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Post Post #475  (ISO)  » Fri Jun 09, 2017 4:35 pm

In post 473, mykonian wrote:I really hope that they can manage to forge a coalition that has their brexit stance ironed out somehow.
>Brexit per the Tories was partly about having hard borders against inbound EU migration
>The EU wants to have a hard border against inbound British migration, lest the whole point of the EU be undermined
>whoever the neanderconservatives are want a soft border with Ireland (which really wants to stay in the EU) for inbound British migration

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Post Post #476  (ISO)  » Fri Jun 09, 2017 5:05 pm

Not to mention the fact that any agreement with one NI party that doesn't include the other is almost certainly breaking the Good Friday Agreement in some way. But hey, who would expect a strong and stable government to think about things like that.
well ackchyually

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Post Post #477  (ISO)  » Fri Jun 09, 2017 6:16 pm

In post 442, mykonian wrote:
In post 437, shaft.ed wrote:That's a terrible plan long term.
No one will be happy after Brexit. It's going to suck no matter who negotiates it, and it's best to hang that around the conservatives necks instead of taking all the crap for it when you didn't even want it in the first place.


If you are in politics but don't want to actually lead the country, what the hell are you doing? In the rest of the coming decade you aren't going to make as much as an impact as you would in the coming 2 years. Sure you could look away the moment it's getting tough then whine that your opponents messed it all up. All you've managed is help your country to shit from your point of view, and shown your voters that you don't have the guts to make tough decisions when they are asked from you.

Now Corbyn could never lead a government of national unity. He's barely able to lead his own party. So it does sound like a pipe dream.

the time to stand up and lead was post Brexit vote by offering a second chance at stay instead of saying you'd do the thing you campaigned against better than the people who wanted to do it in the first place

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Post Post #478  (ISO)  » Fri Jun 09, 2017 6:26 pm

Referenda till one gets the answer one wants isn't really a democratic option. You asked, you got your answer, you make it happen. Otherwise you are representing nobody but yourself.
Surrender, imagine and of course wear something nice.

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Post Post #479  (ISO)  » Fri Jun 09, 2017 6:30 pm

In post 477, shaft.ed wrote:
In post 442, mykonian wrote:
In post 437, shaft.ed wrote:That's a terrible plan long term.
No one will be happy after Brexit. It's going to suck no matter who negotiates it, and it's best to hang that around the conservatives necks instead of taking all the crap for it when you didn't even want it in the first place.


If you are in politics but don't want to actually lead the country, what the hell are you doing? In the rest of the coming decade you aren't going to make as much as an impact as you would in the coming 2 years. Sure you could look away the moment it's getting tough then whine that your opponents messed it all up. All you've managed is help your country to shit from your point of view, and shown your voters that you don't have the guts to make tough decisions when they are asked from you.

Now Corbyn could never lead a government of national unity. He's barely able to lead his own party. So it does sound like a pipe dream.

the time to stand up and lead was post Brexit vote by offering a second chance at stay instead of saying you'd do the thing you campaigned against better than the people who wanted to do it in the first place


yeah, I think you missed the point of a referendum

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Post Post #480  (ISO)  » Fri Jun 09, 2017 6:32 pm

I mean, May called an election with the hopes it'd change the parameters she worked under for Brexit, why can't that go the other way? Plenty of systems purposefully put into place systems that don't allow for quick changes of constitutions and other systemic changes to governance. The referendum was "advisory," after all.
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Post Post #481  (ISO)  » Fri Jun 09, 2017 6:37 pm

There are many ways to fill in that advice though. What shafted argues for, is either not taking responsibility when offered, meaning you lose the chance of getting "your" kind of brexit, and show your followers that their votes are actually wasted on you as you don't dare to represent them. Or the option to disregard a referendum and in that way ignore the people you are representing. Both are political suicide. Not as in that you don't play "the game" well enough, it's that you show yourself incapable of doing your job of representing people.
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Post Post #482  (ISO)  » Fri Jun 09, 2017 6:40 pm

We should only ever have an election when a leader dies! That's how democracy works: You ask about an issue a single time and that sets the policy for everyone ever at all points in the future.
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Post Post #483  (ISO)  » Fri Jun 09, 2017 6:41 pm

It's almost like people can change their minds when they reflect on the issue and can manifest that change of mind by voting for or against candidates in an election that argue for the position they now favor or now oppose.
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Post Post #484  (ISO)  » Fri Jun 09, 2017 6:43 pm

It seems pretty democratic to me to continue to vote on the major proceedings of state. The government at the point of time of the referendum carried out the first steps. The people voted and didn't give them a majority. If another party comes into power with a different agenda (leaving aside whether anyone but SNP and LD did that), then there's no reason to believe that isn't just the normal workings of democracy.
.

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Post Post #485  (ISO)  » Fri Jun 09, 2017 6:44 pm

In post 480, zoraster wrote:The referendum was "advisory," after all.

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Post Post #486  (ISO)  » Fri Jun 09, 2017 6:56 pm

a referendum with a Remain result after Leave already won the first one would be UNDEMOCRATIC
To be clear: this is not allowed

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Post Post #487  (ISO)  » Fri Jun 09, 2017 8:03 pm

In post 486, SleepyKrew wrote:a referendum with a Remain result after Leave already won the first one would be UNDEMOCRATIC


It's not even been a year since the referendum, and the conservatives, in charge of that brexit, lost 13 seats, a whole 2 percent of the house of commons.

