micro 816-I: spaam (normal game) (gambe over)

[mutantdevle]

Howdy howdy howdy. I’m northsidestory 2.0 and I’m here to fuck your day up but leave you smiling anyway.

I’ll catch up once I get to my PC.

[mutantdevle]

So I'm caught up of the game's preceding events.

I don't really have anything to comment on since I was reading it as just some reading rather than something to engage with. However, I will be engaging with things said from now on so that y'all can get some AI stuff from my slot.

Right now I think Gamma is town and Ircher feels *different* which is giving me a scum twitch.

In general, I find something off about {Ircher, Prof Fridays, GeminiTwin12 & Flavor Leaf}. Idk why but I just feel like both scums could be in such pool as if you pick any 2 players from this pool then they make sense as a scum team.

[mutantdevle]

oh no mutant and I have the same scum PoE
except flavor has me slightly pocketed

can you please be town Mutant? I'll be so so happy

I can't promise that I am town, but I can certainly promise that northsidestory was.

[mutantdevle]

hai
nice to see you hope we both roled town this time (I think our only experiences have been tit for tat and rocky horror where you were scum, and be someone else where I was scum)

Correctamundo. A word I have never used before and hopefully never will again.

(town points to those who get the reference).

[mutantdevle]

Right now I think Gamma is town and Ircher feels *different* which is giving me a scum twitch.

pls talk about both of these in more detail

When I was reading your posts I remember thinking "yeah, this is the stuff I had to deal with when I was scum" and I feel like Ircher should have said something with more weight by now which makes me feel like he has a little less care for this game - something I assume comes from scum!Ircher.

[mutantdevle]

and btw what games have you played with Ircher?

Only a PYP X/Y. That was a fun game despite losing.

[mutantdevle]

Are you trying to discredit my knowledge of you now?

Because this:

I haven’t said something of more weight because there isn’t quite a lot to go by.

Gave me the impression that you thought I was right about my analysis and that your defence was that there isn't a lot to go on yet.

Do you want to change your defence to that I'm not familiar enough with you?

[mutantdevle]

Also, if you're going to talk about there not being enough sample size, isn't that what you kept saying to me throughout our PYP X/Y game? If I remember correctly, everyone I identified as town with my sample sizes of data were indeed town, leaving a very accurate lynch pool (though to be fair we had already lost at that point anyway).

I know that my meta-knowledge of you and my meta-knowledge of that setup are unrelated and completely different, but just don't go pulling the sample size argument on me.

[mutantdevle]

oh yeah I forgot I was voting him for a reason. Sorry I've been playing too many games the past week or so, thankfully one just ended and [redacted], so I'll be a little more able to keep my reads straight. Still, you two seemed really into scumreading each other, so it was still a little weird how quickly you both dropped it. I think you look worse from it than Gamma, possibly from conf!bias, but you're right that the professor should maybe still be in my lynchpool

honestly that reads list was more the reaction test while I catch up & re-read, which I'm still doing

What the hell is this?

honestly that reads list was more the reaction test

hahahahahhaha

VOTE: Irrelephant11

[mutantdevle]

Do tell

Tell what? Is it not obvious?

I think your response to someone pointing out you just completely changed a read that you had been talking about for a good part of the game was complete bull. You tried to play your mistake all cool like but I believe that you just scum slipped.

I'm surprised that others are letting you get away with a wonky reads list that you then tried to describe as a reaction test.

[mutantdevle]

In general, I find something off about {Ircher, Prof Fridays, GeminiTwin12 & Flavor Leaf}. Idk why but I just feel like both scums could be in such pool as if you pick any 2 players from this pool then they make sense as a scum team.

Please talk more about these players individually. "any combo makes sense as a team" is a terrible reason to scumread individual players.
Also I find it odd that mutant's ISO has this lynchpool and then some "Ircher is scummy" posts and then his first vote is on me. I've proven to myself time and time again that I overreact to being voted and/or antagonized as town though so I'm trying to leave room on this read for others to comment

I find it odd that you'd question this now instead of earlier. My guess at your timing would be that you're trying to distract my mind and the mind of others from your slip.

And I never said that I scum read any of these individuals. I was just saying that you could pair any 2 of the individuals from this list and you could believe they're a scum team.


"Also I find it odd that mutant's ISO has this lynchpool and then some "Ircher is scummy" posts and then his first vote is on me" - You say that as though my vote on you came out of nowhere.

[mutantdevle]

- I know, and that's a terrible reason for a lynchpool. It's early game, you can combine most players and make a realistic team. Why name those four players in particular? What about them is scummy?
-I'm not talking about your vote on me there, I'm talking about your *lack of vote* on Ircher

Whoever said I wanted to lynch in that pool? I was just making a note of these players. I've given some thoughts on Ircher but for the rest of these individuals, they aren't scummy, the way they've been interacting from what I read just strikes me as something that intertwines well.

Why would I be voting Ircher? I'm fine where my vote is just as I was fine with not voting previously.

[mutantdevle]

His 247 and 308 as we discuss on this page are also not obviously from a town mindset imo.

In what way are they not from a town mindset? This is such a generic statement.

[mutantdevle]

Says that they are trying to appear town to us

rather than

actually read through what's been going on.

Rather than? I

have

read through what's been going on; I just find no need to comment on any of it. I can both try to appear town and have read what's happened so far - they're not mutually exclusive actions.

[mutantdevle]

Mutant, if you didn't scum read any of the people in the post, what was the point of making such a statement? If you don't scum read anyone, they cannot be in a scum pool.

To express my thoughts...

Not everything one thinks has to lead to something, but it's good to document thought processes so that you can understand how my thoughts develop as well as giving me something to refer back to latter if anything comes of these thoughts.

[mutantdevle]

Also, on your reaction test Irrelephant, did you gain anything from it?

Probably not - because getting your own reads wrong is hardly a reaction test. It's especially not a reaction test when you immediately reveal it after just 1 person picks up on it.

Like surely, if this was a reaction test and not a slip, he'd wait for everyone to chime in about it instead of immediately revealing it wouldn't he?

[mutantdevle]

I mean normally, yes. But in this case I don't mean "I wrote this not because I believe it, but just to gather how everyone reacts". I mean "I wrote this because I'm trying to catch up, and this is what I thought I had maybe been thinking last time I was here, but I'm not sure, so let me just say it and see if it holds true". And then Ircher reminded me that I had actually been scumreading Prof Fridays for a reason (@Gemini this is what I got from it). And then I made the post you think is a scumslip

Why did you try to dress it up as a reaction test then?


I also find it odd that you 'forgot' you were scum reading Prof. If you really believed it, you wouldn't forget - especially not after mentioning Prof at the start of said post. The very principle that you'd forget something like this in this way suggests to me that your reads aren't genuine and are actually fabricated.

[mutantdevle]

I wanted to see what people would say if I gave some estimation of my reads - I knew that if I misremembered anything someone would bring it up

I don't see anything in your post that would suggest this so it is literally just your word which quite frankly isn't good enough.

You make it sound as if you planned to make a mistake in your reads and that it's no biggie. If you knew you were going to make mistakes, why did you not quickly look through the ISOs of those you were unsure of to refresh your thoughts? Is that not the townie thing to do?

[mutantdevle]

His 247 and 308 as we discuss on this page are also not obviously from a town mindset imo.

In what way are they not from a town mindset? This is such a generic statement.

You didn't answer this Mr. FakeELephant.

[mutantdevle]

I said it's not obvious to me that those posts come from town, when it seemed like those were what other players were townreading you for.

What made you think those 2 posts in particular were responsible for people town reading me?

The only people explicitly town reading me are Gamma and Ircher. Maybe ducky but that's nothing official. Gamma clearly formed his town read on me from my responses to the questions he asked me and Ircher didn't state a reason; though it can be inferred it was from my recent posts at the time - but that only justifies half of your statement.

Why ask if my answer can't ever be good enough?

I never said that your answers could never be good enough, just that the specific one you're giving me for one of my questions wasn't. It'd concern me if you felt as though your answers were hopeless to this specific event in the game.

I didn't think a mistake would lead to this mess.

How naive must you be to think it wouldn't concern others when one of your seemingly stronger reads blatantly and abruptly changed? Do you not think it's scum indictive when player's reads change for no reason?

it doesn't feel like mutant wants to understand my perspective, he just wants to push.

There's no reason that I can't both understand your perspective and push against it. I understand your proposed perspective very well. If you are town, you've made a mistake which you see as being blown out of proportion. Whilst I understand that perspective, to accept it would be to assume you are town. I do not accept your perspective. I see a likelihood of you being scum here so pushing against your perspective is the best way to discover the truth. For all I know, your perspective could be that of scum who made a slip and is now frustrated on being pushed for it.

I find it hard to believe this wasn't you giving a scum/lynch pool. Especially because if it wasn't a lynchpool, you have offered basically no reads since replace-in aside from scumreading me and Ircher.

no reads aside from town reading gamma and scum reading you* I never said I scum read Ircher. And that's how I like to play - I don't care for leans in either direction. If my read isn't strong, it's null. Right now I have a strong belief that you are scum and an even stronger belief that Gamma is town. If you expect me to have a read on everyone by the end of the day then you're just going to be disappointed. It's entirely plausible that we could make it to end game without me forming a read on anyone.

You never voted Ircher. It was a scumcase without a vote to back it up. Why?

Do all scam cases really need a supporting vote? I believe that the more you use your vote the less value it holds. It's more significant that I'm voting you due to the fact that I didn't use it on Ircher. Whilst I expressed reasons that Ircher is scummy, I don't actually scum read him at this time. I've played around with the idea that he is scum, expressed in the thread what has been going through my mind, but arrived at the conclusion that it isn't enough to scum read him fully. I'm likely to view Ircher with a more critical eye though, but that doesn't warrant a vote. If I had reached the opposite conclusion then my vote would definately have been on Ircher.

[mutantdevle]

I mean you admit here that you have listed reason why Ircher is scummy. I will add that you have also not listed a single reason he might not be scum. Apparently my single post was enough for a vote, so I do find it scummy that you refuse to vote him despite listing multiple reasons he could be scum.

Also like I and others have said, your "not-a-lynchpool" list from one of your early posts is meaningless as associational data, and if it's not a set of scumreads it makes no sense to share. You can pick most pairs of players on D1 (heck, even us) and say they're a likely scumteam. You could have listed every single player in between those brackets. I haven't seen from you that you're doing any work to find pairs who cannot be scum together, so why did you list those four names specifically? I think it made a ton of sense as a lynchpool, but I think now that you've decided you'd rather have me lynched you feel the need to backtrack, say you haven't given many reads, that you might never give reads! (even though you say at the same time that you have two strong reads)

Your play makes zero sense to me so far. I would expect to understand something about your town mindset if we shared an alignment. I don't. VOTE: mutantdevle
This also explains why I thought there was at most one scum in the five or six players who have been active since daystart. I found the one who needed to be replaced.

Do I need to provide reasons he is

not

scum? Surely the burden of proof here is that, for him to be scum, I need to provide reasons to prove that he

is

scum. Hence the lack of that means he isn't. All my reasons to suspect him I do not believe to be enough to say with any degree of certainty that he is scum.

I'm not scum reading you for a single post. It's a mixture of your original slip, your attempts to justify it - my vote was for these reasons - and then your answers thereafter giving me no reason to back off. And the suspicion of you and the suspicion of Ircher are completely different. My suspicion of Ircher is entirely based on my expectations of him. He's not meeting my expectations. That doesn't make him scum because my own expectations are by no means an accurate measure of his alignment. On the other hand, you made a slip that is specifically to do with the very nature of being scum. As scum, your reads aren't real. I believe your reads list, shit justification of a mistake, and reaction thereafter, to be indicative that your reads are made up. Do you see how the 2 are completely different?

If you think that my list doesn't give any associations then clearly you aren't looking for them. The very fact that I felt the need to mention those 4 is worth something. And it does make sense to share... if I later make a case that 2 of these players are a scum team then you'll be able to trace back the moment I started believing in such premise - where the route of the idea came from. You can then asses whether I've had a natural progression of thought or if I've been planning a fake case in the long run.

