. Now it seems more like mutual admiration and respect. Doesn't really seem any different than how tyrion and dany felt about each other when dany named him hand.

[zoraster]

the pacing issues were very obvious the last episode and even the director admitted it was a problem

the issue is that GoT set its own pacing early by spending an entire season watching Brienne & Jaime travel to KL on the road
and now we get that timespan jumped in the span of a few minutes

if the Brienne & Jaime pairing happened now, one episode would have Catlyn telling Brienne to take Jaime and the next episode they'd be at King's Landing

or Arya/Hound

or LF/Sansa

i mean really any of the pairings we've started caring about were due to spending enough time just watching them talk and walk

now that we're in the endgame there isn't time for that and im not sure there is a good way to fix it

It's a problem. But at the same time I don't want to watch more episodes where things don't happen when we don't have that much time left. So I don't REALLY mind that things are now moving really quickly.

But I think the weakness here wasn't just pacing it was that the lake scene was about

timing

. That is it relied on Gandry running back, getting a Maester to send the raven, the raven arriving, Danny deciding to go, Tyrion telling her not to, and her flying and then finding (I'm guessing the raven's note did not include GPS info) the trapped guys all before they were assaulted.

It's one thing if you just feel like things are being fast forwarded. It's another to essentially remove barriers that the world relies on to make things work.

[Rhinox]

It's a problem. But at the same time I don't want to watch more episodes where things don't happen when we don't have that much time left. So I don't REALLY mind that things are now moving really quickly.

But this is an artificial problem. D&D decided how much time they wanted to have left and then turned everything to plaid to fit it in. The best part of the last episode was the conversations the crew had just marching north. I'd gladly take more stuff like that, and it didn't really get in the way of stuff happening. It WAS the stuff happening, and led to more stuff happening. Or should we just skip stuff like that because who needs it when there's not much time left? Just show them walking out of the gate at the wall, cut to small band of wights to ambush. Just move it along, no time for conversations between characters.

I'm glad they had the conversations at all, but even they could have been done better. It was presented as a checklist of conversations one right after another. Like, first Jon and Jorah talk, then Hound and Tormund, then Jon and Beric, etc. Was that

really

the first opportunity Jon and Jorah had to talk about longclaw? Like I get that maybe Jon was busy mining on dragonstone or they avoided each other because they were kinda giving each other awkward glances around dany, but like didn't they just spend days together in a cramped boat sailing 1,000 miles from dragonstone to the wall? I'm fine with the show asking to accept that some time passes off screen or storylines not happening at the same time or speed. The problem is the show now constantly breaks the illusion of time passing by having characters stand around doing shit all with that time in between scenes that happen days or weeks apart. And that kind of stuff doesn't take a whole lot of effort to fix. Just film Jon and Jorah talking on the boat, when Jorah hands the sword back, pan up to the wall they just sailed into view of, couple quick cuts of walking and boom they're in the cells confronting Sandor and the BWB. They were already planning on spending the run time on the conversation anyways, just move it somewhere it makes more sense and it doubles as a proxy for time passage between dragonstone and the wall. Contrast what we're getting now, to Sam and Gilly's travel to horn hill and old town just last season. Might not be the best example since that was probably something they could have cut and wouldn't have been missed. But suppose they just warped from sam and gilly at the wall to horn hill in the same episode, and then just sat there and had all the same conversations anyways, as if they just spend weeks of travel sitting in silence. I like the version we got better.

[pirate mollie]

one episode would have Catlyn telling Brienne to take Jaime and the next episode they'd be at King's Landing

might happen all in one episode even


Also, kinda disappointed they haven't even mentioned theon/yara/euron the last 2 episodes. In 704 Theon wanted to ask dany for help rescuing yara. I get 706 was primarily a north/beyond the wall episode, but there's no reason they couldn't have fit in a quick discussion between theon and dany in 705 to set up whatever resolution of that plotline they have planned for the finale.