It'd indeed be pretty ridiculous to have a second referendum (nullifying the first). This is not the landslide that lets you ignore a recent referendum, and you'd be insulting your people with asking again as they know their vote doesn't matter in that case anyway, you could just whipe it off the table another year from now. Similar with "advisory". Sure you could ignore it. That's also the end of any faith a follower can have in you, because you've shown you don't care to listen to the people that you are supposed to represent.
Surrender, imagine and of course wear something nice.

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Post Post #488  (ISO)  » Fri Jun 09, 2017 8:05 pm

the only scenario where there'd be another referendum would be if Labour was in power now
of course there isn't going to be another referendum under May
To be clear: this is not allowed

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Post Post #489  (ISO)  » Fri Jun 09, 2017 8:34 pm

In post 487, mykonian wrote:
In post 486, SleepyKrew wrote:a referendum with a Remain result after Leave already won the first one would be UNDEMOCRATIC


It's not even been a year since the referendum, and the conservatives, in charge of that brexit, lost 13 seats, a whole 2 percent of the house of commons.

It'd indeed be pretty ridiculous to have a second referendum (nullifying the first). This is not the landslide that lets you ignore a recent referendum, and you'd be insulting your people with asking again as they know their vote doesn't matter in that case anyway, you could just whipe it off the table another year from now. Similar with "advisory". Sure you could ignore it. That's also the end of any faith a follower can have in you, because you've shown you don't care to listen to the people that you are supposed to represent.


If the people don't want another referendum, they could be free to vote for candidates that won't give them one.
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Post Post #490  (ISO)  » Fri Jun 09, 2017 9:31 pm

In post 487, mykonian wrote:It's not even been a year since the referendum, and the conservatives, in charge of that brexit, lost 13 seats, a whole 2 percent of the house of commons.

my position is they lose more seats if Labour ran on a platform of no Brexit, or at the very least another referendum

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Post Post #491  (ISO)  » Fri Jun 09, 2017 10:05 pm

In post 490, shaft.ed wrote:
In post 487, mykonian wrote:It's not even been a year since the referendum, and the conservatives, in charge of that brexit, lost 13 seats, a whole 2 percent of the house of commons.

my position is they lose more seats if Labour ran on a platform of no Brexit, or at the very least another referendum


If this was true the Lib Dems would have done better.
If Labour had run on a platform of a second referendum, they would have lost more of their northern England seats (lots of Leave voters up there).

If people change their opinions enough over the next year a second referendum might become a viable option then (albeit then it becomes trickier to get EU agreement if people vote to stay in).

One nice thing about Labour not offering to reverse Brexit completely is this election shows quite clearly that people didn't want to give Tories a mandate for hard Brexit and further austerity Compared with it being unclear whether people voted Labour because they're against austerity or against Brexit or both.

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Post Post #492  (ISO)  » Fri Jun 09, 2017 10:06 pm

In post 491, imaginality wrote:
In post 490, shaft.ed wrote:
In post 487, mykonian wrote:It's not even been a year since the referendum, and the conservatives, in charge of that brexit, lost 13 seats, a whole 2 percent of the house of commons.

my position is they lose more seats if Labour ran on a platform of no Brexit, or at the very least another referendum


If this was true the Lib Dems would have done better.
If Labour had run on a platform of a second referendum, they would have lost more of their northern England seats (lots of Leave voters up there).

If people change their opinions enough over the next year a second referendum might become a viable option then (albeit then it becomes trickier to get EU agreement if people vote to stay in).

One nice thing about Labour not offering to reverse Brexit completely is this election shows quite clearly that people didn't want to give Tories a mandate for hard Brexit and further austerity Compared with it being unclear whether people voted Labour because they're against austerity or against Brexit or both.


I think LD were fighting uphill for reasons that had little to do with their position on Brexit.
.

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Post Post #493  (ISO)  » Fri Jun 09, 2017 11:25 pm

I dont think he's saying that the libdems didnt get too many votes cuz of their unbrexit stamce, but that if a pro-unbrexit stance would have been the right thing to do for labour then the libdems would have done better, since they didnt one can assume that Corbyn was maybe not such a dumbass for choosing to not die on that hill

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Post Post #494  (ISO)  » Fri Jun 09, 2017 11:25 pm

I hope that sentence makes sense I'm quite drunk

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Post Post #495  (ISO)  » Fri Jun 09, 2017 11:32 pm

In post 493, Zulfy wrote:I dont think he's saying that the libdems didnt get too many votes cuz of their unbrexit stamce, but that if a pro-unbrexit stance would have been the right thing to do for labour then the libdems would have done better, since they didnt one can assume that Corbyn was maybe not such a dumbass for choosing to not die on that hill


Uh I mean I guess it makes sense, but that's what I'm responding to.

I don't think LD's pro-Brexit stance is what stopped them from getting more seats. LD's did have a net gain, after all. I don't think that logically means it was the right policy for Labour to take as their potential constituencies are different.
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Post Post #496  (ISO)  » Sat Jun 10, 2017 8:24 am

May is being pushed out by 1922 committee.
If she hasn't sacked her two most senior advisers by Monday they are calling for a leadership election.
vonflare (21:40)
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Post Post #497  (ISO)  » Sat Jun 10, 2017 8:34 am

.

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Post Post #498  (ISO)  » Sat Jun 10, 2017 10:15 am

"Resigned"

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Post Post #499  (ISO)  » Sat Jun 10, 2017 11:49 am

tbf apparently one of them resigned on friday but no one noticed
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