And I disagree that you could pick anyone and say they could be a scum team. Naturally, some people are going to make more sense than others. And, as I've said, I mentioned those 4 in particular as, from reading all the posts before the replace in, I thought their posts complemented each other well. I've made no backtracking of any sort, I still have this belief of these 4.

It's true I haven't given many reads. I have 2. That's how I play. My reads build slowly and carefully. I don't care for rushing the progression of my reads or claiming a town read where I've merely liked a single post. As for not forming a read on anyone, I meant someone. I'm not likely to complete a game with no reads, that would be ridiculous. But it's plausible that I could go a game without forming a conclusive read on player B for example. I find that you don't always need to.

"Your play makes zero sense to me so far. I would expect to understand something about your town mindset if we shared an alignment. VOTE: mutantdevle"
So basically, your vote on me is because we think differently? Nice.

[mutantdevle]

@Gamma if you think mutant is town from some interaction you two shared I'm gonna need a quote or two with an explanation, I really didn't see it

Right now I think Gamma is town and Ircher feels *different* which is giving me a scum twitch.

pls talk about both of these in more detail

Right now I think Gamma is town and Ircher feels *different* which is giving me a scum twitch.

pls talk about both of these in more detail

When I was reading your posts I remember thinking "yeah, this is the stuff I had to deal with when I was scum" and I feel like Ircher should have said something with more weight by now which makes me feel like he has a little less care for this game - something I assume comes from scum!Ircher.

okay cool
that had a couple of reason to it
1) me checking your read on me cos I wanted to ensure you had something behind it. I think that's a good thought process fyi.
2) I just wanted you to expand in general to help get a decent read on you. fyi: town read for now.
and btw what games have you played with Ircher?

[mutantdevle]

and tw to provide deeper thoughts than he has been.

I'd like to echo this. I'm noticing a distinct lack of a quack which usually brightens up my games.

[mutantdevle]

So it's more hypothetical / observing in nature?

Yes, exactly.

Why not? Is it the content lacking actual weight?

It's not exactly lacking per say I just don't feel like I have anything to say on the events other than the conclusions I've already summarised (Gamma town & Ircher below expectations). The questioning of things was handled by others so I don't feel the need to bring up points that no longer seem relevant. If I was to try and comment about the things that occurred then it would be entirely the hypothetical / observing stuff except, in my opinion, less relevant. I don't want to make a long ass post containing (or fill up a page with) every little thing I think about stuff. I'd much rather engage with things in real time and go from there.

Other than that it's really just laziness.

Maybe that's a bad policy on replacing into games :3

[mutantdevle]

GIF's lurking is genuinely frustrating and I'm not all that opposed to just lynching him for it.

[mutantdevle]

I don't think he's anything, there's nothing to read him on. That's the problem. And problems must be eliminated.

[mutantdevle]

I'm tempted to put GuyInFreezer to L-1 tbh.

[mutantdevle]

Wtf, I don't understand this thinking here. You realise the mod's design for this setup isn't bound by such logic? A role with such juxtaposition could exist for this exact reason.

[mutantdevle]

Wtf, I don't understand this thinking here. You realise the mod's design for this setup isn't bound by such logic? A role with such juxtaposition could exist for this exact reason.

I don't think it exists for more then just that said reason

Are you going to share these reasons or is this statement empty?

[mutantdevle]

Am I supposed to dislike Radiant or sheep him? I can't remember what people said in previous games I've played.

[mutantdevle]

Oof.

I find this kill rather odd.

[mutantdevle]

How so?

I don’t recall any particular reason that he would have been considered a threat.

[mutantdevle]

Ftr even ircher's EOD vicarious creatureposting was cringey. It felt more like "look I have a creature" than an actual reason not to think his butt is scummy af

Gut is telling me were looking at Good Scum offwagon and they killed off wagon to throw us off. the kill is stupid as shit by 2d logic means which is informing this gut read

I'm kinda coasting a little because this gut read also feels dumb but oh well

Umm, ducky, if you think that the night kill was "stupid as shit" then why did you call my post scummy?

Oof.

I find this kill rather odd.

Scummy

I express the same confusion that you, and many others have done, for this nightkill. What was different about me?

[mutantdevle]

TW is likely town. I’ve been getting townDuck vibes left and right.

Could you explain this read please?

[mutantdevle]

This happens early on Mutants entry, and although Gamma is like Mutant’s only started town read, he is never brought up again.

What need have I to bring up Gamma again? Unless he does something that makes me reconsider my read on him, I feel no real need to engage with him given we have both formed a conclusion on each other - aside, of course, from asking him about his other reads as advice which I feel like I have no need to do at this stage.

[mutantdevle]

okay cool
that had a couple of reason to it
1) me checking your read on me cos I wanted to ensure you had something behind it. I think that's a good thought process fyi.
2) I just wanted you to expand in general to help get a decent read on you. fyi: town read for now.
and btw what games have you played with Ircher?

The quote of Gamma’s i posted earlier was also directed towards Mutant. Interesting.

But if we're both scum then that kinda devalues the reason you thought this post made Gamma scum does it not?

This is a really strong scum post, Gamma. Impressed.

Getting a read on you from someone else, and then having the player do something for you.

You’re getting a player to want you to trust them rather than the Mafia way of you trying to get them to trust you.

Nice.

This obviously wouldn't be his intent if he knew me to be scum. Maybe you should take this as a sign that, if either of us was scum, we're not scum together?

[mutantdevle]

Correction. Not chainsaw, but by attacking the previous scum target of Ircher to possibly persuade Ircher back over.

Maybe that’s a bit of a stretch, but I definitely can see a scum trajectory with those posts.

It's most definitely stretching. I think the reason and intent behind my posts are clear here.

[mutantdevle]

I'm okay with you scum reading a strong town read of mine - because a lot of my reads tend to turn out wrong - but trying to tie me in with them through 'PoE'? Nah. I think you need to do some reevaluating.

[mutantdevle]

I think Irrelephant's day 2 posting has convinced me that they are town.

[mutantdevle]

the worst, Flavor Leaf, and GeminiTwin12 are the 3 people I'm currently running through in my head. From my recent posts, you can probably tell which I'm trying to sort first.

I've kinda glossed over RC because they have quite a reputation that leads me to believe that if they are scum then I'll probably never figure that out on my first play with them.

Honestly, I'm actually glad that Ircher and prof fridays were the 2 deaths since my suspicion of Ircher was holding me back from pursuing other reads and I was getting pretty much nothing either way from Prof.

[mutantdevle]

Gemini and Leaf were sticking out to me a bit yesterday. I don't know why, I just got tingles from them. As for the worst, I've seen something that's made me squint my eyes towards him. It's something that he keeps repeating and I'm sure that as the game goes on I'll be able to figure out if this is a scum tell.

[mutantdevle]

the worst told me in a previous game that he was town in that his scum game was super obvious. So I guess that's what I'm trying to look for in him right now - obvious signs that he is scum. But it makes me worry that I'm letting him get away with slight infringements of his town meta because I believe his scum game will be

that

obvious. I've never played against ducky!scum though.

[mutantdevle]

Lol, why ducky?

[mutantdevle]

Lol ducky I was going through your ISO and realised you asked me a question that I never answered. *insert shade about not pursuing an answer here*

mutant, why the votepark? if I told you I had a n0 inno on Rel where would you vote? (reading between the lines you're never getting that lynch today and we have like 3 days move your ass)

Honestly, if I had to be on someone then I would probably have been on the Ircher wagon. I was suspicious of him and that would have been enough for me to compromise and vote there if needed. Though, I did town read him a bit for consulting Creature but I doubt I'd have jumped off that wagon had I been on it.

Other than that, I most likely would have just unvoted and not placed my vote anywhere else if you claimed an inno on irrelephant yesterday.

[mutantdevle]

Ducky I'd appreciate it if you responded to all my posts on the previous page that concern you and also explain why you now scum read me despite seemingly confidently town reading me yesterday.

[mutantdevle]

despite giving a very clear scumread on me FL hasn't casted a vote my way this dayphase

I've never liked this as a scum tell.

[mutantdevle]

This post is a reminder to myself to reread the last page and a half because I kinda skim read it due to finding it boring.

[mutantdevle]

This post is a reminder to myself to reread the last page and a half because I kinda skim read it due to finding it boring.

Done. Too much pointlessness for my liking. All it's done is made me slightly doubt my irrelephant town read but nowhere near enough to remove it.

[mutantdevle]

This post is a reminder to myself to reread the last page and a half because I kinda skim read it due to finding it boring.

You should, it's probably important

It wasn't

[mutantdevle]

wait wtf how is mutant not scum

How

am

I scum? That's what you'd need to explain. What were you rereading that made you think this?

[mutantdevle]

Mutant is very easily scum here he feels unlike his town self and his defence @ me felt forced and busyworky

Yeah, about that stuff that I said @ you, why haven't you responded to it?

[mutantdevle]

I've kinda glossed over RC because they have quite a reputation that leads me to believe that if they are scum then I'll probably never figure that out on my first play with them.

this is never town's approach, mutant would either townread me for being towny or scumread me in spite of it because I'm

so good as scum

no one actually takes the rational approach but this is exactly what NSG would think I want to hear.

Lol. Where did I ever say I thought you were towny? From what others have said about you in past games and on site you have a reputation to me as someone who is both good and arrogant about it. If you truly are as good as other players say you are, then I have no hope of getting a solid read on you. I once did a calculation of past reads to find that only about 50% of them are correct. With such a low accuracy of reads, why would I waste my time actively trying to get a read on you when you are easily capable of tricking someone as inexperienced as me? Instead, it is far better for me to get a read on everyone I feel capable of reading and then determining your alignment through PoE.

As for NSG, her activity has been low sitewide. She hasn't said anything to me since the 6th when I asked her about her thoughts on Irrelephant

[mutantdevle]

town!mutant in particular is like, hilariously towny in his DEEPLY EARNEST efforts to sort players which I haven't felt in a single one of his posts yet

Really? You don't think my interactions with Gamma was sorting? You don't think my pressure on Irrelephant and then arriving on the opposite conclusion was sorting? You don't think my 808 - 812 concerning flavour leaf was sorting?

You insult me ducky.

As you know, I have a great deal of self-awareness. I know when I'm being scummy. I know when I'm being townie. Some of the stuff I've just listed above I was happy with because I felt like I was doing a good. The fact that you don't find a

single

one of those moments to be the quality that I felt it was is just insulting.

[mutantdevle]

Rel why did you ignore this post and talk about stuff that isn't relevant

Why have you blatantly ignored every instance of me questioning your read on me?

[mutantdevle]

Is that really all you have to say?

[mutantdevle]

I'm busy w work today I'll put my thinking hat on later. You feel more nit picky than passionate tho

Dude, you have had plenty of opportunity to respond to my questions since they started at the start of day 2. Do you think it's outside of my town meta to follow up on the questions I ask?

[mutantdevle]

I'm busy w work today I'll put my thinking hat on later. You feel more nit picky than passionate tho

Dude, you have had plenty of opportunity to respond to my questions since they started at the start of day 2. Do you think it's outside of my town meta to follow up on the questions I ask?

I don't particularly think it's outside your meta as either alignment?

Then why are you criticising me for it when you acknowledge it is something I always do?

[mutantdevle]

If by that you mean you can't post in detail yet then that's fair enough but surely you can understand that I'd still want to question your actions even if you can't answer right away? Though, it is kinda annoying that you keep posting without addressing anything that's been asked of you. I'd prefer it if you stopped posting until you can properly respond.

If you meant "read my posts and you'll find your answers" then you're really going to have to point out where you've said these things and explain things more.

[mutantdevle]

And you're taking exception at my playstyle for my whimsical posting lmao and I'm p sure you know that

I'm confused at what you mean by this?

[mutantdevle]

Thought that may just be because I've stopped being able to process sentences. Maybe I'll understand your 945 after I next sleep.

[mutantdevle]

oh heck i missed it

Just delete some posts

---

yeah actually i should delete a couple of the posts that have votes in them bc like, the vote count is there already! !

