Micro 807: Lynchpin 8p (Game Over)

[Gosrir Elmer Odels]

Hey!

I've been thinking about how we could get this game going. We could start by discussing whom each player would've personally chosen to be the lynchpin if they were scum. I hope RC decides to participate too.

My choice would've been Mohab500. The GIF avatar gives me a knee-jerk reaction to lynch him, & I'm sure many of you have the same feeling. However, we obviously want to be somewhat deliberate with lynching, so we all have to contain this emotion. My thinking process is that since at least some (probably most) players will have already convinced themselves not to lynch him just yet, they're also less likely to lynch him later on.

FYI, I'm in CEST right now, & probably will be for the entirety of the game.

VOTE: ceejayvinoya

[Gosrir Elmer Odels]

insufficient participation ie lurking.

Okay, it took me some time to process this. Can you tell us how long you expect to lurk in terms of real time?

if NSG is scum, there is an even higher chance I am the lynchpin, but obviously I am conftown every single game so she might just decide not to pick me as a lynchpin because I am unmislynchable lol

If she's scum & you're unmislynchable, surely she'd want to choose you to be the lynchpin.

On a more general note, about whom to choose to be the lynchpin: I'm unfamiliar with the site-meta. Are you telling me that there's a positive correlation between competence & not being lynched? With such a short player list I'd expect it to be quite easy for village idiots to survive, as long as they're not outright harmful...

[Gosrir Elmer Odels]

I'm lurking through D1.

So this is a playstyle decision, not an IRL necessity. Surely you know how

you

"knowing" another player is town or scum is worth next to nothing. There needs to a case presented. Many of the players (myself included) don't know each other very well. That means we won't understand each other with just half-sentences & subtle hints. Even if you are, you're not trusted to be a (relative) expert on NSG & Creature. I don't want to push this much more, as you haven't shown any side of lurking aside from announcing your intent to lurk, (which baffles me, but fine.)

On a more general note, about whom to choose to be the lynchpin: I'm unfamiliar with the site-meta. Are you telling me that there's a positive correlation between competence & not being lynched? With such a short player list I'd expect it to be quite easy for village idiots to survive, as long as they're not outright harmful...

I mean, I think that's what people here are saying: Scum obviously doesn't play very risky or very scummy, but they probably don't want someone who's actually good at catching scum. So a Village Idiot would actually be a perfect lynchpin

Here's what you said:

I myself don't know who I would choose to be lynchpin as scum since I'm unfamiliar with all of you, but I do agree with RadiantCowbells that they'd probably want someone that they think is too incompetent to catch scum but competent enough that he doesn't get lynched

You also referenced RC (who said „[Creature is] not going to get lynched on his own”, which in content seems to me very similar), so that makes it the two of you.

The way I see it, I agree with your more recent comment, but not necessarily with the reasoning. We are looking for informed lynches, so the ideal lynchpin doesn't get involved with serious interactions, but manages to do so by a certain type of incompetence. That's what I'd be looking for if I knew the playerlist better (& if I were scum )

What do you think RC's lurk announcement?

[Gosrir Elmer Odels]

it must have some purpose

That's what I used to think about the world in general. No, all we know is that it

might

have some purpose.

Hi.
First off: we're not lynching townreads to try to hit the lynchpin. We're not lynching at all to try to hit the lynchpin.

Ditto. Absolutely not! It will be worth it to gauge reactions to different wagons that form, though, especially once we get true gamereads going against players. Obviously, scum would hate for the lynchpin to be lynched. That is the quickest way to their faction's elimination.

On principle, I agree, we should first & foremost be looking for scum. However, outright stating that we aren't looking for the lynchpin can deprive us of associative tells. You just have to keep in mind how unlikely it is to lynch the lynchpin on D1: assuming the lynchpin doesn't vote for themself, all the rest of the town needs to want to lynch them to reach a majority. You can lose one of those players to get a stable plurality.

Concerning lynchpin: I have no experience with any of these players, but I'm going to lock in Creature as my early guess. Rad dragon avatar + experience is already making me hesitant to lynch him.

This is interesting because eg. in Newbie games it is normal for newbies to tunnel their IC because of their experience.

Vote: Gosrir

. I want to know how many games of mafia experience you are hiding behind for the record book.

I used to play here for about a year, but it wasn't good for my mental health. I got toxic, so I left. We'll see of I'm mature enough now to be on this site. I haven't played mafia for years, but before that I had my share of games both online & face-to-face.

VOTE: UnrealSeal

I think the lynchpin is more likely to be someone who had been on the site for quite a while, unless all the scums are new, so it won't matter to them.

