7 Wonders (8/8) | Game 3 over!

lilith2013 · Post Post #300 (ISO) » Fri Aug 14, 2020 7:38 am

Age II Military Resolution

CreativeMod1 has 0 Shields, and loses both military conflicts. He receives two -1 Military tokens.
RadiantCowbells has 6 Shields, and wins both military conflicts. He receives two +3 Military tokens.
Wooper has 2 Shields, and loses both military conflicts. He receives two -1 Military tokens.
enomis has 5 Shields, and wins both military conflicts. He receives two +3 Military tokens.
Xtoxm has 3 Shields. He wins one military conflict and loses one, receiving one -1 and one +3 Military token.
Farren has 1 Shield. He loses one military conflict and ties with GeorgeBailey. He receives one -1 Military token.
GeorgeBailey has 1 Shield. He loses one military conflict and ties with Farren. He receives one -1 Military token.
Isis has 4 Shields and wins both military conflicts, receiving two +3 Military tokens.

Updated boards

Spoiler: CreativeMod1 (China A)

Spoiler: RadiantCowbells (Petra B)

Spoiler: Wooper (Stonehenge B)

Spoiler: enomis (Alexandria B)

Spoiler: Xtoxm (Halikarnassos B)

Spoiler: Farren (Babylon B)

Spoiler: GeorgeBailey (Byzantium A)

Spoiler: Isis (Brussels B)

Spoiler: Discard pile

It is now Age III, Hand I! Hands in Age III are passed to the left (

up the player list

). The next hands have been sent, and players now have (expired on 2020-08-16 14:44:16) to build a card, discard a card for 3 coins, or discard a card to build a Wonder stage. Please respond directly to the PM I sent you with your decision. If you need to buy a resource from a neighbor in order to build a card, please specify which neighbor you are buying from.

Cities notes:

you may notice that not all Cities cards are being placed in the "Cities" area of the board. Basically, if the Cities card falls under an existing "type," I will put it in that area instead - in the current boards, for example, Wooper's Clandestine Dock East is located in the Commercial section because the effect aligns with other Commercial cards; and Isis' Militia card is located in the Military section so that all Shields are in the same place.
Debt tokens are indicated in the Coins section of the board with a {-1} per Debt token.

lilith2013 · Post Post #301 (ISO) » Sun Aug 16, 2020 7:51 am

Cards played in Age III, Hand I

CreativeMod1 built a
Study
, which gives a Wheel symbol.
RadiantCowbells bought 1 Glass and 1 Paper from CreativeMod1 for a total of 4 Coins, and built a
Palace
, which gives 8 Victory Points.
Wooper used a construction chain to build a
Pantheon
, which gives 7 Victory Points.
enomis bought 1 Paper from Xtoxm for 2 Coins and built a
Palace
, which gives 8 Victory Points.
Xtoxm built a
Senate
, which gives 6 Victory Points.
Farren bought 1 Wood from Xtoxm for 2 Coins and 1 Ore from GeorgeBailey for 2 Coins, and built
Brotherhood
, which gives 4 Victory Points; in addition, all other players must immediately pay 3 Coins to the bank. As a result, RadiantCowbells receives two {-1} Debt tokens and enomis receives one {-1} Debt token.
GeorgeBailey bought 1 Stone from Isis for 1 Coin and built an
Arena
, which gives 3 Coins immediately for each completed Wonder stage in his city up to this turn and 1 Victory Point for each completed Wonder stage in his city at the end of the game. He gains 3 Coins immediately.
Isis discarded a card for 3 Coins.

Updated boards

Spoiler: CreativeMod1 (China A)

Spoiler: RadiantCowbells (Petra B)

Spoiler: Wooper (Stonehenge B)

Spoiler: enomis (Alexandria B)

Spoiler: Xtoxm (Halikarnassos B)

Spoiler: Farren (Babylon B)

Spoiler: GeorgeBailey (Byzantium A)

Spoiler: Isis (Brussels B)

Spoiler: Discard pile

It is now Age III, Hand II! Hands in Age III are passed to the left (

up the player list

). The next hands have been sent, and players now have (expired on 2020-08-18 15:00:02) to build a card, discard a card for 3 coins, or discard a card to build a Wonder stage. Please respond directly to the PM I sent you with your decision. If you need to buy a resource from a neighbor in order to build a card, please specify which neighbor you are buying from.