[mutantdevle]

You want me to vote irrelephant?

I'd prefer it if you kept engaging with Gemini tbh.

[mutantdevle]

This is my first ever proper prodge since joining this site. I'll read stuff later.

[mutantdevle]

Okay I'm catching up now.

[mutantdevle]

and I'm still slacking on reading + responding to mutant

Well can you get round to responding to me please because I don't want to have to vote you in mylo because you didn't answer my day 2 questions :P

[mutantdevle]

Mutant, Gamma, or Gemeni would be the other scum, meaning Irrelephant by all means should be dead by now if he were town.

I don't understand why tbh?

I wouldn't hammer him as scum. Gamma doesn't seem to have expressed a scum read on him and nor has Gemini. If anyone of us were scum, it would be highly questionable for us to hammer him.

[mutantdevle]

Flavour Leaf I don't know what to make of you because I like your posts but when I read your posts I imagine a menacing voice.

[mutantdevle]

Okay, Flavour Leaf I'm going to make a choice to trust you here. In my head, you are either scum trying to take control or town who is

probably

right. So since I town read Gamma, what you're telling me is that irrelephant and Gemini are the scum team.

Do you want me to place intent to hammer irrelephant?

[mutantdevle]

Anyway mutant you can't intent to hammer since there's now only two votes on me. But welcome back - please do tell why FL is right and what about me/gemini reads scummy to you

So I can just vote you normally then?

I find myself regularly agreeing with FL but not necessarily liking the tone of his posts. Of course, 'tone' is just the way one reads posts so that's me doing that and not necessarily him.

You don't seem scummy to me, I have you as a town read - I'm sheeping here because I want to see where FL's attitude and opinions lead. Despite changing his stance a few times throughout the game, he's confident in them - like he believes each one and then reaches a different conclusion. Actually, reading that back makes me have some faith in town!FL. But the point is that giving FL what he wants is something that, I believe, will give us more information on him. If that involves lynching you, so be it. My read on you isn't the strongest and I'm known to have bad reads - so there's still the chance you could be scum from my PoV. And if lynching town!you proves later that FL is scum, then your death would be worth it and you wouldn't die in vain.

As for Gemini, she is in my lynch pool anyway. Not because she's necessarily scummy, but because she is not one of my town reads and I'm yet to sort her.

[mutantdevle]

I like that you have stepped it up this game day (tw, mutant, and gemini definitely have not)

Yeah, I've been a little bored in this game recently and hence have fallen into my equivalent of lurking.

[mutantdevle]

That’s my point exactly with the questionable to hammer as it didn’t happen. The scum partner of Irrelephant wasn’t going to hammer. I’m leaning towards it being Gemeni.

You're implicating me as being scum here in this situation because I'm not going to hammer him? I don't get it. I'm not going to vote someone that I don't think is scum or has a good enough chance to be. Do you have any reasons that aren't PoE based?

Okay so I just wrote out some stuff explaining how Gemini's post here made me rethink sheeping FL but then as I was writing that I realised I was wrong and started thinking about this:

Assumption: Irrelephant is scum.

It is unlikely scum would feel the need to buss. Hence they would not hammer and would not already be on the wagon.

Conclusion: Irrelephant's scum partner would have to be off the wagon (as FL believes).


Assumption: Irrelephant is town.

As there hasn't been much stated in the way of Irrelephant being scum, scum is probably already on this wagon.

If scum are off the wagon, they would probably consider it too risky to hammer.

Conclusion: There is likely 1 scum on and 1 scum off the wagon.


Overall conclusion: I know my own alignment, I town read irrelephant and Gamma. Hence the only person I don't think is town who is off the wagon is Gemini. Regardless of Irrelephant's alignment, I believe there to be 1 scum off the wagon. So Gemini must be scum.

VOTE: GeminiTwin12

[mutantdevle]

Okay so fun fact I was meant to hit preview with that post but accidentally hit submit because I wanted to check the vote count first.

So if I have accidentally hammered then all I have to say is this:

Lol.

[mutantdevle]

and I'm still slacking on reading + responding to mutant

Well can you get round to responding to me please because I don't want to have to vote you in mylo because you didn't answer my day 2 questions

Throw me a quick post with what you still want from me?

Ugh fine. But next time, you do the work.

[mutantdevle]

Spoiler: List of quotes and things I want the lazy duckling to talk about / respond to:

Oof.

I find this kill rather odd.

Scummy

How so?

I don’t recall any particular reason that he would have been considered a threat.

Umm, ducky, if you think that the night kill was "stupid as shit" then why did you call my post scummy?

I express the same confusion that you, and many others have done, for this nightkill. What was different about me?

As for the worst, I've seen something that's made me squint my eyes towards him. It's something that he keeps repeating and I'm sure that as the game goes on I'll be able to figure out if this is a scum tell.

the worst told me in a previous game that he was town in that his scum game was super obvious. So I guess that's what I'm trying to look for in him right now - obvious signs that he is scum. But it makes me worry that I'm letting him get away with slight infringements of his town meta because I believe his scum game will be

that

obvious. I've never played against ducky!scum though.

Lol, mutant is scum

Lol, why ducky?

Ducky I'd appreciate it if you responded to all my posts on the previous page that concern you and also explain why you now scum read me despite seemingly confidently town reading me yesterday.

town!mutant in particular is like, hilariously towny in his DEEPLY EARNEST efforts to sort players which I haven't felt in a single one of his posts yet

Really? You don't think my interactions with Gamma was sorting? You don't think my pressure on Irrelephant and then arriving on the opposite conclusion was sorting? You don't think my 808 - 812 concerning flavour leaf was sorting?

You insult me ducky.

As you know, I have a great deal of self-awareness. I know when I'm being scummy. I know when I'm being townie. Some of the stuff I've just listed above I was happy with because I felt like I was doing a good. The fact that you don't find a

single

one of those moments to be the quality that I felt it was is just insulting.

Rel why did you ignore this post and talk about stuff that isn't relevant

Why have you blatantly ignored every instance of me questioning your read on me?

you're still my fav mutated hellspawn dw dudd

Is that really all you have to say?

I'm busy w work today I'll put my thinking hat on later. You feel more nit picky than passionate tho

I'm busy w work today I'll put my thinking hat on later. You feel more nit picky than passionate tho

Dude, you have had plenty of opportunity to respond to my questions since they started at the start of day 2. Do you think it's outside of my town meta to follow up on the questions I ask?

I don't particularly think it's outside your meta as either alignment?

Then why are you criticising me for it when you acknowledge it is something I always do?

And you're taking exception at my playstyle for my whimsical posting lmao and I'm p sure you know that

I'm confused at what you mean by this?

As you can see, it's quite a lot that you have avoided answering from me. And going back through this and seeing just how much you have failed to answer makes me thing that you were the scum on the irrelephant wagon.

[mutantdevle]

oh and mutant hasn't posted like any real reads at all this game day
wtf

Lol what? I stated early in this day that I thought you were town. I also explained who I was in the processes of sorting and who I felt the most need of sorting and I'm sure, if you were to ISO me, you'd be able to track the progress I've made in that sorted. My recent posts can show how I've reached a conclusion for now.

[mutantdevle]

Also the fact that gemini called her hammer on Ircher a policy vote comes across as towny to me too

Huh, the above posts reminds me that I should probably be paying more attention to the final VC of day 1 and the opinions of the dead. And now this post itself is a reminder for me to do that some other time because I don't feel like it today.

[mutantdevle]

And if lynching town!you proves later that FL is scum, then your death would be worth it and you wouldn't die in vain.

yuck
this as a reason to give intent to hammer?

Yeah. I just like it when people claim :3 I doubt I'd actually have hammered you thereafter.

Good news for you is that I've reassured myself of your alignment being town (though primarily because I have now finally formed proper scum reads).

[mutantdevle]

Okay so this is my preferred lynch order:

Gemini > the worst >

FL > RC >

Irrelephant > Gamma.

I'm also very confident that at least one of Gemini and FL are scum.

[mutantdevle]

If someone puts the worst to L-1 then I'll place intent to hammer.

[mutantdevle]

Town ducks don't give up.

[mutantdevle]

Mutant, let’s hop over.

VOTE: Irrelephant

Lol no.

I want Gemini or the worst now. Preferably Gemini.

[mutantdevle]

I feel like if I was ever in a scum team with the worst we'd probably just spend a lot of the game just bantering with each other.

[mutantdevle]

ik this is like de3e3e3p s3lf m3ta but like
FL/me scumteam feels a bit cheesy too

Also, there’s no way in hell I let TW say this if we were both scum.

I’m pretty bossy when I’m scum.

Yeah, I'm sure the worst would show you everything he's about to post before he does it because you're bossy. Well, either that or you magically stop him from doing it.

Your comment here is just so stupid.

[mutantdevle]

I’m pretty sure I was already obvAF town, but RC gets paranoid of me like no other.

He literally believes crazy tinfoil hat theories when I’m just town in games. Every single time.

RC like has this thing in his brain that just sees where I’m pushing, and just instantly has to see it as scummy, despite proving otherwise multiple times.

Who are you talking to here?

[mutantdevle]

Irrelephant
Gemeni

If you scum read Gemini more than Irrelephant then why are you voting Irrelephant?

Could you switch back to Gemini please.

[mutantdevle]

ik this is like de3e3e3p s3lf m3ta but like
FL/me scumteam feels a bit cheesy too

Also, there’s no way in hell I let TW say this if we were both scum.

I’m pretty bossy when I’m scum.

Yeah, I'm sure the worst would show you everything he's about to post before he does it because you're bossy. Well, either that or you magically stop him from doing it.

Your comment here is just so stupid.

Lol.

Gamma, you wanna take a crack at this one?
You haven’t experienced scum me, but yes, it’s exactly this.

Why are you reacting as though I said this was in any way indicative that you were scum? I was saying that your comment is stupid is all.

[mutantdevle]

Why is RC, the semi-confirmed enabler claim, lower than the top of your list?

Wait, what about RC's role has been confirmed?

[mutantdevle]

ik this is like de3e3e3p s3lf m3ta but like
FL/me scumteam feels a bit cheesy too

Also, there’s no way in hell I let TW say this if we were both scum.

I’m pretty bossy when I’m scum.

Yeah, I'm sure the worst would show you everything he's about to post before he does it because you're bossy. Well, either that or you magically stop him from doing it.

Your comment here is just so stupid.

Lol.

Gamma, you wanna take a crack at this one?
You haven’t experienced scum me, but yes, it’s exactly this.

Why are you reacting as though I said this was in any way indicative that you were scum? I was saying that your comment is stupid is all.

I’m defensive of my scum play.

You described exactly how I am as scum, so I disagree that it’s stupid. I like talking about myself, simple as that.

Woah woah waoh, are you actually trying to tell me that if you and the worst were a scum team you would have been able to prevent him from making that specific post?

[mutantdevle]

Why is RC, the semi-confirmed enabler claim, lower than the top of your list?

Wait, what about RC's role has been confirmed?

He claimed watcher enabler before the watcher flipped

Well, that just shows how out of it I am because I wasn't even aware prof fridays flipped watcher.

I'd say that this pretty much proves his claim. However, role != alignment and I could see such role being part of the mafia (hence you kill mafia, you get debuff).

[mutantdevle]

Yup

You're full of shit.

You don't control the worst's free will. He wouldn't run every post he makes by you, no one would.

[mutantdevle]

Yup

You're full of shit.

You don't control the worst's free will. He wouldn't run every post he makes by you, no one would.

Lol. If you say so ^.^

Are you for real? I'm so tempted to vote you over this but doing that would be almost as stupid as what you're saying now. I don't get why you're trying to stick with such a hyperbolic claim.

Fine, if your scum game is this bossy/intimidating/powerful/whatever, then show me how in your past scum games all your scum partners run all their posts by you first so that you can force them not to post certain things? Because if you can show me that, then I'd be town reading you because you definitely aren't coming off as bossy this game. In fact, right now you're coming off as a self-absorbed lunatic more than anything else.