And I wish the growing relationship between dany and jon was done better. Up until the scene on the boat the only indication there was any "spark" between them was because other characters had to keep telling us, pretty much breaking the number 1 rule of storytelling (show don't tell). It still doesn't feel like there is any sort of romantic interest between them. Now it seems more like mutual admiration and respect. Doesn't really seem any different than how tyrion and dany felt about each other when dany named him hand.

I feel like the progression of their romance seems very unnatural and rushed. I am not sure if this is because the writers removed dany as a relatable character or what. I only understood that there was a "spark" in the cave between 2 pple alone in it cos the writers explained it after the episode. it just seems forced.

I kinda feel like that is what is going on with sansa and arya. arya knowing that joffrey was a sadist shld give insight into why sansa wanted ned to confess and not face execution. ned was executed anyway and both sansa and arya wanted joffrey dead. they both had to do what they needed to do to survive.

that doesn't make sansa anymore likeable tho, I mean she is falling for the whole bad guy thing AGAIN.

but I don't like that the writers are having to explain what ought to make sense within the story itself in the first place.

Spoiler:

I didn't even shed a tear when viserion died. it was like "oh yeah that was expected" and yet there are so many things that have been expected that drew forth an engaged emotion, and I am trying to figure out why this episode fell completely flat.

@ani - I think the night king is gonna be either a targaryen or a stark. I have ruled out stark.

and you haven't explained why the nk was able to walk through fire or the dragonkilling spear.

nk is in the know moreso than any of the living characters.

also MORE BERIC AND HIS FLAIMING SWORD PLZ

[Katsuki]

Is there a particular reason why this season is 7 episodes instead of the standard 10? Directors admitted to being able to cut corners due to popularity of show but honestly what gave the show such depth was the development of characters like Brienne/Jaime using an example from this page. It's like they felt they could get away with pleasing the audience with just cramming in as much action as they can (hooray teleporting fleets/chars and videogame accuracy in locating enemy generals).

[zoraster]

It's a problem. But at the same time I don't want to watch more episodes where things don't happen when we don't have that much time left. So I don't REALLY mind that things are now moving really quickly.

But this is an artificial problem. D&D decided how much time they wanted to have left and then turned everything to plaid to fit it in. The best part of the last episode was the conversations the crew had just marching north. I'd gladly take more stuff like that, and it didn't really get in the way of stuff happening. It WAS the stuff happening, and led to more stuff happening. Or should we just skip stuff like that because who needs it when there's not much time left? Just show them walking out of the gate at the wall, cut to small band of wights to ambush. Just move it along, no time for conversations between characters.

I'm glad they had the conversations at all, but even they could have been done better. It was presented as a checklist of conversations one right after another. Like, first Jon and Jorah talk, then Hound and Tormund, then Jon and Beric, etc. Was that

really

the first opportunity Jon and Jorah had to talk about longclaw? Like I get that maybe Jon was busy mining on dragonstone or they avoided each other because they were kinda giving each other awkward glances around dany, but like didn't they just spend days together in a cramped boat sailing 1,000 miles from dragonstone to the wall? I'm fine with the show asking to accept that some time passes off screen or storylines not happening at the same time or speed. The problem is the show now constantly breaks the illusion of time passing by having characters stand around doing shit all with that time in between scenes that happen days or weeks apart. And that kind of stuff doesn't take a whole lot of effort to fix. Just film Jon and Jorah talking on the boat, when Jorah hands the sword back, pan up to the wall they just sailed into view of, couple quick cuts of walking and boom they're in the cells confronting Sandor and the BWB. They were already planning on spending the run time on the conversation anyways, just move it somewhere it makes more sense and it doubles as a proxy for time passage between dragonstone and the wall. Contrast what we're getting now, to Sam and Gilly's travel to horn hill and old town just last season. Might not be the best example since that was probably something they could have cut and wouldn't have been missed. But suppose they just warped from sam and gilly at the wall to horn hill in the same episode, and then just sat there and had all the same conversations anyways, as if they just spend weeks of travel sitting in silence. I like the version we got better.