Cities notes:

you may notice that not all Cities cards are being placed in the "Cities" area of the board. Basically, if the Cities card falls under an existing "type," I will put it in that area instead - in the current boards, for example, Wooper's Clandestine Dock East is located in the Commercial section because the effect aligns with other Commercial cards; and Isis' Militia card is located in the Military section so that all Shields are in the same place.
Debt tokens are indicated in the Coins section of the board with a {-1} per Debt token.

Xtoxm · Post Post #302 (ISO) » Sun Aug 16, 2020 8:32 am

contingent costs 5 coins (and a cloth)
Isis needs to pay 2 more coins

lilith2013 · Post Post #303 (ISO) » Sun Aug 16, 2020 8:33 am

sorry - I swear the 5's look like 3's on these cards

(updated, but will allow Isis to discard that card for 3 Coins instead if she prefers.)

(((super super sorry guys, I know this has not been the smoothest game)))

RadiantCowbells · Post Post #304 (ISO) » Sun Aug 16, 2020 8:59 am

is it just me who is really not keen on all the coin discard mechanics in cities

Xtoxm · Post Post #305 (ISO) » Sun Aug 16, 2020 9:30 am

this has been annoying me for a while but
the advantage of letting people change their decisions after seeing all the cards is far bigger than the 1 or 2 coins difference in the first place
enomis would have 4 debt tokens, wouldnt have been able to afford palace, etc
this game has a massive asterisk for me

lilith2013 · Post Post #306 (ISO) » Sun Aug 16, 2020 9:50 am

Conversely, I don't think it's fair to penalize players because of mistakes that I made in resolving past actions, and this is the best solution I could come up with on the fly. I recognize it isn't an ideal solution, but in an ideal world, I could reverse time and redo that hand or just not make the mistake in the first place. Unfortunately I'm human and make mistakes, and within the past week or so have been making more than usual due to personal circumstances, and I apologize profusely for the bumps in the game.

I understand if you would no longer like to play and can find a replacement for your slot if you'd like.

enomis · Post Post #307 (ISO) » Sun Aug 16, 2020 5:22 pm

In post 305, Xtoxm wrote:this has been annoying me for a while but
the advantage of letting people change their decisions after seeing all the cards is far bigger than the 1 or 2 coins difference in the first place
enomis would have 4 debt tokens, wouldnt have been able to afford palace, etc
this game has a massive asterisk for me

I would have used courthouse to build wonder because I know I need at least 2 coins in age 3.

So wouldn't have made any difference, so instead of discarding courthouse, I would have used it to build wonder if I knew I only have 2 coins (And discard the last hand).

I only bought it because I saw that I have 4 coins.

enomis · Post Post #308 (ISO) » Sun Aug 16, 2020 5:29 pm

Lilith,

all is good. It is amazing how you didn't make any mistakes in the last game given how many information you need to process every game.

I think it is fair for a player to retake his decision if his decision previously is based on incorrect information. (You never know how a person decides) e.g. I decided to build courthouse because I saw I have 4 coins.

Another method would be to restart the age shuffling all the cards and redistributing again. (But I am ok with the current approach too).

CreativeMod1 · Post Post #309 (ISO) » Sun Aug 16, 2020 5:41 pm

Lilith, we've had a few amazing games and this game is a bit on the complicated side of things, don't let it get you down, you've done a great job and we're all really happy you've modded, you're doing a great job

If you want, I've got half a spreadsheet set up for 7 wonders for modding it as part of a challenge in Zelda, I could fix it up so that it's usable for modding here and it'll make the modding a lot easier

Isis · Post Post #310 (ISO) » Sun Aug 16, 2020 10:35 pm

In post 305, Xtoxm wrote:this has been annoying me for a while but
the advantage of letting people change their decisions after seeing all the cards is far bigger than the 1 or 2 coins difference in the first place
enomis would have 4 debt tokens, wouldnt have been able to afford palace, etc
this game has a massive asterisk for me

I try to pick what I would have picked :shruggle:

lilith2013 · Post Post #311 (ISO) » Mon Aug 17, 2020 12:17 am

Thanks guys - I’m happy to rewind back to the beginning of Age II and reshuffle both Age II and Age III hands if everyone wants to do that.