[mutantdevle]

I am a self absorbed lunatic. You’re right. They don’t show every post, but i generally develop a tone for the game in my scum games. I play mastermind.

The point stands that you wouldn't have prevented the worst from making such a post and it's stupid to suggest you could have. The point that you're bossy as scum, sure I can believe that. But that doesn't mean you can magically stop people from using specific wording in random posts of theirs.

[mutantdevle]

I swear to god, any time something even remotely dramatic happens votes start getting thrown in each other's faces.

[mutantdevle]

Which 2 of the 3 on my wagon are the scum?

I don't really - care? - right now. I'm happy with my vote, aside from that, I want some hung duck. You don't need my input, you can figure things out yourself.

Right now I'm about to leave my house and when I come back I'm going to bed, so I might offer things in the morning. But like I say, I'm currently happy with my reads.

[mutantdevle]

@mutant did you ever figure this out

I assume you mean about whether or not the thing I spotted about the worst is actually a scum tell or not?

Well, the answer is, I think so. There's a certain thing that he is currently lacking. I looked at his meta and it's definitely more common in his town play than his scum. I asked NSG about it and she said she'd look into it too but no result on that :/

[mutantdevle]

Omg why is there so many new pages since I last read this thread?

I bet an argument broke out and that it consists of a load of back and forth that doesn't lead anywhere and will be a waste of my time to read.

[mutantdevle]

And Mutant, Gamma, TW see that I’m town already,

I never said you were town.

[mutantdevle]

I am highly susceptible to pocketing. sigh

You don't know the half of it

[mutantdevle]

FL's 1234 got me thinking.

RC claimed watcher enabler. The scum team would know RC had no reason to lie about his role if he was town. They'd also know that killing him would nullify the watcher (which they now know exists). Additionally, RC (from my understanding of his reputation) is a good player.

Why is RC still alive?

They'd have to have had real confidence that prof fridays was the watcher in order to kill him instead of RC.

[mutantdevle]

EBWOP: FL's 1324*

[mutantdevle]

Omg why is there so many new pages since I last read this thread?

I bet an argument broke out and that it consists of a load of back and forth that doesn't lead anywhere and will be a waste of my time to read.

Well I was right.

I'm glad other people got some conclusions out of that because I sure as hell didn't. My only conclusion is that I don't like either RC or FL (but not in an AI way).

[mutantdevle]

But it makes sense that scum might know RC is definitely getting protected after his claim

The possibility of a protective is the only thing holding me back from voting RC tbh. The thing is though, there's no guarantee of a protective in this game and I'm sure scum would want to discover they exist sooner rather than later.

[mutantdevle]

You realize the watcher would watch the watcher enabler right

Not necessarily. I wouldn't. Why would the mafia use someone they just claimed didn't have any night abilities to perform the kill? There's nothing you could do if they were caught doing it. In my opinion, I think prof fridays would be more likely to watch someone they scum read. Besides, since this game doesn't show role cards, for all we know prof could have known there was an enabler to his role.

[mutantdevle]

He hard defended the mislynch and that generally makes you eat bullets

If scum shoot me they're giving away a member, idk why you would expect them to

Your first statement may be true, but that doesn't take away from the fact you are also a good kill candidate - is that not what you were saying earlier? I recall you mentioning you expect to 'absorb' a nightkill. There are also reasons to have kept prof alive too. Wifom is something that gets put forth as an argument and being right or wrong on a mislynch/scum flip is probably the most frequent case I've seen it used.

How would killing you give away a member? It wouldn't 'give away' anything. Sure, it may be used as evidence towards some people rather than others. But it certainly isn't enough on its own. Not everyone views the game as black and white as you do.

[mutantdevle]

Not rly but then mutants posting was horrible so maybe I was wrong on 1/2 of fl tw

And by "horrible" you mean they criticise you so you don't like them?

[mutantdevle]

Perhaps the change of votes was hasty or I'll advised or whatever but mutants last page was a complete Trainwreck and tw/mutant particularly is starting to have solid equity

You do have a tendency to change your vote a lot. As a result, in its current state, it is essentially meaningless to me.

What about myself and the worst being a scum team is getting more equity? As far as I can tell, the only thing that's happened to make you form this opinion is that I have

dared

to criticise you. And if that's the only thing that's made you change your mind on this then you really should have been pushing myself and the worst as a scum time a long time ago.


Like seriously, all I've done is posted what has gone on in my head in regards to you - because for the first time in this game I've actually started considering your alignment - and this is how you respond? Do you really have such a high opinion of yourself that you instantly scum read anyone who even considers for a second that you could be scum? It's honestly pathetic.

[mutantdevle]

mutant you only sound enthusiastic when fighting your own lynch this game

discuss?

- I'm not being lynched.
- I always respond to things that directly concern me (you know that).
- Tone comes primarily from the way you read my posts rather than the way I present them.
- You're wrong :P

[mutantdevle]

- You're wrong

oh I'm wrong about townreading you?

You're wrong about thinking I'm only enthusiastic when defending my own lynch.

[mutantdevle]

You realize the watcher would watch the watcher enabler right

Not necessarily. I wouldn't. Why would the mafia use someone they just claimed didn't have any night abilities to perform the kill? There's nothing you could do if they were caught doing it. In my opinion, I think prof fridays would be more likely to watch someone they scum read. Besides, since this game doesn't show role cards, for all we know prof could have known there was an enabler to his role.

I don't think you understand the watcher role
The only way to get a guilty as a watcher is to "watch" the nightkill target - your results are then anyone who targeted that player, and if you only get the one name, you get a guilty on that player. If you watch someone on the scumteam, your only results will be other town PRs who happened to also target scum with whatever ability.
i.e. Yes, watcher is very likely to watch the only claimed PR, since that's scum's most likely kill, and therefore the best way to get a guilty

Yeah... I get watcher and tracker mixed up sometimes. The other points still apply though.

[mutantdevle]

if it's not a scumclaim he's not someone I want going anywhere close to lylo anyway.

I find this humourous.

[mutantdevle]

oh shoot is it mutant/gamma?
Would explain FL/tw townreading each other
RC/me/Gemini townreading each other and starting to townread FL
mutant's reluctance to take a side on various arguments (leave town in the trenches fighting each other)
Ircher/Prof Fridays' D1 scumread of Gamma
My D1 scumread of Mutant
Mutant's ability to point to his own posts this game day and say "it's all very consistent and you can track my thoughts very clearly, see?"
Gamma's subtle defenses of mutant a couple times this game day

waaaaaaiiiittttt lollllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll this is how FL started the day

pedit: we've come full circle
pedit2: yeah that's also pretty likely. I just don't remember why it's not Gamma anymore
pedit3: I don't understand that last sentence

I wouldn't say that I'm white knighting you, I wasn't willing to defend you at first until I became convinced of your alignment (through my vision of Gemini's guilt). But I do defend my town reads. I'd say I'd defend Gamma just as much but I haven't really had to this game. And I'm probably not just going to let you just lynch. If that gives you fuel to the theory we are scum together then so be it.

Your point about not taking sides confuses me. It shouldn't, since I understand it, but it does. Not gonna lie though, I don't tend to get involved in arguments, that applies IRL. I don't think I've ever actually partaken in any arguments between other people in my entire time on this site.

My ability to point at my own posts and say "look, it's actually consistent" is a sign I'm town. I can't do that as scum, because I'm not consistent as scum. As scum, I use bullshit and charisma to keep myself alive (which is actually somewhat effective). You vastly overestimate my scum game if you think I could forge progressions like that.

[mutantdevle]

because in the towncase scenario mutant doesn't understand game mechanics at all and is saying really really dumb things while attacking like a complete ass to me about them

I have a habit of confusing watcher/tracker sometimes. A few of the points, however, still stand. This 1 mistake does not reflect my ability as a whole. If I make it to mylo, it will be because everyone believes me to be town. I don't get close to the end of the game without obv towning and being able to easily read me as town will make the job of whoever else is involved with mylo a whole lot easier.

[mutantdevle]

Okay so this is my preferred lynch order:

Gemini > the worst >

FL > RC >

Irrelephant > Gamma.

I'm also very confident that at least one of Gemini and FL are scum.

If someone puts the worst to L-1 then I'll place intent to hammer.

Mutant, let’s hop over.

VOTE: Irrelephant

Lol no.

I want Gemini or the worst now. Preferably Gemini.

He’s confident that a team least one of Gemeni or FL is scum, but puts TW in a spot where either way, he’s the partner yet doesn’t go there even though there’s plenty of support.

That puts him in a scenario that once Gemeni is lynched, I’m next.

I never said TW was the partner either way? My ducky read is completely independent of the reasons I have for my over reads.

I have the most confidence in Gemini being scum. That's why my vote is where it is. No one has really given me any to not believe this.

And my opinion that there is 1 scum amongst you and Gemini is quite outdated. It's still a possibility, but I no longer believe it to be as set in stone. If Gemini flips town, I wouldn't take that as a sign that you are scum, instead, it would cause me to reevaluate. In regards to the list I gave in 1132, I'd be comfortable in switching you and RC.

[mutantdevle]

ALSO, the whole conversation Mutant and I had makes sense coming from him who hasn’t been able to control TW

I'd consider myself and the worst to be friends. I doubt we'd ever have any quarrels with each other if we ever rolled scum together. And I'm more of an obedient person than a controlling one.

[mutantdevle]

can you do a quick summary of your scumread of gemini?
@mutant

Sure. I arrived at the conclusion when I was brainstorming this:

Assumption: Irrelephant is scum.

It is unlikely scum would feel the need to buss. Hence they would not hammer and would not already be on the wagon.

Conclusion: Irrelephant's scum partner would have to be off the wagon (as FL believes).


Assumption: Irrelephant is town.

As there hasn't been much stated in the way of Irrelephant being scum, scum is probably already on this wagon.

If scum are off the wagon, they would probably consider it too risky to hammer.

Conclusion: There is likely 1 scum on and 1 scum off the wagon.


Overall conclusion: I know my own alignment, I town read irrelephant and Gamma. Hence the only person I don't think is town who is off the wagon is Gemini. Regardless of Irrelephant's alignment, I believe there to be 1 scum off the wagon. So Gemini must be scum.

From this, I could have also arrived at the conclusion that it paints Gamma and you as scum. However, since I town read both of you, it PoE's Gemini as the scum off wagon.

This theory is also naturally flawed since I do make a few assumptions (eg. your scum buddy wouldn't buss you if you were scum). But pretty much every theory has to have some assumptions and the assumptions I have made are things that I consider to be most probable.


Based on this theory, I should probably look into which players on your wagon are most likely to be scum as per this theory.

Another thing I've just taken a mental note of is that, since this town seems to very easily and quickly change its mind, I think that scum are less likely to buss as they know that their partner is probably only going to be run up for a while before being let off the hook. So I think there's suspicion in anyone who was originally scum reading someone but changed to town or null reading them at the point that this pattern in the town started to occur.

[mutantdevle]

Based on this theory, I should probably look into which players on your wagon are most likely to be scum as per this theory.

the worst fits this description.

That also caused me to look at the worst's voting history and, fun fact, the worst has been on

every

wagon that has reached L-1.

[mutantdevle]

That begs the question, would scum in this scenario be okay putting people to L-1 here as much as Worst does?

He wasn't always the L-1 vote, I didn't check when he joined each wagon. I just noticed that every wagon that reached L-1 he was on at some point.

[mutantdevle]

Yeh, I've voting there...

[mutantdevle]

mutant seems like he has a really high opinion of himself

Are you confusing me with you or what?...

[mutantdevle]

their scumread on me was something they were holding onto for strategic motivations

lolol I don't even scum read you dude. What I said about you was literally just what was in my mind at the time. I was documenting my thought process. What you're doing right now is scrutinising me for thinking...

[mutantdevle]

and the reaction in general did not feel like someone who thought I was potential scum

You're right because I currently don't.

I was just writing what was in my head and wrote it in a way where others could give an opinion on it lol.