I vote for indiana jones style travel map.

[AniX]

one episode would have Catlyn telling Brienne to take Jaime and the next episode they'd be at King's Landing

might happen all in one episode even


Also, kinda disappointed they haven't even mentioned theon/yara/euron the last 2 episodes. In 704 Theon wanted to ask dany for help rescuing yara. I get 706 was primarily a north/beyond the wall episode, but there's no reason they couldn't have fit in a quick discussion between theon and dany in 705 to set up whatever resolution of that plotline they have planned for the finale.

And I wish the growing relationship between dany and jon was done better. Up until the scene on the boat the only indication there was any "spark" between them was because other characters had to keep telling us, pretty much breaking the number 1 rule of storytelling (show don't tell). It still doesn't feel like there is any sort of romantic interest between them. Now it seems more like mutual admiration and respect. Doesn't really seem any different than how tyrion and dany felt about each other when dany named him hand.

I feel like the progression of their romance seems very unnatural and rushed. I am not sure if this is because the writers removed dany as a relatable character or what. I only understood that there was a "spark" in the cave between 2 pple alone in it cos the writers explained it after the episode. it just seems forced.

I kinda feel like that is what is going on with sansa and arya. arya knowing that joffrey was a sadist shld give insight into why sansa wanted ned to confess and not face execution. ned was executed anyway and both sansa and arya wanted joffrey dead. they both had to do what they needed to do to survive.

that doesn't make sansa anymore likeable tho, I mean she is falling for the whole bad guy thing AGAIN.

but I don't like that the writers are having to explain what ought to make sense within the story itself in the first place.

Spoiler:

I didn't even shed a tear when viserion died. it was like "oh yeah that was expected" and yet there are so many things that have been expected that drew forth an engaged emotion, and I am trying to figure out why this episode fell completely flat.

@ani - I think the night king is gonna be either a targaryen or a stark. I have ruled out stark.

and you haven't explained why the nk was able to walk through fire or the dragonkilling spear.

nk is in the know moreso than any of the living characters.

also MORE BERIC AND HIS FLAIMING SWORD PLZ

Spoiler:

Because only two things can kill a White Walker: Dragonglass and Valyrian Steel. Fire is not only that list. You couldn't kill the regular white walkers with it either and they are just random baby wildlings grown up.

I don't really see how being able to create an ice spear or knowing things is a trait unique to Targs. Is Qyburn a secret Targ too? Is Varys? Even if he WAS a Targ (he isn't), he'd know things on the basis of being a magic king of a magic race created by fey with futuresight, not happening to be a Targ. Starks are the house with psychics, not Targs.

[Wraith]

one episode would have Catlyn telling Brienne to take Jaime and the next episode they'd be at King's Landing

might happen all in one episode even


Also, kinda disappointed they haven't even mentioned theon/yara/euron the last 2 episodes. In 704 Theon wanted to ask dany for help rescuing yara. I get 706 was primarily a north/beyond the wall episode, but there's no reason they couldn't have fit in a quick discussion between theon and dany in 705 to set up whatever resolution of that plotline they have planned for the finale.

And I wish the growing relationship between dany and jon was done better. Up until the scene on the boat the only indication there was any "spark" between them was because other characters had to keep telling us, pretty much breaking the number 1 rule of storytelling (show don't tell). It still doesn't feel like there is any sort of romantic interest between them. Now it seems more like mutual admiration and respect. Doesn't really seem any different than how tyrion and dany felt about each other when dany named him hand.

I feel like the progression of their romance seems very unnatural and rushed. I am not sure if this is because the writers removed dany as a relatable character or what. I only understood that there was a "spark" in the cave between 2 pple alone in it cos the writers explained it after the episode. it just seems forced.