CM1, I appreciate the offer but as a heads up, this will likely be the final iteration of 7 Wonders that I run. My modding quality has dropped since I first started this thread, and I don’t want to be running a game that has so many mistakes that players are no longer enjoying themselves. If the spreadsheet isn’t too difficult to modify then I will gladly take the help though.

CreativeMod1 · Post Post #312 (ISO) » Mon Aug 17, 2020 1:20 am

I'm happy to play on, I'm not fussed

Personally I'm still enjoying this game and have been enjoying the other games you're modding (and looking forward to Betrayal Mafia too) I'll get working on the spreadsheet anyways and if you're not up for modding the next one then I will if there's interest

lilith2013 · Post Post #313 (ISO) » Mon Aug 17, 2020 3:29 am

<3

Please let me know (privately, if you prefer) if anyone feels strongly about rewinding. I feel very guilty about fucking up so much of the game recently and am leaning towards making that call myself.

ISO · Post Post #314 (ISO) » Mon Aug 17, 2020 5:43 am

I'd prefer not to rewind, myself, but won't object if consensus goes the other way. Either way, I'm enjoying the game.

RadiantCowbells · Post Post #315 (ISO) » Mon Aug 17, 2020 12:37 pm

It's just a Mish mash game that I'm playing for fun

I'll go with the rewind but I really don't think any of this is a big deal so I'd rather just play the game

Isis · Post Post #316 (ISO) » Mon Aug 17, 2020 12:43 pm

I can't imagine rewinding is the best answer.

Rewinding a third of the game when you could instead finish a third of the game to start a new game with the potential for no integrity losses seems better, assuming you want to mod again Lilith

I need to mod a mishmash game soon to balance the force

Wooper · Post Post #317 (ISO) » Mon Aug 17, 2020 4:59 pm

In post 315, RadiantCowbells wrote:It's just a Mish mash game that I'm playing for fun

I'll go with the rewind but I really don't think any of this is a big deal so I'd rather just play the game

This is where I'm at, I'm havin a great time regardless of the decision and am happy for ppl with stronger feelings to go w what makes them happiest!

lilith2013 · Post Post #318 (ISO) » Tue Aug 18, 2020 12:55 pm

Isis decided to discard Contingent in Hand I, and I've updated the boards accordingly. Giving some additional time if anyone would like to change their Hand II card in light of this. (expired on 2020-08-20 08:04:36)

lilith2013 · Post Post #319 (ISO) » Thu Aug 20, 2020 7:03 am

Cards played in Age III, Hand II

CreativeMod1 bought 1 Clay from RadiantCowbells for 2 Coins and built a
Lodge
, which gives a Compass symbol.
RadiantCowbells used a construction chain to build a
Haven
, which gives 1 Coin and 1 Victory Point for each raw material built in his city. He gains 4 Coins immediately.
Wooper discarded a card for 3 Coins.
enomis built a
Town Hall
, which gives 6 Victory Points.
Xtoxm used a card to build the second wonder stage of Halikarnassos B, which gives 1 Victory Point and allows him to build a card from the Discard pile for free.
Farren used a construction chain to build an
Academy
, which gives a Compass symbol.
GeorgeBailey bought 3 Clay from Farren for 6 Coins and built a
Philosophers Guild
, which gives 1 Victory Point for each scientific structure built by his neighbors at the end of the game.
Isis used a construction chain to build a
Senate
, which gives 6 Victory Points.

Updated boards

Spoiler: CreativeMod1 (China A)

Spoiler: RadiantCowbells (Petra B)

Spoiler: Wooper (Stonehenge B)

Spoiler: enomis (Alexandria B)

Spoiler: Xtoxm (Halikarnassos B)

Spoiler: Farren (Babylon B)

Spoiler: GeorgeBailey (Byzantium A)

Spoiler: Isis (Brussels B)

Spoiler: Discard pile

Xtoxm now has (expired on 2020-08-22 14:04:37) to select a card to build from the Discard pile.

CreativeMod1 · Post Post #320 (ISO) » Thu Aug 20, 2020 7:18 am

Lol, i didn't use the discard wonder thing this turn, so I don't need to pick a card....although if I'm being offered a free card than I won't say no xD

lilith2013 · Post Post #321 (ISO) » Thu Aug 20, 2020 7:19 am

lmao sorry.......

lilith2013 · Post Post #322 (ISO) » Sun Aug 23, 2020 4:54 am

Xtoxm built a

Contingent

, which gives 5 Shields.