[mutantdevle]

'omg you are just scumreading me for scumreading you'

Correction, I said you were/are scumreading me for

criticising

you. For daring to think of other possibilities.

[mutantdevle]

also town don't say that I should have been voting him and TW already but yeah

Why not?

Your reason for suddenly believing in me and the worst as a scum team is, in my opinion, quite small. For you to genuinely believe it, I think you would have had to have suspected it before this.

[mutantdevle]

sorry for being a shitty pseudo IC I guess.

Can someone explain exactly how your claim makes you a pseudo-IC? Preferably someone other than RC tbh.

I get why you're trying to say it. You think that, since the watcher is so weak, and then even weaker by the existence of your role (which we can say with confidence exists because the only alternative is a hell of a lucky guess), it must mean that you are town because it wouldn't make sense for scum to be able to weaken an already weak role. However, I don't accept that simply because I don't know the rest of the setup. And nor do you. For all we know, town could have power elsewhere. If massclaim reveals that, actually, town doesn't have any or little other power, then that's when I'll accept you as mechanically town. Until then, I'll remain cautious of you.

[mutantdevle]

town having power elsewhere is... sort of expected given the power level but given CFJ balances all his games to be stupidly scumsided and implo doesn't really know how to balance at all, well yeah.

you do realize my role is negative utility right

Would scum having a watcher enabler not make what we know of this setup to be scum sided?

And yes, I know that your role is negative utility. But scum could still have it. A trade-off of "if you lynch me then you lose a PR". That's entirely plausible in my opinion.

Of course, we've already lost our PR. So if you were scum, there'd be no mechanical penalty to lynching you anymore. But each PR could have been given to each alignment with the above purpose.

[mutantdevle]

Mutant did say they’d go on Irrelephant, so i am happy to stay on Mutant for the this day phase

Umm, when did I say I'd vote Irrelephant? I'm town reading Irrelephant and not willing to vote them at all. I want either Gemini or the worst lynched.

[mutantdevle]

Is mutant at L-1?
Intent to vote there at some point

I only have 2 votes.

[mutantdevle]

@mutant if you're town find a time NSG can be around so that we can talk about this game with each other via you as proxy

if that's not happening you're the lynch today no matter what.

Okay, but have you seen NSG's sitewide activity lately? It's not the best.

[mutantdevle]

kk nvm idc what nsg has to say hammer

Oh okay.

Also, I can't be hammered, I only have 2 votes. Additionally, you'd want to hammer without a claim? Okay. Do you really think I'm that scummy?

[mutantdevle]

Tbh I don't even understand what I've done that's so scummy in your eyes because I really don't see it.

[mutantdevle]

So I looked back at Prof Friday's and noticed that his most notable scum read was the worst.

That then caused me to look more into the worst's actions on day 1 and I noticed that this:

That also caused me to look at the worst's voting history and, fun fact, the worst has been on every wagon that has reached L-1.

Is incorrect, like really incorrect.

I was judging that statement based on wagons that reached 3 votes. Obviously, day 1 needed 4 votes to be L-1, not 3. So my apologies there.

That does make me question, however, that literally no one double checked this lol.

Irrelephant instantly voted the worst after this post and FL commented on whether scum would act like the worst does amongst other things.

But the thing I find most interesting is how the worst responded to this:

Open 733 I recently won as scum by lolhammering townies
a theme game I recently lost as scum I was told post-game I was locktown by vca but obvscum by day play

so I kinda vote as erratically as I want as either alignment still town tho

@mutant if you think Gem+I or Gem or I could be scum help me lynch Gem?

He kinda just accepts what I said to be true. Even though he should know that it isn't. My statement about the worst was blatantly incorrect there. Surely he'd know that right?

Instead of correcting, he immediately jumps into defence mode by trying to prove that doing that wouldn't be part of his scum meta whilst also simultaneously saying he'd vote erratically either way. Surely the proper defence here is "lol mutant, wtf, you wrong".

Idk if anyone else finds that scummy but for someone who said this:

announcing lack of intent to fight my lynch

I think he's overly defensive here and blissfully unaware of who and how he's been voting. I think it's a scum tell to have a lack of care for who you've voted.

VOTE: the worst

[mutantdevle]

Tbh I don't even understand what I've done that's so scummy in your eyes because I really don't see it.

Can I just point something out actually. My actions in this game make no sense at all coming from scum!me.

If you want to look at any other the 4 games I've been scum in (3 mafia, 1 cult leader) then you'll notice that in all of them I end up leading the team. I made most of the final decisions (with advice from my teammates of course) and submitted most of the actions. Therefore, you must accept that if I was scum then either I decided we should kill prof fridays OR my scum partner is someone who would take control over me. The only people I think are likely to have definitive say over myself in this game are RC and FL - Idk about Gamma and Irrelephant but I'd like to think I would still be the leader then.

Okay, so let's assume neither FL or RC are my scum partner and I decided the kill. My question to y'all is: why? What motive do I have to kill Prof Fridays? Sure there was the generic statement that they wouldn't be surprised if both scum were the people with under 5 posts. However, once I started posting, they didn't seem to have much criticism of my slot and even labelled me as the towniest null read. So, I wouldn't have made that kill being concerned about myself. So why would I make the kill? To protect the worst maybe? RC I feel like you probably think that the worst is my scum partner. If that were true, then sure, the motivation for the kill would be to protect him. But if the worst was my scum partner, then how do you explain my attitude towards my reads this game day?

I've set myself up in a position where I hard scum read 2 players, hard town read 2 players, and have 2 players I 'can't' read. The 2 I can't read have basically no chance of being lynched and I'd look incredibly scummy to suddenly jump on my town reads. So that leaves me with the option of either pushing Gemini or my scum buddy. Why the fuck would I do that? lol. Why would I allow myself to be in such a position? Especially since I started the day by reversing my scum read on Irrelephant. If I was scum, I would have kept my options open. I have every reason to vote Irrelephant right? I had voted him day 1 so it would make sense to be on his wagon day 2. But instead, I changed my mind on him. Why would I do that as scum? I've even had opportunity to hammer him. I've hammered as scum before and I'd do it again.

Like seriously RC, and anyone else who doubts my alignment, I'd urge you to go and look at all the scum PTs of my previous games. Understand what I prioritise as scum, what choices I make, what actions I think about, how I work with my teammates, and who you think I could possibly be scum with in this game. Then look at the nightkill, look and prof's reads, and then my reads, and just think about how it is pretty much impossible that I could be scum here.

[mutantdevle]

Spoiler: List of quotes and things I want the lazy duckling to talk about / respond to:

Oof.

I find this kill rather odd.

Scummy

How so?

I don’t recall any particular reason that he would have been considered a threat.

Umm, ducky, if you think that the night kill was "stupid as shit" then why did you call my post scummy?

I express the same confusion that you, and many others have done, for this nightkill. What was different about me?

@the worst, why did you make me post this if you're not going to respond to it?

As for the worst, I've seen something that's made me squint my eyes towards him. It's something that he keeps repeating and I'm sure that as the game goes on I'll be able to figure out if this is a scum tell.

the worst told me in a previous game that he was town in that his scum game was super obvious. So I guess that's what I'm trying to look for in him right now - obvious signs that he is scum. But it makes me worry that I'm letting him get away with slight infringements of his town meta because I believe his scum game will be

that

obvious. I've never played against ducky!scum though.

Lol, mutant is scum

Lol, why ducky?

Ducky I'd appreciate it if you responded to all my posts on the previous page that concern you and also explain why you now scum read me despite seemingly confidently town reading me yesterday.

town!mutant in particular is like, hilariously towny in his DEEPLY EARNEST efforts to sort players which I haven't felt in a single one of his posts yet

Really? You don't think my interactions with Gamma was sorting? You don't think my pressure on Irrelephant and then arriving on the opposite conclusion was sorting? You don't think my 808 - 812 concerning flavour leaf was sorting?

You insult me ducky.

As you know, I have a great deal of self-awareness. I know when I'm being scummy. I know when I'm being townie. Some of the stuff I've just listed above I was happy with because I felt like I was doing a good. The fact that you don't find a

single

one of those moments to be the quality that I felt it was is just insulting.

Rel why did you ignore this post and talk about stuff that isn't relevant

Why have you blatantly ignored every instance of me questioning your read on me?

you're still my fav mutated hellspawn dw dudd

Is that really all you have to say?

I'm busy w work today I'll put my thinking hat on later. You feel more nit picky than passionate tho

I'm busy w work today I'll put my thinking hat on later. You feel more nit picky than passionate tho

Dude, you have had plenty of opportunity to respond to my questions since they started at the start of day 2. Do you think it's outside of my town meta to follow up on the questions I ask?

I don't particularly think it's outside your meta as either alignment?

Then why are you criticising me for it when you acknowledge it is something I always do?

And you're taking exception at my playstyle for my whimsical posting lmao and I'm p sure you know that

I'm confused at what you mean by this?

As you can see, it's quite a lot that you have avoided answering from me. And going back through this and seeing just how much you have failed to answer makes me thing that you were the scum on the irrelephant wagon.

[mutantdevle]

Oh lol I thought the worst only had 1 vote.

[mutantdevle]

I'm cool with mass claiming. We're either going to get a soft guilty from it or we'll know that mafia chose to no-kill for whatever reason.

[mutantdevle]

And given what we know about the setup, I think a soft guilty is pretty much a hard guilty (unless, of course, we get some claims that disprove that).

[mutantdevle]

Like, it’s odd, but I’m actually leaning towards Gemeni and Mutant. Why would they conform together?

As long as you lynch Gemini first, I am happy with this analysis.

And my vote wasn't conforming with Gemini's. I had an independent scum read on the worst (which obviously I was wrong about). My prefered lynch would have been Gemini but there really isn't a lot I could do in the way of pushing that when RC was hard defending the slot.

[mutantdevle]

Actually, I’m pretty hard sold on Gemeni scum, to be honest.

This is MYLO. Mass claiming doesn’t hurt town in any shape form if we mislynch today because game will be over.

It is 100% only beneficial to mass claim today

Everything in this post is also my opinion.

[mutantdevle]

mutant being willing to place intent to hammer on my slot D2 after hard townreading me to open the day is scummy
mutant voting with gemini after repeatedly trying to get a lynch on gemini is scummy
atm I just have FL/mutant/gemini as the most likely teams in a circle and idk which is mislynch

I later said that my intent to hammer was motivated by a desire for you to claim and that I'd be unlikely to hammer you thereafter.

I don't consider my vote to have been 'with' Gemini. I would have prefered Gemini to be lynched yesterday but I couldn't get my way with that so compromised on my lesser scum read.


Tbh, I have no idea who could be scum besides Gemini. However, I get the feeling that it definitely has to be either Irrelephant or FL based on everyone else's reads.

[mutantdevle]

I guess that answers your post lol

[mutantdevle]

also after thinking about it massclaim is bad for town in the situation where an unclaimed PR allows for mylo to be mmaylo (mislynch &

maybe

lose)

Yeah, because most likely a PR gets killed and I'd rather that not happen considering it's still two mafs out there. I sense some fishing here. I'm working within a pool of Flavor, Gamma, & mutant. I feel like if RC was scum, we'd be seeing more drama and just confused bullshit from their slot. If it turns out that Irrelephant is scum, hats off to you then. I want to take Mutant out of that pool but it's obvious that my town reads need reevaluation so *sigh*

How would mamylo mean that it's bad for PRs to claim? The only scenario that could be bad for is if our only other PR is a protective. For every other PR, knowing everyone's roles would help to guide their own.

I'd also like to point out, I don't think protectives should ever claim their role - unless they're at L-1. I don't see the benefit to it. Their actions don't give us guilties, hence there's nothing to claim. All they can do for us is give us an extra day or 2. You could argue having them claim tells the other PRs not to target them, but that's just WIFOM as any scum could just claim a protective role.

[mutantdevle]

I mean, the only way it's mmaylo is if there's a protective. So that was kinda my point?

Roleblockers, jailkeepers, bulletproof modifiers? There's plenty of other roles and modifiers that can prevent kills other than protectives.