In terms on knowing other players, I'd say at least half the players here are relatively new: you, me, stungun & Seal. Mohab & Creature are borderline new, Mohab even stated that most of us have no real experience with him.

parles

I'm drunk or something

It's „parle.” Parler is regular.
Also, I've been drunk before, so I know it's not a good reason to post about being drunk.
VOTE: RC

[Gosrir Elmer Odels]

NSG hasn't posted yet, I wonder if she'll ever deign to play this game (she's been active elsewhere.) But then again, Creature has also done as much as nothing so far.

It's tempting to push for a policy lynch, especially because it's frustrating how little activity the more experienced players are showing (previously I called Creature borderline new, but I was wrong.)

Nevertheless, I'd rather steer the conversation towards RC because the kind of "idontknow-imdrunk" comment he made is indicative of scum imo. It's a blatant demonstration of his being comfortable with posting in the thread while he doesn't have complete self-control (because of the intoxication.) However, anyone with any experience with this knows that there's practically no risk in drunk posting. Stating your drunkenness can be a risk-free signalling that you're honest with other players, & you're not afraid to speak your own mind with limited filter, & thus this signalling ultimately disingenuous. Hence the vote.

[Gosrir Elmer Odels]

Why not just treat drunkenness as nai and then move along

What do you mean? As barber?
Seriously though, I find his behaviour, that post in particular, scummy. There's no reason to drop this unless there's something better.

Your vote is currently on US, right? Is there a particular reason for that?

Why do you think only newbies play like this?

I don't. I've never said that.

[Gosrir Elmer Odels]

Also that creature wagon is absolute tripe the 'narrative' was him having a read in mind and their continued play didn't fit his read of them.

Creatures a big boy, don't answer questions for him.
(... & added post 70 to the scummy folder...)

[Gosrir Elmer Odels]

Uh what narrative?

Tell him to unvote himself, he unvotes himself, I say I townread him

That's the narrative

Why lurk though?

[Gosrir Elmer Odels]

Nai means Non-Alignment indicative. It just says that the action is neither scummy nor towny.

I don't want to forget about this. Your saying it's NAI, I'm arguing that it isn't. Your also slightly misrepresenting the case: it's not about being drunk, it's about posting about being drunk for no reason.

[Gosrir Elmer Odels]

1) I absolutely would post about being drunk as both alignments, I've got a long history of drunkposting in games.

I don't know your meta. Any concrete examples?

2) I wasn't even drunk at the time, I was really tired and I couldn't put my french language skills together whatsoever and I was making fun of that

This one doesn't invalidate my argument. You're just admitting that you weren't drunk at the time, which confirms my statement: you claimed you were in a vulnerable position you weren't actually in.

I'm pretty sure that GEO/Unreal Seal is the scumteam because both are pretty ridiculously scummy but I need to PoE the rest of the scumspects so I need NSG and others to be useful.
(US is the one I"m confident on, GEO is just the most logical second aorn but we'll see.)

Two questions: why & since when?

[Gosrir Elmer Odels]

Uh what narrative?

Tell him to unvote himself, he unvotes himself, I say I townread him

That's the narrative

Why lurk though?

I wasn't lurking, I was watching some youtube video.

Nvm, I misunderstood the question.

you say 'vulnerable situation' but I towntell better when drunk than when I'm town as both alignments. You're also reading far too much into it, if I wanted to drunkpost for the towncred I'd actually get drunk for it. it's a really terrible read to have that I intentionally lied about being drunk for whatever miniscule advantage it would supposedly give me.

These two points are both non-answers. I aim to word my questions in a unambiguous, clear way. If you need clarification, feel free to ask. If you don't just answer the question(s), please.

(Sidenote: I feel I should mention that the two posts are considerably different in their nature.)

P-EDIT: Language! It's just a game, no need to be overly hurtful... Keep it fun.

[Gosrir Elmer Odels]

RC, do you remember my questions? Answer them, please.

@stungun: at the time of post 52 I was already voting RC. That's not a „bam!” & again, I think I've been pretty clear about this: my problem is not drunk posting, it's announcing the drunk posting. (& RC has already said that he wasn't actually drunk at the time.)

[Gosrir Elmer Odels]

ok so I think gosrir and unrealseal are town

No.
You haven't presented any content to your „reads.” The one on US has been the worst. It was first scum, then town, then scum again, now apparently it's town. Explain, now.

