Do you believe in evolution?

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Do you believe in Evolution?

Yes, it is how we got to where we are now
125
78%
No, there is no chance of evolution
12
7%
In theory yes, but we didn't come from primates
17
11%
Unsure
7
4%
 
Total votes: 161

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Post Post #275 (ISO) » Mon Oct 29, 2007 12:10 pm

Post by Foolster41 »

...what does our visual enjoyment have to do with anything? If it was the other way around, you'd be saying "See, ours is the only planet without eclipses, and that's clearly just God helping us so we avoid the hassle of sudden unexpected darkness".
Fallacy of argument. You're making a supoosistion of argument for another person. Though I admit it is not a very large proof at all. (As I stated earlier)

That is naterual selection you arer descirbing. I do beleive naterual slection exists. I have aboslutly no trouble with that at all. Unfortunitly you are making the leap that it COULD change things from one drasticly different species to another. How do you KNOW an ape can become a man eventualy? What i want is hard PROOF, not speculation.
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Post Post #276 (ISO) » Mon Oct 29, 2007 12:25 pm

Post by Yosarian2 »

Foolster41 wrote: Fallacy of argument. You're making a supoosistion of argument for another person. Though I admit it is not a very large proof at all. (As I stated earlier)
My point was that you can't just take random things that are true, figure out how likely they are, and then say "you see, the situation we're in is incredibly unlikely!", because no matter WHAT situation you were in, you could make a list of random things that happen to be true and then make the same claim.
That is naterual selection you arer descirbing. I do beleive naterual slection exists. I have aboslutly no trouble with that at all. Unfortunitly you are making the leap that it COULD change things from one drasticly different species to another. How do you KNOW an ape can become a man eventualy? What i want is hard PROOF, not speculation.
Ok. What differences are there between us and other primates that you think can't be explained by natural selection?

Larger brain size and higher intellegence is certanly something gentetically based, and that can be genetically selected for; if higher intellegence was an advantage in the enviorement our ancestors found themselves in, then natural selection could easily select for that.

Many of the other superficial differences (Mostly hairless, walks more upright, sweats more, ect) can easily be explained by the fact that, unlike apes, our ancestors had to develop the ability to run for long distances on African suvanna in order to hunt; our upright position is a much better adaptation for that enviorment, while the lack of hair and extra sweat glands would be necessary to keep cool while running long distances in African heat.

And the only other main differences are those that provide a clear advantage to intellegent, tool-using animals; opposable thumbs and increased manual dexterity both make tool use easier, and developments in the throat to allow clear speach probably evolved along with language.

Not only is it possible things such as brain size, upright position, and opposable thumbs to develop over time by natural selection, you can actually look at the fossel record and see the different steps in development, as early hominds over millions of years slowly developed larger brains, walked in a more upright way, and became more like modern man.
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Post Post #277 (ISO) » Mon Oct 29, 2007 4:26 pm

Post by vollkan »

Foolster wrote: That is naterual selection you arer descirbing. I do beleive naterual slection exists. I have aboslutly no trouble with that at all. Unfortunitly you are making the leap that it COULD
change things from one drasticly different species to another.
How do you KNOW an ape can become a man eventualy? What i want is hard PROOF, not speculation.
Foolster, the problem with your thinking is that you are missing the fact that we are talking about many, very small adaptations over a very large number of generations.

Each step is minute, but the aggregated sum is enormous.

Remember, also, that "species" is a term used by us to form a mental construct. I mean, nature does not exist in discrete units called "species".
What sort of proof is it that you want? There is an overwhelming amount of evidence in favour of evolution.
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Post Post #278 (ISO) » Tue Oct 30, 2007 12:01 pm

Post by Kelly Chen »

I want to see Jupiter crash into the sun.

Oh wrong debate.