I must admit though that I am not well educated on what roles, modifiers, and combinations thereof are considered to be normal.

[mutantdevle]

I thought it was weird you said "as long as you lynch gemini first" to FL, since fmpov FL would then be the partner, but if you're reading me as gemini's partner I guess it makes sense?
If gemini's scum her partner seems to be bussing rn so that's... something. idk what yet (this is assuming RC and FL are both right that they would be able to catch scum!Gamma, which is kind of the main reason why I feel comfortable locktowning Gamma)

I don't currently read you as Gemini's partner, nor do I read FL as their partner. Their partner is something that I am yet to properly look into but it is something I plan to do.

And, ofc Gemini's partner is going to bus, Gemini is fucked. Like, I personally don't really see anyone other than Gemini as the lynch today.

[mutantdevle]

I know those roles exist? I'm just saying that if there's a protective, then that's the situation massclaim is maybe bad. Not really sure why you're arguing with me about that by saying "well there may or may not be a protective"??

I was going to respond to this but I've decided not to.

[mutantdevle]

no town is this nonchalant about everyone pushing him as scum with his top scumread.

Why do you make statements like this? "No town would do this" kind of statements. If you genuinely believed that then you'd be voting me instantly because according to such statement there would be no way I'm town. I get what you mean though, you're shading me for not seeming to care about the game state. But what I believe is that if we lynch Gemini, the scum reads on me don't matter because I'm 75% sure we've won the game if Gemini is scum. I'm not too concerned about the scum reads on me because as long as 1 scum is lynched before my death then my death will not have a negative impact on the game. In fact, Night 3 / day 4 I think is the perfect time for my death.

[mutantdevle]

Like honestly, I’m the scummiest one here, and the fact more people aren’t pushing me is making me nervous as well.

In hindsight and from scum POV, I feel I’m incredibly obvtown, but I don’t expect players who are town to see that.

I don't agree that you're the scummiest here. That's clearly Gemini. I'd actually go as far to say that you're one of the towniest players here but there's just a nagging thing about you that gives me, and I assume others, doubt that you may actually be really strong scum.

The more I read your posts, however, the more I like what you say. You've inspired a lot of my thought processes this game, primarily the one that resulted in me scum reading Gemini. I'd be comfortable fully trusting you if it wasn't for the fact that I really don't know who Gemini's partner is. I'm not at all interested in voting you any time soon though so I doubt you'll be the game losing mislynch.

[mutantdevle]

@Irrelephant - I think we have the exact same read on each other, and we’re both just waiting to decide what RC feels like pushing because we’ve plataeu’d and don’t know how to go about doing something so we’re just kinda hoping RC hits scum.

I honestly don't know why y'all gamble on RC this much. This reliance on him to hit right is unhealthy and a complete gamble. From my PoV, it's such a terrible idea. He was wrong about Ircher, I know he's wrong about me, and I strongly believe he is/was (not sure if he is still defending Gemini) wrong to defend Gemini yesterday - who should have been the lynch then. I don't see anything to suggest that RC knows what he is doing. Overconfidence doesn't mean he's always going to be right.

I don't think you and irrel should be at each other's throats, but I don't think that the only reason you shouldn't be is that RC doesn't think you should. If RC agrees with your opinions, then you can take that as a sign that you're right. But don't assume you're wrong if he doesn't.

[mutantdevle]

Profii actually brought that up first that he read it as “i’m Ready to bus my partner” when Mutant said that.

How much of this game has Proffi been reading? Because I've been pushing Gemini for quite a while. I've been "ready to bus my partner" since day 2.

[mutantdevle]

Okay this is what we're doing

If you are a PROTECTIVE role (doc or variant) and you targeted anyone besides me you are claiming with your target
if you are a STOPPING role (roleblocker or variant) and you targeted anyone besides MutantDevle you are claiming with your target
If you are jailkeeper who targeted anyone besides me you should claim since it's almost certainly a roleblock

If none of the above conditions are true, you just say pass

pass obviously

pass

I'm assuming you're setting this up as "if there are no claims then we lynch mutant"?

[mutantdevle]

if no one has any spicy info for us then protectives are on me, stoppers are on FL, we lynch mutantdevle

Oh yeah, kek.

[mutantdevle]

Gemeni’s obviously setting up a fake protective claim, so that doesn’t entirely work. It can to an extent, but i love me some loopy claiming paths.

If Gemini claimed doctor I probably wouldn't believe it.

[mutantdevle]

VOTE: Mutant

Dude, please just lynch Gemini first. Your whole approach towards the night is that you get a scum flip and I promise you that you don't get that with me. But you do get it with Gemini, practically everyone agrees on that...

Like please just read these PTs. They outline everything I think as scum, most notably who I'd night kill. I know that a lot of people try to appeal to meta as a defence but I really think the difference between my scum game and my game here are blatantly obvious. Read the PTs, and read my posts in those games if you must. I'm telling you that my actions this game are well beyond my scum meta.

[mutantdevle]

UNVOTE:

we have time.

making sure anyone who has somethign to say says it.

Who did you think you were voting?

[mutantdevle]

Overall conclusion: I know my own alignment, I town read irrelephant and Gamma. Hence the only person I don't think is town who is off the wagon is Gemini. Regardless of Irrelephant's alignment, I believe there to be 1 scum off the wagon. So Gemini must be scum.

VOTE: GeminiTwin12

this was the only reason you ever gave for why you were scumreading gemini, ftr.

And from my PoV I consider this to be strong. Simple wagon analysis using town reads to PoE the results. The only way I would consider this wrong is if my town reads are wrong. From what I can tell, you agree on those 2 town reads I list here (though I double checked using a CTRL+F and I don't think you have really said anything about irrel's alignment for quite a while, though, of course, that may be wrong).


FL eventually came to the same/similar conclusion:

My only issue is, why wouldn’t Mutant or Gemeni hammer you when you were at L-1? However, if I am to believe RC is town, that means my analysis with there being 0 scum on your wagon was correct, and even if RC was scum, the only teams I see being possible are

Gemeni-Mutant
Gemeni-Irrelephant
Gemeni-RC

No matter what, Gemeni is scum.

Gemeni also didn’t want to mass claim even though it’s MYLO.

On top of that, have you read Gemini's iso lately? There's not really anything of interest there at all.

[mutantdevle]

I'm curious, how much of that did FL actually write for you?

Wait what? You think FL is my partner now?

Like seriously, how?

Unless you think that argument I had with him earlier about him controlling the worst's posts was completely fabricated then I think it's pretty clear that if FL tried to say to me "hey, post this" then I really wouldn't.

If FL was my partner, why would he now be voting me if he had every reason to be pushing Gemini? If we were scum, we'd just need to lynch Gemini to win. He wouldn't have much reason to bus me unless he thought he'd survive the next day - which, from his posts, he clearly doesn't think he will.

This comment here feels to me as if you liked my recent posts but because you're so intent on me being scum you want to justify it as not actually being my thoughts.


RC, if Gemini is town then I really want you to explain why because I really don't see it. Gemini is confirmed scum to me and they should have died yesterday.

I also honestly don't understand why you scum read me. You started the game town reading but then when you decided Gemini is town you reevaluated on me and from there it's been like I'm confirmed scum to you. You've criticised my every step saying it makes me scum but never really explained how it makes me scummy. You've interpreted my words wrong so many times yet when explained how you've interpreted me wrong you've seemingly made no effort to reevaluate your statements about it. I just don't understand why you have this burning hatred towards me.

[mutantdevle]

like 7 people on a d1 wagon that flips town
you say 'oh there is probably scum on that wagon'
yes probability states that there is probably scum on that wagon but it doesn't mean you're saying anything meaningful
and the fact that you have extra information {your townreads) changes the probabilities of scum being on or off the wagon

but again I don't recall seeing you ever push something like that as town so hopefully you do in fact know better.

The conclusion isn't about the day 1 wagon. It's about the wagon that formed on Irrelephant. This meant there were 3 people on the wagon and 4 off of it including myself. Furthermore, the conclusion isn't about "there's probably scum on the wagon". It was about how the wagon was formed with the information that no hammer was given. Regardless of Irrelephant's alignment, there is evidence to suggest that Gemini is scum if I am to assume my town reads are correct.

And we've never played a game together so I don't understand your final statement. Unless you're trying to say you've meta dived me? If you have then you should really know how this game is nothing like my scum games. At all.

[mutantdevle]

VOTE: Gemini

I'm unlikely to move from this vote tbh. The only alternative I'm really feeling at the moment is a no lynch.

[mutantdevle]

Gemini is the only mislynch you guys are trying for and if lynching you first helps him lynch gemini why wouldn't he?
Furthermore: why would you feel the need to argue that you're not scum with flavor leaf if you were town

I was about to argue that since you scum read FL so much there is no chance he could win on his own and that we'd need to win today. But then I realised that even if we did lynch scum today we'd still be in mylo hence having Gemini lynched at any point would mean we would win. So it's fair enough I guess that from your PoV that we could be scum with that plan. But I'm telling you you're wrong.

And ofc course I'm going to argue I'm not scum with FL because I'm not scum... furthermore, I don't think FL is scum either so I will defend him from any push. If FL is scum then he'll be caught. I feel certain about that.

[mutantdevle]

the only thing I'm noting that seems extraordinary is that it looks like you're trying to pocket FL and I'm not quite sure if he set it up like that or if I'm wrong somewhere else

I can tell you where you're wrong. You're wrong in thinking we're a scum team. I'm not pocketing FL, I'm appealing to him. He's been sheeping you a lot and I do feel like the lynch today could end up on me. I've struggled to read FL all game and, upon reflection of some of his posts, I've lent towards town reading him (but still remaining cautious). With him and Irrelephant sheeping you all it will take is an impending deadline and bam I'm the lynch and we've lost the game.

He agrees with me on Gemini. His posts are what lead me to that conclusion in the first place. He also knows that you're wrong about myself and him being the scum team. I want him voting with me and not with you. Voting with me has a strong chance of winning the game. Voting with you means there's a really strong chance we've lost it (with the only saviour after my lynch being the doctor or any unclaimed roles).

[mutantdevle]

Originally I wrote you off as town because meh sounds reasonable and the tone is okay but then I realized that your content was actually awful and you kept taking scummy positions on things
like deathtunneling someone for several day phases because they were off a wagon but being happy to jump off to take the mislynch on TW

I wasn't death tunnelling Gemini. I vote parked them. And this only started last day phase "deathtunneling someone for several day phases" is such a hyperbolic representation of my actions...

And do you want to know the reason I jumped off and onto the TW lynch? You were single-handedly preventing me from lynching Gemini - you had criticised me previously for not being prepared to vote for my second highest scum read so I felt I needed to vote him to prove that I was fully prepared to do so. I wanted Gemini first before going after the worst. I was going to make a case today instead of yesterday where I'd point out how he isn't posting as much fluff as the previous games I've played with him. I even did the meta-research ahead of that and I believe that I found he posted less fluff in his scum games. It was your actions that lead me to change who I was voting for. I was happy where I was before you made me feel like needed to be on the worst to have any chance of not ending up as the lynch yesterday. And yes, I do accept responsibility for the worst's lynch. If I wasn't scum reading him at all then I wouldn't have helped to lynch him.

And you were scum reading me before any of that even occurred. "but then I realized that your content was actually awful and you kept taking scummy positions on things" What are you referring to here? What did I say? What stance did I have to make you think this?

[mutantdevle]

There was also the 'rc is scum because he should have been shot' then when the watcher was explained to you you stood by it even though your entire read centred around me being a good kill

For fuck's sake, I never said this and I've explained this to you at least twice.

I never said I scum read you for not being shot.

What I said was that I

considered the possibility

you could be scum based on the fact you haven't been shot and asked other's thoughts on this. Y'know, to see what they say?

I have never scum read you at a single point during this game.

The lowest you have been is null. Can you please just finally fucking understand this?

[mutantdevle]

What difference am I supposed to be noticing?

