Micro 814: Geriatric Trio (Mafia Victory!!!)

[Oath]

@Mod, yeah a game start PM would probably help. I only found this because I was worried it might have started and actively look for it.

checking in

[Oath]

RVS is boring and largely unhelpful to me. Ss sometimes I participate, sometimes I don't.

What's interesting is wanting my head when there were actually only 5 in game posts before mine (not including Mod posts) and apparently I'm supposed to have "more to offer", really? Wagon for reaction is one thing, but the rationale is that my lack of RVS makes me more likely to be scum is reaching.

That being said MagnaofIllusion is better than that, even the explanation of thought (explaining that typically they'd say different) rubs me the wrong way - like simply voting me was too risky for them?

MusicBox and Invisibility seem like wagoning to get the game started which indeed is very towny and I have no qualms with - they didn't try to mask it with some weak explanation.

RedCoyote, though... remarks that they agree with MoI's reservation and is the one that asserts I should have more to offer 5 posts in- lol - then votes Invisibility? If you agree with MoI, who's to say Invisibility didn't as well? Or again could have been wagoning like they suggested? In which case, a reaction test or early wagon tends to be easier to manipulate if people know that's why you're doing it.

VOTE: RedCoyote

That's an actual vote, if that wasn't clear.

[Oath]

@hiro Why'd you vote Cheesy over myself?

10,000,000 % scummy Oath > Cheesy so far.. or no?

[Oath]

RVS is boring and largely unhelpful to me. Ss sometimes I participate, sometimes I don't.

What's interesting is wanting my head when there were actually only 5 in game posts before mine (not including Mod posts) and apparently I'm supposed to have "more to offer", really? Wagon for reaction is one thing, but the rationale is that my lack of RVS makes me more likely to be scum is reaching.

That being said MagnaofIllusion is better than that, even the explanation of thought (explaining that typically they'd say different) rubs me the wrong way - like simply voting me was too risky for them?

So how should be better again? I'm not really clear on what your stance is. Scum have and will continue to be found in RVS. Your post came off as artificial and not wanting to make waves. Which is something that on page 1 warrants a vote as scum tend to have to be more careful about how they open the game.

But a question to

you and Cheesy

- why do you find empty wagoning to more indicative of Town play than posts with content attached?

It's not so much that the empty wagon itself is more indicative of town, it's that votes with explanation lead me away from what I think would be the town motivation of an RVS wagon specifically - reaction testing/pressure. Which I explained in my previous post is largely unsuccessful when exposed imo. Given that your vote had an explanation, it's easy to say that vote is serious (not simply to gauge) and you support the reasoning you put forth - reasoning that I find weak and more indicative of scum because as I stated there were on 5 in game posts before mine. It seemed like an easy NAI thing to latch onto, especially since your explanation began with a contradiction of how you would normally interpret things. It seems like over -explaining weak scumhunting.

@hiro Why'd you vote Cheesy over myself?

10,000,000 % scummy Oath > Cheesy so far.. or no?

I don't think missing the RVS vote in the first post is a huge indicator of failing to utilize vote. I do think that Cheesy defending such an extreme version of the idea ("it's not scummy" vs "well, it would have been bad if it kept up, but it didn't") is suspicious.

it's like you were nibbling on a kittens ear and then Cheesy said "WHATS EVERYONE LOOKIN AT? IT'S FINE TO EAT KITTENS." I don't really think you were full on eating that kitten but it's real real bad Cheesy wanted to let you.

Do scum not buddy town? And vice versa?

[Oath]

I'm saying RVS wagons are best unexplained if they are to yield the maximum result. Like now, let's say both those unexplained votes are town- they've pushed the game forward and allowed people to expose themselves. We now have a reference point for the day and several players philosophies on wagons. I'm not saying that they should always STAY unexplained, but the initial vote doesn't need an explanation and imo is far more successful when allowed to linger if the purpose is to reaction test or apply pressure. I, for one, will reaction test and hate having to explain myself before it's actually accomplished anything - now the reactions I'm getting are less genuine than they could have been all because people can't just chill for sec and let it play out.

[Oath]

I wasn't asked for my Cheesy read and I haven't said anything of what I feel about what he said or what you've said. Both strike me as odd. If you want to know something, you can ask btw.