[Gosrir Elmer Odels]

@RC:

Thank you for explaining the general idea of changing reads, even though that's not what I've been talking about. I'm sure there are people for whom your answer would be useful, although they probably couldn't read it for their lack of knowing the alphabet.
You're currently scumreading US. Or townreading, I can never know, you can never know. What's the reasoning behind your current read on US? What's the reasoning behind your previous reads on US? When did you change your reads? (for the latter give me a list)

It's not my responsibility to research your meta when you use as defence.

---

I also want to put this exchange in context. You might think that RC & I are arguing, but we aren't. I have practically no doubt him being mafia. However, I need to address his „responses”, to make it clear how he hasn't answered any of the questions directed at him.

[Gosrir Elmer Odels]

Notice how RC's trying to make my request seem unreasonable, even though it isn't. We've been playing this game for about 2 days IRL, he should be able to give a rundown of the progression of his read on a particular player. Explaining the current state of his read should be even easier.

Anyway, there's no point in discussing RC with RC any further.

@NSG: Based on their posting so far, stungun might not post for another 16-17 hours. [Rambling speculation going nowhere cut.] Do you have any noteworthy impressions on any other player? For example, what do you think about RC?

@Mohab: I'd like to hear your thoughts on this game in general.

@CJ: Your naked vote is now officially acknowledged by me, I hope we can move forward now.

@Creature: I feel like I need to reiterate my question (/sigh): Why did you decide to lurk when one interaction didn't go the way you wanted?

[Gosrir Elmer Odels]

@all: Get onto the RC wagon. This is a good wagon, we're lynching scum. That's good. RC's at the point where he's appealing to emotion, the sorrier you feel about him, he the scummier you should consider him.

On the other hand, I don't like the CJ wagon. He's got a naked vote on me, sure. He should explain it, sure. I don't really care atm, that's a bridge we'll cross when we get there. Also, I'm pretty sure post 129 happened while RC was having a townread on me. It definitely happened after RC started changing his reads, & by that point his actual reads didn't really matter in this regard because they were hard to follow. (TBH, I'm not entirely sure what his official read on me is atm. I think he said I was town, but he wants me to be lynched on D2. Go figure.)

There are votes on US & SG. The former was a random vote at the time, I'd like to know if it still is. I get the motivation for the latter, i look at it in many respects the same way as at the vote on CJ.

[Gosrir Elmer Odels]

and now I believe stungun and unreal are one scumteam lol, well I believe RC is town and atleast 1 guy on his wagon is scum

But at the time it was only RC & me on the RC wagon...

Anyway, town sometimes how there's supposed to be players with secret identities, so they do stupid things, like yelling at their scumreads to be more town. US's already done it in this thread. I think even if SG had scumread RC, that's not a good scumtell (or a scumtell in general.)

@SG: Who's scum? (Also, I don't think this game is affected by the V/LA status.)

this game is too hard for me.

It's actually quite easy: First we lynch either you or stungun. If your town, then stungun's mafia and vice versa. Creature is confscum.

Can you walk me through this?

[Gosrir Elmer Odels]

A bit more detail about your read on Creature would be interesting actually.

[Gosrir Elmer Odels]

you've openly said that you're only looking for content from me for the purposes of spinning it as scummy so I'm not really interested in talking to you.

I don't think I've said such a thing. Which post of mine are you deliberately misinterpreting?

[Gosrir Elmer Odels]

Wow, I didn't expect you to be so blatant about it.

@all: See? He's scum. He's a scummy scum-scum. Let's lynch him.

Anyway, you were talking about lynching Creature, so you should be interested in presenting your thoughts about him. It's a public thread, after all. It's not like you'd be talking to

me

specifically.

[Gosrir Elmer Odels]

I dare you. Your replacing would be tactical, so that's a foolproof way of getting onto some blacklists.

(Seriously though, have the decency of not threatening with something you wouldn't do. Don't mix up your game goals with real life: you want to deceive the other players, that's fine, but there's still a notion of fairplay your should adhere to.)
(Also, I should clarify that replacing out is not a towntell.)

[Gosrir Elmer Odels]

The problem isn't that he's flip-flopping. It's that when I try to assume he's town, I know nothing about his reads. The little context we have for them are usually OMGUS, except for Creature. That last one could be interesting, but just like with every other case, he refuses to elaborate on it. &

ever since there's been a wagon on him

, he pretty much hasn't done anything, but this weird, miserable AtE variant. Why is it you who provides the meta the towncase on him, for example? I tell you what I think: if he had made the towncase on himself, he'd have also had to make a case against a scumread of his. But that's risky. This is what it looks like from where I'm seeing it.
Anyway, I'll read that ISO later today.

(Speaking of reads I know nothing about: what's up with your vote on me? It's like the 3rd time I'm asking you. An answer would be nice.)