When I'm scum, I bullshit my way through everything. I take the game more seriously. I don't explain my thought process so well. You can ask me about absolutely any post I've made in this thread and I could probably tell you what was going through my mind at the time. I have made sure to document most of what I've been thinking throughout this game. I try to do that as scum, but I fail. When I'm scum, I'm naturally thinking about a scum agenda. So my posts are fake. My explanations are fake. I'm more passionate as town because I believe what I'm saying. Even when it's wrong. Sometimes, I can show passion as scum because I talk about something I genuinely believe but believe for scum reasons.

Out of all the games I've played on this site, this is the game I've been most vocal about what I'm thinking but I've got so much shit for it - mostly from you. There is no opinion I have that you could tell me you don't understand how I reached it if you've read all my posts. For you to suggest that comes from scum!me would be trying to say that I've suddenly learnt to completely fabricate the progression of my reads. If you look at my scum games, you'll know I can't do that. I just have reads - some I justify - some I don't. I use the cloak of "well just ask me or I'm not explaining". I don't recall doing that once in this game.

[mutantdevle]

even this whole meta argument I remember you doing the exact same thing in tit for tat when you got called out on how you did readslists as town vs scum

I'm betting you didn't know I saw that when you decided to make this day phase about your meta, did you?

So first of all, that meta-argument in that game was perfectly valid. I had changed how I did reads lists in all my games so it was easy to deflect that point of criticism. You may have noticed, but my meta in regards to reads lists has changed again. I don't really do them anymore and I've abandoned the concept of 'null' reads. If you were to try and call me scum for not posting reads lists in this game I'd just point you to my last 3 games where I didn't have any either.

And it's true, as scum, I do pull the meta-argument a fair bit. I have to, my playstyle is kinda scummy and it's an easy defence. But the difference is, I always take things that people are criticising me for and say "but I do that as town too!". This game, however, all I've ever said is "but that's not how I play as scum..." and, unlike my scum games, I haven't been using meta as a defence this entire game, have I? I only started using it when I realised how stupid the idea that I am scum is when you consider how I play scum and who the N1 kill was. I feel like, had I rolled scum this game, I'd have probably started throwing out the defence of "my playstyle is just scummy" the moment you started criticising me.

[mutantdevle]

I still don't see why y'all are scum reading me, I've yet to see any real reasons and I disagree from my pov. Scum is most likely the one pulling strings and giving bs reasons for their votes to coast along. I'm willing to vote between flavor or mutant today.

There's plenty of reason to scum read you lol. My main reason is just your position on the Irrelephant wagon. You could also take your post here as an example.

"giving bs reasons for their votes to coast along."
She says giving no reasons at all for anything and coasting along.

"I'm willing to vote" ... "mutant today."
But I don't really fit the description you've just given do I? I'm

trying

to pull strings in the sense that I'm trying to convince people of my perspective, but I'm hardly in control. And of all the things I've been criticised for, having BS reasons really isn't one of them. Everything I've done and said has been consistent. The debate is whether or not I've fabricated the entire process and don't actually believe in what I'm saying.

Also, it's odd that the 2 people you are willing to vote happen to be the only 2 people RC is willing to push.

Finally, I find your progression here to be odd from this post:

I'm working within a pool of Flavor, Gamma, & mutant. I feel like if RC was scum, we'd be seeing more drama and just confused bullshit from their slot. If it turns out that Irrelephant is scum, hats off to you then. I want to take Mutant out of that pool but it's obvious that my town reads need reevaluation so *sigh*

What happened to your scum read of gamma? He hasn't posted since then so how could your read possibly have changed? And you said you wanted to take me out of the pool but now your certain of me being scum. Why?



Pedit: Lol Rel why did you always tell me to do things just as I'm doing them

[mutantdevle]

@mutant I'd like to see you put in work to identify gemini's partner. gemini can't be solo scum and even if you're unsure who the partner is, putting in that work should reveal more to you about gemini's alignment, which can only be helpful for knowing you're pushing the right lynch and helping others see that

From a certain stance, one could say it would have to be you or FL. But you're my strongest town read and I find myself trusting FL more and more. RC is also a possibility. It would make sense given his attitude towards Gemini and he strikes me as a player who might hard defend his buddy as scum. However, given everything, I highly doubt that and I'd go so far as to say I town read RC. This then gives me a problem that I townread literally everyone but Gemini. That's what gives me the confidence that Gemini should definitely be today's lynch. However, that's obviously not an answer I'm going to settle with. I plan to analyse Gemini's entire voting history and reads in order to try and find out who her partner is likely to be but I keep getting distracted by arguing with RC :/

Obviously, that's my fault. I'm prioritising defending myself against RC over pushing Gemini. But that's because I

really

don't want to be lynched. My thought process right now is that I want to eliminate the possibility of me being put to L-1 before it gets there as I'm worried that scum might go for the risk of quick hammering. As soon as town is lynched, scum has the statistical advantage. They just have to shoot anyone other than who the doctor is protecting - and even then the doctor could be even night. Once I feel that I'm not at risk in the current game state I'll be more than willing to put all my effort into solving Gemini's partner. And to be honest, I already have put some effort towards it but I want to keep most of that to myself (and NSG) for now.

[mutantdevle]

If you're not scumreading RC though I'm not sure why I shouldn't sheep him - he's the conftowniest player rn.

Being town doesn't make you right though and that's why I'm not willing to sheep him. From my perspective and in my opinion, the only thing he has been correct about is the worst being town.

[mutantdevle]

Also I bolded a thing that again seems too strong a conclusion for you. In what way is it confirmed?

I have reasons to town read everyone else :/ I don't really have any reasons to town read Gemini and on top of that I have reasons to scum read her. So both my analysis of her posts and PoE is telling me she is scum. 'Confirmed scum' is definitely me being hyperbolic, but she's my strongest scum read by a very long shot.

[mutantdevle]

Okay but
1) what evidence? I still haven't seen you like quote anything of gemini's to discuss it or actually dissect what gemini is saying. I mean I guess my bad for giving scum advice here but it's true
2) this is a big if! No?

My "evidence" is simply their position on the irrelephant wagon and what I think scum would be likely to do. I should probably fully describe this at some point

@mutant

. (note to myself).

And I suppose it might be a big if since my reads in previous games are usually quite bad (that said, I once caught scum by tracking my strongest town read :3) but if I'm not assuming my town reads to be correct then what's the point in forming those reads in the first place?

[mutantdevle]

What do you mean saying you don't think FL is scum but if he is he'll be caught? Not by you, so..?

It's kinda complicated, but I feel that by tomorrow I will know whether or not I should be sheeping RC on FL.

[mutantdevle]

I'm not really interested in your survivalism (reads scummy btw) and I'm pretty sure I'm the fourth vote for you to die, so since I'm not going to vote you yet you've got time to lay out cases

My concern if you're town (this is a possibility in my head and I'm not ready to 100% sheep RC yet) is that if you can't find a partner for gemini you're misunderstanding the game state. If you scumread a player but they can't be *anyone's* partner then they're probably actually town working individually and both scum are in your blindspot. Given you voted tw who was your scumread and -surprise!- they flipped town I'd think this would be more of a worry for you.

I could see Gemini being scum with pretty much anyone here tbh which is, again, my problem. If Gemini flips town then my backup plan is that the PRs prevent another kill.

[mutantdevle]

I have reasons to town read everyone else :/ I don't really have any reasons to town read Gemini and on top of that I have reasons to scum read her.

I guess my point is I think it would be time well spent for you if town to give a nice strong case for every living player, their alignment, and why. Doesn't need to be super long or wallpost-y, just the strongest reasoning you have for everyone left. You keep referring to "reasons" that I mostly am not aware of coming from you.

pedit: Assuming your own townreads to be correct when you have not shown proof that you can correctly lynch scum is dangerous. You have gotten something wrong this game in tw's lynch. So you

should

actually assume you have something wrong & re-evaluate transparently (especially when your PoE leaves you with just one scum - something obviously incorrect unless you're scum). Any time someone says this to you you go "well I like my reads from last game day so I'm just gonna sheep past me" who is DEMONSTRABLY incorrect

You're right. I like the idea of that. Though I'm not sure I'm capable of not producing a wall post :3

I'll do it later though, I gtg for now. I hope 'future' me decides to do this instead of arguing against RC's inevitable responses.

[mutantdevle]

Actually, before I go: Irrelephant, who is your strongest town read may I ask?

[mutantdevle]

I haven't read anything and don't have any enthusiasm for this game for non-game related reasons so I'll do shit tomorrow.

[mutantdevle]

Okay, I'm catching up now.

[mutantdevle]

Also, How can I be scum with anyone here but you have "reasons" to only scumread me?

My point was that each person here has individual reasons they could be on a scum team with you. These reasons range in plausibility, but they are reasons none the less. It's my job to figure out which of these plausibilities are

probabilities.

[mutantdevle]

fmpov it's pretty obvious that mutant has hard committed to gemini and doesn't have a plan beyond that

You clearly don't know anything about me if you'd think I'd make one plan that had no room for improvising and have no sense of a backup plan.

[mutantdevle]

please leave gemini the fuck alone until then.

Why? I see no reason to town read Gemini at all.

It's clear that you're using some meta-knowledge of her to guide your read here, but you've never explained anything beyond "she wouldn't do that as scum" and other such statements. Why would or wouldn't she do things? What would she do instead?

If you think it would be impossible for me to reconsider my read on Gemini then you're dead wrong. I asked NSG about Gemini and had she said to me that I was stupid to be scum reading her then I would have dropped the read instantly and

really

looked into 2 other candidates for scum. But that's not what she told me. She, first of all, asked me if Gemini was lurking and I told her she was (Gemini had very low activity compared to everyone else at the time) and she said that if she was then she's probably scum. NSG also looked over Gemini's iso and came back inconclusive. She also stated that she's willing to read this entire thread in order to help me out if I get close to being lynched. So my game buddy has not given me any reason to doubt my read here and nor has you just trying to state she is town over and over again. That's not good enough. Assume I am town for 5 minutes and explain to me what I'm missing. Even if you won't do it for my sakes then do it for everyone else who is scum reading her and secure my lynch.

[mutantdevle]

If Mutant wasn't scum, who would the scumteam be?

Gemini and whoever isn't you or the doctor.

[mutantdevle]

I have a question

If Mutant wasn't scum, who would the scumteam be?

Why ask this? Thought you were pretty confident mutant was scum

I considered asking this same question but I just thought, "meh, he's probably just thinking about how if I was town and we did get lucky with the night actions again then he'd need to have a plan for what then" since I've been thinking similar things about Gemini.

[mutantdevle]

@mutant and @FL (and @gemini I guess let's be thorough) I also want your thoughts on Gamma's play since the start of D2

Okay, y'know what, I'm going to come clean about something since suspicion on Gamma has been growing.


Ever since I gained confidence in both RC and FL, I was very much aware that meant I town read everyone else other than Gemini and hence I was missing a scum partner. I've been saying in the thread that I have no idea who the partner could be and that I haven't really looked into it but that isn't actually true. Whilst it's true that I haven't actually looked back on posts from day 1 and 2 (for various irl reasons), the truth is that my immediate conclusion for Gemini's partner was Gamma. My town read on Gamma has only come from his posting on day 1. There's been nothing to back his alignment since then that I can recall. He was my strongest town read on day 1, however, upon reflection of my reads shortly after this day started (when I concluded that both RC and FL were townier than I was giving them credit for), I realised that there really wasn't much substance to my town read on Gamma. He was my weakest town read which PoEs to a scum read. I didn't want to out that I was suspicious of Gamma because I wanted him to feel comfortable in being universally town read because it would mean he'd feel no need to step up his content. My lynch would cause almost every player here to heavily reevaluate some of their beliefs and I was hoping that by allowing Gamma to coast along like he has it should be pretty clear to people like RC that he was likely to be scum this whole time. I also figured this to increase the chances the night kill would be prevented.

I also think Gamma and Gemini have some interesting associations (which I will go into more detail about later). I think you are seeing that too Irrelephant because you are asking Gemini to directly interact with Gamma.


