Scummies Ideas, Suggestions and Comments Thread

This forum is for discussion related to the game.
User avatar
MattP
MattP
Dr. Feelgood
User avatar
User avatar
MattP
Dr. Feelgood
Dr. Feelgood
Posts: 13356
Joined: August 22, 2011
Location: on honeymoon at red lobster with chevre

Post Post #825 (ISO) » Sat Feb 13, 2016 8:22 am

Post by MattP »

Like Professor Mafia and Community Contributer are the ones I am thinking of. I don't agree we live in a post-theory world for mafia. It's a game of psychology. I don't think we will ever have it fully figured out. And site meta slowly changes and new theory becomes relevant. Just because noone right now cares about writing theory doesn't mean that it's all solved, I just think site meta wise noone is particularly interested in writing theory. I just don't get what the harm is of having the award around as a possibility that's not always taken advantage of rather than making it no longer an option. If we suddenly get a handful of really avid professor mafias midway through 2016 they won't be able to qualify for the award based on...the premise of us assuming that wouldn't happen? It just seems like a silly reason to remove it. And it's such a small amount of work too to decide if someone qualifies for professor mafia or community contrib
SlappyKrust
User avatar
MattP
MattP
Dr. Feelgood
User avatar
User avatar
MattP
Dr. Feelgood
Dr. Feelgood
Posts: 13356
Joined: August 22, 2011
Location: on honeymoon at red lobster with chevre

Post Post #826 (ISO) » Sat Feb 13, 2016 8:23 am

Post by MattP »

For community contrib, yeah, it reflects poorly to choose someone based on them hosting a meet, so then we could just amend it so that meets won't be taken into account for the award rather than removing the award altogether
SlappyKrust
User avatar
MattP
MattP
Dr. Feelgood
User avatar
User avatar
MattP
Dr. Feelgood
Dr. Feelgood
Posts: 13356
Joined: August 22, 2011
Location: on honeymoon at red lobster with chevre

Post Post #827 (ISO) » Sat Feb 13, 2016 8:28 am

Post by MattP »

I also as a lesser thing that probably would never happen kind of think it would be cool to have "Most Enjoyable" be a people's choice award (as in, a popular vote), because yeah why should a few people try to objectify enjoyability, that's stupid, but it would also add a nice little extra mechanic to the scummies of having the average person on the forum having a say for one of the awards. And if the counter-argument to this is, "it's basically then just a glorified popularity contest"...so what? Isn't saying someone is the "most enjoyable" just an extension of saying they are the most popular in games? And I don't think it would hurt anyone's feelings, we wouldn't need to say who got 2nd, 3rd, etc, just the winner.

Ok I'm done hurray for quadruple posting!

FTR I agree that Best Town was good to take out even if it's racy and I agree the problems with most enjoyable made it stupid to have as an award I am not trying to just systematically pick apart every change. I just think changing the way we look at community contrib, prof mafia, and most enjoyable could make them easily still usable while also adding very little extra work. It makes most enjoyable be up to the users, and the other two don't need to be awarded every year
SlappyKrust
User avatar
Venmar
Venmar
He/Him
Jack of All Trades
User avatar
User avatar
Venmar
He/Him
Jack of All Trades
Jack of All Trades
Posts: 7313
Joined: May 6, 2012
Pronoun: He/Him
Location: Vancouver

Post Post #828 (ISO) » Sat Feb 13, 2016 12:37 pm

Post by Venmar »

I'm just going to chime in for a second:

In post 798, xRECKONERx wrote:I believe: the people who dislike the removal of "Best Town Team" seem to think that the removal of that award means that townies working together will somehow be devalued or ignored. That is not the case,
and if it winds up being the case, we can reassess
.

Reck makes a valid point here that I think should be acknowledged; we as the SSC have continually made changes to the Scummies more or less every single year. We constantly assess and re-assess awards to see if they're worth removing, improving/re-defining, or if we should add new awards (like when we added the Game of the Year Award). By the end of the year, we will assess 2016 and decide if removing Best Town Team was the right way to go. If not, we'll consider bringing the award back. The past couple of years have been characterised by the SSC trimming an award or two every year; I think with proper reflection certain awards can be brought back if an re-assessment warrants it.

In post 824, MattP wrote:Something I don't get honestly is using "The past few years noone has qualified for this award" as reason to remove it. Like, then an award can exist but just not be given every year. That's like commonplace for a lot of awards. It makes it even more meaningful when it is given.