[Oath]

It's not so much that the empty wagon itself is more indicative of town, it's that votes with explanation lead me away from what I think would be the town motivation of an RVS wagon specifically - reaction testing/pressure. Which I explained in my previous post is largely unsuccessful when exposed imo. Given that your vote had an explanation, it's easy to say that vote is serious (not simply to gauge) and you support the reasoning you put forth - reasoning that I find weak and more indicative of scum because as I stated there were on 5 in game posts before mine. It seemed like an easy NAI thing to latch onto, especially since your explanation began with a contradiction of how you would normally interpret things. It seems like over -explaining weak scumhunting.

I'm not sure I buy this. You think it is more Town motivated to just worldlessly vote as opposed to articulating reasons? Nah, that's bad. Pressure is applied by making a player defend their stances (like I've made you do here) and analyzing whether the resulting explanation makes sense. Empty wagonning does not allow for analysis.

In your opinion. This is just a difference in game play and not even worth arguing over.

1. Your post can't be suspected because it was way early and like the 6th post.
2. I'm scum-hunting is "suspect" because I've latched onto a minor thing.

If it was indeed so early as you are discussing there is no feasible way you should think I could have powerful scumhunting. The logical reaction based on what you said before should be "Well OK at least we are getting out of damn RVS ASAP". What I found the tiniest crumb that I could see some scum motivation on in the first page to make a vote to help move us out of RVS into real discussion (which given you claim RVS is useless should be very Pro-Town). Yet you are working double time to continually downplay my motivation as scummy while not addressing the substance of what I saw there.

How exactly am I working double time to downplay your motivation as scummy? I don't think there's substance in what you saw. We largely disagree on game play obviously and I do have a scum read on you currently so I'm not sure what you're getting at?

I don't think you could have powerful scum hunting based on this game. I'm an alt. I'm confident that you're better than that

1. Do you not think scum have to work much harder in RVS than Town and can be caught in finding posts that show the natural unease that brings?
2. If you think my post is scum motivated why aren't you voting me again? I mean ... that would be the logical course of action for Town who thinks they see scum motivated posting. I know that's what I did with your awkward entrance post.
3. Do you think Music Box and Invis are more actively moving the game forward as Town than me?

1. I don't
2. Because I thought RedCoyote was scummier.
3. No, but I think they attempted to GENUINELY. Scum are great at moving games forward, if you're scum and can get locked down as town day one based on participation and conviction you are basically steering the rest of the game.

I wasn't asked for my Cheesy read

and I haven't said anything of what I feel about what he said or what you've said. Both strike me as odd. If you want to know something, you can ask btw.

Also the bolded ... terrible if you are indeed Town. Your job is not to sit passively and wait to be "asked" your opinion. Your job as Town is to find scum.

Well again, that's just game style we disagree on and as I said before I'm not saying things have to STAY unexplained, but I don't rush to volunteer or explain things this early on because I like to let things play out. As much as it's great for town to come to together and reveal things, you don't reveal when you drop crumbs until it's time to because scum is also here. Same for my reads, especially early on- I don't think all of my thoughts need to be posted in thread until I'm confident and have allowed people to answer certain things or respond. If I tell you what I'm looking for or at, would scum not just attempt to fit that?

[Oath]

@RedCoyote - hito said not utilizing a vote is 10 million percent scummy

[Oath]

No.. meaning I've played with you before and know first hand you're better than that. I'm not saying you can't catch scum in an artificial first post, I'm saying it's HIGHLY unlikely... but I've also done it and it's worked out in my favor.

First and foremost, I can give myself more benefit than I give ANYONE else because I know I'm town. That's the only thing I do know right now.

If you argued it was a playstyle difference again I would have to go review games, but last game I was in with you - we were both town and you were better than that. Granted it's been a few years, but this is my start... Also I'm not voting you so obviously my scum read isn't so great. Why are you so defensive?

[Oath]

@ Oath and Cheesy: Are you suggesting (in 22 and 24), that RC should have put Oath to L-1? And in Oath's 26 that hito should have done it?

@ nonny: In 31 you imply that Cheesy should have done the same. Why would you want a wagon at L-1 at this stage of the game?