Spoiler: Xtoxm (Halikarnassos B)

It is now Age III, Hand III! Hands in Age III are passed to the left (

up the player list

). The next hands have been sent, and players now have (expired on 2020-08-25 12:02:55) to build a card, discard a card for 3 coins, or discard a card to build a Wonder stage. Please respond directly to the PM I sent you with your decision. If you need to buy a resource from a neighbor in order to build a card, please specify which neighbor you are buying from.

Cities notes:

you may notice that not all Cities cards are being placed in the "Cities" area of the board. Basically, if the Cities card falls under an existing "type," I will put it in that area instead - in the current boards, for example, Wooper's Clandestine Dock East is located in the Commercial section because the effect aligns with other Commercial cards; and Isis' Militia card is located in the Military section so that all Shields are in the same place.
Debt tokens are indicated in the Coins section of the board with a {-1} per Debt token.

lilith2013 · Post Post #323 (ISO) » Tue Aug 25, 2020 4:26 pm

Cards played in Age III, Hand III

CreativeMod1 used a construction chain to build a
Observatory
, which gives a Wheel symbol.
RadiantCowbells discarded a card for 3 Coins.
Wooper bought 2 Clay from RadiantCowbells for 2 Coins, and built
Gardens
, which give 5 Victory Points.
enomis built a
Magistrates Guild
, which gives 1 Victory Point for each Civilian card built by his neighbors at the end of the game.
Xtoxm built a
Cenotaph
, which gives 5 Victory Points; in addition, all other players must immediately pay 1 Coin to the bank for each Military victory token currently on their board (each positive number in the Military Tokens area of their board counts as one victory token). RadiantCowbells loses 2 Coins, enomis loses 4 Coins, Farren loses 1 Coin, GeorgeBailey loses 1 Coin, and Isis loses 4 Coins. enomis gains 4 {-1} Debt tokens as a result.
Farren bought 1 Ore and 1 Wood from Xtoxm for 4 Coins and 1 Ore from GeorgeBailey for 2 Coins, and built a
Scientists Guild
, which gives an extra scientific symbol of his choice at the end of the game.
GeorgeBailey bought 1 Stone from Isis for 1 Coin and 2 Clay from Farren for 4 Coins, and built a
Builders Guild
, which gives 1 Victory Point for completed Wonder stage built by him and his neighbors at the end of the game.
Isis built a
Town Hall
, which gives 6 Victory Points.

Updated boards

Spoiler: CreativeMod1 (China A)

Spoiler: RadiantCowbells (Petra B)

Spoiler: Wooper (Stonehenge B)

Spoiler: enomis (Alexandria B)

Spoiler: Xtoxm (Halikarnassos B)

Spoiler: Farren (Babylon B)

Spoiler: GeorgeBailey (Byzantium A)

Spoiler: Isis (Brussels B)

Spoiler: Discard pile

It is now Age III, Hand IV! Hands in Age III are passed to the left (

up the player list

). The next hands have been sent, and players now have (expired on 2020-08-27 23:31:20) to build a card, discard a card for 3 coins, or discard a card to build a Wonder stage. Please respond directly to the PM I sent you with your decision. If you need to buy a resource from a neighbor in order to build a card, please specify which neighbor you are buying from.

Cities notes:

you may notice that not all Cities cards are being placed in the "Cities" area of the board. Basically, if the Cities card falls under an existing "type," I will put it in that area instead - in the current boards, for example, Wooper's Clandestine Dock East is located in the Commercial section because the effect aligns with other Commercial cards; and Isis' Militia card is located in the Military section so that all Shields are in the same place.
Debt tokens are indicated in the Coins section of the board with a {-1} per Debt token.