For the record I have always been one of the few on the committee who has been against trimming awards just because they are under-nominated or just for the sake of making judging easier; HOWEVER, I agree now in hindsight that trimming the awards that have gone was a good quality of life improvement now in the long tun. Certain awards that we trimmed long time ago, like the award for the best fakeclaim, for example, was a good change since I hope everybody today can agree that was a bit of a silly award. Certain other awards down the road however we can eventually decide might be worth bringing back, only time will tell.
I swear I'm trying my best

--Expect me to be V/LA from 10am-7pm PST every Mon, Wed, Thurs, Sat, Sun due to work--
User avatar
MattP
MattP
Dr. Feelgood
User avatar
User avatar
MattP
Dr. Feelgood
Dr. Feelgood
Posts: 13356
Joined: August 22, 2011
Location: on honeymoon at red lobster with chevre

Post Post #829 (ISO) » Sat Feb 13, 2016 12:43 pm

Post by MattP »

My concern though is this - suppose
this year
we have someone who has exceptionally stood out as a community contributor / professor mafia and people make a point of that. Their work won't be acknowledged because the award can't be reinstated this year. Then the award is added back beginning in 2017 because of that individual's work for the year of 2016, and that year we don't have any bodies of work to acknowledge with the award because worthy nominees are sparse.

It's like, many years the Pulitzer prize for drama isn't awarded but they don't just cut the award because of it

Best fakeclaim is stupid, that's a good reason it shouldn't be around, but I definitely don't think that stands for comm contrib or prof mafia
SlappyKrust
User avatar
MattP
MattP
Dr. Feelgood
User avatar
User avatar
MattP
Dr. Feelgood
Dr. Feelgood
Posts: 13356
Joined: August 22, 2011
Location: on honeymoon at red lobster with chevre

Post Post #830 (ISO) » Sat Feb 13, 2016 12:48 pm

Post by MattP »

I mean I just feel like the major issue being raised with comm contrib and prof mafia is that they often don't get awarded I just don't see how that's a reason it shouldn't exist or what benefit that offers, it's so sparsely nominated that it adds like no work and all removing them does is prevent someone who truly deserves it some year from having a chance of getting it until them deserving it "sets an example" for why the award should come back. Like the way this feedback system works is basically someone needs to not get recognized for their work in order for the award to get reinstated, which just seems not productive
SlappyKrust
User avatar
MattP
MattP
Dr. Feelgood
User avatar
User avatar
MattP
Dr. Feelgood
Dr. Feelgood
Posts: 13356
Joined: August 22, 2011
Location: on honeymoon at red lobster with chevre

Post Post #831 (ISO) » Sat Feb 13, 2016 12:49 pm

Post by MattP »

The award won't come back until someone basically clearly deserves it and doesn't get it, that seems to be the feedback system to me
SlappyKrust
hiplop
hiplop
Jury Darling
hiplop
Jury Darling
Jury Darling
Posts: 12498
Joined: March 23, 2011
Location: full of self
Contact:

Post Post #832 (ISO) » Sat Feb 20, 2016 9:21 pm

Post by hiplop »

Only thing I think should be changed is for Don Corleone, take away the "in rare cases" for the group version of the award?
third best scummer of all time
User avatar
IceGuy
IceGuy
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
IceGuy
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 3390
Joined: January 29, 2011

Post Post #833 (ISO) » Fri Feb 26, 2016 8:41 am

Post by IceGuy »

Let me advance a radical idea: How about simply abolishing the fixed award categories?

Instead of nominating for categories, you could do nominations by type, such as "entire oeuvre" (a user is nominated for everything they did in the year - modding, playing, discussion), "action" (a player is nominated for a specific action), "game" (a mod is nominated for the design or modding of their game) or "team" (a team is nominated for their play in a game).

Every nomination has to come with a justification, a few sentences, possibly with links, that explain why that user(s) deserve(s) a Scummie.

At the end of the year, the Scummies judges debate which awards to give out to whom, and simply make up the awards as they go along (but, of course, reusing awards if they fit again). This is obviously going to be a bit more work than it currently is, but it should be mitigated by the requirement to explain nominations.

I would expect some awards to appear every year (such as Don Corleone), some to appear every two or three years (Third Party or Professor Mafia) and some to appear once for something that clearly deserves an award, but only the first time it was done, or something that only made sense in a very specific situation.

