Micro 794: Miss List II (Game Over)

[CultOfAthena]

No votes, you two?

Vote: Chickadee

[CultOfAthena]

I’ll only be phone posting til evening when I have computer access so don’t expect walls til then.

Do you typically wall post within the first page or two of the game?

[CultOfAthena]

{BuJaber}
{Creature, Mathdino, Not_Mafia, implosion, HeathCliFF3}
{MagnaofIllusion, Chickadee}

[CultOfAthena]

Not liking BuJabr, for defending NM out of the gate.

What's scummy about Bu's line of questioning, or defending NM in general?

[CultOfAthena]

There really isn't a lot of pressure on NM. I don't really see a need for defense at the moment.

I mean, there was someone presumably seriously calling for his lynch. Bu's question makes perfect sense – a scumread on Magna along with an associative read on NM to me indicates a Magna lynch first, but math called for a policy lynch on NM to figure out Magna.

Explain how "I don't see a need for this" leads to "this is scummy"? Also, thoughts on the NM lynch itself?

Why did you vote me out of the gate, and then also list me as scummiest in your read list?

The vote was random. The read was because of 22.

[CultOfAthena]

{BuJaber}
{Creature, Mathdino, Not_Mafia, implosion, HeathCliFF3}
{MagnaofIllusion}
{Chickadee}

[CultOfAthena]

i mean there's a chance that magna is just really fucking weird town, but if he is, i would hope he sacrifices tonight if N_M flips scum

the scumread is mostly from the weird-ass association to N_M

Edit: DID SOMEONE SAY POLICY

Why would NM not be the default one to be sacrificed? Lynching someone readable and having someone unreadable sacrifice makes far more sense to me.

[CultOfAthena]

What? I don't follow.

[CultOfAthena]

mislynching not_mafia is much less risky than mislynching magna i think

Risky in what sense?

[CultOfAthena]

So Cult was this a purely empty? Because you’ve done nothing to follow up with either response (other than generically calling me scummy). Did you have any actual intent behind the question? I get that it is early game but still I’d figure you would have something to say.

Nothing about it was "purely empty", I just don't find it particularly meaningful to follow up on. My intent was to highlight two players not voting. I think town should always be voting in RVS but I understand that many times they don't.

What kind of followup did you expect?

[CultOfAthena]

{BuJaber, implosion}
{Creature, Not_Mafia, HeathCliFF3}
{MagnaofIllusion, Mathdino}
{Chickadee}

[CultOfAthena]

cult your reads list is basically upside down from mine right now

please explain this

You're scum?

[CultOfAthena]

Why do you townread Chickadee? You might be reading the list wrong anyways. Second line is null.

[CultOfAthena]

cult your reads list is basically upside down from mine right now

please explain this

Also, does this imply you're now townreading Magna?

[CultOfAthena]

Scum would be aware of that i think

So yes, regrettably magna is town

Aware of what?

[CultOfAthena]

I'm very curious Cult how you are Townreading Buj .. his ISO is so dark Null the only way it could be more Null is if he failed to post like Heath.

I liked his questions – what he was saying made sense where math's motivations seemed ulterior. They're snap reads – from my perspective the people I'm playing with are evenly divided between Town/Scum. I don't need to wait for the few scum to reveal themselves like in a normal game, judgments can be made pretty fast. I'm actually kind of loving this setup so far because of that.

Aware that I am telling him
You're bussing Not_Mafia, let's lynch Not_Mafia to check
And he responds with
NO YOU'RE BUSSING NOT_MAFIA, LET'S KILL MATHDINO ON N_M SCUMFLIP

I fail to see where the "townread" part of what you're saying comes in.

[CultOfAthena]

I can get on board with this scumteam
VOTE: Heath

What is this?

[CultOfAthena]

I liked his questions – what he was saying made sense where math's motivations seemed ulterior. They're snap reads – from my perspective the people I'm playing with are evenly divided between Town/Scum. I don't need to wait for the few scum to reveal themselves like in a normal game, judgments can be made pretty fast. I'm actually kind of loving this setup so far because of that.

Hmmm ... see I think most of his questions were very surface level (given Math's 'associative read' was pure junk why focus solely on that?) and didn't provide much in the way of actually probing anything.

Do you have experience with Math that lead you to your conclusion his motivations were 'ulterior'?

I'd hardly call what he said "surface level" but I'm not going to spend a huge amount of time hard defending him. Why not focus on something that's pure junk? Isn't a bad push scum-indicative?

You could say that I have experience with Math, but I don't think you need it to agree with me. Does the whole NM diatribe seem entirely genuine to you?

What this is is me being good with a Heath/Creature scumteam idea.

Yeah – why? What happened to you wanting to lynch NM and voting with him now? Where did Heath even come into this?

[CultOfAthena]

i'm townreading N_M now?