[Gosrir Elmer Odels]

Hmm Idk why he's refusing to talk to you properly. Maybe because you're being so antagonistic and locked him as scum early? Lols

If you think I've been antagonising him, you haven't seen me antagonise others. But no, I've been civil. I really don't think my behaviour is questionable in the context of „playing nice with others.” Also, when I have a read I want to push, I'll push it. I didn't know that could traumatise anyone.
But you're giving in to his narrative too. He doesn't have to talk to me, this isn't a private thread. Giving content about his Creature read would benefit the entire town, yet he doesn't do that. „Yet” isn't the good word, really, it should be more like „that's why”, but you get the point. Him not talking isn't about me, it's strictly about him.

this game is too hard for me.

It's actually quite easy: First we lynch either you or stungun. If your town, then stungun's mafia and vice versa. Creature is confscum.

Can you walk me through this?

not much to walk through, I think stungun's vote and posts are too opportunistic to be bussing, and both players are too scummy for this to be TvT. So I think it's SvT and I'm leaning towards stungun more than RC right now for the S.

Which of them does the interaction make look scummy in particular?

My main problem with your post is really that your lining up lynches in the worst possible way. Although I don't like the SG wagon in general. 155 seems very much town to me. Some good points & some extremely silly things I don't think mafia would dare to do.

[Gosrir Elmer Odels]

I had played a game where NSG and RC are both town, and what RC did here is similar to what he did there.

viewtopic.php?p=10156125&user_select%5B ... #p10156125

This is his ISO there. You can find that...

I've read up to page 6. I might read more, but do tell me if you think I need to.

- He wanted NSG to post early so he can read her properly.

That's true. Then he moved onto other players, which he allegedly didn't want to do here. I'm not saying that that start was particularly scummy by itself, but it was different.

- Townred me but decided to let go of that since he didn't see it in my ISO, kind of like what happened here when he imagined UnrealSeal as scum but didn't find it in his ISO either. (Don't know what to make of him mixing up games tho.)

Firstly, context is different, again. Context is key. There's „I thought I thought CJ was town, but I actually don't”, & there's making a scene, placing a vote, disregarding question about the read (it was way before I made the post he's sulking about), then hours later „realising” his „mistake”, but still refusing to give anything about the read. We know nothing about the progression of a read that resulted in a vote.
Secondly, it's not necessarily mixing games up. US isn't playing anything else right now. (just a remark)

- His reads are flip-flopping there too

I've addressed this before. Here's the point: I can understand the RC you linked. He interacts with players who are present, gives reasons, answers questions. The RC in this game does none of that.

"good points" you and i apparently have a very different definition of that.

RC has never been as aggressive as stungun implies with other lynch wagons, his first two votes were very jokey and RVS and his vote on me was defensive in response to the Creature debacle. Other than asking a question I had already answered, asking about meta, and townreading/

buddying up to me in his attempt to join the RC wagon without looking suspicious

his post is incredibly vapid and I can't even make sense of his second point.

And what are these "silly things" that mafia wouldn't do? There's nothing risky about that post

he exposed himself as scum

RC was somewhat aggressive early on. Not the way he was talking, but what he was saying: he pretty much expected to waltz through D1 right into D2, he tells us two other players alignment, we believe him for some reason, lynch the player he wants lynched, then who knows what he was planning further down the line. That was my impression, & that was his attitude up until page 6. So that's one good point. He noticed RC's tone shift, that's another. The one about your post is another one.

By silly things, I mean literally silly things. He seemingly takes one of RC's trashtalk posts seriously. He claims that yeah, NSG posted in the thread because he was voting her. Not like she had just been prodded or anything. I've no idea if these were meant to be jokes or not, I'm kind of leaning more towards that they weren't. & that's hilarious, but it's also not something I think scum would do, because it'd be easy to attack, & there's nothing immediate to gain from it. I mean, he did gain townpoints from me, but that's more of a very high-risk gambit imo.

[Gosrir Elmer Odels]

She's posted once.

[Gosrir Elmer Odels]

I'm fed up. You probably think that I'm fixated on RC, & I am. However, enough is enough, if some users cannot or do not want to play the game, they should replace out. I'm willing to lynch any of {RC, Creature, NSG}. Preliminary intent to hammer to all of them. RC is scum, no question about that. What Creature just did was atrocious, right now he isn't even online. NSG is on V/LA, although somehow she can still post in other threads (in which she plays. I get the situation with modding.)

I'm off to sleep now. When I wake up, I'll check the thread, check which of the three has the biggest wagon, vote on that one (intent to hammer), &

then

read.