Remember the Scummies are supposed to be fun. They serve to reward actions that bring enjoyment to other users, and I think flexibility is the way to go.
zakk
zakk
Jack of All Trades
zakk
Jack of All Trades
Jack of All Trades
Posts: 6235
Joined: September 1, 2013

Post Post #834 (ISO) » Wed Mar 16, 2016 9:01 pm

Post by zakk »

I like the changes made in January. Seems solid. Judging was a pain for some of those categories.

I also feel like the new Don Corleone will reward riskier scum play (i.e. more exciting scum play).
permanently retired

see here for more info
User avatar
Katsuki
Katsuki
Cupcake
User avatar
User avatar
Katsuki
Cupcake
Cupcake
Posts: 14872
Joined: April 26, 2010
Location: In your head~

Post Post #835 (ISO) » Tue Apr 05, 2016 1:34 pm

Post by Katsuki »

In post 778, Nachomamma8 wrote:We're awarding Don Corelone for a single game performance even though one of the most important qualities of a good scum player is also consistency; you're not a good scum player if you only win one game because people can't read you. You're a good scum player if you constantly stay ahead of the curve and are able to make people townread you for different reasons after you've already fooled them one way or another.


SO MUCH THIS!!! I can not agree with this more! A single scum game or great scum move does not a make a great scum player.

While I disagree wholeheartedly, I can somewhat understand the argument for removing BEST TOWN PERFORMANCE. However, I do NOT get why BEST SCUM TEAM is being removed, when this award tends to be well deserved as great scum team play requires cohesion, strategy, and execution. In addition, everyone tends to focus on the scum players who are able to make it to end-game, but often times not enough credit is given to the scum player BEING bussed, as there is a right and wrong way of being bussed (for an example of this, please read TM: AGGRESSIVE MIND GAMES, where Fugi played exceptional in his role (but got very little post-game credit for it) while being powerbussed by both his scumbuddies, especially Fate, and not only avoided a lynch, but also led to the vengeful shooting another town, AND clearing his scumbuddies in the process due to the interactions while BEING bussed).

I highly disagree with Don Corleone being transformed into a single game award as oppose to body of work. I would point to my 2013 Don nomination as an example, where I played exceptionally and contributed heavily to all my scum wins (4-5 games I forget the exact number). Granted I lost out to Muffin over his performance in a single game (not to take away from his scumplay as he is an exceptional scum player), and won my Don due to my play in a single game too, but like Paragon, it should be awarded for a body of work as oppose to a single game, as that is the TRUE mark of either a STRONG TOWN OR SCUM PLAYER.

I mean, I can have my towngames where I have 100% accuracy or carry the entire town, but am I widely recognized as a strong town player? (answer is no :P) Same principal for DON CORLEONE IMO.
Fluffy fluffy~~~ |
"READING KATSUKI IS LIKE SOME SORT OF POSTMODERN ARTFORM"
- GreyICE
Katsuki is by far more absurdly beautiful than Fate. (hai parama)
Katsuki's Madness coming to you shortly: Nov, 2011!

C
u
p
c
a
k
e
M
a
f
i
a
I
I
coming to you summer 2011! ~ Pre-ins: 11/13
User avatar
xRECKONERx
xRECKONERx
GD is my Best Man
User avatar
User avatar
xRECKONERx
GD is my Best Man
GD is my Best Man
Posts: 26087
Joined: March 15, 2009

Post Post #836 (ISO) » Tue Apr 05, 2016 4:14 pm

Post by xRECKONERx »

#1) Best scum team isn't being removed. It's just that Don Corleone is no longer just an individual award.

#2) The idea behind Don Corleone not being Body of Work is sort of a "fool me once" conundrum. If someone gets away with a flawless scum game once, then by all accounts, they shouldn't get away with it again. If someone is consistently killed as town Night 1 due to their prowess as a town player, that's something that can at least partially be quantified. If someone is consistently lynched Day 1 because they're good at playing scum and nobody can trust them... well, that really shouldn't reflect poorly, should it? Great scum play should include some moonshots and "one-in-a-million" gambits. We feel that, unlike town play, scum play necessitates some very unique manuevering which cannot be judged well over the course of a body of work.