Since when?

You'll have to excuse me if I don't really buy any of what you're saying there.

Besides, if you've got that half of the game PoE'd, why Heath over, say, Chickadee or Creature?

The issue I have from it is that I'm not seeing Buj go down a line of thought that says “Your associative is junk” as much as “Sure your associative may work but let’s lynch MoI first instead”. Granted I am a little biased myself but that was what I read from it.

And I think it goes without saying I didn’t find the “NotMafia” scum angle forced which is why I said early it looked like a bad bus attempt.

I feel like we're disagreeing in wording but agreeing in principle here. Bad bus attempts are also forced, no?

{BuJaber, implosion}
{Not_Mafia, HeathCliFF3}
{MagnaofIllusion, Creature}
{Chickadee, Mathdino}

[CultOfAthena]

There's a wagon on Heath because you made it a wagon. The Chickadee wagon had the exact same number of votes before you voted (one).

We're not lynching Creature right now, and probably won't be anytime soon. We're keeping him around – he either shows he's town or he's our safety shot if we lynch town.

[CultOfAthena]

...

[CultOfAthena]

because the last time people scumread you over your weirdly ingenuine sounding tone, you were quicklynched on page 4

i'm very careful with players i've seen easily D1 mislynched before

Are you referring to Micro 769?

your reasons for asking me to sacrifice were unclear
i would sacrifice if a sufficient number of players required me to
as in, i wouldn't sacrifice if i just thought the entire scumteam and one townie wanted me to, but i would if it seemed like the entire town was gonna lynch me tomorrow

I'm assuming the way you'd differentiate between these two situations would be based on your reads on the players asking you to sacrifice?

[CultOfAthena]

I figured this was going to be your response. I mainly asked because Magna seemed curious why I wasn't questioning your "defense" of me.

... You only asked because someone else was suspicious of you not asking?

I ignored it becauseit was without explanation, and I'm not really feeling pressured. The most anyone has said about me is that they need more content from my slot to be able to read it.

If it wasn't clear, I think you are obvious scum.

[CultOfAthena]

Feeling better about MoI and implosion, going to put Bu back into null.

{implosion}
{BuJaber, Not_Mafia, PantherPunt, MagnaofIllusion}
{Chickadee, Mathdino, Creature}

[CultOfAthena]

1. yes, but i could also refer to anything upick, where my town persona was D1 scumreading chickadee (along with a few other players IIRC)

This feels like you're pre-empting the point I was going to make about that game not really being a good example of what you're talking about – like you

already

know that what you said has holes in it.

[CultOfAthena]

@Magna, I'm thinking you might be town. Where are you at in terms of reads outside of Mathdino?

[CultOfAthena]

Cult you could probably look at most of my games and see that I'm lynchbait. Seriously just take your pick.

Okay, what's your point?

[CultOfAthena]

Chickadee, I would appreciate if you would respond to 132 and give a read on me and one other player of your choosing.

[CultOfAthena]

I think cult and Chickadee are scum together...

I'm assuming that that read is based mostly off of association, no? In that case,

#helpscumbus

---

Cultofathena- I find this a bit dissonant. Presumably, you don’t like or at least did not have an expectation to see a lack of votes by manga and implosion. Yet you vote chickadee, which must of course be random, right?

Then you ask magna if he typically wall posts (disagree with the characterization btw) first page which again leads me to believe you’re not a fan of it. If that’s not the case, why did you ask?

And if your expectations weren’t met / you disliked two things about magnas opener, why vote chickadee and not magna?

Tyia for your answers.

Also, dino, why did you like cult ooc? (I have minor worry I need to reacclimate to MS culture and I’m reading the game upside down)

Not voting isn't a scumtell. I asked him if he typically wallposts in the first two pages because he said to not expect any until the evening, which made me wonder if he actually expected the game to get to the point where there would be things to wallpost about within that timeframe, or he was just coming up with something to say in his opener. You could call that something worth voting him over, but I figured I'd wait for his answer and use my vote to start pressure elsewhere.

What do you mean when you say "ooc" there?

[CultOfAthena]

@Panther – Did you read any of the game before replacing in?

On an unrelated note, I've been thinking about it, and I think the best play is to always have two people who we think are either the scummiest or who we think are scum together be the ones to sacrifice. If they're both scum, neither will be able to sacrifice and we'll essentially have two guilties, and in the other situations (one town and one scum or two town), I don't think we're any worse off than if just one person was set to sacrifice.

[CultOfAthena]

Math and Bujaber's conversation at the top of page 7 seems like S/S, and that's independent of my read on Bujaber.

Also, just noticed this:

Also in this setup you could legit just lynch me in Lylo and have me vengeshoot

Or agree to have me killed if I pick wrong

Lylo is weird in this setup

Math, explain what you're saying with the bolded?