Isis · Post Post #324 (ISO) » Tue Aug 25, 2020 4:29 pm

Friendship ended with Xtoxm, GeorgeBailey is now my best friend

Initial Resource	Cloth
Wonder Stages Built: 2	Stage A: 8 Coins Cost: 2 Wood Stage B: At the end of the game, gain an extra scientific symbol of your choice Cost: 1 Clay, 1 Glass, 1 Paper Stage C: 2 Shields Cost: 3 Stone Stage D: Build a card from the Discard pile for free Cost: 3 Ore
Resources	Raw Materials: Foundry: Produces 2 Ore per turn Manufactured Goods: Press: Produces 1 Paper per turn Glassworks: Produces 1 Glass per turn
Commercial	West Trading Post: Buy raw materials (Clay, Ore, Stone, Wood) from your neighbor to the west (left/above you in the player list) for 1 coin instead of 2 Construction Chain: Forum Marketplace: Buy manufactured goods (Cloth, Glass, Paper) from either neighbor for 1 coin instead of 2 Construction Chain: Caravansery Caravansery: Produces one raw material (Clay, Ore, Stone, or Wood) per turn Construction Chain: Lighthouse
Civilian	None
Scientific	Apothecary: Compass symbol Construction Chain: Stables , Dispensary Workshop: Wheel Symbol Construction Chain: Archery Range , Laboratory Laboratory: Wheel symbol Construction Chain: Siege Workshop , Observatory
Military	None
Guilds	None
Cities	Pigeon Loft: At the end of the game, copy the Scientific symbol of a green card from one of your neighbors
Coins: 13	Military Tokens: -1, -1, -1

Initial Resource	Clay
Wonder Stages Built: 1	Stage 1: 3 Victory Points; all players other than you must pay 2 Coins to the bank immediately Cost: 2 Ore, 2 Clay Stage 2: 14 Victory Points Cost: 14 Coins
Resources	Raw Materials: Forest Cave: Produces 1 Wood or 1 Ore per turn Excavation: Produces 1 Stone or 1 Clay per turn Ore Vein: Produces 1 Ore per turn Lumber Yard: Produces 1 Wood per turn Manufactured Goods:
Commercial	Forum: Produces one manufactured good (Cloth, Glass, or Paper) per turn Construction Chain: Haven
Civilian	Courthouse: 4 Victory Points
Scientific	None
Military	Archery Range: 2 Shields Training Ground: 2 Shields Construction Chain: Circus Stables: 2 Shields
Guilds	None
Cities	Lair: 3 Victory Points; all other players must pay 2 Coins to the bank immediately
Coins: 5	Military Tokens: +3, +3

Initial Resource	Wood
Wonder Stages Built: 1	Stage 1: Gain 1 Coin for each Stone produced by your raw materials (brown) cards at the time of building this Wonder stage; gain 1 Victory Point for each Stone produced by your raw materials (brown) cards at the end of the game Cost: 3 Ore Stage 2: At the end of the game, reveal the card used to build this Wonder stage and gain 1 Victory Point for each card of that color present in your neighbors’ cities Cost: 3 Clay, 1 Paper
Resources	Raw Materials: Mine: Produces either 1 Ore or 1 Stone per turn Manufactured Goods:
Commercial	Marketplace: Buy manufactured goods (Cloth, Glass, Paper) from either neighbor for 1 coin instead of 2 Construction Chain: Caravansery Clandestine Dock East: Receive a rebate of 1 Coin per turn when you buy any resources from your neighbor to the east (right/below you in the player list) West Trading Post: Buy raw materials (Clay, Ore, Stone, Wood) from your neighbor to the west (left/above you in the player list) for 1 coin instead of 2 Construction Chain: Forum Tavern: 5 Coins Caravansery: Produces one raw material (Clay, Ore, Stone, or Wood) per turn Construction Chain: Lighthouse
Civilian	Baths: 3 Victory Points Construction Chain: Aqueduct Aqueduckt: 5 Victory Points Temple: 3 Victory Points Construction Chain: Pantheon
Scientific	Dispensary: Compass symbol Construction Chain: Arena , Lodge
Military	Archery Range: 2 Shields
Guilds	None
Cities	None
Coins: 3; {-1}	Military Tokens: -1, -1, -1