#3) The easiest way to delineate between why scum and town have to be treated separately is this: townplay allows for a sort of consistent algorithm or method to discerning scum play. If you get 100 people together and go, "pick scum out in this game", no matter how many people are wrong, at least one is going to be right (statistically). Town play has a lot of guessing involved, and though it's educated guessing, it's still guessing, in the end. EVERY GAME that is played, someone called scum correctly, at some point. It's a very rare outlier for there to be no scum called correctly. Now, with scum play, there's no "algorithm" or "method" -- because the SECOND a scum technique is used for a win, it becomes more dangerous to pull off again. So we felt that scum should be rewarded for pulling off hail mary, shot-in-the-dark plays -- and those can really only reliably occur once in a while, certainly not more than a couple times per year. People felt hamstringed by the "body of work" qualifier to nominate for scum games.

I will say this: we are working, backstage, on actual criteria/rubric sheets for each award in order to make our exact qualifications feel more...robust. I totally understand that right now, it can feel very one-sided. We don't want that. We want to provide the least subjective criteria possible so people fully understand what goes into each award. I feel like, once those rubricks are made available, the conversations here will mostly center around "How can we improve this rubric?" rather than "Why don't we have an award for XXXXXX?". Because I feel like, in the end, we have most of our bases covered.
green shirt thursdays
User avatar
Katsuki
Katsuki
Cupcake
User avatar
User avatar
Katsuki
Cupcake
Cupcake
Posts: 14872
Joined: April 26, 2010
Location: In your head~

Post Post #837 (ISO) » Tue Apr 05, 2016 5:14 pm

Post by Katsuki »

2)
But that's the beauty of what separates exceptional scum players from ordinary ones - the ability to get away with highway robbery again and again. I disagree that the unique maneuvering required for great scum play can not be judged well over the course of a body of work. Players still currently active with strong scumgames and examples of the aforementioned include Nacho and muffinman.

3)
I can see the thought process behind changing Don Corleone, but to me it just seems more so rewarding for flashy plays as oppose to efficiency+consistancy. If we were to compare it to sports (lets say basketball), it'd be akin to whether we're aiming to recognize the player who always puts up flashy highlight reels and averages 20ppg, or the player who is not as flashy but puts up 30pts/10A/10R per game. Anyone can make flashy one-time plays, but part of great scum play is having moves you can pull off reliably and on a consistent basis (such as the art of fakeclaiming).

As for the last point, I would imagine that much like writing, mafia is an incredibly difficult subject to judge by using a rubric, as no two games are the same. By no means do I envy the job the Scummies-reviewers are tasked with, but for things like mafia, they were always going to be more subjective than objective, and I would caution against over-objectifying things.

Do you think there are issues with the current methods of judging? If so, any examples of what?
Fluffy fluffy~~~ |
"READING KATSUKI IS LIKE SOME SORT OF POSTMODERN ARTFORM"
- GreyICE
Katsuki is by far more absurdly beautiful than Fate. (hai parama)
Katsuki's Madness coming to you shortly: Nov, 2011!

C
u
p
c
a
k
e
M
a
f
i
a
I
I
coming to you summer 2011! ~ Pre-ins: 11/13
User avatar
xRECKONERx
xRECKONERx
GD is my Best Man
User avatar
User avatar
xRECKONERx
GD is my Best Man
GD is my Best Man
Posts: 26087
Joined: March 15, 2009

Post Post #838 (ISO) » Wed Apr 06, 2016 3:15 am

Post by xRECKONERx »

There's a ton wrong with judging, currently. What people consider to be good play/valuable play as scum/town is really up to the judge itself, and we'd much rather set forth a list of qualities/criteria that we specifically like. Here's what we've been working on for Don Corleone:

Don Corleone

15–20 marks
  • Nominee's faction achieved their win condition despite facing highly competent opponents
  • Nominee received little to no sustained suspicion throughout the game
  • Nominee's success was impressively independent of the use of power roles
  • The nominee's entire faction survived until late in the game
  • The nominee's entire faction demonstrated an impressive level of teamwork and no replacements had to be made

10–15
  • Nominee's faction achieved their win condition against capable opponents
  • Nominee received sustained suspicion from only a small number of players throughout the game
  • Nominee's success did not rely upon usage of power roles beyond what would have been expected from the setup
  • The majority of the nominee's faction survived until late in the game
  • The nominee's faction demonstrated an impressive level of teamwork or only a small number of replacements had to be made


