Suggestion for a new sub forum

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MaryJoLisa
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Post Post #0  (ISO)  » Wed May 15, 2019 7:57 am

Can we have a place to play some basic games that fall somewhere between the newbie level and the normal games? I notice the SE queue in the newbie area has about a 3 week wait to get into a game and there’s really nowhere to go to play just a simple, basic game. The backlog of SEs waiting to play newbie games suggests that players do have an interest in playing these types of games. It might be beneficial to have another forum that operates like the newbie area that is intended for people who are ready for a bit more of a challenge.

The normal and open sub forums are great and offer more challenging, and creative set-ups, but because the normal area allows for extensive role modifiers and the open forum allows for non-traditional game setups, these areas are not addressing the need for light, basic games for all players to play with a fairly short queue time.

I would love for my proposed sub forum to be a place that runs semi-open games similar to the newbie setup grid, but with more roles and no role modifiers. It would be great if the queue operated as the newbie queue does where it’s first come, first serve, and the game starts when the slots are filled. Players can quickly get into a basic game when they want to play something simple without a long wait time. At the very least, I figure that a sub-forum like this can keep players engaged and active while they wait in queue for other games.
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Post Post #1  (ISO)  » Wed May 15, 2019 3:28 pm

VOTE: MJL's suggestion

I'm in that awkward place where I've played enough to not be completely clueless but also not good enough to realistically be in any slot other than a newbie slot. Newbie setups feel good and classic, just the perfect amount of players and power roles. Perhaps such a game type would be a good segue for first-time moderators too!
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Post Post #2  (ISO)  » Wed May 15, 2019 5:02 pm

Modifiers, in many ways, serve to be a testing ground for the creation of new roles, actually.

Their main purpose is to strengthen/weaken the roles in question, but what quite a number of modifiers do is effectively create a new role--Loyal/Weak modifiers make whatever role they're attached to suddenly become investigatives in addition to what other type they were before, for instance, and I don't really see much of a difference between, sayyyyy, a Loyal Neighborizer and a Masonizer? (Well, there's some; the former isn't conftown and is thus a weaker role, but in function they're quite similar. They serve as an investigative which if successful gives private communication.)

A queue with 'more roles and no modifiers' is literally just "a queue with the same roles and modifiers, just differently named".

The example I gave was a fairly realistic one but let's give a more hypothetical one.

What's the difference between a role named "Weak Doctor", a Doctor role with the Weak modifier... (a role that protects a player, but dies if targeting someone of a different alignment)
...And a role named, oh, I dunno, Surgeon, a role which has the effect that they protect a player but die if targeting someone of a different alignment?

The two are functionally the same, yes?
Asking for a queue which has "more roles" looks to me like you're asking for the latter, but I don't see how that's different from the former.
If you have more roles to keep track of, those roles are just going to be "roles with modifiers, except named differently".
Literally the only difference I see is in the name. Weak Doctor (role + modifier), versus Surgeon (new role).

We already have as many roles Normalized as we can, pretty much. (Unless they are given very good reasons to not be.)
You can't get MORE roles than what's in the Normal without using things that are currently modifiers.
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Post Post #3  (ISO)  » Wed May 15, 2019 5:16 pm

Basically--modifiers serve as a universal standard to use across roles, allowing for the creation of new roles.
If you made a role that could only act on non-consecutive nights, then you could make that a fundamental part of that role. Like, maybe you have a new role named Investigator, which determines the alignment of a player like a Cop, but can't act on two nights in a row.

That's literally just a Cop with the modifier Nonconsecutive.

Maybe you have a new role named Protector, which protects a player from a nightkill, but can't act on two nights in a row.

That's literally just a Doctor with the modifier Nonconsecutive.

Maybe you have a new role named Punisher, which kills a player, but can't act on two nights in a row.

That's literally just a Vigilante with the modifier Nonconsecutive.

With the Nonconsecutive modifier, you have one extra thing to keep track of, the modifier, and then you have each of those as established roles.
With no modifier, you have three extra things to keep track of, each new role.
Nonconsecutive as a modifier adds one thing; each role which is "basically role X, but with the modifier nonconsecutive" adds that many extras.

What's the advantage in having literally hundreds of extra roles to keep track of, when those same roles can be summarized as being simple modifications to a much smaller number of roles?

I'm just confused in that I don't see how a queue like this would be easier? It'd seem like it'd just make things much, much harder.
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Post Post #4  (ISO)  » Wed May 15, 2019 5:17 pm

No, I meant more roles than are found in the Newbie area. Like fruit vendor or vigilante. Plain old mafia roles without bells and whistles.
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Post Post #5  (ISO)  » Wed May 15, 2019 5:18 pm

In post 4, MaryJoLisa wrote:No, I meant more roles than are found in the Newbie area. Like fruit vendor or vigilante. Plain old mafia roles without bells and whistles.
Oh, then I wouldn't call that "more roles"; I'd call that "the same amount of roles". :P
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Post Post #6  (ISO)  » Wed May 15, 2019 5:19 pm

In post 0, MaryJoLisa wrote:Can we have a place to play some basic games that fall somewhere between the newbie level and the normal games? I notice the SE queue in the newbie area has about a 3 week wait to get into a game and there’s really nowhere to go to play just a simple, basic game. The backlog of SEs waiting to play newbie games suggests that players do have an interest in playing these types of games. It might be beneficial to have another forum that operates like the newbie area that is intended for people who are ready for a bit more of a challenge.