I wasn't suggesting that hito should have done it, I wanted to know hito's personal reasoning for not doing it- none of which was L-1 avoidance driven. Which really isn't a risk Day 1 with this activity, who's quickhammering Day 1 with no info and not immediately getting lynched the next day phase? If we allowed that this game is a bust anyway.

[Oath]

I wasn't suggesting that hito should have done it, I wanted to know hito's personal reasoning for not doing it- none of which was L-1 avoidance driven. Which really isn't a risk Day 1 with this activity, who's quickhammering Day 1 with no info and not immediately getting lynched the next day phase? If we allowed that this game is a bust anyway.

In theory yes; but in practise a quickhammerer rarely gets lynched straight away.

Even still hito's reasoning was not to avoid placing me at L-1 which is why I asked the question in the first place.

[Oath]

Am I still voting RC? Because if so, I'm content with that vote still.

[Oath]

I'm VT.

Someone hammer.

[Oath]

I was put to L-1. I've claimed VT (not a power role). I have to die eventually. Might as well get it out of the way Day 1 before I become a liability later on as mafia now has no reason to target me and can leave me around for all the distracting speculation.

Running another person up risks outing a power role before Night 1.

I am the right lynch since we don't have anything else. I think you all should stop running people up off so little though. Dig deeper. Activity is not scum indicative. It may be anti-town, but some games I lurk simply because I like watching and seeing who is quickest to latch onto that weak reasoning and it's helped me catch scum.

Change up your mind frame and bring home the win for town please.

Kthnx

[Oath]

Please do not run anyone else up to claim here. Seriously.

[Oath]

^ Good point {vote]Oath[/vote]

[Oath]

VOTE: Oath

[Oath]

NOW - that's that. I'm town- go back and reevaluate all your reads and stop pushing up on weak shit.

[Oath]

WHY AM I STILL ALIVE?

@kmd... calm yourself you aren't going to be able to research my meta with 100% certainty because all the games I've been in under this account are still ongoing.

I'm saying lynch me because it's the best option if you think there's even a chance I'm scum. That way I'm not here making people doubtful for the remainder of the game and becoming a liability. No one has a definite scum read and I've claimed. Let's just do this.

[Oath]

Probably not.

[Oath]

I mean I've basically said that if you believe AT ALL that I'm scum you need to lynch me. Your worries will only grow and become a distraction the longer I'm left alive.

[Oath]

I'm not participating in running another person up to L-1. I've already made it clear that I don't think that's what is best for the day. So maybe you move forward and keep your thoughts about what I should and should not be doing to yourself seeing as I've already explained my stance several times.

[Oath]

I mean I'm obviously reading the thread and if something was more than 70% likely to be scum I'd speak up, but in 7 pages we have a whole lot of nothing. Excuse me for not railing another possible townie on weak reasoning. It's not my style. I jump in when it's worth it.

[Oath]

Nothing in the last 7 pages strikes me as certainly towny or certainly scummy OR ELSE I WOULD MENTION IT.

I'm not going to give partial, weak reads that anyone (including scum) could latch onto to push someone else up instead of me. I've made that clear. If something strikes me as certainly scummy then I will let you guys know. Pinky promise.

I'm not trying to be petty. This is real. The first 7 pages are garbage imo. If you feel something substantial other than weak is happening then good for you. Obviously it hasn't because I'm town, but you'll figure that out upon my flip which I do think is helpful on a larger scale of making you guys reassess how you read people. I mean you may say now I'm being scummy for not helping you sort everyone else, but the INITIAL reasoning for my wagon was gross and weak and that is why we are at this point because I can't argue against gross reasoning with anything other than "that's not the case". So just go ahead and lynch me. You obviously don't like my play style and you think I'm scum. I actually think it's a great benefit at this point for you to see me flip and see who initial pushed the lynch on weak reasoning and people who keep making this about me when you could be moving on.

[Oath]

Towny
Kmd
MoI
Music Box
Invis

Scummy
ceej
nonny
hito
Not_Mafia

[Oath]

Towny
Kmd
MoI
Music Box
Invis

Scummy
ceej
nonny
hito
Not_Mafia

I AM TOWN, hito is likely scum. Kmd is deftown.