Initial Resource	Glass
Wonder Stages Built: 2	Stage 1: Produce one raw material of your choice (Wood, Clay, Ore, Stone) each turn Cost: 2 Clay Stage 2: Produce one manufactured good of your choice (Glass, Cloth, Paper) each turn Cost: 2 Wood Stage 3: 7 Victory Points Cost: 3 Stone
Resources	Raw Materials: Tree Farm: Produces either 1 Wood or 1 Clay per turn Clay Pool: Produces 1 Clay per turn Stone Pit: Produces 1 Stone per turn Manufactured Goods:
Commercial	Caravansery: Produces one raw material (Clay, Ore, Stone, or Wood) per turn Construction Chain: Lighthouse
Civilian	Statue: 4 Victory Points Construction Chain: Gardens
Scientific	None
Military	Stockade: 1 Shield Training Ground: 2 Shields Construction Chain: Circus Walls: 2 Shields Construction Chain: Fortifications
Guilds	None
Cities	None
Coins: 4	Military Tokens: +1, +1, +3, +3

Initial Resource	Cloth
Wonder Stages Built: 1	Stage 1: 2 Victory Points; Build a card from the Discard pile for free Cost: 2 Ore Stage 2: 1 Victory Point; build a card from the Discard pile for free Cost: 3 Clay Stage 3: Build a card from the Discard pile for free Cost: 1 Cloth, 1 Paper, 1 Glass
Resources	Raw Materials: Clay Pool: Produces 1 Clay per turn Clay Pit: Produces either 1 Clay or 1 Ore per turn Stone Pit: Produces 1 Stone per turn Sawmill: Produces 2 Wood per turn Manufactured Goods: Press: Produces 1 Paper per turn
Commercial	Secret Warehouse: Each turn, produces 1 of any resource that your city already produces through your raw materials/brown cards, manufactured goods/gray cards, or initial resource Vineyard: Gain 1 Coin for each raw material built by you and your neighbors, up to and including this turn Forum: Produces one manufactured good (Cloth, Glass, or Paper) per turn Construction Chain: Haven Bazaar: Gain 2 Coins for each manufactured good built by you and your neighbors, up to and including this turn
Civilian	Baths: 3 Victory Points Construction Chain: Aqueduct
Scientific	None
Military	Mercenaries: 3 Shields
Guilds	None
Cities	Gates of the City: 4 Victory Points
Coins: 8	Military Tokens: -1, -1, -1, +3

Initial Resource	Stone
Wonder Stages Built: 1	Stage 1: 3 Victory Points Cost: 1 Clay, 1 Ore Stage 2: 2 Victory Points; receive a Diplomacy token - at the end of the Age in which this stage is built, you do not take part in any military conflicts (your neighbors will face each other instead of you) Cost: 2 Wood, 1 Paper Stage 3: 7 Victory Points Cost: 2 Clay, 1 Glass, 1 Cloth
Resources	Raw Materials: Ore Vein: Produces 1 Ore per turn Manufactured Goods: Loom: Produces 1 Cloth per turn Glassworks: Produces 1 Glass per turn
Commercial	East Trading Post: Buy raw materials (Clay, Ore, Stone, Wood) from your neighbor to the east (right/below you in the player list) for 1 coin instead of 2 Construction Chain: Forum Forum: Produces one manufactured good (Cloth, Glass, or Paper) per turn Construction Chain: Haven
Civilian	Theater: 2 Victory Points Construction Chain: Statue
Scientific	None
Military	Barracks: 1 Shield
Guilds	None
Cities	Gambling House: 9 Coins; your neighbors receive 2 Coins each Tabularium: 6 Victory Points
Coins: 19	Military Tokens: +1, -1, -1

Initial Resource	+4 Coins at the beginning of the game
Wonder Stages Built: 1	Stage 1: 7 Coins, 7 Victory Points, and 1 Shield Cost: 1 Clay, 1 Ore, 1 Stone, 1 Wood, 1 Glass, 1 Paper, 1 Cloth
Resources	Raw Materials: Lumber Yard: Produces 1 Wood per turn Quarry: Produces 2 Stone per turn Manufactured Goods: Glassworks: Produces 1 Glass per turn
Commercial	Tavern: 5 Coins
Civilian	None
Scientific	Apothecary: Compass symbol Construction Chain: Stables , Dispensary Library: Tablet symbol Construction Chain: Senate , University Dispensary: Compass symbol Construction Chain: Arena , Lodge
Military	Militia: 2 Shields Stables: 2 Shields
Guilds	None
Cities	Gambling Den: 6 Coins; your neighbors receive 1 Coin each Black Market: Each turn, produces 1 of any resource that your city does not already produce through your raw materials/brown cards, manufactured goods/gray cards, or initial resource
Coins: 10	Military Tokens: +1, +1, +3, +3