Discussion for Changes to MS Policies (11/22/20)

This forum is for ideas for the layout of the site and forums, both appearance and content.
zoraster
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Post Post #0  (ISO)  » Sun Nov 22, 2020 3:18 pm

This is for discussing this thread.

Please keep this thread on topic and constructive. While these policies are intended to be implemented immediately, we are listening for constructive feedback.
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Alisae
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Post Post #1  (ISO)  » Sun Nov 22, 2020 3:26 pm

This is a step in the right direction
Good job I’m really happy with this
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Untrod Tripod
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Post Post #2  (ISO)  » Sun Nov 22, 2020 3:27 pm

The Discussion Mod team deserves a lot of appreciation for doing this. Thanks Discomods and Mister Zor.
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Post Post #3  (ISO)  » Sun Nov 22, 2020 3:29 pm

I like this too! :) *goes back to semi lurkerdom*
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Post Post #4  (ISO)  » Sun Nov 22, 2020 3:33 pm

The discmods and zor did so much for this. All did so great. Gold stars for all.
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Post Post #5  (ISO)  » Sun Nov 22, 2020 3:33 pm

This is indeed a good change, and I appreciate all the hard work that went into this.
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Post Post #6  (ISO)  » Sun Nov 22, 2020 3:41 pm

ego
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northsidegal
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Post Post #7  (ISO)  » Sun Nov 22, 2020 5:24 pm

zoraster wrote:Use of scripts or other devices to functionally ignore the presence and posts of another player in a game is not allowed.

General Discussion will now be non-indexed. In other words, only registered users will be able to see General Discussion and all topics therein. This does not include Mafia Discussion.

i'm not sure i really understand the rationale for these changes.

for what it's worth, i have never used my ignore script on anyone other than a confirmed scum treestump in a theme game, i'm just unsure why it's banned. it may not be polite but presumably you don't have to interact with anyone in a game (within the purview of still playing to your win condition), so it seems a little strange to ban ignoring scripts specifically. after all, you could just ignore people the old fashioned way, no?

zoraster
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Post Post #8  (ISO)  » Sun Nov 22, 2020 6:10 pm

Do you mean ignore just by ignoring what they're saying or ignoring via the foe function? Because the foe function purposefully does not work with mafia games, and this is explicitly banning the practice of getting around that.

You are, of course, within your rights not to read people's posts.
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northsidegal
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Post Post #9  (ISO)  » Sun Nov 22, 2020 6:17 pm

i mean just ignoring what they're saying. i guess my question is if you can just ignore people the old fashioned way, why bother banning a method of ignoring them some other way?

also interested in why GD is no longer indexed / available without an account. i don't frequently read it while logged out but i might have looked through it before i first made an account, and i might imagine others could do this as well, to get an idea of sort of what the MS community is like before making an account. it seems to me like the speakeasy already served the purpose of a non-indexed section specifically in a private setting.

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Post Post #10  (ISO)  » Sun Nov 22, 2020 6:18 pm

I'll have to say I like the expectations for users... kinda feeling this community is hostile to anyone with politics right of center and I consider myself a libertarian (I mostly support liberty, though equality of opportunity is necessary to have a free society) so that's why I avoid General Discussion like the plague.

I think "assume good faith" is a policy that should be enshrined as an actual policy though...
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Post Post #11  (ISO)  » Sun Nov 22, 2020 6:27 pm

In post 9, northsidegal wrote:i mean just ignoring what they're saying. i guess my question is if you can just ignore people the old fashioned way, why bother banning a method of ignoring them some other way?


Why bother using the method if you can ignore the old fashioned way? Because the two things are in fact different.
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Post Post #12  (ISO)  » Sun Nov 22, 2020 6:33 pm

In post 9, northsidegal wrote:also interested in why GD is no longer indexed / available without an account. i don't frequently read it while logged out but i might have looked through it before i first made an account, and i might imagine others could do this as well, to get an idea of sort of what the MS community is like before making an account. it seems to me like the speakeasy already served the purpose of a non-indexed section specifically in a private setting.

We decided for the sake of increased privacy that General Discussion should be at least be placed behind an authentication wall, especially since we are also restricting the Speakeasy to age 18+.
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Post Post #13  (ISO)  » Sun Nov 22, 2020 6:34 pm

I'm very confused by the SE/GD change.

Making GD no-indexed is a great move, but locking SE behind an 18+ barrier seems like an odd choice to me, is not one I understand the logic of, and quite honestly feels ageist.
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northsidegal
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Post Post #14  (ISO)  » Sun Nov 22, 2020 6:42 pm

In post 11, zoraster wrote:
In post 9, northsidegal wrote:i mean just ignoring what they're saying. i guess my question is if you can just ignore people the old fashioned way, why bother banning a method of ignoring them some other way?


Why bother using the method if you can ignore the old fashioned way? Because the two things are in fact different.

various reasons, i'd imagine. convenience comes to mind first, although again i have never done this except in unique circumstances so i can only imagine.

i'm not trying to be hostile. i recognize that ignoring someone normally and using a script are, in fact, different things. i'm just interested in the rationale behind the banning of the latter.

In post 12, Equinox wrote:
In post 9, northsidegal wrote:also interested in why GD is no longer indexed / available without an account. i don't frequently read it while logged out but i might have looked through it before i first made an account, and i might imagine others could do this as well, to get an idea of sort of what the MS community is like before making an account. it seems to me like the speakeasy already served the purpose of a non-indexed section specifically in a private setting.

