Pi is a lie?

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Pi is a lie?

Post Post #0 (ISO) » Fri May 12, 2017 9:05 am

Post by eagerSnake »

Since pi is irrational, either circumference or diameter must be irrational. Distance can't be irrational; it is measurable.

Thoughts?
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Post Post #1 (ISO) » Fri May 12, 2017 9:18 am

Post by xyzzy »

measurements in the real world can only be approximated (except for the specific things we use as references for measurement, such as the IPK), and in general, the actual distance between any two things
is
an irrational number. mathematics has rational numbers, but real world applications of mathematics do not.
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Post Post #2 (ISO) » Fri May 12, 2017 9:32 am

Post by eagerSnake »

But in reality we know that it's not irrational. There are no irrational numbers in real life. So, what is the true ratio? How can we find it?

This is the "golden ratio" people don't speak about, isn't it?

Not even a computer can figure out the distance? Is there something wrong with our number system? Is there any changes we can make to our number system to make it easier to calculate?

It blows my mind because if we have a circle with a known absolute circumference, then we draw a line through the center and erase the circle we have a line segment which should be able to be measured.

Is it just a matter of our abilities to measure things not being accurate enough? Most likely. In order to find the true ratio I guess we would have to change the unit of measurement to particles or something, which I'm assuming we don't have the tech to do yet (maybe?)
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Post Post #3 (ISO) » Fri May 12, 2017 9:43 am

Post by implosion »

First off there is nothing that says there can't be irrational distances in the real world. I'm curious where you derive that notion from.

Second, even if we accept it (maybe every distance is an integer multiple of a Planck distance or something) pi is still a perfectly good number that accurately measures the ratio in a mathematical circle. Moreover a "real world" circle would have a ratio very closely approximating pi. It would likely vary from circle to circle, sometimes being slightly larger and sometimes slightly smaller.

Also measurement is fundamentally imprecise (I think?) and so it isn't really meaningful to call the value of a measurement rational or irrational, since you would need perfect precision to distinguish between these.
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Post Post #4 (ISO) » Fri May 12, 2017 9:52 am

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3.141592653589793238462643383279502884197169399375105820974944592307816406286208998628034825342117067982148086513282306647093844609550582231725359408128481117450284102701938521105559644622948954930381964428810975665933446128475648233786783165271201909145648566923460348610454326648213393607260249141273724587006606315588174881520920962829254091715364367892590360011330530548820466521384146951941511609433057270365759591953092186117381932611793105118548074462379962749567351885752724891227938183011949129833673362440656643086021394946395224737190702179860943702770539217176293176752384674818467669405132000568127145263560827785771342757789609173637178721468440901224953430146549585371050792279689258923542019956112129021960864034418159813629774771309960518707211349999998372978049951059731732816096318595024459455346908302642522308253344685035261931188171010003137838752886587533208381420617177669147303598253490428755468731159562863882353787593751957781857780532171226806613001927876611195909216420198938095257201065485863278865936153381827968230301952035301852968995773622599413891249721775283479131515574857242454150695950829533116861727855889075098381754637464939319255060400927701671139009848824012858361603563707660104710181942955596198946767837449448255379774726847104047534646208046684259069491293313677028989152104752162056966024058038150193511253382430035587640247496473263914199272604269922796782354781636009341721641219924586315030286182974555706749838505494588586926995690927210797509302955321165344987202755960236480665499119881834797753566369807426542527862551818417574672890977772793800081647060016145249192173217214772350141441973568548161361157352552133475741849468438523323907394143334547762416862518983569485562099219222184272550254256887671790494601653466804988627232791786085784383827967976681454100953883786360950680064225125205117392984896084128488626945604241965285022210661186306744278622039194945047123713786960956364371917287467764657573962413890865832645995813390478027590099465764078951269468398352595709825822620522489407726719478268482601476990902640136394437455305068203496252451749399651431429809190659250937221696461515709858387410597885959772975498930161753928468138268683868942774155991855925245953959431049972524680845987273644695848653836736222626099124608051243884390451244136549762780797715691435997700129616089441694868555848406353422072225828488648158456028506016842739452267467678895252138522549954666727823986456596116354886230577456498035593634568174324112515076069479451096596094025228879710893145669136867228748940560101503308617928680920874760917824938589009714909675985261365549781893129784821682998948722658804857564014270477555132379641451523746234364542858444795265867821051141354735739523113427166102135969536231442952484937187110145765403590279934403742007310578539062198387447808478489683321445713868751943506430218453191048481005370614680674919278191197939952061419663428754440643745123718192179998391015919561814675142691239748940907186494231961567945208095146550225231603881
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Post Post #5 (ISO) » Fri May 12, 2017 9:55 am

Post by eagerSnake »

In post 3, implosion wrote:First off there is nothing that says there can't be irrational distances in the real world. I'm curious where you derive that notion from.
Because an irrational number is infinite. It's not measurable. Never ending.