Are you looking for something like...an open queue?
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Post Post #7  (ISO)  » Wed May 15, 2019 5:23 pm

A wider range of possible, classic roles so that it's a step more advanced than the newbie area.
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Post Post #8  (ISO)  » Wed May 15, 2019 5:25 pm

In post 6, Creature wrote:Are you looking for something like...an open queue?


I browsed through the open queue but I didn't notice a uniform game style.
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Post Post #9  (ISO)  » Wed May 15, 2019 5:28 pm

Yeh, quite sucks the open queue is now filled with experimental uninteresting setups rather than the classic open setups. It's something you gotta talk with the open queue listmod.
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Post Post #10  (ISO)  » Wed May 15, 2019 11:07 pm

I actually somewhat like experimental setups, I actually dislike ones that feel trite or bad
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Post Post #11  (ISO)  » Thu May 16, 2019 12:05 am

Micro Queue also exists. Find People willing to mod the games you want, that's going to be the problem even if you do offer a new area.
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Post Post #12  (ISO)  » Thu May 16, 2019 1:55 am

In post 9, Creature wrote:Yeh, quite sucks the open queue is now filled with experimental uninteresting setups rather than the classic open setups. It's something you gotta talk with the open queue listmod.

:up:

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Post Post #13  (ISO)  » Thu May 16, 2019 3:17 am

In post 6, Creature wrote:
In post 0, MaryJoLisa wrote:Can we have a place to play some basic games that fall somewhere between the newbie level and the normal games? I notice the SE queue in the newbie area has about a 3 week wait to get into a game and there’s really nowhere to go to play just a simple, basic game. The backlog of SEs waiting to play newbie games suggests that players do have an interest in playing these types of games. It might be beneficial to have another forum that operates like the newbie area that is intended for people who are ready for a bit more of a challenge.

Are you looking for something like...an open queue?


Ding ding

When I finish a game with somewhat experienced newbies who I feel would benefit from a chance to stretch their brains sideways I usually recommend the open queue

the open queue is p much what you're asking for I think, and another queue in between newbie and the rest of the queues feels redundant imo. games in the open queue have an exclusively pre-disclosed setup. you could theoretically run the newbie setup through the open queue I guess. :P

but yea if you feel like you're not ready for the confusion of unlimited roles (thrmes/normals etc.) but want more variety than the newbie game matrix definitely keep an eye on the open queue!
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Post Post #14  (ISO)  » Thu May 16, 2019 3:26 am

Actually quirky side thought: could you tell me a bit about the kinds of setups you'd like to see? I would be keen to mod more over the next few months tbh and if there's a really specific demand I'll just run that

https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?ti ... pen_Setups

https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?ti ... pen_Setups

these pages might be worth having a look at if you're reading this and going like "speak English ducky....." but I'd be interested in knowing what kind of experience you're looking for. I'm reading this as something like 'a controlled setup environment with limited possibilities/unknown factors, but faster filling than the newbie queue for SEs and without the additional baggage of it being the newbie queue'?
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Post Post #15  (ISO)  » Thu May 16, 2019 8:20 am

In post 13, the worst wrote:
In post 6, Creature wrote:
In post 0, MaryJoLisa wrote:Can we have a place to play some basic games that fall somewhere between the newbie level and the normal games? I notice the SE queue in the newbie area has about a 3 week wait to get into a game and there’s really nowhere to go to play just a simple, basic game. The backlog of SEs waiting to play newbie games suggests that players do have an interest in playing these types of games. It might be beneficial to have another forum that operates like the newbie area that is intended for people who are ready for a bit more of a challenge.

Are you looking for something like...an open queue?


Ding ding

When I finish a game with somewhat experienced newbies who I feel would benefit from a chance to stretch their brains sideways I usually recommend the open queue

the open queue is p much what you're asking for I think, and another queue in between newbie and the rest of the queues feels redundant imo. games in the open queue have an exclusively pre-disclosed setup. you could theoretically run the newbie setup through the open queue I guess. :P

but yea if you feel like you're not ready for the confusion of unlimited roles (thrmes/normals etc.) but want more variety than the newbie game matrix definitely keep an eye on the open queue!


I was thinking that it would be good to have a setup much like the newbie role grid but it contains more possible combinations, thereby “advancing” the level of the game. I’d like an area where I can play some games, experience some PRs and get a feel for how they work and how I can use them to my benefit before role modifiers and less common roles are added to the game.

I’d really like to play doctor or cop a few times and get good at handling that role before I roll doctor in a more advanced game only to learn that my targets have a 50/50 chance of being killed, or that my investigation results are sometimes bad (these examples are from browsing the wiki and I have no idea if they’re included in normal setups.)