Well, what are the odds that my favorite singer would not only become a record artist, but sing her songs in Cantonese, and also be contemporaries with me so that I can hear them? Could I really be that stinking lucky? Or is it more likely that this was ordained in advance by God or Moses...?
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Post Post #279 (ISO) » Sun Nov 04, 2007 10:53 am

Post by Foolster41 »

I do have a few more questions

How do creatures when they evolve from one eviron to another (For example from underwater to on land). What i mean is, wouldn't there be multiple steps to surviving (Wouldn't they need land movment and lung power at the same time?)

How do we KNOW the world is old?

Are there CREDIABLE cavemen you could point me to (Not Hoaxes, Donkeys or people with rickets)?

Where do the other parts in the flaggellem come from? From what I gather it is unexplianed where those extra (nessicery) parts come from, which defies evolutionary idea of "small steps.

It is easy to say "We're here, so we must have gotten lucky" But that is not a scientific method at all,

"What sort of proof is it that you want? There is an overwhelming amount of evidence in favour of evolution. "
Again, I havn't seen it if it is there. Maybe I simply missed something and would appreciate anything that could help me understand it.
What you've said so far is proof that evolution COULD happen. What i'd like is proof that it is true, since you claim it is so obvious,
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Post Post #280 (ISO) » Sun Nov 04, 2007 11:20 am

Post by Nightson »

Foolster41 wrote: How do creatures when they evolve from one eviron to another (For example from underwater to on land). What i mean is, wouldn't there be multiple steps to surviving (Wouldn't they need land movment and lung power at the same time?)
Amphibians basically.
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Post Post #281 (ISO) » Sun Nov 04, 2007 12:38 pm

Post by Yosarian2 »

Foolster41 wrote: How do we KNOW the world is old?
Well, I kind of adressed this earlier:
Yosarian wrote: Besides, the evidence for the approxomite age of the earth being around 5 billion years old is quite strong. Geology has very strong evidence of the age of the Earth. Using our understanding of nuclear fusion and extensive observations of the stars around us, we can figure out the approxomite age of the sun by measuring spetographically the ratio of hydrogen to helium, and comparing that to the ratio of hydron/helium present in the universe at large, because the heat from the sun comes from hydren being slowly fused into helium through physcial processes that are fairly well understood. We can see that there are other stars that are much younger, and stars that are older. Through our observation of of the moon and other planets, we know that there was a period about 3-4 billion years ago, after the planets were formed, when there were a lot more large chuncks of rock flying around the solar system, hitting plantary bodies, and leaving massive craters, then there is today. How old a specific crater is can be measured by how much metoritic dust has settled there. How long ago a specific rock was formed can be measured by measuing how radioactive certain elements present in the rock are.
Also, here's another point. The galaxy alone is 100,000 light years long. That means that light from the other side of our own galaxy has been traveling for 100,000 years before it got here. Other galaxies are millions or even billions of light years away, and we can see them. So, that means the light was created billions of years ago, and therefore the universe must be billions of years old.
Are there CREDIABLE cavemen you could point me to (Not Hoaxes, Donkeys or people with rickets)?
Eh? There's been any number of different species of humanoids that fossil evidence has been found from. Homo Erectus, our direct ancestor, actually spread from Africa throughout much of Asia before the more advance Homo Sapians evolved in Africa and then spread from there to replace it's smaller and less intellegent cousin. At the same time, Homo Neanthal had evolved in Europe, with larger bones and a heavier build to withstand the colder climate, but again was replaced when our more advanced Homo Sapiants ancestors spread into Europe from Africa. This is all documents in great detail in the fossil record, along with the stone tools that each species of humans used.
Where do the other parts in the flaggellem come from? From what I gather it is unexplianed where those extra (nessicery) parts come from, which defies evolutionary idea of "small steps.
That's an interesting question, still debated by scientists, and of course that's not exactally something that's easy to figure out. One theory is that it was actaully a matter of symbiosis, that the flaggellem was a symbiosis of another cell and a Spirochaete http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spirochete type of cell.
It is easy to say "We're here, so we must have gotten lucky" But that is not a scientific method at all,
(shrug) Even if there is only a one in a million chance of intellegent life evolving on any given planet, then in the universe it should evolve somewhere, and wherever that happens, that life would sit up and wonder why it came into existance. If it's possible, then it should happen somewhere.