I kinda feel like that is what is going on with sansa and arya. arya knowing that joffrey was a sadist shld give insight into why sansa wanted ned to confess and not face execution. ned was executed anyway and both sansa and arya wanted joffrey dead. they both had to do what they needed to do to survive.

that doesn't make sansa anymore likeable tho, I mean she is falling for the whole bad guy thing AGAIN.

but I don't like that the writers are having to explain what ought to make sense within the story itself in the first place.

Spoiler:

I didn't even shed a tear when viserion died. it was like "oh yeah that was expected" and yet there are so many things that have been expected that drew forth an engaged emotion, and I am trying to figure out why this episode fell completely flat.

@ani - I think the night king is gonna be either a targaryen or a stark. I have ruled out stark.

and you haven't explained why the nk was able to walk through fire or the dragonkilling spear.

nk is in the know moreso than any of the living characters.

also MORE BERIC AND HIS FLAIMING SWORD PLZ

Three things about Dany and Jon make it seem weird between them:

1. Most romance arcs have taken place over the course of a season

at least

, this is taking place over the course of 5(?) episodes

2. Very few actual conversations between Dany and Jon about things outside official business. Most of their conversations with each other have simply been "Dany pls help with White Walkers" "Bend the knee" "No" "Then no" and that's about it. Almost everything they've actually learned about each others' characters have been

told

to them by ancillary characters like Davos and Missandei.

3. The writers have been extremely inconsistent with how sympathetic Dany is supposed to be to the audience. One moment she's extremely concerned about civilian casualties in KL, the next she's extinguishing entire noble families out of stubborn pride.

[chamber]

3. The writers have been extremely inconsistent with how sympathetic Dany is supposed to be to the audience. One moment she's extremely concerned about civilian casualties in KL, the next she's extinguishing entire noble families out of stubborn pride.

I think this borrows from the books POV changes. She seems more sympathetic when we are getting her view. Less when getting tyrians.

[Wraith]

3. The writers have been extremely inconsistent with how sympathetic Dany is supposed to be to the audience. One moment she's extremely concerned about civilian casualties in KL, the next she's extinguishing entire noble families out of stubborn pride.

I think this borrows from the books POV changes. She seems more sympathetic when we are getting her view. Less when getting tyrians.

The thing is that they didn't explore Dany's identity conflict in Mereen pretty much at all in the show.

In the books she has to repeatedly compromise her principles of idealism and liberation for the sake of peace. This went even as far as tolerating the re-institution of slavery in both Astapor and Yunkai in order for it to stay abolished in Mereen. The Yunkish repeatedly insult her as well an she has to sit and take it for the sake of peace. Then the peace breaks down because Drogon reappears, and she leaves the city on him. And her embrace of her more ruthless and warlike "dragon" personality over her nurturing "mother" personality is symbolically accomplished in her final chapter of ADWD.

But in the show barely any of her Mereen plotline happened - it was mostly given to Tyrion in S6, and in highly-abridged form at that. Dany's more ruthless actions in that season and seasons past - ie burning the Dothraki khals, betraying the Astapori masters, killing the Yunkish leaders, crucifying the Mereenese masters, etc. - were all justified to the audience because the victims of that ruthlessness were all tremendous assholes, backstabbers, and/or committed awful crimes themselves. So it comes completely out of left field when she exterminates the Tarlys for defying her - Randyll was an asshole, but Dickon was portrayed completely sympathetically. And the same when it comes to Jon - why is she now so stubborn that he submit first before she helps him rather than helping him now and asking for his submission later (literally what Book!Stannis came to realize but D&D of course never understood Stannis's character)?

The seemingly minor, superficial cuts they've made in past seasons have piled up to cause a major problem of narrative dissonance in the present. Dany's sudden transition into uncompromising ruthlessness is jarring and seemingly unearned.

[chamber]

I completely disagree and think your impression is coloured by your book knowledge. It didn't seem out of nowhere for her character at all for me, who's only seen the show.