[CultOfAthena]

This again relies on the idea that enough people to comprise the majority of the town want this.

Yes, it does. I don't think that changes anything. I think it's even better, actually, as we see how people deal with the proposal.

Also consider that scum's 1-shot ability to stop the sacrifice was specifically put in place to deal with this breaking strategy. I agree with it roughly, but we still need contingency plans afterward.

Having two people sacrifice specifically circumvents that ability. If two players sacrifice and neither dies, simply lynch within one of those two players and we are guaranteed to lynch or shoot scum.

[CultOfAthena]

@Magna

@Magna, I'm thinking you might be town. Where are you at in terms of reads outside of Mathdino?

@Math

Also, just noticed this:

Also in this setup you could legit just lynch me in Lylo and have me vengeshoot

Or agree to have me killed if I pick wrong

Lylo is weird in this setup

Math, explain what you're saying with the bolded?

[CultOfAthena]

In fact if she is the “Walking Mislynch” both she and Math have indicated I’d have expected scum to have really power bussed her for Town cred. Maybe the scum team is nervous about bussing for some reason (like, perhaps the entire team is generally weak players). It’s too early to tell but I’m this early I’m going with my gut.

I think this is a dangerous line of thinking to go down. Both Math and Chickadee herself have framed Chickadee as being lynchbait in response to my thinking she's scum, but I think a question that Chickadee has let go unanswered is a pretty important response to that idea:

Cult you could probably look at most of my games and see that I'm lynchbait. Seriously just take your pick.

Okay, what's your point?

[CultOfAthena]

I realise now that the specific thing Bujaber is worried about is me picking wrong in LyLo, not me being the scum in LyLo. In Gamma's game (just finished) he was going on about how I should be lynched if I were alive by LyLo (all lies lol), and I agreed to be killed by then if I hadn't fucked up the scumteam already.

But obviously being agreed to be killed on the condition that I pick wrong in LyLo only solves the "paranoia of Math-scum" issue, not the "Math choosing wrong" issue.

So I mixed things up cuz #phoneposting.

Is having yourself get shot in lylo if you choose wrong something you're actually agreeing with or think is a good idea?

What percent sure are you that Chickadee is scum? With 50% being totally random from your POV.

I don't frame things like that. Any answer would be completely arbitrary.

[CultOfAthena]

Well, it's pretty close to what I'm thinking. Not sure if that's a good thing or a bad thing yet.

[CultOfAthena]

C. We use confscum Creature as a way to communicate with the dead. More on this in a bit.

Nope, sorry. Already thought about this and don't think the mod appreciates it.

[CultOfAthena]

By the way, I don't see how any of that relates to you agreeing to what would be a game losing play if you were town?

[CultOfAthena]

Nevermind on what I said then, looks like we were thinking of different things.

[CultOfAthena]

That example would be a lot easier to parse if you didn't use "one of bu/implosion".

That vote is a scumclaim, by the way.

[CultOfAthena]

It's not game losing if I pick right. It just agrees to what would be a 50/50 play. Like, I understand the concept of "Mathdino is scum when he's aggressively wrong". The solution is for me to not be aggressively wrong.

Have you ever agreed to "lynch him and then lynch me if I'm wrong" before?


Also, quoting this again for people's consideration. I still believe it's best to agree beforehand that two people should sacrifice.

On an unrelated note, I've been thinking about it, and I think the best play is to always have two people who we think are either the scummiest or who we think are scum together be the ones to sacrifice. If they're both scum, neither will be able to sacrifice and we'll essentially have two guilties, and in the other situations (one town and one scum or two town), I don't think we're any worse off than if just one person was set to sacrifice.

[CultOfAthena]

That example would be a lot easier to parse if you didn't use "one of bu/implosion".

That vote is a scumclaim, by the way

.

in what universe do you actually believe this wtf

I'm obvious town.

[CultOfAthena]

Christ am I gonna have to play dumb or scum with the entire town
I am actually ashamed that the only townread I have that has good reads is Not_Mafia

Thor is good at scumhunting and has better than random reads
This is not thor

Can you plainly and clearly go into those reads that you have? I can understand where you'd be coming from on MoI being town, but the rest not so much. Through some vague and mysterious process you arrived at NM being town and seem unwaveringly confident in that. I can't understand that, and it seems as if you expect me to, and I'm not sure why.

[CultOfAthena]

It might give me some indication that there's reason behind your reads that isn't strategic.

[CultOfAthena]

All I am doing is asking you to explain your read on Not Mafia.

[CultOfAthena]

[CultOfAthena]

We can sort of do the force-x-to-sacrifice thing with any size of set of people, and detect when scum use their forced no-sacrifice. It's really odd.

I'm fairly certain that doing it with 3 or more people leaves us without any useful information as opposed to doing it with 2 people.

[CultOfAthena]

Unvote