5–10
  • Nominee's faction were unlucky not to achieve their win condition, or achieved it only against poor opponents
  • Nominee received sustained suspicion from about half the players throughout the game
  • Nominee was aided in their win by the use of power roles, but not more than capable day play
  • More than one member of the nominee's faction survived until late in the game
  • The nominee's faction demonstrated an above-average level of teamwork but several replacements may have had to be made

0–5
  • Nominee's faction did not come particularly close to achieving their win condition
  • Nominee received sustained suspicion from a majority of players throughout the game
  • The actions of power roles were absolutely crucial to the nominee's win, more than capable day play
  • Only one member of the nominee's faction survived for any significant portion of the game
  • Teamwork amongst the nominee's faction was mediocre, or disrupted by a high quantity of replacements


Obviously, these aren't final, and are very much still a work in progress.
green shirt thursdays
User avatar
Davsto
Davsto
He/Him
Farce of Habit
User avatar
User avatar
Davsto
He/Him
Farce of Habit
Farce of Habit
Posts: 5279
Joined: June 29, 2015
Pronoun: He/Him

Post Post #839 (ISO) » Wed Apr 06, 2016 3:36 am

Post by Davsto »

In post 838, xRECKONERx wrote:Only one member of the nominee's faction survived for any significant portion of the game

I know teamwork is an important part etc

But I feel that, when rewarding a single player, if say all of their scum teammates die within the first few days and then they make it through a load of days singlehandedly, there should be some bonus points for that, because that can be really tough, and I don't see it being fully fair to reward a single player in part on the strength of their teammates.
hiplop
hiplop
Jury Darling
hiplop
Jury Darling
Jury Darling
Posts: 12498
Joined: March 23, 2011
Location: full of self
Contact:

Post Post #840 (ISO) » Wed Apr 06, 2016 7:06 pm

Post by hiplop »

Yeah, I think the member amount part makes no sense. It makes it seem that there is a definitive "good" way to play scum, and means that bussing is inherently bad. I don't think that is true nor something the scummies should support.

I
also
think publically sharing the rubric is a mistake
third best scummer of all time
User avatar
Psyche
Psyche
he/they
Survivor
User avatar
User avatar
Psyche
he/they
Survivor
Survivor
Posts: 10058
Joined: April 28, 2011
Pronoun: he/they

Post Post #841 (ISO) » Wed Apr 06, 2016 7:28 pm

Post by Psyche »

haha
yeah
youtube playlist extracter | donbot | game scraper | vca | setupsim | strategist | llm
User avatar
Nexus
Nexus
He
miss
User avatar
User avatar
Nexus
He
miss
miss
Posts: 6650
Joined: July 1, 2010
Pronoun: He
Location: UK Hun

Post Post #842 (ISO) » Wed Apr 06, 2016 8:21 pm

Post by Nexus »

I have a question:

Is there a way that the best game scummies banners can link to the game in question via clicking on the picture, or is that too much hassle at the backend?
Trans rights are human rights.
User avatar
Davsto
Davsto
He/Him
Farce of Habit
User avatar
User avatar
Davsto
He/Him
Farce of Habit
Farce of Habit
Posts: 5279
Joined: June 29, 2015
Pronoun: He/Him

Post Post #843 (ISO) » Wed Apr 06, 2016 9:03 pm

Post by Davsto »

In fact, I'll be honest, I disagree with the majority of these.

In post 838, xRECKONERx wrote:Nominee's faction achieved their win condition despite facing highly competent opponents
I'm not sure how fair it is to judge someone's play as scum based on the town they faced up against, because that's just dumb luck. If someone plays amazingly but they happen to only be against okay players, is it really fair to dock points?
Nominee received little to no sustained suspicion throughout the game
While I agree that "not getting any suspicion" is good for scum, "having lots of suspicion but still avoiding being lynched" is something I'd consider to be something worth rewarding as it requires a different, strong amount of skill.
Nominee's success was impressively independent of the use of power roles
This almost feels like punishing someone for using their power role greatly. Sure, day play is skilful, but the way it's worded like this does not sound good. Skilled use of power roles is a very important part of the game, and a rule like this sounds like it will basically instantly reduce the chances of you winning an award if the game you played in was role madness. If you mean "they would have been lynched but someone got an incorrect innocent result on them because godfather", fine. If you mean "the use of power roles was very good and played a big part in their victory as well as their very good day play", I strongly disagree with that being considered worse in any way.
The nominee's entire faction survived until late in the game
See above.
The nominee's entire faction demonstrated an impressive level of teamwork
Mostly no objections here, although I feel this gives a slight disadvantage of winning if the game only had nighttalk and not daytalk, a factor which vastly affects teamwork.
and no replacements had to be made
... okay this is just ridiculous. Again, I don't feel a single nominee should be judged based on their teammates, but in terms of replacing out? Are you kidding me? Like, wow. You may end up punishing a player because one of their teammates is a lurked or a player who bends a rule too far and gets forced replaced - a whole number of factors contribute to replacements, and I guarantee they are out of a team member's control!
User avatar
Davsto
Davsto
He/Him
Farce of Habit
User avatar
User avatar
Davsto
He/Him
Farce of Habit
Farce of Habit
Posts: 5279
Joined: June 29, 2015
Pronoun: He/Him