[Gosrir Elmer Odels]

Good morning! I see RC's finally off.

VOTE: Creature]
VOTE: NSG
VOTE: Not_Mafia

[Gosrir Elmer Odels]

Hi, Not_Mafia.

@cfj: Have you prodded NSG? It's her second one, so that's 36 hours to force-replace her.

[Gosrir Elmer Odels]

Your looking way too far into what's very obviously stungun trying to joke around, his "silly things" are just filler for his posts. Other than that, I'll have to look through RC's ISO again to get a feel for how aggressive he was actually being.

Also, and I know this sounds kinda shitty, but I think the replace out is pretty town. I can't imagine scum getting that frustrated at another player for scum-reading them.

The NSG stuff was not filler. I see how it might seem filler, but he had to acknowledge her response willy-nilly, so

something

had to be there in that post anyway. (As a sidenote, I'm honestly not sure if it was meant as a joke.) The RC part is debatable, but consider that the post already had enough content to fly under the radar. I personally wouldn't have called him out for lurking if his post was half as short as it was. What I mean is that he didn't need filler.

Looking at replacing out as a towntell is bad. There are two scenarios: the one you're proposing is that the RC slot is town, but even though he's been playing games for years (based on his wiki a lot of games), the notion of someone else scumreading him, & that he needs to defend himself is so alien to him that he has no means to cope with it. He even fails to comprehend words directed to him, so when the question is whether posting about being drunk is scummy, his input is that getting drunk isn't scummy (which is true, for the record, but irrelevant), & when he's criticised for his lack of explaining his reads, he explains instead the concept of changing them over time (thanks for nothing.) He's asked to do some extremely basic things, in this case providing the evolution of one of his reads & also providing evidence to support his claims (from his own meta.) He refuses to comply, he also refuses to play. Now, in this scenario he isn't doing anything to change the situation, so he shouldn't expect to change it, yet he doesn't replace out until much later.

That was scenario 1, the one you seem to be advocating. Here's scenario 2: the slot is mafia. RC gets some attention, & long story short he needs to come up with some believable context for his reads, which he doesn't have, so he tries some (meant-to-be) subtle misrepresentation the push on him, in hopes it'd be dropped. It's not dropped. So he tries non-compliance, in hopes it'd be dropped. It's not dropped. Then he throws a temper tantrum, in hopes it'd be dropped. It's still not dropped. So as a last resort he strategically replaces out. It's (probably) against the rules (depends on the mod, I assume), but we wouldn't know because the game would be otherwise compromised.

Scenario 1 seems cartoonish to me. I can see a player doing that, sure, but not one that's been apparently around for years. If someone really can't take pretty much any pressure in this game, I don't think they'd hang around here for years.

(I'm all about sidenotes, it seems, but imo nightfall would be the healthiest thing that could happen to town right now. Please refrain from extending the deadline, pretty please, sugar on top.)

[Gosrir Elmer Odels]

What sets CJ apart from the other two?

[Gosrir Elmer Odels]

I see, you were kind of pitching potential lynches to CJ. What sets SG apart from the other two then?

[Gosrir Elmer Odels]

I don't like the SG wagon. From page 7 on, I've been reading him as varying levels of town. Here's just one thing: why would he extend the day as scum before knowing what exactly is going to happen? I'm trying to get it, but I see little to no merit in it.

Since CJ's defence of the NM slot has been brought up: I've been thinking about it recently. If NM somehow ends up being town, then CJ is basically conftown. On the other hand, if NM is mafia, then CJ is likely mafia (which is a few notches below confscum.) With that said, a CJ townflip would do little to clear NM for me (& it shouldn't clear him for anyone else, but you're all on the SG wagon for some reason...) I didn't really have a feel what the rational implications of a CJ flip would be, so I made up some numbers, crunched them, & it came out that even if CJ is town, NM is still pretty scummy.

P-EDIT: -_-

[Gosrir Elmer Odels]

Is this an aspect of the famous Mohab meta that's supposedly sooo town?

[Gosrir Elmer Odels]

I mean, if you thought he was scum, in this case that's just one more reason to wait a little bit imo. But there's no point in discussing this issue at this point anyway.

[Gosrir Elmer Odels]

VOTE: N_M

[Gosrir Elmer Odels]

@RC: You should learn how to handle being pressured, then scumread, & start „answering questions when you're on the hotseat”, as someone else put it before. If one player can „tilt you out”, it's not me, who's got a problem.

Anyway, I didn't expect to wake up to a lynch, but it happens. Thanks for the game all, thanks for the modding cfj, in particular.