Again, I havn't seen it if it is there. Maybe I simply missed something and would appreciate anything that could help me understand it.
What you've said so far is proof that evolution COULD happen. What i'd like is proof that it is true, since you claim it is so obvious,
Well, like I said, natural selection can be observed today. Evolution, that is the change of a species over time, can be observed in the fossil record. You can actually see the species evolve and change. Looking into your own DNA, you can find it's great similarity to the DNA of primates. The mechinism by which DNA can mutate and be passed on is well understood, and we can even predict how long two species have been seperated based on the study of their genes.
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Post Post #282 (ISO) » Sun Nov 04, 2007 3:23 pm

Post by vollkan »

Foolster wrote: How do creatures when they evolve from one eviron to another (For example from underwater to on land). What i mean is, wouldn't there be multiple steps to surviving (Wouldn't they need land movment and lung power at the same time?)
Well, yeah, ampibians are proof of it, but if you mean the actual adaptive steps I shall try and give some explanation.

Fossils have actually been found of amphibious fish; fish with very primitive fin-arms. Now, the obvious reason for such a creature evolving is simple: There may be food in an isolated lake or something, or in a swamp. If you have ever been fishing, you will know that fish can jump around on land, but it is pretty ineffective.

The likely explanation for the transition from sea to land is food-gathering. Fish that are able to gather more effectively (ie. cross land) are more likely to survive if there is a shortage in one particular area.
How do we KNOW the world is old?
From talkorigins.org:

* Radiometric dating shows the earth to be 4.5 billion years old
* If the earth is old, then radioactive isotopes with short half-lives should have all decayed already. That is what we find. Isotopes with half-lives longer than eighty million years are found on earth; isotopes with shorter half-lives are not, the only exceptions being those that are generated by current natural processes
* Loess deposits (deposits of wind-blown silt) in China are 300 m thick. They give a continuous climate record for 7.2 million years. The record is consistent with magnetostratigraphy and habitat type inferred from fossils
* The abundance and distribution of helium change predictably as the sun ages, converting hydrogen to helium in its core. These parameters also affect how sound waves move through the sun. Thus one may estimate the sun's age from seismic solar data. Such an analysis puts the age of the sun at 4.66 billion years, plus or minus about 4 percent

Now, where is the "evidence" for a young earth?
Are there CREDIABLE cavemen you could point me to (Not Hoaxes, Donkeys or people with rickets)?
Well, Lucy immediately jumps to mind. As Yosarian said, there are many.
Where do the other parts in the flaggellem come from? From what I gather it is unexplianed where those extra (nessicery) parts come from, which defies evolutionary idea of "small steps.
To explain what Yosarian was saying in laymen's terms:
The parts needed to make a flagellum did not need to evolve specifically to "make a flagellum". Two parts may evolve separately for different purposes (there are a number of ideas on the purposes of the parts) and then synthesize for a new purpose via mutation.
It is easy to say "We're here, so we must have gotten lucky" But that is not a scientific method at all,
Even if it is like finding a needle in a haystack, the point is that we are sitting on the needle.
"What sort of proof is it that you want? There is an overwhelming amount of evidence in favour of evolution. "
Again, I havn't seen it if it is there. Maybe I simply missed something and would appreciate anything that could help me understand it.
What you've said so far is proof that evolution COULD happen. What i'd like is proof that it is true, since you claim it is so obvious,
Yosarian has dealt with this.
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Post Post #283 (ISO) » Sun Nov 04, 2007 6:33 pm

Post by Foolster41 »

How do you know the half-life of radioactive isotopes. Since 80,000,000 is much longer than evne recorded history then how do we KNOW that it lasts that long? A measurjng tool is only useful if we know how long that tool is. So, where does these number come from?