Post Post #844 (ISO) » Wed Apr 06, 2016 9:05 pm

Post by Davsto »

I hate to be such a critic, but you seem to be vastly rewarding some aspects of scum play over others.
User avatar
Untrod Tripod
Untrod Tripod
Fat and Sassy
User avatar
User avatar
Untrod Tripod
Fat and Sassy
Fat and Sassy
Posts: 11652
Joined: September 1, 2003

Post Post #845 (ISO) » Thu Apr 07, 2016 7:01 am

Post by Untrod Tripod »

In post 837, Katsuki wrote:Do you think there are issues with the current methods of judging? If so, any examples of what?

Yeah. There's basically no consistent criteria for awards between judges and to a large extent it seems from my perspective that the judges are forced to skim through games because there's such a huge ratio of noise to signal and it's overwhelming. I say that as Grand Pooh Bah and as a former judge.

we're working on judging rubrics to make sure games are judged more fairly, more thoroughly, and more consistently.
User avatar
Psyche
Psyche
he/they
Survivor
User avatar
User avatar
Psyche
he/they
Survivor
Survivor
Posts: 10058
Joined: April 28, 2011
Pronoun: he/they

Post Post #846 (ISO) » Thu Apr 07, 2016 9:59 am

Post by Psyche »

i have to say though
im really impressed by the degree of formalization you've done with that set of standards
i think you should consider making threads seeking input about them so that their thoughts can inform your standards and so that those standards can be more identical to the community's
however i do still think you should keep your ultimate standards for judging under wraps, since there's no one everyone will be satisfied with whatever standards you settle on
youtube playlist extracter | donbot | game scraper | vca | setupsim | strategist | llm
zakk
zakk
Jack of All Trades
zakk
Jack of All Trades
Jack of All Trades
Posts: 6235
Joined: September 1, 2013

Post Post #847 (ISO) » Sat Apr 09, 2016 7:35 am

Post by zakk »

that sample rubric is pretty bollocks if you actually think about it

davsto brings up some great, great points
permanently retired

see here for more info
zakk
zakk
Jack of All Trades
zakk
Jack of All Trades
Jack of All Trades
Posts: 6235
Joined: September 1, 2013

Post Post #848 (ISO) » Sat Apr 09, 2016 7:41 am

Post by zakk »

i say the site should get together a committee of all the people who have won an award in the past, and let them decide how they want to judge it

winning the award at any point would grant you access to the committee, and you could recuse yourself if you wanted to, or didn't have time, but this would mean the scummies could be judged by people who were intimately familiar with what it took to win, and the pool of committee members would grow over time

i.e. only past paragons would judge paragons
only don corleones would judge don corleone

i really can't see a downside of that, other than "i don't play any more so i'm not really invested in the site" which of course will always happen, but you can still have them on the "committee" to pick the judges for that category, from amongst themselves, and really, they will get to shape the future of the award, and they can be as elitist as they want, because their pool will grow and diversify every year

it'd be surprisingly similar to how the Oscars (or politics in general) work... i think it's definitely worth a go.

and then if people have a complaint about who got chosen as the winner, they could just put their opinion in their pipe and smoke it, because five or ten most cunning manipulators disagree with you, bro

my 2 cents at least
permanently retired

see here for more info
hiplop
hiplop
Jury Darling
hiplop
Jury Darling
Jury Darling
Posts: 12498
Joined: March 23, 2011
Location: full of self
Contact:

Post Post #849 (ISO) » Sun Apr 10, 2016 1:54 pm

Post by hiplop »

thered be like 3 people qualified to judge paragon and I doubt they would want to do it
third best scummer of all time
Post Reply

Return to “Mafia Discussion”