We decided for the sake of increased privacy that General Discussion should be at least be placed behind an authentication wall, especially since we are also restricting the Speakeasy to age 18+.

i'm not really a huge fan of that change or rationale, honestly. i think that given that a significant amount of mafiascum is made up of the community/discussion-side rather than purely the mafia-side that there should be some part of the site community visible to non-users that isn't just mafia games, and i say this as someone who i think most people would consider pretty overwhelmingly on the mafia side rather than the discussion side. again, i thought that the speakeasy was meant to serve as the private location. it seems with both GD and the speakeasy being non-indexed and non-available to logged out users that the only real difference between the two is that one is 18+ only and requires a mod to get around to adding you to it. i don't really like that increased overlap in purposes.

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Post Post #15  (ISO)  » Sun Nov 22, 2020 6:44 pm

To make this point in a separate post for the sake of clarity:

Why are we making Speakeasy 18+? Is this a choice that we're making solely to differentiate the two? Are we looking for the speakeasy to be the place for more adult content? Do we want it to be the place to have more honest and open discussions? Something else I'm missing?

If this is a place to discuss 18+ content, I guess? But honestly, I don't see much of it, so this would effectively kill the speakeasy. If we're looking for a place with more open and honest discussions, throwing the 18+ label behind it means that we're not getting the views from underage users. And it's not like once someone hits 18 they suddenly become incredibly introspective on the world or anything.

This is before we get into the fact that the Speakeasy contains the threads that are honestly some of the most important for our underaged users, like Guys Part 2 (which SHOULD stay here) and the trans* thread.
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Post Post #16  (ISO)  » Sun Nov 22, 2020 7:04 pm

Whew nothing terrible.
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Post Post #17  (ISO)  » Sun Nov 22, 2020 7:07 pm

Also sweet no kids in the speakeasy and an unindexed gd are truly unlooked for blessings.
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Post Post #18  (ISO)  » Sun Nov 22, 2020 7:37 pm

So like, if things are indexed, banned users can use GD activity to harass or stalk users still on the site. That's a hard stop for me, not gonna support anything that leads to potentially opening up the userbase to harassment. And this isn't an abstract concept, it's very real and very dangerous. It is true that the community nature could play a role in getting people to decide to play here, but IMO that loses in the importance of protecting the community from ill-intentioned users. For example: say a user is banned for sexual harassment, but an in-person meetup is organized via GD. That banned user can still see the details of the meetup. That's a massive problem.

As for the 18+ on the Speakeasy -- straight up, we know users are going to discuss more adult concepts and content, and we want to wall that off from underaged users. We're complying with what we believe is a good idea that "allowing minors to be in the room while adults are discussing sexually explicit topics could be problematic". Guys Pt 2, while doing SOME good for underage users, is EXACTLY the type of thread we wouldn't want minors in because it is actually very sexually explicit to the point that I'd be very uncomfortable with a minor participating in those discussions. Exposing a minor to explicit content can be construed as abuse. There are potential liability issues, plus just us doing our due diligence to make sure we're creating spaces for the community where people are protected. We debated 18+ vs 16+ for a while but decided on 18+ due to the site being hosted/living in the US. Our hope is that by making GD nonindexed, some of those discussion topics that were posted in SE because of the privacy issue will be able to be discussed more openly in GD moving forward.
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Post Post #19  (ISO)  » Sun Nov 22, 2020 7:46 pm

If this is how we're doing things, I'd like to see "official" GD threads for LGBT+ issues and as well as potentially other topics. Because I do feel like this is an important thing that we do need, and having it come from the mods would help in the transition.

That said, I feel like the migration you're expecting won't be happening nearly as much as the mods expect it to. For this to work effectively, I do think there needs to be more than "hey Speakeasy is for adult topics now" and just leave it at that - because those not locked out of the speakeasy won't change their behaviours unless they got age banned, thereby requiring them to. This is basic human psychology at work.

EDIT: Ideally, a GD/SE pinned thread going "OK here's the deal" for this would be wonderful as well - because I didn't quite get the logic until it was explained, and now our only explanation is in site ideas.
Last edited by Silverclaw on Sun Nov 22, 2020 7:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Post #20  (ISO)  » Sun Nov 22, 2020 7:49 pm

In post 1, Alisae wrote:This is a step in the right direction
Good job I’m really happy with this
Said much the same to zor before I saw this thread was a thing. <3

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Post Post #21  (ISO)  » Sun Nov 22, 2020 7:53 pm

I'm not sure discussion threads need to be run by mods actually. I mean someone (obviously not me) should just make that thread.
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Post Post #22  (ISO)  » Sun Nov 22, 2020 7:55 pm

In post 21, Ythan wrote:I'm not sure discussion threads need to be run by mods actually. I mean someone (obviously not me) should just make that thread.


Do they need to? Obviously not - but having the skittles do it lends it an air of "officiality" that would make users more likely to post in there as opposed to using the previous threads.
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Post Post #23  (ISO)  » Sun Nov 22, 2020 7:56 pm

Previous threads like Guys pt 2? We are discussing a gd alternative to that one right?
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Post Post #24  (ISO)  » Sun Nov 22, 2020 7:57 pm

Yup.
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