I suspect there are other new players and casual or occasional site users who would benefit from a basic mafia setup that they can jump into fairly quickly because the games would be first come first serve and once a queue fills up, the game begins before another queue starts. Exactly as how the newbie queue works.
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Post Post #16  (ISO)  » Thu May 16, 2019 6:36 pm

I would like to see a queue dedicated to any of the following:
Mountainous
White Flag
Cop 13ers or Cop 9ers
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Post Post #17  (ISO)  » Thu May 16, 2019 6:39 pm

In post 16, Alisae wrote:I would like to see a queue dedicated to any of the following:
Mountainous
White Flag
Cop 13ers or Cop 9ers

Don't forget:
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Post Post #18  (ISO)  » Thu May 16, 2019 6:41 pm

In post 17, Creature wrote:
In post 16, Alisae wrote:I would like to see a queue dedicated to any of the following:
Mountainous
White Flag
Cop 13ers or Cop 9ers

Don't forget:
Fire and Ice
C9++
JK9++
Duck, Duck, Goose
09:12
Friends and Enemies
stop
those are the bad setups
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Post Post #19  (ISO)  » Thu May 16, 2019 6:51 pm

What is Cop13er?
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Post Post #20  (ISO)  » Thu May 16, 2019 6:56 pm

3v10 with only one cop.
I think your concerns about "hidden modifiers" are largely part of antiquated site culture (where e.g. cop sanities were not guaranteed; it was not common knowledge to immediately claim miller; etc.). Your role pm in any normal or open game should contain all of the information about your role unless there are other public mechanics which impact on it. :)

I sincerely think that playing opens will increase your level of comfort with alternate mechanics and the like. As for rolling certain power roles... that just takes time, and playing the newbie setup 10 times doesn't guarantee that you'll get cop experience, for example.

I'm personally kinda in the Ali camp of loving to play games with nearly zero power roles. :lol: I feel really silly asking this but have you tried some Town of Salem or chat mafia type setups? Games there are usually rapid-fire, and you'll get a tiny bit of exposure to things very quickly. Unfortunately their communities usually aren't all that strong.

Btw definitely make sure if you have any free time next week to venture into the marathon sub-forum. Those games are great fun and you'll get to see some pretty neat roles and mechanics in very quick games. :)
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Post Post #21  (ISO)  » Thu May 16, 2019 8:30 pm

In post 20, the worst wrote:3v10 with only one cop.
I think your concerns about "hidden modifiers" are largely part of antiquated site culture (where e.g. cop sanities were not guaranteed; it was not common knowledge to immediately claim miller; etc.). Your role pm in any normal or open game should contain all of the information about your role unless there are other public mechanics which impact on it. :)

I sincerely think that playing opens will increase your level of comfort with alternate mechanics and the like. As for rolling certain power roles... that just takes time, and playing the newbie setup 10 times doesn't guarantee that you'll get cop experience, for example.

I'm personally kinda in the Ali camp of loving to play games with nearly zero power roles. :lol: I feel really silly asking this but have you tried some Town of Salem or chat mafia type setups? Games there are usually rapid-fire, and you'll get a tiny bit of exposure to things very quickly. Unfortunately their communities usually aren't all that strong.

Btw definitely make sure if you have any free time next week to venture into the marathon sub-forum. Those games are great fun and you'll get to see some pretty neat roles and mechanics in very quick games. :)


I'll be sure to swing by the marathon. Looking forward to it. :]

Based on people's feedback, Town of Salem may not have the depth that i'm looking for. I've never tried chat mafia, either.

I'll also try another mini normal and see if I can't make it fit for me. After that, I guess I'll try the open queue. thanks for the advice.
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Post Post #22  (ISO)  » Fri May 17, 2019 12:01 am

No problems at all. :) The other thing I'd urge you: if you aren't sure about something, ask the game's mod! If you're a cop, and aren't 100% certain if your results are concrete, check with them. Regardless of the type of game they'll know their restrictions better than you will, most of the time.

You'll never get an answer like "nah fam there's a miller in this setup" if it's not an open setup, but they will be able to give you some framework around what to expect... Even if it's to expect the unexpected, that's better than flying blind, right? :lol:
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Post Post #23  (ISO)  » Fri May 17, 2019 1:05 am

In post 20, the worst wrote:I sincerely think that playing opens will increase your level of comfort with alternate mechanics and the like. As for rolling certain power roles... that just takes time, and playing the newbie setup 10 times doesn't guarantee that you'll get cop experience, for example.

I agree!

I do sympathize with the feeling of "venturing into the unknown" when it comes to transitioning out of Newbie games, but I strongly urge you to try Open games anyway. I think what will eventually happen is that you will feel overwhelmed for a game or two but then will adjust fairly quickly to the site meta here. As in, the learning curve can be steep at first, but that's totally normal and after a few games, you'll be playing comfortably like everyone else.

I also don't feel like you should feel burdened with the need to know everything in order to play a game with more experienced players. I myself have been playing for over a year, and even so, I find myself learning something new with every game. Don't let that deter you :)

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Post Post #24  (ISO)  » Fri May 17, 2019 1:06 am

I don't play as many open games as I used to, but the open queue regulars used to be relatively chill too

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