People here keep saying "I have lots" and yet do not supply any examples. To be fair, this may just be there are o many you don't know where to begin, but specific examples would be appreciated.

There are a few vonterversies with Lucy (And no I don't mean the knee bone thing with seems a false claim against it.). People like Dr. Charles Oxnard http://www.answersingenesis.org/creatio ... 3/lucy.asp

I don't mean to be diffacult, but I am genuinly trying to understand your point of view in order to arrive at the truth.
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Post Post #284 (ISO) » Sun Nov 04, 2007 7:02 pm

Post by vollkan »

Foolster wrote: How do you know the half-life of radioactive isotopes. Since 80,000,000 is much longer than evne recorded history then how do we KNOW that it lasts that long? A measurjng tool is only useful if we know how long that tool is. So, where does these number come from?
Experimental half-life determination is relatively easy (for physicists). We touched on it last year in final year physics at high school, but I don't remember too well. Some other people may know this better than I do, but it is determinable experimentally.
People here keep saying "I have lots" and yet do not supply any examples. To be fair, this may just be there are o many you don't know where to begin, but specific examples would be appreciated.
Lots of what? If you mean remains of early hominids, even a basic wikipedia search will give you an ample number of specimens. Australopithecus alone gives:
* Laetoli footprints
* AL 129-1
* Lucy
* STS 5 (Mrs. Ples)
* STS 14
* STS 71
* Taung Child
* Selam
There are a few vonterversies with Lucy (And no I don't mean the knee bone thing with seems a false claim against it.). People like Dr. Charles Oxnard http://www.answersingenesis.org/creatio ... 3/lucy.asp
No. This is wrong and, given the URL you cite, I am not surprised. According to talkorigins.org (a website I highly recommend) Those statements have been widely discredited and Oxnard himself considers Australopithecus to be a human ancestor.
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Post Post #285 (ISO) » Sun Nov 04, 2007 9:22 pm

Post by Foolster41 »

Why is the site it not creditable? Because they have the preposition that they believe in creationism because of their observations?

I did look at talkorigins and I did see plenty on the knee distance thing (Which I'm willing to concede isn't good evidence against Lucy) but nothing about Oxnard or his quote. EDIT: Oh wait. I did find something.

I'll need mro time to look at the rest. Thanks for the start.
Last edited by Foolster41 on Sun Nov 04, 2007 9:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Post #286 (ISO) » Sun Nov 04, 2007 9:42 pm

Post by vollkan »

This talkorigins article references Oxnard
Why is the site it not creditable? Because they have the preposition that they believe in creationism because of their observations?
Answers in Genesis is not credible because its they approach the matter, as you say, with a Creationist presupposition and then misuse science, such as Oxnard, to produce selective observations.
I'll need mro time to look at the rest. Thanks for the start.
Talkorigins is an excellent resource if you are interested in learning about evolution. It explains all the science very simply and scrutinises all of the arguments against evolution without becoming bogged down in jargon.
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Post Post #287 (ISO) » Mon Nov 05, 2007 11:20 am

Post by VisMaior »

vote evolution
That should bring an end to the debate :)
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Post Post #288 (ISO) » Mon Nov 05, 2007 11:21 am

Post by Glork »

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Post Post #289 (ISO) » Mon Nov 05, 2007 12:22 pm

Post by Cogito Ergo Sum »

foolster wrote:How do you know the half-life of radioactive isotopes. Since 80,000,000 is much longer than evne recorded history then how do we KNOW that it lasts that long? A measurjng tool is only useful if we know how long that tool is. So, where does these number come from?
Radioactive decay is exponential decay.

Population size(time) = Population size(0)*e^(time*constant).

If you want to figure out the halflife of a given radioactive substance you don't need to wait for half of it to decay: you just need enough of it to decay to be able to pinpoint which exponential curve you're seeing. Once you figure out the constant, the halflife is just a simple calculation away.