I out this opinion now because I think RC asking the question of who the scum team would be assuming mutant!town has caused people to think about scum!Gamma earlier than my lynch. I read a few posts on before deciding to answer your question here and I can see that people have properly opened their minds to the idea of Gamma being scum, and, as a result, Gamma is no longer going to be as relaxed and is going to step up a gear. Thus, the reason for hiding this opinion is negated.

I want to elaborate on all my reads (as irrelephant suggested a couple of days ago) as well as flesh out my belief of a Gamma and Gemini scum team sometime real soon (I'd like to think tomorrow but no promises).

Personally, if Gemini isn't being lynched today, then Gamma should be. I'd still prefer Gemini though.

[mutantdevle]

I was also under the impression no one really doubted that.

The only problem I have with town reading you right now (aside from the fact that I know you're wrong about me) is that I don't trust whether or not my read of you is a legit town read or because it's just easier to town read you. Throughout the game, it's always frustrated me that saying anything even remotely negative about you promotes a negative backlash. You give off this aura of "I shouldn't be scum reading this guy" but not for the right reasons. I suppose that's what keeps you from being the lynch and it is an admittedly good survival tactic. The problem that causes is that everytime I find a genuine criticism of your play or your alignment, instead of pursuing the idea, I'm reluctant to say anything about it because I know it's just so much hard work and I'm not going to get anywhere with it. My main method of reading people is by interacting with them directly - I'm sure you can see that. If I find something bad about someone I want to question it and see how they respond. That's exactly what I did with Irrelephant. But every time I ever tried to do this with you you'd always flip my push on its head and attack me over it instead. So instead of attempting to read your responses my concerns, I've instead spent pretty much all of my interactions with you defending myself and my stances. It was only after I took a step back and read your interactions with others rather than your interactions with me that my null read of you started to become a town one. But the problem with all that is that is your inherent attitude of "it's a bad idea to criticise or scum read me" makes me paranoid that you are actually scum. Additionally, it also makes me unsure if the town read that I've settled on you with is just me wanting to town read you rather than actually town reading you. I feel that had you not responded to me aggressively every time I ever tried to engage you then I would have town read you much quicker and would now be much more comfortable with that read. For example, I think there is a case to be made that you make sense as a scum partner to Gemini. Had you been any other player in this thread I would have explored that possibility by talking about it and judging your reaction before stating my opinion that Gamma and Gemini are the scum team. But since I already know that your reaction would be (and possibly will be to this post) that I'm scum for even considering such possibility as well as the fact of the situation you have put me in, I don't really want to go anywhere near the idea to any full extent.

[mutantdevle]

lol everyone wants to lynch me and no reasons have been given

A fair few reasons have been given. None of those reasons have been properly explained yet, sure. But reasons have been given.

Don't worry about that though. I fully intend to explain my reasons at a later date

[mutantdevle]

Off I should have been prodded by now. Catching up.

[mutantdevle]

Wow, only 2 pages to catch up on. I guess this game has stagnated a bit.

[mutantdevle]

No offence to NSG or anyone else but my posting is dependent upon how much time I have to actually do so, if busy or not - not because of my alignment. And NSG should know that there's no way I'm going to pick being scum over town.

@Mutant, please do share your thoughts on how you think Me/Gamma have interesting interactions, I need to see your thought process here.

Patience my child. I shall provide things for you to respond to soon.

[mutantdevle]

I was starting to freak out that we don’t have time to make sense of this game but we have over a week, phew

Ummm can we talk more about Gamma/Flavor? I feel like it makes a lot of sense and everyone just kind of ignored it when I said it

I was starting to freak out that we don’t have time to make sense of this game but we have over a week, phew

Ummm can we talk more about Gamma/Flavor? I feel like it makes a lot of sense and everyone just kind of ignored it when I said it

No, it makes sense. I’m just town is all.

What's the case on you being scum with Gamma? I guess it makes sense but it's not one of the options I'd put much credit to.

[mutantdevle]

Also, there’s zero reason for me as scum to turn on Gamma like I was pushing the past page or so, though, so that’s a rather weak reach you’re seemingly pushing.

I mean, this is exactly why I'd find it hard to believe FL and Gamma are scum together. FL is scum reading both me and Gemini and, since we've been the main 2 candidates for most of this day, he could have

easily

pushed either of us for a win.

[mutantdevle]

I still think I think it's Flavor/Gamma
@mutant, thoughts?
@RC?

I don't really see FL as scum at this point in the game tbh and even if he was I doubt it would be with Gamma.

Why exactly do you suspect these two together?

[mutantdevle]

UNVOTE:
Shoshin and I agree that it's definitely Gamma/mutant

unless

FL is maybe scum
So... figure that out gemini/RC, and if FL is town then it feels solved fmpov

So you think it's either me and Gamma or FL and Gamma yet I'm the one you want to vote?

:(

You're explanation better be that whatever case your about to make is that the evidence is stronger towards me than the other two otherwise I might have to put an apostrophe in the middle of that sad face.

[mutantdevle]

Townreads Gamma (a read he has never wavered on) and refers to Ircher with the phrase "scum twitch" which he will later backtrack. It's his first stated scumread, and yet he ends up the only player other than me off the Ircher lynch.

I mean, I have wavered on it... a few pages ago I stated how I scum read Gamma and that I have done for a while but chose not to say anything about it.

Also, the only reason I wasn't on the Ircher wagon was because my activity was low at the time. I'm fairly certain I would have been on it had I been there (which I say on day 2).

[mutantdevle]

More pushing of a scumread on Ircher that he drops and retcons later

I disagree that my post here was 'pushing a scum read'. It was 'shading someone who made a shitty post'.

[mutantdevle]

Here is where he starts retconning his scumread of Ircher

Ircher never met my threshold of a scum read. I was suspicious of him enough to favour him as a lynch, certainly. But he was never a scum read.

What I said here was a denial of a scum read but not a denial of suspicion. Because that was the truth of my opinion. Out of that pool of 4, Ircher was who I'd consider most likely to be scum.

[mutantdevle]

I want Mutant and so does Shoshin. why

How much of what you're saying about me is your opinion and how much of it is Shoshin's? How much of this game has Shoshin read and how well does Shoshin actually know me?

I don't know if this changes in your next post, but what I've read about your case on me and Gamma so far is essentially that you believe my read on Ircher was dodgy (which, admittedly, it kinda was since I didn't really commit to it) and myself and Gamma have some interactions that tie us together (most of which I'd argue are based on Gamma's actions rather than my own). So it currently confuses me why you'd favour me as the lynch over Gamma here.

[mutantdevle]

1) Subtle defense of Gamma's choice to townread mutant
2) Who says this to the player they're tunneling as scum?
3) More Ircher retconning - maybe to avoid being seen as playing too similarly to Gamma?

1) Fair enough, I can see how you could form that conclusion if you scum read the both of us.
2) Someone who accepts and acknowledges the possibility that they are wrong at all times.
3) How is this retconning? I never labelled Ircher as definitely scum. Calling someone scummy and saying they give scum vibes is not the same as calling someone outright scum. If people interpreted what I said about Ircher as me scum reading him they were wrong to do so and everytime someone mentioned me scum reading Ircher I felt the need to correct them that they interpreted me wrong. In hindsight, I probably should have more heavily said "you've interpreted me wrong" instead of just repeating "I never scum read him", but the fact remains that at no point did I fully scum read him. I was suspicious of him and would have preferred him as the lynch out of everyone else and probably would have been on the wagon had my activity not flaked - but none of that is the same as scum reading him. (My point being to all this that I haven't retconned anything).

[mutantdevle]

1) Like what?
2) Bolding this as an early instance of multiple references by mutant to his own "progression" - mutant has really held to the idea that the fact he can point to his own clear progression is a towntell, but I don't think town is ever so careful. But because he thinks it earns him townpoints, he plants the idea here that this is what will happen.
3) Impressive AtE to get me to unvote him but also a bizarre thing to say to someone you think is lying

1) Do you want me to state all the reasons I was suspicious of Ircher and then explain why I don't think these suspicions were enough to warrant a full scum read? Because I can't remember much at all about my day 1 play but I can read back over it if you want me to.

2) Not rushing my reads and not forcing myself to hold opinions is a policy I've adopted in all my recent games because I believe doing so was bad for me. Before this, as town I'd be basically making up some reads because oftentimes I don't know what to think. That's obviously not a good thing. The reason I've referenced my progression of reads so much this game is that I truly believe that I'm not capable of explaining my thoughts in such a level of detail as this as scum because as scum I'd have to make up my opinions, make up how I got those opinions, and make up my thought processes. It's easy to document everything you're thinking when you're not making it all up.

3) Regardless of what I think of your alignment, I'd want you to stop voting me would I not? I also don't just simply ignore the people I'm pushing. I still want them to understand my point of view because I acknowledge that there's every chance my opinion may change and it enables them to be able to explain to me why I am wrong if I am. It's how you stop people from just OMGUS reading you for the rest of the game. Think about it, if can't see a genuine reason for why someone is pushing you then you're going to assume there is some other motive than that they actually believe you are scum. On the other hand, if you know why someone is voting you then you can acknowledge that they aren't just scum pushing you and can see that you are town that's just wrong. When I'm wrong, I like to be told why I'm wrong. Part of that deal is allowing your pushes to still be in a position to conversate with you. In regards to your read on me, I can see why you'd be scum reading me and that allows me to conversate with you and explain why you're wrong. The only thing I don't understand about your push on me is why you wouldn't want Gamma lynched first since, from what I've read so far, us being the scum team makes up the foundations of your case for scum!me with a few things I've done backing that up. Finally, I told you on day 2 that I didn't genuinely think you were lying but just believed it to be a possibility so pushed you over it to gauge the probability of that possibility.

[mutantdevle]

Around here mutant just kind of drops his scumread of me, like he forgot, and "echoes" my post. He doesn't say his read of me changed, though, and he leaves his vote until day end.

Come on, be fair, this is primarily because my activity flaked.

[mutantdevle]

Just gonna leave this here.

I defend the logic behind that statement but I definitely do regret basically just ignoring Gamma from that point on.

[mutantdevle]

"When I mislynch it isn't my fault"
"You can't PoE down to me and my scum partner that's... bad"

It annoys me that people use my forewarnings that my reads are statistically bad as a way of accusing me of not taking credit for any mislynch I'm involved in. Because sure, it's a valid criticism. But it never happens that way. I've never ever used my bad reads as an excuse for a mislynch as either alignment and I always accept responsibility. I don't use my bad reads as an excuse, but I still feel it's something that needs to be mentioned so that people can understand that they shouldn't just sheep me on my opinions and so that they can also understand why I'm still willing to work with my scum reads.

I want to argue against your second statement but I can't remember why I thought trying to PoE read me at that point was such a ludicrous statement :/

[mutantdevle]

His explanation is "I wanted to flip you green to prove that Flavor Leaf is scum"

He retcons his reasoning to "I wouldn't have actually hammered, I just wanted you to claim" (explaining nothing about how this helps him read Flavor Leaf, which he previously said was central to giving intent)

Ugh, yeah. I can see why you'd think this is me retconning my opinion.

The only way I can really explain this is that do you ever have that thing where you believe 2 things simultaneously even though they are slightly contradictory? What I mean by this is, I wasn't thinking about actually hammering when I was offering to place intent. The first reason I give, is what I was thinking at the time I placed intent for hammer. The second thing I say is how I predict things would have progressed. I'm fairly certain I would have backed out of actually hammering once you had claimed despite still believing the first thing. I mean, you said so yourself, it was a poor reason for wanting to lynch you at that point yet it's what I believed. And I'm sure I wouldn't have gone through with the hammer when the moment came to reflect on why I'd be placing the vote.

[mutantdevle]

Calling this out as another retcon

That was more a mistake on my part than it was a retcon. I'd been solidly town reading you and unwilling to vote you for a good while at that point so I had forgotten about how I was willing to sheep FL on hammering you. This was the perfect moment for someone to tell me that I was wrong. But no one did. Had someone been like "lol, mutant, you're wrong, you did so here" I obviously wouldn't have tried claiming I was never willing to vote you because I clearly was.