Distances are finite. Measurable. Beginning, and ending.
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Post Post #6 (ISO) » Fri May 12, 2017 10:10 am

Post by xyzzy »

I'm not sure you understand what the word "infinite" means in this context. the decimal form of pi has an infinite number of digits, but any number can be written with an infinite number of digits in that form; for instance, zero can be written as 0.00000000000... if you like, with an infinite quantity of the digit 0 after the decimal point. that doesn't make zero equal to infinity.
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Post Post #7 (ISO) » Fri May 12, 2017 10:17 am

Post by implosion »

In post 5, eagerSnake wrote:
In post 3, implosion wrote:First off there is nothing that says there can't be irrational distances in the real world. I'm curious where you derive that notion from.
Because an irrational number is infinite. It's not measurable. Never ending.

Distances are finite. Measurable. Beginning, and ending.
The problem like xyzzy alludes to is that you're not using precise definitions for the words measurable and infinite. Mathematics is very precise so until you define exactly what it means to measure something or what you mean by infinite or even distances it's unclear what you're arguing.
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Post Post #8 (ISO) » Fri May 12, 2017 10:17 am

Post by eagerSnake »

Excuse my candor but I'm not sure you understand what "irrational" means in this context.

It has no pattern, no repetition, and no end.
<- requirements to be considered irrational pedit: unable to be shown as x/y where x/y are integers

Your example of 0 is no good because it's not irrational because it has a pattern that repeats itself, which is great! Also can be shown as 0/1.
Last edited by eagerSnake on Fri May 12, 2017 9:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Post #9 (ISO) » Fri May 12, 2017 10:22 am

Post by eagerSnake »

At this point, when you accept irrational numbers in measurements, math becomes art, rather than science.
This is what they don't teach you.
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Post Post #10 (ISO) » Fri May 12, 2017 10:23 am

Post by Not_Mafia »

They don't teach you that because it's wrong
Also, what is NM doing? Worst play I’ve ever seen.
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Post Post #11 (ISO) » Fri May 12, 2017 10:24 am

Post by eagerSnake »

And you believe what, that an irrational distance is a real thing?
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Post Post #12 (ISO) » Fri May 12, 2017 10:24 am

Post by implosion »

I have no idea what you mean by that. Math is more art than science in the first place. It just happens to have applications that science finds very deeply useful. The actual process of creating mathematics is much more comparable to art imo.
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Post Post #13 (ISO) » Fri May 12, 2017 10:25 am

Post by implosion »

Distances in the real world are not irrational or rational. They aren't real numbers in the mathematical sense. They are numbers with significant figures and error bars. Calling them rational or irrational is nonsensical.
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Post Post #14 (ISO) » Fri May 12, 2017 10:30 am

Post by eagerSnake »

Distance is measured in units that we count

If you get down to the particle level unit of meaurement, there will be no more irrational distance, because you can count the particles.
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Post Post #15 (ISO) » Fri May 12, 2017 10:32 am

Post by eagerSnake »

Therefore our calculations of pi is wrong, but close

Because pi, as we figure it, is an irrational number

And that would mean either the circumference or diameter of the circle is irrational, which is not rational (pun intended)
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Post Post #16 (ISO) » Fri May 12, 2017 10:35 am

Post by chamber »

long live tau.
Taking a break from the site.
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Post Post #17 (ISO) » Fri May 12, 2017 10:36 am

Post by eagerSnake »

The next question is, why is it wrong? Well I'm guessing that has to do with our measurements or our number system.
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Post Post #18 (ISO) » Fri May 12, 2017 10:37 am

Post by chamber »

But more seriously, what is the length of the hypotenuse of a right angle triangle with 2 sides of length 1. Oh look, you can have irrational lengths.
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Post Post #19 (ISO) » Fri May 12, 2017 10:41 am

Post by eagerSnake »

Going to chew on that one now.

That doesn't make sense either. There must be an end to these numbers.

Otherwise it doesn't make logical sense.
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Post Post #20 (ISO) » Fri May 12, 2017 11:07 am

Post by eagerSnake »

In post 16, chamber wrote:long live tau.
Never saw this but I'm looking into it now.

Bob Palais and all that. Looks interesting.
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Post Post #21 (ISO) » Fri May 12, 2017 11:11 am

Post by eagerSnake »

Pi is still wrong
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Post Post #22 (ISO) » Fri May 12, 2017 11:12 am

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So what is the length of the hypotenuse of a right-angled triangle with the other 2 sides length 1?
Also, what is NM doing? Worst play I’ve ever seen.
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Post Post #23 (ISO) » Fri May 12, 2017 11:15 am

Post by Socrates »

Imagine you are finger painting and are trying to color something in between two lines, but your finger itself is fatter than the gap. Every time you put your finger down, the paint ends up slightly off. A little too much on the left, a little too much on the right, back to the left again. You keep trying, and every pass the paint inside the area you are trying to color gets darker and thicker than the surrounding area and the shape you are trying to color starts to become clear, but only with unsightly smudges surrounding it.

You'll never get a perfectly sharp edge, because your finger is just too fat.
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Post Post #24 (ISO) » Fri May 12, 2017 11:26 am

Post by Socrates »

The Pythagorean theorem:

C^2 = (A + B)^2 - 2AB

The union of two numerical sets in set theory:

(A U B) = A + B - (A n B)

There's something there, but I can't make it click in my head right.
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