(You might wonder why radioactive decay is described by that equation. It's because it's completely random. Each atom has a chance of p of decaying each time interval. Then the amount of atoms that decay during a time interval, which we'll call A, is N*p, where N is the amount of atoms. If you made a function for N dependent on time, N(t), A(t) would be the derivative, as the amount of decaying atoms is equivalent to the change in the number of atoms. Now we find:

A(t) = N(t)*p
dN/dt = N*p

which is a differential equations with solutions c1*e^(c2*t), where c1 is uniquely determined by the population size at time 0 and c2 by the chance, p.)
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Post Post #290 (ISO) » Tue Nov 06, 2007 3:13 am

Post by Oman »

"Have you ever noticed people who believe in Creationism look really unevolved?

"I believe God made me in one day" "Yeah, looks like he rushed it.""
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Post Post #291 (ISO) » Tue Nov 06, 2007 3:31 am

Post by vollkan »

When in doubt, Bill Hicks. :)
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Post Post #292 (ISO) » Tue Nov 06, 2007 3:37 am

Post by Oman »

Always. Though don't think I have a narrow view.

I suplement with George Carlin :lol:
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Post Post #293 (ISO) » Tue Nov 06, 2007 4:16 am

Post by Thesp »

I stopped reading this discussion some time ago, but I saw an article I thought which really made me laugh and ponder some things. I hope you all appreciate it as much as I do, and thought it would be worthwhile here.

http://www.pointlesswasteoftime.com/godfuse.html

God bless. ;)
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Post Post #294 (ISO) » Tue Nov 06, 2007 6:49 am

Post by Seol »

Thesp wrote:I stopped reading this discussion some time ago, but I saw an article I thought which really made me laugh and ponder some things. I hope you all appreciate it as much as I do, and thought it would be worthwhile here.

http://www.pointlesswasteoftime.com/godfuse.html

God bless. ;)
Very good article!

...although I do object to his assertations that the absence of religion would mean no concept of morality or social order, but that's a very minor point which doesn't take away from the importance of his argument.
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Post Post #295 (ISO) » Tue Nov 06, 2007 7:15 am

Post by Sarcastro »

Eh, that article said some weird things. How can you blame Stalin's atheism for
anything
? He never even
claimed
to be motivated by atheism, he was just totally ruthless. If you want to say that that was because of his atheism, well, okay (though I don't think there's any evidence for that besides the idea that atheists are evil), but the purges still weren't
motivated
by atheism by any stretch of the imagination. Stalin did what he did because he was ruthless, not because he was crazy (like, say, Hitler). So no, I don't think it's equivalent to people saying that you can't say there's something wrong with religion because all the genocidal maniacs weren't "true Christians/Muslims/whatever".

It was totally worth reading, though, for this:

Image
[color=darkblue]If there's anything more important than my ego around, I want it caught and shot now.[/color]
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Post Post #296 (ISO) » Tue Nov 06, 2007 7:41 am

Post by WaterboyWaldo »

Do you believe in Evolution?
Yes.
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Post Post #297 (ISO) » Tue Nov 06, 2007 7:51 am

Post by Thesp »

Sarcastro wrote:Eh, that article said some weird things. How can you blame Stalin's atheism for
anything
? He never even
claimed
to be motivated by atheism, he was just totally ruthless.
I think what he was suggesting is that Stalin's actions were ultimately derived from a perverted sense of atheism. I do agree that the images were hysterical, and I was especially amused by:

Image
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Post Post #298 (ISO) » Tue Nov 06, 2007 8:08 am

Post by VisMaior »

Glork wrote:Mr. Ma
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or, are you coming back for good or not?

:x
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Post Post #299 (ISO) » Tue Nov 06, 2007 8:11 am

Post by VisMaior »

And also,
Image

This one is the hilariousest.
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